Slashdot Mirror
Inside Ximian
An anonymous reader writes "Linux and Main is running a story of a visit to Ximian headquarters and a talk with Nat Friedman, Miguel de Icaza, and Jon Perr about GNOME2, Ximian 2, and getting Linux onto the corporate desktop. Interesting and funny, with lots of details about the place and the guys."
FP
The answer to all your problems
You're fired.
If you kiss Microsoft's ass, you'll contract Mono.
slashdot sucks
Your mom sucks..muy bien
Your article sounded like nothing but Nazi anti-Intel, Microsoft (Wintel) propaganda to me. I can see in a few years time when still nobody listens to you about upgrading their computers you start spouting stuff like 'Intel and Microsoft use mind control on your children' or 'Buying Intel and Microsoft Products will give you cancer'. Why do you hate these companies so much, is it that they posses powers you don't? Is it that they have such awe-inspiring control over our industry, is it that their products are significantly more expensive than their competitors, or is it you wish you were in their position and you had the ability to do what they do?
I am a person who wants freedom of speech, I want to be able to do whatever I like with my machine and my software.. But one thing I don't mind doing (which seems to be your major complaint) is paying for my software. The content should be provided on copy proof media, digitally signed and linked directly to your pc.. And what do you care if you've paid for the software? You shouldn't give a damn that's what. Basically you can't stand the fact they'll stop you from copy media and distributing it amongst your friends, or buying or borrowing from some scabby little shop or from another source. They employed the people that make these products, they pay all the R&D and other related costs, they pay their employees salaries so why shouldn't they charge you for the privilege of using it? And why shouldn't they protect their software from being copied and distributed..
And if you bother with the argument 'Linux is free' then you're worse than I originally thought. Have you ever tried installing any of the versions of Linux? It's complete shit and it looks fuck1ng awful. My brother can setup our family pc with new hardware and drivers, he can install and configure networking and dialup properties and he can do all this without speaking to anyone in technical support. This is all thanks to Microsoft. Put even myself in front of a Linux machine for just five minutes and I want to clobber the crap out of it with the 700 page 'SPAKKERS GUIDE TO LINUX' book. It is very 'normal user' unfriendly, and unless you have sandals, a beard and a degree in Kernel compiling you can't get any of the fucking hardware to work.. Oh and did I mention the GUI's in Linux look like something I crapped out after a curry and 7 beers last weekend.
XP is just great, I have it on my Dell Inspiron 8200 and it hasn't crashed or performed any weird operations ever. I play games, video edit, surf, and more or less anything else you can imagine.. I like the extra features in XP (Office and Windows) and I think it looks better than that 80's throwback Windows 98. Microsoft have got it right with this one and you've got it wrong. Instead of Wintel bashing why don't you get into Seal clubbing? At least the effects of your job would be more noticeable.
And once we're in there, we discover that not all Open Source developers are Dope Smoking Long Haired Linux Hippies...
Jim
i'm waiting for the flame-out!
"Oh, yes! Writing code and squashing bugs. I usually get here at 7, 7:30 a.m., and I learned not to turn on the lights, because there are probably people who have been here all night coding, who are asleep on the couch or the floor."
Trashdot Editors: "Quick, cmdr...post a bunch of new lame stories right away. That'll force our obvious lame troll "Florida voting" story down on the page so no one will reply anymore."
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." -William Blum
please do not attempt to rationalize with slashdot linux zealots..they do not comprehend reality, instead choosing to live in a dreamworld based more on socialism than capitalism.
thank you
I've often wondered why people bother with ximian. Are the packages it releases any better than the ones released by gnome itself?
.... And if you install it then your installation seems to be not quite compatible with a standard gnome install.
Sure, it has a pretty autoupdate feature, but then so does debian and mandrake, and it can be added to redhat,
Is it yet another linux company that is going to crash and burn once it runs out of VC? Just what is there to encourage people to pay them money?
Corrin (sounding really like a troll...)
Well, let's hope Ximian has a better year than the Red Sox ...
(Score:-1, Wrong)
Wow, this was a truly spectacular troll. Congrats.
I've often wondered why people bother with ximian. Are the packages it releases any better than the ones released by gnome itself?
.... And if you install it then your installation seems to be not quite compatible with a standard gnome install.
Sure, it has a pretty autoupdate feature, but then so does debian and mandrake, and it can be added to redhat,
I can see why people would install gnome2 over kde3, although I personally prefer kde, but why would you install ximian gnome over normal gnome?
Is it yet another linux company that is going to crash and burn once it runs out of VC? Just what is there to encourage people to pay them money?
Corrin (sounding really like a troll...)
1) Does it have to be aesthetically-pleasing to the eye?
Yes.
2) Does it have to be just like MS Windows?
No. Working with any computer's interface is a learned behavior. People learned about the _ [ ] X buttons at the top right of their programs because every computer they sat down at was running Windows. They soon realized that the X closed a window, the _ made it temporarily dissappear.
Many studies say that modern day UI must "look like a Microsoft product". Sorry to break it to you, Sun et al., but this simply isn't true.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
The EXACT SAME troll showed up in The Register's letter column; didn't get enough response there, binky?
Inside Ximain - answer this: where the hell are the GNOME 2 packages?! (and no, not the snapshots)
Face it, GNOME2 is just as ugly as ever, especially when compared to KDE. This article has about as much content as The National Inquirer. Also, this "closed" source exchange client just proves that deIcaza has sold out. Fortunately the people over at KDE are developing an opensource version. At least that fool "The Rasterman" isn't still out and about...
It all started with XP's Luna and OS X's Aqua, and now it has permiated the World of 'Nix as well....THE CANDY LOOK! (AKA Fischer Price GUI's)
The various desktops of the "in" crowd will be seen sporting brightly colored, translucent-looking smoothed, and rounded shaped widgets and
miscellaneous desktop adornments along with cycle-sucking resource-hogging graphics and animations.
This look seems to be most popular with younger persons (especially adolescents as it reminds them of sweets), obese persons (as it is reminiscent of food), and mentally challenged individuals (who are attracted to bright colors and smooth shapes).
The popular Desktop Environments such as GNOME2 and KDE3 offer themes that emulate this style of desktop for those who care for it.
Oddly enough, just as too much candy causes cavities, too much eye candy on the desktop seems to have a similar effect. On a system with 512MB RAM, KDE loaded with all the spiffies turned on and a candied theme chomps up a whopping 284MB RAM just on load up! As compared to a plain jane desktop theme and no extras which leveled out at about 96MB RAM.
Now we begin to see why the Minimum requirements for XP are so high, eh?
For those of you who are not stuck with having to use one of these interfaces, you could save yourself alot of resources by turning the happy
off.
Strom Thurmond; the dean of the US Senate...
the deadest fart on slashdot.
All night coding = bug-ridden and backdoor prone
Real programmers can estimante time costs, keep shedule and only program when they are well off and have maximum concentration.
I suppose Linux will never leave the hobbyist stage.
*sigh* reminds me of the place I worked last year before the layoffs hit. I'm miss working there. The work environment was just like this, the people were talented and smart, and the work was challenging and fun. Those were the days.
Finding God in a Dog
When holding the button, right click your mouse, the flash context menu will now pop-up. Due to the crappy nature of flash, the button will stay "pressed". Just left click when you "held" the button for a few weeks.
Did you notice the building Ximian is located in? Looks so .gov to me... I'll better run a 'find / -name "gnome.nsa"' fast
42 + 1 = 42
He got one from you, donkey puncher.
an evil troll. You are so cool! Could I be your friend?
n/t
Well the project sounds ambitious and all... but I tend to gauge the success of a company such as this by how cool their logo is. I think these guys are going to have a great future. Anybody else as shallow as me?
"it hasn't crashed or performed any weird operations ever"
This post has a Pinocchio rating of 12 inches.
Whatever you do, DONT install ximian gnome on debian. I installed Ximian 1.4 on my debian box and it took a long time before I could get everything working properly again.
Doesn't that cost money?
So, would anyone care to explain how this post garners -1 Flamebait, but the parent is 3 Informative?
Anyone?
Bunch of AC hataz!
See. Anything that is based on "reality" is called a "troll" by the /. faithful and modded out of existence, so they don't have to confront these "facts". You are obviously new here :)
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
If you only manage one computer, and you like to spend your time installing and updating software, then you probably don't really need to pay for Ximian. But it is great if you've got other things to do then worrying about keeping a mess of workstations updated.
However, if you like a company's product you should buy it. By purchasing from Ximian we are helping to support Gnome development. It is just self-interest. Gnome is good for us, so we pay for Gnome.
Did anyone else find the writer's fawning, adjective-heavy style irritating, even for a Slashdot article?
From the article and other statements they've made, they are really going after corporate desktops with their for-sale products. There's really no reason for an individual user to actually buy the CD since it can be downloaded. If I remember correctly, the whole thing is only 80Mb or so (it installs to around 200Mb), so it's possible even with a modem connection.
Corporate users who decide to adopt Linux and GNOME for their desktops may indeed decide to buy it, however. If Ximian can really provide a consistent and reliable set of applications, easy updates, and support, then corporations may perceive it as a viable alternative to the endless Microsoft license cycle. If they feel they will get timely support, painless updates, and good consistency, then they will be willing to pay for it; it will still cost them a bundle less than MS.
Although paying for free software sounds like an oxymoron, corporations are willing to do it if they perceive it buys them consistency and support.
[Ximian employee, but I can't find my login/pass ATM.]
:) So, yeah... wish we had enough cash to have the whole building. No serious danger of us buying out the Best Buy, the movie theater, or Blue Cross of Massachusetts yet.
It's an old Sears building, and actually on the National Register of Historic Places. It's also a bit misleading- we've got one quarter of one floor of the place, not the whole damn thing. The picture used in the article manages to crop out that part of the building, even.
When die-hard linux developers defect to the dark side, it's a sign that that people are seeing through the hoax that linux is technically stable and robust when in fact, the vm is unstable under load, necessitating a complete rewrite, and the fs loses fs integrity on crashes, necessitating ext3fs. All along, linux has been a piece of junk. The truth is out there.
wow, open-source FUD. Imagine that. There are many, many, many, many people who will tell you that windows 2000 and XP don't crash any more than linux does. quit licking other people's balls and tend to your own or go back to moscow-stock you filthy communist hippie.
yeah right, the reality is that capitalism is evil. everything should be free, and linux will see to that. NO ONE SHOULD PAY FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN SUPPORT. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. that's what those fucking hippies want, to give away their cash-offerings and become tech-support drones. GO OPEN SOURCE, GO! I think we should create a time-machine and throw Richard Stallman back in the fucking 60's.
I admire the hard work put into Evolution. I was in the process of moving all my contacts over into their PIM. Until... I had a large message to send out and the program was straining under the weight of not having , instead of ; between addresses in an e-mail to ~40 people. These folks were not on a regular distribution list and probably never will be. It made sense to send the message that way. It took minutes for the program to move through through the addresses so I could add another.
It's slick... I'll use it some day but it didn't impress this time around. I'll try it again in about 6 months.
Are you prepared to die for your rights and freedom?
Are you prepared to kill?
September 11th marks a turning point in history. The day the islamic world showed its true face. The terror of that fateful day need not be recalled here, for there are far worthier media outlets that can stage a fitting tribute to the fallen. But the repercussions of this event have been felt for the past 365 days.
Notice how you don't feel as secure as you did in employment. Notice how suddenly your salary doesn't stretch as far as it used to? Notice the lump tightening in your gut every time you see an islamic walking freely.
Now ask yourself? Have you let the terrorists win?
They are laughing at us. The whole islamic world is laughing at us. They will be in our streets tomorrow, cheering and celebrating the act of mass murder. Why are they permitted to support acts of barbarism?
Why? Because we live in a Free Country. Yet, paradoxically, it is our freedom which offends the islamic the most. They know fine well that in their barbaric despotisms they would not be permitted ANY means of protest against the goverment. Yet, not only are they free to protest, to burn our flag, but they are nigh on ENCOURAGED to do so by the liberal media.
Switch on your television set tomorrow. You'll see them. The liberals. Plump and fat with the rich pickings of their well-fed middle class white heritage, they shall be bleating that somehow, it's all America's fault. That America is a nation forged from genocide, that the numbers of children killed in Iraq and Afghanistan far outweigh the tiny little statistic of the World Trade Centre murders. Making us feel guilty for the privledge of being noble-hearted Americans. Denying our nation the opportunity to mourn.
We face a twin pronged attack. The liberal media, forever assaulting the values we hold dear, and the islamic menace. A permanent threat that has been allowed to continue far too long.
Understand that for an islamic, the idea that a non-islamic should be permitted to live in peace is HERESY. Like any good brain-washing cult, islamics are indoctrinated from birth and are forced to remember every verse in their "Terrorist's Handbook", the Koran. Without recourse to other treatises on morality, is it any wonder that islamics have degenerated to the point of raw animal savagery?
As long as islamics are tolerated in decent society, there will always be terrorism. They want to see this 'decent society' destroyed from within. Notice how, although islamic culture is supposed to be a 'paradise', these animals cannot WAIT to get out of their own countries and into Western civilization.
Why is this? Surely, it is a core belief of islam that a muslim should offer shelter to their fellow muslim. So, why is Europe infested with the black cancer of 'asylum seekers'? The answer is simple. Asylum seekers are an invasion force. Entering decent countries and tearing them apart from within. Demanding to be treated with more privledge than the native population. Clogging up government services and squandering taxpayers money without offering anything back to the society they force to become their home. Other than an increase in crime rates, of course.
Surely a western government is in place "For the people"? Ask ANY European Citizen whether they want asylum resettlement centres in their towns, and you'll recieve a unanimous "Non". So why is THIS invasion tolerated?
Socialism! Successive socialist goverments in Europe have allowed the islamic cancer to spread unchecked. This is why, even though islam is a religion, and not a skin colour, every muslim knows how to cry "racist" whenever they are asked to behave like a human being.
For a 'just' and 'tolerant' religion, it is shocking to see how quickly islamic settlement areas degenerate into high crime zones, where the rest of society; be they white, chinese, hindu, sikh, whatever; fears to walk. There are areas of all our inner cities which operate under strict Sharia law in all but name. Gangs of muslim youths roam freely, each one of them a mini Bin Laden.
This is the army which we must face. Together, not as whites, or purebreed aryans, or any of that bullshit, but as AMERICANS, we must stand together. For even the most liberal of human beings knows, in their heart, that islam poses a threat to the very foundation of our existance.
We have guns. We need to use them before further liberalism pries them from our grasps. Because we know that THEY have guns as well. And they are just waiting for the call from their Terrorist Training Camps (mosques) to begin the holy jihad. And it will be the blood of our families, our beloved ones, that will be spilled if we don't act. We must act soon and decisively. Entering the muslim-held areas en masse and eliminating their foul subhuman breed for good. For once our country is purged, and no more islamics are permitted entry, we know we shall be steadfast on the road to security.
The muslim's heart craves war, and on September 11th 2001 they chose to bring the battle onto the streets of America.
September 11th 2002 shall be the day we fight back. Our new Independance Day.
I ask you now, if any word of this diatribe strikes a chord in your heart, PLEASE post it on. Usenet. Online forums. Wherever. Because, despite decades of liberal propaganda, you know that every word said is forged from the cold, harsh flame of truth.
(Well, it was, wasn't it?)
I wonder where this guy experienced Brazil like that. No plumbing or air ductwork in sight from where i stand, in Brazil.
I also got the impression that the purpose of Red Carpet was more to-do with providing Ximian with some kind of business model, than actually providing useful functionality to the end-user - otherwise why not just build it around apt-get and give us all some flexibility?
In the end, I didn't really see any solid advantage to going with Ximian Gnome (although I do like Evolution), and it had the disadvantage of making my rpm dependency tree more complicated than it needs to be.
Now if they'll just port Ximian Connector to OS X - imagine how many Windoze machines could be replaced in corporate. This is who Apple should be working with.
unfortunately written in german language but it's worth reading it Please Read This. looks like gnome is too much under control of sun, redhat and ximian. their developers are nothing else than the puppets of these companies.
i like the idea that the GNOME HIG (human interface guides) will soon affect KDE too. specially crap like the button re-ordering in gnome 2 which still disgusts me. luckely i am still using gnome 1 and hopefully will continue using it for the next couple of years. hey the xfree server is moving towards gnome now. it embedds 'gnome-xml, pkgconfig, fontconfig, xcoursor, xft2' ... soon in your xfree 4.3 :)
:)
gnome-xml, pkgconfig == gnome people
fontconfig, xcoursor, xft2 == keith packard who's beloved desktop is gnome
what you don't belive me ? grab the CVS of it.
soon the kde people need to follow our ass
the reason why evolution is not yet ported to gnome 2 is because ximian is planning to release the gnome 2 port of evolution using 'mono' and 'c#'.
something i don't get is:
'bringing gnome to the business desktop users'
- but gnome 2 totally sucks. even hardcore gnome users refuse to use it. read all the flames and rants about gnome 2 on all kind of news pages and mailinglists.
'we have our super evolution thingy'
- probably the only application that they managed to write. probably they are never able to write such a piece of software again (not to mention all the zillion bugs it has) (see bugzilla)
'we have people working on openoffice'
- which is in no way gnome related. looks like ximian is trying to tie 2 different things together. openoffice has it's own framework, api and abi which is in no way gnome related.
When did they open Best Buy?
You mean you don't have to go the whole way over to Cambridge to get stuff now?
From a user-interface standpoint, we all pretty much drive the same car -- steering wheel, brake pedal, gas, turn signals. In fact, when designers try to make cars too cute -- the used Camry I just bought has turn-signal style stalks sprouting out every which way from the steering column -- I get my wife operating the wipers every time she wants to put the car in gear, even though she once drove a Firebird with the gear selector on the console instead of on the tree like our old Taurus and Chrysler. And when designers try and enhance things -- like the VW/Audi change in gas and brake pedal placement to get quicker brake reaction time -- you end up with geezers making new doors in the garage and turning around and suing for "stuck accelerator syndrome."
Having worked above Ximian in the same building for the summer i know the space well. The building is quite nice. I believe Ximian has the 3rd floor in the West Wing although I have not been there.
The building used to be a Sears warehouse and then was not used and in ill repair for many years. Now it is reopened as nice offices. It has twin large seven story Atriums in the center of both wings which allow some nice natural light into offices that would otherwise be without. More pictures of the building are here
I've used Red Carpet extensively on both a Mandrake 8 and Red Hat 7.2 box and have never had any such problems.
Red Carpet "just works", every time.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
That's a predictable but wrong answer, and it shows the same blinders that people have when it comes to Windows. Professional cars (trucks, racecars, tanks, etc.) are very different from consumer cars. There is likewise no reason why software for professionals should look anything like consumer software. Asserting that it should is the same idiotic advertising machinery that sells cheap plastic thingies as "professional tools" to consumers who are eager to buy "the real thing".
And even among consumer cars there is enormous variation: other than the steering wheel and two pedals, all the other user interface elements can be found almost anywhere within reach, in almost any arrangement.
Now i can see why all people say that slashdot sucks nowadays ...
Enlightenment is kind of nice, and fairly innovative. And even usable if you turn off some of the animations. I especially like being able to drag desktops over other desktops partially, while working on both.
It's too bad they threw out the code and started v17 from scratch 2 years ago, and are still "at least 2 years away" from having another release. But v16 is still pretty good.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Comment removed based on user account deletion
just curious?
> Ximian GNOME has a number of advantages over the standard desktop GNOME that comes with your distro.
;-)
.deb packages totally reduce one of Debian's main advantages over other distro's.
;-)
c id=4231 772
Disclaimer: Ximian has a number of nice touches to GNOME that I really like. Standard GNOME2 kicks ass -- I'm using RH 8.0 beta -- so I'm anxious to see what you guys have done. I have some guesses as to what you've done to "enhance" GNOME2. I'll spare the possibility of being wrong by not stating my hunch.
The above is unnecessary fluff to protect against newbie moderators who mod tough questions as "troll". Now, on to my question:
Why the heck can't you guys work out your dependency conflicts with Debian???
I *know* you guys love Debian, and a lot of your coders use Debian, so this conflict I do not understand.
For those not running Debian, the problem is this: install Ximian on a Debian box, and you get circular dependency conflicts... making you feel like you have a RedHat box full of rpm's off Freshmeat. Debian puts a lot of work into their package management, and your
Your packages cause the APT database to think GNOME-related stuff is not installed, or is OLDER than Debian's (sometimes a mix of older AND newer). It's a messy problem.
The problem is magnified on Debian far worse than Red Hat (which also has the same problem), because it's easier to network-update Debian. When I ran Debian, I'd apt-get a couple times a day. I was an apt junkie
OH, and the OTHER large problem with Ximian GNOME is it seems you install your own menu system. This plain STINKS when you have large numbers of GNOME apps installed... those shortcuts are GONE, unless you enable multiple GNOME menus off the "foot button". Grrr.
-Scott
BTW, this sentiment was first touched upon in the URL below. Moderators, please consider that post.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=39651&
no no no, it's: "If you ever fall off the Sears Tower, just go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will try to catch you because, hey, free dummy." ;^)
ok, mod me down now - jack handy haters!
It's not open yet, but they're working on it. We're guessing it'll open just in time to drive us broke for Christmas.
I hope whoever is responsible for that gets punished in meta-moderation (but I won't hold my breath).