Internet Phones Replacing POTS In Japan

prostoalex writes: "CNN reports on growth of Internet phone services in Japan. The high cost of telephone calls, which many saw as an impediment to spread of the Internet is right now actually a menace to plain old phone companies, as more and more people are switching to VoIP services."

Comments

Replacing pot?

[NanoGator]

I guess replacing it's easier than legalizing it.

duh...

[trapvector]

it's about time. especially in a place where people are as concentrated as they are in japan, there should be much more focus on next-gen wireless service and far fewer telephone poles and lines strung between buildings.

welcome to the 21st century.

Re:duh...

[stuuf]

Remember those little movies the computer companies always showed us during the mid-1990's?
In the year 2000, our homes will be controlled by computers, we will all have wireless internet, etc.
None of that actually happenned, only more subtle things like internet phones.

Overload.

[AgTiger]

So now someone's telephone can be slashdotted?

Re:Overload.

[Anonymous Coward]

not if you make a beowulf cluster out of em...

Re:Overload.

[Anonymous Coward]

Negative... you can create a DoS effect on standard POTS too -- however such knowledge is not as far spread...

Re:Overload.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's easy to DoS a standard POTS line.

Here's an example:

Everyone that read this, dial 210-226-3232. It'll go poof.

Well that's a relief..

[spectral]

I was worried since i'm going to Japan on Sunday for a year abroad, that I'd be stuck offline for an entire year. If internet phones are big enough to threaten traditional phones over there, I guess I probably don't have to worry too much about that.

Re:Well that's a relief..

[frostgiant]

Uhhh... How much exactly do you know about Japan?

Re:Well that's a relief..

[spectral]

Well, I originally didn't think so, but then when I got accepted in to the program, all the literature pretty much said "Don't count on having internet access" etc.. mentioned the high cost of electricity and telephone calls as the major reasons for this. Therefore, I was kind of worrying.

Re:Well that's a relief..

[spectral]

But dial-up access costs a fortune. (Score:1)
by stef0x77 on Tuesday August 20, @05:37PM (#4107654)
(User #529972 Info | http://slashdot.org/)

OTOH, because of the high phone costs, dial up access to the internet in Japan is insanely expensive. An impediment to getting online for many people.

(it's posts like this that made/make me worry)

Re:Well that's a relief..

[zzztkf]

Which are will you live?
As you are going to live about a year,
subscribe ADSL. it's widely
available and higher quality than in U.S.
as far as I know(I'm Japanese and have
friends in California.). Most provider
are servicing 8Mbps and 12Mbps.

Second option(if ADSL isn't available) is
to use wireless internet service called
Air H". it proviedes 128k connection
w/ flat rate.

Both cover most of mets area.

Yes, traditional dial up connection is
expensive in Japan. but ADSL and wireless
connection became so popular, less and
less people are depending on it. I personally
don't use dial-up anymore.

Re:Well that's a relief..

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as you're within range of an exchange, you can get 1.5 Mbps ADSL for about 30 dollars. You only have to worry if you're out in the country.

Re:Well that's a relief..

[Com2Kid]

Yes, traditional dial up connection is
expensive in Japan. but ADSL and wireless
connection became so popular, less and
less people are depending on it. I personally
don't use dial-up anymore.

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that ADSL (which, unless Japan is even more funky then I previously knew about) which runs over POTS, is cheaper to get then just a plain old POTS dial up line?

Bleck, VoIP isn't /naturally/ cheaper, it is just highly artificial market conditions that make it that way in some places. Bleck. POTS is about as low tech and old as you can get. (of course I am speaking as a US citizen, with the recent trend towards flat rate /long distance/ that is now getting started over here I admit that we here in the US are a tad wee bit spoiled. :-D )

Re:Well that's a relief..

[spectral]

i'm living with a host family, attending kansai gaidai, so I'll be around that area. I don't know the family yet, but I don't think they'll want me subscribing to anything while over there :) Also, since my car broke down halfway through the summer, I couldn't get a laptop, so I won't even have my own computer while over there..

Re:Well that's a relief..

[zero2k]

Japan has great deals on ADSL. My gf is currently over there and she's on ADSL. Her current setup is with the KCN isp which charges her Y2200/month on top of NTT's (line provider) charges (can't recall how much per month, but less than Y2000/month - read somewhere Y900/month). The biggest charge will be the connection fee from NTT who charge you depending on the location you're at and what type of line you want (data only, or data+voice, etc). My gf was charged Y10000 for this.

She lives away from the POP a little so she only achieves 3Mbps, but it seems pretty fast enough for most things.

Oh, before you can do anything useful, you should get your Alien registration ASAP. This will allow you to setup the internet connection and bank account amongst other things.

A little note about ADSL, most ISPs will rent/sell you a modem with NAT capability (it assigns your computer with a private IP address). and support for MS's uPNP. The modem configuration will most likely be in pure Japanese. You might want a modem that allows a direct 1-1 address translation so that you can run some comms apps without trouble.

They also have some really nice looking computer systems over there, small and slick. The only problem is that those machines most likely have japanese keyboards (the notebooks mainly - and you can't really change the buttons to US/English)...

To the spectral: have a nice trip.

Re:Well that's a relief..

[zzztkf]

I was in Kansai area about 15 year ago.

Laptops are less expensive in Japan if you
don't mind Japanese keyboard.

If ADSL isn't available please consider Air
H" service. There are other wireless service
which are not flat rate including voice service.

Yes dialup cost is awesome in Japan.

Re:Well that's a relief..

[spectral]

I was thinking about doing that actually (Getting a laptop while over there..) I've heard about the Akihabara area in Tokyo as being a good place to shop, but I'm thinking that a place known for electronics might have higher prices, not lower, sicne people are already there with intent to buy. Of course I'll check it out though, but I was wondering if you had any personal suggestions for places to buy from?

Slashdot, however, isn't really an easy place for long conversations, so if you use aim, IM me (spectral42) or ICQ: 8394036.

To people who think it'd be funny to harass me, i'll just block you, it doesn't bother me :)

Re:Well that's a relief..

[elixx]

I would like to know the outcome, and if you decide to purchase a laptop, where you found or have heard of better prices.
I might want to take a trip in a few years. I'm sure prices and such will fluctuate much by then, but hopefully a sweet spot remains a sweet spot...

Re:Well that's a relief..

[spectral]

well after talking to him on aim, he mentioned a couple places.. he said he hasn't seen any place like akihabara outside of japan, but in the kansai area check out Nippon-bashi.

For specific stores, he mentioned Yodobashi Camera, BICCAMERA, and Joshin Denki. he also pointed me to two sites (japanese only) www.kakaku.com, and www.yodobashi.com

I've been browsing around kakaku and some of those places have pretty decent prices. He said the problem with that one is that most (maybe all) of those places have limited inventory and don't take credit card.

hope this helps ;)

Re:Well that's a relief..

[jpmorgan]

Uh, the theoretical maximum for ADSL is 8mbps, and that's only achievable over short distances. To get 12mbps you need HDSL or VDSL, but those are even shorter ranged.

Perhaps you're thinking of something else? Or maybe you're getting scammed? :)

Re:Well that's a relief..

[Anonymous Coward]

All computers in Japan use standard QWERTY keyboards (you actually use the alphabet to enter the Japanese symbols-- nobody uses the symbols on the keys to type anymore). As long as you have the IME (input method editor) set to alphabet, then you can type like normal. The punctuation is all in different places (bitch for coding), but it's not hard to get used to.

The problem for most people would probably be the Japanese OS and all of the crappy filler programs they preload on the PC's. Just remember, the accellerator keys are the same for Japanese and English Windows! (Alt-F for file, Alt-E for edit, Alt-Y for yes, Alt-N for no).

As far as ADSL, I suggest Yahoo!BB. It's JPY3500 a month (plus about JPY3500 one-time installation) for 12Mbps ADSL and free use of BB phone (VoIP, 6yen/3minutes in Japan and to the US).

Re:Well that's a relief..

[Anonymous Coward]

> Laptops are less expensive in Japan if you
> don't mind Japanese keyboard.

Laptops are less expensive in Japan if you dont mind shit components, 128mb of ram, low-quality display, Japanese keyboard (and yes, you WILL mind japanese keyboard if you touch-type like most normal people do - japanese people don't type, therefore their keyboard is engineered to be the most inefficient way to enter text ever). For a shit laptop with poor parts and low spec, shop for a jap laptop.

Re:Well that's a relief..

[tjb]

According to the G.DMT standard (for all annexes), 8 Mbs is required to be considered standard compliant.

However, the standard allows optionally reconfiguring the Reed Solomon codec to S=1/2 (that is, 2 RS codewords per data symbol) which means support up to 16 Mbs. Of course, the actual channel capacity will top out somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-13 Mbs (assuming a short, clean loop) due to Shannon's Law and the realities of current DAC and signal processing limitations. But really, anywhere up to about 7 Kft, 10 Mbs should be no problem assuming the line is reasonably clean.

S=1/2 is a bit tricky to implement and while most vendors have it, it tends not to be interoperable with the implementations of other vendors, so its not widespread since in order to work your chipset at home would have to be the same brand as the one at the CO. In Japan, this is being solved by the LECs standardizing, so 12 Mbs is being rolled out there.

Tim

Re:Well that's a relief..

[really?]

have a look at http://www.eaccess.co.jp/en/index.html and you will see 12m - look around for the details.
(I am about to change to a 100m connection for only 9000 yen a month. YEAH!)

Re:Well that's a relief..

[Anonymous Coward]

> Imagine a beowulf cluster of funny .sigs

Hell, I'd settle for just one.

Cringely

[Knife_Edge]

I remember an old Robert Cringely column in which he said that a new technology will replace an old one (or win, or something like that), if it is either ten times better, or one-tenth as expensive. And sure enough, this article explains that the cost of a three-minute long distance call went down to 6 cents (I assume they converted from yen) from 68 cents. I'm not saying Cringely is always right, but this theory of his seems to apply in this situation.

Re:Cringely

[_ph1ux_]

that is true - however there is a major problem with people adopting things like this. *Lazyness* seriously. the ability to make good quality voip calls has been around now for a few years - and there were businesses that started up around this; quicknet, net2phone, dialpad etc...

but the problem is that the telephone is something that has been around for eons when compared to the age of the internet. and people have a certain level of psychological loyalty to the institution of the phone company - desired or not... and its this state of mind (the phone bill is like the dial tone - its always there) which thwarts the efforts of businesses to capitalize on VOIP.

even though everyone likes to bitch about their phone bills and the prices per minute that they are paying, its going to take the mob mentality to really cause a difference here in the states.

it boils down to simplicty conquering lazyness of american consumers i.e. the phone is as simple as it can get. go buy one for ten bux - plug it into the wall. the phone company does the rest. the only thing you have to remember is your phone number. and for some, that can be hard enough.

so until we can get close to that with VOIP capable devices... it will be an uphill battle to get them fully adopted.

when you compare a shopping list of items that most of the consumer market associate with real VOIP (if they even know what it is) calls (computer (obviously not in this article... but the mindset of voip is voip==computer required) internet connection (==$50/month), *knowledge* ("but I dont know enough"), etc...) - to the phone, its a no brainer for people who want the lazy way out. even if they are paying "evil mci" etc too much.

besides - people like hating the companies they pay their bills to.

so whats really important at this point is to get people to see that VOIP is not just available, as good or cheaper - but JUST AS EASY as the phone. then we will get the ball rolling. and thats where these companies need to spend their marketing *and* development dollars.

Re:Cringely

[tHiNk411]

VoIP does not require a computer. Cisco ATA-186! I have one of these things, fucking works AWESOME. Internet Connection? Yea you need one of those, but there are companies like http://www.databell.net that will pay for your internet connection all the way up to a free T1 if you make enough long distance calls!

Re:Cringely

[tHiNk411]

forgot to mention, the Cisco ATA-186 although I know these things inside and out, once programed by someone like myself or the company you buy it from, I can literally give it to my 10 yr old cousin to plug into the cat5, plug in a phone and pick it up to call grandma. For residential use it is $40 a month for unlimited long distance, and it has its own local phone number that my family can call, wherever I plug it into it can recieve calls (california local number when the box is plugged in to a network in china, I still get the call) and the sound quality is better then phones. And the thing uses any regular phone. These VoIP phones are going to take over. I get a voicemail box I can check from any internet connection, or any POTS phone, and I can set call forwarding from the net, to any phone. Check these things out http://www.databell.net

Re:Cringely

[ealar dlanvuli]

tag

Re:Cringely

[tomstdenis]

Um compare uptime and reliability [terms of bandwidth] of a phone to your local ISP. I bet you 9/10 of the time the phone co will win by a long shot.

Not to say my ISP sucks [they have been quite decent lately] but telco's are mandated to be very good. I've never in my entire life [ever] picked up the phone and not got a dial tone. Ever. I can't say the same about dial up ISPs or cable [stupid DHCP...]

Tom

Re:Cringely

[jsse]

Cringely is not much a visioneer, most slashdotters know it well. In fact it's difficult to replace traditional PBX system with VOIP gateway due to

lantency in VOIP

It wouldn't look bad when you are just chitchating with your friends with 1-2 seconds lagging in between, but it'd look awkward when your peer is an extremely short-temper but important client.

If you don't believe me try calling your mother-in-law over VOIP. :)

But dial-up access costs a fortune.

[stef0x77]

OTOH, because of the high phone costs, dial up access to the internet in Japan is insanely expensive. An impediment to getting online for many people.

Re:But dial-up access costs a fortune.

[Anonymous Coward]

> OTOH, because of the high phone costs, dial up access to the internet in Japan is insanely expensive. An impediment to getting online for many people.

That's why, if you'd read the article, you'd know that so many people there are getting broadband.

POTS free for 2 years

[mrmaster]

Been POTS free for 2 years(coincidentally pot free) and have never regretted it. However, VOip is a cool technology, I just don't understand the use of it in a home setting? I already have my cellphone with free long distance.

Re:POTS free for 2 years

[raju1kabir]

However, VOip is a cool technology, I just don't understand the use of it in a home setting? I already have my cellphone with free long distance.

Cell phones are only usable if your telephone usage style is extremely basic.

If you depend on routing calls around, intelligent decisions based on caller ID and time, etc., then you need something with a standard interface so you can connect to other equipment capable of taking your instructions and acting on them.

In a home, some of this is just hobbyist geekery, but it really does make life easier once you get it going. In a business, it's pretty much essential unless the phone is not a significant tool in the particular line of work involved.

Re:POTS free for 2 years

[kubla2000]

I just don't understand the use of it in a home setting? I already have my cellphone with free long distance.

Free international? I doubt it. The article expressly talks about a call from Japan to NYC

I live in Italy and we have a 10 mpbs internet connection with fastweb which includes unlimited local and national calling. It's all voip without a noticable depreciation in vox quality.

Re:POTS free for 2 years

[Malc]

This is an example of why cheap POTs is important. It costs me CDN$0.07/min to call the UK from Toronto. If I call an hour a week, my phone bill is only CDN$15-20/month (USD$9.50-12.50). In fact, I often have over 300 international minutes per month on my bill - it's so cheap that I can't be bothered with the hassle and quality of VoIP.

Re:POTS free for 2 years

[Com2Kid]

I already have my cellphone with free long distance.


POTS phone line with unlimited local (I /never/ call LD so. . . .): $15 a month per line.

Cost of cell phone with unlimited local: Way more then $15 a month. :-D

Actualy I could get by with a prepaid cell phone but their minutes all expire after like 3 months which /sucks/ since I never use more then like 20 or so minutes a month (if ever that, sometimes I go many months without ever dialing out on the phone)

Re:POTS free for 2 years

[Anonymous Coward]

so clearly you are 15 years old and only call your schoolmates or are older and live with your parents or a mile away from your family? perhaps when you actually grow up you will appreciate cheap LD alternatives

Re:POTS free for 2 years

[Negadin]

Cost of cell phone with unlimited local: 34 dollars a month if you have cricket service in your area. Long distance is more, you prepay at like, 8 cents a minute or something around there. I don't have a POTS at my house. Cable + my cellular phone. I don't call LD anyway. This setup works fine for me. Best part is, I have yet to get a telemarketing call on my cellphone. I do believe it is illeagal to solicit on wireless phones, at least in my state.

Re:POTS free for 2 years

[Com2Kid]

Cost of cell phone with unlimited local: 34 dollars a month if you have cricket service in your area.

I get 2 POTS lines in my city for $25 a month.

Unfortunately there are $25 of taxes on top of that. (!!!)

Re:POTS free for 2 years

[bluGill]

Depends on where you live. For me, the numbers work out like this:

POTS with unlimited local: $42/month
Cell phone with free LD: $44/month.

The cell phone looks like a no brainer. Sure it isn't unlimited talk time, but it is more than I use, and while I don't use the LD often, it is nice to have. It also work more places than the regular phone. Did I mention that voice mail, and callerID are included in the cell phone, but extra for POTS?

Hint: There is no law or moral requirement that you answer the phone. In fact, it is immoral to have your phone on in church. (If you are on call you can get away with it on vibrate) It is immoral to answer the phone when you are having a face to face conversation with someone else. (unless you warned the other party you are expecting a call, and then use callerId to take no other calls) It is immoral to answer the phone at dinner. (unless you are expecting a call, including being on call)

When you realise that you are not a slave to the phone, then the cell phone becomes a nice convience. When you are a slave to the phone, jumping when it rings, waiting for a call, then you will hate a cell phone.

The beef

[jukal]

I quess this is the essentials from that article, which has lots of useless details, including description of someone's long-distance romance :)) :
" More than 300,000 people have signed up for the service from BB Technologies Corp., a subsidiary of Tokyo Internet company Softbank Corp. That's easily more than three times the estimated U.S. consumer market. The service, which began in April, doesn't require a new telephone. With a book-sized modem, one gets voice quality comparable to that of regular voice lines -- at a fraction the cost.

Subscribers to Softbank's Yahoo broadband Internet service get voice over Internet for free. Non-subscribers pay about $10 per month including modem rental after a $30 installation fee. Users keep their same phone number. The broadband service is an asymmetric digital subscriber line that runs over existing wires."

Re:The beef

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the popularity has much to do with the fact that local calls are metered in Japan. Which in turn has made internet capable phones very popular. The average Japanese consumer is most computer illiterate, and get exposed to the internet through their phones sooner that anything else.

sadu

This has been a long time coming...

[Cirrocco]

And it will continue to grow in popularity. The old paradigm of having a phone hardwired in your house may die off completely considering the declining cost of wireless phones (CDMA and analog) and the increasing use of e-mail and VOIP.

The phone companies will soon have to change their revenue strategies completely in order to enjoy the large market they've had in the past. AT&T continues to raise their prices (up to $.17/minute for long distance now) Pac Bell (here in California) now has value-added services galore. Broadband is being pushed hard (they now have stands set up in the grocery stores for crying out loud)

Just as pagers are slowly becoming obsolete so are home phones. They are still handy, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to justify the ever-increasing cost of having one, particularly when the taxes on them are starting to become almost as expensive as the service itself. You don't have to take my word for it; anyone reading this who lives in the Bay Area (CA) have a look at the taxes you pay on your phone. Ouch!

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[geekoid]

You don't think you'll see the same taxes moved to the other communications methods?
sure, some people may enjoy a 'tax relief' but it is only a temporary one.

I know somebody who had his phone line shut off, went completly VoIP and cell. He had to pay about 2 bucks a month NOT to be connected.

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[gwernol]

I know somebody who had his phone line shut off, went completly VoIP and cell. He had to pay about 2 bucks a month NOT to be connected.

Okay, I don't get it. How does he end up paying $2/month not to be connected? Who is charging him this? Does he get a bill from AT&T every month for two bucks? He should just not pay it...

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'd genuinely like to know what you mean.

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

>He should just not pay it...

What could the phone company do, come and reconnect him for nonpayment?

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[_ph1ux_]

I was going to do that as well... but pacbell/sbc *requires* that you maintain "basic monthly service" on a telephone in order to be "eligible" for DSL.... pricks.

hmm.... anyone want to join a class action law suit against pacbell / sbc with me?

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[qnonsense]

I was going to do that as well... but pacbell/sbc *requires* that you maintain "basic monthly service" on a telephone in order to be "eligible" for DSL.... pricks.

hmm.... anyone want to join a class action law suit against pacbell / sbc with me?

• No, this makes sense. You are using
• their lines for the DSL, so they have to be connected even if you're not going to make a single phone call. If you get DSL with a company other than your local telco (PacBell for me, I live in Santa Cruz and have DSL through Cruzio), your ISP must see a telephone number for you in order to determine if your line can carry DSL. In other words, it's not too agregious for PacBell to charge a few bucks a month for the telephone line, even if you're not using it for telephone.
  
  Don't get me wrong, it still sucks, you just couldn't sue them for it.
  

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[_ph1ux_]

not true. DSL runs over copper wire. the only association with the phone number is for billing purposes - which makes it totally arbitrary - in that Phone companies in the past have lost law suits to people who were buying "alarm lines" (a pair of blank copper wires) between buildings and running DSL over them. the phone companies got pissed because that is an area they like to charge for...

so - my phone lines having dialtone run over them is *not* a requirement for me to have DSL. hence the possibility of a class action law suit claiming that PACBELL is unfairly tieing the to services together. kinda like MS and IE.

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[Anonymous Coward]

The number's not there just for billing purposes, unless your ISP is your telco (in which case they could charge you a "line fee" and be done with it). The number is there because ISPs other than the local telco have to use not only the local telco's lines, but also their dumbass techies to hook up the dsl. The telcos often contract this stuff out, but anyway, the way the POTS system works (and hence the wires for DSL) is that each pair must have a number, or at least be associated with a master number. So I guess they could skip assiging you a number and associate it with some dummy and then guess what? THEY'D JUST CHARGE YOU A LINE FEE. You're using their lines, goddamn it, they're going to charge you for it. The services are physically linked, so no you can't sue.

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[jpmorgan]

You'd still have to pay them a monthly fee to rent the dry pair.

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus AT+T's guaranteed monthly rape of USD 6.00 just for "subscribing" to their long distance plan. It just doesn't make sense not to have a long distance calling card ordered off the 'net. I pay USD 0.049/min. anytime for calls within the US, with a USD 1.00 monthly fee, only if any calls are made. (Company name withheld lest this be taken as an advertisement.)

The traditional phone companies cannot even rely on "upgrading" their lines for DSL because cable TV is so pervasive. I would expect they will fight with RIAA vigor not to give up.

Re:This has been a long time coming...

[adolf]

Yep. And the only alarm circuit I've ever had the pleasure of rigging for bandwidth was cheaper than than the cheapest POTS plan offered.

Which is to say, that it makes the telephone company MORE MONEY to sell you POTS alongside DSL than it does for them to just rent you a dry pair.

Which is to say, that it costs you MORE MONEY to buy POTS alongside DSL than it does to just rent a dry pair.

Which is to say... who am I kidding? Did you fail your elementary math class, or are you just trolling?

Great service with Vonage.

[www.sorehands.com]

I have been using Vonage for a few weeks and it has been great.

They provide a Cisco ATA186. The only downsides are:

• You need a home network, but I had one and a DSL router works.
• You need a DHCP server, not a static IP network. It was easy to set it up, but they don't say so in the documentation.

The advantage over cell phone is that there are no minutes! It is $39.95 a month and you can choose which area code you want a phone number in. You can forward it to a cell phone when out, or any other phone that you may be at.

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[bogie]

So the sound quality is good?? How about if you want to play Quake or something else, don't you get laggy performance?

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[Com2Kid]

The advantage over cell phone is that there are no minutes! It is $39.95 a month and you can choose which area code you want a phone number in. You can forward it to a cell phone when out, or any other phone that you may be at.


Huh this makes no sense, do you mean that the system then calls you up on that other phone when you are out if you get a call (thus incuring both cell phone AND the charges of this device), which would offer, err, heh, no benefits over a cell phone (except for when you are at home).

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[_ph1ux_]

I just called them to talk to them about their service... it says that their business hours at 8am to pm monday - friday.... (it is currently 4pm in SF) when I called, it rang a bunch and said that they were not available to take my call and suggested that I call during their normal business hours.

what I wanted to know - which neither you nor they talk about, and what I have mentioned in a previous post - is that SBC/PACBELL *requires* that I maintain a phone with "basic monthly service" (dialtone) in order to have DSL. this means that if I were to sign up for vonage I would have the following bills:

phone: 10.69 (says its the "flat rate service" - its actually 19.10 for me after adding caller id and anon call reject)
DSL: 64.95 - I have statics - it seems you cant have static ips for vonage?
vonage: 40.00

==115.00/month about for phone.

that sounds cool - but when I look at my current bill from sprint 5 cents anytime for 2 months of usage: 58.00

thats 2 months of calling... so it doesnt really work out. however I ****HHAATTEE**** phone companies (they are all theives) so that is my major incentive for switching.

but what I want to know is how the one guy setup the free nationwide calling from payphones through vonage - that sounds like something i definitely want to try...

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[www.sorehands.com]

phone: 10.69 (says its the "flat rate service" - its actually 19.10 for me after adding caller id and anon call reject)

Can you change to a measured service?

DSL: 64.95 - I have statics - it seems you cant have static ips for vonage?

You need to have DHCP service that provides a IP to the ATA-186 adapter. You can something like a Netgear RP114 Cable/DSL Web Safe Router or add a DHCP service to your linux box. But, how many people only use 1 computer on a DSL line anyways?

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[_ph1ux_]

oh *I* have to supply the DHCP addy to the vonage device... no problem.... if they ever answer their phone - I might actually join them. are you making a referal commision?

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[www.sorehands.com]

They configure the ATA-186 to get an address from a DHCP server. They may be changing that to be configurable for static.

If you want $40.00 off, just send me a note with your email via my form and I will have them send you an email getting you $40 off of your service.

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[ibennetch]

Huh this makes no sense, do you mean that the system then calls you up on that other phone when you are out if you get a call (thus incuring both cell phone AND the charges of this device), which would offer, err, heh, no benefits over a cell phone (except for when you are at home).

I have no experience with VoIP, but in POTS, call busy/unanswered forwarding is generally something that the phone company sets up for a small fee (I think it's like 3-5 bucks a month but I'm too lazy to run upstairs and check). An incoming, forwarded call costs nothing on the original line. In addition, most cell phones come with enough free minutes that this shouldn't be an issue on that end of the call.

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[Com2Kid]

In addition, most cell phones come with enough free minutes that this shouldn't be an issue on that end of the call.


No but your still PAYING for a cell phone, thus the entire purpose is, err, WHY bother with this system when either just a POTS or just a Cell would do just fine?

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[rusty0101]

For $39.95 a month, I get a line that has _No_ per minute charges. I can call my dad in state, and talk to my uncle who is not always coherent. I can call up my kids living with their mother out of state, and spend as much time on the phone with them as I want, such as a couple of hours a weekend. I can call up the support line for my Agenda PDA, and hang out on hold until they open in the morning. I can call up work and let them try to figure out how I got to SF, CA in the 20 min it took me to get home from work in Down Town MPLS.

That $39.95 includes voicemail that can be picked up by a windows PC (drat, running Linux, so have to use the phone, or install Windows Media Player via CodeWeaver I suppose.)

While a POTS line is fine for local calls (I understand that there are some locations where a call across the street is billed per minute) in my area, Most of my family is a LD/Per Min call away.

I see Sprint is offering a 4500 min 39.95 deal, with 350 any time minutes, I suspect the rest is night/weekend minutes. While 4500 min is over three days of phone use, 350 min is five hours and 50 min. If you happen to have used all five hours and 50 min of those minutes, you are up to paying per min charges again, even if you have not touched the other 4150 min.

I have also had problems in my area ordering Pizza with my cell phone, and I won't even bother with my VoIP phone. Your milage may vary.

My total phone bill went down significantly after adding Vonage to my set of options, and droping my cell and POTS service to minimal requirements. What happens in your case remains to be seen.

-Rusty

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[ealar dlanvuli]

>>I have also had problems in my area ordering Pizza with my cell phone, and I won't even bother with my VoIP phone. Your milage may vary.

Yes, I'm calling you from the internet.

(pimply faced 16 yr old cashier): Er um.. You can talk to my manager, hacker d00d!

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[jmartrican]

You don't incure charges on Vonage incoming (or outgoing if you are on the unlimited plan). You can also shut this feature off if you want. I mean if I'm not home I do not like missing calls so I like this feature.

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[Com2Kid]

. I mean if I'm not home I do not like missing calls so I like this feature.


Oh.

I am to miss calls when I am home. :-D

Re:Great service with Vonage.

[rusty0101]

No, more like...

Do you deliver to Hyw 169, on Cedar Lake?

Is that in Alameda?

No, St. Louis Park, MN

No, we only deliver in the SF area...

Oh, sorry, wrong phone...

-Rusty

VoIP

[papasui]

Many of the international calls that you make are already routed through VoIP systems. Eventually all systems will make their way to VoIP. The cable company I work for offers unlimited (and long distances is included) VoIP use for $19.95 a month and includes all the features my landline does and ends up costing me nearly $40.00.

Re:VoIP

[papasui]

Sorry to reply to myself, but the issue that has plagued VoIP is ensuring the service is 99.999% reliable. Imagine not being able to use your phone to call 911 because your isp's dhcp server went down.

POTS going out here as well...

[Bartab]

Lots of people I know only own a cellphone, and don't bother getting a POTS line at all. In areas with cable broadband there's really no reason. Modern cellphone plans have insane numbers of free local minutes and mostly 'local' refers to a larger area than the landlines - for instance my cell is local to San Jose from SF, but a landline call would be long distance.

I have a POTS now, but its mostly for my DSL to run over. When I move I'll either get Cable or a DSL provider that doesn't require a landline. Here's hoping Pacbell goes bankrupt.

Re:POTS going out here as well...

[Xerithane]

I have a POTS now, but its mostly for my DSL to run over. When I move I'll either get Cable or a DSL provider that doesn't require a landline. Here's hoping Pacbell goes bankrupt.


Same thing for me, but I always forget to pay the POTS phone bill. It's so completely non-important that I always put it in the Pay Later pile, which invariably turns into the Disconnection pile. I've spent almost $100 on calling cards to Japan in the last month. Do VoIP work international as well as they do domestic, and do most VoIP providors charge extra. I have no idea where to even look for reliable VoIP data. If my soon-to-be-wife has issues getting her greencard, I'm expecting many more phone cards to be purchased.

Re:POTS going out here as well...

[Mr Rohan]

In areas with cable broadband there's really no reason

Unless your home network has a redundant power supply you either need a cellphone or you can't be sure you can call 911 when you need to

Re:POTS going out here as well...

[ScoLgo]

I've spent almost $100 on calling cards to Japan in the last month

Since you're using pre-paid phone cards, you might look into using a pre-paid dial-around service like bigzoo for your international calls. I call Japan for $0.064/minute with a $0.75 per month fee. Domestic long distance is $0.029/minute (home state included). I find this is cheaper, per minute, than my cell-phone bill. Based on actual usage anyway.

I'm pretty sure that to offer these kinds of prices to the consumer, bigzoo must be running VoIP somewhere along the line.

As with most things - YMMV...

Re:POTS going out here as well...

[Com2Kid]

Modern cellphone plans have insane numbers of free local minutes and mostly 'local' refers to a larger area than the landlines

There are still those of us hold outs who just HATE cell phones though. :-D

I keep on trying to lose mine but people keep on finding the damn thing. . . . ;(

Re:POTS going out here as well...

[billatq]

Now that you mention it, here are vonage's prices for long distance calls to japan using their VoIP service:

JAPAN 81 $0.09
JAPAN - Mobile 8110, 8120, 8130, 8140, 8160, 8170, 8180, 8190, 81090, 81110, 81113 - 9, 810770, 818150 $0.25
JAPAN - Osaka 816 $0.08
JAPAN - Sapporo8111 $0.09
JAPAN - FAX, MODEM, and/or Cellular combined 8131, 8161, 81171, 81177 $0.23 JAPAN - Tokyo 813 $0.08

Re:POTS going out here as well...

[Xerithane]

The big thing that I have a problem with is calling cell phones. My fiance has a cell, and that is pretty much the only way to get in touch with her. She's staying at her parents house right now, with one phone, located right next to where her dad sleeps so not convenient when he goes to sleep really early. I have one card that I get $.06/minute and there is one that has a $1.50 connection charge that is $0.01/minute. The problem is calling cell phones jumps it up well over $0.17/minute and that is usually promo cards that you can't get all the time. $0.24+ is the average. *grumble*

That and a lot of times when I call a cell phone using VoIP routed cards, there is a 2 second latency on the conversation which sucks horribly.

Re:POTS going out here as well...

[_ph1ux_]

sounds like you should make your own direct connection... especially since you are primarily talking to one person over there.

go get two linejacks from quicknet.com (or phonejacks which are PCMCIA)

set them up as direct gateways - and you can call from your machine to her machine - and since they have DSPs built onand rather good software (even linux drivers) the quality will be pretty good.

although their managment sucks - their products are actually not bad.

otherwise see if that mail order bride company has one ready with her green card...

just kidding :P

good luck.

Re:POTS going out here as well...

[Xerithane]

set them up as direct gateways - and you can call from your machine to her machine - and since they have DSPs built onand rather good software (even linux drivers) the quality will be pretty good.

The problem with this is that her computer is right next to the phone. Which, is right next to where her dad sleeps. She went over there 4 weeks ago, and promptly bought a cell phone so I can call her at any time. Pre-paid calling cards suck at this. One card will consistently route me to a rather polite, but disgrunted Japanese fellow. One gives me at least a 2 second latency, another refuses to make the connection 90% of the time.

The only calling cards that seem to work are those that are $0.05+ more a minute.

good luck.

Thanks, I leave to go over there (and get married) on Friday. :)

Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[danimrich]

So you need to boot up your computer if you're going to receive a call? How would you know? Telepathy?

Note to those running servers at home: I wouldn't like to have one next to my bed ;-)
And those IP phones are quite expensive.

hmm..

[the way, what're you]

POTS? Don't you mean WOKS?

Re:hmm..

[Skiboo]

POTS? Don't you mean WOKS?

Worthless Old Kalling System?

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Japanese are all crazy with their super-small gadgets and whatnot, so I'm sure it doesnt cause a problem (or not as much of one) for them. Otherwise, how would it be replacing it?

echelon

[Anonymous Coward]

How easy will it be now to trace phone calls when they go over the open internet?

If not tracing, how about spying on phone conversations from a particular phone number or just phone conversations in general.

These are just IP packets going back and forth, nothing to stop someone from tapping anyone.

At that price, Vonage is useless.

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the point of getting this if you already have a cell phone? You can already get unlimited minutes for $40 a month. Why pay a total of $80 for a $40 service?

Re:At that price, Vonage is useless.

[www.sorehands.com]

Unlimited cell minutes? Really? What service plan is that?

I found that Vonage is more reliable and sounds better than than SprintPCS.

Your $80 figure is only correct, if you are getting DSL/Cable internet only for VoIP. Then you are correct.

Re:At that price, Vonage is useless.

[GiorgioG]

Yup unlimited cell minutes (locally) - check out www.cricketcommunications.com - That's what I have and I don't have a regular home phone anymore...

Re:At that price, Vonage is useless.

[raju1kabir]

What's the point of getting this if you already have a cell phone? You can already get unlimited minutes for $40 a month. Why pay a total of $80 for a $40 service?

Ditch the cell phone and you're only paying $40.

And I'd love to hear about a cell plan that provides "unlimited minutes" for $40 a month. There are about 41,000 minutes in a month, and the sun is shining during most of the ones I want to use.

If you happen to have friends or family in an area served by Vonage, you can pick that area code, and they can all call you for free, which means that you can give them something without having to change their behavior.

Also -- Around here, payphones claim that they won't accept incoming calls, but it's a lie; they do. Using xringd, I call my house twice for two rings each, then it calls me back, then I enter a code and it bridges me a dialtone on the Vonage line (through the miracle of X-10's low-voltage connector wired to a little DP relay). That gives me free nationwide calling from pay phones as long as I have a couple quarters in my pocket to loan to the phone for a few secs.

As I find cell phones to be hatefully annoying, this is a much better deal. I can use the same mechanism to check my messages or have my email read to me (still ironing out the kinks on that one; at the moment I can't interrupt a long boring message).

Re:At that price, Vonage is useless.

[billatq]

That sounds awesome, do you have a page detailing the software that you use for that?

Re:At that price, Vonage is useless.

[kiscica]

What's the point of getting this if you already have a cell phone? You can already get unlimited minutes for $40 a month. Why pay a total of $80 for a $40 service?


Long distance. No cell phone plan gives you unlimited long distance minutes for $40 a month. And even plans that give you unlimited, unrestricted "local" minutes must be pretty rare -- there certainly don't seem to be any in metropolitan areas like Los Angeles and New York. Most ~$40 plans in NY or LA give you a few hundred "anytime" minutes (that includes long distance of course) and a few thousand (not unlimited) "night and weekend" minutes. In many plans your "anytime" minutes are used up, even at night and on the weekends, before your "night and weekend" minutes take effect, rendering the whole deal little better than an advertising scam.

If you make lots of long distance calls, Vonage is fantastic. I am on the phone, LA-NY, at least an hour or two every day. With my AT&T "One Rate" cell phone, I was paying almost $200 a month (with taxes, fees, etc.) for 1500 minutes, with frequent billing errors, every one-minute dropped call charged for, plus outrageous overage fees of $0.25/minute if I went over the 1500 minutes -- some months I had a $350 bill. And AT&T Wireless is one of the slimiest companies I've hever had the displeasure of dealing with. Sprint, Verizon, etc. aren't much better.

Now I have Vonage and never have to worry about how long I'm on the phone. Of course I've kept my cell phone, on the minimum plan, for when I'm on the road, but I'm looking forward to giving AT&TWS the finger -- with wireless number portability, it should soon be possible to keep my phone number and switch to a wireless provider I hate less.

Vonage is particularly good for my purposes. Most of the people I talk to are in New York, whereas I'm in Los Angeles most of the time. Since I can have my 212 number while I'm in LA (I did this with my cell phone too, of course), there are no toll charges for anyone whether I'm calling or being called by my New York friends and relatives. I can take the Cisco box anywhere there's a broadband connection, so nothing has to change if I move. And the ability to forward calls is a major advantage. When I travel, I forward the phone to (e.g.) my hotel number -- I can do this on the webpage from anywhere. Then, instead of wasting cell phone minutes or using a calling card or (God forbid!) paying inflated hotel toll charges, I simply tell people to call me on my Vonage number and it rings for me in the hotel!

Vonage might not be for everyone, but I would argue that anyone who makes a lot of long distance calls should consider it seriously. I know that there are other alternatives -- even "traditional" long-distance companies such as MCI seem to be getting into the act, with package deals including unlimited domestic long distance. I for one would rather deal with Vonage than with MCI! (Vonage's plan is also cheaper, has no installation fees, and no contract period. On the downside, if your broadband connection goes down, your "dialtone" does too -- so it's not for "five-nines" telco-style reliability).

I imagine that, sooner or later, there will be cell phone plans out there with unlimited long distance. But right now, Vonage is arguably the single best option out there for the heavy long-distance user.

Kiscica

Re:At that price, Vonage is useless.

[raju1kabir]

That sounds awesome, do you have a page detailing the software that you use for that?

It's cobbled together from shell scripts on top of vgetty.

I have a USRobotics Sportster Voice 33.6 modem which was a giveaway because nobody wants 33.6 modems anymore, but they work great for voice. I'm sure you can find them at those suburban computer flea market show things.

The two phone lines (one real and one from the Vonage box) are bridged using a little relay and some resistors from Radio Shack and this X-10 box, in conjunction with the Firecracker set they gave away for $5 a couple years ago (and which I learned about from Slashdot).

The whole thing is an unsightly mess, both physically and software-wise, but it hangs together. I haven't made any changes in a while and I'm a little afraid to mess with it, though... The vgetty stuff was tricky to get right.

Re:At that price, Vonage is useless.

[ealar dlanvuli]

tag.

Re:At that price, Vonage is useless.

[bluGill]

I'd rather ditch POTS. I pay the same for my cell phone as for POTS, and I get more minutes than I need. Sure in theory POTS is unlimited, while the cell phone limites me to 1600 minutes a month (1000 weekend only too!), but in practice, I don't use the phone that much anyway.

Remember everyone is different. I haven't used my POTS line yet this year (I only keep it because I have to have it to get DSL, though other broadband should be here anytime now). Other people use the phone more than me, and a cell phone won't work. I used to move around a lot, and my cell phone number never changes, while the POTS number would change each time. I'm single, so that is a factor, I'm not trying to save money by sharing a line and phone with a family.

Re:At that price, Vonage is useless.

[jmartrican]

Hey can I contact you or can you contact me about this setup? My email is jmartine_1026@yahoo.com. Apperantly your setup has caught the attention of some very important people at my company. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Bandwidth? keep VOIP off my ethernet

[slashnot007]

Isn't this going to choke the internet bandwidth. either at the back bone level or the plain old router level. I mean I would be steamin' mad if some idiot sharing a router with me was streaming a video phone while I'm trying to mount a remote hard disk. While the internet backbone may have excess bandwidth local switches dont.

Furthermore isn't Voip ultimately more expensive if you actually had to pay for it? I mean the reason internet service is so cheap right now is that I dont gobble bandwith 100% of the time. If everyone fully utilized their dsl connections theoretical I think we would all be paying more and getting crappier service.

Re:Bandwidth? keep VOIP off my ethernet

[ArcadeNut]

How is this any worse than all the On-Line games such as Quake, Half-Life, Warcraft3, Etc..?

These games send a significant amount of traffic over the internet, yet most people don't bitch about them taking up the bandwidth.

Re:Bandwidth? keep VOIP off my ethernet

[fidget42]

Isn't this going to choke the internet bandwidth

Actually, voice is very low bandwidth. You should be more concerned of someone mounting a remote harddisk while you are trying to talk to someone. Getting hit by a DoS while trying to call 911 would be a bad thing, too.

Re:Bandwidth? keep VOIP off my ethernet

[Yokaze]

> Isn't this going to choke the internet bandwidth.

Bandwith requirements for VoIP in ISDN quality: 64kbit/s. So it can easily fit into a DSL up and downlink. The backbones for voice can be used for data, too.
They are just a little bit too sophisticated for dumb packet switching.

> If everyone fully utilized their dsl connections theoretical I think we would all be paying more and getting crappier service.

This is true for every service, so lets ban everything, except gopher and a mail programs, except SNDMSG.

Why is there a need for a 3G mobile network? (Well, that's a question one shouldn't really think about it, because it could cost some people their job...)
At least theoretically, more bandwidth for data services.

See the positive side-effect:
All the unused reserves in bandwith for voice and data are then shared.

Re:Bandwidth? keep VOIP off my ethernet

[Anonymous Coward]

Those games send hardly any traffic over the internet compared the amount of bandwidth needed for VOIP.

Re:Bandwidth? keep VOIP off my ethernet

[slashnot007]

64 kb/sec is a lot when its full time. and when millions of people are consuming that full time its going to find choke points. not neccessarily on the backbone.

how long did it take you to type your reply in. compared to dwonloading the web page. you really use 64KB.sec on average.

Re:Bandwidth? keep VOIP off my ethernet

[bluGill]

Not really. For every VOIP call, you can take away one analog call, replacing it with a digital call. Digital allows you to put several calls on one wire, so in theory, if everyone moved to VOIP, then all those analog wires could be used for digital, and there would be MORE bandwidth than before.

Note, in practice, the phone companies moved most calls to digital except the wires closest to the customers. The theory applies though.

Re:Bandwidth? keep VOIP off my ethernet

[Yokaze]

And how much is 64kbit/s when downloading a CD-image,
"apt-get upgrade" or "emerge --world upgrade"?
At least for me, it's much more than I would telephone in a month.

At a local telco, the ISDN-"router" collapsed because of the number of data connections, not voice.
They were introducing a flat-rate in a region, where previously a state-monopol provided the only access.

>not neccessarily on the backbone.
Where then?
The access point? A dedicated set of 2-4 wires.
From the curb to the provider? Still dedicated lines to a dedicated splitter (assuming line-sharing), which splits the voice from data, to the DSLAM of the provider.
Now, it's all in the provider's backbone.
The provider? Every user must be able to at least use the web marginally and simultaniously with others, without disturbing the other users.
On a 12Mbit/s DSL connection, which qualifier would be most appropriate to describe 64kbit/s?

Phone companies shouldn't be scared....

[ADRenalyn]

They should recognize this as an alternative solution , and capitalize on this opportunity. The mentality they choose instead is one we have seen elsewhere (U.S. Postal Service, RCIAA, etc):

If people are changing from my service to one that is more flexible and cheaper, then I am inevitably screwed.

These people need to take a lesson in business! As far as I see it, if a new technology is making my current service/product obsolete, then I need to study this new technology so that I can offer it myself. If thats not an option, well then you buy stock in whatever company is succeeding you! ;)

Seriously though... I do have a question about the "ownership" of the actual lines used to transmit the VoIP- The article states that it will be using existing wires, and users will have to pay a 'line fee' to the company that owns the physical wires. So does that give the owner any control over how it is used?

-ADR

Re:Phone companies shouldn't be scared....

[hiimlars]

The phone companies, or at least the two that I've worked for in the past few years, are very aware of VoIP and are, indeed, using it to transport traffic - unbeknownst to their customers.

What they don't want to do is encourage competition, in the form of cable and other providers, for phone service. If the phone company offer VoIP to your home, it must be a good alternative...right? So they don't.

Traceroute, at last...

[dmuth]

There's one reason why I've always wanted VoIP: traceroute.

At my old home, I had a dialup connection to my ISP. About once or twice a month when I would dial in for the evening, I would hear *static* on the phoneline. I'm talking like a noisy AM radio type of static. I would hang up the modem, dial in again, and the static would be gone.

My best guess is that there was a faulty wire *somewhere* in the telco's network that was causing the static, and I was unfortunate enough for my call to end up on that wire. (Remember, POTS is a circuit switched network, the same set of wires is used for the duration of the connection) Of course, when I called Verizon, there was absolutely no way for me to reproduce the problem reliably, so they couldn't do much to help. Had I some equivilent of a way to do a traceroute, I could simply say, 'the link between switch-5.verizon.net and switch-32.verizon.net is dropping packets, please put that in the trouble ticket so the techs can fix it'.

So yeah, I'm a little giddy about VoIP. Almost makes me wanna get a T1 to my current residence and drop the POTS line I have now... Well, I can dream, I suppose.

I'll stop babbling now...

Re:Traceroute, at last...

[swb]

the same set of wires is used for the duration of the connection

The same set of wires is used for every call. The only 'wire' likely is the one between your house and the CO. From the CO to the rest of the network it is very likely optical, unless you live in some stumblefuck rural area.

Re:Traceroute, at last...

[mpe]

At my old home, I had a dialup connection to my ISP. About once or twice a month when I would dial in for the evening, I would hear *static* on the phoneline. I'm talking like a noisy AM radio type of static. I would hang up the modem, dial in again, and the static would be gone.
My best guess is that there was a faulty wire *somewhere* in the telco's network that was causing the static, and I was unfortunate enough for my call to end up on that wire. (Remember, POTS is a circuit switched network [techtarget.com], the same set of wires is used for the duration of the connection)

On anything other that museum pieces the only individual set of wires are the local loop. Anything else is multiplexed over either copper or more likely fibre. A T1 isn't a bundle of 24 pairs it's a single 1.5M connection split into 24 channels. If it breaks 24 channels break, not one out of the 24.

Re:Traceroute, at last...

[antirename]

Get a T1 line and share it, then charge your neighbors to connect. I've considered it, but many of my neighbors are college students and move every 6 months. If I lived in a more stable neighborhood, I'd actually consider it.

I want my free Phone Back

[Anonym1ty]

I wish Dialpad were still free ;)

I have been looking but not seeing any new free PC to Phone stuff out there. It looks athat all you get are years old google references now and a few insanely complicated linux solutions -- All I want is my free phone calls back so I can call anywhere in the country (us) again.

A Cheapskate I may be, but I have more stuff than thee. - Me

Re:I want my free Phone Back

[SquadBoy]

For a time my wife could make free calls to Korea. Gawd I miss them. :)

Re:I want my free Phone Back

[Respect2Glory]

I've also searched everywhere for free internet phones, and I've concluded that the days of free are now samples. I was one of those to overuse "TellMe" with my family and friends. That was a great free 2 minutes! Now Yahoo Messenger seems to be better than MS NetMeeting, unless you like using the clipboard with sharing capabilities.

OH yeah, there's a few that claim to "free PC to Phone" sites, but they want you to click and join a club or something to do with money... a person can only own or belong to so many of these! [I'm back to calling collect, using code instead of my name to let the receiver know where I'm at. This works great for automated calls, cuz I don't hafta be restricted. I can just tell the caller where I'm at. (i.e. substitute short sentence for your name, like, "Becky 2PM Wendy's" -or- "I'm Becky at 555-555-5555")] ~ R2G ~ Sis 8^)

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[danimrich]

You got a point. There still are a couple of problems: *Providers need to make sure that IP phones are assigned a "normal" phone number so that they can be called from telephone booths, the Virgin Islands, Siberia, etc. *There needs to be a certain degree of stability and security, i.e. if they use wireless or fixed wireless networks, they need to restrict access to their broadcasting equipment and use redundant power supplies. Remember, good ol'telephones (simple ones) receive their power from the telco's network and are thus somewhat immune to blackouts (in case of fire, for example).

Not only slashdotted

[Pac]

You can call the operator and hear the fightening truth: dUd3, w3 0wN j00...

Vonage DigitalVoice

[grahamsz]

I've recently signed up to vonage digital voice and the techincal service is fantastic.

With some wrangling i've since taken the ata-186 router back to scotland with me. I work for a company in the USA and this gives me a californian phone number and (once i upgrade to the $40 service) unlimited minutes across the usa.

Latency doesn't seem to be a problem although i'm definitely with one of the better uk broadband providers. I'll also soon experiment with setting up QoS on my network to ensure that my 1024/256 doesn't saturate to the point that my voip packets drop.

The main downsides to vonage are:
- They dont let you have the password to the Cisco router which YOU have bought from them - meaning you cant use the second line or easily connect it to a h232 gatekeeper to do intelligent things with.

- They wont bill any credit card which doesn't have a US billing address and wont ship outside of the US (and guyana for some reason)

Re:Vonage DigitalVoice

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont think you actually BUY the cisco unit from them. AFAIK, you have to return it should you cancel the service. there is a setup fee for the service, but its not high enough to be buying that ata186 unit.

Re:Vonage DigitalVoice

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I'll sign up. It seems they have a Refer-a-friend program, if you post the information I need for this I'll sign up with you as my friend (so you get $40 off). It's fair given that you've provided their advertising here... ;)

Re:Vonage DigitalVoice

[arnie_apesacrappin]

[quote]

They dont let you have the password to the Cisco router which YOU have bought from them - meaning you cant use the second line or easily connect it to a h232 gatekeeper to do intelligent things with.

[/quote]

Did you try "cisco"? When I had DSL service in Cincinnati, OH all the DSL modems had a password of cisco. That, and the password encryption that was used to store the password in the config was ROT-13. So if you could put a console on it and do the control-break startup procedure (don't know if it works on that model), you could probably decrypt the password.

Re:Vonage DigitalVoice

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a security flaw which can be exploited in some Cisco ATA-186 boxes to get the password. You might want to read this article, where this technique is used to set up two Vonage accounts on the same ATA.

Another alternative is deltaThree, a.k.a. iConnectHere.com. They are on the verge of offering VoIP via Cisco ATA-186 boxes. You buy your own box, then configure it. Here are their steps for configuring the ATA-186. From the looks of it, if you already have an iConnectHere.com account, it should already work, even though they have not officially started selling ATA-186 boxes yet. (I haven't tried it, so I don't know, although I have used their regular software-based stuff, and the quality was good on a 256K DSL line.)

The price of the service is only $8.95 a month (look toward the bottom of the page), but you pay per-minute charges on all outgoing calls (except for toll-free numbers). But, for calls to the U.S., this is only 2.9 cents per minute. The nice thing about having your own ATA is that, theoretically, you could change providers in the future, and simply reconfigure your ATA. However, Vonage will not let you use your own ATA (I asked them), and perhaps other providers in the future will be the same way. I guess their strategy is to make you pay for an ATA many times over, over the course of a few years... reminds my of cable companies that won't let you buy your own DOCSIS modem.

Re:Vonage DigitalVoice

[n8y]

All passwords for the Cisco ATA-186 with Vonage service are random 8-char numeric. The ATA-186 does not have a serial port, and can only be configured by the analogue phone connected to it or via the admin website (http://x.x.x.x/dev).

Re:Vonage DigitalVoice

[gafferted]

arnie_apesacrappin writes: the password encryption that was used to store the password in the config was ROT-13

n8y writes: All passwords for the Cisco ATA-186 with Vonage service are random 8-char numeric

ROT-13 of an 8-char numeric is spectacularly ineffective.

Andrew

Re:Vonage DigitalVoice

[grahamsz]

Cool except i need to actually refer you and since you are a coward here i dont have your email address...

contact me on

grahamsz at another.com

Re:Vonage DigitalVoice

[SkywalkerOS8]

You haven't bought the ATA-186 from Vonage, you are only borrowing it. You will need to return it when you cancel the service or you will get a $200 charge to the credit card they have for billing.

Re:Vonage DigitalVoice

[jmartrican]

The way it works with Vonage is that you are actualy buying the ATA-186 from them but as long as you are a Vonage customer you can't configure it. If you no longer use Vonage then you can restore factory default settings which removes all passwords and all previous settings from the ATA.

Re:Great service with Vonage. .. Latency??

[molo]

VOIP is a great idea and all, but what about latency? When I'm on a cell phone, the latency (and echo) is really annoying and noticeable. International calls are even worse.

How bad have you found it?

s'more haiku....

[_ph1ux_]

calls on internet
cost less than traditional
users migrating

Re:s'more haiku....

[Yokaze]

Internet (lags?) lacks
Quality of Service
Doves do return

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[raju1kabir]

So you need to boot up your computer if you're going to receive a call? How would you know? Telepathy?

Look into the Cisco ATA-186. You can plug an old-fashioned $5 POTS phone (or anything else that acts like one) into it. No computer required.

Sorry, That's not TRUE anymore.

[zzztkf]

Sorry. That's not true anymore as ADSL is widely available right now. I'm enjoying friend of mine living in California griping their low quality of service. I have 1.6Mbps service. Effective througput is around 1.4M. I'm planning to upgrade to 8M or 12M by the end of year. Cost is 16 dollar per month for 1.6M connection. There are less expensive service too.

Re:Sorry, That's not TRUE anymore.

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, are living 300 meters (or closer) around the Tokyo tower. Your opinion about "broadband" in japan doesnt fucking count, simply because you cant see past your .rm porn you download every night.

As far as I am concerned, broadband in japan doesnt exist for three reasons - its available in like 10% of the country, and where its available nobody uses it, and most important of all, there is no bandwidth in japan. NTT is overselling their data backbone (if such a thing exists, the fuckers would NOT give me bandwidth usage graphs for their backbone), 1000x times their current capacity, there is no fucking way in hell you are getting anything close to 1.6mbps unless you are downloading sponsored porn content from your ISP.

Re:Sorry, That's not TRUE anymore.

[zzztkf]

Thank you. I always enjoy people like you griping what you have and don't have. Your way of griping is very funny. NTT overselling??

Re:Sorry, That's not TRUE anymore.

[Anonymous Coward]

quote:
A provider in the US that oversells its capacity by 20 times, though, is considered a poor provider. Because of the costs of doing business in Japan, and the costs of international lines, it is common here to oversell capacity by 40 times or more; some providers in Japan have been known to oversell bandwidth by as much as 100 times.
end quote:

What's so funny about NTT overselling bandwidth? They do, because what they have is equivalent to a couple bridged 64k isdn lines coming out of their NOC.

Re:Sorry, That's not TRUE anymore.

[Anonymous Coward]

Looking at Worldcom colappsing, tha fact they
have booked false leased line sales to inlate
revenue to keep stock price was found.
Reportedly, actual utilization rate are less than 10%. It's far from overselling.

OTOH I found someone claiming telcos are overselling line capacity. Which is true?

As for NTT, most of my fiiends are owing ADSL.
I personally never felt any bottle neck between
me and NTT and my ADSL provider and never heard such a thing from friends. I'm living in
downtown area of Tokyo.

It suggests either they don't oversell or overselling donesn't matter for everyone.

Isn't it funny?

In Other News

[dmarx]

The TIAJ (Telephone Industry Association of Japan) announced that they would be asking the Diet [Japanese Congress] to pass the DMTA (Digital Millennium Telephone Act), which would make VoIP illegal. "These people get all the benefits of telephone service, but none of the profits go to us!", TIAJ chairman Shinji Shinjisan said. "This needs to change."

The $40 question

[sapped]

So, who do you work for? This sounds like something I could use.

Re:The $40 question

[papasui]

Charter Communications, not all areas are telephony ready but in Wisconsin the upper half currently is.

Re:The $40 question

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to be the first to inform you of this, but I live in Wisconsin, and Charter Communications sucks ass. I hope you go to hell.

Re:The $40 question

[shakah]

Do you know how it's implemented (e.g. SS7 switches, softswitch/PacketCable combo, etc.)?

fucking geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

get a life
who fucking cares where the line is broken

Phones

[t_allardyce]

Lots of people use email and IM to keep intouch with friends/relatives and avoid phone bills, especially students :) Most windows installations come with Netmeeting which is an audio/video phone and there are probably free/open alternatives. People need normal phones because they are.. simpler. They have an easy interface, they dont need to load up software, they dont crash, or need re-installing and they are cheap. Also, people like to have a handset that they can slam down, and it feels stupid leaning over your desk to talk to someone with a crappy little microphone. If your willing to pay a fee for the priveledge of having a line then they are fine. Also, i wouldn't trust my computer if i needed to phone in an emergency, infact i dont even trust my mobile, it crashes plenty.

Tin Foil Hat

[phatdawg]

I would be very wary of something like this right now. Call me paranoid, but with Bush and Ashroft chopping away at civil rights left and right, I would not move to an IP based phone system. Already then can track calls and such I'm sure, but there is bound to be some difficulty integrating some of this information. IP sounds too easy to get a handle on... besides the fast my phone line will work if the power goes out.

Re:Tin Foil Hat

[detect]

You're paranoid.

I know there's a lot of concern over personal rights but have you stopped to think that even if "The Government" can listen into everyone's conversations, etc, etc.. that such a huge organisation is actually organised enough to create useful information from all the data it collects?

I seriously doubt it.

Re:Great service with Vonage. .. Latency??

[Anonymous Coward]

well thats why the DSPs in voip devices have echo cancellation. but the latency issue is due to the fact that VOIP is a UDP stream for the voice... which isnt of the highest priority packet - and latency can make for a bad conversation.

however - you put up with a lot lower quality sounding call when you're making it for free.

disclamier - I have been out of the VOIP industry for about 2 years now... (I helped design and build quicknet's voip system)

Re:Great service with Vonage. .. Latency??

[Anonymous Coward]

I have heard an echo on the start of a call, but not for more than a second.

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[antirename]

Yeah, I have one next to my bed (my personal workspace tends to stay cluttered, and my roomate was complaining). Girls... anyway, the server got moved out of the living room and into my bedroom a week ago, along with a few other boxes. The fan noise you can tune out, but you really do notice the heat. Of course, this is the same girl that ran up $400 in calls to France and Ireland last month, which has me shopping for VOIP service... maybe she should be more tolerant of the overflowing ashtray and CDs everywhere since I'm trying to save HER money... nah, never happen.

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[danimrich]

Don't you think that 712,49 $ are a bit hefty?
Not for the Japanese, maybe.

SPAMmability

[gentlewizard]

On my home phone, I get telemarketing calls maybe 2-3 per day. On my cell phone, I don't get any. In my inbox, I get 40-100.

Seems to me we've crested the peak and are heading down the other side of the spam curve.

Re:SPAMmability

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell the telemarketers "Please take me off your calling list" verbatum, the volume will disapear inside a month, I promise.

Re:SPAMmability

[j-beda]

I think that "Please add me to your do-not-call list" is more precisely what you want to use. They probably result in the same thing, but you never know.

Re:SPAMmability

[gentlewizard]

I had an argument the other day with one of the telemarketers. I had made a point of saying, "Please add me to your Do Not Call list," but the rep seemed not to know the difference. He kept repeating that he would take me off his call list.

AFIK, they are NOT the same thing. The call list is not federally mandated, it is just what they use. The Do Not Call list is required by Federal law, and must be maintained for 10 years.

Question: CD-quality VoIP

[Ser_Olmy]

So, I'm curios... wil this ever allow me to have high quality voice communication? It seems to me that realy good audio is something that has never been a priority, either with POTS, analog or digital cellphones. why is that, btw?

Re:Question: CD-quality VoIP

[Anonymous Coward]

It goes back to the old, old days of telephone service (1800s). They could only transmit so much over a copper wire, so the decision was made to have telephones transmit only a specific frequency range (I forget the exact range, but that's the general idea). Do a little research on this and you'll find that if you were to play tones above or below X or Y MHz, you'd hear absolutely nothing on the other end of the phone. Over the years this "clipping" of frequency ranges seems to have just stuck. I suspect however that VoIP does/will do the exact same thing, for the exact same reason.

Re:Question: CD-quality VoIP

[Phreakiture]

Under an all-analog telephone network, calls between phones switched by the same CO, and not fed via a concentrator, all sounded excellent. Bandwidth was only limited by the capacitance/inductance of the telephone line itself, and the bandwidth of the phones on either end of the line.

This remained true after the networks started migrating to a digital format, as the trunk lines became digital, but the switches were still analog.

Analog trunk lines, however, were another story. Whenever a call got shuttled between CO's, it would be upper-sideband modulated onto carriers that were spaced 4000Hz apart. The practical effect of this is that the frequency of all of the sounds making up the phone call would be increased by n*4000 Hz; a 500Hz tone in a phone call on channel 3 of the trunk would be transmitted as a 12500Hz tone (3*4000+500). On channel 2, it would ba an 8500Hz tone, on channel 1, a 4500Hz tone, and on channel 0, a 500Hz tone.

In order that the different phone calls going down a given trunk did not interfere with one another, filtering was put into place. This filtering would roll off any sounds above 3700Hz and below 300Hz in frequency before modulating. This gave the trunk line a 600Hz guard band between concurrent calls.

As the system transitioned to digital, the low-pass filtering was kept in place in most cases (exception: AT&T True Voice) in order to minimize the incursion of a 60Hz signal from power lines. This also wiped out the next three harmonics (120Hz, 180Hz, 240Hz) and decimated the fifth harmonic (300Hz) of power line interference. (the exceptions would be using a comb filter instead of a low-pass) 8000 samples per second at 7 bits per sample was deemed adequate to match the sound quality of the analog network. This gives us a 56kb/s PCM stream. u-law (logarithmic) encoding is used to improve the dynamic range.

When the digital transition was completed, by replacing the crossbar switches with digital switches, the sound quality on local calls was decimated to the level of an inter-CO call. I remember this transition taking place in my town in 1993.

On wireless phones, another matter comes into play. More audio bandwidth requires more RF bandwidth.

On an analog phone, the bandwidth given is 30kHz of RF. The mode used is FM, which has two parameters which affect bandwidth: highest audio frequency and deviation. Deviation is how far off of center the carrier signal is allowed to move (moving the carrier's frequency is how you put audio on the signal--FM = Frequency Modulation). The minimum bandwidth of an FM signal is twice the sum of the deviation and the highest signal frequency. Raising the deviation improves the dynamic range; raising the highest signal frequency raises the frequency response.

Given that, the obvious answer is that we want to set the deviation at about 11kHz. Unfortunately, this isn't the correct answer. The deviation is 5kHz, as it is on most two-way FM radios.

So why the extra bandwidth? Simple. The space above 4kHz is used for signalling. If you were to tune in an analog cellular conversation on a scanner (don't do this, it is illegal!), you would hear a whistling sound above the conversation. That whistling sound is a data carrier. It is used to implement hand-offs, where the phone is switched from one cell to another, along with call ID, phone dialing (cell phones don't use DTMF to dial) etc.

On digital cell phones, this is simplified. Here, the bandwidth is depenendent on how much you want to compress the audio. The information that would be on the data carrier of an analog cell phone is instead nestled between the packets of compressed voice on the digital voice stream.

Going back to land lines again, if you have access to the digital nature of the network, and can supply your own codecs on both ends of the line, you can do a thing called switched-56. Radio stations use these to do remotes. Compression such as MP3 can be used, in a 56kb/s stream, to provide a high-quality (not CD quality, but not bad) audio stream over the telephone network.

I hope this answers your question?

The broadband killer app is here!

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody in Japan want to connect to broadband for this voip thingy. It is proven to be the killer app of broadband.

here is the translated page: yahoo! bb

how much is this yahoo!bb cost? about 22 bucks/month for 12Mbps?

Re:The broadband killer app is here!

[zzztkf]

2480 yen for 12mbps service.
2280 yen for 8mbps service.

both iclude VOIP service.

Re:The broadband killer app is here!

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent is moderated down, but I really, really hope your not trying to pass those prices off as what you would pay in Japan for internet.

1.5mbps ADSL goes for a little more than 5000yen a month (all monthly fees included)

Unlimited DUN access goes for less than 2000 yen... BUT: every phone call, internet or not, is 3.33yen a minute (well 9 yen every 3 minutes). So its still somewhat expensive

Re:The broadband killer app is here!

[Anonymous Coward]

I forgot this:

http://www.jens.co.jp/adsl/en/price.html

Re:The broadband killer app is here!

[Anonymous Coward]

Please check.

http://bbpromo.yahoo.co.jp/promotion/modem12/

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[raju1kabir]

Don't you think that 712,49 $ [cnet.com] are a bit hefty?

Yes, I do. It came for free with a 1-year Vonage contract, though. And I see one on eBay for $40 at the moment.

True, it's not just Japan

[xcomputer_man]

I recently helped set up a cybercafe in Akure, Nigeria. Nigeria's telecommunications infrastructure has been in a dismal state for a long time, and it seems people are eating up new technology as fast as they can whenever it's available. People want to communicate ... and wherever there's an alternative to the POTS, they'll rush for it.

For example, it was only recently (about a year ago) that cellphones were introduced to the market. Despite the fact that government regulatory bodies have made it unnecessarily difficult for companies to enter this market, there are already 3 operators, and within a year that industry has injected well over $1 billion into the economy. People don't bother getting land phones now...if there's cellular/GSM available they'll use it.

Cybercafes are starting up at an almost alarming rate in cities all over Nigeria. One of the big markets that these cybercafes cater for is VoIP ... one could easily make a significant profit by offering international phone service to the US over VoIP, charging approximately 40 cents/minute. Net2Phone, the leading carrier here, charges only 10 cents per minute. I once saw someone walk into the cybercafe wanting to place a call to Lagos (in the same Nigeria), even though it would cost him 200 Naira per minute (about $1.45!).

At the rate at which this market is booming, I can imagine what would happen when broadband access becomes widely available for cheap prices. VoIP could all but replace the POTS as the standard means for international telephony, with mobile phones for local/long distance calls. By the time there is a solid national communications network in place with enough bandwidth, VoIP could even become the dominant means for local and long distance phone service, especially since it's already gaining serious popularity. The POTS could easily become totally irrelevant!

As far as I know, the situation in most African countries is similar to that of Nigeria, although many of them may not have the level of development in the comms industry that we do. But I believe that this continent probably has the largest potential market for VoIP (and mobile phones) right now.

Re:True, it's not just Japan

[Anonymous Coward]

Cybercafes are starting up at an almost alarming rate in cities all over Nigeria.

I guess all those former dictators who need to transfer their millions of dollars and found me a decent person need to communicate from somewhere.

Re:True, it's not just Japan

[Anonymous Coward]

holy shit dude

I've read that verbatum before

wow, I never really believed there were professional trolls... now I know

DMTA

[Anonymous Coward]

The TIAJ (Telephone Industry Association of Japan) announced that they would be asking the Diet [Japanese Congress] to pass the DMTA (Digital Millennium Telephone Act), which would make VoIP illegal. "These people get all the benefits of telephone service, but none of the profits go to us!", TIAJ chairman Shinji Shinjisan said. "This needs to change."

Is it some sort of international requirement under Geneva convention that all fuckwit, backward, Luddite, technophobe laws have to be of the "Digital Millenium **** Act" form? What the hell is this?

Re:DMTA

[Anonymous Coward]

uhhh, it's a joke.

Encrpyt

[siskbc]

Anybody make a client for encrypting packets for VOIP so our fears of paranoia can be allayed?

interesting features

[AssFace]

I worked for a company that wrote software for a Japaense company's VoIP phones. Those things had some cool features - you could download pictures off the net and use them as icons on the phone's display, and you could download mp3s and use them as the ringer - a different one for various callers, as well as different "lines".

it was neat to see since really nobody uses them here in the states - but apparently it is really big over there.

Re:interesting features

[Anonymous Coward]

good god, whats so "interesting" about downloading a 10k bitmap (and paying for downloading it), just to stick it as background for your phone?
Who the fuck cares how your phone rings if your mother or I call you? All the japs in my office have their phones setup to the loudest volume with 100104102 different ringtones and when these fuckers get spammed with junk or someone decides to call they take time to answer to make sure everyone heard their stupid fucking music.
Fuck this, bring the normal analog ringing sound back, I dont want fucking japs downloading music/ringtones/whatthefuckeever wasting MY bandwidth and fucking wiht my ears.

Re:interesting features

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the fuck cares how your phone rings if your mother or I call you?

Because when you call, I won't stop fucking your old lady to pick up the phone.

Considering the fact that

[ctar]

In Japan, to get a POTS line from NTT, which is pretty much the only provider, you have to buy the rights to a telephone number. This costs about $700. You own this indefinitely, as far as I know, but its pretty much necessary if you want typical POTS service. (This is without the monthly charges which are around $30-40)

Its possible to get telephone from other providers (I get cable, internet, and phone all from JCom, the cable company)

Internet is getting very reasonable...8Mb DSL is being offered for around $40 a month now...

Quantum leap times consumers == ?

[driehuis]

Customers aren't ready for quantum leaps.

Besides, I'm not holding my breath for next generation wireless. Actually, I believe slow pickup will be its savior, because I just don't believe the bandwidth is there even with 3G to support the beautiful things the telcos had been promising consumers (128 kilobit/sec of data to your handheld? Either the per-byte charges will be insane, or the bandwidth will run out as fast as you can say "porn").

Telephone poles will be there for a long time in locations where burying the cable is not an option. And as long as a cable pair will bring a fast consumer connection to the Internet equivalent of a CO more reliably and cheaply than wireless, I think "fixed wireless" is a lost proposition. Until the next quantum leap in wireless comes around. With wireless, the bottleneck is measured in gigabits per square mile. With wires, it's measured in megabits per cable pair. It just doesn't add up, per square mile.

Wireless is nice as a supplement to wired. That's why i-mode is so popular: it fills an important low bandwidth niche.

Re:Quantum leap times consumers == ?

[sjwt]

We all know that a Quantum leap is
the smallest posible one dont we??

Realy they shoudlnt notice said leap
at all..

Re:Great service with Vonage. .. Latency??

[tHiNk411]

None at all. I seriously think its better quality then POTS.
DataBell is where I got mine, there a Vonage reseller, and they also offer to pay for your internet connection!

wiretaps

[driehuis]

It certainly is no worse that todays phone system. Every US carrier has tapping equipment (that you pay for), ostensibly for law enforcement only.

Your tax dollars at work.

With Internet, you at least have the chance that your calls get routed through China, South Korea Brazil or other rogue countries. Besides, there is way too much Internet traffic to look at.

A friend of mine worked at a big Dutch ISP, and our equivalent of the feds came and insisted they'd be allowed to place a wiretap. He showed them to the multi-wavelength fibers and wished them luck.

Re:Great service with Vonage. .. Latency??

[dolt]

UDP isn't the primary contribution to latency.

The largest contibution to latency is the encoding and decoding codecs -- that is, the translation from an audible analog signal to a digital signal and back again. The more compression that is desired, the longer this takes. The actual transmission over a network -- using UDP or anything else -- is negligable and has little to do with the packets being UDP or old-world "TDM" voice.

Of course, those UDP packets (the VoIP traffic) can be prioritized over non-VoIP traffic, if the routers support such prioritization and there is a way to mark high-priority packets. DIFFSERV is one such mechanism to do this.

Off-topic?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I think you could be on the right subject. I guess they must be talking about either the drug or cooking equiptment because I'll be damned if I've ever heard of POTS before.

Could someone please enlighten us as to what POTS is since the /. editors are too incompetent?

Thanks.

Re:Off-topic?

[NanoGator]

POTS stands for P.lain O.ld T.elephone S.ervice. It's an old acronym for your typical analog phone. It was frequently used when describing 56k vs. broadband, but seems to have died down after the dot-bombs.

I agree, spelling it out woulda been nice. But I did have fun with my pot joke. heh.

Worthless trivia: AT&T Broadband sometimes lists the city in which a customer is in in their addie, for some reason Portland was shortened to 'potlnd'. Heh. I see that every time I go on IRC.

Re:Off-topic?

[Anonymous Coward]

perhaps you should remove your head from your arse before criticising other people...I have been in the IT business for under 2 yrs and only got my 1st pc 3 yrs ago...yet I know the meaning of this acronym...

12Mbps service in Japan.

[zzztkf]

New standards are introuduced just recently. I don't follow up these detail. but they are called Annex.C and Annex.A.ex. They could be HDSL or VDSL although I don't what they exactly are. Everybody calls 12Mbps service as ADSL. As for service range, provider are claiming 12 Mbps service range is almost same as 8Mbps. I'm just a mile away from POC, so I don't care much about service range. There is a diagram between linespeed and distance from POC here. Sorry for poor information.

I was smoking crack

[jpmorgan]

See subject.

Fast ADSL, 11.something MBps.

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[Anonymous Coward]

If there is one thing that pisses me off, it's fucking eurotrash like yourself using a comma (",") as a decimal point. Goddammit, do it right! Use a fucking period ("."). What is you euroshit's issue?

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[Anonymous Coward]

I use this BB Phone VoIP system. (BTW, it's marketed as the Yahoo! brand over here in Japan.) You don't need a server, you don't even need a computer. You just plug your normal phone into the DSL modem, and it's done. Local calls are routed through the normal POTS, and long distance goes VoIP. No need to do anything different than you usually would, unless you specifically want to enable/disable VoIP for a specific call.

As far as the BB Phone service is concerned, it's run via aDSL over normal copper. There's no wireless, and the only reason it's popular is because it's cheaper than a normal call. The hillarious part is that you use a different type of service over the same freakin' infrastructure to get a 90% discount on something you always had.

And a side note to those whining "but Japanese landlines are so freakin' expensive to install...." This is no longer the case. I didn't pay the 72,000yen (approx. $600) to get my line. I used the new Type2 lines, which are the exact same thing as paying the above cost to "own" your line. The only difference is that I'm charged something like $3/month more for basic service than had I purchased the ownership itself. You do the math to see how long it takes to break even. I don't think I'll be using a traditional line that long.

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[Anonymous Coward]

so um, could I call my local dialup isp with my internet connection now?

mind... pain... ow

And they'll say...

[Tenebrious1]

"Have you rebooted your computer?" and "Let's check your dial-up networking settings..."

No, it won't make any difference.

Had I some equivilent of a way to do a traceroute, I could simply say, 'the link between switch-5.verizon.net and switch-32.verizon.net is dropping packets, please put that in the trouble ticket so the techs can fix it'.

Re:And they'll say...

[noah_fense]

Why does everyone think your computer has to be on to use VoIP?
Why does everyone think you need an IP phone for VoIP
All you need to convert to ip is an IAD (integrated access device) like the "book sized device" mentioned in the article. D-link makes one, along with many other customers.

Also, currently just about all carriers, in the US and abroad have trials or fully deployed carrier class VoIP solutions. And it is secure, and it doesn't take up more bandwidth, it actualy takes less bandwidth becuase POTS phones have gaurenteed 56k line accross the world, while with VoIP you can use codecs the support silence surpression. Within the next three years, anyone with a broadband connection will be offered VoIP beucase it is more affordable, has more features, and is easier to add new features to. The only thing that is holding most people back is the fact that most cable and dsl broadband networks don't support QOS.

Sure, when you pick up your phone you'll lose 56k of your precious bandwidth, or about 7k a second. And it is less secure, but if someone is intercepting the RTP (real time protocol) packet stream, chances are the call has been dropped. Also, the packetization rate will be between 10-20 ms, so if you lose a few packets, you won't even know, and the person interception them won't even have a clue.

Also, in Japan and Korea, cellular phones are much smaller. This is because they don't have to support the outdated analogue technology that current US wireless carriers must support.

Re:And they'll say...

[Tenebrious1]

Why does everyone think your computer has to be on to use VoIP?

Heh heh... maybe you just haven't had to deal with a telco/isp's helpdesk, or any helpdesk for that matter, and thus don't see the humor.

It won't matter, they have a standard "support" book they go through. Maybe it will change, maybe things will get better and they'll actually have a clue, and will understand you're trying to help them isolate a problem on their side of the demarc. But no, I doubt it. They'll make you go through rebooting your computer, even if it has nothing to do with the problem.

In Japan, all electronics are smaller. Houses are smaller. Cars are smaller. Laptops are smaller. Phones are smaller because they happen to like geewhiz tech and small implies better tech. I hate the Japanese slim phones, they are just way too fragile. Because I'm not the type to slip it gently into a suit pocket or a small purse. My phone is strapped to my hip, where it gets slammed into NYC pedestrians, scaffolding, handrails. It gets tossed into my backpack which gets dropped, thrown and banged around. Those slim phones wouldn't last a week.

I do like the ultraslim power supplies for the Japanese phones, that's something we need here. Let's get rid of those huge power bricks and get smaller, more energy efficient ones.

Re:VOIP requirements

[driptray]

The BB service in Japan does not require a computer or internet connection. You use your regular telephone.

It requires the following

• making a phone call to request the service
• waiting a week until they send you a small box
• plugging your regular phone into the box, and the box into the wall outlet.

Pretty easy really.

Sound quality

[Erpo]

Higher quality costs more money.

POTS is ok, but it's analog and travels over wires of unknown quality. You could replace the aging portions of the system, but that costs the phone company $. Analog cell phones are subject to static which is caused by the lack of a good (close) connection to a cell tower. You could put up more cell towers, but that costs the phone company $. Digital cell phone audio is very highly compressed to save bandwidth. You could allocate more bandwidth to each link, but RF spectrum costs the phone company $.

I've never used VoIP. However, I would tend to think that sound quality wouldn't be anywhere near CD quality just because of bandwidth constraints. Most people only get a pitiful 128-256kbps of upstream bandwidth from their homes with broadband internet, and, thanks to deregulation, choice in providers and quality of service is diminishing all the time. You could increase upstream bandwidth for customers, but that costs the phone (or cable) company $. I'm not saying that you couldn't get high quality (CD quality depending on who you talk to) audio over a 128-256kbps connection, but are you willing to dedicate your entire (possiby unreliable) upstream connection to your conversation?

Re:Sound quality

[Ser_Olmy]

"..but are you willing to dedicate your entire (possiby unreliable) upstream connection to your conversation?"

Actually, yes! :)

At least I'd like the option to do so. Think about it for a sec, long phonecalls are a pain - you actually have to strain to make out what's being said at times. I'm guessing a conversation would be more enjoyable at higher bitrates (besides, you're probably loosing out on nuances in the conversation when everything over a certain frequency is cut off - perhaps unconciously, but still...)

Re:Sound quality

[Erpo]

"..but are you willing to dedicate your entire (possiby unreliable) upstream connection to your conversation?"

Actually, yes! :)

Will your ISP let you? The ISP business model is based on buying a lot of bandwidth and betting it won't be used so if every Bob and Susan is yammering away on the internet at "peak usage" time, the pipes will definitely get clogged. That means dropped packets for everyone, including legitimate data users.

I'm guessing a conversation would be more enjoyable at higher bitrates (besides, you're probably loosing out on nuances in the conversation when everything over a certain frequency is cut off - perhaps unconciously, but still...)

Conversations sound much better at higher bitrates. Sure, very high frequencies are cut off, but only the ones you can't hear (or produce with your mouth). The effect you get from cutting down the bitrate is that the audio sounds (for lack of a better word) burbly-wurbly. You can sometimes hear this on digital cell phones.

My point is this: While clearer calls would be nice, the costs would be too great. Joe Average would rather settle for less fidelity than pay more money, and Joe Average is 99% of the telephone company's (residential) business.

MOD THIS UP.

[Anonymous Coward]

The phone company could teach you a lesson in business. The local baby bell here in Lincoln Ne is Lincoln bell formerly called Lincoln Telegraph. They have a phone museum that shows phones used half a century before either of us was born.

In corporate america there are few companies more secure in technology that the phone companies. AT&T has 10s of thousands of patents. Unstable dorky data companies like worldcom threaten the stability of the best engineered networks in the entire world.

The bones

[achurch]

With a book-sized modem, one gets voice quality comparable to that of regular voice lines -- at a fraction the cost.

They forget to say, "and with a hundred times the random dropouts."

Granted, I haven't personally tried the service so I can't say anything from personal experience, but here in Japan the Yahoo BB! (ADSL) service is widely recognized as the worst in the country in both connectivity and customer service, and I have to admit I'd be surprised if they can do much better than that on VoIP. Thanks, but I'll stick with my 7c/3min NTT phone line for now.

The funny thing about Yahoo BB

[Anonymous Coward]

is the Japanese pronounce it as one long word:

yafoobeebee

ADSL and Net2Phone works for me

[Trane Francks]

Maybe Net2Phone doesn't offer perfect audio quality, but it's definitely good enough. With full-time ADSL here, I use Net2Phone for all my international calls. What works out well is that although I'm in Japan, I've registered stateside, so when I make calls to North America, it actually costs me less than were I to use Net2Phone to call inside Japan.

With domestic long distance calls being highly competitive in Japan now, there's little incentive for me to get Yet Another Modem to take advantage of the free calls as described in the article. Most of my contact is via e-mail anyway, so phone calls are a rare occurrence in this household.

Not entirely accurate...

[artemis67]

Yes, VoIP has been around for a few years now... however, it's only just now getting to the point where it's not a toy. I remember a couple of years ago playing around with DialPad. I was seriously considering dropping my long distance carrier for the free DialPad as a means of offsetting the cost of a cable modem connection -- that is, until I actually used it. DialPad was so wretchedly awful that it killed my optimism for the service (and I *really* wanted to make it work). There was an echo on the line and a 2 second delay, in addition to the obvious drawback of having to always use a headset plugged into your computer to make phone calls. (Now there are IP phones that don't need to be plugged into a computer -- nice!)

Anyway, it's very difficult to justify the savings on long distance when the quality is so bad, and traditional long distance in the US can be had for as low as 2.9 a minute if you shop around.

Also, keep in mind that you won't be eliminating one bill, but merely shifting your money from one vendor to another. As the need for broadband becomes more prevalent, I believe you'll see broadband providers tax usage more and more to pay for their infrastructure. There's already been /. stories about this happening...

So, no, VoIP is not yet a clearly better choice for the American consumer. give it another 10 years, I say. And by that time, maybe the POTS providers will be the ones leading the charge.

NTT Stopped all ISDN and Analog Line Investment

[ittanmomen]

In a typical Japanese bold strategic move, NTT declared recently that from now on it will only invest into VoIP equipment. Obviously they do not see a future in normal telephone services. As there are glass fibre connections available basically to every household in Tokyo, it makes sense to have just one line going in.

A 100M Fibre connection with one IP costs around 15,000 Yen (~130USD per month).

It seems that most people get around 60 Mbit out of this connection, with the bottleneck being the router.

cell phones will never replace pots

[Ilan Volow]

But a 3G wireless phone might one day replace your microwave oven. Assuming you have enough talk time to cook both sides of the terriyaki.

Re: Internet Phones Replacing POTS In Japan

[valkadesh]

I dunno, man. You can't get stoned with an Internet Phone.

Re:Boot your computer, I'm gonna call you !!

[danimrich]

Just because you're American doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow your rules.

My friends on slashdot

[grahamsz]

If anyone else needs a referral then let me know - 40 bucks in it for each of us :)

Or if you have any other questions then i'll try, although i've shared both the good and less-good about vonage.

Gee..that's odd

[Marc2k]

A friend of mine in the US Air Force just transferred out to Okinawa, Japan, and he pays ~ $30 a month for something like 200 hours of dialup. The parent node *WAS* talking about dialup, not xDSL (which I don't think was an option to him).

Re:Gee..that's odd

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

As for your friend, please check JENS(http://www.spinnet.jp/service/indexe.html).
It costs 2000yen per month with unlimit dial-up
connection. Service points are available in Okinawa. JENS is former ATT world service and
its service is available in combination with
NTT and a few of other ADSL provider.

I'm not sure your friend home is covered by ADSL
provider, as Okinawa is relatinvely rural are in Japan. Unless ADSL is available, please give hime
an adivice to try wireless flat rate internet
connection. Services are provided by brand name
"Air H"", or "P-in Compact". line speed is
128K.

# Don't blame me those strange brand name.

Re:Gee..that's odd

[zzztkf]

Hi,

As for your friend, please check JENS(http://www.spinnet.jp/service/indexe.html).
It costs 2000yen per month with unlimit dial-up
connection. Service points are available in Okinawa.
JENS is former ATT world service and
its service is available in combination with
NTT and a few of other ADSL provider.

I'm not sure your friend home is covered by ADSL
provider, as Okinawa is relatinvely rural are in Japan.
Unless ADSL is available, please give hime
an adivice to try wireless flat rate internet
connection. Services are provided by brand name
"Air H"", or "P-in Compact". line speed is
128K.

# Don't blame me those strange brand name.

What about clarity/SNR ?

[USS.Spock]

Hello, I would like to know what will be the quality of this kind of setup ? What about SNR ? Lets say i lose my route to the ISP, is there usually a redunant line ? What are the advantages other than the cost ?

Limited Area Codes

[Hallow]

It's a shame the area codes to choose from are limited. I'd definately try it out, but most of my family and friends would have to call me long distance or on my cell.

Also, does data work over VoIP? I know it's not a "good" thing to do, but my DirecTivo needs to dial out about once a month via ppp (to report pay per views, etc. - long downloads are actually done over the tv now).

Even worse...

[Xenographic]

Even worse, imagine getting calls all the time that say: "I send you this call in order to have your advice..."

Re:Great service with Vonage. .. Latency??

[jmartrican]

Decoding and encoding add about 10 - 20ms. The Vonage service uses G711, which means no compression and no latency for decoding and encoding. Most of the latency comes from bad ISP's.

Cool idea, but there is still room for improvement

[anactofgod]

Specifically, why should I have to pay any per-minute fees for long distance calls overseas?

As soon we could do that, we truly will be one global community. Pick up the (VoIP) phone, and call just as easily as you would locally.

Imagine what "Crank Yankers" could do with this technology!!!

*boGGle* ...anactofgod...

("Hello. I'm looking for a Jacque Strauppe, please.")

Just Got Back From J-Land

[Zonaflash]

No worries about the wired situation in Japan. Landlines are exorbitantly expensive due to the NTT monopoly, but the deflationary forces, the local fetish for new technology and new competition means that things are much better just in the last few years. (1) ADSL is available for less than US$30/month in most places with unlimited landline usage and no additional fees. (2) (Free) internet cafes with a lot of terminals are available, though slow. (3) The cellphone technology is outstanding. They've had video phones commercially available in the major cities for about 10 months now. These phones have color LCDs and a video cam and are no bigger than the phones here. Cheers, and enjoy Japan,