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Covad On The Mend
ewhac writes "The San Francisco Chronicle is reporting that Covad, who filed for bankruptcy protection last year, is slowly regaining strength. With $246 million in cash, Covad claims it has enough to carry it to profitability. They've also struck a deal with AOL to provide high-speed connectivity to AOL customers. The battle isn't over, though, as Pacific Bell continues to undercut Covad's offerings. Covad is effectively Pacific Bell's only remaining competitor for DSL service. As a happy Covad customer through Speakeasy.net, I'm pleased I won't be forced into PacBell's or AT&T's hands any time soon."
So you aren't getting away from them either way.
-- Julien Pierre http://www.madbrain.com/blog
I just found out my local broadband ISP, Cox Communications, is helping the RIAA track down mp3 traders. I spoke with a friend of mine today that knows someone in their IT department, who told my friend that the way it works, at least with my ISP, is that your ISP provides the RIAA with a list of all the IP's in the range that Cox leases, and the RIAA monitors p2p networks such as Kazaa, Morpheus, etc. When the RIAA finds a trader with an IP in that range, they contact Cox with the IP, Cox pulls up their records(3 month leases, last time I checked), and then, with the cooperation of the RIAA, decides a "punishment" based on how much mp3 downloading you actually did. Apparently the "punishment" can range from a warning to perminent cancilation of service from Cox, all the way to the RIAA bringing legal action against you. It was enough to scare me, and I've toned down my downloading accordingly. I really hope my ISP is the exception more than the rule when it comes to such an intrusive man(witch)hunt I see unfolding here.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
All right! Now AOL users can find out 50 times quicker how much their ISP sucks!
Calm down, it's *only* ones and zeroes.
thank god for AOL
I'm a UUNET (gasp Worldcom) customer who uses Covad for my telco. When I first heard about Covad filing Chapter 11, I immediately called UUNET/Worldcom to determine what to do if Covad were go out of business. Worldcom, essentially said I would be shit out of luck. So for the last 6 months or so, I've been a little on edge about whats happening with Covad, but now that I see Covad recovering, I'm happy.
And then Worldcom filed Chapter 11.. Luckily Covad supports more than just Worldcom in my area, unlike how Covad is the only telco that can provide me DSL.. Funny how Covad uses Verizon lines, yet Verizon can't qualify me for DSL and Covad can..
Oh well, I don't like Verizon anyway, Go Covad!
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
I just moved and needed to have my DSL moved as well. After Covad did their thing, my DSL didn't work so I called Earthlink and they said that Covad won't do anything about it. They will install once, "test it" and if it works, great and if not, oh well, they won't fix it. That's how they're cutting costs and heading towards profitability. No support whatsoever. A call to Pac Bell got me working DSL in 5 days.
I can't really say I blame them though it does suck for the ISPs that rely on Covad.
if you base your entire identity around a second-rate OS, it's not really suprising.
Huh?? This is a story about COVAD the internet access provider, not Microsoft Windows.
I was a completely happy customer with Speakeasy.net DSL in my old apartment. Until I moved...
:)
For some reason Speakeasy.net just couldn't figure out how to cancel my service. It took them nearly 5 months to figure it out and it cost me quite a bit of $$ in the meantime.
Overall, I was darn happy with the service. It never had connectivity problems.
The only suggestion I can make is: 1) Don't move. and 2) Don't cancel.
If you follow those you should be just fine
-brain
In our area, DirecTV DSL (formerly Telocity) also competes against PacHell. They've done a good job for me for the last two years.
With $246 million in cash, Covad claims it has enough...
I wonder where they keep 246 million dollars in cash. If anyone has the address, please englighten.
As a Covad tech will tell you, there really isn't much they can do if your line sucks. I'm assuming you're talking about a line-shared (consumer) service, not a 2nd-line service. The Telco in your area has a huge advantage here for shitty lines, as they have considerable control over what they can do to clean them up (pull new ones, replace filters/taps/et al on the line, etc.) Covad has virtually none of these options, as those that they can ask the ILEC to perform cost so much that they'll never make a profit on your service.
That's the way it is - control of the physical line gives the ILECs a big advantage here, and there simply is very little that Covad can do. That's why you see the "test it and go" policy of Covad - they have to take it as it is, and generally there's nothing they can do to improve it without spending big chunks of cash (I mean, is it worth it to spend $200 to remove the taps on a consumer line which you're only making $7 per month profit on? Not really....)
I would be worried about Verizon resell DSL to providers such as Earthlink and provide it customer direct. I have also heard from a Verizon employee that in the near future they plan to offer DSL for $30 i'm not sure if thats an introductury rate or permanent.
Being a customer of both Covad and Speakeasy, I have to say that I do like Covad. Speakeasy, on the other hand, is a whole different story. Maybe it's just me, but the problems I've had with them have been significant and costly.
It all started a year ago, when Covad filed for bankruptcy. At the time, I was on XO's network (having been grandfathered in, since I was a residential customer of Concentric, before they changed to XO and dropped residential offerings). I truly liked XO, but with Covad's Chap11 scare, I needed some sort of reliability, and XO couldn't give it to me. They had a fall-back plan for their business customers if Covad would kick the bucket, but we remaining residential customers were out of luck. Therefore, I began looking for a new ISP. Having heard good things about Speakeasy, it was a natural choice to switch.
This is where things started to get hairy. I went through the whole ISP switch process at Speakeasy, but somehow they neglected to complete my switch. My $90/mo 1.5mbps/386kbps line through Covad that I had with XO was switched over to Speakeasy, and they even started billing me for the extra IPs and domain hosting service I ordered. However, they didn't start billing me for what they intially told me was a $90/mo line, same as what I had with XO. (note: This is the first place I screwed up. I didn't get the 1.5/384 @ $90/mo offer in writing, since it was clearly listed on their website. This came back to haunt me later.)
After several months, I decided I didn't want to get charged a huge lump sum for back-charges, so I notified Speakeasy that they never completely provisioned my account. They were quite nice about it, and promptly finished the provisioning order. However, since August when I switched and October when I notified them about the billing problem, they replaced the 1.5/384 straight ADSL @ $90/mo offering with a 1.5/128 line-sharing RADSL @ $90/mo offering. Imagine my surprise, then, when I get my next bill and see not a $90*4 charge, but a $250*4 charge! All of a sudden, my $90/mo line had turned into a $250/mo line. Obviously this was unacceptable, and I spent the next two weeks getting passed around among the various customer service representatives at Speakeasy, all of whom promised to figure out the problem and solve it, but none of whom actually did. (note: Had I gotten the original offer in writing at the time of switch, they'd have had no choice but to give me the 1.5/384 line @ $90/mo like it was when I signed up. But I didn't. c'est la vie.)
After two weeks of bullshit and getting the run-around, I decided I would split the difference and convert up to 768 SDSL ($160/mo), if Speakeasy would reduce the $250/mo back charges to $90/mo. After another week of negotiating this deal, I finally got a useful rep, and was able to get my back charges reduced and the new line provisioned. (note: It took another several days to iron out this conversion, because first I was told my initial ADSL line, being a straight connection and not line-sharing, would be sufficient for SDSL. Then I was told it wouldn't, and I'd need to go through the whole order process again.)
In the end, I had to have Verizon and Covad both come out to run a new loop. Verizon was surprisingly prompt, arriving two days after I completed my order, and Covad, while scheduled for a week later, actually noticed that Verizon finished their work promptly and notified me that they would be out the very next day. Go Covad! At that point, I had my new loop, but I had to fight with Speakeasy for another week for them to get it provisioned and into their system, and give me back my previous IPs (easier to do that than it would be to change DNS records and wait 24 hours for them to fully propogate).
Moral of the story: When dealing with Speakeasy, get everything in writing. Document who you talk to and when, and what promises they made. If they don't keep those promises (even if it's something as trivial as them saying they'll call you in a day, and they don't), call them on it. And don't be lulled into thinking they're a good company simply because the reps act supportive. They'll lie to you through their teeth, making promises they never intend to keep.
Oh well, only a couple months left on this contract. Maybe I need to research another ISP switch. Sigh ...
I'm glad to see Covad coming back. For DSL to survive intact it needs to have numbers, both in subscribers and suppliers. Covad always provided good service to their customers and I hope this pattern continues, as it's a rare thing among telecoms today!
The solution, then, is for Covad to pass these costs on to the consumer. Worst case, they lose a customer. Best case, the customer gets pissed, asks Covad what he can do about it, Covad tells him it's because of the monopoly held by the ILEC, and the customer gets together other Covad customers who have been similarly screwed and files a class-action against the ILEC. More likely, most people will fall somewhere in between, meaning they'll pay Covad's fee, and be happy about it, because at least they don't have to deal with the slimy ILEC directly.
From the article:
Well, duh. All they needed to do is go online and upgrade from Management V1.0 to Management V2.0 and then do incremental upgrades there after.
Many parts of the areas up here in Washington are left dangling by Verizon. So the only high speed dsl type service is IDSL.
I would love more bandwidth at a cheaper price, but Verizon would rather sell DSL in high income markets. I even saw an article about a lawsuit, ATT broadband being sued for not putting cable in low income urban areas. I hope the lawsuits spreads to Telcos and dsl. I found out when the equipment arrives, Redmond is winning out over other areas. Pisses me off, Verizon says they will have the equipment in for the last 2 years for DSL. My phone line qualifies, but they are at capacity at my central office. And no cable modems in my area due to a mom and pop cable company moved in and made everyone agree to long term contracts. (screwed again...)
But, back to the IDSL, its only 144/144K, but its connect 24/7 (not like isdn), Covad even has an Sys-Admin package that lets you have 2 IPs, and allows you to run servers. Great thing about it, its the lowest ping ive seen around, 30ms to game servers in Seattle via SpeakEasy. Covad and Speakeasy has been pretty good, other than the price for idsl. (-;
You may see them do this sometime in the future. However, this kind of option requires a fair amount of work on the back end to make sure that the costs are passed through (and that all sorts of authorizations are obtained). Fundamentally, a small percentage of people will take advantage of this, so it's not worth the effort until Covad's making a profit.
You have to pick the low-hanging fruit first, then go after the upper stuff when you've stopped starving.
I _WAS_ a Speakeasy.net subscriber, until Covad starting screwing me. After about 2 Months of perfect, fast and latent free (for the most part) service, Covad started to screw me. Every 2 weeks, almost on the dot, my DSL would go "wonky". I'd get a 296ms first hop, (usually 5ms). I'd have to call them and they'd deprovision, and reprovision my DSL. It worked. It was a hastle, but it worked... for two months. Then Covad filled Chpt 11 and I was screwed. Same thing happens, and Covad _REFUSES_ to do anything for me. Something about you need 400+ms or 30% PL Before they'll have someone look into it. I promptly canceled my DSL, and went with Road Runner WI. I've had no problems (besides some Ahole garbage truck driver pull my cable line off the pole). I really did like my DSL Tho, it was more stable. But the bandwidth with RR is amazing.
I guess Covad just killed all their customer service people to cut overhead and increase profites. To bad I'll NEVER suggest anyone to use Covad. Their loss.
What everyone here fails to realize is that SBC, parent of Pacbell, is deploying Remote ADSL Terminals based off of fiber lines from the CO called PROJECT PRONTO. It will completely eliminate Covad within SBC territory in the next 5 years or so. SBC converts Central Offices over to PRONTO ONLY, once all the lines have access to the Remote Terminals. I work at an ISP and have seen it happen at SBC and other LEC's. Covad cannot resell SBC or other ADSL service from fiber boxes/remote terminals, and thus they Covad will start to die a slow death at the hands of SBC. Anyone care to challenge my opinion?
you're paying through the nose for your happiness.
I worked as an accountant for an independent auditor handling the Covad bankruptcy proceedings.
This information is fraudulent, Covad is in dire financial straits, and there's absolutely no way they have two nickels to rub together. They have about 10 million in assets, and absolutely no operating capital. (what the rags like to call 'cash')
I haven't seen any infusion of cash in the form of an investor bailing them out.
Either the San Francisco Tabloid is in error, or there are some desperately dirty goings on.
This smells of 'creative accounting'. I'm surprised Bushs financial swat-team hasn't kicked in the door yet.
Covad customers, beware. This company is dirty.
i had charter communications and their service suckED! cable in general blows chunks however the covad zero outages since i switched back to DSL. Thanks covad for putting up with those ma bell basterds!
Covad failed to show up for the first two install appointments for my Speakeasy DSL in Boston. I took the day off both times. They didn't call, they didn't email, they simply didn't show up. Corporate, monopoly-bearing arrogance at its very worst. I complained to Speakeasy and the guy I talked to admitted that they got a lot of complaints about that. When they finally showed up one night, there was no apology, no explanation, just the you're-lucky-we're-here-at-all arrogance you'd expect from a company with no real competition (at least at the time, don't know how it is now).
Aren't people like this supposed to be the first against the wall when the revolution comes? Did it come? Were they against the wall? Screw them, I say, for my experience at least.
-- http://frobnosticate.com
I was so loathe to shell out $50+ a month to Verizon (or to some local ISP who was sending $38 of that on to Verizon) that after my first two DSL providers went bankrupt, I went back to 56k for six months.
And then about nine months ago Covad started selling service in our area and I jumped back in. They've been working great. I can't remember any downtime with them during "home" hours, which come to think of it, is better than my previous experiences. Worth checking out if you're looking at DSL.
--LP, who has no other ties to Covad other than being a satisfied customer, although is admittedly biased against Nynex->Bell Atlantic->Verizon due to past experiences...
I have nothing but kudos for Speakeasy and hope Covad will pull through
I just want to say that Speakeasy has been great for me.
One of the great things about Speakeasy has been their customer service. They understand Linux, know what traceroute is and can and will check things for you. I only needed that help once in the last three years.
May be location dependant - I'm in San Francisco.
The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech.
-- Molly Ivins
I doubt Covad will fall. I work at a company who delivers content to online jukeboxes. As a company who distributes online music, we have a wide variety of connection providers. Our largest provider is Megapath, and the vast majority of those connections are marked Megapath-Covad. Of something near 700 active connections 368 are Megapath. We favor Megapath and Covad because their support is by far, above and beyond, the best. I work as a liaison between the owners of the remote jukeboxes and the ISPs who serve them, and when I work on anything other then a Megapath connection a deep fear grips my heart.
I've had broadband providers tell me that it didn't matter that my DSL connection could be put to shame by a standard 33.6. If they rolled a truck, and the connection was up, it would cost us. Oh, and they didn't have to fix it either. Still other ISPs take an approach of install it, if it works great, if not screw you there are others to sell our poor service to. Not Megapath. Its almost to the point where they will hunt you down and force you to ensure the problem is solved, or their ticket isn't closed. Its this level of organization and commitment to the customer that ensures that we remain loyal to them regardless of cost. Its just a pity that they are not 100% nation wide, otherwise we would have nothing but Megapath connections.
They've been great in the Seattle area, too. No complaints.
There are plenty of things that a CLEC can do (or can get the ILEC to do) if your line doesn't support DSL out of the gate. There are usually other pairs they can try, or alternate wiring that can be used in the CO, or poor stretches of your line that can be replaced. There are also some problems that are easy to fix, but difficult to diagnose. Of course every hour they spend trying to make your line work is 6-12 months of profit they loose paying technicians, so there is no incentive for them to try and solve problems. There are commercial DSL providers that will solve the problems for you if you are willing to pay. I have worldcom as my CLEC (but not as my ISP), and they were very helpful getting DSL to work in my location in a situation that covad would have walked away from.
Experienced telco labor is expensive, and you can't have cheap broadband, free instalation, and good technicians all at the same time. You only get to pick two.
I worked for Rhythms back in the day, there was not alot of available, experienced personel. Managing IDSL/ ADSL/ SDSL installations and supporting endusers with vast differences in abilities ( is the endpoint plugged in? )was a huge challenge. I had Speakeasy / COVAD install a SDSL circuit over a year ago. Not one negitive in the entire process, I do wish the price were a bit more reasonable though, where is that cheap, always on service we were promised? Speakeasy wouldn't release my /27 reverse dns, but they did configure the reverse to resolve as I requested. Great to do biz with.
one thing that covad can do is change the type of service... some crappy lines are good enough for different types of (usually) more expensive dsl connections... overall covad is very good and i am very pleased with my covad/speakeasy dsl... but im am kind of lucky because my line length is jsut a few feet as the local dsl curcuit is next door :)... but dont slam covad for not having mroe control than they possibly can...
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
Does anyone know when will more _affordable_ DSL (20-30 dollar USD price range) services will be out? Ive always wanted to get DSL, but its average price tag is far out of my budget...
I hope they're working on making their backend as good as their ad campaign, because all I hear all day is radio spots for Covad, and every time I turn on the TV I see one.
The first thing I thought was, 'They're gone again if all they do is buy ads'. Here's hoping they'll successfully manage themselves this time around; I doubt there will be a 3rd chance.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
I dealt with Covad when I worked at Earthlink, and they were WONDERFUL to deal with! They gave us all the tools we could possibly want to monitor connection status from the DSLAM, we had access to their trouble tickets online, and they were quick to respond to problems. Plus, they offered better speed and availability than many of the ILECs.
It sounds like they may have gone downhill since then, I don't know. Now that they're back on their feet financially, I'd still have to recommend Covad if they offer service in your area (they have no DSLAM in my CO so I'm using Qwest as my LEC). Of course, the choice of ISP may be more important to you; some ISPs will only work with certain LECs (my current employer does not offer service through Covad).
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
How odd, I can't get DSL installed by any ISP faster then 3 weeks, and I have hundreds of business class connections. Your either a hot blonde with big boobs who sent nudie pictorials to the IW techs, or your a dirty stinking liar. The probability of a hot blonde with big boobs commenting on slashdot is slim to none, so yeah... I don't believe you.
i didnt have a statement to make, i just wanted to brag to my friends that i was the first to get a first post on slashdot.
anybody have any thoughts about what will happen now that the telcos are not forced to share lines? the appeal was not granted, so this should be a huge problem for everyone but the telcos - line sharing is no longer government-mandated as of jan 2003.
speakeasy pros:
2 ips for same price as covad
no pppoe
speakeasy cons:
pop located in seattle for st louis customers, and they wouldn't relocate us to a closer one (chicago, etc). latency was over 100ms to anywhere
service started going out around 3-5am for periods up to 2 hours in the summer
covad pros:
pop located in chicago for st louis customers, 40ms latency to anywhere.
no install/hardware fees (they even let me skip their 'free after rebate' zyxel router because i didn't want to hassle with it and use my speakeasy service's dsl bridge)
price just dropped to $70/month for 384/1.5!
covad cons:
uses pppoe for static ips (?!) and only offers 1 static ip for telesoho service at regular price
had to sign up for another year to get the above-mentioned price drop
all things considered, i would recommend both
I have not been happy with their service latly.
Been gettin horrible intermittent packet loss, which
makes the net unusable for anywhere from minutes to hours at a time.
Worse yet try to call for support and cannot reach a live person- get horrible loud noise and hung up on.
And when you do reach somone, its always the level one tech guy who can barely understand how to ping. Let alone the comcept of an intermittent problem.
To bad they keep their prices a secret instead of posting them on their web site.
I'll third this comment. Speakeasy has been great for me (I live in the Baltimore area.) In fact, I recently moved, and after rebates, I get $50 in my pocket. Now what ISP gives you $50 to move?
I wonder where they keep 246 million dollars in cash. If anyone has the address, please englighten.
If you're planning on robbing the bank where Covad keeps the cash in a checking account, don't. Bank robbery is a felony in all fifty U.S. states and in most other jurisdictions worldwide. Besides, the bank has probably already loaned out the deposit to other borrowers anyway.
Will I retire or break 10K?
After Bell Atlantic (Verizon) DSL fiasco which ended after ~1 year of BA's assurances of ability to deliver service yet never delivering it. (It took an official complaint to NY State Public Service Commission) I am happy to say that I'm BA/Verizon free.
But here comes the Covad problem. Recently they've enabled my CO, BUT since I do not have BA for as my local provider, (have MCI atm) they refuse the services pointing to some rediculous 'inside wiring' or such sole ownership of BA.. Now I will call the NYSPSC.. as well as MCI and BA itself (and threaten with a lawsuit if necessary), but I've been told people were able to get around this stupidity by other means. If anyone cares to share, I'd be much appreciative.
This is a story about COVAD the internet access provider, not Microsoft Windows.
That is unless, in the future, Covad decides to require proprietary software to connect to its network (think AOL) and refuses to make that software either 1. Linux/BSD native or 2. Wine compatible.
Such a situation is not very far-fetched. From the blurb: "They've also struck a deal with AOL to provide high-speed connectivity to AOL customers." If the deal includes gradually moving customers from Covad to AOL service, and AOL doesn't release a Linux client, Covad customers who use Linux may become screwed.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Covad,
I live in the SHADOW of the AOL building in Loudoun County, VA. My town is filled with AOL Millionaires renovating 100 year old houses.
I HAVE NO BANDWIDTH! I am paying $150 a month for an ISDN line and a stitic IP address... WHAT DO YOU THINK I'D BE WILLING TO PAY FOR a 384k DSL?
According to the rumor mill around here, the phone company's CO has a big empty room, built especially for you, just waiting for you to come in and drop all your nice equipment to give the area various DSL flavors... But you haven't done anything! Originally, people were saying you couldn't handle the capacity of installs you'd get here, with all this pent up demand. Then, people were saying you couldn't AFFORD to do anything...
Tell you what... Take some of that $245 million in CASH, and GET THE EQUIPMENT IN HERE. Hire a few people to do some installs and support the area, and guess what? THAT IS HOW BUSINESSES FIND CUSTOMERS AND MAKE MONEY! THAT IS THE PATH TO PROFITABILITY! Find the customers willing to pay out the ASS for your service, and MAKE THEM HAPPY!
Sincerely,
someone who has your money in his pocket, and all you need to do to get it is give me some frelling bandwidth!
I signed up for DSL though Covad.Net, their "in-house" ISP, in winter/spring of 2002. I enumerate the things that made it a nightmare:
1) Although the sales guy "prequalified my lines" and eagerly sold me their high-bandwidth package, my service level was abyssmal. When I complained, they reminded me that my contract specified no service level guarantees and that I was on the hook for $250 cancellation fee + hardware cost if I quit. Now, I believe that I was having a last-mile problem that was out of Covad's control, but that's such a common problem that I find it predatory for Covad to not offer a trial period. Am I a sucker for not reading the small print? Sure, I'll cop to that. But that don't make it good business.
2) Their service is not "always on" as they advertise - it is PPOE.
3) Hardware support laughable. Covad.Net customer service: "Our obligation to support your hardware ends when your first Windows machine is visible on our network and receiving packets." What about my PPOE-aware WAP? Sorry pal.
I got out of the hellhole when I accidentally called Covad Communications (NOT the consumer ISP) and they gave me the snail-mail address of the Customer Service director and I sent a nastygram. I then sheepishly ran back to 8-limbed god that is AT&T Broadband with full knowlege that it held a dildo in each of its hands.
Rumor has it (news.admin.net-abuse.email) that Covad may have eliminated its network abuse department, that spammers have set up shop there and that SPEWS already has some Covad blocks in their spam advisory lists.
Too bad. Covad, and by reference, Speakeasy used to be the good guys as far as spam went. Now, they are right up there with Sprint, UUNet, and QWest as spamhosts.
Be careful if you sign up with Covad. You may not be able to send email to a large fraction of internet hosts, especially if you host your own mail server.
JMHO.
Wow, just goes to show how people really don't read their contracts. When you physically move locations, DSL does not follow you. That is why your service didn't work at your new place. If you would've called your ISP upon moving and canceled and resubmitted a new order after the move was complete, you still would've had DSL through Covad. Now you're stuck with PacBell. Short story long is that PacBell warns Covad every time one of Covad's customers makes a change to their phone service; Covad could take action and sift through thousands of the notifications each month, follow up with a phone call to the end user, yada yada yada, try and save that customer, etc. If they happen to get a positive answer, they must respond electronically to PacBell stating that they want to have the DSL moved along with the POTS line. Covad researched this and it requires so many man hours to do, it is not worth it. Instead, they tell their ISP's to have end users cancel and reorder when they move.
AT&T DSL is Covad. Read the documentation on AT&T's Website.
I don't think I've ever seen a (reverse) pump and dump scheme on slashdot before.
Plenty of the traditional kind though (RHAT, LNUX).