Slashdot Mirror
Apple Bundles InDesign With Power Macs
analog_line writes "Apple is firing a shot across the bow of Quark with a new promotion bundling Adobe InDesign 2.0 with every new PowerMac G4 (that is, the towers). News.com has a story on this as well. I say go Apple. Hopefully this will either get Quark to release their Mac OS X version of XPress or start the process of killing them off once and for all." I really liked QuarkXPress a lot when I used it extensively back in the version 3 days. It'd be a shame if it they lose out on Apple's new platform. But as a capitalist, I say, let the best product win!
As a capitalist, I say destroy all monopolies.
PATCRP.
fp!
But as a capitalist, I say, let the best product win!
Then why do you buy Macs?
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
But as a capitalist, I say, let the best product win!
But if Apple bundles the product wouldn't that give a distinct advantage to Adobe without regards to whether they have a better product? This to me is just Apple's way of slapping Quark's wrist and rewarding Adobe, who aside from Microsoft is Apple's biggest software producer.
"But as a capitalist, I say, let the best product win!" Holy cow!! Someone actually believes in capitalism around here. Sweet!
Them new machines got "power holes" now...
Damn, it's about time someone stepped up and did something about Quark. Almost embarrasing the way people(read: print services) have hung on to that outmoded relic.
This is nothing but good news.
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
fp
(That's a DTP joke, for those of you in the back)
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
shouldn't it be: as a capitalist, I say, let the product with the best advertising win.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=39804&cid=4247 566
I know that this is off topic, but how the hell do I block stories on Apple? I have the box marked in my preferences, but still all these Apple stories come up. Nothing against them, I just don't care. I don't like Apple, I don't like OSX, but I don't care that others do. Please don't take this as a flame. What am I doing wrong with my preferences?? Thanks.
I love competition. Look at graphics cards: ATI has just overtaken nVidia, who overtook 3dfx, who overtook Matrox, who overtook ATI ... The big winner is the citizen with her wallet, getting an order of magnitude performance increase, for similar cost, every couple years.
I started doing desktop publishing with PageMaker 4, which was right before Quark started to really kick their butts in PC-land. Adobe bought PageMaker from Aldus, who'd invested a lot of effort in working with designers and creating a great product. Adobe got complacent and sat on their ass, with the result that Quark crossed platforms and ate their lunch. Now they're coming back with InDesign, which has some great features and usability enhancements that Quark can't touch (OS X support aside).
Another thing helping Adobe is their frankly brilliant positioning of PDF. The network effect of PDF is huge - many print shops are taking files in PDF for complex jobs, and our local paper (The Oregonian - not high class, but not little) asks for ads in PDF. PS is still the standard, but PDF is a nice intermediary. Adobe's turning it into the XML of page layout and design.
Random thought: Artistic and design tools is the one of the hardest areas for OSS to compete, because these programs (like Photoshop, Illustrator, Final Cut, etc.) are all about interface and polish. I'm not saying that OSS can't do this, just that it takes a strong vision and committed management to pull off this type of software.
Anyone want to lay odds on Adobe porting it's suite to Linux? OS X support could pull that argument in either direction.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
I've been a Quark loyalist for years, and almost took a job with them last year. I'm so glad I didn't, because since then: 1) They've moved most of their programming to India. 2) They've fired some of their sales reps around Chicagoland. 3) One of their big guns as far as keeping corporate customers happy has left Quark and started a company that consults businesses migrate from QuarkXPress to InDesign. I'm losing faith in Quark by the minute. Version 5 was a complete waste of time. Luckily, 50 percent of my job consists of simply trying to keep QuarkXPress running on 60 machines without crashing. Another 30 percent is spent restoring jobs from backup that got corrupted when QuarkXPress crashed, and the last 20 percent is figuring out how our in-house asset management system can be modified to work with InDesign instead of QuarkXPress...
Oh, let the death be slow, messy and painful. Let it drag on at least as many months as that dog cost me in lost productivity due to crashes, conversions, etc. The more you learn about the software the more friggin screwed up it seems. Bad design, bad implementation, bad interfaces, bad support, bad roadmap. Bad, bad, bad.
illegitimii non ingravare
Seriously. What's up with the zealot moderation? Modding down anything that doesn't proclaim Steve Jobs as the son of God, and the Mac as the UberComputer won't exactly sway anyone's opinion. As Hegel wrote, history is a dialectic process. Only through the conflict of contrary ideas is true progress, and in that, history itself, made.
But if Apple bundles the product wouldn't that give a distinct advantage to Adobe
This isn't "bundling" in the sense that Apple does with iTunes or M$ does with IE. It's a temporary sales promotion. You need to send in a coupon in the mail and wait two months for the free copy to be sent to you; this isn't something you can exploit to make a deadline or market window.
Those who complain about affect & effect on
Until you get your blinders removed, just change your slashdot bookmark to www.arstechnica.com.
"Please don't take this as a flame," it's just that you're posting in the wrong section of Slashdot if you expect anyone to care.
Have a great day, Sparky.
The Mac is really a niche market - graphic design. If there are no apps to support the designer, Apple goes kaput.
Most (meaning over 90%) publishing houses use Macs and Quark, exclusively, keeping InDesign around just for experimentation and compatability. If someone sumbits a job in Page Maker, they will get the job returned. Apple knows this, and since Quark really has made little public indication of an X-native XPress in the future (let alone before January 2003 -- when all new Macs will only boot in to X), Apple's main consumer base is at risk. As for right now, migrating all users to InDesign (which can read XPress documents, sort-of) is the best solution for Apple. At least until Apple decides to make that market its own and release iPublish or some other such rubbish.
"Jesus saves, but everyone else in a 10 foot radius takes full damage from the fireball."
Ironically, it was Apple that pushed QuarkXpress in the first place. When Aldus decided to port PageMaker to the PC, Apple got annoyed at them, and because the then-new QuarkXpress was Mac-only, they threw their considerable marketing weight behind it.
Perhaps if Quark had been a cross-platform developer, they might have been more nimble about porting to OS X.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
quark xpress is available for both windows and mac.
I don't see how this will help companies adopt os x. these companies use quark because it is what they are used to. they are just going to switch because apple bundles it with the machine? i imagine until there is an os x version of quark, companies will simply ignore os x. and then perhaps even after it is available they will still ignore it, since alot of what the print world uses are applescripts that just won't work in os x because features are different/missing.
I always find it funny to hear someone (usualy radical feminists) declare that the usage of he or she to describe an object is sexist. Espesialy when you consider that most words which are refered to as she/her are usualy items which are to command the upmost respect (i.e. the flag, the nation, a boat, a very nice car, a beautiful sculpture etc etc etc). How is asociating the female gender with respect and reverence sexist?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Considering that you can get a new PC from Dell, which is faster than any mac AND a retail copy of InDesign for less than the cost of a new G4.
Apple can KMA.
Poof! G'bye InDesign!
I am a believer of momentum and curves.
You have to understand here that Quark still has a huge share of the prepress market. Most print houses still prefer Quark files and although InDesign has some very nice features, it has failed to make a dent in the marketplace.
This is just the shot-in-the-arm InDesign needs to get enough acceptance so Quark and InDesign can compete fairly on features. And bundling (okay, not technically bundling) a $700 piece of software makes a $1699 PowerMac look more like $999. That's great for Apple. I hope they sell a bundle.
Look at those dirty rat bastards, Microsoft, bundling Internet Explorer in with the OS for free.
It is no wonder that Netscape couldn't compete.
Look at those dirty rat bastards, Apple, bundling InDesign with Powermacs for free.
It is no wonder that Quark couldn't compete.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
The only reason that Quark is still considered the industry standard is because Adobe biffed InDesign's introduction and 1.0 release so badly.
I've hated Quark ever since they decided to ship XPress 4.0 on 1 floppy disk (with the 400K installer app) and 1 CD for years...thus making it impossible for new PowerMac owners (without floppy drives) to install without having to do backflips through Quark's flaming hoops of DOOM. Not only that, but it's extremely temperamental, and breaks all the time.
I hope this is the last nail in Quark's coffin. Industry standards are only a hinderance when they stagnate in badly managed software, archaic code, and gold-plated pricing.
-----
"Cogito Eggo Sum: I think, therefore, waffle."
Accept something for free if it is clear that the giver has no commercial interest in giving it to you or if the relationship is such that the giver can't exercise control over you or the product later on. Otherwise, be very suspicious and try to avoid the "gift" if you can.
Quark Xpress died a long time ago. Quark got fat and lazy off of it's market share and forgot to take care of it's customers. Treated customers like shit, charged WAAAAY to much for it's product and offered edu discounts too late in the game. Customer service was abysmal always. And they failed to innovate and evolve with the industry.
Siayonara Quark. We won't miss you cuz you've already been dead for years now.
Actually Quark is Focusing on the Windows market. Which is the reason for the delay in an OSX version.
First, Apple is placing a coupon in the box. They are not placing the application. Send the coupon to Adobe and they'll send you the software.
Second, Apple is not claiming that InDesign is "part of the operating system". Apple is not forcing it's users to use InDesign. Apple is not pressuring VARs to not support Quark Xpress. Apple is providing a coupon, just like a Gateway or a Dell might do.
Where Apple can "get away with it" is that they are that they build it all--a Macintosh is a complete product designed and built by Apple Computer (or under contract to Apple Computer). Microsoft is a component supplier to the PC industry.
That, sir, is why you are a Troll.
InDesign is so OS X.2, while Quark is soooooo WIndows 3.1. I'm a graphic artist of more years than I'd like to count, first working with traditional tools and then with every Mac since the original. Started in desktop with a beta of Pagemaker, but used Quark almost exclusively, daily since the second version of it. Since InDesign went native, I've been a switcher, keeping a copy of Quark 4.1 in classic for quick updates to projects not worth porting over. I imagine that's what many of my breathern will do. Quark is dead by suicide. 5.0 is an insult. The company has always been a one-trick pony. Mind you, I made my living using it many years and was thankful during the early years, but Quark has spent the last how many years with no real updates to its product, and shown an active disinterest in OS X. But you know, they'd still get away with it if InDesign wasn't such a great product. It takes a transition time to get used to it, but when you bring yourself to understand that a layout program can work intuitively, without "quirks" (pun intended) you will never go back.
Not only is this a promo for InDesign, but the obvious reverse is also true. This will help Apple sell G4s in a difficult economy. A $699 value with a new G4 is quite an incentive if you've been thinking about getting a new machine. Given that many designers still don't have InDesign this might be just the push to get both - InDesign AND a new G4.
As someone who has walked into the Layout/ Design world over the last few years... I have become a major fan of Adobe Pagemaker. Yes, yes, I know... Sigh, moan, and wonder what is wrong with me. Wait... just sit down and read. :-)
What program has been here for years, working better and better with every upgrade? It's not Quark or InDesign; I use all and I know the major bugs with all of them. I do know in the world of Prepress, Pagemaker is THE underdog and unloved by most of my fellow prepressers. But, I still have hope for the old giant, PAGEMAKER. Take a look at the kind old Pagemaker and GIVE it a hug!!! InDesign 2.0, Quark 5.0... You have a long way to go to reach the godlike role of Pagemaker... It is your DADDY and you will like it!!!
One Rebel with a cause!!! PAGEMAKER FOR EVERY PREPRESS AND PREWEB HOUSE!!!!!
LOVE
Bad Andy
(AKA) Pagemakerguy!
an absolutely miserable product. I absolutely loathe it. It's 2002, and I have only 1 "undo" in a design program? Give me a friggin break. And all placed EPS files look like crap in Quark, it makes bass-ackwards PDF's, and type looks terrible on screen.
oh...and for $900, I can't set type outside the margin? It only analyzes 1 line at a time for justfied type? Puh-lease people. InDesign is a God-send to those of us who have suffered with Quark for too many years. I say let Quark burn slowly...VERY slowly. Good riddence.
you have to have the good sense to reward development efforts, or you will soon have none. quark needs a spanking of the worst kind!
the software is of minor consequence. i can learn new technologies and applications rather quickly, but integrating entire industries takes time. imagine thousands of 500 pages books designed in quark, and imagine how much money was required to design and produce them. so you have half a billion dollars in developmnent, and you are on one publisher. now multiply by five, and you have covered about two-thirds of the publishing sector my business works within. these titles need to be reprinted, modified, updated... when decisions to publish a program revolve around many costs, adding another couple $10k's can squash a project. the printers and separators we work with are very technologically savy, but the process is the point. does intel simply switch fabrication processes? and, why not?
I switched to InDesign for new projects almost the momment it came out. I only kept Quark around for old projects that needed reprinting or tweeking. There were problems with InDesign 1.0, but since 1.5 it has been great, and 2.0 is a dream.
I was looking for any out from Quark. The company has treated customers horribly for a long time. This includes bad tech support, crazy licensing schemes (including overpriced licenses), and a crusty product that was prone to crash a lot and not do what they said it would do.
Pagemaker was not updated in quite some time precisely because Adobe was working on InDesign. They built it from the ground up so that every piece of it is modular and easily updated. It has lots of great features and a great interface. I think the pricing structure is very straightforward, and Adobe has made many different upgrade paths available (a long time offering it for $99 to any Photoshop user).
I believe Apple is only playing favorites right now because Quark is growing more and more behind. If they don't start getting people to try out InDesign (and by using it realize how much better it is), if Quark doesn't deliver, they are screwed.
But Quark brought this on themselves long ago.
That's the end of my rant.
-trout
You won't be able to get it for free next year. Just through this year. Better get to buying. Personally I've got a G4 Tower with os 9 & 10.2 (i'm in 9 right now, having waited on migrating from 10.1.5 to 10.2) and I am dying to get a dual 1.25 with DDR. However, I am going to wait at least one to two years in hopes of a G5.
Come on IBM don't let me down (wow, when I was a kid Apple and IBM were sworn enemies, now IBM is making PPC Chips, times they are a changin').
Maybe you will all say I am a whining boy, but I always wonder why the nice deals are not available here in Europe. I am planning to buy a new G4 system for home use and I would just love it to have a copy of InDesign for free with it. But no luck, as this promo is not available over here. Only the LCD-monitor promo is running here now. When I asked Apple staff about it at Apple Expo Paris last week, they didn't even know about the promo. If Apple or Adobe is reading this: please make it a globally available promo! Thanks in advance.
Yup, it's true! Pleasant surprise to me, didn't expect a free mail-in-rebate for Adobe In Design. I expected the flat panel rebate but not the Adobe In Design.
I will mail it in and I will receive Adobe In Design for free.
I've not run Quark or In Design before but having a real page layout tool will come in handy!
I recently bought Corel Draw Suite 11 for several reasons. 1. I've never used Adobe Photoshop (the Gimp doesn't count). 2. It came with a Windows install as well as a Mac install in the box. 3. It was priced cheaper than Photoshop & Illustrator. 4. I know how to use it already! 5. I am not a professional graphic artist so I see little value in buying and learning Photoshop and Illustrator. I am sure they are superior in many ways but I would probably never learn enough about them to take advantage. - I do know that it doesn't do page layout very well. At least not for large documents. You can do quite a bit with the Corel Suite but it has it's limitations.
Looking forward to In Design's arrival.
Apple laptops are effectively unusable for unix users.
I am a long-time Unix user. That means I need to have the Ctrl key to the left of the A key. This is a genuine need , not merely a want; it is based upon ergonomics. The Ctrl key is heavily used in unix, and it must be easily accessable. It cannot be off in the lower left corner of the keyboard where it is difficult to get at, and where it distorts the position of your left hand such that you can't easily type other keys while holding the Ctrl key down.
Apple desktop keyboards are now all USB. They are all OK. The CapsLock key can be re-mapped into a Ctrl key.
Unfortunately, even in this modern age, all Apple laptops have built-in ADB keyboards. The ADB keyboard is broken-by-design. It is, in general, not possible to remap the CapsLock key into a Ctrl key.
There are some exceptions, but they are horrible kludges. They are horrible kludges because the original design of the ADB keyboard was a horrible kludge. The correct solution would be for Apple to re-design their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards. This hasn't happened yet. If you run Linux, use Debian's solution. For Mac OS X users, uControl works. There are no solutions (that I know of) for either NetBSD or OpenBSD. Please note once again that the "solutions" above are in fact kludges, because of the original bad design of the ADB keyboard.
Apple is (currently) ignoring Unix users! This is not merely speculation on my part. In an on-going email exchange I am having with an Apple employee (whom I won't name) in their marketing department, the Apple marketing person directly stated to me that Apple was catering to their historic Mac customers, and is purposely ignoring the Unix market. He also claimed that Apple would soon start paying more attention to the Unix market. I won't hold my breath. Apple has been ignoring Unix users for more than 10 years. I expect that trend to continue. (Also note that my Apple contact indicated that Macs would never ship with a 3-button mouse, even though Apple intended to port almost all X-window software and deliver it either on a CD/DVD or installed directly on each Mac's hard drive. How Unix friendly is a 1-button mouse with X programs that often require 3 buttons?)
Apple has now lost two opportunities to sell me hardware. I really wanted an Apple laptop for their superior battery life, and for the PowerPC with Altivec CPU. (The Altivec is vastly superior to the x86 line for DSP.) Because I can't live with the broken-by-design built-in ADB keyboard in all Apple laptops, Sony and IBM sold me laptops instead. If Apple fixes this problem, they will sell me a PowerBook next year; if they don't, I'll still be running OpenBSD on x86 hardware, and wishing I could use a Mac.