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Australian Anti-Spammer Wins Court Case

An anonymous reader writes "The Australian court system upheld the right of internet activists to campaign against junk email in a landmark decision today. Story from The Australian." Sounds like the spammers (T3 Direct, of Perth) were justly told off.

156 comments

  1. "lost income" by sssmashy · · Score: 5, Funny
    T3 claimed the action cost at least $82,000 in lost income and the cost of repairing its computer systems.

    Apparently, as a result of Mr McNicol's actions, 153 penis enlargers and 23 fake degrees never managed to get sold. The bastard.

    1. Re:"lost income" by Patersmith · · Score: 1

      Waitaminnit...are they selling Penis Mightiers??!??

    2. Re:"lost income" by macdaddy357 · · Score: 2

      T3's business model: 1. Sue anti-spammer for lost income. 2. ??? 3. Profit.

      --
      How ya like dat?
    3. Re:"lost income" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Waitaminnit...are they selling Penis Mightiers??!??

      Not that T3's Wayne Mansfield, aka- "Whine Spamfield", aka- "the Wayne-cur" needs one. He's pretty much the world's largest prick right now.

  2. T3Direct's new seminar lineup... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    1. "How to Lose a Lawsuit" (Oct. 17th)

    2. "Sending Commercial Email for Fun and Disprofit" (Oct. 19th)

    3. "Abusing Educational Institutions' APNIC Records" (Oct. 24th)

    4. "How to be a TOTALLY ANNOYING SELF-RIGHTEOUS ASSHOLE SPAMMER" (Every day at 2PM)

    Let's see people attend these T3Direct seminars :)

    1. Re:T3Direct's new seminar lineup... by clifforch · · Score: 1

      Go SPEWS go!
      Attaboy!

      I am not spews, as the rest of the world (with the assistance of nanae*) can verify.
      But if I ever meet a spews admin I will give them all the (meagre) computing resources and beer I can afford.

      The fight against spam will be won through education of ISP's, sysadmins and users and it will be won.

      *usenet:news.admin.net-abuse.email

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA the hot grits profit you!
  3. Fund-raising for anti-spam offensive by heretic108 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I heard of someone who's intent on raising several million dollars to finance the hardware, software, connectivity and legal expenses of a new generation international spam-fighting network.

    Seems he'll meet his funding targets, after being promised a substantial sum from a former government dignitary from Nigeria...

    --
    -- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
    1. Re:Fund-raising for anti-spam offensive by Ack_OZ · · Score: 1

      >Seems he'll meet his funding targets, after being promised a substantial sum from a former government dignitary from Nigeria

      And if that fails, he can always start emailing people at random...

    2. Re:Fund-raising for anti-spam offensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget to leave them with your back accout number, ss number, and sign over the birth rights to your first male heir.

  4. Legal costs? by dpt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I hope the spammer was forced to pay the defendant's legal costs. The article doesn't say. Especially since the plaitiff was suing for the cost of "replacing" the computer system (according to the original article IIRC), and that is plainly ridiculous.

    Also, an important point is that the court found that the plaintiff did not show that contacting SPEWS was illegal. This is good news (in Australia at least), as if the case had hinged on whether he contacted a blacklister or not, it would have a chilling effect on free speech and also anti-spam efforts - you wouldn't even be allowed to tell a third party that you received some email that might, possibly, be spam.

    1. Re:Legal costs? by nosfucious · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I gather that there was only a Court-based order, which prevents further Court action.

      This wasn't a lawsuit in the American sence, but more like a "cease and decist" order.

      It would be unlikely that the plaintiff would have had to pay costs.

      In a defamation (sp?) action a few years ago, one of the lower courts held that there was an "Implied right of free speach" in the Australian constitution. I can't recall if this was upheld in the Supreme Court. (Free speach regarding complaints against a federal politician). I think that the arguments about reporting spam would fall under this category and there would be a right to report spam to a 3rd part.

      I am not a Lawyer (don't it show!), I don't even play one of TV.

      --
      Q:I was listening to a CD in Grip and it sounded horrible! What's up? A:Perhaps you are listening to country music
    2. Re:Legal costs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I hope the spammer was forced to pay the defendant's legal costs. The article doesn't say.

      In Australia, loser normally pays the legal bills of the winner. This is especially true when the suit is deemed by the judge to be a waste of the court's time.

      Disclaimer: IANAL. Judges have the power to order the loser to pay legal bills, but aren't required to. They usually do unless the case is fairly close. Oh, and law firms that make up insane charges (in order to profit from this) get severely rapped over the knuckles.

    3. Re:Legal costs? by PerryMason · · Score: 5, Informative

      IAAALS (I Am An Australian Law Student) and can state the following.

      - The decision was on summary judgment, which means that the court simply decided that the plaintiff's was unable to make his case.

      - The plaintiffs case was that the defendant had contacted SPEWS and placed the plaintiff on the blacklist and that being placed on the blacklist had cost him economically.

      - Being unable to prove that the defendant had in fact contacted SPEWS, the rest of the claim is moot.

      - The decision on summary judgment is NOT binding in any way shape of form on any case that comes up in the future.

      - The decision as to whether its illegal to place someone on a blacklist such as SPEWS was not decided. If the plaintiff was able to prove that the defendant HAD contacted SPEWS, then the claim might not have been dismissed on summary judgment. THEN it might have allowed the court to decide if it is illegal put someone on a blacklist.

      - Australia is a 'common law' country. A judgement in an Australian jurisdiction such as Western Australia would only ever been seen as 'persuasive precedence' in any jurisdiction besides WA.

      - Western Australia is one of 2 states in Australia who have a codified legal system. This means that the common law is generally superseded by specific coded laws.

      The long and the short of the above points is that there was absolutely nothing in the decision which can have any impact on any other spammers activities anywhere in the world. For starters it was on summary judgement, so in a common-law state it wouldnt hold any precedence. It was in a codified state in which the decision was made, so even if it was decided on the facts, the decision would have no more than persuasive precedence anywhere else. Finally, because WA is codified, the persuasive precedence would hold less sway than precedence from another jurisdiction.

      So the decision means squat.

      --
      "I'm tired of all this 'Aren't humanity great' bullshit. We're a virus with shoes" - Bill Hicks
    4. Re:Legal costs? by cthugha · · Score: 5, Informative

      IAAALS (I Am An Australian Law Student)...

      Ditto

      Australia is a 'common law' country. A judgement in an Australian jurisdiction such as Western Australia would only ever been seen as 'persuasive precedence' in any jurisdiction besides WA.

      I would put a rider on that. Unlike the United States, the common law in Australia is unified: every state has the same common law. Every state in the US, on the other hand, has its own version of the common law as developed by that state's courts. This difference is a result of the expanded jurisdiction of the High Court of Australia as compared to the US Supreme Court. The High Court is a general court of appeal, having appellate jurisdiction over just about anything in addition to its original and appellate jurisdiction over constitutional and federal matters. The US Supreme Court only has jurisdiction over federal and constitutional matters, and only decides state cases as they conflict with some constitutional provision or principle. The creation of such an integrated judicature administering a single common law results in the courts of each state having a lot more respect for the judgments of courts in other states. However, this case wouldn't appear to establish any new rule or principle, so it can't be relied on as precedent for anything.

      Western Australia is one of 2 states in Australia who have a codified legal system. This means that the common law is generally superseded by specific coded laws.

      Really? I was aware that the criminal law of WA, as well as that of Queensland (my home state) and Tasmania, was codified, but that the rest of the common law has been either left intact or modified, not extinguished or supplanted, by statute.

      Finally, although I haven't seen the judgment, I would also add that in Australia costs usually follow the event (i.e. whoever loses generally has to pay the other side's costs as well as their own legal bills), so it's likely the plaintiffs would have had costs awarded against them.

    5. Re:Legal costs? by cthugha · · Score: 5, Informative
      Really? I was aware that the criminal law of WA, as well as that of Queensland (my home state) and Tasmania, was codified, but that the rest of the common law has been either left intact or modified, not extinguished or supplanted, by statute.

      I just had a quick flick through the judgment as kindly linked to in Eggplant's post. The case was decided on common law grounds, the registrar considering the two torts of interference with business or trade interests (which isn't yet recognized in Australia) and interference with contractual relations. Defamation was knocked out by reference to a provision in the WA Criminal Code that bars accurate statements from being defamatory.

      So the case was decided on the common law after all. That's a relief, if WA was entirely code-based, I should have known about it. Western Australia may have been nearly colonized by the French, but that doesn't mean it has to adopt their heathen legal system :-P.

    6. Re:Legal costs? by jesco · · Score: 0, Redundant
      So the case was decided on the common law after all. That's a relief, if WA was entirely code-based, I should have known about it. Western Australia may have been nearly colonized by the French, but that doesn't mean it has to adopt their heathen legal system :-P.
      We don't want to start a debate on this one, do we? Although it would sure be fun ;)
    7. Re:Legal costs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So WA could have been an Australian Quebec then?

    8. Re:Legal costs? by TekPolitik · · Score: 2
      In a defamation (sp?) action a few years ago, one of the lower courts held that there was an "Implied right of free speach" in the Australian constitution. I can't recall if this was upheld in the Supreme Court. (Free speach regarding complaints against a federal politician). I think that the arguments about reporting spam would fall under this category and there would be a right to report spam to a 3rd part.

      It wasn't a lower court, it was the High Court. And it only protects political speech - reporting spam is not political.

    9. Re:Legal costs? by KITT_KATT!* · · Score: 1

      Not true. The court not only found that there was no evidence that McNicol had contacted SPEWS, they also found that doing so would not be illegal.

    10. Re:Legal costs? by KITT_KATT!* · · Score: 1

      McNicol's lawyers were representing him pro bono so he did not incur any legal fees.

  5. Re:Which is better: by compuguy · · Score: 2, Funny

    i hate all those damn e-mails like 'hey.. i missed you yesterday' and i find out its just porn. i thought a girl actually was thinking about me! =(

  6. SPEWS is just a list. by wolfpaws · · Score: 5, Funny

    And news.admin.net-abuse.email is always an entertaining and informative Usenet newsgroup to read.

    Just fire up your newsreader and...

    Oh, look. New porn in the alt.binaries.pictures.erotica groups...

    Never mind!

    1. Re:SPEWS is just a list. by ShaunC · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here is a link to relevant T3Direct threads in NANAE, sorted by reverse date. Read 'em and weep. Congratulations, Joey!! This is one hell of a precedent, even if it is over there in .au :)

      Shaun

      --
      Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
    2. Re:SPEWS is just a list. by wolfpaws · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hopefully, the Australian government and businesses will take new notice about their nation's reputation as a SPAM haven.

      I've read NANAE threads where my fellow American Sysadmins have configured their mail servers to deny/bounce/devnull any e-mail with the .au domain suffix anywhere in the headers...As well as blacklisting entire IP blocks registered in Australia.

      Oy...Aussie SPAM is almost as annoying as the crap we get from China and Russia!

    3. Re:SPEWS is just a list. by downundarob · · Score: 3, Funny

      Oy...Aussie SPAM is almost as annoying as the crap we get from China and Russia!

      But at least its English

    4. Re:SPEWS is just a list. by caluml · · Score: 1

      But at least its English, mate :o)

    5. Re:SPEWS is just a list. by Saint+Aardvark · · Score: 3, Informative
      Here's a website for this case:

      http://t3-v-mcnicol.ilaw.com.au/

      And another:

      http://t3-v-mcnicol.ilaw.com.au/

    6. Re:SPEWS is just a list. by raju1kabir · · Score: 1
      Here's a website for this case:
      http://t3-v-mcnicol.ilaw.com.au/ [ilaw.com.au]
      And another:
      http://t3-v-mcnicol.ilaw.com.au/ [ilaw.com.au]

      The second one is much better than the first.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    7. Re:SPEWS is just a list. by fuzza · · Score: 1

      Here's a website for this case:

      http://t3-v-mcnicol.ilaw.com.au/

      And another:

      http://t3-v-mcnicol.ilaw.com.au/


      Hey! Are you trying to /. our poor server TWICE??

      Unless you got to the two different sites via our mirrored DNS setup, but then messed up the links...

      /me watches the MRTG output :)

      --
      Can't find examples of evolution? No matter, neither could Dawkins
    8. Re:SPEWS is just a list. by Saint+Aardvark · · Score: 2
      Sigh...I swear I copied two separate, different links from Google...

      /me hangs head in shame :-)

    9. Re:SPEWS is just a list. by mvpll · · Score: 1
      with the .au domain suffix anywhere in the headers

      Cool, at least this ensures us poor .au's don't receive anything from such ivory tower morons.

      Oi...Yank SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS is just as annoying as the crap from anywhere else! Hmm, what is this "Post Anonymously" button for?
  7. What if it had been in America? by FyRE666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You know, every story I read about the Australian laws/trials on here, the more respect I have for their country. Not so the US - I'd expect this case to drag on far longer, and the spammer to win, based on past articles. Corporation/company vs little guy = little guy gets screwed...

    1. Re:What if it had been in America? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yeah, me too.

      But every time I hear about how badly a videogame or feature film was edited down to appease their "dragonian" [sic - dorky reference to a /. thread from weeks ago], moralistic censor board, I lose that tiny little bit of respect for the dingo eating bastards.

      Eh, apples, oranges, I know, I know. I'm not really trying to troll, my point is just that there are tradeoffs everywhere you turn in life.

    2. Re:What if it had been in America? by GigsVT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Be careful, their constitution offer no guarantees of freedom. Their freedom is solely by the good graces of their government, and could be removed at any time.

      As opposed to the US, where our constitution guarantees freedom, and congress just ignores it most of the time. :)

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    3. Re:What if it had been in America? by svvampy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Don't let one isolated case fool you, the courts here are as randomn and ineffectual as elsewhere in the "civilised" world.

    4. Re:What if it had been in America? by marcushnk · · Score: 1, Funny

      Kangaroo eating bastards, thank you.

      Dingo's are just too tough...

      --
      "Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
    5. Re:What if it had been in America? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      nah, you dont live here, so you dont see everythign else that happens. i live here, and let me tell you, i would rather not be.

      not that i've yet found any other country that i'd like to live in, but every country has got its fucked-up parts :)

      spend a week reading news from .au and then we'll see if you still have more respect for this country. fuckwit leaders making fucked up policies that have fucked up results. same thing here as everywhere, but here i am affected by it more.

      but with the whole bali thing, i dont think there's gonna be much else on the news here - you may not have heard of it yet - i mean, i dont think any americans died in it.

    6. Re:What if it had been in America? by irc.goatse.cx+troll · · Score: 1

      But just how much spam is fom big corperations?
      I'd say the majority of spam is from Pr0n sites and other single person buisnesses that the court would already look down on. You're odds arnt that bad really, considering the Fax.com lawsuit resulting[1] in them being liable for $5.38 Million in damages.

      [1] after fact checking this, I found that a judge ordered the FCC to stop persuing this, but it is still a good example IMO

      --
      Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
    7. Re:What if it had been in America? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Australian constitution does guarantee freedom of religion. Freedom of speech is an issue, do a search for interesting and relevant cases here

    8. Re:What if it had been in America? by kubrick · · Score: 2

      Look into our human rights record before you go buying any plane tickets.

      --
      deus does not exist but if he does
    9. Re:What if it had been in America? by ghostrider_one · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Indeed, after the recent "terrorist attack" against Australians in Bali, the government is already making noises that it is going to "review domestic anti-terrorist legislation", so it is almost a certainty that they are going to go and pass some more half-arsed legislation like they did after September 11 claiming that it is needed to fight the terrorists, etc.

      Australia is vastly different to the USA. Our consitutution guarentees us almost no rights. No freedom of speech, or religion, or of the press. No right to keep and bear arms. No protection aginst unreasonable searches and siezures, or against self incrimination. We have no doctrine of "fair use" under copyright laws, meaning that taping a movie tonight to watch tomorrow is illegal, because our courts never decided we have the right to time-shift anything. We have our own version of the DMCA, with penalties of up to five years jail. Australia is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live here. Oh wait, I do.

    10. Re:What if it had been in America? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well I am Australian and I have to say that at the moment, all things considered, New Zealand is looking a lot more mature than us!

      Cheers

    11. Re:What if it had been in America? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      We have no doctrine of "fair use" under copyright laws, meaning that taping a movie tonight to watch tomorrow is illegal

      Wrong! It's actually protected by law, and further extended by the 2000 amendment. Similar fair use clauses apply to other media. And see my other post: we do have freedom of religion guaranteed!

    12. Re:What if it had been in America? by ghostrider_one · · Score: 4, Informative
      Wrong! It's actually protected by law, and further extended by the 2000 amendment. Similar fair use clauses apply to other media.

      You're about half right and I'm about half wrong. I did pick a bad example (ie broadcast television), because that is protected for personal use (I goofed, my bad). However, I think you're confusing fair use with fair dealing. Fair use is stuff like time-shifting and space-shifting and applies in the USA. Fair dealing is what is defined in Division Three of the Australian Copyright Act, and is a much narrower definition.

      As an example, in the USA if I own an audio CD and encode (rip) those tracks to MP3 files for my own personal use, this is "space-shifting" and is legal as a fair use. In Australia, this is not considered fair dealing, and is therefore illegal. The Australian Record Industry Association is on record as saying this is the case.

    13. Re:What if it had been in America? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Goes to read the Copyright Act again. :)
      You learn something new everyday (though I did know about the issues with ripping here in Aus.)

    14. Re:What if it had been in America? by JHVB · · Score: 5, Informative

      You are wrong about the Australian Constition in regard to freedom of religion - Section 116 reads: "The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion..."

    15. Re:What if it had been in America? by AndroidCat · · Score: 1
      Dingo's are just too tough...

      I hear that baby fed ones are relatively tender.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    16. Re:What if it had been in America? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought both Australia and the US had adopted the provisions of the Berne Convention's international copyright laws over those of their own nations.

  8. I was at the hearing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...and I know someone who works for T3 Direct.

    Here's a juicy little tidbit: The company actually uses an application running on a Linux box to send out all that spam. It's called SpamIt, and uses MySQL as its backend.

    (posting anonymously for obvious reasons)

  9. Mixed blessing by ChrisGuest · · Score: 5, Insightful

    By dismissing the case by saying that there was not enough evidence, the judge has avoided making a ruling into whether these types of claims are merited.

    A greater victory would be if a judge ruled that spammers were a public nuisance with no legitimate business interests.

    Future anti-spammers may still be faced with the prospect of legal action, if their is sufficient evidence to demonstrate their involvement in blocking spam.

    1. Re:Mixed blessing by Brissie_lad · · Score: 2

      Precident has been set, by stating that contacting SPEWS is not illegal the judge has protected all Aussies who fight spam from this type of legal harrasment, and yes, costs would have been awarded to the defendent, although probably not the full amount that he would have spent on his defense but an amount recognised by the court based on the "standard legal fee's".

      --
      Slackware - because apt is for the lazy.
    2. Re:Mixed blessing by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 5, Informative
      Not quite.

      Judges can't just make up judgements they like. They can only rule on cases brought before them. This is a good thing.

      So why is it still a nice thing, for australians? Well it has been ruled that the none of the actions that where alleged where in fact illegal. This is even better then if he had found the accussed innocent. You can't be innocent or guilty of an action if that action is not illegal. Just as you will never have to defend youreselve in court for breathing with intent, no one in australia has to fear being found guilty of reporting a spammer since doing so is not a crime.

      So while no ruling has been made on the legality of spam, this was not the case brought before the judge and so he could make a judgement upon it, he has ruled it legal to blacklist spammers. So from now on in australia, unless a higher court rules otherwise, it is 100% legal to report spam to 3rd party even if this results in eventuall damages to the spammer due to their spam being stopped.

      Nice going australia. Lets hope it holds up in appeal courts.

      --

      MMO Quests are like orgasms:

      You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  10. /.'ed, the page loads slower than old people fu.. by SexyKellyOsbourne · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here yuo go:

    Anti-spammer wins court case
    Caitlin Fitzsimmons
    October 14, 2002

    THE Australian court system upheld the right of internet activists to campaign against junk email in a landmark decision today.

    The District Court of Western Australia dismissed the lawsuit by Perth-based direct marketing firm T3 Direct against anti-spam activist Joey McNicol, describing it as "speculative and based on propositions (the plaintiff) knew to be incorrect".

    The Which Company, trading as T3 Direct, had sued Mr McNicol for allegedly getting the company black-listed on anti-spam website SPEWS.org

    SPEWS - or the Spam Prevention Early Warning System - publishes a list of internet protocol (IP) addresses believed to be used for unsolicited bulk email or spam. Network administrators and internet service providers (ISPs) can refer to the SPEWS list to block traffic from the black-listed IP addresses on their networks.

    T3 claimed the action cost at least $82,000 in lost income and the cost of repairing its computer systems. Mr McNicol denied contacting SPEWS and argued that nothing he did or was accused of doing was illegal and today the court granted Mr McNicol's application for summary judgment.

    The court found that T3 offered neither proof that Mr McNicol had contacted SPEWS nor that doing so was illegal.

    The court rejected T3's claim that such a complaint to SPEWS was "unfounded", noting that T3 had elsewhere admitted to sending unsolicited advertising emails.

    Australian IT

  11. SPEWS by rf0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I found SPEWS.org to be a great spam fighting tool but what the T3 media group failed to notice that it is just an opinion. How can someone be wrong from sharing their opinion and then other people agree with it, in this case by using spews's blocklist. I'm glad this case has fallen the way it has as it sets a good precedent for any further actions spammers try to take

    1. Re:SPEWS by odaiwai · · Score: 2

      And there's an extremely fundamental point to be made: You *can't* contact SPEWS. They have no MX record and consequently there is no way to send them email. m There is an address in Lake Baikal, Siberia, bit I don't think it's complete enought to be a postal address.

      In short, there is no way anyone can contact SPEWS or reasonably claim to have contacted spews.

      The only way to get on the SPEWS list is to:
      1. Send spam to one of the many addresses used by SPEWS as spamtraps
      2. Ignore complaints about spamming send from those addresses.

      In short, only ISPs who persistently ignore spam get SPEWed. This is such a bloody useful indicator of email I don't want to read that I use it everywhere I can.

      If you get an email rejected by an ISP who values SPEWS opinion, it's telling you that your ISP is a bad neighbour and values spammer dollars more than customer dollars.

      dave

    2. Re:SPEWS by pjrc · · Score: 2
      How can someone be wrong from sharing their opinion and then other people agree with it, in this case by using spews's blocklist.

      The answer you're looking for is that it's an infalable system, but that's not the answer you'll get from me. This post ought to be "redundant", but somehow many people still don't know of the pitfalls.

      The most common abuse is that the "opinion" is extended from the IP numbers of the spammers to a large block of IP numbers for the whole ISP that provided access to the spammer. The reasoning for this (usually) is that ISPs won't take adction against spammers unless there is some consequence for their inaction, and having all their customers on a blacklist has indeed been effective at coercing ISPs to ban spammers.

      But the cost is that dozens, hundreds, or sometimes even thousands of innocent and unsuspecting domain names experience problems with a portion of their perfectly legitimate email. Many systems that implement the blacklists don't bounce messages with a meaningful explaination that an anti-spam blacklist was used to reject the message, and some don't even send a "mailer daemon" bounce at all. Even worse is that systems that implement the blacklists always allow their users to SEND to sites on the blacklist. The result is that legitimate businesses and orginazations can send a legitimate REPLY to a legitimate message they received, because the sender allowed an outgoing message, but rejected its reply.

      The injustice grows exponentially when the decision to trust the blacklist is made by an ISP or large organization, and not the individual end user who won't receive messages due to it. The result is that perfectly legitimate communication between two "third parties" is disrupted, and neither party was involved in the exchange of "opinions".

      So in theory, blacklists collecting and offering opinions sounds so good that nothing could go wrong. Three things can and regularily do go wrong:

      In practice, the "opinions" are regularily expanded to intentionally cover large groups of spammer and non-spam customers alike at an ISP.

      In practice, software implements the blocking badly so that blocked messages don't contain useful messages about the blocking, and in some cases packets are silently dropped. Many inaccurately blocked users don't truely discover the problem for some time, and when they do they are unable to get their legitimate business/organization off the blacklist (they're told to find another ISP... but where is safe?)

      In practice, the decision to trust the opinions is made by an ISP or large organization, not the end user. Sometimes the end user is told they are using an "anti-spam solution" without any disclosure of the adverse effects on some legitimate messages.

      Those are the things that can, and regularily do go wrong.

    3. Re:SPEWS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In short, there is no way anyone can contact SPEWS or reasonably claim to have contacted spews.

      The only way to get on the SPEWS list is to:
      1. Send spam to one of the many addresses used by SPEWS as spamtraps
      2. Ignore complaints about spamming send from those addresses.


      Or, like in this particular T3 case, put up webpages that say, "we are spammers, we spam, we want to teach you to spam too and will sell you the tools to do it."

      In the era of SPEWS and other spammer blocklists, this would be considered a form of Darwinism would it not?

  12. Re:3-step spam business plan: by svvampy · · Score: 0, Troll

    How can anyone with multiple funtioning brain cells still think a comment this hackneyed is funny.

  13. isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship? by johnstein · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ok, first off, i am not some ACLU nut. i am not here brandishing my first ammendment rights (i keep that safely in my pocket, out of sight)
    i applaud efforts to keep kiddie porn (virtual too... though i realize that virtual porn technically is probly legal... but let us not open *that* can of worms today)

    i think the library should carry banned books (like those heinous atrocities, Bridge to Terabitia and Hamlet and others

    and i think spammers should rot in that circle of hell that Cerberus pukes all over. (ok, my Dante is rusty, i can't remember which circle, or if i got the puker right.. someone help me here)

    but something seems fishy here. the company sued that one guy cos he "black-listed" their firm. the article didn't go into much detail, but it sounds as if that one guy, Joey McNicol, has quite a bit of power. i mean, what if i am a competitor of some company and i can convince Joey McNicol that their IP needs to be banned. as long as Joey McNicol is a true-blue swell guy, there is no way that can happen, but what if he isn't? i am in no way saying we need SPEWS regulated, but i wonder what some rather yucky worst case scenario - long term possible problems could arise from its misuse.

    -John

    --
    "The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and hoping for different results"
  14. i applaud efforts to keep kiddie porn ILLEGAL!!!!! by johnstein · · Score: 1

    Kiddie Porn = BAD Sunny Day in Spring = GOOD KIDDIE PORN BAD! just wanted to clear that little thing up RIGHT NOW! don't know HOW i missed that while previewing.

    --
    "The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and hoping for different results"
  15. somebody will argue.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wait for Microsoft to complain that this will result in the loss of projected earnings due to fewer OS liscenses sold.

    Less spam = less computers....right? Fewer servers; firewalls; service calls, etc. How's an industrial tyrant supposed to make a living, now that Enron's been deloused.

  16. Who is T3? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    What is this spammer called T3? I don't think I've ever gotten spam from...
    Dang it, I've got mail.

  17. Re:i applaud efforts to keep kiddie porn ILLEGAL!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ok, whatever you say mister.

    Just step this way please.

  18. A defensive, not offensive move ... by LL · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Note that this was a case where the company brought the initial action and the court was correct in ruling that there was insufficient evidence. The day when you are not allowed to legitimately complain about inappropriate netiquette (note that Washington state has some statutes on how not to spam people on an opt-out list) is the day when we might as well log off and retreat to the desert.

    What is a much harder process is for the individual to bring a suit against a spammer. Various tort actions (based on trespass to chattel) have succeeded but the prohibitive cost for individuals to assemble and argue their case makes this course viable only for deep-pocketed ISPs (who tend to bear a disproportionate share of the cost of wasted bandwidth).

    To solve the problem requires much more than legal maneouvers. Fundamentally the internet mail architecture has structural weaknesses and until schemes such as IM2000 (http://cr.yp.to/im2000.html) are implemented, spammers will always have an economic incentive in socialising the costs and privatising the benefits.

    LL

  19. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by raju1kabir · · Score: 4, Insightful
    something seems fishy here. the company sued that one guy cos he "black-listed" their firm. the article didn't go into much detail, but it sounds as if that one guy, Joey McNicol, has quite a bit of power. i mean, what if i am a competitor of some company and i can convince Joey McNicol that their IP needs to be banned. as long as Joey McNicol is a true-blue swell guy, there is no way that can happen, but what if he isn't?

    I'm not aware of any vaguely popular blacklists that would add an IP/range on the strength of one random unknown person presenting what appeared to be a spam from that IP. That would obviously be ridiculous. Do you really think they would become as popular as they are if they were that stupid?

    Either you have to be a known person with a known reputation, or you have to be one of many people presenting mutually corroborating evidence (some popular blacklists work on a voting or threshold system), or the blacklist operators have to have received the spam themselves.

    --
    "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
  20. Same Ol' Situation (SOS) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's the same old, same old situation
    it's the same old, same old ball and chain

  21. Not exactly a win? by cybercomm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The court found that T3 offered neither proof that Mr McNicol had contacted SPEWS nor that doing so was illegal

    So in theory nobody exactly won...for had the T3 posted and/or obtained the information that linked Mr McNicol to the blacklisting, the outcome may have been different. Though they have raised an interesting question as well, personally I'm interested why did T3 say that contacting spews would be illegal?

    --
    Live for the present, learn from the past, and dream of the future!
    1. Re:Not exactly a win? by DavidTC · · Score: 1
      Though they have raised an interesting question as well, personally I'm interested why did T3 say that contacting spews would be illegal?

      Speading truthful information about a company that shows them in a bad light is illegal.

      Wait, no it's not.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  22. Which is better: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a) Sex with a mare.

    OR...

    b) Sex with a mare.

  23. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Firstly: the decision in this case occurred in an Australian court, so there are no first amendment rights to be brandished anyway (and of course the ACLU has no presence). The merits or otherwise of the US Constitution/Bill of Rights are an unrelated issue - it is a simple fact that they do not apply outside the US.

    I would say though, that censorship is usually a Bad Thing - it is just that a blacklisting organisation like SPEWS is not realing censoring - they simply provide a list of spammers to people who want to be able to avoid spam. No one is taking away T3's right to send email, or especially their right to say what they like in that email - but some people would like to be able to choose not to get it.

    If a company was unfairly added to a blacklist, they are free to negotiate with the organisation concerned to get their addresses removed. In this case of T3, they are indeed spam merchants, so their chances are happily slim.

  24. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by crucini · · Score: 4, Insightful
    i mean, what if i am a competitor of some company and i can convince
    Joey McNicol that their IP needs to be banned.

    First, Joey has no known relationship to SPEWS. T3 deliberately or accidentally confused them because SPEWS does not publish contact info while Joey was visibly complaining about them. SPEWS almost certainly blacklisted T3 on their own without being told by anyone - they monitor spamtrap addresses.

    Could SPEWS abuse their power? Well, MAPS and ORBS both abused their power at one point by adding 'spite listings'. This led to the downfall of ORBS and contributed to the irrelevance of MAPS. SPEWS is under a microscope - every one of their listings can be challenged on nanae. On the very rare occasions where they're wrong, the listings are quickly changed. If SPEWS ever has a single known persistent listing that is not justified in the eyes of the anti-spam community, there will be substantial protest and a serious loss of confidence in SPEWS. So far there has never been any mystery - every listed address is linked in some obvious way to persistent mail abusers.
  25. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by johnstein · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not aware of any vaguely popular blacklists that would add an IP/range on the strength of one random unknown person presenting what appeared to be a spam from that IP. That would obviously be ridiculous. Do you really think they would become as popular as they are if they were that stupid?

    yea, i agree. but that australian news article didn't really go into detail of how SPEWS decides who stays and who gets banned. after a quick read of the the SPEWS faq it sounds like they have an automated system overseen by several admins. (news flash) and they only target known spammers and spammer friendly sites. and they stress that anyone who uses SPEWS does so willingly and knowing that some legitimate email could be bounced.

    so i suppose in this case, i am sure it's probly a pretty benign system. however, like any banning list, there are people that must make the decisions what to ban and what not to ban. yea, overt spammers get banned, but what about the grey area? also, what about the ones who get banned for no reason? (SPEWS admits it happens and even has a full page dedicated to it.

    what i was alluding to in my first post was that having any list like this is a form of censure-ship. though SPEWS says it is not:
    from the faq:
    Q10: Isn't SPEWS censorship?
    A10: No, SPEWS is a list of areas of the Internet that some people do not wish to communicate with. Think of it as one group's Consumer Reports review of portions of the billions of Internet addresses. These are the ones SPEWS members have a poor opinion of. SPEWS is not anti-commerce and fully supports the USA's First Amendment and other nation's free speech protections. In fact, the USA's Supreme Court agrees with the SPEWS view. The creators of SPEWS are its main users and who it was designed for, if others decide to also use its data, they are exercising their own rights. No one is forced to use SPEWS.


    no one is forced to abide to banned book lists either. in fact the caveat in the above faq answer closely mirrors the caveat in the pabbis banned book site at the link above that says essentially, that pabbis doesn't think books are bad, that is up to parents to decide. they just provide a list. SPEWS doesn't decide that they are bad, they just provide a list of spammers and companies do what they wish.

    but like i said, upon further reading of the SPEWS site, i think they are probly a good thing in the end, but i still think that if used incorrectly (just like every single tool and technology ever created... yea, even sporks) it could become a bothersome hassle or even, in some wacko Brave New World scenario, a way to silence the voice of the people. we could have lists to ban IP's from known dissidant factions or unpopular opinions.

    but those days are a few decades away still :)

    -John

    --
    "The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and hoping for different results"
  26. Re:3-step spam business plan: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With spammers, we all know that step 2 has to be "annoy lots of people."

  27. You DON'T NEED an expensive RDBMS to SPAM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Catch a ride on the Clue Train, buddy.

    SpamIt focuses on the low-end Mom-and-Pop Viagra, penis enlargement, make-money-now, vitamin, collectable plate, juice machine and herbal weight loss SPAM genre.

    SpamIt's target audience are those poor DSL/Cable enabled schmucks who would otherwise sell Amway.

  28. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by johnstein · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First, Joey has no known relationship to SPEWS. T3 deliberately or accidentally confused them because SPEWS does not publish contact info while Joey was visibly complaining about them.

    point taken. also to the rest, i agree, if SPEWS begins to misbehave, it will lose power. i guess what sparked me to comment was my concern of lists of IP's being gathered and distributed in legit ways and the possibility of those lists being misused somehow. no i am not a government-hating paranoid nut :), the idea just hit me as i read that article.

    -John

    --
    "The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and hoping for different results"
  29. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by johnstein · · Score: 1

    Firstly: the decision in this case occurred in an Australian court, so there are no first amendment rights to be brandished anyway (and of course the ACLU has no presence). The merits or otherwise of the US Constitution/Bill of Rights are an unrelated issue - it is a simple fact that they do not apply outside the US.

    point taken, however, i wasn't referring to the US constitution and trying to apply it in a foreign land. that would be silly. i only mentioned that little bit to let everyone know that i wasn't some civil liberties crusader out trying to rid of the world of censoring and banning anything. I am not like that and didn't want my post to be taken that way. sorry if i wasn't clear.

    as for the rest, yea, in this case T3 was probly guilty, especially since it came to my attention that i misread and Joey wasn't even part of SPEWS. oh, and i agree it's not censoring, but if enough people adopt the list, it is effectively the same as censoring... though a full censorship of those stupid emails would be nice.

    regards, John

    --
    "The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and hoping for different results"
  30. Re:Which is better: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you leave out the part where she objects and kicks your balls into the next timezone...

  31. Re:3-step spam business plan: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I think that a better question would be, "why aren't moderators required to posses baseline mental capabilities?" The answer to that question is that the pool of individuals from which moderators are culled consists of uneducated, hypocritical, group-think Cheap Software amateurs. Your next question might be, "why is the readership composed primarily of disgustingly unoriginal sheep?" And the answer to that question, dear friend, is "It's Slashdot. What do you expect?"

    I am here to help, and I remain, dear sirs,
    The_Messenger

  32. Do I have to be afraid? by kasperd · · Score: 5, Funny

    I hope no one will sue me about the aproximately 42 million spam mails that got lost in my honeypot. (I honestly didn't think anybody would miss them.)

    Oh well, if they try something, I sue them for trying to abuse my computer as open relay and win the case.

    --

    Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    1. Re:Do I have to be afraid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you put up a Spam Honeypot by providing them an OPEN relay they can "use" to send their smut, when in actuality, it goes NOWHERE... Good Idea... I wish you the best of success... we need more of these...

      A long time spam hater....

      I can think of zillions of features you can put in to really FUCK them (spammers)

    2. Re:Do I have to be afraid? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean something like the cool Java based Jackpot honeypot that fools spambags into thinking they found open relays, proxies, etc, sucks up all their spam and can even print a "reciept?" (post logs to HTML page)

  33. Haha... by BrodieBruce · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...see, I told you there were people outside of the United States that bring stupid lawsuits to court!

  34. Laff Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A farmer is sitting in the neighborhood bar getting soused. A man comes in and asks the farmer, "Hey, why are you sitting here on this beautiful day getting drunk?"
    Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
    Man: So what happened that is so horrible?
    Farmer: Well if you must know, today I was sitting by my cow milking her. Just as I go the bucket about full, she took her left leg and kicked it over.
    Man: That's not so bad, what's the big deal?
    Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
    Man: So then what happened.
    Farmer: I took her left leg and tied it to the post on the left with some rope. Then I sat down and continued to milk her. Just as I got the bucket about full she took her right leg and kicked it over.
    Man: Again?
    Farmer: Some things ya just can't explain.
    Man: So, what did you do then?
    Farmer: I took her right leg and tied it to the post on the right.
    Man: So then what did you do?
    Farmer: I sat back down and continued to milk her, and just as I got the bucket just about full, the stupid cow knocks over the bucket with her tail.
    Man: Wow you must have been pretty upset!
    Farmer: Some things you just can't explain.
    Man: So then what did you do.
    Farmer: Well I didn't have any more rope, so I took off my belt and tied her tail to the rafter. In that moment, my pants fell down and my wife walked in.

  35. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by reflector · · Score: 2

    banned book lists [pabbis.com]

    a farewell to arms?
    of mice and men?
    american heritage dictionary??
    animal farm?
    flowers for algernon?
    WHERE'S WALDO?????

    these are banned books? i find that hard to believe...

  36. Re:3-step spam business plan: by MikeDX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hmm.. I beg to differ.

    1. Send Spam
    2. Profit
    3. Attend Court
    4. Hear "you naughty boy" lecture.
    5. Pay small % of item no.2 in charges
    6. Rinse
    7. Repeat

  37. The funniest part of it all... by Eggplant62 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The website that has been following this issue from the start, http://t3-v-mcnicol.ilaw.com.au, has finally published the decision in pdf format (see it here). On pages 6 & 7, Deputy Registrar Hewitt, in paragraphs 15 & 16, says the following:

    "15 Counsel for the plaintiff suggests that it would be unfair to end this action at this stage without giving the plaintiff the opportunity to further explore this case using the interlocutory processes now available to it in these proceedings.

    16 I do not agree. The plaintiff has commenced an action which appears to me to be speculative and based on propositions which it knew to be incorrect (see my earlier discussion regarding unfounded). If not an abuse, the action is akin to one."

    In other words, the Deputy Registrar feels that T3 and Mansfield's bringing this suit forward was as close to abuse as they could get without the action being prosecuted as being frivolous and without just cause! What a maroon!

    I read NANAE regularly; this whole T3 Direct saga has been nothing but the highest entertainment to me. It's even better than watching circus clowns!

    Rich

  38. Re:How Hemos Got His Groove Back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    There may be news about t.c coming soon. I know Trollaxor's a bit busy at the moment, but he's planning to get t.c running some time soon (within the next couple of months maybe?) It's taking a low priority 'cause he's got some real life stuff to deal with, but I think he's planning to do a real good job with t.cV2. (I've seen the new site logo at least)

    I think he's got the old stories/diaries archived too, so hopefully they'll resurface. I've also got a couple of ideas for stories that I'm saving up until the site's live, so hopefully it'll not be too far away.

    BTW, is your email still T....T......@hotmail.com? If so I'll try and talk to Joe and see if he can get you into the irc channel - it's kept well protected these days. If I can get hold of him I'll mail you the info.

    PS. Thank's for inventing the AOL/Internet.

  39. Why is this good? by A+non+moose+cow · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why are we happy when something that should be handled by new technology gets taken care of by the legal system? To me all it this says is that nobody is serious enough about SPAM to come up with a smart solution.

    If it was your job to come up with a technological solution to SPAM, what would it be? Come on people, we don't have to sit around and wait for government action to "fix" this.

    Maybe part of the solution could be a service where mail servers could freely send timestamp, IP address, and maybe checksum on the last 10 lines of incoming emails. If there is a high percentage of matches that are milliseconds apart, it's probably spam, and the service could send out "probable spam" warnings to the servers that sent the checksums. The servers could then act on the info as they please. The mail servers could delay delivery for maybe 7 minutes to see if they get a "probable spam" warning (remember, email was not designed to be an 'immediate delivery' service).

    This was off the top of my head, and yes, I see numerous holes in it (legitimate mailing lists not withstanding), but this could be part of a solution in conjunction with other ideas.

    So, what would you suggest?

    1. Re:Why is this good? by meringuoid · · Score: 5, Interesting

      So, what would you suggest?

      First, I'd set up some spamtrap addresses, at various ISPs throughout the world. I'd seed these addresses on web pages and USENET, but never use them to sign up for anything. Thus, there's guaranteed to be no truth to the claim 'you signed up for this'.

      Anyone spamming these addresses gets traced and a complaint is sent to their ISP. If the same spammer sends again from the same ISP, another complaint is sent, and the spammer's own IP number is added to a published blacklist. Continued spamming leads to the blacklisting of larger and larger sections of IP address space, up to and including the entire ISP. The idea is to put pressure on the ISP to disconnect, rather than just move, the spammer.

      Obviously this will piss many people off, so it would have to be done anonymously - no contact information, either for tip-offs or for complaints. I'd monitor news.admin.net-abuse.email, and if anyone posted a genuine error in my list, I'd fix it ASAP.

      Oh, wait... someone already did that. Well, that's saved me a lot of time, then!

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:Why is this good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      laws are useful for new technologies when crafted in a well thoughout proper way.

      im against stupid laws that do nothing or hurt consumers.

      i am for laws that give me protections under the law. like the block list for telemarketers in Wisconsin. its a good law, i have to put my self on that list every couple of years and i dont get called by vynal siding people.

      laws are very good when appropriate. very bad when not.

    3. Re:Why is this good? by A+non+moose+cow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Oh, wait... someone already did that. Well, that's saved me a lot of time, then!"

      And my, It has worked so well.

      The problem with blacklisting:
      1. It easily affects large numbers of innocent people
      2. It requires active participation by everyone
      3. It does not stop spam

      I was hoping for some creative new ideas. Is everyone of the opinion that spam is not stoppable without legislation?

    4. Re:Why is this good? by schon · · Score: 2

      Why are we happy when something that should be handled by new technology gets taken care of by the legal system?

      Because spam is a social problem, not a technological one. It doesn't matter what technological 'solutions' you come up with, if someone wants to spam you, they are going to spam you.

      To me all it this says is that nobody is serious enough about SPAM to come up with a smart solution.

      Spammers lie and steal - are you suggesting that meatspace laws against fraud and theft are simply a failure to come up with a technological method of preventing them?

      what would you suggest?

      I would suggest making spam illegal.

      At best, spam is theft of service. This needs to be recognized by legislators, and codified into law. Technological 'solutions' will meet with (at best) mediocre success.

    5. Re:Why is this good? by Dimensio · · Score: 1

      Actually, the effect on innocents is intentional. The desire is to blacklist entire IP ranges because the ISP owning them is spam-friendly to encourage innocents who are hit by the blacklisting to either pressure the ISP into taking action against spammers or leaving when the ISP does nothing, reducing the ISP's revenues.

      It may sound unfair, but given that spammers are despicable scum who deserve horrible, painful death, I don't see an easier or more effective means of dealing with ISPs who have the gall to support them.

    6. Re:Why is this good? by pjrc · · Score: 2
      Actually, the effect on innocents is intentional. The desire is to blacklist entire IP ranges
      ...
      It may sound unfair, but given that spammers are despicable scum who deserve horrible, painful death, I don't see an easier or more effective means of dealing with ISPs who have the gall to support them.

      So because there is nothing "easier or more effective", that makes it ok to intentionally cause harm to innocent third parties??

      I'm just trying to keep it straight in my mind who are the "despicable scam who deserve horrible, painful death".......... for causing large numbers of users to have a harder time with their email?

    7. Re:Why is this good? by Dimensio · · Score: 2

      It's kind of like a pizza place that refuses delivery to neighbourhoods known for high levels of violent crime. Yes, innocents will end up suffering as a result but 1) pizza delivery and internet services are not 'rights', and private businesses have the right to refuse service based upon known dangerous situations and 2) the residents of the neighbourhood who want service should understand the reason for the refusal and either work to remove their crackhouses/spammers or move somewhere else.

      It is not the responsibility of my ISP to deal with another ISP's spammers. If the only way to stem the flood of garbage is in a method that keeps out some legitimate traffic, then that's what should be done. Innocents who are adversely affected should reconsider giving their money to an ISP that openly harbors criminals.

    8. Re:Why is this good? by mcrbids · · Score: 2

      SPAM is a symptom of the "frictionless society" that BillG paid a ghost writer to write about in his landmark work (2nd revision) "The Road Ahead". (1st revision didn't mention the Internet)

      So... Introduce friction into email. A "default deny, whitelist accept" would work nicely. This is being done by IM programs such as ICQ, Ymessenger and AIM, and many people use these as much as email to stay in touch!

      There's a project called ASK (Active Spam Killer) that does this, as well. Basically, if somebody sends you an email, they get a bounce back requiring them to reply.

      Spammers won't reply, friends will. Once friend has replied, all further email from him/her gets through unhindered.

      It works perfect - 100% no spam, and no "false positives". But sometimes people don't understand that they just need to press "reply" and "send".

      Laws won't fix spammers. Poorly applied bandaids like MAPS or RBL or SPEWS or whatever are very innefective, and do just as much to frustrate a valid provider as block SPAM to any noticable degree.

      To fix email, you have to fix the POP/SMTP protocol itself to include authentication!

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    9. Re:Why is this good? by pjrc · · Score: 2
      It's kind of like a pizza place that refuses delivery to neighbourhoods known for high levels of violent crime....

      No, it's not like a pizza restaruant at all.

      It's like the postal service. It's like UPS and FedEx.

      It's a matter of sending something to someone with every reasonably expectation that it will in fact be delivered as it should be. And you've already paid (to your ISP, who has paid unstream networks), so why shouldn't your message get to where you are legitimately sending it?

      You don't sit at your computer and somehow cause others to create messages and send them to you at your request. Email works nothing like calling for a pizza to be delivered. The web works like that, but not email. It's called e-MAIL because it's modeled after, yes that's right, normal postal MAIL.

      It is in fact like the postal service refusing to deliver letters and packages to a whole neighborhood because of a few undesirables.

      If the only way to stem the flood of garbage is in a method that keeps out some legitimate traffic, then that's what should be done.

      1. It is not the only way. Many other approaches exist. Other approachs generally do not harm third parties. And speaking in a larger social context about what "should be done", laws regulating spam are also an approach.
      2. Even if blacklists were the only way, interrupting service to innocent and unsuspecting third parties is not acceptable.
      The whole reason spam is such a problem is that it hinders normal legitimate communication. Errant blacklisting has the same evil effect.

      Spam causes frustration with ugly messages, and blacklisting causes frustration for people whose legitimate emails bounce or go undelivered.

      Both spam and blacklists disrupt legitimate email communication and both frustrate normal users.

      ... and finally, (out of the original order), here's what all the blacklist proponents say:

      residents of the neighbourhood who want service should understand the reason for the refusal and either work to remove their crackhouses/spammers or move somewhere else.

      How the hell is anyone supposed to do this with ISPs? You can't easily tell in advance if an ISP is hosting any spammers, and even if you could, you can't know down the road if they will in a few months, a year, or in two years. Companies change owners and management.

      Spammers trick ISPs all the time, and get booted after a short time. The blacklist maintainers (using that word lightly) are "trigger happy". They'll add a massive block of an ISP instantly. I was personally involved in a case a year ago where thousands of IPs (including mine) were blacklisted, and had been blacklisted for many months, all because a spammer operated from a single IP number for about 1 week. The ISP shut them down. The blacklist even had a note with the date that the ISP confirmed the spammer would be removed within 1 week. But did they remove the block. No. I had to send lots of emails and prove the spammer had moved on. I've had a couple other blacklist encounters where the "maintainer" was completely uncooperative and refused to remove the block (even though I could demonstrate that no spammer was currently operating in that network).

      I find it absolutely amazing that anti-spam advocates, who are supposedly fighting to ensure the email is a viable communication medium free from excessive unwanted advertisting, are willing to intentionally disrupt service of others. The effect is to weaken the usefulness of email as a system.

      Those who support the notion of blacklists do so only because they are ignorant of the harmful side effects, or they care nothing of implementing a system for the greater good of email in general... only so they can rid their own inboxes of ugly, distasteful messages, at the possible expense of some legitimate ones too.

      Why not just throw the baby out with the bathwater too?

    10. Re:Why is this good? by meringuoid · · Score: 2

      I was personally involved in a case a year ago where thousands of IPs (including mine) were blacklisted, and had been blacklisted for many months, all because a spammer operated from a single IP number for about 1 week. The ISP shut them down. The blacklist even had a note with the date that the ISP confirmed the spammer would be removed within 1 week. But did they remove the block. No. Promises are worthless. You promise to remove the spammer in 1 week - I promise to remove the block in 1 week. And my promise is exactly as good as yours is.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    11. Re:Why is this good? by pjrc · · Score: 2
      Promises are worthless.

      As are deliberate actions that waste ordinary users time and frustrate their efforts to send and receive legitimate email.

      Spammers and Blacklisters alike cause ordinary users to have trouble with their email. They're both unproductively waste ordinary people's time.

      Blacklists are arguably worse than spammers, with the exception of filling inboxes (rare with small spam, common with email worms using large attachments), spam only causes ordinary users to have to delete unwanted messages. Though fewer are effected by blacklists, the DISRUPTION OF SERVICE to ordinary users is much worse. Desirable messages are not delivered, which is far worse than having a desirable message amoung dozens of unwanted adverts.

    12. Re:Why is this good? by meringuoid · · Score: 1

      The thing is, though, email is _not_ a government-mandated public service. It's a privilege you enjoy as a consequence of paying someone to maintain an email server, and for the bandwidth necessary to access it.

      Now, if I'm running a mail server, it's _my_ server. My network - my rules; I am absolute dictator. I'll block what I like for whatever reasons I like, and the only people who can complain are my users, who pay for the service. Complaints from them might change my mind. Complaints from outsiders won't.

      So if I feel that a particular network on the internet is so spam-ridden that it's not worth accepting mail from, I won't accept the mail. It's that simple.

      In practice, of course, you can be more flexible than this; the ideal might be some web-based front-end to SpamAssassin, allowing the users themselves to set their own weightings to each blacklist and spam fingerprint, and their own threshold of spammishness above which mails will be dumped...

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    13. Re:Why is this good? by Dimensio · · Score: 2

      Spammers trick ISPs all the time, and get booted after a short time. The blacklist maintainers (using that word lightly) are "trigger happy".

      I must take issue with this.

      SPEWS isn't as slow to act as the now defunt RBL, but SPEWS does not automatically add an entry after a single spam.

      SPEWS acts when a spammer is not kicked off of their ISP after a history of spamming. One spam run that was an admitted mistake might not make it to SPEWS but when it's a clear case of career spammers whose ISP isn't kicking them offline, their IP range is listed.

      If, after a time, their connectivity still isn't cut, the /24 blocks above and below their IP space get added. After another time the list is expanded with more /24 blocks. The idea is to punish spam-friendly ISPs by making it known that NOTHING from their network is welcome if they are going to welcome spammers. Yes, 'innocents' are being affected but the punishment goes to the ISP for being spam-friendly. If the innocents get fed up, they should leave, because it's not wise to financially support an ISP that willingly provides connectivity to spammers (because that automatically means that the ISP is prone to tolerance of criminal activity).

      When a call went to Congress to regulate spam, Congress effectively said to let the internet regulate itself. SPEWS is the internet regulating itself. It's not always nice, and it may not seem fair, but spammers are a scummy lot who all deserve death and some ISPs, like Qwest and Verio have put greed over morals, ethics and the law. SPEWS is the answer.

      If you're claiming to have had correspondence with the blacklist maintainers then you were not dealing with SPEWS. There is no way to contact SPEWS directly. The only way to get any correspondence is through posting on news.admin.net-abuse.email, and even then you will never receive a personal response because all SPEWS maintainers are anonymous so that there can be no SLAPP suits filed against them.

      Back in the day of the RBL, the RBL could get legal threats and they would remove listings because fighting said challenges was costly. As a result, individual ISPs would take that remvoed RBL entry and add it to their own permanent filters, never to be removed until the heat death of the universe. SPEWS, because it cannot be sued, doesn't have that problem. It's actually a much better means of handling things because it is a central resource that cannot be smacked around with frivilous legal filings. With SPEWS there is a much lower chance that an ISP will find themselves permanently blocked by hundreds of individual blacklists because they let a spammer persist for too long.

      I'm not ignorant of the collateral damage of blacklists. The lists were created specifically to cause collateral damage. The idea is that if you are paying for connectivity from an ISP that willingly supports criminals and criminal activity (again, Qwest, Verio, Cable and Wireless, Concentric, Hurricane Electric) and your service is blocked because some people have decided not to communicate with ISPs that openly tolerate illegal acts, your complaint is with your ISP and the spammer, because they are the ultimate cause of the blocakge. Bitch to your ISP, sue them for providing you with damaged goods (possibly knowing that said goods were damaged) or sue the spammers for the resulting loss of connectivity, but do not blame someone for not wanting to assocaite with criminals.

    14. Re:Why is this good? by Dimensio · · Score: 1

      Know what? SPEWS isn't causing any disruption of your service. SPEWS isn't blocking any of your mail. SPEWS just maintains a list of known spam-tolerant ISP IP blocks, and yours might happen to be there. It's up to individual ISPs to use that block. They're not disrupting your service either.

      Blame the spammers and blame your ISP for supporting them. If it weren't for them, your ISP wouldn't be be listed. If your ISP kicks spammers off quickly (it should take no more than three days to terminate a spammer) and you find yourself blocked anyway, then you're probably dealing with a trigger happy ISP that is running their own filter, and SPEWS has nothing to do with it.

      Spammers should be tortured and killed. Until that becomes legal, this is the best solution available.

  40. Re:3-step spam business plan: by Pike65 · · Score: 3, Funny

    On the other hand - what's it costing them?

    1:"Shall we pay for advertising?"
    2:"Fsck no! Just click this big button here marked 'Spam'."
    1:" . . . . "
    2:"It's free."
    1:"Hot damn!"

    --
    "If being a geek means being passionate about something, then I pity those who aren't geeks." - Pike65
  41. Opensource often use to spam. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    A spanish person ((thor.)compuocasion.com & ventasdirectas.net) who kept trying to spam me used a SUSE box server.

  42. Does litigation mean we've lost? by beanerspace · · Score: 3, Informative

    There are a couple of recent articles over at The Truth Laid Bear regarding various techno-approaches to spam and telemarketing. And this is good. However we see that regardless of the technology, spammers seem to wiggle around it.

    Similarly, in the past few years, at least in the States, we've begun to see legislation on a state-by-state basis. Mostly to no avail.

    So if technology isn't working, and legislation isn't working then does this imply that us resorting litigation indicates we are beaten? Is taking these scum-buckets to court a last desperate attempt by those of us frustrated by this flood-o-crap we call spam?

    1. Re:Does litigation mean we've lost? by Steve+B · · Score: 2
      However we see that regardless of the technology, spammers seem to wiggle around it.

      And why the hell does the law fail to treat this exactly the way it treats a cracker who "wiggles around" some corporate firewall? (Yeah, yeah, rhetorical question....)

      --
      /. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
    2. Re:Does litigation mean we've lost? by newt · · Score: 2

      Of course it means we're beaten - there is no technological approach to spam which will work.

      This shouldn't be surprising: Throughout ACLU vs Reno we were quite happy to assert that there was no technological approach to censorship which would work; If blocking porn as one class of Internet content is technologically impossible , I don't know why anyone would ever believe that blocking spam as another class of Internet content is even remotely feasible.

      Blocking is blocking, and whether you're trying to blacklist spam or porn only depends on your politics, and I'm yet to see a technological representation of that. :-)

      - mark

      --

      -----
      I tried an internal modem, but it hurt when I walked.

  43. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by macdaddy · · Score: 2
    I'm not aware of any vaguely popular blacklists that would add an IP/range on the strength of one random unknown person presenting what appeared to be a spam from that IP. That would obviously be ridiculous.

    Sure there is. MAPS lists and Paul Vixie. :-) Not to rag on Paul. He's a swell guy. But if he said to list them because they're spammers, I'd believe him without a doubt.

  44. Re: The judgment available electronically by gorbachev · · Score: 2, Informative

    It was not a cease and desist order type of a lawsuit. It was a civil case where the plaintiff was seeking compensation for lost income and for other costs from the defendant.

    Joey's legal bill ran to a couple of tens of thousands USD and yes, the judge ordered those costs be paid by the plaintiff. Joey McNicol posted as such in news.admin.net-abuse.email last night.

    The judgment can be found at http://t3-v-mcnicol.ilaw.com.au/judgment.pdf

    Proletariat of the world, unite to kill spammers.

    --
    In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
  45. Appeals? by phriedom · · Score: 2

    Can you appeal a summary judgement? That would seem foolish, since the point of summary judgement is to keep from wasting the court's effort on hopeless cases.

    --
    Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
    1. Re:Appeals? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

      I don't know about australia but in holland there is almost always a way to appeal, even often a way to appeal the appeal. It wastes time but it also ensure fairness. As in you can't be denied youre day in court cause the judge has a bad day.

      --

      MMO Quests are like orgasms:

      You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  46. So let's summarize... by CrystalFalcon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1) The court concluded that Suing Spammer had not shown that the defendant had contacted SPEWS, and

    2) The court concluded that the Suing Spammer had not shown that reporting Spammer to SPEWS would have entitled Spammer to damages.

    Now, for bonus points and to complete the in-session asskick of Suing Spammer,

    3) The court notes that Suing Spammer has been sending unsolicited bulk e-mail, and so blacklisting Spammer on SPEWS was appropriate by whomever did it.

    What a complete kickass! I just love it when people actually have common sense!

  47. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by Stonehand · · Score: 2

    Waldo, obviously, must be using such Satanic means as witchcraft, mind-control, and either flight or teleportation (no doubt with the assistance of Dark Powers) in order to manipulate crowds into resembling him so closely while he flees into obscure locations. I highly recommend keeping this daemonic tome away from ye spawn.

    Well, maybe not. Go ask the American Library Association; according to that List of Lists, for some reason it's 87 on the list of "most challenged" books. One could argue that it's not much of a "book" if the objective is to stare at pictures and find somebody, but *shrug* maybe the daemonologie explanation is more satisfying...

    --
    Only the dead have seen the end of war.
  48. Re:Why is this good? - falacy in proposal by cdn-programmer · · Score: 1

    Suppose someone bookmarks the addresses and then gets hacked. We have this all the time. We have several info@addresses and we find that quite a lot of spam arrives with us as the "return address". People book mark us then get hacked and the address does end up being used to contact legitimate people. It is really defamation of our character that is going on here but it is presently not worth the trouble to track down those spoofing our addresses at this time.

    One day, however, I'm sure we will be in court over this because we have atourneys on retainer in 2 countries and that is a little more fire power than most spammers think is pointed at them.

  49. Re:How Hemos Got His Groove Back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Use T...T..@yahoo.com; I check it more often. Thanks for the update.

    -- The_Messenger

  50. Joey McNichol and the Spammers at T3 Direct by sakeneko · · Score: 1

    While T3 Direct (those filthy spamming slimeballs) could appeal, and it ain't over til it's over, this was GOOD news. :)

  51. Re:News coverage (OT) by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1

    but with the whole bali thing, i dont think there's gonna be much else on the news here - you may not have heard of it yet - i mean, i dont think any americans died in it.

    It was the first item on ABC News last night.
    IIRC, two Americans died or are presumed dead.
    However, my guess is that it would have gotten short shrift if it weren't for our country's hysterical freedom-sapping anti-terrorism insanity that has occurred since 2001-09-11.

    Even so, BBC World's coverage was more comprehensive than ABC's "World" News Tonight (or even PBS's News Hour), and it wouldn't surprise me if not much more is heard about this incident on American commercial television.

    --
    Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  52. FREEDOM OF SPEECH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The ultimate Court of Appeal is Australia is the High Court not the Supreme Court and the High Court has held that there is an implied right of free speech in the Constitution. The Supreme Courts are only the highest Courts in the States and Territories. There is also plenty of common law, essentially the unwritten judge determined law which forms much of Australian law, confirming the existence of free speech. A good book of the subject, albeit a bit dated, is Frank Brennan "Too much order, too little law". Father Brennan is a son of a former High Court Chief Justice and a lawyer himself.

    The situation would be different if someone falsely reported a person to be a spammer with te intention of damaging the "spammers" reputation or business that would be a tortious act.

  53. But the spammer is going to appeal by KITT_KATT!* · · Score: 1

    T3 Direct says it will appeal the case on the grounds that it sends legitimate opt-in email as well as spam and the blocked IP addresses affected that part of the business too. Full story here.

  54. Re:/.'ed, the page loads slower than old people fu by KITT_KATT!* · · Score: 1

    The slow downloading might have something to do with the fact that there is a deluge of traffic to the stories about the Bali bombings. Priorities, priorities!

  55. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read more, post less.

    It seems SPEWS only used Joey McNicol's webpaged gripe about T3 as one of many links and bits of data that showed T3 to be spamming scum.

    Why was he sued? Guess because he was a close local target.

    Gotta go now, my "censure-ship" is leaving port and I've gotta be on it! :-)

  56. Re:isn't this a bit like hit and miss censure-ship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These systems are "self-correcting", that's the beauty of them.

    If SPEWS or any other spam stop list starts listing things that are not related to the spam problem, people will just stop using them and switch to systems that do.

    I've used SPEWS (with other lists) at our servers for a year now - zero problems that were not transient. Customers love it, and when I see the 80%-of-email-is-bounced-spam on the weekends which did not cost us bandwidth or storage, I love it.

  57. Re:3-step spam business plan: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Hmm.. I beg to differ.

    1. Send Spam
    2. Profit
    3. Attend Court
    4. Hear "you naughty boy" lecture. 5. Pay small % of item no.2 in charges
    6. Rinse
    7. Repeat

    Hmm.. I beg to differ... or at least offer a differnet path.

    1. Send Spam
    2. Get blacklisted
    3. Find you can't reach a segment of the net
    4. Make less profit
    5. Rinse
    6. Repeat

    In my version the loop eventually breaks when [profit < time+effort put into spamming]
  58. Biological methods are more effective. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Two other methods, based on biological methods of pest control:

    Sending spam: The majority of systems connected to the Internet do not run SMTP servers. If all of them started running an SMTP server that accepted all email that it was asked to relay, checked it for validity and then simply discarded it, the few genuinely working open relays would soon get lost in the mass of sterile ones.
    This is the same method that is used to get rid of insect pests: flood the population with masses of sterile males so that all the females think they've bred but actually haven't.
    Receiving spam: Set up a number of bottomless mail domains (bottomless = email sent to an address in that domain is accepted but silently evaporates) and flood Usenet with their addresses. There should be no problem in increasing the number of harvestable email addresses by a factor of 1,000 in this way: which means that a typical harvested address has a 99.9% chance of never being read-- those "1,000,000 email addresses" CDROMS will only contain 1,000 real ones.

  59. There are cheaper methods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Find out who they are and send round a couple of stout fellows with crowbars.
    People don't mind being sued but object to the prospect of life in a wheelchair. Do the first two or three spammers and word will get round: spam will stop overnight and the lawyers will go hungry.
    Muscle is cheap.

  60. "Traditional freedoms need to be modified" by ghostrider_one · · Score: 1
    OK, I know its (very) bad form to reply to your own posting, but it appears my crystal ball has been right again. From the Senate Hansard (parliamentary transcripts) of 15 October (sorry, PDF file):

    Senator NETTLE -- Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I thank the minister for his answer and I am sure that he will be able to pursue that further. Could the minister assure the Senate that the government will not be using the horrendous events that happened on the weekend as an excuse to justify a further crackdown on civil liberties in Australia?
    Senator HILL -- We certainly will not crack down on civil liberties, but we do believe that, in effectively responding to terrorism, there is sometimes a need for us all to accept that the extent of our traditional freedoms needs to be modified in these circumstances. That is why we have put legislation before this parliament which has that effect. We seek to do no more to modify those traditional liberties than is absolutely necessary to attack this terrorist threat, but if ever we need an example and illustration of how real this threat is we have had it in the last few days. We must do everything possible to effectively respond to it and to protect our people.

  61. Appeal Likely i Anti-Spam Case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Article taken from here.

    *********

    Appeal likely in anti-spam case
    Caitlin Fitzsimmons
    OCTOBER 15, 2002

    A DIRECT marketing firm suing an anti-spam activist has vowed to appeal after losing its court case in Perth yesterday.

    The Which Company, trading as T3 Direct, had sued internet activist Joey McNicol for allegedly landing the company on a "blacklist" run by anti-spam website SPEWS.org.
    SPEWS (spam prevention early-warning system) runs a list of IP addresses believed to be used for spam. Internet service providers (ISPs) or systems administrators can refer to SPEWS and choose to block traffic to and from the blacklisted IP addresses.

    Yesterday, the District Court of Western Australia threw T3's claim for more than $80,000 damages out of court, describing it as "speculative" and based on propositions the plaintiff "knew to be incorrect".

    But Wayne Mansfield, the owner of T3 Direct, said he would appeal within the next 14 days.

    "We will appeal on the basis that we failed to explain the difference between unsolicited email and opt-in lists, between clients and ourselves," Mr Mansfield said.

    While he admitted T3 Direct sent unsolicited emails, he said the company also managed opt-in lists on behalf of clients.

    Mr Mansfield said the SPEWS blacklisting had blocked IP addresses, which were used to provide legitimate services to his clients and kept separately from the IP addresses used for spam.

    He said publicity from the court case had helped his business but it came at a hefty price.

    "We've had people screaming down the phone, we've had bricks through windows, it's just beyond comprehension," he said.

    In the original case, T3 asserted the SPEWS listing cost more than $40,000, including $14,000 to replace the IP addresses, $4750 to pay technicians to set up an alternative mail delivery system, $5000 for a new server, and $20,000 for lost income while waiting for a new internet connection.

    The total damages claim blew out to more than $80,000 when internet providers Swiftel Communications, OzEmail and web hosting firm WebCentral cut service to the company for allegedly breaching anti-spam clauses in their terms and conditions.

    The case attracted international attention and concerned internet users, worried that a win by T3 would legitimise spam, contributed more than $10,000 to help cover Mr McNicol's legal costs.

    Mr McNicol admitted to publishing details about T3 Direct on his website, but denied contacting SPEWS and argued nothing he did or was accused of doing was illegal.

    Yesterday, the District Court of Western Australia found there was no evidence that Mr McNicol had contacted SPEWS and in any case doing so would not be illegal.

    The court also rejected T3 Direct's claim that Mr McNicol's complaints about spam were "unfounded", pointing out the company had itself admitted to sending unsolicited emails.

    Mr McNicol said he was relieved the court had made such a "strong decision".

    "It would have been disastrous if they'd taken away our right to complain," he said.

    "It would have rendered email pretty useless - it has got so out of hand already."