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Fortran 2000 Committee Draft

Richard Maine writes "John Reid, convenor of the ISO Fortran standards comittee, has posted the following announcement to some Fortran-related forums: 'I am pleased to tell you that the draft Fortran 2000 standard is now out for comment. ... The J3 (USA Fortran committee) version, which is identical except for the title page and the headers and footers, is available in ps, pdf, text, or source (latex). This is a very significant milestone for Fortran 2000. It is a major extension of Fortran 95 that has required a significant amount of development work by the J3. ... The abstract of the revision, which lists the major enhancements is appended. I have written an informal description of the new features, which will be published in the next issue of Fortran Forum (about to appear).'"

The formal position is that a CD (Committee Draft) Registration and Approval Ballot is in progress. The deadline for comments (from national bodies) is 27 December. Each national body will have its own deadline ahead of 27 December, so be sure to submit your personal comments to your national body well before then. For the USA, they should be sent to Deborah Donovan, email: ddonovan@itic.org. For the UK, they should be sent to David Muxworthy, email: d.muxworthy@ed.ac.uk.

John Reid, ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG5 Convener

.................................................. ......................

ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG5 N1494

Committee Draft revision of ISO/IEC 1539-1:1997 - Programming Language Fortran - Part 1: Base language

Abstract

Fortran is a computer language for scientific and technical programming that is tailored for efficient run-time execution on a wide variety of processors. It was first standardized in 1966 and the standard has since been revised three times (1978, 1991, 1997). The revision of 1991 was major and those of 1978 and 1997 were relatively minor. This proposed fourth revision is major and has been made following a meeting of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG5 in 1997 that considered all the requirements of users, as expressed through their national bodies.

The significant enhancements in the 1991 revision were dynamic storage, structures, derived types, pointers, type parameterization, modules, and array language. The main thrust of the 1997 revision was in connection with alignment with HPF (High Performance Fortran).

The major enhancements for this revision are

(1) Derived type enhancements: parameterized derived types, improved control of accessibility, improved structure constructors, and finalizers.

(2) Object oriented programming support: type extension and inheritance, polymorphism, dynamic type allocation, and type-bound procedures.

(3) Data manipulation enhancements: allocatable components, deferred type parameters, VOLATILE attribute, explicit type specification in array constructors, pointer enhancements, extended initialization expressions, and enhanced intrinsic procedures.

(4) Input/output enhancements: asynchronous transfer, stream access, user specified transfer operations for derived types, user specified control of rounding during format conversions, named constants for preconnected units, the flush statement, regularization of keywords, and access to error messages.

(5) Procedure pointers.

(6) Support for IEC 60559 (IEEE 754) exceptions.

(7) Interoperability with the C programming language.

(8) Support for international usage: access to ISO 10646 4-byte characters and choice of decimal or comma in numeric formatted input/output.

(9) Enhanced integration with the host operating system: access to command line arguments, environment variables, and processor error messages.

In addition, there are numerous minor enhancements.

Except in extremely minor ways, this revision is upwards compatible with the current standard, that is, a program that conforms to the present standard will conform to the revised standard.

The enhancements are in response to demands from users and will keep Fortran appropriate for the needs of present-day programmers without losing the vast investment in existing programs.

105 of 273 comments (clear)

  1. latex..hmmm... by selderrr · · Score: 3, Funny

    available in ps, pdf, text, or source (latex).

    Now who says Fortran is not a sexy language ?? hum ?

  2. What is Fortran used for these days? by beanerspace · · Score: 4, Interesting
    As a programmer who cut his teeth on good-old K&R C back in the 80's and has been fortunate/unfortunate enough to avoid shooting himself in the foot with Fortran and/or Cobol ... I have 2 questions?
    1. What are the compelling reasons to use Fortran in 2002?
    2. Do they differ much from the use of Fortran in the past?
    3. Is it the same language as the Fortran of prior decades?
    4. Can someone summarize without the tech-eze the future of Fortran - especially in light of the aforementioned Fortran 2000 Committee Draft?

    Just curious I guess.
    1. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by bsdparasite · · Score: 2, Informative
      It is still being used in structural analysis tools. These old fortran programs run and run well. Libraries of stuff have been built long ago and they just work. Sure, C is great, but for running simulations which are 2 days long on a Cray, Fortran can't be beat.

    2. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by Quixote · · Score: 2, Funny

      I have 2 questions? 1. ..
      2. ..
      3. ..
      4. ..

      I think you have a bigger problem.

    3. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by sisukapalli1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is one compelling reason for using Fortran still: the set of available libraries. By libraries, I do not mean generic libraries to connect to databases, or to parse XML, or such, but libraries that say, simulate the chemistry of gases in the atmosphere, and so on.

      The main pain with such libraries is the amount of effort that goes on into debugging and evaluating the code. In case of many Fortran libraries for numerical analysis, a lot of that work is already done. While, porting it to C/C++ or Java appears trivial (in most cases it is also not trivial), doing the QA involves unacceptable costs.

      There is also a thing or two to be said about the speeds, which many folks have noted.

      S

    4. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by /ASCII · · Score: 5, Informative
      Fortran is NOT the same language as in prior decades. Some differences:
      • Fortran77 and earlier where made for punchcard machines. Incorrect indentation caued lines to be treated as comments, variable declarations or something other than what was intended.
      • For the same reason, anything past character 73 was a comment in Fortran77.
      • Fortran allows dynamic memory allocation nowdays.
      • Global variables don't use the hideous common block

      The list goes on and on, but these are changes that where implemented in Fortran90. Since then, attepts have been made to turn Fortran into an OO language. Aid i18n and other things to make Fortran less of a CS language.

      The reason you might want to try out Fortran is because of speed. Under gcc/Linux C may be the fastest language, but under Solaris, Irix, AIX and other oldschool OSes, Fortran is still speed king, for two reasons.

      Firstly, the Fortran compilers are well tuned mature products under these platforms.

      Secondly, the Fortran language makes all kinds of assumptions that the programmer must adhere to. Example: If a function recives two arrays, they must not overlap. This allows Fortran compilers to do loop unrolling in cases where a C-compiler cannot.

      --
      Try out fish, the friendly interactive shell.
    5. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by vi-rocks · · Score: 4, Informative
      What are the compelling reasons to use Fortran in 2002?

      Fortran is still used quite a bit in scientific and engineering circles. There is a HUGE code base that people (understandably) do not want to give up. I spent three years in the mid-90's developing groundwater numerical models with Fortran90.

      Some reasearch instutituions and software development companies have starting using C; however, mainly for pre- and post-processors. Many are still using Fortran numerical engines.

      Another reason that Fortran was still popular (at least through the 90's) was that some of the major compilers (Such as IBMs Fortran complier) ROCKED. Some simulations that I was working on took weeks to peform and the compliers were very good at optimizing the Fortran code -- without the scientist getting too close to the hardware.

      I must admit; however, that today all my programming is either done in C, Objective-C, or Perl -- even though gcc will compile Fortran code. (Can you believe I wrote a postscript driver for printing evelopes on our lab's printer in Fortran! )

    6. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by /ASCII · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Fortran90 and C play nice nowadays when it comes to cross language library usage. At least in my experience, which is limited to the standard compilers under IBM SP2, IRIX and Solaris.

      --
      Try out fish, the friendly interactive shell.
    7. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by Draoi · · Score: 3, Interesting
      A lot of the human genome mapping stuff was written in Fortran. I knew one of the guys who was working on it (in Cambridge - UK, not MA!)

      Loadsa stuff on Fortran and genome mapping here This site has thousands of contemporary applications of Fortran. Just follow the link back up ...

      --
      Alison

      "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein

    8. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by slide-rule · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Let me somewhat answer w/ what I know from the basis of Fortran '90; I haven't seen anything specific on 2000. Where I work (large aerospace industry company) all the Fortran code is still the old-school stuff (F'77... or older); there's so much of it, and it uses so many anachronisms and non-ANSI (machine and/or compiler dependent tricks / hacks / bugs / unknown evil things) code constructs that the majority of it just *cannot* even be ported to '90. (I know... I tried porting a rather small thing over to only compile with the new compiler, and all the output was way, way wrong, owing to an unknown issue that I didn't have the skill and the boss didn't have the money to chase.)

      Now, F'90 didn't have true OO in it; it had just introduced "MODULE"s, and for those couple of us rebellious "young'uns" that embraced it, '90 was far and away better. I'm personally a big fan of more complete OO programming, but the bosses and supervisors here just cannot comprehend what it even is. (I've tried to explain it several times... their perspective, and perhaps refusal to learn from someone half their age, prevents their understanding at why OO is, generally, a Good Thing). Are the current Fortran languages similar? Well, in the sense that C++ is (or can be) similar to C, then yes... assuming you only code to the bits that you understand. But doing so really defeats the whole purpose of having revised the language.

      For my $0.02, with where Fortran seems to be trying to head (not that I've read the referenced draft; I haven't), we might as well write and compile with C++; the vaunted speed advantage starts bleeding away with (direct or indirect) access to pointers and other things, and my experience here the past several years is that said speed difference is mainly a function of the quality of the compiler anyway. (And ours sucks big hairy ones, and I won't say which one it is.)

      The biggest insurmountable hurdle here is that Fortran now-a-days is really only *used* in the scientific community, and, by and large, such community is less concerned with staying up with the new learning curve of programming practices and more concerned with getting the next thing done. (For a humorous semi-related example of this, consider our recent "port" of a well-used CFD code into Fortran '90... we changed the make file to use "f90" rather than "f77" and made sure it still compiled... huzzah! we now have a Fortran '90 program *cough*NOT*cough*...)

    9. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by Schnapple · · Score: 2, Funny
      This reminds me of an old joke I heard in College:

      What will Fortran look like 10 years from now?
      Who knows? But no matter what it looks like they'll still call it Fortran...

      OK, not exactly a rimshot joke

    10. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by clary · · Score: 2

      Q: What programming language will engineers use in 50 years?

      A: I don't know, but they will call it Fortran.

      --

      "Rub her feet." -- L.L.

    11. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 3, Informative
      Fortran is NOT the same language as in prior decades. Some differences:
      • Fortran77 and earlier where made for punchcard machines. Incorrect indentation caued lines to be treated as comments, variable declarations or something other than what was intended.
      • For the same reason, anything past character 73 was a comment in Fortran77.
      • Fortran allows dynamic memory allocation nowdays.
      • Global variables don't use the hideous common block
      Gee, I used FORTRAN 77 on VAXes through most of the early to mid 80s and we:
      • Didn't use punch cards: VT100s baby
      • Only comments and statement numbers had fixed columns: you're thinking of FORTRAN IV.
      • Clarification: 1 through 72 code, 73 through 80 were comments.
      • Dynamic memory allocation existed as a DEC extension to VAX FORTRAN. Lots of other hardware manufacturers provided the same capability, it just wasn't standard.
      • ...and explain to me the difference between a global variable and a variable in a common block.
      Also, last I checked (admitedly a while ago), FORTRAN under Linux gcc was translated to C for compilation.
      --
      They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
      Ben
    12. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by kaisyain · · Score: 2

      Blitz's benchmarks show that Fortran isn't quite the speed king you imply it is. As they show Blitz++ does more aggressive loop unrolling than Fortran. The main performance bottleneck seems to be that Blitz++ doesn't do loop jamming, although they show there are circumstances in which loop jamming makes the Fortran compilers slower. The moral of the story: benchmark, never assume.

      Fortran may be faster for your particular application. But it may be slower. If performance is that important then you have to write both and benchmark them. If performance isn't that important then other considerations (availability of libraries) dominate.

    13. Re:What is Fortran used for these days? by vi-rocks · · Score: 2, Informative
      No. You're a liar. A dirty, rotten liar.

      Man! I hate being called a liar -- OK, you asked for it! -- Here is the code. The executable was wrapped in a shell scrip that shuffled everything nicely along -- it also required standard input file (text) to define the address for the envelope

      A link to "EV" Fortran source code
  3. As they say... by cperciva · · Score: 2

    "I don't know what programming language we're going to be using in 2000, but it's going to be called Fortran."

    Ok, so we're not all using Fortran any more, but it isn't completely dead -- or rather, the language which is *now* called "Fortran" isn't completely dead, even though it has little in common with the original "Fortran" beyond the name.

    1. Re:As they say... by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The original quote appeared in an issue of Scientific American that came out in the late 1990s. The article was on, you guessed it, the amazing longevity of FORTRAN. The bottom line is that there are a fantastic number of huge FORTRAN libraries out in the real world for doing all sorts of number crunching. The libraries are well understood, any bad behavior at boundary conditions is documented and they have a lot of milage on them so the results are generally regarded as valid. It makes far more sense to keep something called FORTRAN around that is compatible with this code than is does to attempt to re-write and re-test.

      Oh, and no one cares that there isn't a pretty GUI interface to programs for analyzing structural stress, heat flow analysis, doing x-ray crystalography, etc.

      --
      They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
      Ben
    2. Re:As they say... by OverCode@work · · Score: 2

      Maybe so. I'm kind of glad we're not stuck with the original C, or McCarthy's first version of Lisp. Both of those were pretty weak compared to ANSI C and Common Lisp. :)

      It's interesting to see Fortran continue to evolve. Evidently a lot of people like it, for one reason or another.

      Yet another language added to my list of things to learn at some point. :)

      -John

  4. Need a GNU version by alexhmit01 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I had to learn F77 for a class my freshman year (1997, not THAT long ago) and we were working with F77. A part of that appeared to be because there were free compilers. Since most Fortran code is done in research groups that aren't computer groups, they may not all think to buy a real compiler.

    A Free F2000 compiler - that researchers here about - would go a long way towards getting Fortran coders into Fortran 2000.

    My understanding is that F95 and now F00 (or whatever) are "modern" langugages.

    Amazing what you can do WITH backwards compatibility if you put energy into it.

    Alex

    1. Re:Need a GNU version by Shimbo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      A Free F2000 compiler - that researchers here about - would go a long way towards getting Fortran coders into Fortran 2000.

      Yeah, trouble is a modern Fortran compiler is both hard to write and about as unsexy as it gets in the GNU/Linux world. Which is sad because the language is dismissed by folks who should know better, based on syntax that was obsolete even in F77.


      Now we can return to the: I haven't used Fortran for 25 years, has anything changed posts? And why doesn't someone write an OO language based on C?

    2. Re:Need a GNU version by Draoi · · Score: 2

      GNU already provides a compiler for Fortran77 - it's part of the gcc collection. There's also a drive to release a Fortran95 compiler.

      --
      Alison

      "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein

    3. Re:Need a GNU version by sql*kitten · · Score: 2

      Since most Fortran code is done in research groups that aren't computer groups, they may not all think to buy a real compiler.

      No, a research group with limited funding is more likely to buy a commercial compiler. The reason is the quality of code generation. I don't have the numbers to hand, but I have experienced vendor-supplied compilers like SPARCworks producing binaries that run twice as fast as identical code compiled with gcc (probably because gcc has limited ability to leverage platform specific features, and vendors have unlimited ability to do so). On PCs, Watcom had the best compiler for a while, and Motorola's compiler for PPC is the best on that platform. Spending money on a compiler can result in significantly lower hardware costs, particularly if you have few developers and lots of user workstations/compute nodes.

  5. Re:Do we care? by Pedrito · · Score: 5, Funny

    Isn't Fortran completely irrelevant in the 21st century anyways?

    Absolutely not!!! NASA uses it to slam probes into Mars.

  6. If only fortran were useful by SlugLord · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'll start by admitting that I have little experience with fortran and with the applications thereof.

    That being said, what experience I do have is that fortran is excessively difficult to write and lacking in some of the basic features I'd expect a programming language (I'm not familiar with fortran 95, but fortran 77 ::shudder:: doesn't support recursion, lexical scoping, etc., to my knowledge)

    I can understand teaching fortran 77 to allow people do program for old interfaces and deal with the old code that would be expensive to rewrite, but why would you revise fortran to make it more usable? Why not just use C?

    Perhaps I'm missing something, but I think fortran should not be taught in college (it is required for some majors here) except in the context of the historical significance of fortran.

    1. Re:If only fortran were useful by WetCat · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because Fortran 90, for example, is one of
      the most parallelizable languages right now
      that support automatic parallelization to
      many CPUs.
      Because a lot of numeric libraries are available for that language.
      Because it's a lot easier to write numeric calculation programs on Fortran.

  7. Background on Fortran by tibbetts · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those of us under 50, here's some history of the granddaddy of all high-level programming languages.

    IIRC, my former graduate advisor and professor was on the team that wrote a very early Fortran compilers at MIT in the late 50s, written entirely on punch cards. We've come a long way in ~50 years.

    --
    :wq
    1. Re:Background on Fortran by gorilla · · Score: 2

      I'd call COBOL the grandaddy of high level languages. FLOWMATIC, which evolved into COBOL, was started in 1952 by Grace Hopper, which makes it about 2 years older than FORTRAN.

    2. Re:Background on Fortran by jbolden · · Score: 2

      1) The compiled code is fast

      2) The language is very easy to learn; so people who are good at science but not necc. good at computer science can write good code in it.

      3) It was extremely innovative when it was invented.

    3. Re:Background on Fortran by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 2

      Parts 1 and 2 go together. Fortran prevents certain "pointer nightmares" allowed in C which reduce performance.

      -Paul Komarek

  8. Compile Time? by ellem · · Score: 2

    Damn! It takes a long time to compile Fortran... It's been two years already... And this is just a Draft!

    --
    This .sig is fake but accurate.
  9. Goodie! by peterdaly · · Score: 2

    This reminds me of a couple years ago when our AS/400 RPG programming group went to a users group meeting and found out about a "new" command which will finally allows them to manipulate dates as dates in RPG, not numbers!

    The really shocking part was the function had been part of their language for over 5 years. Imagine if my Java skills were 5 years out of date. I would be making flaming applets on webpages thinking that was advanced.

    In Fortran's favor, I do hear many people still use it today and it has plenty of good uses. I would like to know whether it really does, or whether the people who say that have their head in the sand. I am young enough to have missed most things Fortran, starting my programming with exposure with QBASIC then Pascal as my learning labguages.

    -Pete

    1. Re:Goodie! by MadHungarian · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There are a lot of factories out running FORTRAN, usually on DEC/COMPAQ/HP OpenVMS systems to do plant floor control. I just ported an OpenVMS system to Windows 2000, about 1/3 of the code is FORTRAN. (Why not Linux you ask, because Linux does not have "events" like OpenVMS and Windows 2000 have. Given the extra time it would have taken to change the structure of the code, it was cheaper to buy Windows. Actually my customer would have prefered Linux.)

  10. Could be a step backwards by CaptainAlbert · · Score: 2, Informative

    So, someone's finally noticed that using a souped-up version of BASIC for writing mission-critical numerical code is a bad idea. :)

    However, it's likely that most programmers who needed features such as inheritence, polymorphism, function pointers and so on have already bitten the bullet and moved to a C++ environment; trading off some gripes about the "standard implicit type conversions" (spit) for the increase in modularity, interoperability, etc. Introducing such features into the Fortran language now isn't going to re-write thirty years of pre-F2000 code. It feels like we're going to end up with "VB for scientists"at this rate!
    But the real reason that so many people still stubbornly use Fortran is *performance*. Because the language is so much simpler (i.e. less expressive) than C or Java, it's hell of a lot easier to perform optimisations on it. Good Fortran compilers can re-arrange loop nests and do all sorts of clever stuff to improve parallelism, locality, and other aspects of performance. Add expressiveness (in the form of pointers, for example) and you add many extra complications which can render the optimisations invalid. If you can't optimise it as aggressively as you used to, you've just lost the penultimate excuse that anyone is still writing in Fortran. (The last excuse is that the 500,000 line codebase they're working on is also written in Fortran :-)).

    Now I'm sure that lots of professional users and compiler writers have been involved in drafting the new standard, and that these concerns have been addressed. But I still reckon that Fortran needs euthanasia, not resurrection!

    There, my 2p is now your 2p :)

    --
    These sigs are more interesting tha
  11. Re:And surprisingly in other news... by hugesmile · · Score: 2, Informative
    You young whippersnappers don't appreciate the past. Computers and languages were here long before you were, and trust me, Slashdot wouldn't even exist, if it weren't for the pioneers working in Fortran and Cobol, and Grace Hopper running around with her 12 inch wire telling us what a nanosecond is.


    Those who don't learn from the past are condemed to repeat it. So learn to appreciate it, or your next job is going to be coding in Fortran 2000.


    10 if (you .ne. learnfrompast) then 10

  12. Re:And surprisingly in other news... by arivanov · · Score: 2

    I think it is you who needs to get his head out of his a...:

    1. Fortran will not die until someone rewrites all those scientific computation code into C. And this will not happen anytime in the immediate future. On top of it (the last time I tried) the fortran source generated by some popular symbolic computation packages (like Mapple) was usable (after hacking) and the C was not. C++ - not even f... close.

    2. Cobol - no comment.

    3. Pascal. I have been watching C++ programmers take a month what used to take me a day or so with TP for Windows or early Delphy. I know - neither of them is suitable for big projects but they will still blow away C++ for RAD even now. And I do not care anymore typing away in perl anyway ;-)

    So get a grip on reality and learn a bit about these "supposedly dead" programming languages before opening your a...e (err... mouth).

    --
    Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
    http://www.sigsegv.cx/
  13. Re:Do we care? by T.E.D. · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Isn't Fortran completely irrelevant in the 21st century anyways?
    Absolutely not!!! NASA uses it to slam probes into Mars.

    I hope this gets modded up as funny (because it is). However, I feel compelled to point out two things:
    1. Fortran is indeed in wide use still. I know the Flight Simulator business is chock full of it. I'd suspect anything that involves a lot of number crunching and has been done for more than 5 years has a lot of it done in Fortran.
    2. The mars probe actually had an unusual amount of non-Fortran code in it. It had a great deal of AI software in it, which makes a bit of sense when you consider that you can't exactly have someone sitting in Houston trying to control it with a joystick in realtime. The ping time to Mars is just brutal. :-)

    So Fortran may have taken us to the Moon, but it takes an expert system to slam probes into Mars.

  14. This raises an interesting question..... by dannyp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How many /.-ers have ever written anything in Fortran? Sounds like a poll topic to me.....

    1. Re:This raises an interesting question..... by vrt3 · · Score: 2
      I did, at university. Fortran 77. First in 1993-1994 as general introduction to programming (my study was not CS-oriented).

      And a few years later, in 1996-1997 to run some very simple simulations concerning ... ahum ... don't even remember ... it had something to do with physicochemics.
      Amazingly, I failed the exam, due to a combination of circumstances:

      • I had been practicing on my Pentium (100 MHz), which compiled the programs in a few seconds, using a decent editor
      • The assignment asked for a combination of two existing programs (we were provided with a small library of existing programs at the exam)
      • I wanted to copy-and-paste the two programs into one
      • The only editor on the PC didn't allow that (!)
      • I managed to combine them, but it resulted in a number of compilation errors
      • The damn PC was very slow: a compilation took over 5 minutes, during which I could do nothing else (it was running MS-DOS...)
      • There wasn't enough time fix all the bugs
      • 2 minutes before deadline, I saw the light: I was supposed to change a few numbers in the first program, let it run, note the output, use it as input into the second program and be done
      • 2 minutes was not enough to implement it that way (remember the slow compilation times)
      • I didn't see that solution at first because writing down a number on paper as a means of IPC is against my principles
      --
      This sig under construction. Please check back later.
    2. Re:This raises an interesting question..... by turgid · · Score: 2

      I had to for my final year project at uni. I wasn't allowed to use C, and I had to write standards-compliant F77 i.e. with none of the convenient extensions. The program was to look for structure in simulated collapsing gas clouds in the intertellar medium, i.e. to look for protostars. I ended up having to implement a doubly linked list and binary trees inside (static) arrays. It was a miracle it worked. After learning C, going to FORTRAN was hell. You can see where early 80s microcomputer BASICs came from when you are reduced to writing FORTRAN-77, only the source formatting is worse...

    3. Re:This raises an interesting question..... by TeknoHog · · Score: 2
      As a physicist, I've written most of my scientific code in F90. It's far from a dead language. I agree with many people that F77 is a horrible mess, but F90 and later versions are excellent for scientific stuff, for example if you consider array handling features.

      The long history of FORTRAN (sic) means a large base of scientific libraries. This is also something that prevents switching to C[++] overnight. In fact I'd much prefer using F90+ for all low level code.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    4. Re:This raises an interesting question..... by TheMatt · · Score: 2

      Yo. I have written a genetic algorithm for minimizing cluster energies in F95. I've written various utilities for my theoretical chemistry work in F95, e.g., a program for doing reflection-principle spectra from ab initio calculations.

      Also, (almost?) all major quantum chemistry programs are written in Fortran (usually FORTRAN77), so whenever I need to hack the programs to correct the output, or give me something new, you must do it in Fortran.

      --

      Fortran programmer...oh yeah. Array math for life!

    5. Re:This raises an interesting question..... by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 2

      Excised from my resume long ago:

      1980 to 1981 - Missile Applicatiopn Program - Timing and Resolution: optimize launch times for ICBMs and SLBMs to minize launch interval and probability of conflicting arrival. (IBM FORTRAN)
      1981 to 1982 - Missile Application Program - MIRV Domain Generation: provide interactive planning tool for assigning MIRVed missiles to targets. (IBM FORTRAN)
      1983 (early) - Can't talk about it but FORTRAN
      1983 - 1985 - Over-the-horizon Backscatter (OTH-B) Radar: Track History Programs (DEC FORTRAN 77)
      1985 - 1987 - Relocatable Over-the-horizon Radar (ROTH-R): Detection and Tracking related programs (DEC FORTRAN 77)

      Then I got to start writing stuff using Ada.

      --
      They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
      Ben
    6. Re:This raises an interesting question..... by foobar104 · · Score: 2

      I wrote (well, wrote most of) the engine module for an F-16 flight simulator. All in Fortran 77. Did a bunch of work on the simexec, too, which was in Ada 83.

      I'm conflicted. I'm not sure if I'm bragging, or confessing.

    7. Re:This raises an interesting question..... by fishbowl · · Score: 2

      I wrote a Turing machine simulator, a lexical analyzer (actually more of a weighted million monkeys simulator), and a card game in fortran, between 1978 and 1979. I wrote my own random number generator also. My programs worked on the compiler in the Burroughs B6700 and the Microsoft compiler for TRS-80 Model I. Somewhere I have all this on paper tape, printouts, and 5.25" floppies.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  15. Neither Fortran, Latin, nor Greek is dead by yerricde · · Score: 3, Informative

    You compare Fortran 2000 to supposedly "dead" spoken languages with Microsoft version numbers after them.

    Fortran is not dead. It is still used for numerical computation because its default pointer aliasing rules allow. C only picked up similar aliasing rules in C99, which no common compiler fully supports yet.

    Latin is not dead. It simply became Italian, with forks turning into Romanian, Spanish, and French, and then Portuguese, Sardinian, and several other languages forking in turn from those.

    Greek is not dead. What the heck do you think they speak in Greece?

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
    1. Re:Neither Fortran, Latin, nor Greek is dead by fsmunoz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Latin is not dead. It simply became Italian, with forks turning into Romanian, Spanish, and French, and then Portuguese, Sardinian, and several other languages forking in turn from those.

      Actually that's not quite right; all the neo-latin languages are directly descendant from Latin (minus perhaps local variations that are that: variations). Romanian, Spanish French, Portuguese, Sardinian, etc, were all derivations from latin (i.e. all first descendants). TO add more fuel to the fire 'Spanish' is actually a gross generalization; it should be properly called Castillian, since it was the language of the Kingdom of Castille and appeared at the same time as Portuguese, Leonese and Catalan (Occitan).

      cheers,

      fsmunoz

  16. Re:"Fortran 2000" by SEWilco · · Score: 2, Funny
    As someone whose first programming language was Fortran IV, I prefer to think of this as "Fortran MM".

    ...and I can assure you that computers in Year 4 were quite different than these photon-emitting wriggly things we have nowadays.

  17. Fortran .NET actually exists by yerricde · · Score: 2

    FortranXP.. part of the Fortran.NET initiative.

    Fortran for .NET is real.

    That was just the first result from this Google search.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
  18. Re:2000? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    They've had some problems with dates in teh past :). I seem to recall that after Fortran77 the next development version was called Fortran8X, because it was going to be finialized sometime in the 1980s. Well time bassed and it's now what we call Fortran90 becasue they didn't get it done until then.

    I assume with will be Fortran200X, with X being whatever year they finally nail down the final spec.

  19. Re:First Fortran77 Post by slickwillie · · Score: 2

    I thought the 'C' went in column 6. It makes the draft standards really hard to read, especially if you get the punchcard format.

  20. Difference between FORTRAN 2000 and... by sphealey · · Score: 2
    Could someone please explain how FORTRAN 2000 is different from Ada? Or PL/I for that matter? Talk about extending something past the point of its intended use until it reaches escape velocity from reality...

    sPh

    1. Re:Difference between FORTRAN 2000 and... by Dirk+Pitt · · Score: 2
      Well, for starters, Fortran 2000 is different than Ada and PL/I in that it will be backwards compatible with F90, allowing the MILLIONS of lines of F90 code in production to move forward.

      Secondly, in FEA and CAD there are always big pushes to migrate to C++ or another 'modern' language, only to be rejected because standard C/C++ math libraries aren't fast enough for high-end sci apps (HUGE matrix operations, millions+ DOF models, weather prediction, etc.), or, at least the performance/efficiency gains aren't good enough to warrant migration. Not to mention there are a scary number of MechE's and other scientists out there who think that FORTRAN is the only extant language. ;-)

    2. Re:Difference between FORTRAN 2000 and... by sphealey · · Score: 2
      Well, for starters, Fortran 2000 is different than Ada and PL/I in that it will be backwards compatible with F90, allowing the MILLIONS of lines of F90 code in production to move forward.
      Mind you, this is all tongue in cheek. No language wars needed today!

      But IRRC, a PL/I compiler will compile FORTRAN 66 code with no complaints.

      sPh

    3. Re:Difference between FORTRAN 2000 and... by William+Tanksley · · Score: 2

      But IRRC, a PL/I compiler will compile FORTRAN 66 code with no complaints.

      A PL/I compiler will compile Befunge code with no complaints :-). An amazing language -- if you can put two tokens together, the language design committee probably assigned them a meaning.

      (But not one which makes sense of Befunge, of course. :-)

      -Billy

    4. Re:Difference between FORTRAN 2000 and... by sphealey · · Score: 2
      Well, when one chooses to use a 200-blade Swiss Army Knife, one takes one's chances!

      But seriously, I believe it is actually part of the design spec of PL/I that it compile FORTRAN 66 "decks" correctly. Of course, we know now how well that little marketing trick worked out.

      sPh

  21. Re:Image problem by alienmole · · Score: 2

    When your language is over 50 years old, a few years here or there doesn't make a difference. Nobody is choosing to use FORTRAN based on marketing literature.

  22. Ave frater! by BluBrick · · Score: 2

    "Zero" non numerum est!

    --
    Ahh - My eye!
    The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
  23. What, no standardised exception handling? by gowen · · Score: 2

    As someone who writes Fortran 95 that has to be portable between two Intel Linux boxes (one w/NAG fortran on with Intels), and an OSF1 with Digital FORTRAN, standardised exception/signal handling [not just IEEE_FPE] would make my life soooo easy right now (the DEC one is great [ie Just Like C], the rest are ugly/nonexistent [or, at least, I can't find'em]).

    Actually, can I turn this into an AskSlashdot - Are there any really portable methods for doing exception handling in F95?

    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  24. Re:And surprisingly in other news... by PythonOrRuby · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think in general it helps to teach more than one language. The current trend is to have a "core language" that schools teach in excruciating detail so that students will be able to go out and get a job right away, because they have a "skill".

    But much of the time, they don't understand how or why what they've been taught actually works, which makes learning other programming languages vastly more difficult, since they're focusing on what's different in the syntax rather than on what's the same in the semantics.

  25. FORTRAN IS GREAT FOR MULTIPROCESSING by goombah99 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Fortran has some notable advantages over C. Perhaps the most latent advantage is in the realm of multi-processing. For example there are several statments that give the compiler big hints that the loop can be spread out. For example there is loop command that is like a FOR loop but specifically says the order of the loop evaluation does not matter. Other looping commands tell the computer to apply a function over an entire array at all positions specified in a map. Function declarations tell the compiler if a variable/array in the arg list will be altered by the function call. There are delberate limits on pointer type variables that forbid pointer arithmatic and allow compiler efficiencies. As a result fortran is a marvelous multi-processing language because the compiler knows how to allocate instructions safely and how to allocate memory optimally.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  26. Not Dead, living peacefully in the background by ilyahndre · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Fortran isn't entirely dead. At least to the scientific community. I am a Fortran programmer, working at in a research position and I'm not 50 years old, I'm not even 20. (Yeah for co-op)

    Truthfully, anything that Fortran can do, C can do better. But that wasn't always the case. Fortran used to be A1 for number crunching, and thus is used and still used by many research companies. Sometimes, if you don't have a CS degree its just easier to use the language you learned when you were in University or College than spend the time learning C or Java.

    Some older satellites (8-15yrs) used Fortran code. And if those satellites are still in the sky, (which they are) then those persons working on keeping and updating them need to use good 'ol Fortran to keep them up in the sky.

    Each 'new' version of Fortran tries to get a little bit more object-oriented than the last. At the moment I use both 77 and 90 (neither are object oriented). Fortran also has the lovely feature of GO TO!

    Fortran will probably be used for awhile longer. Even with .Net. Try it some time, its a rather amusing little language.

    1. Re:Not Dead, living peacefully in the background by TheMatt · · Score: 2
      Truthfully, anything that Fortran can do, C can do better. But that wasn't always the case. Fortran used to be A1 for number crunching, and thus is used and still used by many research companies.
      Well, I don't know about that. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate using arrays in C. Hate. It is probably second only to Perl for the uselessness of its arrays. And since I usually deal with complex numbers, C is even worse. Finally, the libraries' numerical routines for C aren't as good as those for Fortran, in my opinion.
      --

      Fortran programmer...oh yeah. Array math for life!

    2. Re:Not Dead, living peacefully in the background by joib · · Score: 2

      C99 has complex numbers. But I agree the array syntax in F90 is extremely neat. F77 doesn't have that, so I don't really see why F77 arrays are any better than C ones.

  27. Thump Thump Thump... What's that noise? by tommck · · Score: 4, Funny
    That's the sound of a club hitting a bloated sack of rotting protoplasm that used to be a dead horse back in 1985
    </sarcasm>

    T

    --
    ---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
  28. Re:2000? by OrangeSpyderMan · · Score: 2

    I assume with will be Fortran200X, with X being whatever year they finally nail down the final spec.

    Better make that 20XX then, just to be on the safe side :-)

    --
    Try NetBSD... safe,straightforward,useful.
  29. "Penultimate"? by Wakko+Warner · · Score: 2

    You do realize this word means "next-to-last", right?

    So, what's the ultimate fortran program?

    - A.P.

    --
    "Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
  30. Re:Yes by Schnapple · · Score: 2
    I fired up the preview Fortran.NET edition. It becomes instantly obvious why this is around and, for some, neccessary. They showed how Windows Forms and ASP.NET can work with existing Fortran code and they have some interesting examples. Mathematical modeling that was written back in 1985 is rendered on a Windows Form.

    The real reason of course why we have a Fortran.NET is because it's being done (primarily) by Lahey, and without Fortran, Lahey is nothing. They're not about to let this ".NET Thing" pass them by.

  31. Bad Fermat Joke by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 2

    I have written an informal description of the new features

    Which this margin is unfortunately too small to contain.

    --
    Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
  32. Fortan Rocks!! by Lil'wombat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Back in my grad school days (5 yrs ago) everyone who had supercomputer time was writing in FORTRAN. Just ask yourself, do you want to write a new optimized routine to compute the Cholesky decomposition of a positive definite matrix for a sparse matrix and store the resulting sparse matrix in band compressed form so that you can increase your grid size from 5k to 20k elements -OR- do you grab the linpack routines from http://www.netlib.org/linpack and go have a beer.

    At the University of Minnesota beer usually won.

    --

    Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another

    1. Re:Fortan Rocks!! by aallan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Back in my grad school days (5 yrs ago) everyone who had supercomputer time was writing in FORTRAN.

      Amoungst physicists and astronomers, anyone with supercomputer time today is still writing in FORTRAN. I don't see that changing in the near future. Graduate students are starting to write in different languages, but to talk to their superivsors (the guys with large existing codebases) they have to be able to talk and write FORTRAN.

      Most of the time its not worth their time to port a couple of hundred thousand lines of modelling code to some other language before they can add layers on top, its unlikely it'll ever be worth anyones time to do somethnig like that.

      A lot of the Java, Perl/Tk and Python/Tkinter stuff I write these days is sitting ontop of a whole bunch of FORTRAN that it would take the next twenty years to rewrite. If it works, whats the point of doing it all again? Thats no fun...

      I think language interoperability is becoming more and more important now the industry is (sort of) maturing. This is where code reuse in the real world is going to come from, rather than the current fads in code design which keep on promising more code reuse.

      Al.
      --
      The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker
    2. Re:Fortan Rocks!! by joib · · Score: 2

      Actually, these days you grab the LAPACK routines instead of linpack. But if you like C++, MTL is about as fast as lapack.

  33. Re:erm... Fortran allows what? Vectorization. by foobar104 · · Score: 2

    A large amount of science is now done on commodity intel pentium chips with gcc (g77).

    Depends on how you define "large," I suppose. There might be a lot of engineers and scientists out there running numerical analysis code on commodity hardware, but an awful lot of that kind of work still gets done on big vector-processing supercomputer systems like Crays. There are still a lot of J90's out there running Fortran code for companies like Ford and Boeing, and at seemingly every major university in the world. And NEC's SX series is, according to everything I've heard so far, selling very well.

    Don't assume that vector computers are dead just because you've never seen one.

  34. They're ruining FORTRAN!!! by vrmlguy · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I went to college in the mid 70's. We learned (essentially) Fortran 77, although it wasn't called that then. F77 didn't have a very formal standardization process, it was just the collecting of extensions that several vendors (mostly IBM) had made to F66.

    F77 was a cool language. IIRC, the original version of Adventure Cave used an interpreter that was written in F77. It is also one of the few languages that have native support for imaginary numbers (some versions of APL did as well).

    Looking at the summary of changes, I suspect that they've finally messed up the things that made FORTRAN (or at least F77) great. The addition of pointers stands an excellent chance of rendering code un-optimizable, and I fear that adding OO features is an even bigger mistake. I would have liked to have seen Unicode support and exception handling, and that's about it.

    --
    Nothing for 6-digit uids?
    1. Re:They're ruining FORTRAN!!! by aallan · · Score: 2

      Looking at the summary of changes, I suspect that they've finally messed up the things that made FORTRAN (or at least F77) great. The addition of pointers stands an excellent chance of rendering code un-optimizable, and I fear that adding OO features is an even bigger mistake.

      FORTRAN went OO during with Fortran90 and pointers were added with Fortran95, although for anyone used to C pointers, Fortran95 pointers are (erm) pretty wierd...

      Al.
      --
      The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker
    2. Re:They're ruining FORTRAN!!! by Eric+Smith · · Score: 3, Insightful
      IIRC, the original version of Adventure Cave used an interpreter that was written in F77.
      Some ports might have used F77, but ADVENT was originally written on a DECsystem-10 using Fortran-10, which was DEC's implementation of FORTRAN 66. The original code is available in the Interactive Fiction Archive; there are two versions ever so slightly different, adv350-pdp10.tar.gz and advent-original.tar.gz. I'm not certain which was earlier, though one of them has some messages in mixed case, so that is probably later. All others can be traced back to one of these.

      String handling in FORTRAN 66 was not very portable. On the DECsystem-10, five ASCII characters were stored per word. This was the biggest hassle in porting to another platform.

    3. Re:They're ruining FORTRAN!!! by vrmlguy · · Score: 2
      Yeah, you're probably right about ADVENT using Fortran-10. I remembered that it used extensions to F66, and assumed that it was F77. After I had posted, I wished that I had mentioned DEC along with IBM as contributing ideas to F77. I compiled ADVENT on an IBM mainframe using F77, and it required minimal hacking to get it to run.

      ADVENT was pretty portable, though, in spite of the string handling. For player commands, ADVENT used it's own, non-ASCII, character encoding that fit six characters into a pair of 16-bit values. This meant that even with the source code, you couldn't make heads or tails of the table containing all the verbs, so you didn't know what actions were available to you.

      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
    4. Re:They're ruining FORTRAN!!! by Eric+Smith · · Score: 2
      For player commands, ADVENT used it's own, non-ASCII, character encoding that fit six characters into a pair of 16-bit values.
      You must have started from a PDP-11 port, because that was a common encoding on the PDP-11 (called "RAD50"), but the original PDP-10 version certainly didn't store them that way. They were stored five seven-bit ASCII characters to a machine word (36 bits), which is why the player commands had only five significant characters and the game couldn't tell "NORTHEAST" from "NORTH" (you had to use "NE").

      The PDP-11 version was probably more portable than the original PDP-10 version.

  35. Re:2000? by iabervon · · Score: 2

    That's the difference between C and Fortran. The group working on C9X, in a sudden burst of work, completed the standard in the middle of December 1999. Of course, they're still working on the details, but they got an official release out in the right decade.

  36. Re:Do we care? by sbaker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I work in the flight sim business. I can assure you that every one of the 2 million plus lines of code written by my team over the last ten years was in C++ and for the ten years before that it was in C or Ada.

    30 year old code will probably be in FORTRAN.

    We do still have legacy code in Fortran. Mostly stuff we inherited from other simulators - and mostly in the area of simulating the actual flight dynamics. That stuff is hard to rewrite accurately and is a *tiny* fraction of a typical multi-million-lines-of-code simulator.

    HOWEVER (dragging this screaming and kicking back on-topic) there is absolutely no need to invent FORTRAN 2000 just so we can run legacy code. If it's legacy code, that's because we can't/won't rewrite it - so why would we need a new revision of the language?

    All that the world needs is a good way to call FORTRAN functions from within C++ - and we already have that.

    FORTRAN should just be left to die peacefully.

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
  37. FO^H/RTRAN, FORTRAN, Fortran, ForTran??? by dpbsmith · · Score: 2

    But what about the BIG question?

    When and why did the name change from "FORTRAN" (all uppercase, preferably with a slash across the letter O) to "Fortran" (mixed-case)?

    Indeed, since the name means Formula Translation, if the name was to be changed at all, why was it not changed to ForTran (with an internal upper-case T?)

    Those familiar with the world of M, I mean MUMPS, I mean M[UMPS], where the name of the language either was or was not officially changed, and the language is or is not properly referred to by both names or by one or by the other, and where M is either an officially sanctioned abbreviation, an officially sanctioned alternate name, or the One True name, or was changed in the ANSI spec but not the ISO spec... or not... will appreciate the importance of such issues.

    Particularly since in these modern days it's pretty safe to assume that your PC's printer is equipped with a full 192-character chain.

  38. Hmm, I recognize those people by Leto2 · · Score: 2

    I think I recognize some of these names on the Fortran 2000 committee, they were on another committee that was coming up with designs to retrofit Model-T's with solar cells

    --
    <grub> Reading /. at -1 is like driving through Cracktown in a convertible that is stuck in 1st
  39. Re:Then again by gorilla · · Score: 2

    But Plankalkul wasn't implemented until 2000. I don't think it would be possible to implement it on the late 50's computers, and certainly not on the Z1/Z2/Z3 or other 1945 computers. Without an implementation, it's not a computer language, it's just math.

  40. Baz's Rule Of Programming Languages... by Bazman · · Score: 2

    says...

    "Never use a programming language that is older than you are".

    So I'm just about okay with Fortran 66....

    Baz

  41. Re:Why I write science in C not fortran by foobar104 · · Score: 2, Troll

    Because C is also a very parallelizable language with hooks for both MPI and openMP and even PVM if you really want.

    You don't get it. A high-quality Fortran compiler will unroll your inner loops for you, creating an executable that will spread your non-dependent iterations across multiple CPUs. This happens automatically. SGI's old Fortran compiler, Power Fortran, was exceptional at this. I haven't used the new F90 compiler myself, but I understand it's just fine at autoparallelization as well.

    The only reason fortran is still around in science is legacy code (which is fine by me, I don't want to port it) but new code should be written in what the programmer is more comfortable with debugging.

    Agreed! Fortunately, in engineering, the kids are still coming out of the schools with fluency in Fortran. That way, they can use not only the language they're most comfortable with, but also the language that's best suited for the job.

    And FORTRAN is a niche language... If you learn C you can do it all.

    I think we're getting to the point where C will be considered about as useful as assembler. That is to say, for some tasks it's essential. For most, though, it's more trouble than its worth.

  42. I just have to ask... by jejones · · Score: 2

    ...with the sort of morbid fascination that makes people slow down to look at car wrecks:

    Does the language still have EQUIVALENCE?

    1. Re:I just have to ask... by jejones · · Score: 2

      I'll answer my own question. Yes, the new draft standard includes EQUIVALENCE.

      I guess FORTRAN compiler writers need to have some fun, and if aliasing is out...

  43. Re:damn fortran by foobar104 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    although for the size of our projects C++ is the obvious lnaguage of choice

    Um... no. The language that your people are comfortable using is the language of choice. No other meaningful criteria exists.

    Let's say there were some magic language, Foo, that was absolutely perfect for computational chemistry. It has standard library calls like solveThisHardProblemQuickly() and such. Just perfect.

    Like any other programming language, Foo has a strict syntax. It's easy to write a buggy program in Foo, but tricky to write a perfect one. All languages are like this.

    Your Fortran programmers decide they're going to abandon their preference and write in Foo instead. How many months do you think it would take for them to become conversant in Foo? How many trivial bugs will slip through in that time because your programmers weren't experienced enough with Foo to catch them? How far behind will you be at the end of the whole process?

    And that's assuming that Foo is perfect. If Foo has its own idiosyncrasies and quirks, you can comfortable double those estimates.

    There is only one inviolable law of computer programming: do what works.

  44. GCC compiles FORTRAN natively... by devphil · · Score: 2


    ...and has done so for quite some time. None of the languages bundled with GCC first translate into C.

    --
    You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
  45. g95 has been in the works for a long time by devphil · · Score: 2


    and is hosted right over at g95.sourceforge.net. Take a look.

    --
    You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
  46. regular expressions by brer_rabbit · · Score: 3, Funny

    One of the biggest additions to Fortran that I haven't seen mentioned so far is support for Perl 6 style regular expressions.

    [ducks for cover]

  47. FORTRAN#, FORTRAN.NET by peter303 · · Score: 2

    Any plans for a FORTRAN on MicroSoft NET? Look how much mileage Bill G has gotton introducing various versions of BASIC the past 27 years. I recall when MicroSoft was primarily a languages company, 1975-1981, it shipped a version of PC-FORTRAN.

  48. What a lot of CS people forget... by jellisky · · Score: 5, Informative

    ... is what FORTRAN is good for: number crunching. F77 is a perfect tool for many scientists who don't care about pointers or object oriented programming or nice graphical output subroutines or any other nice things that other programming languages have. They want something that will do some number crunching for them and won't screw up or cause problems.

    FORTRAN is simple. It works like many mathematicians and scientists think it should. It meshes well with what they really want to do in a good number of cases. The level of abstraction is perfect for many of them.

    FORTRAN will take a long time to die because of this. Personally, I like more real-time interpretive languages like IDL. But when it comes down to something that is pure number crunching that'll take a few hours, I'll gladly have FORTRAN. That's why so much in the sciences is written in FORTRAN, then the data is output and run through other programs to do the pretty plotting and further interpretation.

    FORTRAN just works, has worked for 30+ years, and with the amount of incredibly useful code still around, will still work for decades to come. Granted, I don't necessarily like some of the proposed changes, but as long as everything works like it did before with F77 code, I think no one will (or should) mind.

    -Jellisky

  49. Re:Sick and tired of IGNORANCE by Zeinfeld · · Score: 2
    We wrote a C++ shell sort (reasonably efficient) routine to sort the 30k names. It took several seconds...not bad. Our old FORTRAN code is a bubble sort routine (least efficient) and it does the same job in less than ONE SECOND

    You are not comparing like with like. Depending on how you code bubble sort can be quite fast if the items are already mostly in order.

    C++ is not the frienliest of languages to write an optimizing compiler for and if you buy the standard edition of Visual C++ you don't even get the optimizer. So comparing languages on the basis of unspecified compilers is idiotic.

    I have used Fortran extensively and in particular for numerical applications. My experience was that the code people wrote in Fortran tended to have a much greater number of bugs. There were plenty of libraries arround but the quality was mostly very poor. Even very well known packages such as CERNLIB were riddled with bugs, even after 20 years of development.

    A competent programmer working in any imperative language can write code that outperforms an incompetent programer in any other. Most of the physicists I worked with didn't even turn on the optimizer.

    --
    Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
    Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
  50. Everytime you travel by air... by Vigilante42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...F77 is what you rely upon.

    To calculate aircraft performance (i.e. can we take off with x passengers on this airfield that happens to have a big mountain at the end of the runway?) all (no exceptions) airlines use F77 calculation modules that are provided by the aircraft manufacturers.

    These calculations are, at least in my book, as close to mission critical as you can come. Do it slightly wrong and you may end up in the safety net at the end of the runway. Do it majorly wrong and you hit the aforementioned mountain...

    The modules are reasonably complex (up to 100k loc without a GUI), in strict F77 with the mess that that brings along and are written by Aerospace majors who, if they were lucky, got a 3 week course in F77 at University.

    The obvious question is why?
    - F77 is the most suitable language for the problem?
    - Aerospace engineers like F77?
    - It's an international conspiracy?

    Unfortunately the last one is closest to the truth. The modules are coded according to a standard decided by IATA - International Air Transport Association (http://www.iata.org). A standard that was created some 20 years ago and with regards to F77 of course has not changed since... Why? Because the airlines knows how to handle these modules. The I/O and behaviour is well documented and understood and to change to something even resembling modern CS practices (even F90 would be a giant leap forwards!) would require huge investments for the airlines. Something they are of course not too willing to do. There are some reason for the currently ridiculously low (in comparison) fares we pay.

    Oh, and by the way, the modules are of course not in any way certified by whatever competent authority there may exist. No, in general they prove their worth by the good old method of "service history".

    PS. I have not given up flying just because I've experienced this. All aircraft operations have a rather large safety margin built in. For the "ouch" picture above with the very hard mountain top, we would also need to lose one engine. This in combination with the fact that the "service history" criteria seems to work pretty good still makes flying safer than walking...

  51. Re:Java and BASIC by Zeinfeld · · Score: 2
    What's wrong with Java then, once you have a native optimizing compiler? It has very limited aliasing (one array can not point in the middle of another array) and garbage collection will not take much time for typical FORTRAN-style programs (a bunch of arrays without embedded pointers).

    Well it is easy enough to find out. Take the Microsoft J# or C# compilers which have a highly optimized back end and compare with a good FORTRAN. My guess would be that C# and J# would give almost exactly the same results since the two languages have the same feature set. C# might have an edge since it is slightly newer and was designed by the people who wrote the back end of the Visual C++ compiler which is the base of CLR.

    I would expect both to outperform FORTRAN.

    The reason is that FORTRAN gives very little assistance to an optimizer. OK loops can be unrolled. Guess what? every optimizing C compiler does the exact same thing.

    The only reason why FORTRAN might be faster is the static allocation model. This means that pointers can effectively be derefferenced at compile time. But that does not provide a huge advantage for today's processors.

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  52. Why, why, why...? by dargaud · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I partially make a living by debugging scientific fortran code. I cannot understand why they finally 'enhance' fortran with things that have existed in other languages for decades. Not that it doesn't need them (dynamic allocation of arrays... I just had to extend the kernel stack to 2Gb so we could run some old badly written fortran code).

    No, what I don't understand about keeping fortran alive is because its users (scientists mostly) are people who refuse to use something new and better. They all use fortran 77 the way they learnt it through a 10 hour university course. I tried to get some of my users to use fortran 90 or 95 and failed pathetically. As my boss said: "if you think you have a clever programming trick, forget it !"

    So what is the point of extending fortran with polymorphism and such ? They'll never use it. As a pro developper I'll never use it (I have the right tools already: C/C++/Java/assembler/perl depending on the job).

    What is the point ? So they can sell expensive compilers with the new Fortran2000 sticker on it that nobody will ever use ? Marketting gimmick ?

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  53. If I use fortran 2000.... by Kaz+Riprock · · Score: 2
    Does that mean I finally have a command called:
    f00!

    This r0x0rs, d00d!

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  54. Re:damn fortran by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 2

    Its probably more appropriate to tell it to:

    C Tell FORTRAN to goto Hell

    goto 666

    or if you're into phone keypads:

    goto 4335

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  55. Re:Do we care? by Pedrito · · Score: 2

    If you BOTHER TO READ the report of the navigation failure of the Mars climate orbiter...

    If you'd BOTHER TO GET A SENSE OF HUMOR...

  56. Re:Do we care? by sbaker · · Score: 2

    You are talking about modern FORTRAN though - the legacy FORTRAN that we have is all >30 years old. I could be wrong - but I don't think all the fancy features you refer to existed back then.

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  57. Re:Then again by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 2

    I don't understand your distinction between computer languages and math, especially the part about "Without an implementation". I've never seen anything suggesting that an implementation is necessary for something to be considered a "language".

    -Paul Komarek

  58. Re:Java and BASIC by Paul+Komarek · · Score: 2

    I'm not so sure about your last claim:

    "But that does not provide a huge advantage for today's processors."

    With the increasing disparity between cpu speed and memory latency and bandwidth, things which affect cache behavior can produce large performance gains or penalties. Dereferencing pointers at compile time is one such thing.

    If the cpu-memory mismatch continues to grow, I expect that optimizers for Fortran will be able to make better use of cache than optimizers for (say) C or Java. Unless, of course, all these extensions to Fortan screw up the advantages. ;-)

    -Paul Komarek

  59. Damn! by Peter+Harris · · Score: 2

    Too late for this report to be nominated for the CS section of the 2002 Ig Nobel awards.

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  60. Re:Do we care? by T.E.D. · · Score: 2
    > FORTRAN should just be left to die peacefully.

    I strongly believe this is the guy who is right

    I'd advise against that; he's wrong. He's probably just transferring his desire to avoid using Fortran into an unsupported belief that it will go away.

    I certianly have similar desires myself (I took Fortran off my resume 10 years ago so I'd never be the poor sap stuck using it). But I don't share his delusions.

    I question the claim that Fortran compilers are somehow inherently good at optimizing code.
    :-)
    I took a graduate level course in compiler optimization, where I got to question that claim almost daily.

    What I discovered from the course is that Fortran compilers are really good at optimizing, in general. There are two main reasons for this.

    Reason one is some inherent qualities of the language, chiefly its lack of pointers. When your language supports pointers in the unrestricted way C++ and C do, suddenly any object can be aliased at any time. This makes it damn tough to optimize things.

    However, languages that are strict with pointer usage, and stricter than Fortran on the results of other constructs, could in theory be even easier to optimize than Fortran. Ada, Java, and the various Wirth languages come to mind.

    But theory really matters little. Fortran's big advantage over those other languages is in practice. Fortran users are doing hairy numerical processing, where they need all the optimization possible, and are willing to pay for it. Thus extreme efforts get put into optimizing Fortran compilers, and most of the research into optimization theory is funded by Fortran users.
  61. Re:Java and BASIC by Tony-A · · Score: 2

    If loop unrolling thrashes the cache, ....
    I think execution speed is rather faster than memory access.