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Automakers to Make Diagnostic Codes Available
Rubbersoul writes "As reported on /. a few months ago independent auto repair shops are a bit tense about not having access to car computer diagnostic codes. Well it seems that now the auto makers will share these codes after all. According to an article at CNN the codes will be available to all professional mechanics as well as amateurs working out of their garage at home. Good to see the auto makers came around on this one, even if it did take Congress to help a bit."
This is a pretty big deal since it's pretty tough to figure out what's going on on computer controlled engines otherwise.
This is a bigger deal because it means that people publishing the codes will no longer face the prospect of being sued for posting it and means that, in this case at least, the auto makers (with pressure from congress) decided that public good out weighed copyright law.
Bugs Bunny was right.
Under the agreement signed by the Automotive Service Association, the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers and the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, the automakers agree to make the service information available on the Internet by Aug. 31 at a "reasonable price."
Which means that private mechanics will charge more to analyze the codes since they have to pay a "reasonable price" which negates:
Some automakers felt more comfortable giving the information to their dealerships, which must keep the data confidential under franchise contracts. That often meant higher costs to consumers, since dealer labor rates tend to run $10 to $20 per hour higher than independent shops, according to AAA.
Unless, of course, someone creates something like carwarez.com
Live web cams
This means a number of major changes in the industry including the right for independent motor dealers to buy directly from manufacturers (as franchise dealers do now), and for them to have the right to the information required to service these vehicles at a fair price.
Some more info on this is available here.
Now when my wife makes me go fix the car I'll actually know whats not working, instead of randomly hitting parts with a wrench until a part breaks.
There has been a recent trend in mom'n'pop (well just pop usually) mechanic stores fading away because of big companies sucking up all the businness. Ever seen those commercials that compare Joe Blow mechanic to a big time Jiffy Lube or NTB buff? Notice how the mechanic is portrayed as a greasy hungover hobo, and the friendly neighborhood WalMart-of-cars mechanic is clean cut, muscular, educated, and reviewing what appears to be a concise list of repairs with the client. I'm not against corporations coming to town on a political level, but it stinks to drive out in the country and seeing mom'n'pop stores taken over. And with all of the computer chips and advanced parts requiring really expensive tools to fix, it's nice to see something to go against that trend and empower the small guys again ;)
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
What is new about this? The OBD and OBD II standards have been around for a long time... you can go out and buy a tool that will interface with your car and show you the codes... You can even get a cable that lets you hookup a laptop the sensor port.
The OBD-II Homepage
OBD-II Codes
"We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it" -- Winston Churchill
These are Diag Codes not Source Code. These will not give you information to put Linux on your car. They give information like Code 2453 Means Sencor 4 is malfunctioning. So opening the code help the machanics not the hacker. They are not saying how the Onboad computer is working just giving you the information on what is wrong. It is like a help book for windows error messages. With know all the window error message numbers it helps you possible fix the problem with the Os but not nessarly hack the OS.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Diagnostic codes are read only. They will not be releasing any modification codes I am willing to bet.
The diagnostic codes are designed to help mechanics troubleshoot problems on automobiles. With the level of sophistication used in modern cars, it is hard to diagnose the cause of the most common of problems by conventional means. For instance, let's say your car is using way too much gas. Perhaps your Air Temperature Sensor is on the fritz, and is telling the ECM that it is 20 below zero. The computer will compensate by richening the air/fuel mixture, and the results will include fouled out spark plugs, black exhaust smoke, etc. 25 years ago, that meant "the carbeurator is floodin'". Now it means a sensor needs changing. The ECM codes help you figure out which one.
From the article The fault or diagnostic codes, which appear on a handheld computer that the mechanic attaches to the vehicle to designate the source of trouble...
:-) Planning on hooking up a decoder to an old Grid PalmPad and using one of the programs on SourceForge to continuously display the data and log it to the network I am adding to my '96 Jeep Cherokee.
This is describing the OBD-II (onboard diagnostics) codes. OBD-II is required on all new vehicles sold in the US since 1996. The protocol is open, but manufacturers would add additional information that they did not disclose to outsiders. Throttle position, fuel flow, intake temp, etc were all easy to decode but other codes were proprietary.
And, yes, I am one of the people interested in this
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
As someone who works in the industry on the engineering side I am very familiar with their "codes."
The codes will be USELESS to a mechanic. A mechanic needs a "TOOL." A mechanic is not a programmer or engineer. He will still pay $300 for the tool to read the codes. he will still pay $100 per 'module' for each car's codes he wants to read.
He can do that now. So the hope is that more tools will be developed and that will bring the cost of the tools down.
Don't confuse this with any ability to modify anything. These will be read only idiot codes like "o2 is out of range" or "Low Voltage."
It still takes a good mechanic to find the problem and often, VERY DAMN OFTEN, the codes are simply misleading the mechanic when his nose and ears have already given him the answer.
Diagnostic trouble Code so called DTC are avil online for long time. check out http://www.autotap.com for detail on their software and OBDII codes. Autotap is not just for Trouble Codes, you can use it to monitor 1000's of parameters in Real time!! from how much air/fuel your car consuming, how far you have your throttle down, what gear are you in, what's your temptures etc etc.
:)
I have all the Codes for my Grand Prix GTP.
Yes A lot of people mod their cars, reprogramming the PCM or ECU can give you more HP and remove speed limiter etc.
I'm one of those guy who tweak on the cars, i'll be setting DTC's left and right, i just use autotap and look up the code and do the necessary correction to fix the problem.
Sometime friend who have Service Engine Soon light on their late model car I tap in and check out the code (Which cost $75 at the shop) so we'll get idea on the problem with the car before we take it to the shop.
There are palm size code readers and scan tools also.
Look for multiline, serial gauges that coming out in a few month that let you monitor various parameters of your OBD II car and they're reprogrammable too with serial interface.
Am i the only one who though for about .8 seconds that the article was about GNU Automake?
I best cut down on the wine I think...
On Board Diagnostics is a tool. You can read the codes with the tool.
What the codes mean is the point.
Yes, and that's fine for people doing trouble shooting and tune-ups... but it also allows street racers and other performance minded folks to pump up their air-fuel mixtures and screw up emission controls. With the wrong settings, it's also conceivable if someone doesn't know what they are doing to cause engine fires with all the associated hollywood-type explosions.
That has nothing to do with this. You know the Check Engine light that people never have checked out? Thats the car's internal diagnostic system giving you a heads up that something's fscked up.
Believe it or not, that actually has a good bearing on if something is wrong with your car. People who fix their cars at home (or the car tuner) actually likes to look up what caused that Orange Light of Death, but from most car companies (most being the American ones) the code it displays is kept secret from small garages or individuals.
This allows the do-it-yourselfer or the entrepreneur garage to repair their vehicle with the aid of the vehicle. Score one for the little guys.
Never mind.
Me Too! Once I bought the $60 factory published repair manual, the codes and an easy method of having the car cough them out was right there in the book. The book paid for itself after having to replace two timing belts, a water pump, rotor and oil pump. D@mn 200,000+ mile cars.
No, it does not allow them to do this with access to trouble code information. Tweaking modern day computers has already been accomplished with modifications to the engine's running paramaters through external chips and repogramming of PCMs. People's engines don't just catch fire because you chipped it and it now make 10 more horsepower. Engine fires occur, for example, when your cooling systems fails because you neglected it. Or, better yet, an unprotected electrical circuit such as the one I know morins like to put into their bumping sound system.
I wasn't aware that manufaturers WEREN'T releasing those codes. While BMW uses a funky doodad to reset the oil usage timer, both my Corvette and PT cruiser can ofer up trouble codes via the dash display AND all of those codes are documented on the net.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
RTFA, the codes have been avalible to dealerships, this means your local chain (quaker, jiffy lube) or your local mechanic still didn't have acess to them, so you'd either have to go the the dealership and pay their higher prices, or go to your local mechanic and pay more because it would take longer to figure out what was wrong, btw, IMO going to a dealership is throwing your money away ussually, free estimate, they told me it would cost $115 (parts and labor) to replace a seatbelt and a window roller handle thingy, i went to a junkyard, payed the guy about $20 and took the half an hour to replace them myself
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
That's clearly a troll - but either way it should be pointed out that the engine control computer doesn't really do much of anything that would put anyone at "risk". The steering and brakes are, at their core, not reliant on the computer to function. That's because other things (like dead batteries and running out of gas) could also disable the computer. No one's gonna "blow anything up" by tweaking the car computer - unless they're doing something else as well...
OBD-II is required on all new vehicles sold in the US since 1996. The protocol is open, but manufacturers would add additional information that they did not disclose to outsiders.
Sounds like what Microsoft did to Kerberos...
I had a Subaru with a chronic check engine light problem. Two mechanics (one operating out of the Subaru dealer and one non-dealer) told me that (on Subarus anyway) that quite often the vague "service engine" light indicates a failure in emissions control or some other non-critical part, and unless the failure is causing a loss of performance or your car to just plain not work, that quite often it's not worth worrying about. (And even with my failed emissions control systems I still passed all emissions testing with flying colors... so I think quite often the non-critical part that's failed is the light itself...)
"Enter "GLYCERINE" as a code, then press L1 for a nitro boost."
Increasingly, higher-end vehicles are coming on the market with steering, brakes, throttle, etc. that are completely controlled by electronic sensors and other "drive-by-wire" technologies.
Hopefully said systems have a Lithium battery back-up that's more reliable than my PalmPilot's.
I think this could definately pave the way for some cool mini-ITX projects (see previous slashdot article). I'm not sure how exactly these diagnostics run though, or what information they provide.
I think in some systems you can get (and maybe set) your fuel-to-air ratio, which controls how rich your car is burning gas and to some extent power. Turbochargers are based on providing extra air flow allowing for more gas to also be mixed in.
Even if you can't stat your car on the fly, it would be quite cool to have the onboard PC able to do something other than play Mp3's.
I'd like to wire one into the speedometer and gas gauge, then have it calculate milage based on speed and the current fuel/air ratio.
Checksum error. Now terminating system: brakes - phorm
That's not really fair to say. The service manuals for the fifth-generation Corvette give you practically everything but the ECU's source code. I don't know about GM's other vehicles but would guess that's a company-wide practice.
The truth is, most manufacturers were already on board with this policy.
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
CODE 0000-FFFF:
YOUR CAR IS BROKEN. BUY A NEW ONE.
Wah!
Have you got any examples of production vehicles that have drive-by-wire controls for anything other than the throttle and transmission? The article that you pointed to only mentioned throttle control in current vehicles.
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
FYI- a car mod being illegal doesn't stop it from happening.
Need a Catering Connection
Imagine: you're doing the monthly check, and discover that your mileage has suddenly dropped 10%. Even before something goes wrong, you could take it to a garage and give them strong diagnostic data.
When the time comes to sell the car, you can provide a day-to-day profile of the car's history: every oil change, fillup, and repair automatically logged. Real examples of winter vs summer and city vs. highway performance.
Seems to me that the technology is already available, and some of the functions are already in place. All that really needs to be done is for someone to hack together an interface. Any takers?
Interociter
-=What do I want? I'm an American. I want more.
- had access to the engine diagnostics codes
- could override/modify some things (e.g. shut down one injector, select Canadian shift regime)
- had a summary screen that showed engine & transmission status
- let you access the body computer (e.g. heat, A/C).
I had hoped that was the coming thing, but they charged too much for the touch screen. The dealership was forthcoming with info on the codes, or you could buy the service manual at a reasonable price.Too bad. A great car, still looked good, my wife loved it, I could work on it, but we couldn't get parts to keep it on the road any more.
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." --Napoleon Bonaparte
Go to ebay and buy a scan tool. You see the engine light on your car go on. Even if you have the tool and plug it into your car's computer it only spits out an error number and a little extra information. What does it mean? No one knows....except for the car makers who want to charge you money for the manual.
This is the same stuff Free Software Philosophy seeks to fight: closed systems that take rights away from the user. You bought the car....why can't you figure out what is wrong with it on your own if you choose to do so? Why do automakers want to keep your property a secret from you?
I mean, my car is a lease. If there's any trouble whatsoever it goes back to the dealer for servicing. In fact, it's in their best interest not to fuck the car up since they have to cover repairs under warranty, and they have to buy the car back at the end of the lease. So long independent mechanic, I barely knew thee.
Although I'd probably be mad if I tinkered with cars in the same way I tinkered with computers and didn't have the open source equivalent.
This is also happening here in Europe now that the EU have provided a standard called EOBD for all newly-developed cars which is actually the OBD-2 system which has been available for some time.
This months issue of Elektor Electronics has full details on the interface, with next months issue presenting a do-it-yourself EOBD diagnosis adapter. They also do an OBD-2 to RS232 adapter for those geeks wanting to play using their laptop in true "The Fast 'n The Furious" style.
[)amien
Don't just keep driving... also, flip a switch.
The Chevy Sprint and Geo Metro and other Chevy cars of that vintage had a blinking "check engine" light, which would go on automatically as soon as you hit 30,000 miles, and each 30,000 miles, after that.
This was a result of a single-pole, double throw switch in the odometer. There was also a single-pole double-throw switch inside the fuse area (below and two the left of the steering wheel). In other words, a standard two location three-way switch assembly.
The "corrective" action for the blinky light was to bring the car into the dealer, pay them a lot of money for "scheduled maintenance", and whatever engine parts they happened to have an excess of in inventory in their parts department that month.
And for them to toggle the position of the switch in the fuse holder, to turn off the blinky light until you'd gone another 30,000 miles.
Hooray for blinky lights that get people to spend money at the dealer!
-- Terry
Don't laugh about it - one of GMH's vehicles (with an automatic transimission), if you do a sequence like "Ign on - select 1st - Ign off - select Drive - Ign on" it will default to a particular transmission mode that you can't get by pressing any of the knobs or buttons in the car.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
uhhh, what you get with a commercial tool is almost always the international standard codes, occasionally manufacturer-specific drivetrain codes. with very few ($2000 and up range) exceptions do you get the "chassis codes" for traction enhancement controls, transmission/engine crosstalk codes, and so on.
you still are not going to get them free, but they will be availiable in updates some day before we all die to professional test readers.
presumably this will also include the equivalent to the "mode 4" international code for the wacko ones. "mode 4" is also known as "reset," turns out the $$$ light on the dash.
wanna check out scanners, including build-your-own, try
http://www.batauto.com/technical/scaninfo.shtml
and for code lists for specific cars, try
http://www.batauto.com/technical/
and click what you want. as usual, you get what you pay for, no deposit no return, use at your own risk, etc. etc.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Do you understand? This is huge. Huge, huge. This is indeed the "opening" of the closed information source. It's as if MS agreed to open *all* proprietary informational resources (private KBs, training, diag tools, etc.) that were previously used only by their premier tech support reps.
Now will most mechanics avail themselves of this? Heck no. Most don't know or care how to truly troubleshoot; there are easier ways to flag hours that don't involve trying to convince a skeptical customer that you're not ripping them off.
But to those who love troubleshooting, this is manna from heaven. Take codes for example. An earlier poster said they were useless. If all you had was the description of the code, that's a correct statement.
However, if you also knew the exact criteria the PCM needed to see before throwing a code (this knowledge will be one of the takeaways from this act), you could then use your understanding of the proprietary system (a second takeaway) to straightforwardly troubleshoot and fix it.
Make sense? This is a hallmark day for savvy techs (or rather, August 31, 2003 will be <grin>).
Cheers,
-jm
That Check Engine light was the most annoying thing! When was it lighted, I'd never know if it was signaling 30 seconds to warp-core breach or just a glitched oxygen sensor aft of the catalytic converter. The damned "owner's manual" was pretty vague about it, like "Check Engine: Check Engine". Garages can plug into a port, get it in text, then make "expensive engine repair" noises.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.