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Support Your Local ... DNUG?
Akallabeth, the Arch-Lich writes: "New to town, I was trolling around for a LUG or two, and found this. Find your own DNUG here. Now, I can see the need for a support group for .NET users group, as no one really knows what it does. But, an UG founded by for-profit companies? That are Microsoft Certified Partners? With prize givaways listed on the meeting schedule? Something don't smell right. Oh, and they have banner ads too." However genuine or organized, local "support groups" seem like a good idea to me. Maybe we could all go toss a frisbee?
I don't see the problem. You admit that there's a need for .NET user groups. Who cares that they're run by for-profit groups or by Microsoft partners ? I don't even care if they charge people to use them, since nothing is preventing anyone from starting a "free", more traditional user's group. If there's a need, it's GREAT to see it being served - however it happens. Do you have a problem with Open-source companies charging for their consulting time ?
Geez, ten seconds and I'm already a troll.... dosen't ANYBODY watch Monty Python's flying circus?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?
I'm done with sigs. Sigs are lame.
Get your sandwich boards and banners ready!
.net people's physical locations we can show up and protest!
Now that we know the
Why protest? Because we don't like anything Microsoft!
No... really... a better idea would be to show up and hand out slackware and debian CD's.
Get your Unix fortune now!
Wow. Someone has far too much time on his hands!
LUGs attract people to Linux... usually just out of shee curiosity... I imagine that Micro$oft et al. are trying to accomplish much the same thing with their DNUG in terms of attracting people to .NET... even if only out of sheer curiosity...I mean, after all, how many install nights has your LUG had??
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
I don't remember anyone making a big stink when US Robotics started Palm User Groups. What's the big deal? It's not like people are being snatched off the street and forced to attend these groups as if they were "political re-education camps." Besides...who else would be better suited to start such groups...Red Hat?? No, maybe Oracle...uh, no...AOL?
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
This doesn't really seem all that strange to me. My mother was a member of DECUS (Digital Equipment Corporation Users Society) in the early 1970s. When I tried to go to their homepage, I was sent to encompassus.com -- encompass is HP's user group.
There are lots of these out there. Just because it's for profit doesn't mean that it can't have a community behind it.
Bill
I'm a senior developer for the company I work for and I've been using .NET for just over 2 months. Management has it in their heads that they want to move our web-based contract negotiation software to .NET in the next year or so, somehow we have to get everyone up to speed on .NET as fast as possible. DNUG sounds like an ideal way of getting people started.
"Something don't smell right"
I hear that bias clogs ones sinus cavities.
crazy dynamite monkey
I think we should encourage user groups such as these instead of critisizing them. While the .NET technology is not of the same quality of what comes out of the loins of the Open Source developer community, it is a good start by MS.
By allowing the free sharing of code and information among MS developers, most of them will see the appeal that the global Open Source developer community offers.
Wearing pants should always be optional.
The community resource of the open-source community has long been one of the selling points of Linux and BSD. You don't necessarily have to pay for an expensive support contract when you can ask experts on listservs, newsgroups, and irc. I think Microsoft's just trying to eliminate reasons for choosing open source. It's a trend. You don't like proprietary solutions? Portions of .NET are submitted to ECMA to eliminate open source's claim to industry standards. Want a strong advocacy community? Microsoft pays for them. The Borg do nothing but assimilate.
http://starboard.flowtheory.net/
Many of the comments have been of the form "$OtherCompany has created UGs for $OtherProduct, so what's the big deal?" And I agree, if that is all this is, then more power to them.
However, given Microsoft's long history of AstroTurfing, I think folks are right to be suspicious of this - is this real grassroots support or is this manicured AstroTurf?
Remember, real grass gets weeds, Astroturf doesn't. If these are REAL UG's, then there will be plenty of "Hey, this (doesn't work | sucks | is too hard)" type complaints, both in the meetings and on the web sites. If this is AstroTurf, then it will be all smiles and roses and drink the KoolAid, and Microsoft will point to these pseudo-UGs and say "See all the support you get from the user community? Just like Open Source!"
www.eFax.com are spammers
We have product give-away door prizes at our local Linux Users Group. Next month the give-away is Yellow Dog Linux CDs.
The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
There are also Java User Groups going up all over as well, and have been for several years. I'm not sure if they were founded by Sun or are funded by them, but Sun does have a website listing info about them, and it seems there are currently 954 of them.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Actually they're 12-Step programs...
Picture a dozen people on folding chairs in a church basement. A guy stands up.
Guy: "Hi, I'm Larry. I'm a dot net user..."
Group: "Hi Larry!"
Sorry -that just popped into my head when I saw that it was a DNUG - I figured it was for people who wanted to stop using it.
Forgive me, it's late here...
Cheers,
Jim
-- My Weblog.
Sure, ther presentations are going to be slanted toward ".NET good, everything else bad". And there's nothing wrong with that! Any rational consumer is going to expect a slant at ANY user group. It's not "astroturfing" or propaganda, it's giving the people what they want! You aren't going to see "How XP Saved My Life" at at a LUG, either.
If the sponsor does not organize well and provide good content, the members are free to vote with their feet; and almost certainly will.
Bringing likeminded geeks together is a good thing. (As long as there is adequate ventilation!)Would you have the same reaction to say, IBM sponsoring a LUG?
Not so much a sig as a lack of one.
Get'em all, from Slashdot too :-):
sgis ddo ekil t'nod i
this is the way of the world. get out of your linux controlled closet. when I worked for an now out of date Unix provider (next) we were encouraged to form UGs in our various areas.
Maybe if there are enough people in Microsoft's .NET user groups, they'll actually be able to discover:
Then again, looking at the list of possible topics for future meetings for the Toronto DNUG, that might be being too optimistic.
--Dave
Although this post is not great it is not flamebait. I am getting the idea that some people are censoring /. by modding down anything they find that is critical or pokes fun out of something they want to promote. The mod guidelines point out that you should should use your mod points to mod up rather than down and no where does it suggest using those points to censor.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
I assume you're in Toronto because you linked to a Toronto DNUG. In that case, what you were looking for is the TLUG.
true && more || less
after DNUG's there will be the Palladium Users Groups, which will have many members the first meeting but few if any the second meeting after all of them are arrested for copyright violations for trying to listen to their MP3's while programming.
D'OH!!!
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
Technically, it wasn't too great. My experience with Microsoft is that they give technical seminars on their products based on how they're supposed to work, rather than how they really work. Case in point: we asked about a specific memory allocation feature in SQL Server 7 that a number of the 20 or so people in the room couldn't get to work the way it was supposed to work. Well, he kept saying, "The official Microsoft position is that it works as designed." Finally, after some great amount of poressure from everyone in the room he said, "Okay, I'm going to cover my Microsoft badge and say yes, it has a lot of problems. Now I'll uncover my badge and say it works as designed."
Overall, though, it was a good presentation on a little-used feature of SQL Server. We also, inadvertently, found out why it was little-used. The best part was, by far, the ability to network with other SQL Sever admins from other companies and compare notes on strategies and work-arounds. All products have bugs and work-arounds; the problem is that Microsoft staunchly refuses to acknowledge them in their official literature. That's why there are independant support forums (like the excellent http://www.swynk.com) to deal with them.
So the user groups are a good idea-- even if (or especially if) they don't exactly fit Microsoft's vision of what they want them to accomplish.
1. Why the logo is look like hebrew writing?
2. why DNUG in Malaysia operated by microsoft employee Ramesh Rajandran t-ramesr_at_microsoft.com
-- Hasbullah bin Pit (sebol)
I'm all against "Microsoft" crap in general okay? I think it's scary what they do as a corporation and that they act without conscience. I think the U.S. Department of Justice is really dragging their feet and with the help of other governmental agencies, will simply get away with their criminal behavior.
That is my preface opinion of Microsoft.
That said, I have to defend their 'free speech' rights and rights to assemble. Sure, it's "unpopular speech" but unpopular is based on which circle you find yourself in the middle of, not any universal moral code.
Furthermore, I dislike MOST "UG's" because they too closely resemble "church services." I've visited a few LUG meetings and the only thing missing were there random "ahmen brother!" responses from the audience. Slashdot is smelling of the same disease right now.
Let them do their DNUG. It's in everyone's best interest that freedom of speech and assembly be preserved. Respect the rights of others or you will surely find your own in jeopardy.
Oh wait... damn mozilla. Bannerblind is filtering them out again.
ObOntopicQuestion: Shoud we have a DGUG (Dot Gnu Users Group) then?
I thought I saw DUNG -- and I thought to myself "Now THAT is M$!" -- damn dyslexia...
Karma whorin' since 1999
This is a good read for those criticizing MS for supporting UGs.
Remember... ZG9uJ3QgZm9yZ2V0IHRvIGRyaW5rIHlvdXIgb3ZhbHRpbmU=
Oh, and they have banner ads too
Sounds like something you would see on the top of your page right now. Banner ads on slashdot? Oh my! I guess slashdot could be considered a SLUG. Slashdot Linux Users Group...
-Tolerate my intolerance
well they might not be too fussed... but it works well for me ;)
--
"we live in a post-ideological world..." - Billy Bragg.
And of course, they'll be PUG-ugly!
Sorry.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Computer software or systems user groups have been around for a long time. There were often strong connections between the user groups and the company the groups.
Digital, IBM, and others used to give the source of EOL's software to their user groups to distribute. Company sales reps would demonstrate new product releases or use user groups as customer feedback groups.
Corporations want that kind of support, involvement, and buy-in from their user base and it is worth a fair amount of financial support to user groups to get it.
Leto (ivo at distributed dot net)
<grub> Reading
And the FPs'll be trying to deal with M$ (and M$'s habit of co-opting, folding, melding or simply stealing [plenty of evidence and M$ losses in court to that effect,] the competition's app.s, changing the OS specs [when the FPs can even get them,]) and trying desperately to become rich as Creosus themselves in an era when the world has come to see software for what software really is: overhead.
Software for profit is a mug's game and they're hurtin'. They NEED (ab)user's groups.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Let's see, I go to a Java User's Group that was started by a for-profit company and still hosts the meeting.
IBM, BEA, et al come in and give away free goodies.
Sun supports and advertises the Java User Groups, and provides ways to find them.
But I guess you think it's okay because it's NOT Microsoft.
Would you have the same reaction to say, IBM sponsoring a LUG?
If IBM sponsored a LUG, it would be because IBM's employees are Linux users. They would not promote any IBM product exclusively. It would work like any other company-sponsored UG.
An ISP I used to work for hosted PLUG's meetings for a few months. The company was not promoting anything, they were simply letting PLUG use their facilities and network connection. Of course, this creates goodwill towards the ISP among PLUG members, which brings the company more money.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Whenever I read stuff like this I am reminded that most Slashdotters are fairly young and have little idea of what has been common practice for decades in the computer industry. Microsoft has had user groups for most of their products for years in fact the there's a link to finding local Microsoft user groups right of the MSDN front page.
In fact you don't have to take my word for it or that of MSDN, why not just Google for 'Microsoft "user group"' see how many thousand hits come back.
ObLegalDisclaimer: I work for Microsoft but this post represents my opinions and does not necessarily reflect the thoughts, opinions, strategies or plans of my employer
God, I saw this and thought it said "DUNG"! Of course, now that I know what it's about I still see DUNG.
... who thinks it's just sad that the parent post is modded as "Interesting"
yes, some people are doing that. and that's what /. allows, even if it wasn't what it was designed for. it's only censorship if the moderators dig into your user file and increase your threshhold above -1. you are browsing at -1, aren't you? if you're not, remember that that's the default, and _you_ changed it.
If opportunity came disguised as temptation, one knock would be enough.
3^2 * 67^1 * 977^1
Yes, lets play frisbee, over there in the meltroom, where I will MELT YOU INTO FLUID!
Courtesy of Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Episode 6, "Space Conflict from Beyond Pluto". Watch Cartoon Network at 11:45 p.m. (or catch the entire Adult Swim block Sunday night!)
The race is not always to the swift or the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. (or something like that)
It is not the case that EVERYTHING Microsoft does is completely bad.
EVERYTHING Microsoft does IS NOT bad!
Sure, they've done stuff in the past that WAS WRONG,
Sure, they've done stuff in the past that you don't like,
but it is possible that they might do something not wrong.
but it doesn't mean everything they do is wrong.
How to make something 99.44% wrong sound like it's right THIS TIME.
It is not the case that EVERYTHING Microsoft does is completely bad.
Surely there exists an example. Conspicouous by its absence.
Sounds to suspiciously like the above subject, I think I'll save my sinuses trouble and avoid the meetings...
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
I have my threshold set to 3, and as I write this there are 9 comments - 1 "Funny" and 8 that are saying in one way or another "Big Deal."
.NET where the only thing they'll learn is how to adopt Micro$oft technology. Maybe we should form anti-support groups where we can get together and talk about ways in which we can sqash the competition (competition == Micro$oft if you haven't been paying attention) by using laws and contracts!
Come on, imagine what it must be like to be a Slashdot editor. It's a hard job trying to stir up controversy day-in and day-out. Then to post something like that and see everyone respond "oh, big deal" must break their hearts!
So here, timothy, this one if for you:
Yeah, how dare Micro$oft do this! User groups were founded in the spirit of helping people learn things that they could do with their computer without influence of commercialism (except when hardware and software vendors would be invited to give talks). They're just trying to suck people into
(I can't believe I just wasted 10 minutes writing that when I know it will be modded down as troll)
Them vs. Us is a pointless game to play. You're better off smoking crack. At least you'll meet interesting people.
_______
2B1ASK1
He apparently doesn't remember the 80s. :-)
.NET is different enough from the mainstream that new user groups might well be useful. Lo and behold, they are springing from the woodwork. It is exceptionally unlikely that this is a plot... there ARE people in the world who like Microsoft, you know, and manufacturer support of user groups just makes basic sense.
There have been user groups for computers since computers first started selling to the public. There is nothing even vaguely sinister about this. And it was very common for the manufacturer of a given computer to support user groups. They are free training and advocacy... what intelligent manufacturer wouldn't?
Users loved them, because there were usually classes and other people having similar problems... it was a way to be social and learn all at the same time. And back when you could buy several different sorts of computer, it also gave you some emotional comfort... here were other people in the same boat you were in, either sinking or swimming along with you.
They're not that common anymore because of the computing monoculture we have, but
We have never collected or spent money and have had speakers from nearly every major vendor (Microsoft, twice, even -- I'm sure they're still regretting it) as well as many presentations from members of the group.
By far our best-attended meeting was a recent visit from the JBoss group.
I have seen other groups of this sort die quickly simply because they were following a more closed model, or were attempting to collect dues, or impose a particular vision on the members.
Only time will tell if .NET is a powerful conceptual framework upon which good open-source solutions can be built, or if it is just another lockin tool for our friends in Redmond. When I want to take a measurement of this, I'm sure the most enjoyable way will be to show up at a DNUG or two and keep my eyes and ears open.
How can people mock things, without knowing what they are mocking? Usually this never stands, but because its Microsoft it's ok? C'mon, if you dont know what .NET does, you should take 2 minutes and figure it out.
.NET at this moment.
There's thousands of people developing applications for
If Microsoft is giving away free nugs, I'm signed up.
I hear the stuff they grow up in that part of the country is pretty dank.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
There have been user groups since before linux existed....
.Net user group - if there are users then why not ?
I have belonged or belong to Progress user Groups (PUG), Windows NT User Groupsd, Windows 2000 user groups, (these actually supported by MS), Mac user groups, Unix user groups (SCO used to have some good ones) and many many others.
user groups are not just the preserve of Linux or OSS - this is a sorry indictment on the age of Slashdot Staffers and not worthy of a front page post - so what is there is a
Please post some actual news and insight instead of this ok.
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
It's not necessarily about the idea of a user group, it is moreover the idea of deception. I would not mind a Microsoft supported User Group as long as Microsoft states that they have a supported a User Group. It is the idea of group scams, like smokers coalitions by the tobacco companies, or the lumber industry protection groups supported by the lumber industry. These were not formed by concerned, empathetic, sympathetic, or caring people but by money and then presented as a user group in such a way that people would assume that there is grass root support for things like that. It is a matter of tricky Hill & Knowlton style marketting, not a matter of personal freedom or rights.
Just to make this clear. DNUG is not associated with MS. Developed it by myself 1.5 years ago, in a couple days, to learn about web services. I host it on my poor mans server out of my apartment, with the only motivation for profit being to help me and a friend find work. A number of groups have used it as a starting point before they set up their own web site. It was cool over a year ago, but now it is DUNG as somebody else pointed out. The idea is still cool, but my implementation has aged as a chunk of .NET best practices have emerged. The only code updates I have done since then has been to migrate it from beta 1 to release, and to fix bugs that people point out. Have found other stuff more interesting to work on: brains-N-brawn.com. I believe the preferred MS user group site is ineta.org. Working on a new dev article now, that has a chance of making an appearance on this board in a couple weeks. Later
I disagree, but that's OK, because apparently Chasuk disagrees, too:
Then, although blank_coil and I seem to be saying the same thing, and although Chasuk has just agreed with blank_coil about the use of P2P software, Chasuk then says,
which is where I get lost. At this point I would normally say that Chasuk is spending too much of his life reading other people's
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
I am one of the leaders for the Dallas .NET Users Group (http://ddnug.net). We would never have been able to get on our feet were it not for the 'Commercial' companies that sponsored the group.
Our number one goal is to make the user group free to all members. We have pizza and drinks at each meeting, and facilities provided by the same corporate sponsors that got us up and running.
We provide advertising space to our sponsors in return for their donations. We allow a brief 'marketing' explanation at the beginning of a meeting for the sponsors to get their money's worth.
I have not heard one member complain about the way we run the group so far. Either this is because they are happy with our structure, or their mouths are too full of sponsor provided pizza to comment.
(When do they start handing out the free MS goodies?)
Your Servant, B. Baggins
ANYONE can create a group! I created my very own, right here.
Click the "Create a group" and have some fun.
seen how many DNUGs there are that say either ".NET Sucks" or "Linux Rulz." Man, do people have nothing better to do or what? Who cares if they setup DNUGs? It's not like you are forced to go and they strap you into a chair and play Microsoft promo movies while your eyes are taped open! Although....I prob shouldn't give them any ideas.
Hard work usually pays off over time, but procrastination pays off now.