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A Maglev Train System for Florida?
Artifice_Eternity writes "For 20 years, citizens of Florida have been pushing for high-speed rail, as an alternative to the state's ever-growing, yet ever-crowded highways. A previous plan, the Florida Overland eXpress (FOX), was
killed by governor Jeb Bush in 1998. The voters responded by passing a referendum to require the building of a "bullet train," starting by November 2003.
The new
Florida High Speed Rail Authority is focusing first on the busy Miami-Orlando and Tampa-Orlando corridors, but eventually hopes to serve the whole state.
And they are seriously considering maglev technology! If the Florida HSR system did use maglev, it would be the largest one in the world. (Right now, maglev is in use on test tracks in
Germany and Japan, with a 30-kilometer system under construction in Shanghai.)
However, I like this humorous proposal best: it takes the idea of a "bullet train" literally, using the Jules Verne approach to propulsion."
Would be nice if they would run it along I4 (which they probably will, since it's the main artery from Tampa to Orlando)... traffic there is horrible.
Assuming it's not too expensive to ride, I would see it getting alot of business from us college students in Orlando who have family along the routes... gas isn't exactly cheap for a 400 mile drive one way
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
The logistics of supplying power to such a maglev system would be slightly insane. Florida has daily rain, coupled with the heat, that will corrode coils and short stuff out. Not to mention the hurricanes.
Oh yeah, let's not forget the couple 'o fusion reactors that'll be needed to power the sucker.
Hopefully they'll give the over-65 generation free passes, get them off the roads.
They'll have to modify the train cars to accommodate the elderly-- by adding a turn blinker that is on for the entire length of the trip.
~Philly
Disney abondoned in thoughts of running a monorail between it's property and the Orlando airport when they realized it would be way to slow. They supported the maglev high speed train project that was to run between the airport and EPCOT (with connecting service to Disney hotels via bus and monorail) right up until the point that a stop at Universal/I-drive was also added to the plans. Disney got real uncooperative at that point. Their goal is to keep visitors (and their $$$) on Disney property.
Nonsense. I remember signing the petition to have the issue put on the ballot. I remember voting on it. I remember it being passed.
Here in FL, with enough signatures, any issue (as long as it deals with a single point) can be put on the ballot. Any issue. This was one of them. It wasn't like big money bought the signatures and bought the voters.
Burn Hollywood Burn
I voted against this in 2000.
Simply put: Florida doesn't have the money. I'm not sure if the old rail route between Miami and Tampa is still operational (I took it a couple of times, years ago), but it was more than adequate. It wasn't very popular, though, IIRC.
The reason the referendum passed? It was vaguely worded and there was virtually no publicity given to it. I remember seeing it on the ballot, thinking "Hmm.. that would be pretty neat," and damn near punching it. And then I realized that it would be simply another bloated fund for our local politicos to exploit -- another holy grail for South Florida's thriving embezzlement industry. No thanks.
I hope Jeb lays the smack down again.
ummm...does this mean these Disney "Petition-Signer Super-Saver" coupons are no good?
Let me design your website. www.navalswebdesigns.webhop.biz
I'm a Florida voter, too, and I voted against this. First, it's horribly expensive. Wasn't the estimated cost something like several billion dollars? There are huge budget battles going on in Tallahassee right now because there isn't enough money even to run the schools, much less build a multi-billion dollar bullet train to shuttle more tourists to Disney.
Second, and this is the real kicker...it wasn't a referendum. It was a Constitutional amendment. That's right, it's now a piece of the Florida state Constitution that the government MUST build a high-speed rail system. Isn't that just a little ridiculous? They couldn't get a bill to mandate this past the governer, so the backers for this boondoggle (again, mostly Disney, the corporations who get the contract to build it, and the legislators they bought off) pulled and end-around and ammended the Florida state constitution for this. Damn.
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
"Off-duty troopers, hired at $30 an hour, picked motorists at random and directed them to pull off the interstate into a rest stop, where Palm Pilot- toting interviewers waited. "
That's how florida's high-speed rail authority recently choose to gauge public interest in riding the high speed train.
I was going to moderate this story, but I hate it when folks living in south Florida think they are the whole state. There are some people left that live north of I-4 and the turnpike and see money taken out of their pocket for a project only benefiting those that live on or south of it. If you don't live south of Ocala, naturally I'll eat my own shorts, but big money didn't have to buy the signatures- there are plenty enough ignorant people living here to naively think a high-speed rail would benefit them despite their living in say, Tallahassee.
I will say, you are certainly correct in your second paragraph, I just don't think you can convince me that because it was introduced via petition that certain mouse-eared companies had nothing to do with sponsoring said petition.
Jacksonville has a monorail system that is not used becuase it currently only benefits one small portion of a very spread-out city, and the voters won't throw any more money at it to expand the service because of the perception that it won't benefit them- I guess I just don't want to see that happen in this case. Traveling in south florida is a pain, what with all the tolls and everything, anything to relieve that would be nice.
Be a moderator, not a brick.
Only several billion dollars?
That is cheap.
The West-side Light Rail in Portland cost several billion dollars.
This is my two cents about Government funded work.
For every penny the government spends on a project like this, someone is getting work, a job, etc.
For the Light Rail in Portland, there are local survey teams, earthmovers, concreate people, electrical workers, artists, contractors all getting to work. The trains come from the Czech Republic, so we get to throw some money at them that should have gone there during the Marshall Plan.
It's not like welfare where the money goes into a blackhole.
And I think now that it's a good time for a state government like Florida's to spend some money on infrastructure, good lord they need it.
It's the perfect place for high speed trains. Throw up a couple new nuke plants for the power.
monorail, Monorail, MONORAIL!!!
Who do you think you are, Steve Ballmer?
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Florida's population is exploding; contrary to the popular image, it's less a state of retirees than it is a state of immigrants (from within the US and from abroad) and of young families.
The traffic problems have gotten awful, and not for lack of highways and 6-lane through roads. The bigger problem is much of Florida's other defining characteristic: fifty years of unregulated sprawl. South Florida has the same problems Los Angeles is finally starting to address. Office space, commerce and residential areas are kept separate, spread out and decentralized, and both coasts are hemmed in by the Everglades. Once the rather limited 20-miles strips of land along the coasts are built on, it just gets denser and denser, and that's what's happening. But unlike New York, San Francisco, Paris, London, Chicago, Moscow, Tokyo, Sao Paulo, Hong Kong or [insert viable city here], the "downtowns" aren't as dominant as they should be, and even in the cities, many neighborhoods are car-oriented.
As in L.A., this makes intercity train service a lot less useful. What good is it if only one in four business travelers can get off a train within a quick local transit or cab ride of their destination? Is a commuter train system going to get a lot of passengers if most people have to drive a half hour in gridlock just to get to a station--and there's no end station near their workplace? (Ask Southeast Florida commuters: the current north-south-only Tri-Rail is enthusiastically embraced by people who live close to one station and work close to another, but shunned by everyone else.)
There are a lot of people in the Palm Beach-Miami corridor, but they're relatively spread out and they commute in every possible direction. Intercity rail is an important part of what the state's metro areas need, but it's just not going to make real inroads as an alternative to crowded highways until the "last mile" solutions are also in place. More mixed-use planning and zoning will help by letting people live and work with less need for cars, as it's been helping LA and Atlanta, but that will be a long time in coming. In the meantime, workplaces are so scattered and decentralized that buses take too long to get anyone anywhere useful, and extensive commuter and light rail would have to be practically everywhere, with lots of parallel east-west and north-south lines and express tracks in order to work.
On its own, this high-speed rail network may well only do what its detractors think it will do: ferry families from Florida's coastal cities to Disney World for weekend trips.
For every penny the government spends on a project like this, someone is getting work, a job, etc.
;-)
So if it costs several billion dollars, that's several trillion new jobs? Guess those 65+ year old retirees best start having sex like bunnies...
I have a theory, and the theory is mine.
Public transportation is a wonderful thing.
Everyone will use it.
The number of cars on roads will decrease.
The amount of air pollution will decrease.
Then I can drive my car in peace.
-- Terry
best rail system I've came across is the Swiss one... absolutely phenomenal, can get from every tiny village to any other tiny village in the country in like 6 hours max... sweet :-)
This post needs to be modded up because it brings a great deal of prospective to the Florida issue. In central Florida, the biggest power broker is the Mouse. If the Mouse doesn't like it, it won't happen in Orlando. Disney Transportation has contemplated the issue of getting people from MCO to LBV including the Maglev project. However, I just don't ever see the project coming to Florida. In much the same way Amtrak never had any usefulness outside the NE corridor, these high-speed rail projects will the do the same. If you want a quick way to Miami from Orlando, jump on the turnpike for a three hour drive. As for I-4 traffic, the worst I ever saw when I lived in Orlando was the rubbernecking tourists trying to figure which exit to get off to get to the Magic Kingdom (please don't follow the large signs mounted). Want real traffic...come to Houston and I will take you up on HWY 59 or I-10 (Katy Freeway) in the afternoon. Then you will see what real traffic is like.
/me gets off my soapbox
BTW, Houston is building a rail system thanks to Lee Brown, of course it runs from the Astrodome, where nobody lives to Main Street where you have to walk 10 blocks to get to work. Yea Rail!
I want one thing, a rail system that has multiple stops no farther then 3 to 4 blocks from where I want to get off and no more then 5-10 minute commute to get on. Of course, politics gets in the way until everyone's hand is in the cookie jar and what's left is a system nobody will use.
A monorail for Springfield!!!!
In Portland they seem to have a very hard time building rail systems. The opposition say its no good, under-used, and they have the right to drive their car anyhow - without paying the high taxes (doesn't anyone think about how these roads were built or maintained?).
Anyhoo - every time I've been on their local (and short) train lines they have around here its always very crowded - especially when I had a job and commuted to work in it. Usually standing room only. I've found in my travels all over this world that there's one constant - in the bigger cities cars are a major problem. I've never seen any big city where everyone can drive downtown, park their car, go to work and drive home. In Tokyo for instance if you buy a car you need to have a note from a police officer that says you have a place to park it overnight (I wish they'd do that here too). I'm not talking about people who have to drive - but I'd be willing to bet well over 75% of everyone who does could use an alternative, simply because they had the opportunity to reduce highway load if they did use some alternative form of transport - but its just easier (sometimes) to drive.
For the most part the only reason you could drive (in the case of convience) is because someone else did take the bus or ride the train.
I don't like the way this Florida referendum was handled (I mean the only reason they wrote it into the constitution was because its much harder to recall), but sooner or later most cities in the US are going to have to take transit seriously.
Ummm...it's not a logical fallacy. First, on principle, I'm against the idea of government funded schools. The point is, if you know anything about Florida politics, is that for the past two years we've had huge budget shortfalls. The primary cuts have been in education, and there really isn't a day that goes by that there isn't a story in the State & Local section of my newspaper about the state budget, and, primarily, its impact on education. I'm not saying we should put all our money into education before building a maglev, but I am saying that if the situation is so bad that even education is getting cut, which, in general, politicians won't touch, then we sure don't have the money for this train.
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
The problem isn't getting between Tampa and Orlando. The problem is getting from the rail station to where you need to go. Mass transit in Florida is nearly worthless to anyone except the poor or the martyrs. I can drive to work in 15 minutes, but to take a bus I have to walk/bike 3 miles, switch buses twice, then walk another mile. It's 2 hours each way.
I'm sure there will be Disney and hotel shuttles though.
The solution (if you refuse to finance and offer incentives for mass transit) is better roads. We still have plenty of clover-style on/off-ramps where onramp traffic has to cross over offramp traffic. We have way too short merge lanes at critical spots. Crap, we have a right-angle bend on a two-lane offramp that many drivers take at 50mph+. A gas tanker flipped and burned there recently, trashing the overpass for months. Do these engineers drive?
If we'd just yank the license of anyone with a 3" tailpipe on a Civic and blondes with BMWs, I'd shave 2 hours off my commute time every week.
I guess you dont know. They do: Look at autopr0n.com for "That Old Guy". (wince)
'k, I think I'll take your word on that one...
"The voters responded by passing a referendum to require the building of a "bullet train," starting by November 2003. The new Florida High Speed Rail Authority is focusing first on the busy Miami-Orlando and Tampa-Orlando corridors, but eventually hopes to serve the whole state."
The voters didn't respond. The people of the five largest cities voted to make everyone pay for their bullet train.
And the referendum was not about serving the whole state -- it was about serving the five largest metro areas.
I live in a town less than 5 minutes from I4 where this train is going to be. It won't stop in my town (over 40,000 people), but I'll be paying for it anyway.
This is about one group of people voting themselves everyone's money. Hurray. Democracy at work.
Choice 1 was for Maglev.
Choice 2 was against.
Still, someone managed to vote for Pat Buchanon.
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
For every penny the government spends on a project like this, someone is getting work, a job, etc.
This is such a common myth. Where does the money come from to pay for this? From taxpayers. What would most taxpayers do with this money if they were allowed to keep it? Spend it -- "someone wouldbe getting work, a job, etc."
The effect of taxes is to merely change the kind of work that will be done. And this work is for the benefit of the five largest cities and not for the rest of the state.
Taxes don't create jobs, they merely change the kind of jobs that will be done.
Your theory of public transportation is a game of statistics. I am supposed to be convinced that, at a particular population density, people will start using it.
The problem with this theory is that when I want to go home at 9:37 PM, I want to *go home* at 9:37 PM, not walk 4 blocks, wait 15 minutes for a bus, ride for a while, get off, wait another 15 minutes to transfer to another bus, ride for another while, get off, and walk another 4 blocks.
Public transportation is always a great idea *for other people, not for you*.
I've discussed this in letters with Governor Gray Davis of California. The only real way to get a lot of people onto public transportation is to make it fully subsidized.
The only way to get people to take public transportation is to make the marginal cost of taking it less than the marginal cost of not taking it. Making it free would drastically increase ridership. But there will still be people who will not take it, even if you were to pay them.
-- Terry
Nonsense. I remember signing the petition to have the issue put on the ballot. I remember voting on it. I remember it being passed.
Marge: But Main Street's still all cracked and broken...
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
In order for trains (high speed or maglev) to work, they'd better build a parking lot put walmart, target lot to shame.
I'm wondering how much distance a 150 mph train achieves its top speed. It's safe to assume we only have one station in every major cities, which are miles and miles of sprawl. Take a taxi from my place to airport cost me $50, and that's only one way.
I love trains, I do, but billions of dollars are better spent on some good city planning first. And like a famous quote from a Florida legislator: "We should pay every teacher in this state at least $60,000". I'll vote for that.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
I live in Tampa, FL and many residents believe this train referendum was rammed through by special interests. This would be a huge and useless boondoggle like Boston's Big Dig.
Sure there's major congestion on the highways. The problem is that there is piss-poor mass transport in the cities. Take the train from Tampa to Orlando, and then rent a car or pay big $$$ for a taxi?
High probable of fraud and tax money waste.
- Andrew in Tampa
Mag-lev! Wow! Neato! Yeah, but shouldn't we shore up our existing commuting rail system before spending this kinda cash? You know, for once, I'd like to see a clean, well kept light rail system, not one that looks like it's about ready to fall apart like the ones here in Chicago. Or New York. And such a joy it is to wait down in those pits too. My first experience with light rail was in Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore. I got back here to the US and my first thought was "What a joke! This sucks!" and "Damn, it feels like the car is going to derail at anytime!" Let's bring what we have at least up into the 80's before waste more money on these toys.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Do you seriously think that they will then extend the rail network to provide service to Okechoobie, Fla.?
Face it, there'll be coverage to the three largest cities, and maybe a line to the capital.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
Actually, this would make it worse. Apparently it is part of the state constitution now so scaring people over security will just get them spending more money to harden it, armor the cars, etc.
Complain to the FAA. If they would get off their butt and get an ATC system that could handle flying cars, you'd have one pretty quick.
Currently, the ATC system that can handle flying cars is projected to deploy somewhere between 2015 and 2020.
For some reason, it appears that those of you not in the seed cities have a hard time realizing that projects need to begin somewhere.
We know projects have to begin somewhere. The problem is that if you don't live in a seed city, or in one of the five major metro areas, you won't see a benefit -- you'll being paying for it, of course.
Why can't you just admit that you like the idea of making everyone pay for your trips to Orlando?
When we open up the flood gates of immigration so that we have a similar population density, rail will make equal sense. Of course since we have 1/10th the population density of Europe currently, that will give us a population of 2.8 billion people in these United States.
Somehow, I doubt that highly developed rail systems based on an equivalent economic rationale as the EU rail system is coming anytime soon.
Objection 1: "It will only serve a few cities." Actually, Fla. HSR WILL serve the whole state when the system is built out. It makes sense to build lines to serve the 5 largest metro areas first -- they contain the most potential riders. But if you read my story, you'll see a link to a map that basically includes rail lines covering the whole state, following the paths of the major interstate highways (I-10, I-4, I-95, I-75) and the Fla. Turnpike. This means stations in Pensacola, Tallahassee, Jacksonville, Gainesville, Ocala, Daytona, St. Augustine, Titusville, Fort Myers, Naples, and elsewhere.
Objection 2 seems to be the cost of the system. Well, the Florida HSR site says they are exploring a "DBMF" option, which stands for Design, Build, Maintain and Finance. In other words, a public-private partnership would build and run (and pay for) the system. You let private firms finance a major part of the system, and then let them make their money back by running it for profit. For an example, look at NYC: many people don't realize that 2/3 of its subway lines were actually built and run by private companies (tho they are now owned by the gov't.). A privately run train service would probably be more efficient anyway (look at how bad Amtrak service is... it's a gov't. monopoly, so they don't have to try).
Objection 3: not enough public transit WITHIN cities. This, sadly, is true. Florida needs to rectify this. I know there are serious efforts being made in southeast Florida (Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Palm Beach), but they've got a long way to go. Still, trains are very long-term investments (think decades and even centuries). Eventually Fla.'s major population centers will HAVE to offer better local transit systems, even if it doesn't happen for 15 or 20 years. And then the intercity HSR service will fully come into its own. Also, people and businesses will start to view locations near the HSR stations as desirable, and development patterns will change. You have to think long-term, something Americans seem to be bad at (and Floridians worst of all).
In any case, the status quo -- more and more roads, which just promote more and more traffic -- is unacceptable. Someone needs to have the vision to change this. Those who fear such a change are, wittingly or unwittingly, choosing the path that will lead to paving the entire state with asphalt and concrete. It's time to realize this is not working.
If you build it, they WILL come.
I lived in Florida for 20 years, and traveled b/t Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Tampa/St. Pete, Orlando, Gainesville, Tallahassee, and Ft. Myers all the time -- probably 6-8 times a year. I would have killed to be able to take a train, instead of driving. It's a 6-hour drive from Miami to Gainesville (which I made frequently during college)... and that's when there's no traffic. On holiday weekends, add an hour or three to that.
It did get passed by a majority of voters. Those who didn't vote for it or didn't read their ballot carefully have only themselves to blame.
The leaders weren't leading, so the people did, and now the leaders must follow.
Huh what? This was a damn referendum, it was voted for by the people. How about taking responsibility for your own actions? How about accepting a majority vote?
The solution (if you refuse to finance and offer incentives for mass transit) is better roads.
Maybe, but that assumes that you have no problem to finance better roads.
If we'd just yank the license of anyone with a 3" tailpipe on a Civic and blondes with BMWs, I'd shave 2 hours off my commute time every week.
Uhm... I guess we could achieve the same with any other group we don't like. Maybe yank the license from all blacks. Or from everybody who is under 27?
That would be an ObSimpsonsQuote..
In my opinion, if they are going to build a high-speed rail system in Florida, I would do the following:
1. Build it with the fastest trainsets available and make it capable of topping out at 375 km/h (233 mph). The technology is there to build such a train using conventional steel rail systems.
2. The first line should be Jacksonville south to Orlando and then south to Miami. The second line is from Jacksonville west to Pensacola.
3. The service has to be frequent--that means at least 15 minutes between trains.
4. Establish train stations near airports. This means the line has to go near the main airports of Jacksonville, Orlando, Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale and Miami. In the Orlando area, you want a station that is very close or on Disney World property.
Which means they would be off your streets. If you are not willing to pay for that...
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of Simpson references in Maglev stories.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Ah, you see the apparent contradiction between the comprehensive planning that creates unlivable sprawl and the fact that the planning itself comes from government.
Once you look at the history of postwar new-suburban development as it really happened, the two reconcile pretty well. Yep, the zoning plans that created decentralized, traffic-clogged suburbs came from municipal governments--but the municipal governments literally came from the developers. Putting aside the charming histories of the big cities "founded" by railroad moguls and land speculators, the most extreme examples come in the suburbs built out of nothing in the last forty years: a developer would devise a master plan for a town-sized piece of property in an unincorporated area, they'd have six of their employees move into houses built on the land, and those six people and their families would vote to incorporate a city made up entirely of people tied to the development.
Six employees, literally. No exaggeration.
Bush is against it? Then it must be a good idea.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
I've got to disagree with you. As a Florida resident who loves to travel around the state, I'd be extremely interested in a service where I didn't have to worry about bringing my car, especially, if it could get me there much faster than I could drive myself. If the train beats the drive by an order of magnitude (e.g. it's twice as fast) then it will have users.
Well obviously you need a local transportation network as well. But I think you're being naive to assume that the current situation will be the permanent situation. If a bullet train arrives, it will be a major catalyst for corporations and entreprenuers to set up better city transit. I think if they get this going, when I pull into Tampa I will have no problem hailing a cab by the train station. None whatsoever. Once there are a critical mas of people in the city without cars, it will foster better in-city transit like buses.
I mean, did you think that New York or London built mass transit overnight one day?
The West-side Light Rail in Portland cost several billion dollars.
The thing that irks me about the westside rail is that a lot of the stations over here are just plain stupid. They have *huge* park and ride facilities most of which are never even half full. Quetama is the only one that usually fills up, 185th never has above 60% filled. It does this all the way out to downtown Hillsboro for the most part. And coffee shops built in? It seems that the max really is a liability running from the west side. I'd ride the max, if it weren't for all the crazy fucks that ride it along with me. Just not worth it, I try to get to work (in Downtown) and stand a 50/50 chance for some bum going to skidmore to try to start shit with me, or watch them harass some poor 14 year old girls.
They need to have a real ticketing system, not this honor mickey mouse shit that we have on the max.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
No, it's still true. Concentrating the dollars has no positive economic that the disparate impact of the individual dollars wouldn't have.
In fact, it has the negative effect that any large concentration of money in the hand of politicians has (waste, inefficiency and outright graft).
You're right about the tourist dollars; however, those dollars would have likely been spent for tourist businesses in Florida.
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
an interconnected rickshaw system, but all I got was this lousy Maglev train. That's right, I'M a Florida voter!
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Taxes don't create jobs, they merely change the kind of jobs that will be done.
On top of that, they tend to also fund projects whose labor is wasted. I've seen too many politically-motivated tax-payer-funded projects to feel comfortable with the government's ability to spend wisely overall. Also, government projects often attract the lower crust of employees. There are certainly notable exceptions, but I'd say they are a small percentage of all government-funded projects.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin