Slashdot Mirror
India Plans Its Own Moon Shot
anzha writes: "CNN is reporting that India is planning an unmanned mission to Luna in 2007. The US, Russia (when it was the USSR), and Japan are the only nations to have done so, or so they say. For some reason, I thought that ESA, the European Space Agency, had sent one also. At any rate, while I'd like to see the Stars and Stripes posted all over the galaxy, more competition is better! So, all I have to say is, 'Go, India! Go!'" I wonder if China is still on track for 2005.
I guess its better then nuclear escalation with Pakistan... notice how they seem to be mirroring the US-USSR cold war?
Now they will know for sure the moon isn't made of curry!
"The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein," - Joe Theisman
I'm surprised they didn't do it sooner. After all, it's incredibly rewarding for a nation to land on the moon. Look at all we got out of it. Like, ehh... That is to say, we obviously have the advantage of ... The benefits to us are... umm... Clearly, you could say that we...
Wait, no, we didn't get squat. Darn!
------
http://cooltech.org
If it ain't cool, it ain't coolt
"...while I'd like to see the Stars and Stripes posted all over the galaxy,..."
Ya know, I never understood this. It seems to me the the "space race" should be humankind against itself, not each country against the other. Speaking as both a citizen of both the US and the world, If India or China or anyone else reaches Mars before the US, I'll be damn proud that my race made it to Mars.
"Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?"
*Whew* that was close!
Granted, the real motivation is to demonstrate to Pakistan and China that they have missi^H^H^H^H^H launch vehicles capable of reaching escape velocity, and thus, any targe^H^H^H^H^Hlocation on the planet.
But that said - it was precisely the same showboating against the Soviets that got us to the moon.
And if the same showboating can get either India or China (or both!) to the moon, maybe they'll be able to send a few scientists along for the ride. It's Space Race, Mk. II!
I'm not naive enough to believe that this will result in a permanent manned lunar base, or any long-term exploration of the lunar surface and subsurface, but I'm at least optimistic that we [humanity] will be able to piggyback a few scientists along for the ride, and learn a few things that we couldn't easily learn with robotic missions.
It's depressing that we're still at the stage where a guy with a pick and shovel can accomplish more in five minutes on the moon's surface than any probe NASA is likely to launch in the next 50 years.
IANAI (I am not an Indian), but I'm going to have to agree that I just don't seem the point. The article claims it may foster more national pride and whatnot, but surely that $82.5 million could foster national pride by going more directly to the citizens. Granted it would amount to, what, 80 cents per person, but can't there be something done with that? Can't they show scientific and intellectual prowess by doing something that hasn't already been done and/or would directly benefit people?
"Why should we subsidize intellectual curiosity?" -Ronald Reagan
- This was the quote at the bottom of the page when I read the comments. Heh.
I'm very happy to hear that India is willing to push itself to new heights. If there is any country that would want to colonize the moon (or mars), Its India. (well, china too). There you go. There's the space race..
- Tempestdata
Going to the moon is pretty much BFD these days, regardless of *who* does it.
What I want to see is a nation or a group of nations going to the moon for the purpose of DOING something. Not just collecting rocks or whatever the hell is usually done. Beginning mining operations, perhaps? Setting up a permanent lunar base? Off-world factories? ANYTHING!
I'd like to think we're beyond popping the hatch and poking our heads out the door, then flying back, or at least should be working that way.
...when Belgium sends a manned mission to Venus. So long, Dirk!
India's moon shot will never beat this one. It's an advertising flyer from a 1981 video game called "Moon War".
There are 01 kinds of cars in the world. The General Lee, and everything else.
that NASA is going to sue all the moon rocks they bring back.
The "Moon": A Ridiculous Liberal Myth
It amazes me that so many allegedly "educated" people have fallen so quickly and so hard for a fraudulent fabrication of such laughable proportions. The very idea that a gigantic ball of rock happens to orbit our planet, showing itself in neat, four-week cycles -- with the same side facing us all the time -- is ludicrous. Furthermore, it is an insult to common sense and a damnable affront to intellectual honesty and integrity. That people actually believe it is evidence that the liberals have wrested the last vestiges of control of our public school system from decent, God-fearing Americans (as if any further evidence was needed! Daddy's Roommate? God Almighty!)
Documentaries such as Enemy of the State have accurately portrayed the elaborate, byzantine network of surveillance satellites that the liberals have sent into space to spy on law-abiding Americans. Equipped with technology developed by Handgun Control, Inc., these satellites have the ability to detect firearms from hundreds of kilometers up. That's right, neighbors .. the next time you're out in the backyard exercising your Second Amendment rights, the liberals will see it! These satellites are sensitive enough to tell the difference between a Colt .45 and a .38 Special! And when they detect you with a firearm, their computers cross-reference the address to figure out your name, and then an enormous database housed at Berkeley is updated with information about you.
Of course, this all works fine during the day, but what about at night? Even the liberals can't control the rotation of the Earth to prevent nightfall from setting in (only Joshua was able to ask for that particular favor!) That's where the "moon" comes in. Powered by nuclear reactors, the "moon" is nothing more than an enormous balloon, emitting trillions of candlepower of gun-revealing light. Piloted by key members of the liberal community, the "moon" is strategically moved across the country, pointing out those who dare to make use of their God-given rights at night!
Yes, I know this probably sounds paranoid and preposterous, but consider this. Despite what the revisionist historians tell you, there is no mention of the "moon" anywhere in literature or historical documents -- anywhere -- before 1950. That is when it was initially launched. When President Josef Kennedy, at the State of the Union address, proclaimed "We choose to go to the moon", he may as well have said "We choose to go to the weather balloon." The subsequent faking of a "moon" landing on national TV was the first step in a long history of the erosion of our constitutional rights by leftists in this country. No longer can we hide from our government when the sun goes down.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
ESA is just preparing it's first trip to moon, it's project called SMART-1. It's going to travel to moon, but the key of the project is to test the new propulsion system, which is planned to be used for much longer trips.
Why does the myth that we never landed on the moon persist?
Why do people still refuse to believe that humans have visited other celestial bodies?
I don't buy the assumption that big projects are somehow mutually exclusive; that launching a space probe somehow directly steals food from the mouth of an orphan.
It suggests, firstly, that the government is responsible for every facet of human existence. Perhaps this might be the case in a fairy-tale centrally planned economy where there's some giant spreadsheet with line items for every penny spent.
It also suggests that the great problems could be fought simply by ponying up a bit more cash. The reason poverty, strife, and AIDS are so tough to fight--particularly in a ethnically divisive, caste-ridden society like India--is that they are problems rooted in human nature; in ignorance, wishful thinking, prejudice, greed and so on. The logistical problems involved in, say, producing and distributing a billion condom, is nothing compared to the challenge of getting guys to use them. Or getting a mom to bring in her kid for a free vaccination when damn he sure cried like the dickens last time he got a shot.
Symbolic achievements like moon shots might concievably help by giving people something to feel proud about and a standard to live up to.
Or it could be a stunt to get some pol reelected.
Stefan "Neoliberal? Damn straight!" Jones
Boo Hiss.
You're just trying to get a rice out of someone.
Wu-Tang Name: Half-Cut Skeleton Get your own Wu-Na
I guess it's better than the rampade poverty India faces, but hey, gotta find something to rag on the US about, right?
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Yet, it has been shown over and over that even though we are capable of our worst in the name of competition, it is also when we are at our best. Without the space race, we would never had gotten to the moon in the first place, or built the Space Shuttle either, expensive dinosaur that it is.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
Those Kids(China/India), when we went to the moon do you know what we would have given for a 386, hell a TI graphing calculator was a dream. You and your 'were going to the moon', We went uphill both ways..
Okay. That's enough nan-sense from the two of you.
I'm not saying that without the space program/race/etc. of the 60's we would never invent things like personal computers and the internet, but it gave modern technology a huge boost. Without the space program I suspect that right about now we'd be looking forward to the next generation of 300-baud modems.
I have heard too many debates on this go back and forth.
It seems that the bottom line is that nobody knows for sure what the benefits were because we have no "with" and "without" to compare side-by-side.
Yes, they did pump money into silicone chips, but just how much did that make a difference? A two-year differences? 6-months? Decade?
Nobody really knows. What if the moon money was pumped *directly* into technology research instead?
Perhaps we would have better chips because we would not have wasted it all at the dentist for drinking too much Tang.
Table-ized A.I.
News with the title "India plans to raise from poverty and have a middle class" would be more interesting.
Any competition is a good thing (IMO)...
SOMETHING needs to give the space program another kick in the pants. The Space Station has sucked away all of the money that might have been spent on more interesting projects, and it doesn't look like it's ever going to turn into the 'springboard to the solar system' some of us were hoping for...
Mostly a rant, here, but shouldn't the purpose of a Space Station / Moon Base be to further our reach to the rest of the area around the Earth? Where is the part on the space station that helps refuel the long-distance missions? Repair Bay for Satellites? Farm module to TRY to make it self-sustaining? It's like it's a big campout up there w/o the hunting/fishing going on...Just have mom bring out some more packs of pop-tarts every month. {GRIN}
First China, now India.
Is every country and their dog gonna do this now?
I guess it beats nuke fights, but poor countries are gonna bilk their starving citizens.
At least I hope they get creative after a few dozen, or it will just get boring. The British can land in a blue phone-booth-shaped craft, for example (Dr. Who reference). The U.S. lander was butt-ugly. It looks like they didn't bother to finish it.
What other interesting stereotypes can be turned into landing craft shapes? (Please, no giant wan-tan or burrito ideas.)
Table-ized A.I.
How on Earth (pun intended) can this be justified? While the US/USSR space race gave us lots of new technologies (was the microwave part of that? Tang?), there is nothing to be gained for India by doing the same at this late stage.
There's (allegedly) a huge black market for moon rock. CNN reported one going for $5M. If they could gather 20 small rocks and get them back to India, then the entire project would have been paid for!
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
Nope. Money transfer to space/defense contractors.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
It clearly states: Where most countries would find this task daunting, India has cleverly applied its greatest resource to the problem. Sheer manpower!
Of course, the engineering problem of building a human pyramid to the moon has not escaped these folk; they have set thousands of computer programmers to that task. "We expect to have this licked within the year," Samir Soontahn said Wednesday at a ISA press conference.
There is your answer! Next time read the article!
One thing that most people don't realize is that the American flag placed on the Moon was more than purely symbolic; under U.S. law, they were actually staking a claim on the land for America.
Pardon my french, but: Bullshit. According to Article 2 of the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, no one can own the moon, or indeed anything else beyond the Earth's atmosphere.
Don't forget what it says on the plaque attached to the Apollo 11 LEM:
"We came in peace, for all mankind."
Please don't attempt to portray one of humanity's greatest achievements as some kind of land-grab. Thanks.
Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
Nah, it's a red herring. India will just set up some TV sets, and fake a moon landing. That's what the USA did, after all.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
I dunno, the current administration of India seems to be headed by quite an ambitious guy (AKA Missile-man). I wouldn't put it past him or the rest of the x-billion Indians to do the things that the rest of the world has only been discussing in planning meetings, namely:
1. Reestablish a manned presence on the moon (yeah, this is an unmanned shot, but where will it lead?)
2. Get regular launches past LEO
3. Spur some real competition in the space game
4. Get more metal/air into space where we can use it
Let's just hope any fissionable materials that they send into space are fashioned as reactors, rather than warheads.
You're advocating the same thing - "Up with us!" You just expanded the definition of "us" from "my country" to "my species". The real problem is humans trying to achieve things...the sooner we realize we need to go back to a peaceful agrarian society with no technological advancement, the better.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
If you are just going to make stuff up, at least have it be hard to test. Going to Google and typing in "owns the moon" rebuts your nonsense.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Personally, I hope they set up the first take-out on the moon.
From the "History of Space Exploration" published in the year 2500...
The exploration of our solar system and the far reaches of our Galaxy would not have been possible had it not been for the early Chinese pioneers, who led the way into deep space opening take-out restaurants upon each world they encountered. The following masses of humanity left the bonds of mother Earth knowing that no matter where they pointed their spacecraft, they would be assured a cheap, hot meal at the end of their journey, with a free 2-liter bottle of soda for orders over $25.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
but isn't Lance Bass from N'Sync on the moon right now?
:)
This
Indian food in space and on the moon. Yum! Freeze-dried samosas and pakoras. Yum! Those people are going to have it MADE.
Man, you wouldn't want to sit more than 10 minutes with me in a car after I have Indian food. Spending three days in a spacecraft with recycled air would probably kill everyone on board.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
As you said. You win some, you lose some.
Has Japan actually sent something moonward?
No, ever since that whole King Ghidorah and Planet X incident, Japan has been wary of sending anything beyond Earth's orbit. Every time they try something Gozilla ends up destroying Tokyo, so they've scaled back on these massive techology ventures.
Anyway, link to Japan's current lunar projects here
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
Let's just hope ISRO (India's version of NASA) is better than their version of Hollywood:
m l
http://stomptokyo.com/movies/s/superman-indian.ht
I have the fortune to live near The Kansas Cosmosphere and Space Center in Hutchinson, Kansas. They are one of the leading space museums (in the same league as the Smithsonian), and their biggest claim to fame is the fact that they have the largest collection of Russian Space artifacts outside Russia. This is in large part due to their main exhibit, the Hall Of Space.
The Hall of Space shows the evolution of the Space Race, from World War II (including a fully restored V2 rocket) to the modern day. But rather than being a "rah rah rah, we beat you to the M-ooon! Nyah-Nyah!" it is a very balanced portrail of just how close the race was, and just how bad the Russians were kicking our asses at first. Thus, the Russians really like the Cosmosphere, and when they are looking for a place outside their own museums to house artifacts they call the Cosmosphere first.
In the Hall of Space they make a point I've not seen made anywhere else - they point out that JFK was trying to find a means of competition between the USSR and the USA that didn't involve building large amounts of weapons, so he started the space race to "drain off" some of the competition, hoping to keep both sides working on that rather than destroying the world.
And it seems to have worked.
So in a very real way the space race was "mankind racing against itself" - racing to mature away from the need to destroy itself.
Really, if you are ever to be anywhere within 200 miles of the Cosmosphere, I urge you to go there. If you are crossing the US on either I40 or I70, then you owe yourself the side trip.
(No, I neither work for the Cosmosphere nor own any interest in it.)
If you are interested, drop me a line in my journal, and I'll give you more detailed advise.
www.eFax.com are spammers
no, it would violate the treaties enforces at the conclusion of world war 2.
Which reminds me...
The Moon is slowly getting a little bit further from Earth with each orbit (has to do with gravitational effects of tidal bulges, but I digress). Knowing the rate (carefully determined by measurments using the laser reflectors left on the Moon by the Apollo missions), we can extrapolate backwards to determine that, approximately 65 million years ago, the Moon orbited at a distance of about 35 feet.
Which explains the extinction of the dinosaurs.
Or at least, the tall ones.
-- Alastair
Why aren't we skiing on Mars?
No vert.
see, if you can control the vocabulary you can control the debate. You can even declare who wins, depending on what "win" means.
If I had mod points, I'd give you one right there.
As far as my comment goes, my telling you to read the article was tounge-in-cheek, since obviously India is NOT building a human pyramid to the moon.
I just write what the little voices tell me to... ;)
you're right. the solution is to squash the capitalist pigs and bring everyone under a benevolent totalitarian reign of terror and destroy the environment. Yuppies of the world unite!
If Nikita Krushchev hadn't been a class traitor engaged in an extraterrestrial pissing match with the evil capitalist Kennedy, we might all be happy comrades by now, even the subhuman brown skins.
(disclaimer: I'm an Indian)
About 10 years back while I was still in Engineering college we had a great "scandal" about Russia being arm twisted by the USA to not provide India with cryogenic rocket engine technology to launch remote sensing satellites. It was feared that India would develop missile technology and perhaps ICBMs.
So the problem is this. No engine. No rocket. No satelite aka no space program. And on top of that no Crays to model simulations etc. The man who said "screw this" was Dr. Kalam. The man that threw caution to wind and aligned the bureaucratic/lazy govt agencies to do this.
- Develop an indigenous super computer
- Develop a liquid fuel rocket
- Put a satelite in orbit
Some years later CDAC developed PARAM supercomputer followed by ANUPAM. These inexpensive machines were put to task to solve whole bunch of vibration related problems that used to send test rockets crashing into Bay of Bengal. Quote from a news item "Likewise, the PSLV too failed on its first ever launch on September 20, 1993. The then ISRO chairman, Dr U R Rao, said this was because of a software error in the pitch control loop of the on-board guidance and control processor." There were still more problems with the re-entry stage etc.
The supercomputers enabled some new materials research and first success was almost 10 years later
PSLV (Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle). India then proceeded to deploy remote sensing satellites in orbit without depending on the French Ariane program at 1/7th the cost.
Out of this came the four Indian missiles long-range Agni (fire), medium range Akash (sky), surface-to-surface Prithvi (earth) and anti-tank Nag (cobra) and the now infamous nukes.
The satellite deployment capability bothers EU and Australia because it is clearly the loss of some "easy money". India has not yet offered satellite launching services, but for those prices even Jamaica can put a bird in the sky. At the moment ISRO toils at the GSLV (Geo Synchronous Launch Vehicle). So far they have not had any success.
This new announcement of moon shot is exciting and a cause of concern. While India has put enough weather satellites it still is ransomed by abnormal weather patterns drought, floods et al Nonetheless it's a matter of pride or rather amazement for me to witness any govt dept doing anything straight over there. Dr. Kalam is now the president of India. President of India is as we call a ceremonious office quite like the Queen of England. So I am sure the Hindu fanatic party leading the govt now is not any progressive but I am optimistic that a secular govt will be elected soon and our rocket man is in the right place trying to crack a tougher cookie. Maybe it's time for the land of zero, decimal and exponent to earn some Karma.
I'd imagine that there's a lot of money to be made launching satellites. The south of India is only about 10 degrees north of the equator, so I'd have thought they'd be in a reasonable position to launch. A mission to the moon seems like a good way to get things going - getting a probe out there would probably give investors the confidence they need to trust their satellites to an Indian launch system.
People seem to be criticising India for doing such things when they still have many problems with poverty, but it seems to be that they are moving in the right direction - concentrating hard on getting an increasingly skilled workforce, and moving beyond doing just blue-collar work. Yes, they have poverty to address, but they need the economy, education and skilled jobs available to move people out of poverty.
What did she (it? he?) do this time??? :)
That doesn't preclude the fact that your grammar sux0rs. The sentences you wrote in Spanish and French are incorrect as well.
Cheers!
E (who speaks, reads and writes in English, Spanish, Russian and French)
http://eugeneciurana.com | http://ciurana.eu
These countries will all go and colonize other bodies in the solar system, and then the colonies will rebel and become sovereign nations. So the flag that was painted on the side of the rocket that got them there is pretty much irrelevant.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
Personally, I think nationalism is rather fun. In most cases it's what makes this site tolerable to read. I suppose you are the type of person who goes to a soccer/football/baseball/chess match hoping for a tie so that nobody's feelings are hurt?
I'm not a PC type, but it seems a real waste of attention space to post obvious, dumb, and unfair gags.
"Inviting major flames?" I'd mod you up, but I already posted on this topic.
Memo to Indian rocket scientists: You can't EAT national pride!
How about working to make sure the Indian population is adequately fed before striking out to plant flags elsewhere in the solar system?
If the Indian government funds this, they must have caught priorities-ass-backwardsitis from the US government.
~Philly
Racial stereotyping humour gets modded up to 5 on Slashdot now does it?
How are India and Pakistan second world states? Pakistan for sure would rate as third-world in my book if I had to live there, and India isn't much different in most places. Ok, they both developed nukes but not much else. And they developed those nukes to nuke each other, and may very well use them for that purpose (what else would they use them for)? That doesn't mean that they aren't squalid, impoverished countries with typical third-world problems. How would YOU define "second world"?
I think it's important to note that most nations would not do a Mars trip because they were altruistic, but because they know it would be a mighty display of technological, and yes military power. Especially India. If they do it, it will be nothing more than a display of military might, plain and simple
Excuse me for being so dense but why "especially India"? Why India in particular? Are Indians (or people with brown skin in general) particulary predisposed to using major scientific and technological advances as a means of promoting their "military might" and their strategic national intests?
Any more so than the US, the old USSR, or even China? Was the space race of the 50's, 60's and 70's an altruistic exercise? Or was it one giant propaganda exercise?
How much more did we advance our knowledge of the solar system, etc during the Apollo space programme? Did we learn anything significant that previous unmanned missions hadn't already told us? Anything that another series of unmanned missions could have taught us at a fraction of the cost of the manned missions? A: Scientifically, none whatsoever.
It's laughable that you label the future intentions of another nation as an unnecessary show of strength when, as an American (and I bet that you are indeed an American), you're a citizen of the only nation to ever drop a nuclear bomb. Twice. On a civilian population.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
"Oh look, you can still see the US flag blowing in the lunar wind! Let's take it down!"
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
Holy moley! NASA's launching stuff for free now?! Wow! I oughta build me one
of them satellite thingies.
First, you're saying $82M is cheap for the moon, but we're spending the same amount going to Mars? Hello? I'll assume that was a typo, but in which direction, I have no idea. I'm also betting the final price will be way above $82M. They always are.
Second, I think the author was pointing out that some sort of public programs could be developed instead of dividing $82M by 1B people (the "scientific and intellectual prowess" comment). I know I'll be cashing that 8 cent check right away! And I have to agree here-- When a very large percentage of your populace is living in abject poverty, you better have bigger plans than just planting a flag on the moon as part of an international pissing contest.
Finally, I'm betting the only way they're planning to staying under $90M is by using existing off the shelf components, not making everything from scratch like the Apollo missions. Sure, the chassis and lander is going to have to be buildt from scratch, but the electronics? I find it hard to believe they're going to design new and revolutionary hardware like you described for the Minuteman. The Apollo missions cost damn near $10-20 billion. And that's in 1960s money. (Minuteman 3 cost around $10M from developement to launch as a comparison).
If they can do it (assuming they do it at all) for $83M, more power to em. They'll do something one of the most industrialized and successful nations (with an excellent average standard of living to boot) wasn't able to do in the 1960s, let alone today....
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Racial stereotyping humour gets modded up to 5 on Slashdot now does it?
Racial stereotyping? You bet. I admire the hell out of the folks who work at my local Chinese take outs. They work at one of the toughest jobs I can think of; they get into work about 10am and get ready for the day. Stand behind the stove for 12 hours in the insane heat. Get home around 2AM. I worked at at Burger King in my youth and thought that was bad, but I wouldn't last two days in a Chinese take-out.
I've driven through towns where the only "non-Americans" were the family running the restaurant. I stop in, talk to them, ask them where they're from. In these towns, I've gotten the feeling that those running the restaurant were admired for their work ethic, and have done more to increase cultural awareness than anything the goverment has ever done.
I considered it a humorous tribute to the Chinese take-out pioneers who have started businesses in small towns across the country, in places that when I was FOB, full of negative stereotypes of the American "good ol' boys", would have feared to walk.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
"This is a country that has serious problems regarding poverty and overpopulation."
It almost sounds you want the money to fund Project Soylent Green.
While I agree with the idea of spending a little on space R&D instead of blowing it all on social reform programs (who needs a bunch of people who can all get along hunky-dory if none of them have ever seen a telephone?)...
"How many Americans are without health insurance?
How many Americans are in jail?
How many Americnas suffer from obesity?"
My GOD man, do you see what you're calling "poor?" I've never really been out of the US but at least I know that being here in the thick of it can really skew your viewpoint. We live in a country where the vast majority of the people below the so-called "poverty line" own a car, a television and a microwave oven! Poor people in India don't even have a damned wall socket (if they have a wall!) to plug a television into, let alone the knowledge of how to use one (not like they've ever seen one before...).
What you're referring to as India's "middle class" is the slice of their population that can best relate to "middle class in the US." In the vast majority of the rest of the world, that's called "upper class."
"Because they're (in many cases) either not very bright or just lazy, which I suspect is what most of us get riled by."
;-)
Good thing for the phrase in parenthesis, otherwise you might seem like an elitist snob (not).
But actually, the possessive 'its' is one of the few exceptions to the possessive "add apostrophe 's'" rule. I was still making that mistake in my senior year of high school until a teacher corrected me.
And given that many people posting to slashdot probably haven't graduated from high school yet, I think making mistakes like these is okay.
But I have a question. Is European culture typically hung up on grammer like that? In the states, for the most part we don't care as long as we're able to communicate effectively.
At least, thats my experience
Excuse me for being so dense but why "especially India"? Why India in particular? Are Indians (or people with brown skin in general) particulary predisposed to using major scientific and technological advances as a means of promoting their "military might" and their strategic national intests?
Because India is a secular democratic republic currently being threatened by Pakistan, a brutal Islamic dictatorship with an appalling human rights record, and birthplace of many Islamic extremists including members of the Taliban and al-Queda. If they can convince the Pakistanis (and Iranians, etc) that attacking India would be foolhardy due to India's technological and economic superiority, that's far better than a war starting and nukes being fired back and forth.
Any more so than the US, the old USSR, or even China? Was the space race of the 50's, 60's and 70's an altruistic exercise? Or was it one giant propaganda exercise?
Are you saying it's OK when the USA did it, but not when India does? What are you trying to say? The West won the Cold War by forcing the Soviets to bankrupt themselves trying to compete, rather than military force. Is that a bad thing?
It's laughable that you label the future intentions of another nation as an unnecessary show of strength when, as an American (and I bet that you are indeed an American), you're a citizen of the only nation to ever drop a nuclear bomb. Twice. On a civilian population.
Really, a nuke is tame compared to what happened in German, Russian and Japanese concentration camps. It was more important to end the war quickly. If the Indian strategy plays out, they won't need to go to war with Pakistan.
For God's sake don't tell Dubya, he'll decide it hampers the War Against Terrorism and order it abrogated.
</troll>
--
No Pope Here! (Wall slogan in protestant Belfast)
- Lucky old Pope. (Short-lived addition)
India is planning an unmanned mission to Luna in 2007. The US, Russia (when it was the USSR), and Japan are the only nations to have done so, or so they say. For some reason, I thought that ESA, the European Space Agency, had sent one also.
Nope, the ESA has never had a lunar mission, however we are currently building SMART-1 which is due to be ready in early 2003, and will be launched as an Ariane-5 auxiliary payload.
SMART-1 is actually a testbed platform for the ESA's Solar Electric Propulsion system, with the primary goal being to test this and other technologies that will be useful for deep space missions, however the craft will carry both X-ray and IR spectrometers for inspecting the lunar surface.
Al.The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker
I think you missed my point. I didn't say that it's right for India (or any nation) to use force, or the threat of force to achieve its agenda.
I didn't say that promoting their "military might", especially in the current political climate is to be applauded.
I'm not suggesting that stirring up nationalist sentiments and whipping the general population into a feeding frenzy is a particularly good thing.
What I said was, in response to the original poster's comments that this was true "especially [of] India" is that is true of all nations.
In my response I used the example of the Cold War but all of the above - the use of force, the projection of military might, the rampant nationalism - is just as true of the US today as it was in the paranoid "reds-under-the-beds" 50's and 60's.
And what's really ironic, is that the natural inference of the original poster's comments is that India is an overtly aggressive nation just itching for a fight.
Who knows, perhaps it is. But here are a few facts: despite suffering several attacks on its own soil by suspected muslim terrorist* groups, including the murder of innocent men, women and children, a direct assault on its parliament, US and other foreign embassies, India has shown a great deal of restraint and has not resorted to using its "military might" to strike at terrorists beyond its own borders. It's used politics, via forums such as the UN, rather than force to pressure Pakistan to stop providing a safe haven for the terrorists*.
Compare and contrast that to the US reaction to similar circumstances. Now tell me who looks like the more violent nation.
As an aside, I find it incredulous that you can defend dropping nukes on civilians at all. The US aim, showing Japan that they had a weapon of mass destruction that could bring it to its knees, have been acheived by dropping the nukes on military rather than civilian targets - or even on an unpopulated region.
(That you defend the use of nukes by saying that it's not so bad compared to a concentration camp is laughable. A few paragraphs earlier you were making a point that just because the US did something bad during the Cold War it doesn't mean that India should do it too - isn't the same true here?)
Hypocrisy. The greatest luxury. Raise the double standard.
(* As someone famous once said, "terrorist" is what the big army calls the little army. Feel free to interchange the word with the phrase "freedom fighter", I do. But "terrorist" is just so much more interesting and sensationalist n'est pas?)
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
"Wrong - the standard of living in Indian cities is generally pretty close to what it is in the US - thus sayeth the guy from India who works 5 feet away from me."
How about outside the cities? What of the suburbs? Are there even any? Does civilization seemingly disappear ten miles outside of the city?
A middle class isn't defined by "just like the middle class in the US," it's defined by the class that's supposed to be between the rich and the poor. If the rich live in the cities and the poor live everywhere else with very little dividing the two, it's pretty safe to say that there is no meaningful middle class.
If you are awaiting another person to land on the moon. Do a search on China and moon landing. Or go to www.spacedaily.com
China has plans in place to be the next nation to have a man land on the moon.
~ kjrose