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Genome

No One You Know writes "I just finished reading an excellent book by Matt Ridley called Genome. The book is divided into 23 chapters, one for each chromosome. The author picks a significant gene from each chromosome to focus on, and explores a myriad of topics such as why we age, how life forms assemble themselves into full-grown adults starting from a blob of cells, how we form and store new memories, and how gene therapy works. I found the book very well-written, highly interesting, and quite accessible. Anyone that is interested in knowing more about themselves and all life on Earth would do themselves a service to read it." Read on below for the remainder of NOYK's review. Genome author Matt Ridley pages 352 publisher Harper-Collins rating Excellent reviewer No One You Know ISBN 0060932902 summary The author selects one gene from each chromosome, and uses it to explain who we are and where we came from.

One thing Ridley discusses is how closely related humans are to many other species that seem quite unrelated. We share 99% of our genetic code with chimpanzees, which is more or less common knowledge. But we are also very similar to many other organisms, such as fruit flies. By comparing the genomes of different life forms, we can tell not only what creatures (and plants) we are related to, but historically when the genome split. Ridley explores possible explanations and ramifications of this knowledge (it's pretty hard to refute evolution with the facts he presents).

One of my favourite chapters in the book deals with self-assembly. How in God's green Earth do we develop into full-grown adults with a trillion cells, having started out as a tiny blob of a handful of cells? There are some really surprising discoveries here, such as the fact that the genes that lay out the general physical form of the body are laid out in order -- the gene for the head first, then the upper body, etc., ending with the rear. Another interesting fact is that the genes that define the front and back of a fruit fly also exist in humans, but are switched around. So the gene that defines the back of a fruit fly defines the front of a human, and vice versa. This means that at some point in our evolutionary history, one creature decided to walk on its front, and another decided to walk on its back.

Another chapter deals with why we age. Less than 50 cell divisions are required for us to grow into adults, but throughout life cell divisions are necessary for maintenance and repair. Each cell contains a complete copy of the genome; when a cell divides, it must make another copy for the new cell. However, the very beginning and end of each chromosome are not copied. In order to not lose important data, each chromosome has a long string of junk at the beginning and end. But with each cell division, a little more of the junk is lost and you get closer to cutting off the real data in the middle. In this way we've got a kind of built-in obsolescence; we are designed to live just long enough to bear and rear children.

One chapter is devoted to memory: how we create new memories and how we store them. Also discussed is the difference between instinct and learned knowledge, and why we need both. It turns out that language is a genetic thing; we have an instinctive capacity for language and we pick it up very easily as we develop. But then why is the vocabulary of a language not in our genes? Vocabulary is learned knowledge because if it weren't, it would be difficult for us to incorporate new words since they wouldn't be instinctive. Basically, as I understand it, static knowledge is often recorded in our genes (therefore becoming instinct), while dynamic knowledge must be learned.

Ridley dedicates one chapter to gene therapy and modification: how it works and the ethical concerns. I was curious as to how injecting a new or repaired gene into the cell of an organism could affect anything but that one cell. It turns out there are enzymes that will replicate the new DNA strand and go around distributing it to other cells -- a virus! Geneticists use the code from a virus that causes replication (leaving the bad stuff of course) and combine it with the DNA they want to repair or replace in an animal. They then "infect" the animal with the new code.

In short, I found Matt Ridley's "Genome" a fascinating book. The mapping of the human genome was a huge milestone in human history, and Ridley does an excellent job of using it to explain in layman's terms who and what we are. What we don't know about the genome dwarfs what we do know of course, and Ridley makes no bones about that point. But the bit that we do know just makes you sit back in awe. Ridley has a talent for translating his own enthusiasm for the subject to the written word.

You can purchase Genome from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

130 comments

  1. GOD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GOD is into open source.

    Provided you can figure out what it means.

    1. Re:GOD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GOD = nickname of a leet hacker.

    2. Re:GOD by thasmudyan · · Score: 1

      GOD is into open source. Provided you can figure out what it means.

      Actually life is pretty closed source because genetic code is really BINARY machine code that is executed within the cell's nucleus and mitochondria. Genetic research actually revolves a lot around reverse engineering the binaries back to a human-readable form, and the API (protein behavior and interaction) is pretty badly documented too.

    3. Re:GOD by thesadmac · · Score: 1

      Probably used assembley language. I mean he is a l33t guy after all.

    4. Re:GOD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually since DNA has 4 parts wouldn't it be quadratic machine code?

    5. Re:GOD by WhiplashII · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, it obvious that he used a high-level language - Look at the obvious code reuse between animals.

      Making a human with Fruit Fly DNA? Now that's OO design!

      --
      while (sig==sig) sig=!sig;
    6. Re:GOD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i would not use the phrase "badly documented" when referring to protein behavior/interactions -- in that i would not consider the presently known information to be "bad" -- but there is certainly a lack there of in the grand scheme of things

    7. Re:GOD by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Actually life is pretty closed source because genetic code is really BINARY machine code

      Technically, DNA would be closer to source code than binary. It's copied to mRNA, then big chunks of the mRNA sequence are removed (comments, perhaps?). The mRNA is then processed into proteins that either execute, or are used as parts of other executables (shared libraries!)

    8. Re:GOD by Rubyflame · · Score: 1

      But then he'd have to rewrite humans if he wanted to put them in a universe running on a different type of processor.

      --

      All it takes is nukes and nerves.
    9. Re:GOD by H*(BZ_2)-Module · · Score: 1

      No. Quadratic is having to do with a square. The word you are looking for is quaternary which means consisting of four.

  2. No wonder... by yeoua · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Another interesting fact is that the genes that define the front and back of a fruit fly also exist in humans, but are switched around. So the gene that defines the back of a fruit fly defines the front of a human, and vice versa. This means that at some point in our evolutionary history, one creature decided to walk on its front, and another decided to walk on its back."

    So would that mean that the fly's equivalent of a head is a human's equivalent of a butt? No wonder flies are so ugly.

    On the same note... one wonders if this same backwards thing applies to the pointy hair boss species of the human race.

    1. Re:No wonder... by tanveer1979 · · Score: 2

      Not exactly, Walking is more of a behavioral thing.
      And the reason why small changes in the gentic code produce such drastic changes is that the information coefficent of genetic code is high.
      What may seem to a layperson as one little change here and there is actually very very big in terms of nature.
      "On the same note... one wonders if this same backwards thing applies to the pointy hair boss species of the human race.
      Not exactly! But its funny ;-)

      --
      My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
      FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
    2. Re:No wonder... by Otter · · Score: 1
      So would that mean that the fly's equivalent of a head is a human's equivalent of a butt?

      No, it's a different axis -- the back of the fly's head is the equivalent of the front of the human's head. (Dorsal/ventral axis, not anterior/posterior.)

      Speaking _extremely_ loosely, of course. ;-)

    3. Re:No wonder... by Conanymous+Award · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the Axis of Evil.

      The antenna of the fly are the equivalent of a terrorist's beard.

    4. Re:No wonder... by glwtta · · Score: 2

      oh, is the "back" gene this one or this one by any chance?

      --
      sic transit gloria mundi
  3. Refuting Evolution by SanLouBlues · · Score: 0, Troll

    Ridley explores possible explanations and ramifications of this knowledge (it's pretty hard to refute evolution with the facts he presents).

    I assume you mean "supporting creationism" as the equivalent of refuting evolution. Those who support creationism do so with nothing but faith and holy books as their evidence. Thus debate on such a provincial logical point (rather than faith as a whole) with such folks is pretty much a dead end. Stop baiting people.

    1. Re:Refuting Evolution by EatHam · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At the risk of turning this in to an all-out flame war, I personally do not see any problem with combining creationism with evolution. The only thing that creation provides that evolution does not is a starting point and a way to explain the *IMHO* total leap of faith that random chance could produce beings with even the complexity of a bacterium.

      There's nothing in my faith or bible that tells me to throw logic to the window.

    2. Re:Refuting Evolution by imta11 · · Score: 1

      As a human do you believe that the difference between "God's" Will and Self Assembly is discernable? In other words, even if you saw the two side by side, how would you determine intelligent design from evoloution?

      Maybe it is fun to discuss these things. Bait Away.

    3. Re:Refuting Evolution by EatHam · · Score: 1

      If you assume that the laws of physics do apply in all scenarios, self assembly would look more like entropy, and "God"'s will would look more like what we have now.

      Throw the second law of thermodynamics together with the law of conservation of energy, and I'm thinking that the leap of faith that it takes to believe that random chance "created" the earth is far greater than the leap of faith it takes me to believe that someone gave it a push.

    4. Re:Refuting Evolution by CommieLib · · Score: 5, Informative
      Again, at the risk of starting a flame war...

      Full disclosure: I consider myself a deeply religious person. I attend church twice a week, read the Bible, and send my children to a private religious school (at great expense).

      However, I find Creationism utter nonsense. I do believe that God created man, but through the process of evolution. The evidence for evolution is so utterly overwhelming that Christians are left with two alternatives:

      • God created man through the process of evolution, or
      • God created man through the process literally described in the Bible and left the Earth scatted with damning evidence to the contrary, as some bizarre test of faith.

        Whenever this subject comes up with the faithful, I try to change minds gently, and remember a quote (from whom I don't remember):

        "A frantic orthodoxy is not rooted in faith, but in doubt."

      --
      If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
    5. Re:Refuting Evolution by elmegil · · Score: 2

      EatHam pointed out that he saw no problem combining creationism & evolution. I think he may be confusing the idea that God created everything with the actual hard creationism that you're talking about. It's hard sometimes to be precise because the hard creationists have done a lot to make it seem like their view is the only one consistent with God's creation, even though you and others clearly demonstrate that is not the case.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    6. Re:Refuting Evolution by SquadBoy · · Score: 1

      Damn straight brother. Thanks for the quote I'm sure I'll use that one in the near future. :)

      --

      Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
    7. Re:Refuting Evolution by jackb_guppy · · Score: 1

      They are the same... Creationism: A "fireside story" simplifing Evolution.

      They are different... Creationism: Defining God's joke on Mankind. Making Man think that Evolution is true.

      Relign of century have been trying to prove the bible stories as true. Looking at DNA is one more method to of proof.

      Evolution was a theory based prior on theories and examples, from "why are sea shells on top of mountians?" to "why do men look different, if all are created in God's image".

      We know the mountains are getting taller as the crust of earth slowly shifts and press ridges form. We know that this rising is slow, so getting a sea bed of sea shells 7,000+ feet into air will take a LONG LONG time.

      We find in the DNA that all men are (~) the same. DNA drifts slow over time as well - so at one time we were all in the same image.

      So Evolution and Creationism support each other if you remove the TIME issue.

      Now if the world was created some 5k years ago, then all the information showing it was longer, was great set dressing - hence the JOKE.

      Now if world's clock is ALOT longer, then Creationism shows a simplified view of the Evolution making it easier to understand and giving man a referance guide to understand world around them - hence "fire side story".

      Remember the bible was written by men, with God's help. So why not help his children unstand and learn about the world around them?

    8. Re:Refuting Evolution by enden · · Score: 1

      Sadly, your second bullet is the theory most hardcore fundamentalists stick with.

      It's surprising how many people will say with a straight face that fossils of dinosaurs and other creatures were merely planted there by Satan to cause people to be skeptical of a literal interpretation of the first few verses of the Bible. The same goes for the carbon-14 dating of rocks and fossils that puts the age of the earth at well over 6,000 years. Apparently the Prince of Darkness will do anything and everything (including bending the Creator's own universal laws) to fool all those ungodly, Reason-worshipping humanists.

    9. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      You just proved your statement wrong by yourself..

      Throw the second law of thermodynamics together with the law of conservation of energy, and I'm thinking that the leap of faith that it takes to believe that random chance "created" the earth is far greater than the leap of faith it takes me to believe that someone gave it a push.

      "someone" as in "God"? That would tend to say that God is a physical being, something "touchable" (for lack of a better term). In that aspect, what created this "touchable" God? Why cannot "God" and "Goddess" and "Marklar" mean the same thing.. Be a "capsule" for the terms and feelings behind Nature, Emotion, those things? If the people who believe in Faith, and the people who believe in Evolution can agree on the question I just asked, then we're really talking about the same thing. Only arguing about symantecs. (spelling, I'm a geek..)

      When I say God, or Goddess, or Marklar, I am really placing a visual/marker on the group of emotions I am caring/thinking about in that moment in time. I think that is Human nature. Sure, "God" created the world/universe/all life, but by "God" I mean, Nature and scientific evolution. But I can still say "God". That's what I think most people are forgetting about.. "God" is not something "touchable", not someone but rather a wrapper for the collection of emotions, thoughts, seasons, and events we attribute to daily life.

      Just my $0.02USD

    10. Re:Refuting Evolution by haa...jesus+christ · · Score: 2, Informative

      "A frantic orthodoxy is not rooted in faith, but in doubt." can be attributed to Reinhold Niebuhr. FYI, 'not' should read 'never', but then I'm nitpicking.

    11. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      How about my $0.02? (For lazyness and to keep it short, I'll post the url)

      http://books.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=37829&ci d=4054729

    12. Re:Refuting Evolution by EatHam · · Score: 1

      Depends on how you define "God".

      The reason I put "someone" in there rather than "something" is that I like most humans who describe "God" tend to anthropomorphosize Him/Her/whatever. You could just as easily substitute "God" for "someone" in the above quote. The Bible tends to refer to God as "I Am" meaning that God exists outside of the constraints of time or that He has always existed. And "Marklar" is clearly a set of people, a language, and almost the entire contents of that language and not a substitute for the word "God". Go back and study Southpark some more! :-)

    13. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      Marklar is everything. I think it was just the first word that came to my head. ;)

      I agree with how you define "God", I've always had the question of "what created whatever created.." Unless I remind myself that I can define "God" however I feel happy defining it. For the record, I am not Christian, but Pagan. Therefore "Mother Earth" is my "God". I find the Christian religion interesting, but I prefer to onlook and study. Various other religions as well, if anything from a "people" or "user" perspective, not historical. Anyway, I ramble.. The Bible refers to God as "I Am", meaning that god exists outside of the constraints of time..., what exists outside of God? Can there be "nothing" (or maybe I mean "that's it"). One can only go so small, maybe they can only go so large..

    14. Re:Refuting Evolution by EatHam · · Score: 1

      ...unless I remind myself that I can define "God" however I feel happy defining it

      Here's where it gets interesting. Does the way you percieve things or the way you want them to be affect in any way the actuality of that thing? Basically what we're discussing here is the nature of our baseline - Absolute Truth if you will. It follows along the lines of "I believe that Heaven exists, so for me it does" or "I believe that there is no Hell so there isn't". Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not arguing for or against the existance of Heaven or Hell (personally I believe in both, but for the purposes of discussion, that is immaterial) - I am, however, arguing that regardless of what you believe, or how you want to define them, they are (or are not) what they are.

      I know the following is a rediculous example, but it's the best I can come up with while typing with one hand and eating a sandwich with the other while writing code on the other computer, so bear with me :-) Say you're standing in the middle of the street. You are deaf and blind. There's a cement truck barreling toward you at 65mph. Your seeing and hearing friend yells for you to get out of the way - there's a truck coming at you! That truck, however, does not exist for you - you cannot see, hear, or touch it (yet). You don't believe him and stay put. Does the truck magically go away because you don't believe in it?

    15. Re:Refuting Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Full disclosure: I consider myself a deeply religious person. I attend church twice a week, read the Bible, and send my children to a private religious school (at great expense).

      Then you're a fucking moron, you're saying.

      It sure wasn't atheists who drove those planes into the WTC.

    16. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      First "bullet": Here's where it gets interesting. Does the way you percieve things or the way you want them to be affect in any way the actuality of that thing?

      Before reading your deaf-blind-pinball-wizard example below, here was my thought:

      On a purly mythical/out of my hands/bigger than I am standpoint, if I don't believe in something it may as well not exist. But like you pointed out.. that thought process and discussion is very unending. There are many many things out there that we have no knowledge of. Like you said, that doesn't mean that they don't exist. But nobody can say that it means that they do. ;) So I guess everybody with religous "God exists" and "God does not exist" arguments can boil the conversation down to what we just discussed and all the wars can end. Sadly, it's Human nature to be stubborn. :(

      Bullet two: Ham Sandwich?

      Bullet three: If I am deaf and blind, I probably shouldn't be in the street alone. ;)

    17. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      Then again, "God" can exist and does because I define it as I did above. "God" may not exist to me via your definition. That is up to each person to decide.. Which is why I think we're both on the same page, or at least within the same paragraph. If I define "God" as something that does not exist, such as.. an uncrashable version of Windows, then "God" may never exist, unless that comes along some day... (yeah, right ! ;))

      But if people can say "God exists to you because of what you believe", then we can all get along. I really dislike people who say "God doesn't exist, God is really just Christian crap" then go on to say they worship God and Goddesses. They're talking about the same thing, just using your definition of God to gain self esteem because they can offend you. :(

    18. Re:Refuting Evolution by EatHam · · Score: 1

      RE: Bullet One: You are correct. There are certain things that are unprovable - for instance, the existance (or non-existance) of God. Like the Big Bang. Like that the Universe wasn't created five seconds ago and you with a memory (think about that one for a while).

      Bullet two: Turkey on a roll with mustard and lettuce.

      Bullet three: You are deaf and blind, and therefore cannot determine where the sidewalk ends and the street begins. In addition, your seeing eye chimpanzee ran off and began humping a parked car.

    19. Re:Refuting Evolution by imta11 · · Score: 1

      I enjoy these arguments. Perhaps instead of the deaf guy example we should consider colors as a function of our perception. The values and names that we assign to colors exist onl in our own counsciounesses. (can't spell) We can measure the value of the wavelength and agree that blue is blue and red is red, but internally it may be different. Maybe that is why some people like "ugly" colors. basically, you can't prove to me that what I percieve as the color blue is the same counsciouness effect as you.

    20. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      The universe could not even exist, we could be floating thought and all have memories to each our own. Sort of "lucid dream" like. Hrm, Matrix/Vanilla Sky like...

      They have seeing eye chimps? And all along I thought he was just to help get chicks.

    21. Re:Refuting Evolution by camken · · Score: 1

      IT'S THE Q!!!

      --
      Moo.
    22. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Yet people think they can prove it and have wars that last thousands of years and take the lives of many people "getting back" at other people. Sigh. Speaking of colors, I've always said that maybe "color blind" is in the eyes of other beholders.. If I raise a child to think that the color of a "red light" is "blue, then orange, then black", will the child be colorblind?

      Clinical colorblindness isn't exactly that, but the ability (or lack thereof) to see the differences between colors or any color at all (B&W).

      If we measure the peak-to-peak value of the wavelengths, how will we know we're all measuring the same thing? We all have different ways to measure! Inches, feet, seconds, Marklar. It's all a big big circle, this "Human mind" is.

    23. Re:Refuting Evolution by EatHam · · Score: 1

      Being slightly colorblind myself, I can tell you that what you describe is color ignorance.

      I am fully aware that I can't prove the existance of God any more than someone else can disprove it. However, I also know that the downside risk of my perspective is substantially smaller than the downside risk of the people who don't share it. That said, "fire insurance" is a pretty bad reason to adopt a world view...

    24. Re:Refuting Evolution by mother_superius · · Score: 1

      uh... but for someone to create, where does the creator come from? I find a "creator" just as mysterious as a first organism and how it came to be. For me, it's easier to see life happening by chance than there to be a creator merely existing forever in the past and forever in the future.

    25. Re:Refuting Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your question is *exactly* the point. Is there a way to differentiate 'design' from 'evolution'? If you think there is not, then you are extremely naive, in my opinion.

      The ouput from an airplane factory is an airplane.

      If you put all the pieces of an airplane in a big pile, let a tornado sweep them, and look at the result, would you be able to differentiate this from an airplane? I think so...

    26. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      hehe. I agree with you, I like our thread as well. Fire insurance is only needed if you believe in fire. Personally, I think "Hell" is anything you create it to be. If you live the life of a model Human, (The mold being the Bible, et atl) then your "Hell" is fairly nonexistant. But if you take it apon yourself to lie, cheat, steal, murder, and do other unjust harm, your hell is well deserved and brought on by yourself. "Hell" being the consiquences (sp) of your actions, all across the board. Make sense? (Not asking if you believe, but I'm asking if I made sense in my definition.. ;))

      Ahh, yes.. "color ignorance", thank you for defining that for me, I didn't even make that connection.

    27. Re:Refuting Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carbon-14 testing assumes a closed system and is flawed in that respect. Go check out www.answersingenesis.org. They have several articles where they took sample of lava flows where the exact age of the rock is known and the radiometric dating methods still got it wrong by millions of years. It is been my experience that most people don't actually do any research on the sound bites that they offer up as proof of evolution.

    28. Re:Refuting Evolution by EatHam · · Score: 1

      You do make sense in your definition, but if you do accept the concept of absolute truth, then what you believe Hell to be is insignificant. Furthermore, the entire point of the Bible is that there is nothing you can do in and of yourself to affect your final destination (Heaven/Hell), but that you must place your faith in God to do that.

      One can only wonder - if I'm color blind, will the fires of Hell be orange, red, or crimson?

    29. Re:Refuting Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You assume that 'creationism' (to which I do not subscribe) is the only alternative to 'evolution'.

      The field of astromony is facinating. One of the facinating elements of this field is the diversity of opinion. When ever a new piece of evidence is introduced into this field, dozens if not hundreds of opinions are rendered to explain this evidence. Have you seen the recent discussions that the speed of light may not be constant?

      On the other hand, the field of evolutionary science consists of monolithic dogma. Try offering an /alternate/ explanation of how the eye ball evolved and you get the standard dogmatic response, "Oh, that has already been explained hundreds of times before!". There is no place for differing opinions.

      If the field of astonomy reflects a truely scientific mindset, the field of evolutionary science reflects the opposite and I would say it is closer to religion than science?

      Why is this?

    30. Re:Refuting Evolution by barawn · · Score: 2

      OK, short, short answer. Heh.

      People who believe in literal creationism (that is, literal "English" creationism - literally the process that is described in the English translation of the Bible) are taking explanations way out of context.

      They should also go to Egypt and look for bread (made of grain) to fall from heaven on their heads (rather than manna, which is real), and far more amusingly, only forgive each other 490 times. After that, screw you, jackass. :)

      The problem is that we are far, far removed from the people who read the original version of the Bible. We don't know the colloquialisms. Even scholars don't know. Even the original versions of the Bible (Hebrew) may be very far off from the true original, because we simply do not have the colloquial context. (For example: we use the word "heart" in multiple contexts, and it's difficult to discern which version we mean. There's no reason to believe that they didn't have similar concepts as well.)

      I honestly wonder when people start supporting creationism. I really want one of them to explain to me what happened. What do they REALLY think happened? Genesis's account is vague - clear it up. Exactly how did God separate the Earth from the heavens? Basically, if you keep saying "How?" "How?" "How?" to someone espousing creationism, you'll get one of two answers. "He just did" or "I don't know." The response to the first is "that's not an answer", and the response to the second is "That's what I'm trying to figure out."

      Here's the thing: if you can't reconcile Genesis with science in your head, you're not thinking enough. It's easy - it really is. All science does is stick a bunch of answers where Genesis is vague.

      Religions answers "Who". Science answers "How". Don't people ever take journalism classes?

    31. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      One can only hope they wouldn't be clear, that'd make for more pain than one would expect.

      Placing faith in God, like everything else, holds different meanings. You make sense, but I know some people do exactly as you speak, others who place faith in "karma" or "the laws of three" and still some who just let what ever happens, happen. In all aspects, if you choose unwisly, you will feel the personally gained neglect from it. Same, but inverse, applies to "Good" decisions. I don't feel that one can say that all life decisions are placed in the hands of the Bible's God (not to be a derotgatory (sp) term, but simple ownership of the definition) and still have a consience. If anything, a consience is the voice of reason between "right" and "wrong" and "left". If decisions were up to God, you would not need that part of the day-to-day thought process. Or, maybe God has given you those "roads to take" out of the many he could have given you, therefore, no matter *what* road you take, you're going down a path chosen by God. Simply because he picked the choices out of the lot of 'em. Then again, does the phrase "God has given you those "roads to take" out of the many he could have given you" mean "Your past decisions have filtered down your current decisions to these in front of you..". Which begs the question, when does God leave us to ourselves? Never? Or after we take our first walking steps? Or did God leave "us" after Adam and Eve and from that point on, the steps and paths the Human race took were decided by your parents, and your parent's parents, etc..

    32. Re:Refuting Evolution by jechoe · · Score: 1

      oh goddammit!

      --
      Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
    33. Re:Refuting Evolution by barawn · · Score: 2

      ... actually, it assumes a flowing system, for carbon dating life with C14. Carbon-14 dating assumes that there's continual carbon exchange, and at some point the carbon exchange stopped. For a living creature, that's when it died, as it stopped breathing.

      Problems in C14 dating don't make the method wrong, they make the implementation in certain aspects wrong. That's like declaring that Wien's model of the blackbody curve is wrong in the exponential tail simply because it gets the early part wrong. C14 is very accurate if you know when the carbon exchange stopped, and that'll put the age of certain things very very old.

      Most of us do the research. The problem is with people who claim that a method is flawed because they found one example where it (supposedly) doesn't work. Overwhelming evidence that supports it is enough to convince logical people.

    34. Re:Refuting Evolution by enden · · Score: 1

      Could you post some links to secular references that refute the accuracy Carbon-14 dating?

      Not that I'm saying Answers in Genesis can't be right, but they seem more interested in molding any and all scientific data to fit their inerrantist view of the Genesis creation than in acknowledging anything that might contradict it.

    35. Re:Refuting Evolution by barawn · · Score: 2

      Depends on your definition of "evolution" and "creationism". If you define "evolution" as the change over time of the Earth into what it is today, and "creationism" as the instantaneous creation of the Earth at some time in history, then yes, they are the direct opposites of each other, and to negate one proves the other.

      You're talking about specifics of evolution (which is scientific theory) rather than the evolution mindset (which is a mindset). Debate the specifics of evolution (theory) and you'll get dogmatic response, unless you go after something which is still an open question, from the community's point of view. You can't really debate a mindset, though.

      And astronomy/physics is extremely dogmatic! All science is. Try offering an alternative explanation other than the Big Bang, and we'll look at you like you're crazy (because you probably are - you can SEE the Big Bang if you look at the sky in microwave). You're talking about "offering an alternative explanation for something that was considered over and done with." In any science, you'll get a sharp response in that area. The other end, where you're talking about non-constancy of physical constants, that's ALWAYS been considered an open possibility. You can find papers on that back over a hundred years.

      Doubt me on the dogmatic nature of astronomy and physics? Look for papers on alternative answers to the Higgs boson, and see if you find papers which reference them and support them. You won't. Even though the Higgs boson hasn't been found, and there're still possibilities if it can't be found, they aren't being looked at.

    36. Re:Refuting Evolution by bigsexyjoe · · Score: 1

      This is kind of a pointless post, but I just have to say that's a great quote.

    37. Re:Refuting Evolution by barawn · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's a hell of a lot of data on calibration of C-14 dating. For some they used historical references, others they used tree-ring calibration. It's not far off, in most cases. If the parent to your post was trying to say that C-14 data gives dates >1 million years off, he/she's on crack: C-14 is only accurate up to 60K years or so. It's also almost definitely order-of-magnitude correct. The problem mostly stems from two sources:

      1: Varying C-14 levels in the atmosphere over time (sunspots)
      2: Point at which carbon-exchange ended in the object.

      The first one is not that severe, honestly, and the second only applies to nonliving things. For living things we can pretty accurately assume that carbon exchange ended when it died. :) The first one however can produce dates which drift significantly as you go farther and farther back in time, as the "C-14 timeline" will "compress" and "expand" - that is, certain stretches of "real time" will correspond to unequal portions of "C-14 time" based on the levels of C-14 in the atmosphere at those points.

      Radiometric dating is very accurate if you know the ambient level throughout the period that isotope exchange was occuring, and then when the isotope exchange stopped. If you're off significantly on either one of those, you could have problems. But that's what cross-calibration is for.

    38. Re:Refuting Evolution by bigsexyjoe · · Score: 1

      The bible was written to test your faith in the great Zool. Anyone foolish enough to believe the bible literally has hell to pay. Praise Zool! Praise Zool!

    39. Re:Refuting Evolution by bigsexyjoe · · Score: 1
      Evolution won the arguement a long time ago. Is the field of chemistry unscientific because of the monolithic dogma of the atomic theory of matter? Or is it just that this idea is supported through tons of evidence? Back to astronomy, is there any serious challenge to the idea that the Sun is fueled by fusion?

      There are plenty of raging debates among serious biologists. As for evolution, that one has been settled a long time ago.

    40. Re:Refuting Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I personally do not see any problem with combining creationism with evolution.

      Neither do I, as long as you keep it in the realm of beliefs and not as "fact" or "scientific."

      The only thing that creation provides that evolution does not is a starting point

      It provides a single guess, out of the infinite unsupportable guesses. If you had evidence, it might have some credibility. But right now it has as much credibility as mine: "intangible unicorns created the universe."

      *IMHO* total leap of faith that random chance could produce beings with even the complexity of a bacterium.

      Fine, that is your opinion. But the magnitude of time and space pretty much negates any "probability" rating we smack onto it. For all we know, space-time can be infinite and therefore every possibility will be exhausted eventually.

      There's nothing in my faith or bible that tells me to throw logic to the window.

      Then you obviously haven't read it in a while. Check out the gospels, for instance. I refuse to call anything "divine" that inspired those obvious logical inconsistancies (such as the tomb incident)...

    41. Re:Refuting Evolution by Deimosuva · · Score: 1

      "to negate one proves the other."
      I disagree. They are both theories, and while there is evidence to support both, we could still be construing the facts we have to be wrong. What if aliens genetically constructed the earth as their terrarium, and real life is created in a completely different way than we think? What if the universe was laid by a giant bird? I know I'm being nitpicky, but I'm just saying that there aren't two absolutes.

    42. Re:Refuting Evolution by EatHam · · Score: 1

      If I understand what you're saying, you're questioning the nature of free will? If so, we have been given a free will. We can do whatever we want, but we are also responsible for the consequences of those actions. In addition, we inherit the consequences of those that came before us - including our parents and our grandparents. This is a concept that some people have a hard time with - like we have to suffer the consequences even if we've done nothing wrong ourselves. However, none of those people will complain about reaping the benefits from others' actions. Something like if your parents die and leave you a heap of money, you won't complain. Conversely, if they are terrible with money, you may end up having to pay for their funeral. Not your fault, but nonetheless, you suffer the consequences.

      So I would say that it's a combination of your statements. I don't believe that God left us to ourselves, nor does he force us to take one path or another. He gave us both free will and intelligence [insert joke here] and we can take whatever path we want. That said, there are certain things that we do not have free will on, but those are mostly along the lines of having the free will to decide whether or not to jump off a bridge, but not being able to change your mind halfway down.

    43. Re:Refuting Evolution by barawn · · Score: 2

      Reread my post: in the limit of the two theories that I stated, one is the direct opposite of the other.

      Aliens genetically constructed the earth as their terrarium: that falls under "creationism" - instantaneous creation of Earth at some point in time in the past (or relatively instantaneous...).

      Universe laid by a giant bird: Falls out of the scope of the theories, as the theories describe Earth's creation. Rewriting "Earth laid by a giant bird." Falls under "creationism" - instantaneous creation of Earth.

      If you define evolution and creationism as I did, they're opposites of each other. If Earth wasn't created instantaneously at some point, it must've been created over some period in time. Likewise, if the Earth wasn't created over a period in time, it must've been created instantaneously. I didn't give you a "how". I gave you a "when".

    44. Re:Refuting Evolution by benevolent_merchant · · Score: 1

      Though the ones who flew the planes into WTC were certainly religious, it would not surprise me if the higher ups, including Bin Laden himself, WERE atheists. Atheists using religion as a tool to manipulate people in fighting over what is really a land dispute.

    45. Re:Refuting Evolution by barawn · · Score: 2

      Well, no, there isn't a way.

      If you put an unlimited number of all the pieces of an airplane in an unlimited number of big piles, and let an unlimited number of airplanes sweep through them, and then sweep away the piles that don't look like you want them to look like - repeat ad nauseum, and in the limit of infinite repetitions, you'll get an identical airplane, and then no, you won't be able to tell them apart. The problem is that you're looking at an end product and saying "That must be designed." I could look at a pile of dirt, study it for years, and say "that must be designed" and still be wrong. See also Cydonia on Mars.

      Human timescales differ from universal timescales. Evolution is a very messy process, and produces a lot of crap. People born with gills, for instance. But, hey, I'm not exactly one to criticize: I haven't built any universes lately.

    46. Re:Refuting Evolution by Dirtside · · Score: 2

      I was under the impression that you don't even necessarily need to know the ambient level to begin with: you can simply analyze the ratios of daughter isotopes/elements to the parent, which tells you how much there was originally. The only problem I can see with this is that C-14's decay product is C-12, which is already abundant in a dead organism, so how do you tell which C-12 is the decayed C-14 and which C-12 was there to begin with? (Answer: cross-calibration, or other methods that are unnecessary with decaying elements that leave behind distinctive daughter elements, right?)

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    47. Re:Refuting Evolution by barawn · · Score: 2

      (1): C14's decay product can't be C12, you'd lose atomic number there. C12 has 12 nucleons, C14 has 14 nucleons. C14's decay path is N14 (neutron -> proton + electron + antineutrino: Slashdot needs "physicscode").

      (2): By ambient level, I meen "initial ratio" of C12 to C14. You need to know this. Without it, you have no idea about anything. So C14 dating assumes that the C14 level in the atmosphere was constant over time, and the crosscalibration indicates that assumption is mostly correct.

    48. Re:Refuting Evolution by Dirtside · · Score: 2

      Right, I had long forgotten what C14's decay product actually was... N14, not C12.

      Anyway, my point was that since C14's decay product (nitrogen) is also commonly found in things that have carbon in them, you can't simply look at the ratio of decay product to remaining parent element to determine the date. However, if C14's decay product was (let's say) the mysterious N13.5 (which is not normally found in organisms), you could simply measure the proportion of N13.5 to C14, and you wouldn't need any calibration value at all.

      To extend the example... you find an organism that has 0.5g of C14 and 0.5g of N13.5 in it. Without any other info, you would be able to tell that the organism had died one C14 half-life ago (5730 years). Now, the problem in real life is that C14 decays into N14, so there's no way to tell whether the N14 in the organism was there to begin with, or whether it is the result of C14 decay, which is why you need cross-calibration for C14 dating. But for heavier elements that decay into things that aren't normally found in living organisms, you only need to know the ratio of daughter products to the parent product. Right?

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    49. Re:Refuting Evolution by Conanymous+Award · · Score: 1

      Those higher ups must be quite hard-working atheists - hard working as in working hard to know the rituals of islam, to know their Koran etc. Or maybe somebody is doing that job for them and is just telling them the most important parts they need to use frequently to look like true believers.

      Or maybe they're just real fundamentalists. Which is probably the case.

    50. Re:Refuting Evolution by wakim1618 · · Score: 1

      I am mystified by the lack of the following interpretation of the bible: the bible is a road map to where mankind comes from and where it should be going. Suppose you were an almighty being and you had to explain things to a group of mostly superstitous beings who believed in thunder gods and spirits. Would you tell them about the galaxies and distances they can't imagine? Or about electrons and microbes that they can't see? Suppose further that as the almighty creator, you had a destiny in mind for such beings. Would it be any use to stick to the true story of science? I haven't read the bible but listening to people trying to explain the bible to me, I wonder why so much of the story of creation is taken so literally. This seems to me to be one of the least interesting or useful stories in the bible.

    51. Re:Refuting Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if the Bible had said something like, "...and when you meet your neighbors from the stars, treat them and their culture with kindness and love them like your earthly neighbors..."

      When you consider, albeit hypothetically now, that machines will one day think - will they "get" souls?

      And, when we meet the aliens, will they be reading the Bible?

      Hypotheticals worked for Einstein, and they work for me. Nothing in my knowledge or experience tells me that there are no aliens, and that machines can't someday think. Both items tell me that the Bible wasn't written by any all knowing entity, because creation is SO earth centered. It's a big world, and the bible ignores 99% of it. By world I mean the cosmos, of course.

      And, once you throw out the belief in God, you can take the blinders off and enjoy the fact that we evolved.

      BTW, if I were a member of a non-jewish or christian religion, I'd be pissed that readers on slashdot always seem to be either atheists, christians, or christians that accept some aspects of science...there are tons of different religions here folks, and as far as proof, the bible isn't any more "holy" of a book that the koran (sp?) or any books from any other religions...

      I mean, even if we accept, say, evolution by intelligent design, this does not point to the BIBLE by default...a jewish friend of mine doesn't accept evolution because he "looks at a tree, and sees the utter complexity". Well, I haven't convinced him that he is full of it just yet, but I did make him see that a tree does not point to the Bible.

      I might have a mid life crisis, look at a tree, and become Budhist, after all, so, folks, lets broaden our horizons a bit here...

    52. Re:Refuting Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      an interesting post, but quite arrogant. To think that all one needs to understand life on earth are one or both of evolution and christianity is pretty silly.

      No part of christianity and the bible can be any more, or less, proven than the other religions and holy books on the planet, not to mention any potential holy books that aliens might conjure up.

      I'm an atheist, but before I became one, I read into many religions - the first of which was christianity. Why? because, like you, I was born into a mostly-christian area, go figure!

      Had you been born in India, perhaps you'd be saying that Hindo and evolution go together, etc.

    53. Re:Refuting Evolution by cp99 · · Score: 1

      The only thing that creation provides that evolution does not is a starting point and a way to explain the *IMHO* total leap of faith that random chance could produce beings with even the complexity of a bacterium.

      These two points contradict each other.

      If evolution doesn't provide a starting point, then it has no need to explain where the first life came from.

      If it can explain where the first life came from, then it provides a starting point.

      The first situation is the correct one. Evolution says nothing about the creation of life. As far as Darwin's fine theory is concerned, life could have arrived by natural processes, been placed here by God, or planted by aliens. It doesn't really matter.

      What you should be critising is the theory of abiogensis (the creation of life through natural processes). This isn't a big issue, however, I like to correct it when it comes up as some young earth creationists like to confuse things by attacking evolution through abiogensis.

      And one more minor point, abiogensis doesn't claim that beings similar to bacteria where created by random chance.

      --
      Warning: Some ideologies on the Net are smaller than they appear.
    54. Re:Refuting Evolution by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      Good point, You're good at this..

      If I didn't have so much code to write before Tomorrow's "demo" I'd reply in length. (Yeah, read "demo" as "lets see what we really asked for before we work up specs") ;0)

      I guess I wasn't really questioning free will, maybe I was. I was curious where people thought that God's influence left the Human to be Human. We all make mistakes, and you're right, we all would rather have benefits than having to deal with the bills of those who passed.

      I guess it's kind of "non-religious" to say that Humans are all "free" will, and are influenced by no outside forces. It's also kind of impossible.

      I, for one, am terribly influenced by the world around me. It's hot, sticky, muggy, and my allergies are acting up today. Therefore, I'd much rather be inside in the AC. ;)

  4. Only 50 cell divisions? by EatHam · · Score: 1

    50 cell divisions - assuming that each cell lives for the duration of all divisions would yield 1,125,899,906,842,624 cells. Don't know if I would have put it in the terms of "only" 50 divisions. My only experience with this book being the review, I'm not sure that this applies, but I'm always a bit disappointed with books like this. Explaining the genome is all well and good, but I always want to see more "what-if" scenarios. Like would it be possible to make a fruit fly 50% bigger or something.

    1. Re:Only 50 cell divisions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      is mitosis sucessful 100% of the time? hrm. i really wonder. it might not work, say, 0.5% of the time. maybe less. maybe it takes longer for some cells.

    2. Re:Only 50 cell divisions? by EatHam · · Score: 1

      I would say that I am positive that mitosis does not work 100% of the time. That said, it's still pretty close to that original number of cells created over the duration of 50 divisions. By pretty close, I mean close to a quadrillion which is a lot. What's a few billion between friends at that point?

    3. Re:Only 50 cell divisions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fruit fly has been experimented on perhaps as much as any other animal. Scientists have discovered the genes, or at least some of them, for growth of the fruit fly's eyes and tested the genes in placing eyes on different parts of the fly, such as its legs (but the eyes were not functional). I don't know about 50% growth though.

    4. Re:Only 50 cell divisions? by EatHam · · Score: 1

      Any idea where that's documented? Now that's something I'd like to read.

    5. Re:Only 50 cell divisions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "One fly had 14 eyes growing out of various parts of its anatomy"

      http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA01/master_ ey e_gene.html

    6. Re:Only 50 cell divisions? by oliverthered · · Score: 2

      Try mutant_flies for some freeky flies.

      then there's this story(not that great but interesting).
      Or a video

      or what your looking for?

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    7. Re:Only 50 cell divisions? by krmt · · Score: 2

      Well, that's misleading math. First off, not every cell divides every time. Some organs, like eyes, stop or slow cell division once they reach a certain point. Others keep dividing rapidly throughout the life of the organism.

      Another thing is controlled apoptosis, which is cell suicide. This is very very common in development, and is necessary to get the organism to look the way it does. That's why you've got fingers instead of webs. You know the little webs at the base of the area between your digits? Those are remnants of the cells that died during your development. Many of the cells that did divide continually go through apoptosis, so they're not around in the mature organsim.

      And I don't know about making flies 50% bigger, although I'd be willing to bet a lot on it's having been done (I hate working with the little buggers myself, so I don't really keep up on them) but I know for a fact that it's been done in mice and plants. Maybe not 50% bigger, but definitely bigger.

      --

      "I may not have morals, but I have standards."

  5. My 23 Chromosomes by marko123 · · Score: 1

    1. I like to program
    2. I like to spend lots of time with linux
    3. I like to spend lots of time on Slashdot
    4. I chase karma
    5. I am witty
    6. I like to drink
    7. I like to smoke
    8. I like to program
    9. See 1.
    10. I don't understand girls
    11. I don't like the sun
    12. I like the Matrix
    13. I thrive on violent games and movies
    14. I don't like fighting for real
    15. I shower when I have to
    16. I optimise my housework
    17. I like girls, but they don't understand me
    18. I do bad things to myself but not to others
    19. No-one gets that
    20. I want to meet aliens
    21. I want them to be nice
    22. I want to be alive when BattleMechs are invented.
    23.???

    Oh, crap, I'm a code from Mars and you have to guess the 23rd chromosome.

    --
    http://pcblues.com - Digits and Wood
    1. Re:My 23 Chromosomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your #10 gene says you're gay. your #20 gene says that you will die a horrible death.

    2. Re:My 23 Chromosomes by marko123 · · Score: 1

      Maybe #23 is:
      I will not die alone :)

      --
      http://pcblues.com - Digits and Wood
    3. Re:My 23 Chromosomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the looks of your list, I'd say there should be 24 chromosomes there instead of 23..

    4. Re:My 23 Chromosomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We ALL die alone.
      Or at least that's what it seemed like was going to happen when I had my heart attack.

    5. Re:My 23 Chromosomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      23. I like to ramble on about bullshit no one cares about.

    6. Re:My 23 Chromosomes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your comment proves that number five is wrong; leaving two mystery chromosomes.

      Thank you,
      -The English Troll

  6. A fascinatingly interesting look at 'us' by dknj · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you never thought you'd read a book about genetics, (or even if you have) then this is the book for you. Ridley shows how the genetic map that is being developed for us will lead us to many of the answers that we have sought about ourselves. He explains in basic terms how genetics and evolution works. The most amazing part of this book is that it is extremely enjoyable to read. While still in the second chapter I was contemplating reading it again. If you have any interest in how we got to be what we are and what the future may hold for us, (or if you want some great party trivia) then reading 'Genome' will be both entertaining and enriching.

    -dk

    1. Re:A fascinatingly interesting look at 'us' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you or the others read The Selfish Gene? Do not make such wild assertions.

    2. Re:A fascinatingly interesting look at 'us' by Executive+Chef · · Score: 1

      I did just read this book again. I read it years ago, and a close relative has just recently been battling cancer. Forget the evolution/religion debate - this book does a great job of explaining why certain substances are carcinogenic, what exactly are free radicals and why they are dangerous, and how our cells age and degenerate. I found the expanation of the role genetics play in cell regeneration, aging and cancer to be fascinating. The constant copying of our cells and damage of "cushions" called telomeres causes all sorts of problems, and we can actually help our cells copy themselves more accurately by avoiding toxic substances that cause free radicals. Sounded like crazy nutrition-babble until I read this book. And that's just one of the topics that Ridley explains so engagingly. I've recommended this book dozens of times.

  7. I read this two years ago by UCSB_Levendis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Let me start this by saying that I enjoyed the book. But should books be held to a different standard than movies regarding reviews? I remember a recent review of U571 getting a bunch of shit because it was years late. Since the time that this book was written the entire genome has been mapped. In such a volatile field there are many things that go out of date fast. Maybe it's one thing to see a review of The Selfish Gene which although is 25 years old established an entirely new field of study, but this isn't groundbreaking material despite being well written and I'm pretty certain some of this material is out of date. I hope to not see a review of Misery or Hyperion any time soon on /.

  8. Wow! Good for you, faggot fuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    gee whiz nothing more exciting than a book report from you grotus nerds.

  9. The problem of magnitude by Pac · · Score: 2

    "total leap of faith that random chance could produce beings with even the complexity of a bacterium"

    There is no faith involved and very little randomness. Statistics is a harsh mistress. Given enough time anything that can happen, will happen. People will cross steel walls. Monkeys will write Hamlet. Pigs will fly.

    When you consider the magnitude of the time involved, it is absolutely not surprising that evolution took place. It is also not surprinsing that the brain of the short-lived creatures developed under this evolutionary process is utterly unprepared to deal with the quantities involved. Hence some of us will always find it "impossible".

    1. Re:The problem of magnitude by EatHam · · Score: 1

      I think the problem lies not with statistics, but with entropy. Given enough time, a closed system (that might be a problem - how do you define "closed system" for the purposes of discussion?) will tend toward chaos, not order.

      Even if it did tend toward order, we are still left with the problem of origination. Where did the mass of whatever come from that started the whole thing off?

    2. Re:The problem of magnitude by Helmholtz+Coil · · Score: 2

      Reminds me of something I think was from Hawking's Brief History of Time. He was talking about how people were sometimes amazed that the universe evolved "just so" and supported life. Hawking wrote that we shouldn't be surprised if we look around at a universe that supports our existence, otherwise we wouldn't be here to be surprised. Maybe the same can be said for evolution.

    3. Re:The problem of magnitude by elocutio · · Score: 1

      I agree with the "x factor" that you identify as magnitude; however, if I understand the logic correctly, you are saying, because of magnitude, thus evolution.

      This assumes that one of the factors required for the "Monkeys to write Hamlet," is time, and bygod a lot of it.

      Where I differ with your conclusion is that I don't think time is ever causal. Time is like a passive fabric. It doesn't "cause" anything to happen, it is just a medium that contains events of occurance. My point is that although time will most certainly dictate "how" events occur (see General Theory of Relativity), it can't influence "why" they occur.

    4. Re:The problem of magnitude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Entropy doesn't really enter the equation in the way people are thinking. Locally, order can be established with an appropriate use of energy that's provided by increasing entropy elsewhere. IE - a scattered deck of cards is in a state of high entropy, but a person willing to expend the energy to pick up and order them can locally reverse that. Thermodynamics isn't violated, because globally, entropy increased in the process of providing that person with the energy to do the task.

      When it comes to evolution on earth, the increasing entropy of the sun provides an energy source that fuels the increase in order in multicellular organisms.

    5. Re:The problem of magnitude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is why evolutionist keep changing the age of the universe every couple of years. They know that it has to be alot older than they previously GUESSED for their theory hold water, which it doesn't. Natural selection doesn't equal evolution. Mutations in the genome is what makes you different from me, but it will never make a monkey into a man. There is no evidence of one species mutating into another and there never will be.

    6. Re:The problem of magnitude by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is where you are completely wrong! Your intuition about the effects of randomness and the time required are completely without base. The age of the universe is held to be between 10 and 20 billion years old. That would be about 1.5 x 10^10 years.

      Now, for the sake of argument, consider a monkey pressing on a keyboard hitting one key per second. How long will it take before he creates the string of characters:

      "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back."

      There are 52 characters in that string.

      Now, there are 26 characters in the english alphabet. But we need to account for both upper and lower case letters, so that makes 52. Add ten digits, that makes 62. For simplicity, lets add 18 for punctuation marks, and that makes a nice round 80 -- although I can quickly count more than 18 punctuation marks -- (unfortunately, the slashdot 'lameness filter' does not let me list them, but look at your keyboard and you can easily see more than 18).

      So for simplicity, we will say that for each character position, there are only 80 possibilities (if we were using unicode, it would be rather higher than 80!).

      Now, 80^52 is: 9.13 x 10^98

      (For those with access to unix or linux, type 'bc' then 80^52 for a more accurate representation.)

      Since we believe that the monkey will not type this string on the very first try, nor on the very last try, we divide this in half to represent, on average (if we had more than one monkey working on this) when in the sequence our target string would be typed. This gives us 4.56 x 10^98.

      Now if the monkey is typing one character per second, that means that it would take a monkey 4.56 x 10^98 seconds (on average) to type our target string.

      Or 7.61 x 10^97 minutes
      Or 1.26 x 10^95 hours
      Or 5.28 x 10^94 days
      Or 1.44 x 10^91 years

      Guess what, 10^91 years is longer than the age of the universe. If the universe is about 10^10 years, that would be about 10^81 TIMES GREATER THAN THE AGE OF THE UNIVERSE!!

      For those of you who need to have your intuition tuned, 10^81 is getting to the order of magnitude of the number of atoms in the universe!!

      But surely, the monkey could type more than one character per second.

      At 10 cps, we get 10^80
      At 1K cps, we get 10^78
      At 1M cps, we get 10^75
      At 1G cps, we get 10^72

      So, generating 1G characters per second means that it would only take our monkey THE LIFETIME OF 72 UNIVERSES to generate the string:

      "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back."

      I think creating the first living cell is slightly more complicated than that. And creating the first living vertabrate, a little more complicated than that. And creating the first living human was more compilcated than that.

      So, where is all the time to do this?

  10. Entropy by Pac · · Score: 2

    Fear not, the closed system in question is going relentlessly into chaos. It will take billions upon billions of years, but the Universe will eventually manage to fullfil the theory...

    Entropy can not apply to small subsets of the closed system. In the case of evolution, the System is the whole Universe, as cosmological events can and do affect us everyday (and this discussion assumes we can call this mess we are "order").

    The final origin does not need to enter this discussion right now, because while local evolution was in some way "caused" by the Big Bang, the facts are so far apart in time and space that it would be the same as trying to analyse the human digestion in terms of the atoms composing the granparents of the human in question (in other words, I am discussing evolution, not the ultimate possibility of the existence of an extra-physical cause somewhere in the far past).

    1. Re:Entropy by EatHam · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But in order for it to be going relentlessly into chaos, we would have to assume that 15 billion years ago, the universe was at its most organized, no?

      I do realize that entropy cannot apply to a subset of the closed system - my question was more related to whether or not the Universe can be determined to be a closed system.

      Since people seem to like Hawking, here's a quote from him...

      ...the theory that the universe has existed forever is in serious difficulty with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law, states that disorder always increases with time. Like the argument about human progress, it indicates that there must have been a beginning. Otherwise, the universe would be in a state of complete disorder by now, and everything would be at the same temperature.

      reference, and a good lecture here.

    2. Re:Entropy by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      "Order" and "Chaos" are relative terms, and the definitions differ between different sources. One man's trash is another's treasure. I think the universe is in a constant state of flux, not order nor is it chaos. It just is. If people define "chaos" as "the world no longer exists" then they're fooling themselves because they are not looking outside.

    3. Re:Entropy by camken · · Score: 1

      Order, for the purposes of this discussion, was yes at it's most bountiful 15 billion years ago.

      As the universe so long ago was virtually a void, with no mass, matter, or movement, it does stand to reason that it was more ordered.
      As opposed to the wildly expanding, colliding, burning, birthing, and dying that it's doing now...

      Next time you want to dispute somebodys statement, TRY to take it in the meaning the author implied (not the meaning in your mind) Aside from that, i'm not posting my opinion because it's almost sure to start a flame war.

      --
      Moo.
    4. Re:Entropy by SerpentMage · · Score: 2

      Now here is food for thought. I read somewhere that Stephen Hawkings and somebody else were debating about some formula. (Recent deabte) And Stephen Hawkings could not understand why the formula did not work. For fun he tried and created "imaginary time". Time with multiple dimensions. And in this imaginary time there is no beginning and no end.

      This tells us one of two things.
      1) He forced a square peg through a round hole to make the darn formula fit.
      2) Or the hole was square to start with, even though we all believed that it was round.

      Now going on two, imagine the following. There is no beginning and there is no ending. In other words when we ask where did it all start, it started nowhere and everywhere. Ok you still say but that still had to have a starting point. But the answer is no, there is no start and no end. What we perceive as time is not time. Just a temporary existance before we disappear again.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    5. Re:Entropy by Rubyflame · · Score: 1

      Yes, but what if we instead define "chaos" as "energy over quantity times temperature" (with quantity given in moles)? You ought to learn a bit about physics before you say it's wrong.

      --

      All it takes is nukes and nerves.
  11. Re:Have you ever been sodimized? by enden · · Score: 1

    Nope.. but have you ever been Gomorrahized?

    Trust me, it's a lot worse.

  12. Necessary conditions and causal factors by Pac · · Score: 2

    No. A vast quantity of time is a necessary conditon for an evolutionary process to produce meaningful results. It does not cause evolution, it only allows it to exist given the right factors (the same way, for instance, that the existence of a fertile female body does not "cause" a baby to be born - it is just a necessary condition).

    What I mean is that given an evolutionary quantity of time, all factors will eventually have the opportunity to combine themselves in the ways necessary for evolution to occur, no matter how "improbable" the requested configuration is.

    1. Re:Necessary conditions and causal factors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has been repeated proven incorrect. There has not nearly been enough time (1.5 billion years) to explain all the evolution that is visible.

      Remember also that 'negative' evolutionary changes are going to be constantly eliminating positive evolutionary changes: that is, a change in the constituency of a population is just as likely to wipe out that population (can you say AIDS) as it is to support further growth of that population.

    2. Re:Necessary conditions and causal factors by elocutio · · Score: 1

      A vast quantity of time is a necessary conditon for an evolutionary process to produce meaningful results.

      See, that's the very claim that I dispute. As the late Stephen Jay Gould proposed in his treatise on punctuated equilibrium, the actual evolutionary process may occur in bursts over a short span of time. Therefore, in any given evolutionary event, time is neither causal nor necessary for an evolutionary mutation to occur. Time is merely a passive observer, providing no qualifying catalysts or, as you termed it, "conditions."

      I'm willing to concede to you on the point of probability. People who argue against evolution based purely on its low probabilities are constructing straw men out of half-assumptions. I agree that literally anything is possible given enough time. But time is not at all a necessary ingredient in evolution any more than a refrigerator is a necessary ingredient for a cake.

      As you said, statistics can be a harsh mistress. If my odds of winning a lottery are 1x10^23, the first ticket may be the winner, and the 1x10^23 ticket may not be the winner. In fact, given that the lottery numbers are truly randomly generated, there is a statistical chance that the correct set of numbers never occurs, even at double or triple the rate of probability. Plotting the odds of "winning" in the evolution game is a mathematical stalemate. My point is that the probability of a successful evolutionary mutation is irrelevant. The fact is that it happens to occur. In mutations of a genome, you're looking at several millions of possible mutations per generation, compounded by the base-pair matching during sexual reproduction of the parents for their offspring, the actual genetic potential for successful mutations would far exceed those required for evolution to occur.

      If you take punctuated equilibrium to some of its logical applications, alligators may hatch chickens. I know that the conclusion sounds absurd, but if the parents meet the genetic pre-conditions for sexually reproducing that offspring, that's what's going to happen. And they might even have the ability to walk through steel walls. Given some of the premises of the parent article, perhaps fruit flies will start hatching humans.

      People may read these statements and laugh at their absurdity. Suddenly, our minds require some fairy tale factors of astronomical gazillion-times-gazillion math. Then, we can wrest our minds from doubt and place our faith in the "long, long ago" story of this large amount of time.

      In 6,000 years of recorded human history, no transpeciation has been observed. The absence of "missing links" is one of the gaps that punctuated equilibrium seeks to cover. And for the uniformitarians who believe that evolution occurs little-by-little over generations of time, the large scale of time since the origins of the universe provides a useful placebo of comfort to the doubtful.

  13. Big Bang? by Pac · · Score: 2

    If we agree this is a side-issue in respect to planetary evolution, having all existing mass concentrated in a singular abstract point seems pretty ordered to me.

    We don't know why it would explode into what we see. No scientist ever claimed to know, either. It may have been a god, it may have been some factor we can't know, it may be that things are just thus. But from a second after the explosion onwards to now we have a jolly good working picture.

  14. Chaos by Pac · · Score: 2

    "Chaos" here means just that the temperature in every point of the system is the same. It is the physical equivalent of Fukyoama's "End of History".

    But you point to the right direction. Entropy cannot be analised locally. The presence or absence of Earth and its warring primates means nothing in the cosmological scale.

  15. The entire (human) genome has NOT been mapped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...but a draft version has been published.

  16. Guessed? by Pac · · Score: 2

    Look, parameters of a theory, any theory, are not a matter dogma. There is no sitting evolution pope who now and then will speak ex-cathedra about the new evolutionary truths.

    The "right" age of the Universe is as subjected to change as everything else in science. And when I say everything I mean everything. No principle, no equation, no inference is free from facing the hard evidence.

    That is why scientists do not use expressions like "never make" and "never will".

    As for your specific claim, there are so many other factors involved in making a monkey into a man that I believe you should study the "evil" scientific texts involved before we can discuss this matters in a meaninful way.

  17. Except for a little fact by Pac · · Score: 2

    The fact that the visible evolution is there to be seem, no matter the amount of time you and I think necessary for it to occur. Unless you are willing to give room for extra-scientific data (gods, alliens). These may well have happened, but while we have no proff of those I prefer to keep trying with the data in hand.

  18. Nice try by Pac · · Score: 2

    Please notice I never stated the amount of time necessary for a monkey to produce Hamlet. I never even stated how many monkeys I would employ in the task. Nor do I care. I said "given enough time", whatever it may be.

    But also notice that typing monkeys and evolving molecules organisms are completely different phenomenon. Your final jump from "proving" you would need 72 times the age of the Universe for a monkey to type a string to concluding that evolution could not have happened is amusing but false and logically wrong. Unless of course you can come with exact figures on the possibilities involved in eveolving from nothing to human (and, naturally, have this figures peer-reviewed and accepted by the scientific community).

  19. If this is true.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Would there someday be a female human capable of finding geeks attractive? Wow, imagine the possibilities!

    recompile.org

    1. Re:If this is true.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my ex-model Ph. D. wife certainly likes this geek. it can happen.

  20. I respectfully agree, sir by Pac · · Score: 2

    Even if Gould is far from uncontroversial, I am certainly prepared to concede to his (and your) ideas seriousness and importance. From all I (we) know, it all may well have happened the way he describes, all of a sudden (beware, kids, when reading this - "all of sudden" here is not what you may think).

    But even punctuated equilibrium will usually require time to occur (in the same way winning in the lotery may require one, many or an infinite number of trials). So my insistence that time should be important.

    Anyway, you probably know I was not exactly arguing against Gould. As I said elsewhere, a scientific theory is as good as the amount of undertanding it gives us about the past, present and future state of world. If a present theory is wrong no serious scientist should never hesitate to adapt, rework or throw it away, as the case may be.

  21. Re:gnome ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I tried Genome once, but now I'm back to KDE.