Ballmer Sees Free Software as Enemy No. 1

Figures... by Speedy8 · 2002-10-17 13:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

If someone was willing to volunteer their work to replace the product that I made for a living, I would be scared too.

Re:Figures... by dirvish · 2002-10-17 13:32 · Score: 3, Insightful

He should see see it as enemy #1. It could very likely prove to be the source of Microsoft's demise. We will probably start to see M$ doing more and more to openly oppose the open-source community and its software in the near future. Obviously Steve is feeling threatened.

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FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
Re:Figures... by xtremex · 2002-10-17 13:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

I've had conversations with my fellow geeks, and we agree that this is exactly like H1B visas doing the same work as us for a fraction of the cost. Does it piss us off? You bet. Should this piss Microsoft off? Hell yeah. Asking Microsoft to become cheaper is like asking me to drop my salary so it's comparable to an immigrant. I have no love for Microsoft, but I can empathize..how can they beat Linux? Make it BETTER than Linux..in all ways. That's how we as professionals beat the immigrants. Become better, so it's WORTH their money. I just have a feeling that Linux will still rise above...just like my faith in this country to leave our borders wide open. Have a nice day

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If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Re:Figures... by King+of+the+World · 2002-10-17 13:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

In the last 6 months Microsoft's Balmer has revealed his strategy against OSS and Linux. He's trying to brand them an uninnovative rip-offs. That nothing original comes out of OSS. That if you trust in Microsoft's innovation you'll get a better product.

(which is not to say that it isn't true, but hell, as far as I'm concerned it applies equally to the roots of Windows too, and it's no bad thing)

They have also been trying to build up a community around them much more since .NET, but that's a lesser issue.

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--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Re:Figures... by GreyWolf3000 · 2002-10-17 13:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

But for most users of Linux, I believe being 'Open' and 'Free' is the #1 selling point of Linux. Think about it--you can try different distros, different software, etc., and get involved with cool communities. And *nothing costs money.* Microsoft is probably trying to snatch IT managers in such that aren't in it to just have fun and are paying to keep systems running--however they're getting cheap support from college students that come out of this community!
MS and Windows can't compete with us here--ever. They'd have to do with Windows what Apple did with Mac OS--open source some of it and build it off of UNIX, and keep it UNIX 'enough' to keep people listening. That just wouldn't happen--they're commited to the position that Windows is an architecturally superior OS. And it will bite them where the sun don't shine.

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Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Re:Figures... by shepd · 2002-10-17 13:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

>That's how we as professionals beat the immigrants.

Or you could do as Canada does and simply integrate them into your society as citizens, rather than immigrants, teach them, and make sure they do as good a job as any other citizen, for the same level of pay.

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If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Re:Figures... by aralin · 2002-10-17 13:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

Oh yeah, thats such a piece of bull. I am on H1b and its like I would EVER get a chance for my job if I would not be BETTER than anyone who they could find locally. If there would be someone able to do my job, he would do it now and I would stay home, thats how it is.

Same with Microsoft. If they would be able to do their job, there would be no Linux and nobody would cry foul. But because they suck, there is a need for external help. And are they scared now when there is someone better around the corner? Hell yeah! :)

--
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Re:Figures... by sg_oneill · 2002-10-17 14:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

That's alright dude. We'll stop coming to your country and taking jobs as long as your fucking corporations stop trashing our local job markets.
Heres one way. Stop fucking wasting the Australian agricultural sector by putting in anticompettitive tarrifs on wheat. We don't tarrif you guys (because the US force us not to).

Oh and while I'm at it. Ya don't suppose them immigrants , like, eat food and stuff. Most research suggests immigration increases employment levels.

Or do you just hate foreigners?

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Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
Re:Figures... by Jace+of+Fuse! · 2002-10-17 14:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

Actually, there is no reason why Microsoft couldn't eventually do exactly the same thing Apple did, except pride keeps them from doign it.

WINE proves Unix can have Windows Binary compatibility. Mac OS X proves that Unix can be shoehorned into a usable Desktop environment.

Microsoft proves they're too stubborn to evolve with the times. Instead, they would rather force the times to evolve around them. If they're smart, they're already working on aways to build a Windows OS on top of FreeBSD, but I'm guessing that's not going to happen anytime soon.

--

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Re:Figures... by modecx · 2002-10-17 14:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

While it may be true that MS will be spreading as much FUD as possible about OSS, I don't think that's where they will fight the war.

If I were MS, I would do everything in my power to make sure that OSS users were isolated as much as possible from the main computing public, in what they do, and how they do it. As you have said, they are trying pretty hard to build up a community around themselves. .NET and maybe to a greater degree DRM with Palladium will be the things that form their community--by forcing those who disapprove to OSS. These are the devices that will enable them to wage war; and in regular MicroSoft fashion, I expect them to weild those weapons without mercy. They are banking on the fact that Joe Sixpack, his grandma and neice, and the rest of the non-professional (and possibly some professional) computer users will stick with their systems because it allows them to do the things they want to do--easier (or legally).

If DRM legislation comes about, the sides may very well have turned. I, for one, am scared that the American Public will let it happen. Afterall, it's pretty clear that even with the outcry of hundreds of important industry leaders, the government doesn't really care about MicroSoft's anti-competative actions... This one will just be the action to end all competition.

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Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.
Re:Figures... by jjoyce · 2002-10-17 15:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

And *nothing costs money.
The important point is not that it costs nothing, it's that as long as it's licensed under the GPL, you are free to make changes to it as you see fit and redistribute those changes. In turn, you give others the same freedoms.
Stallman certainly has his detractors, but I think we owe him a huge debt for making this valuable point. Money is not the issue at all; freedom is. Too many people think the greatest thing about Linux is that it can be had for only the cost of the CD or download, but that misses the big picture.
Microsoft always tries to misconstrue the GPL as a license that does not allow them to make any money, but they are perfectly within their rights to license some of their software under the GPL and sell it. What they conveniently fail to mention is that they loathe the idea of releasing their source code, and that is why they hate the GPL. That is my theory.
Re:Figures... by EvilAlien · 2002-10-17 15:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

Or, you could do what Canada also does, provide some immigrants with all the benefits of citizenship and support of Canadian society with little of the responsibility or even the requirement to work for what they get, taking money from existing citizens through high taxes to feed those fleeing far less supportive cultures. There is nothing wrong with welcoming immigrants, but there is definitely a lot wrong with giving anyone a free ride on the backs of hardworking Canadians, immigrants or not. That isn't promoting equality. Forcing an existing citizen to finance the training of a newcomer so the newcomer can compete for the same job is wrong.
Unless I live in a different Canada than you, I would have to say that "integration" is not the hallmark of Canadian immigration policy. It never has been. We're not the melting pot, we're the mosaic. Remember highschool social studies?

--
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
Re:Figures... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-10-17 15:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

If I were FreeBSD, I wouldn't want Microsoft building off of me.

However, because of the BSD license, there really isn't a damned thing the FreeBSD folks can do to stop Microsoft or anyone else from stealing their code and closing it up.

Once Microsoft really starts to visibly sink, I wouldn't want to have to be the one to tow the bloat Windows has around with it.

I don't know that FreeBSD will have to worry about it. If Microsoft does steal BSD code, they will make everyone believe they did it all in-house just like they did with a lot of other things they borged from outside like Internet Explorer (can you say Mosaic), MS-SQL Server (can you say Sybase), etc. Nobody will remember what Microsoft stole from.

Can a real OS even hold all the bullshit Windows has associated with it?

Sure, of course it can also jettison it just as easily... Until Microsoft can kill off the last open source/free developer, the whole thing isn't over... Its not like there is a single company that can go bankrupt or get bought out or whatever.
Re:Figures... by shepd · 2002-10-17 15:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

>First of all, many of the immigrants coming here to Canada are rich, filthy stinking rich and they're starting businesses left and right, hiring idiot teenagers at minimum wage to run corner stores, 42-for-1 pizza, and cheap ass apartment buildings.

That's a very narrow view, IMHO. Can I suggest you walk by a local university and/or a college in Canada?

I think you'll find a literal explosion of new immigrants taking courses. In fact, in some classes, I've seen _more_ immigrants taking courses than "homegrown" Canadians.

What the is wrong with running a corner store or pizza shop? You have a problem with students getting easy employment when they want it? You'd rather that mom-n-pop corner store run by Pakistanis be a McDonald's run by rednecks?

And running cheap ass apartment buildings is bad? I've seen numerous articles in my local newspaper about numerous people virtually starving themselves because their choice is either an $800/month apartment or social assistance. The housing situation at the "bottom end" right now is _really bad_. There is virtually none in the sorts of places where one can actually get a leg up in life.

>They piss us off because they screw us broke

So do the beer drinking/pot smoking hippies, which, unfortuantely, describes far too many Canadians (at least to the rest of the world, no thanks to SCTV).

>and pretend to not understand english/french when we try to reason with them.

You're watching too much "To Protect and Serve" there... :-) This isn't always the way things go down. Not to mention a person speaking an offcial language can be (and often are) quite beligerant as well.

>At least around my neighborhood, they're practically all racist penny-snatchers who despise the locals as if we were wild animals.

I'm sorry that's your experience. My personal experience with immigrants I've known has been (excluding my parents*):

- One is a manager at a pharmacy
- One ran a mini mart
- One is a tool and die worker
- One is a welder
- One just finished college to be an EET
- One runs a tool and die company (not related to the one above)
- And another owns a nursing home

And I never felt anything less than welcome in their company. Some offered far more hospitatlity to me than many born Canadians. One was a lawless, greedy person, but at least they tried to keep it hidden. :-)

* Most all people in Canada today are either 2nd generation or 3rd generation from an immigrant family, or, in fact, immigrated here themselves. Currently 40% of all new Canadians per year are immigrants, the other 60% being births.

>Being nice sucks in the long run.

Being nice is what got us the 30 million people that are in Canada today (that, IIRC, is subtracting the only "true" Canadians, the Canadian Aborginals). Many of our most respected inventions, such as the telephone, the gramaphone, the light bulb, and the odometer were invented by immigrant Canadians.

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If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Re:Figures... by Greebz · 2002-10-17 15:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

One more time...

YOU ... CAN ... NOT ... STEAL ... BSD ... LICENSED ... CODE ... JUST ... BY ... USING ... IT.

The only way to steal BSDL'd code is to use it without attibution - which, so far, Microsoft has always done. Unlike Linux, with the infamous RedHat-supplied ATA header code...

If the license terms are complied with, it's NOT stealing.
Re:Figures... by shepd · 2002-10-17 15:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

>There is nothing wrong with welcoming immigrants, but there is definitely a lot wrong with giving anyone a free ride on the backs of hardworking Canadians, immigrants or not. That isn't promoting equality. Forcing an existing citizen to finance the training of a newcomer so the newcomer can compete for the same job is wrong.

But that's where the whole system breaks down. Being untolerant of the occasional bad immigrant could mean that you may not be part of Canada. Remember, most all Canadians are born from immigrant families, and that without immigration we'd have a 1920's level population within a couple of decades (I can find the stats if you'd like).

>We're not the melting pot, we're the mosaic. Remember highschool social studies?

Yes, I remember what the teacher told me. But it is quite contradictory to the truth. Canada integrates people into its society. Part of the integration is adapting to their culture, and having their culture adapt to ours.

I think a perfect example of this is my Pakistani friend. Church for him is on Friday. So, he adapts to the fact that Friday is usually a big workday by skipping lunch so he can be at church when it starts. Everyone wins. Our society integrates him by being tolerant, and he integrates with our society by working within our existing system.

>Or, you could do what Canada also does, provide some immigrants with all the benefits of citizenship and support of Canadian society with little of the responsibility or even the requirement to work for what they get, taking money from existing citizens through high taxes to feed those fleeing far less supportive cultures.

Again, I'll bring up my Pakistani friend. His family fled his country due to religious persecution (how much less supportive can you get), and now his dad is a tool and die worker, one of the hardest jobs to get filled in factories these days.

This country was formed on the backs of immigrants and I think if people would just look around rather than read newspaper reports they'd be amazed at just how many more good immigrants there are to bad ones.

How many immigrants do you personally know? The number should be at about 40%. Out of them, how many would you consider bad immigrants?

I think the difference between being an immigrant and a born Canada (such as myself) is that a Canadian immigrant chose to be Canadian. I just got it for free.

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If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Re:Figures... by rfj · 2002-10-17 16:33 · Score: 3, Interesting

Or perhaps they'll fight the war by shifting the battlefield from the too-open PC platform to a tightly locked down console - the XBox or the consoles that follow it. If they can get enough "average" users onto such a platform - where they can control what software is run - they won't have to worry about open source. Obviously this only applies to the client, but then if their client software won't communicate with your open source server what kind of market will there be for that server?

I think that's how Microsoft will really try to take over the net.
Re:Figures... by kubrick · 2002-10-17 17:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

>That's how we as professionals beat the immigrants.

Or you could do as Canada does and simply integrate them into your society as citizens, rather than immigrants, teach them, and make sure they do as good a job as any other citizen, for the same level of pay.

Or you could do what we do here in Australia, and lock them up in concentration camps in the middle of the desert.

Yes, I spoiled my vote rather than vote for either party in our two-party system, both of which are in favour of this.

--
deus does not exist but if he does
Re:Figures... by modecx · 2002-10-17 18:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

Yep.. Indeed, everyone keeps saying the XBox is a test for Palladium. I think perhaps they are correct. In fact, all evidence supports this rationalization. MS has patents in the works for their DRM operating system. Intel's working on the hardware, and AMD is playing follow the leader.

That's precicely why I'm scared; once all new computers are hardware secure*, open source will have to relegate itself to older platforms (or ones that have no hope to run software designed to be run on a secure platform). It's a sad state of affairs, and a future I think could come about.

*As the XBox has illustrated, hardware security is a laughable--unless one is willing to take extreme (and expensive) measures. Anything short of strapping a small block of C4 on the motherboard, and rigging it such that any attempt to circumvent the hardware causes it to blow the thing to hell, will fail. Hardware will be cracked; it's a function of how badly it needs to be done, and how many people are working on it. Though, in all practicality, draconian legislation like the DMCA will criminalize anyone attempting to distribute that knowledge. Freenet may be our savior after all.

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Constitutional rights may be respected, repealed, or modified; but they must never be ignored.

No brainer by el_mex · 2002-10-17 13:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

To a company that sells software for a living, how can free software not be enemy #1?

Re:No brainer by Trusty+Penfold · 2002-10-17 13:28 · Score: 3, Insightful

Quality is more important than price.
Re:No brainer by mackstann · 2002-10-17 13:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

depends on who you ask.

if you ask me, i'll tell you freedom is more important than quality, and price is a part of freedom.

i'd also tell you that i dont see much quality in MS products anyways ;)
Re:No brainer by Gorobei · 2002-10-17 14:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

To a company that sells software for a living, how can free software not be enemy #1?

For 15 years, free software was *NOT* Microsoft's enemy. Free software was utilities, shareware games, etc. These either encouraged the use of MS products, or made MS products easier to use. During those 15 years (say 1980 to 1995,) MS's enemies were exclusively rival OSes, rival compilers, rival PC networking solutions, rival wordprocessors, rival spreadsheets, and rival office productivity packages. Later, rival web browsing became important. Every one of these fights came down to keeping the standards-setting within Microsoft: as long as they owned the unpublished standards, they could crush a competitor trying to introduce a better product in any one area.

Linux only became possible due to the rise of the net: distribution became essentially free (FTP,) advertising became free (the WWW,) and user support became free (Usenet.) Linux gestated in a benign environment... by the time Microsoft noticed it ("free software - that's college kids making SpaceWar games"), it had grown to be a giant shark with fricking laser beams!

Well, the giant shark is loose now, and they see it as public enemy #1!
Re:No brainer by the+eric+conspiracy · 2002-10-17 14:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

what problems did you have?

Hmmmm ...

A JDBC driver that will only accept requests for fields in the order that the fields are listed in the database. (According to Microsoft this is a performance enhancement).

Data import functionality that returns the message "operation succesfully completed" when in fact the import failed.

Lack of text based export equivalent to pg_dump or mysqldump.

Error messages like "Authorization Failed or Syntax Error"

Use of integer for internal time format so that you can't express millisecond times cleanly. A royal PITA if your programmer is saving Java date objects as longs in the database, and you want to report them as a formatted time.
Re:No brainer by jc42 · 2002-10-17 15:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

This is a very shortsighted attitude. I'm working on a project for a small consulting firm that is developing software for a couple of big commercial conglomerates. We're doing almost all of our work on linux, with Windows and a few Macs around for testing from the user viewpoint. The free and open nature of linux means that we can get quick answers to questions (or read the source and figure it out ourselves). As a result, we can deliver much faster results than people working on proprietary systems, where they often can't get straight answers to critical questions.

With a closed, proprietary system, our clients are at the mercy of a single vendor. With linux (or the BSD clones), GNU, and other open source software, they aren't at the mercy of anyone.

But, of course, the DP departments in the big conglomerates are your typical bumbling bureaucracy who can't program their way out of a wet paper bag. So they hire a small team of hotshot linux hackers to do the job.

Computers will always need programming, for far longer than any of us will be alive. Most people will never be programmers, just like most people will never be mechanics or accountants or surgeons. There will be a lot of work for a long time, unless the economy goes totally flatline.

Having a quality OS and libraries that are open to study and modification is nothing but an advantage for everyone, both the programmers and the people who pay them to program.

Microsoft makes shoddy software, and hides the details from users and programmers so they can't fix problems. They survive solely because they still have a humongous marketing budget (and the power to bribe politicians and top management). They deserve to fail.

--
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
Re:No brainer by istartedi · 2002-10-17 18:08 · Score: 3, Interesting

Computers will always need programming

Clocks will always need winding.

Sewing machines will always need treddling.

Locomotives will always need coal-tenders.

At some point in the future, we will have the canonical set of computing applications that have been meticulously audited. At that point, they will all be Open Source because economics dictates that in the long run firms tend to make zero economic profit. The source will be open, but the point will be moot. Virtually nobody will find a reason to mod. Programming will be primarily the undertaking of postgraduates, who will produce truly novel applications about as often as difficult proofs like Fermat's are proved. Undergraduates will learn about the basic algorithms and study the canon source much as engineers now learn about circuits such as the superheterodyne radio circuit.

Now, although we are in an economic downturn, I don't think we are quite at this level yet. The current reduced need for programmers may be part of the process I'm describing, but it's in the early phases. However, I dare say Mommas don't let your babies grow up to be coders because if they do, there may not be any fences left to ride by the time they hit the job market.

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For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Re:No brainer by MCZapf · 2002-10-18 02:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

At some point in the future, we will have the canonical set of computing applications...
At what point in the future? In fifty years? One hundred? You know, the poster you are replying to actually agrees with you. It's just that he specifically mentions that he thinks it won't happen in our lifetimes. I tend to agree.
For one thing, the world is always changing, and software will have to change with it. To do that, you need programmers - or computers that can program themselves. And to have a computer to program itself, you need some fancy AI. I'm pretty sure it'll be awhile before we have that.
So, it'll be awhile before you can just talk to your computer a la Star Trek.
Computer, run an analysis on the warp field fluctuations and whip me up a holographic simulation of a rainforest. Steer the ship around that black hole. And get me a cup of coffee! Thank you.

Of course not... by ActiveSX · 2002-10-17 13:25 · Score: 5, Funny

from the no-comment-on-enemy-number-two dept.

Would you talk negatively about your own company?

Re:Of course not... by Tim+Macinta · 2002-10-17 14:35 · Score: 5, Informative

Would you talk negatively about your own company?
While this was modded up as funny (and is indeed funny), there is more than a bit of truth to this. CNet just so happens to be running a four part series on Microsoft's biggest vulnerabilities. On day one they wrote about open source. Today they wrote about Microsoft being its own worst enemy. You can check out all four articles here.

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Free P2P Backup, Windows & Linux

For those who don't understand by Anonymous Coward · 2002-10-17 13:26 · Score: 5, Informative

this story is not only on Bloomberg's website. It is on the Bloomberg system as one of the top stories when you do news research on Microsoft.

Wall Street buying Linux by jtotheh · 2002-10-17 13:26 · Score: 5, Interesting

Michael Tiemman (sp?),CTO of Red Hat spoke to our LUG last night. He said that Wall Street is starting to use Linux to run custom number crunching software and I think Oracle. Big computational farm sort of things.

a fitting quote by CoughDropAddict · 2002-10-17 13:29 · Score: 5, Insightful

First they ignore you,
then they laugh at you,
then they fight you,
then you win.

-Mohandas Gandhi

Re:a fitting quote by Flamerule · 2002-10-17 14:08 · Score: 3, Informative

Actually, Gandhi's assassin was a Hindu radical.
Check out http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Gandhi
Re:a fitting quote by Dyolf+Knip · 2002-10-17 14:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

"refuses to resist"? Come on, this is slashdot, one of the most Microsoft-hostile communities around.
Let's see. Anti-Microsoft rants on Slashdot on the one hand; on the other, millions of dollars spent on FUD campaigns, threats and bribes to politicians worldwide, blatant lying from company officials about relative levels of security and reliability (combined with internal memos about how much better The Enemy's software is), prosecuting people who point out mistakes, shutting down anyone who dares to alter a product they paid for, etc, etc, etc. Yes, those OSS developers are certainly in the same league as Bill.
Bear in mind that about the only action taken by the OSS crowd 'against' a giant like Microsoft, and about the only action a bazaar could take, is to steadily improve their product and public awareness of same. Compare that to MS, whose lawyers cry foul every time someone points out a flaw in one of their products. The GPL reads like the Golden Rule. Microsoft EULA's are a few steps away from demanding your firstborn child.

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Dyolf Knip
Re:a fitting quote by istartedi · 2002-10-17 18:40 · Score: 5, Funny

First they help you,
then they ignore you,
then you invade your neighbor,
then they skunk you,
then they ignore you,
then they threaten to skunk you even harder

-Saddam Hussein

First they ignore you,
then they change channels.

-Carrot Top

First they listen to you,
then they get screwed,
then you get fired,

-Neville Chamberlin

Now for the serious side: Passive resistance only works when the enemy holds itself out to be civilized and cares what other people think. It worked against the Brittish in India for these reasons. Ghandi knew that; I don't know if he ever explicitly elucidated that, but he was able to make enough people understand so that they followed him to success.

Neville Chamberlin worked opposite a force that was neither civilized nor concerned with world opinion. Passive resistance against the nazis was doomed to fail. They saw people as raw meat to be consumed.

MSFT does not hold itself out to be "civilized" in any way analogous to the way a nation holds itself out to be civilized. MSFT is a business, and as such it regards cut-throat competition as a positive ideal. Any appeal to MSFT to be "nice" because "it's the right thing to do" understandably falls on deaf ears.

The "caring about what others think" aspect does come into play in the form of advertising and public relations. Both sides have their wins and losses in that arena.

Therefore, it makes sense to compete ruthlessly with MSFT in the business world, and try to change people's minds as much as possible. This is exactly what's happening, but neither side appears to have moral superiority as in Ghandi vs. the Brittish. Instead, this is more a fight of Liberal vs. Conservative where both sides have a different moral base and therefore arrive at different conclusions.

--
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?

Balmer says ... by BoomerSooner · 2002-10-17 13:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

We have told our sales force to really understand that this is kind of job one, Ballmer, 46, said in an interview last week. People are saying by and large, It might be easier for me to move my Unix apps to Linux than to Windows, although we're pretty close to making that untrue.

Lol, what apps are easier from Unix to Windows? Viruses? that is about it.

I've switched all my companies servers to Linux and Solaris. I am slowly bringing linux on board at my full time job. When the shoe fits, wear it. Unfortunately for MS their shoe is a size too small.

"Windows servers cheaper"?? by sacrilicious · 2002-10-17 13:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

While Windows-based server computers are growing increasingly powerful and can cost 40 percent less than Unix systems, open- source programs have improved enough to replace Unix systems, investors said.

I totally don't get this statement. Can somebody please tell me how [hardware X + non-free-OS] can be cheaper than [hardware X + free-OS]?

.

--
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.

Re:"Windows servers cheaper"?? by aardvarkjoe · 2002-10-17 13:35 · Score: 3, Informative

From the quote, it sounds like when they say "Unix", they are talking about the proprietary Unixes. (Is that the correct plural?) That's probably a true enough statement; Windows really is cheaper, as is the commodity x86 hardware. (Of course, this is ignoring the elusive "TCO" argument, which is smoke and mirrors to the point that you can prove any price differential you want.)

--

How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?

what a shock. by EvilStein · 2002-10-17 13:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

world + dog are surprised.

unless, of course, Microsoft really means it this time and they were just warning us linux users the last few times they said this.

Although.." Microsoft marketers must rely on studies that show the cost of maintaining a Windows system is lower than that of Linux machines. Research has yet to show that people are replacing Microsoft products with free programs, analysts said. "

So we're going to be seeing MORE "studies" showing that Windows is cheaper to maintain? I'm sure they will be able to skew that towards Windows, but it's pretty hard to skew the fact that it costs quite a bit more to initially set up a Windows-based server infrastructure than a Linux-based one.
As far as the other bit? The major software that people would be replacing is Microsoft Office. I wonder how many are replacing it with something *cheaper* - like Corel's office suite. Gateway is already doing that...

Of course... by neksys · 2002-10-17 13:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

Of course the financial community is starting to "get" open source software. It makes perfect sense that a group of people who are experts in money would opt for a system that is just as good, at a fraction of the cost. These people know money - and financially, it just makes sense for them to go open source for at least some of their applications.

It's the economy, stupid! by Centinel · 2002-10-17 13:33 · Score: 4, Interesting

All the penny-pinching and cost controls in corporate America these days are the kind of environmnet Open Source thrives in.

Free and low-cost alternatives to Win32/Office like Red Hat's imroving desktop and OpenOffice.org are being looked at seriously now.

Linux may have gotten alot of hype and speculative investment in the 90's, but the current economy is where its price/performance potential becomes evident.

Not only is Ballmer scared, but Sun announced 4,400 layoffs today. The demand for commodity operating systems is kicking them in the pants, and their quality, but proprietary hardware seems less of a bargain as commodity hardware improves in price/performance.

FWIW, open source is sending some proprietary UNIX employees to the unemployment lines already. Next, it's Redmond's turn as the desktop improves.

Re:No more Mircosoft Stories !!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-10-17 13:34 · Score: 3, Funny

Yeah, I bet Microsoft really runs slashdot. They then post all these Microsoft vs Linux articles just the hurt the productivity of open source developers. I mean, if we developers are whining about Microsoft on /. all day, how are we ever going to get any work done? Actually, this "quit slashdot" guy had the idea first, though:

Quit Slashdot Movement.

Re:financial community by DrMaurer · 2002-10-17 13:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

Having worked in the financial industry, I'm willing to agree.

They're afraid of software without a final source. Yes, there are the free software developers, but they understand that linux is made by hackers.

Red Hat et al. is actually making inroads in this, because they can be a "final source".

But until the huge amount of software that an average bank uses that is seen as important for their job is available on another platform, then linux will be on the sidelines.

--
Dan

Unix is 40 years old??? Did I miss something? by Tangential · 2002-10-17 13:37 · Score: 4, Informative

Let's see 2002 - 40 = 1962.

Wow, All this time I thought Multics was in the late 60's and the first Unix came in November of 71.

Guess journalism and math don't mix.

--
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But then I repeat myself. -- Mark Twain

Re:Unix is 40 years old??? Did I miss something? by MalleusEBHC · 2002-10-17 14:54 · Score: 5, Funny

What is this 1962 you speak of? I thought the world started on January 1, 1970...
Re:Unix is 40 years old??? Did I miss something? by cpeterso · 2002-10-17 17:20 · Score: 3, Funny

that is 40 in octal: 2002 - 40 octal (32 decimal) = 1970 ;-)

--
cpeterso

My favorite quote: by wiresquire · 2002-10-17 13:37 · Score: 3, Funny

Research has yet to show that people are replacing Microsoft products with free programs, analysts said.

"Just because the research doesn't show it, doesn't mean that it's not happening", said wiresquire, from his former MS box, now Linux box running Mozilla and StarOffice.

--

So does Anonymous Coward have good karma?

This is almost TOO easy ... by ProfMoriarty · 2002-10-17 13:38 · Score: 5, Funny

``He's got it tough,'' said Walter Price, who helps manage $35 billion at Dresdner RCM Global Investors and holds Microsoft shares. ``I don't know what you do to protect your shareholders and preserve your market capitalization except to out-innovate the Linux community.''

He must be new ...

Let's inform him on some of the "innovating" that Microsoft has done in the past ... shall we?

DOS ... Nope, they bought it ...
Windows (UI) ... Nope, got it from the Mac ...
Internet Explorer ... Nope, got it from NCSA (Mosaic) ... in fact, they almost missed the Internet ...
Word ... Nope, WordPerfect was already around ...
DRM ... Nope, got it from the RIAA ...

Hmmm ... seems that Micrsoft needs a little improvement for innovating ...

BTW, don't miss the Dancing Monkey

--
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.

Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by ender81b · 2002-10-17 13:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

While I agree with your post the same could be said of linux, linux very rarely 'innovates' (i'm talking about general Unix software now) other than you know that the software will likely be secure and stable. I mean, really, what was the last 'innovation' that occured in the *nix /world? Wow, we finally got journalling databases, and we are finally starting to get user-friendly UI enviroments. Whopee. Not the most technical of people so maybe the linux kernel does do some wonderfully modern stuff but to me it doesn't look like much.

Of all the modern OS's I feel the *nix world copies the most and does the least innovation. Think of all that could be done with kde/gnome - but instead they became win98 clones until just recently. Not that *nix software is bad it just being a wee bit hypocritical.

BTW, you missed .Net which is basically a suped-up version of Java to replace MS's previous failed java-usurper ActiveX. =).
Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by jkramar · 2002-10-17 14:25 · Score: 4, Interesting

Well, first of all, I`ll nitpick out that Linux is a kernel, not an OS, and that while it may contain some low-level innovations, it certainly doesn't innovate. In any case, I'd like to point to Liquid War as an example true innovation. In fact, this is probably the most unique game I've ever played, and it's GPLd. Most games are just variations upon simple themes, and the simple games are usually clones of games which are very old. However, Liquid War shows that innovation on a fundamental level is still possible, and can be created by the Free Software community.

--

true && more || less
Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by ethereal · 2002-10-17 14:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

The problem is that coming up with innovative ideas is a lot more expensive than cloning existing ideas. Whatever Microsoft does innovate is going to cost them more than it will for free software to essentially duplicate it, because the benefit of the innovation (being the only person on the market with it) gets chipped away relatively quickly. Even assuming that Microsoft is innately more innovative than the free software world, out-innovating free software is going to be a lot more expensive than, say, out-innovating Netscape or Sun or Oracle. It may or may not be worth it in the long run to try to press a full-scale assault on free software that way - it's kind of like trying to fight back the tide. Eventually the tide will catch up to where you are; you can either head for higher ground or start swimming with the aquatic sea-birds.

--
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by zrodney · 2002-10-17 14:48 · Score: 3

what about the linux virtual server project?

or the distributed filesystem with network disk
block drivers

or the arch for iptables/netfilter, etc?

many of these things are innovative, some may have also been available
for other os at the same time or sooner, but still
Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by Shelled · 2002-10-17 15:56 · Score: 3

Think of all that could be done with kde/gnome - but instead they became win98 clones until just recently.Most of the time people here complain that the *nix desktops are too innovative and not enough like Win.whatever. The desktop I'm looking at right now has a tabbed browser in a tabbed windowmanager bordered on the right by Gkrellm displaying the weather, a local webcam and system resources. I'd be hard pressed to say my 2k box at work is as innovative.
Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by Malcontent · 2002-10-17 16:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

"I mean, really, what was the last 'innovation' that occured in the *nix /world?"

zope, postgresql, jabber, rsync, http, email, ftp, tcp/ip, DNS, distributed file systems etc. are all innovations that occured in the *nix world. I just stopped there but there are tons more. Just about every single piece of technology that you use every day come out of the unix world.

--
War is necrophilia.
Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by falzer · 2002-10-17 16:28 · Score: 4, Funny

> linux very rarely 'innovates' (i'm talking about general Unix software now)

What?! What about Tux Racer?
Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by Mignon · 2002-10-17 16:55 · Score: 3

I mean, really, what was the last 'innovation' that occured in the *nix /world?
(I can't believe I didn't see this anywhere on the page yet.) What about Beowulf clusters? I would argue that being able to do super-computing with a bunch of "off-the-shelf" PCs qualifies as 'innovation.'
Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by spitzak · 2002-10-17 18:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

That is true. Almost all real innovation in Graphical User Interface is being done on Unix and Unix-like systems. Unfortunatly none of it sees the light of day because it is "not user friendly", ie it does not look like Windows.

Just see what happens if somebody here proposes a different design for a window manager. They are yelled at mercilessly for being "user unfriendly". Unfortunatly everything that does not look identical to Windows is attacked this way.
Re:This is almost TOO easy ... by Panoramix · 2002-10-17 19:05 · Score: 5, Interesting

I mean, really, what was the last 'innovation' that occured in the *nix /world?

Jeez... are you serious? Come on, Unix is one of the more important platforms for research, if not the most important. It is flexible, it is reliable, most of the scientific community is familiar with it. And these days it is also free!

Just talking about Linux I could point you to Berlin, some guys with rather interesting ideas for building user interfaces. Or the Beowulf Project, for massive distributed computing. Or RTLinux (and KURT), for full featured real-time operating systems. How about ReiserFS, that takes database-like balanced trees to the filesystem level. Or SELinux, a research prototype of a high-security operating system.
And the list goes on and on (forgive me for not looking up links, go Google for these ones): SPIN (a dynamically extensible operating system written in Modula-3, runs on Linux), all the research stuff at Mosix (including distributed shared memory, grid management, network RAM and more), the Hello Project (an operating system in Standard ML atop Linux), all the emulation stuff which hardly needs to be introduced, and all the kernel work for supporting different processor architectures.

Also note BDS's Kame Project, an advanced implementation of IPV6 and IPSec; the evolutionary scheduler for Linux; the networking kernel stuff, including the QoS work; OpenBIOS; the User-mode Linux kernel. Look up also the "C10K problem" for an interesting paper on server performance, (and while you're on that, khttpd and TUX kernel webservers).

Unix gave you the Internet, for root's sake. How much more "innovative" does it needs to get?

Ommited Quote by Ghoser777 · 2002-10-17 13:38 · Score: 5, Funny

``We have told our sales force to really understand that this is kind of job one,'' Ballmer, 46, said in an interview last week. ``People are saying by and large, `It might be easier for me to move my Unix apps to Linux than to Windows,' although we're pretty close to making that untrue.''

A quote that didn't make the article:

We're just hoping that people aren't stupid enough to look at Linux and think it's related to Unix. For pete's sake, Linux stands for Linux Is Not UniX. There you have it. I feel a monkey dance coming on.

In other news, Balmer has admitted publically that it is currently easier to move Unix apps to Linux than to Windows. May the mass porting begin!

F-bacher

--
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."

Yes and no. It may be cheaper if you're an MS shop by BoomerSooner · 2002-10-17 13:40 · Score: 5, Informative

Like my company was. However that being said, what got me to finally breakdown and switch to Linux/Solaris wasn't the Nonexistent Security, Monopoly, the consistant Patches, the piss poor support or even the high cost. It was when trying to get my Exchange Server back up after it crashed for no apparent reason a book I was reading for help in running Exchange said:
"It is often preferable to simply backup you Exchange Server Data and reinstall, instead of trying to find the one hidden setting that is causing the error in your configuration."

That almost made me fall over in my chair.

From that day on I decided on a course for MS freedom. We now run Apache/Tomcat for our JSP server, MySQL for our DB Backend (until migration to Oracle is complete), and QMail/Horde/IMP for mail. It took a little time but saved around $6000 in software licensing costs and $5000 in new hardware that would have needed to be purchased.

So in the end I could deal with all the MS shit until the UI for managing Exchange got so bad it no longer became worth it to run MS on the server side. It was the best IT decision I've made (IMHO).

wise statement? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-10-17 13:42 · Score: 3, Insightful

Ok,
So pretty much all us Slashdot readers know free software would be enemy #1 to Ballmer. The thing is, I can't help but think that he is adding more proverbial wood to the very same fire that is burning him at the stake.

IMHO, this statement would make many purchase decision makers wake up from their MSOFT induced coma and start to entertain the notion that maybe the geeks are right ... maybe we actually should consider some alternatives to Microsoft!

I don't know for sure, but I tend to think that this is quite a SLIP up for Microsoft. It will do great damage in eroding their best and biggest customer base - the religious Microsoft fanatics that (up till now) refused to consider any other options.

_____________
Belly

Re:wise statement? by Silas · 2002-10-17 16:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

I can't help but think that he is adding more proverbial wood to the very same fire that is burning him at the stake. IMHO, this statement would make many purchase decision makers wake up from their MSOFT induced coma and start to entertain the notion that maybe the geeks are right ... maybe we actually should consider some alternatives to Microsoft!
I'm concerned that there's a more subtle and devious plan at work here. In recent months, MS has made several veiled concessions about the open source software movement and about Linux's market share. "Linux is our biggest worry." "Open source is enemy #1". "We're almost competing with Linux as we should."
*Maybe* (paranoid speculation follows), the strategy is to give OSS/Linux/etc. just enough of the limelight to put those entities on a seemingly level playing field with MS, and THEN go after them like rabid dogs.
In other words, right now, MS is having trouble fighting an enemy that they can't easily put a face on for the average corporate suit. If they raise that awareness & give shape to that face just enough so that their "torn" customer base knows what they're talking about, then they can get more bang for their buck when they attack.
Maybe their thinking is "the best way to get people to keep/start using Microsoft, is to let them taste a little of what open source/Linux has to offer, and THEN show them the benefits of staying with MS. It's easier to get folks to hate the new kid in town if the new kid seems cool at first and THEN lets you down bigtime.
Of course, all the OSS/Linux community has to do is whatever we've been doing. Microsoft is on the offensive, and while they may have a bigger, stronger team...they're showing up at the totally wrong playing field.
It's amazing how you can ramble when you're exhausted.

to innovate or not to innovate, ... by e_AltF4 · 2002-10-17 13:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

> ``I don't know what you do [...] except
> to out-innovate the Linux community.''

Hmmm - usually M$ has the reputation to out-innovate competitors by
a) including the same features "for free" in the next release of Windows
b) buying the product/company.

Where Do You Want to Go Today?

out-innovating linux by oh · 2002-10-17 13:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

From the article.

``I don't know what you do to protect your shareholders and preserve your market capitalization except to out-innovate the Linux community.''

If Microsoft can do that, more profit to them. If they can provide the products people want and can afford, then they have nothing to worry about.

The problem is that they are a monolithic company. They have an official policy, some one decides to run a project, and throws programmers at it. They can make large scale (if not reliable) software quickly because they can afford to pay hundreds of programmers.

What they can't emulate is the ideas that come from a grass-roots community. If any one person has an idea, they can start to work on it. They have a huge body of software to research and re-use code from, and if they can demonstrate something that other people find useful, they can quickly gather programmers to the project.

Because it starts small, it may take longer to finish. But because it starts small, hundreds of ideas can be quickly tested, with the best being developed and improved by the community.

Haw can one company out-innovate that?

--
Democracy isn't about no one telling you what to do. It's about everyone telling you what to do.

Emperically logical by Ghoser777 · 2002-10-17 13:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

No it's not. The jump in logic may not be obvious, but it is valid. This is essentially the way that India's independence from Britain came about, by passive resistance. When the British people saw all the horrible things that were being done to non-violent Indians, support for continued colonizations quickly dwindled. So, after the British fought, the Indians won.

It works here to - as soon as Microsoft starts fighting Linux, guess what gets free advertising? Even more, anyone in the business community can smell blood when they see one company getting so worked up over a competitor. If Linux wasn't the real deal, Microsoft wouldn't have to worry about it. So essentially, Microsoft fights Linux, Linux wins (in the sense that it gains larger name recognition, and hopefully, larger deployment).

Matt

--
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."

What is more scary... by VikingBrad · 2002-10-17 13:47 · Score: 5, Funny

Slashdot is a quoted news source being used by Google News.

Be afraid, be very afraid

Time to take a course in "logic" by WhiteChocolate42 · 2002-10-17 13:47 · Score: 5, Funny

>Microsoft sponsored a booth for the first time >at the LinuxWorld trade show in August in San >Francisco. The company argued that Windows is >cheaper to maintain because it has more >compatible programs and comes with better >support. Using the same type of reasoning, Microsoft went on to argue that Windows is more stable because it costs more and has little animated paperclips.

Slashdot, you crack me up by jcoy42 · 2002-10-17 13:48 · Score: 4, Funny

On *this* article the half-screen ad that shows up is for visual studio.net?

Oh my..

--
Never trust an atom. They make up everything.

Re:Slashdot, you crack me up by Shelled · 2002-10-17 16:05 · Score: 3, Insightful

Almost any other commercial venture would have buckled under pressure - internal or external - to remove material obviously offensive to such a major client. Of the legion of things Slashdot does wrong (a moderation system open to astroturfing, poor editing, repetitious stories ending in trite tag lines, etc.) this is one thing they do impressively right.

In related news... by iSwitched · 2002-10-17 13:50 · Score: 5, Funny

This conversation overheard outside Steve Jobs' Cupertino office...

MINION: Master, your plan is unfolding nicely, Microsoft and the Free Software community are locked in mortal combat!

THE INSANELY GREAT ONE: (Steepling his fingers) Yes, this is perhaps my most diabolical plan ever, while these fools argue, I shall take over the world!!! (Maniacal laughter). Now, leave me...there is much to do...

--
"That naive cube! How long must I suffer this!" --Sheldon J. Plankton

Then he's failed already... by shepd · 2002-10-17 13:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

Most idiot CEOs already think free software is uninnovative and crappy.

Trying to bolster a platform that's already in place is a waste of time, and that can only serve to further the amount of free software in business, considering at this point its on a steady increase in use.

--
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC

Re:Then he's failed already... by Greebz · 2002-10-17 15:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

Most open source software is indeed completely lacking in innovation.

However, you appear to think that CEOs actually think about software...
Re:Then he's failed already... by di0s · 2002-10-17 16:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

Most open source software is indeed completely lacking in innovation.

Yea, but "innovation" in Windows is simply switching around a few menu items here and there, integrating freeware, and selling it for a premium. How is that innovative? I think Ballmer throws that word around way too much. Microsoft hasn't done anything truely "innovative" in a long time. Ballmer has some nerve calling OSS "cloned" software when Windows has cloned features from many other OS's.

Re:Writing lessons by nelsonal · 2002-10-17 14:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

You have to realize that Bloomberg's specialty is not quality journalism, the WSJ beats them hands down, and they probably all know that. What make Mike a billionare, is that his service provides quantity journalism. That story was probably one of 500 published on Microsoft today. Not all of them were written by Bloomberg's staff, but quite a few were, and they do this for almost every company out there. This isn't an information service for acidemics, it provides near instantanous information for large investors who might just trade a million or more shares on the info provided.

--
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.

Free software business model? by Brian_Ellenberger · 2002-10-17 14:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

How much of the development of Linux is being done by for-profit companies like RedHat or IBM? It seems like most of the new development is being done by people that are getting paid to do Linux development. I think this idea of thousands of developers working in their spare time to make Linux is overrated.

In which case makes the battle between Microsoft and Linux more of a battle of business models than some overhyped free vs not free battle. And I seriously question RedHat and other Linux company's business models. Pay alot of money to develop software, give it away for free, hope people are kind enough to buy the boxed version? I know they sell various support services too, but will that actually be enough to pay the rent? And if the margins are that good, why couldn't Microsoft eventually just adopt a similar business model?

Bigger companies like IBM and Sun may have a better chance with Linux since they have other revenue streams (hardware, services) that give them much bigger margin to blow money developing Linux. However, what happens when times get tight and departments get cut? Will they cut the non-revenue generating departments first?

Brian Ellenberger

I used OSS on Wall St 10 years ago. by MrChuck · 2002-10-17 14:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

I was in a very small group that did core infrastructure at a large wall st bank. We introduced new things like "BIND" and "ntp" and the like. We created a "fire-wall" and brought in Internet connectivity for email and the like. We found this cool gopher replacement that ran on the NeXTs calls "www" - a CLI hyper browser thing.

Some of the business people did yell - "do you really see non-technical people using this 'Internet'?" and when we slid Mosaic to a few people "Do you really see business people using this 'World Web' thing?" . Yes, yes I do. "That just shows what you don't know about business." I'll get back to you on that one, ok?

Everyone had Unix desktops (well, most). Sendmail for 6,000 machines run mostly by, er, me, with end admins actually tossing in the binaries and one of 4 config files that ran the whole thing. SMTP got mail from London to Toyko, desktop to desktop, in under 2 seconds.

Did we live on Open Source? Well, the infrastructure did.

Trouble ticket systems took 2 years to be selected and rolled out.
Our group compiled "req" in a day and used that while we waited for Remedy.

Monitoring systems were selected for THOUSANDS per machine.
We put up CMU SNMP (would now use Net-SNMP) and got better results, despite management ("see, now, snmp is for Network devices" /me looks at ethernet on the NeXT and Sparc 2 "no, hubs and routers, that sort of thing - just pony up the money for each box and we'll monitor it").

Most importantly most trading system software is not store bought. Sure, on windows, they use some rapid development stuff. folks I know use a lot of Java, but it's a LOT of custom software.

The Unix problem was that X and Motif were so miserable to develop for. It was like punishment for choosing Unix. My hat is off to the KDE and GNOME folks for picking up the ball that the X Consortium dropped. Mandate application look and feel. You must quit apps through FILE -> Quit. That beats the random ways that you quite in Wordperfect or XV or Lotus or XTerm or whatever.

The financial world will go to where better app development and better support are. That's been MS for a while, I hate to say. GNOME & KDE may save Unix.

I can tell you this... by tkrotchko · 2002-10-17 14:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

I just installed Lindows 2. Using it right now in fact.

It isn't perfect, but its interface its pretty damned good.

The killer "app" that's holding companies to windows is MS Exchange, specifically the calendering piece and its integration with email.

But when the open source movement gets a really good, robust Exchange replacement, Microsoft essentially becomes redundant.

This new Linux stuff is powerful. When I look at it I understand why Microsoft is nervous.

I think the Lindows people are really onto something here.

--
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you

That's funny... by greenskyx · 2002-10-17 14:24 · Score: 3, Funny

I've always considered Microsoft my #1 enemy... I'm glad they feel the same way...

Dear Steve Ballmer... by gsfprez · 2002-10-17 14:33 · Score: 3, Interesting

i am starting a small business....privacy will be one of the top concerns of our clients.

i want an email server, a file server, a printer server, a web server, and a small database server....

can you give me one reason why the FUCK i would want to pay you...

-for the server software
-for the email server software
-and THEN - for every single person that wants to connect TO the server on TOP of the stuff that you already charged me for? And then want me to keep paying you every year?

good Lord - many small businesses don't want to keep paying your ass at every turn - our money is precious to us, because we don't have a lot, and so if we can save a buck or a few THOUSAND - we're NOT going to give it over to you when there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do so.

AND... the lawyers tell me, like the medical folks are finding out - that if we are going to guarantee security and privacy AND be on the internet too - then you must think i'm wearing an ass-hat to go with software that hasn't fully told me

what data it collects
what data it sends back
what software it may or may not install
what software or data it may or may not watch
what format the files are in so that i can get at my data if i chance vendors later....

The reason that you are losing to Linux is because i get all of that for the supremely expensive cost of $0. TODAY.

If i don't want to be a linux geek, but still have the same kind of stability and software choice - i can hand Apple Computer $1000, and click my way to almost command-line free blissful servers.

And if you think that Palladium, Trusted Computing, and Licensing 6.0 are reasons TO RENT your software - you must be a gran mal ass choad.

Let me tell you what i DO want...

i want my privacy and i don't want to keep paying your ass, okay?

I don't keep paying the furniture guy, i don't keep paying the painter, and i don't keep paying the guy that i paid to run cable in my office.. so why the fuck do you think i should keep paying you after i've gotten what from you?

YOU ARE STUPID and YOU DON'T LISTEN TO US. And it won't be the DOJ or a bunch of lawyers that bring you down..

its your arrogance in thinking that i can't live without you...

--
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.

You're talking about Minix by Wee · 2002-10-17 14:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

Same with Microsoft. If they would be able to do their job, there would be no Linux and nobody would cry foul.

Ummm, I hate to shatter your world-view or anything, but Linux was created because Minix was not able to do the job (or, more accurately, Linus was not able to do any job with Minix, but it's the same difference). The creation of Linux had nothing (or "very, very little") to do with the existence of Windows. Put another way, the two would still have been created in absence of the other; their creations were orthogonal to one another.

Call me crazy, but I just don't know why Linux and Windows always have to compete for the same space. Sure, there's a little overlap, but generally the two (inter)operate separately and nicely. Right tool for the job... choice is good, eh?

-B

--

Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.

Balmer's stake- 235,484,037 shares by sssmashy · 2002-10-17 14:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's easy to see why Ballmer feels a little threatened... he owns almost a quarter billion shares of MSFT, worth $11.7 billion. Next to that, his $700,000 CEO salary looks like chump change.

He dumped 4 million shares in the past 2 years, but at that rate it would take several lifetimes to sell off his entire stake. His only chance of staying in the 11-digit club (as opposed to 10 digits or even 9) is to hope like hell that MSFT can maintain its current market share in the face of neverending pressure from competitor's innovation and open source. Steve's position is that of a fat guy on a treadmill, running to keep in place as it steadily speeds up...

Fumble by limekiller4 · 2002-10-17 14:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

Ballmer, in the article, says:
"We have told our sales force to really understand that this is kind of job one. People are saying by and large, `It might be easier for me to move my Unix apps to Linux than to Windows,' although we're pretty close to making that untrue.""

Awful nice of Steve to admit that it's true now.

--
My .02,
Limekiller

Cheaper == better, in management eyes by A+nonymous+Coward · 2002-10-17 14:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

I've worked with plenty of H1Bs, and some are good, some are bad. But that doesn't matter. Most management sees employees as replaceable parts, no difference from one to the next. They literally don't know how to measure the worth of an employee other than useless buzzwords or seniority. Thus when they see an H1B with the right buzzwords but at half the cost of a citizen, they salivate at saving money. The predictable result is that more H1Bs are hired, and since no attempt has been made to hire only the good ones, a lot of crap H1Bs are hired.

Thus the resentment by actual citizens trying to get the same job. Whether you fit the crap lable or not has nothing to do with complaints about H1Bs. You are tarnished by the management incompetency brush.

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Infuriate left and right

Re:Cheaper == better, in management eyes by YourGarbageMan · 2002-10-17 15:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yep. The biggest problem I've come across in the corporate tech market is a lack of good leadership. They don't know how to form a team, let alone a good team. They don't know how to lead, or what good leadership is. They don't recognize the value in employee retention. They say they do, but its usually just rhetoric. This is not true everywhere, but IMO it is the standard modus operandi. The truth is reflected by the attrocious rates of attrition and turn over. Look at the average length of time a tech worker stays with a given company.

This was never more clear to me than when I was lucky enough to find myself under a good leader on an outstanding team. Only to watch as upper management stomped it all to pieces. Even when they have the good thing, they can't see it.

The reason employee retention is important in the tech market was obvious to me once I thought about it. My company thinks this business is about technology, but its not; its about the people who make the technology. I know that sounds corny but listen up. Technology has a very limited shelf life. What is gold today is rust tomorrow. An outstanding product today is obsolete in a couple of years. But a team of outstanding people can continually invent new and outstanding technology. Those people will constantly reinvigorate the product line, and keep the business healthy and vibrant. So, here's my advice. If you have a successful product, then make sure you retain the people who created that product, because they - not the product - are your most valuable asset.

There's more to it than just that. by AltGrendel · 2002-10-17 14:44 · Score: 5, Interesting

The stronger (i.e. lots of vitality) apps tend to get more community support. By better, I mean from a implementation standpoint.

It's kind of a shotgun effect. Sourceforge and freshmeat are perfect examples. At freshmeat you just need to filter on popularity to see what I mean. The well run projects that are tools community finds useful and stable will tend to be at the top. But you will typically have a choice among several project. You don't have to take the top one.

Microsoft can't do that in public. We've seen proof of that time and again. Their closed source model has gotten them in trouble time and again.

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The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination

- Douglas Adams

It's a hard sell... by weave · 2002-10-17 14:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

Microsoft was trying to convince me to convert my college's e-mail system from unix to exchange server. Their prices for exchange are insane, even with heavily discounted educational pricing.

Let's see, 20,000 inboxes times about $6/seat is $120,000 -- versus -- free. Yeah, Exchange does more than just e-mail, but for that kind of cash in a cash-strapped educational institution, it's just insane. Add in the need to retrain some of my unix systems administrators or fire and rehire (not easy in a government institution) and it approaches an impossible scenario...

Psst. You do realize, some people like windows... by BrookHarty · 2002-10-17 14:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

Win2k/XP is a rather nice Desktop OS. Its come a long way, finally stable, good features, and lots of applications and games. (Ya viruses too)

Truely, I dont think linux has a chance on the desktop. Hardware support isn't there, Application are not isn't there (Loki is gone). I know everyone is working thier ass off to make it, but until the average joe will want to drop Windows boxes for a Linux box, linux will be mostly a server os. (I'm not counting the slashdot crowd, most of us dual boot, and/or have a dedicated linux/bsd server.)

Servers are another questions, Unix is the only way I run my shops. After running DNS/SMTP/HTTP on unix and windows, I can tell from experience, a unix type os is the only choice. (We run Solaris) But hey m$ wins again, seems 1/3rd of all unix admin programs run only on windows or if they use a web gui, only IE is supported. (sigh/disgust)
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Do you GLTron ?

Did he actually say.... by bahwi · 2002-10-17 15:09 · Score: 3, Funny

``I don't know what you do to protect your shareholders and preserve your market capitalization except to out-innovate the Linux community.''

Did he actually say 'out-innovate'?

What Ballmer and the others don't get... by Todd+Knarr · 2002-10-17 15:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

There's one aspect of Open Source that Ballmer and his friends don't get yet. He talks about trying to adopt the open-source ideas to benefit Microsoft. That dooms him to failure right there. People don't contribute to open-source software to benefit someone else. They contribute to benefit themselves. They fix bugs and add features because they need that done. And the contribute it back because they've already benefited from previous contributions from other people. It's all aimed at the benefit of the customer/user. When anyone, whether they be Microsoft or Sun or whoever, sets up a similar system aimed to benefit someone other than the people actually doing the work, those people don't buy in and the whole thing kind of shambles off into oblivion.

If Ballmer wants to adopt open-source ideas, the first one is going to have to be "How can our users add to and change Windows to benefit themselves?". As long as "How can users add to Windows to benefit Microsoft?" takes priority, it'll fail.

Re:What Ballmer and the others don't get... by Mr_Silver · 2002-10-17 21:21 · Score: 3, Interesting
There's one aspect of Open Source that Ballmer and his friends don't get yet. He talks about trying to adopt the open-source ideas to benefit Microsoft. That dooms him to failure right there. People don't contribute to open-source software to benefit someone else. They contribute to benefit themselves. They fix bugs and add features because they need that done.
I beg to differ. People don't contribute to Open Source. Only the minority do.
One thing that is often forgotten here on Slashdot is that majority of people do not care about 80% of the freedom that the GPL gives you. As far as they are concerned, a product is "free" if
1. It does not cost anything
2. They can copy it and give it to their friends without breaking any law
Thats it. The whole idea of being able to view, edit, update, add, fork off and release may be great for those that want to do that.
But bare in mind that the average Joe considers Internet Explorer to be just as "free" as Linux because of the two points above.
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Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.

Reusable code: his BIGGER fear by WheelDweller · 2002-10-17 15:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

There was a study shown on Slashdot a few weeks back about the number of lines of code between Microsoft releases and Redhat Linux releases. The Linux code is growing almost exponentially (or let's say just really darned fast, for accuracy's sake) and the code for Microsoft is stunted. That's because there's no focus group to tell us to re-write the way something works and start from scratch. The longer code lives, the less bugs it will have, due to maturity.

There will come a time where Linux will be comprised of so much code that it would be impossible for any corporation, even Microsoft, to compete. Linux starts from a mature base and improves; Microsoft starts over in areas. Even though they're hideously tied to the DOS-days and such.

Sure, they're gonna have (mostly) functional drivers for the spiffy new hardware, but we get it, too, after a fashion. I just know this; desktop OS's increase in complexity, not decrease: at some point, no one will be able to start from scratch and start competing on the closed-source side, it's just too expensive...even if we're just measuring the price-per-line-of-code yardstick. Even with cool new programming environments.

Be afraid, sweaty-freak...be very afraid.

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--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov

Innvation isn't just about features by driehuis · 2002-10-17 15:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

Let's inform him on some of the "innovating" that Microsoft has done in the past ... shall we?

I'm not someone to stand up for Microsoft, but this comparison _really_ is too easy.

What Unix users tend to forget is that Microsoft actually did some things right in Windows that Unix (or rather, the X Windows toolkits) to this date doesn't do right consistently. Take cut&paste. It's a basic feature, but the sheer scope of deviation among toolkits is just revolting. Tabbing between fields, same story.

As a matter of fact, the thing that I hold against Microsoft is precisely _not_ borrowing successful concepts from other companies. My favorite: Apple for years had a highly successful magazine for Apple Developers, called (wait for it!)... "develop". If a developer asked "develop" a question illustrated by an example, it would be answered with regards to the technology, but equally important, UI goofs would be pointed out.

If you look at MSDN, you will invariably see UI questions answered with "sure, you can do that, here's the code". No matter how counterintuitive or outright stupid the proposed UI is.

Microsoft sucks at trying to sway developers to pay attention to the looks of the UI (and, matter of fact, the WIN32 API doesn't make it particularly easy to do screen layout right), but much of the groundwork for UI behavior is done right, and screwing it up takes a conscious effort. A shocking innovation? I don't think so. Done better than the average Unix tool? You betcha.

Of course, Apple has much to answer for after they set the Dung Standard for user interfaces with their glitzy but totally unusable quicktime player.

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Bert Driehuis -- All I asked was a friggin' rotatin' chair. Throw me a bone here, people.

Balmer is a fool. MS efforts will go nowhere. by Lethyos · 2002-10-17 15:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

Know why? Because open source never has been, isn't, and never will be in competition with Microsoft. Ask Linus - he doesn't give a rats ass what Redmond or the world thinks about Linux. He just wants to make a good product, which is the crux of the issue.

Open source is not a business. It's not an establishment. It's only a set of ideals that are suited to fulfilling a set of needs. For example, people who use open source software have a need for inexpensive, dependable, stable, secure operating systems. As a result, several such operating systems have been produced from open source development efforts. Microsoft does not, cannot, and will never fulfill those needs. Therefore, open source software and ideals will always thrive, just as they have for several decades now. (This nonsense about making software proprietary is still a relatively new one in the computer industry... and it's showing that it will soon fail).

We're not in competition with Microsoft. We can just sit back, laugh, write good code, and use the execellent software we've created to complete our tasks and solve our problems. Meanwhile, they'll run around like mad, trying to compete with an entity that cannot be competed with, spending billions in the process while we go by without burning a single cent! Sure, some people use open source software to compete with Microsoft (RedHat, IBM, et al). But in the end, we are not a business and the fools at Microsoft don't know how to deal with it. Soon, they'll go the way of the dodo and that will be that.

Microsoft will fail because they cannot identify needs and fulfill them. All this time, they'll be busy spinning marketing campaigns, filling magazines with FUD... when they could have been developing quality, open code. I suppose the customer is their last priority. This is a business doomed to fail.

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Why bother.

Re:Balmer is a fool. MS efforts will go nowhere. by fferreres · 2002-10-18 01:44 · Score: 3, Interesting

Most popular unix apps:

- Mplayer (playing windows media files)
- SAMBA (comunicating with Windows machines)
- Apache server (serving http documents to 98% of IE users + the rest)
- OpenOffice reading and saving MS Word/Excel compatible files
- GICU or GAIM: comunicating with Windows IMgrs.
- WineX: playing Windows games
- Mozilla 1: at last being able to see the web IE users see it.

We may not like it, but the most popular unix applications are the ones that "are suited to fulfilling a set of needs" of which is having on Unix what we had under Windows.

I mean, ok you can do other stuff that does not involve Windows compatibility, but why then are these the most popular applications. Take away those apps, and our Linux dies in a month (my bet).

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unfinished: (adj.)

M$ wants to compete...LOL by dh003i · 2002-10-17 15:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

The idea of M$ actually wanting to compete on a level playing field is laughable.

They don't want to compete with Free Software. They want to illegalize Free Software, and force any would be Free Software developers to release their code into the public domain or under a BSD-like license: so that M$ can take all of their ideas, embrace them, extend them in their own products, and then give nothing back to the community.

Basically, if it were up to M$, what's your's would be their's and what's their's would be their's too.

Btw, for those of you blabbing about the Free Software community not doing any innovating, that's bull. Let's just take WM's for the moment.

PWM -- any proprietary window manager out there that can adequately handle tabbed windowing, a vastly superior system?

WindowMaker -- better than Win9x's UI or that of OSX, though WindowMaker and OSX share the same heritage, NeXT. Sure, WindowMaker was based off of the OpenStep standard, but it was an *open* standard. Can't blame the Free Software community for keeping something alive in a viable form when its own company had abandoned it.

Those of you saying that KDE and GNOME are exactly like Windows are wrong; its similar to Windows to make transition easier for Windows users. However, KDE and GNOME each have their own unique features which distinguish them from Windows.

Xfce is an excellent Free Software implementation of CDE; original? no, but excellent, yes.

Alot of you people saying that Linux WM's and Desktop Environments are just Windows clones need to actually use these things instead of just looking at the screenshots from themes.org. They offer many useful features which aren't found in Windows or Mac. There are also areas where Windows and Mac are better. Mac gets points for their universal file menu (any hope of them allowing us to make it hide-away?). Windows gets points for allowing you to make your desktop background a web-page, and for allowing you to add "docks" to the sides of it with your choice of applications/folders on them. WM's in Linux like WindowMaker get points for their elegant look and feel, simplicity (dock); PWM gets points for its excellent tabbed-windowing feature; Xfce gets points for being a nice desktop environment.

Check out my website for some of my suggestions on what would make an ideal WM.

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social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen

China is enemy #1 by chasm007 · 2002-10-17 15:53 · Score: 5, Interesting

Linux is a threat to the Microsoft monopoly. The greatest threat comes from national adoption of Linux by countries outside the United States. There a number of reasons for national governments to announce Linux strategies, including negotiating with Microsoft for a sizeable price break on license costs. Previous Slashdot stories cover adoption announcements by China, Germany, South Africa, Mexico, and Korea. The government most likely to back Linux as a national priority is China. China is the greatest threat to a Microsoft monopoly; it is in China's self-interest to make Linux a national standard because of the country's unique governmental and social situtation:

China is a communist country. The government controls the majority of the chineese economy and can mandate standards and shared cost allocation. China may ban Microsoft products from all state run businesses and government functions, although I doubt they would interfere with sanctioned, entreprenual computing systems.
China has unreliable relations with the United States. China needs control over its critical infrastructure, including its computing systems. A sudden change in relationships with the United States, e.g., an invasion of R.O.C. (Taiwan), could cut of imports, upgrades, and technical support from Microsoft. It is as prudent to mandate self-determination of operating systems as of electrical power.
China can take a long term view. China is the Middle Kingdom, with thousands of years of continous civilization. China, unlike the United States, could decide to embark on a path and resist pressure until it pays off.
China is large, really large. The factbook states China is 1,200,000,000 (1.2B) people with a GDP of over $5,000,000,000,000.00 ($5T). China is the only country that could easily decide to commit a million people to full time Linux development and support.

The nighmare senario for Micosoft is that China makes the Linux operating system and open source applications a national security priority. Think of the effects of this quadrant of the planning grid:

Massive Government Initiatives. China commits a million software engineers to Linux to start, with plans for an addition five million writers of open source over the next few years. Every day, all day, houndreds of thousands of engineers do nothing but address sniggley little issues, others flesh out the documentation, write device drivers, and create rock solid test cases for existing modules. New initiatives for open source software for offices, inventory and supply management, business process management, and educational/training software create credible free software.
China leverages support for open source to build tighter relationships with countries besides the U.S. Open source authors are invited guests at massive conferences in Beijing. X-windows is replaced in two years. ChinaLinux preconfigured desktops surpass Microsoft in terms of reliability, ease of support, and scalability. Attempts to foster opposition in China due to massive revenuse from 100,000 person export-only support center.
Minimum Market Share.Microsoft attempts to use monopoly power to force Windows only desktops and networks. Unfortunately, the market share of ChinaLinux has an absolute floor of 15%, the usage of computers by China. Some hardware and software suppliers break alliances with Microsoft rather than abondon significant customer loyalty. ChinaLinux is copied and recertified by American companies to avoid import restrictions.
Cultural Imperative. Training and certification in ChinaLinux and other applications becomes point of cultural pride as rekindling thousands of years of governmental examinations. Chineese citizens see themselves as the center of the world, from where all new technology flows.

A good future.

Cheers,

Chasm

Re:China is enemy #1 by kevcol · 2002-10-17 16:31 · Score: 4, Funny

Let's just hope they get this message across on the People's Daily: "Leave open port 25 to spammers and you will be executed as a dangerous COUNTER REVOLUTIONARY!"
Re:China is enemy #1 by cpeterso · 2002-10-17 17:14 · Score: 4, Informative

Microsoft makes about 60% of its revenue from sales outside the USA. So international markets are extremely important to them, especially when they need "new" markets because they already own 95% of the existing markets.

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cpeterso
Re:China is enemy #1 by bilbobuggins · 2002-10-17 17:36 · Score: 5, Interesting

I don't mean to be a troll, but you seem to assume through all of this that China will be staying true to the GPL...
what's to stop them from taking the code and running so to speak? RMS invades?
much more likely, you will never see the first line of any serious linux based code written by the chinese government
can you imagine lots of kiddies downloading the linux based kernel that drives chinese missile batteries? i think not
Re:China is enemy #1 by den_erpel · 2002-10-17 20:40 · Score: 3, Interesting
So,

what you actually are saying (at least that what's I'm understanding here), is that Palladium and DRM OS is not really an issue here:
When our worst nightmare becomes reality, two things can happen:
1. Hacking the hardware as a previous comment indicated, the Intel/AMD/Microshaft hardware will be hacked. Since the entire Open Source community will be affected, I guess this will not take long with that amount of developers.
2. A shift in power as the DMCA (and possibly European short sighted counterparts) prohibits hacking the hardware and distributing the code. I guess countries like China will have no objections in doing this and they will come up with a OSS based solution for the problem. Considering the nature of OSS, I see no problem in using their OS as you would most likely get e.g. a non-US-EU software branch in the Far East. Once the (let's call them Chinese for the moment, but also Indians and other countries not affected by stupid legislation) 3/5 of the planet's population realise the potential, I even see a non-Intel dominated hardware line emerging.
Of course, politicians might then decide to prohibit the import of those Asian products, at which time, ... At that time, I guess the western world will have passed along the technological advantage (and all this in the name of innovation).... I am really convinced that with these DRM based solutions we are just bringing ourselves down. Anyway, we are buggered as Westerners, but the Open Source Community will not be...
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Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
Re:China is enemy #1 by Beautyon · 2002-10-17 20:50 · Score: 4, Interesting

I dont believe that China will be concerned to distraction about the single issue of Microsoft; though it might be the catalyst.

If China has any sense, they are gong to use this to leverage thier position to become the world center of technology. Destroying MS will be a byproduct of that.

Everyone world-wide will turn to China as it becomes the number one source for software. They will Presumably eventualy dominate in the area of CPUs/hardware as well.

The whole idea of Linux, if it were told as a story would be dismissed as implausable. Imagine then, an army of developers accelerating its development beyond our imagination. The effects of such an operating system, in every area, will be profound, to say the least.

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ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi

Workstation vs Server licensing by bertok · 2002-10-17 16:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

Microsoft will never win against Linux unless they drastically change their licensing model. Currently, a copy of Windows 2000 Professional costs AUD 685.00 here in Australia. Compare this to their server products: Windows 2000 Server costs AUD 2184.00 and Advanced Server costs a stunning AUD 7900.00. The difference in cost between the workstation and server products is an order of magnitude, but the install CDs are virtually identical except for a few marker files. They even share service packs. It's not like the Server editions have email or database functionality thrown in for free, they just costs more and have different logos.

Believe it or not, most PHBs actually believe they are getting more when they are buying Windows 2000 Server, and that's how Microsoft likes it. To be fair, it's not just Microsoft doing this kind of thing: Have any of you noticed how SMP servers always cost at least a thousand dollars more than single CPU servers or workstations? Are one extra CPU socket and a slightly different North Bridge chip a thousand dollars worth of extra hardware? I think not. Dual CPU machines are largely sold as servers, and most large OEMs have worked out that they can charge more money for server hardware, even if it is almost exactly the same as their workstation products.

Linux, and open source in general, challenges such marketing hype. There is no workstation Linux or server Linux. Any home user or small business can set up a mail or database server without having to fork over five or six digits sums for software that isn't really all that special.

Where Open Source Falls Short by micron · 2002-10-17 16:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

Small to medium business is the largest target market out there. A small business can invest $5,000 in a Microsoft software/ Intel hardware solution, and $5,000 in consulting, and get a solution that will work. The consulting market price is low due to competition. The system will run, and there are many people that can provide this service.

Linux.. I can get the Intel hardware cheap, and the OS out of a book, or free. Not for the novice. I have to find someone who really knows what they are doing to get the apps set up and running. This takes time, and the cost can go through the roof.

Don't confuse inexpensive aquisition costs with inexpensive solutions. Until the mom and pop shops of the world can get accounting systems and small business software up and running inexpensively and easily, Microsoft will be around and making money.

Why are you pinning your hopes on China? by jlusk4 · 2002-10-17 16:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

I don't understand why you guys keep pinning your hopes on China. China has a long history of ignoring IP rights. Why should the GPL be any different? Is the source code for Red Flag out yet? (Has anybody looked at it to see what it's doing while it's booting w/a totally blank screen? Installing a keystroke logger, maybe?)

They're already pirates on a grand scale, so what revenue would Microsoft be *losing* if they switch to Linux?

Re:Why are you pinning your hopes on China? by FooBarWidget · 2002-10-17 19:33 · Score: 4, Informative

"China" doesn't have a long history of ignoring IP right, the citizen have a long history of ignoring IP rights. Piracy in China is still illegal, and the citizen know that very well, but there are simply too many people.

A few years ago, you could buy pirated software and CDs nearly everywhere. If you go to China now, you'll see that most of those dealers are gone (or at least hidden in dark, small places).

money cannon by Tablizer · 2002-10-17 16:56 · Score: 3, Funny

Actually it is enemy #10. It is just that enemies 1 thru 9 have already been squashed. This one is just different because their money cannons are not working against it very well.

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Table-ized A.I.

The Chinese government is enemy #1 by Cheese+Cracker · 2002-10-17 17:07 · Score: 5, Interesting

And despite all warning signs, the US government sucks up for the
communists. They believe that China will fully open up their markets
for American goods, but forget it. China wants to be self-sufficient.
That's why they build their own Linux version, their own CPUs, their
own motherboards etc. The communists doesn't see the west as a reliable
partner, and just as you stated... they want to be able to say fuck off
to the west if necessary.

I make a big distinction between the Chinese people and the communists.
(after all, the Chinese communist party just have 50 million members.
The Chinese people are in general very nice and hardworking people, but
the communist regime is a bunch of unreliable liars.

Re:The Chinese government is enemy #1 by decaying · 2002-10-17 18:39 · Score: 3, Funny

.... as compared to the USA where the democratic regime is always truthful........ um...... hang on....

... and before I get flamed to somewhere where really flamed people go..... here in AU, our government is no better....

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----- One piece short of Legoland
Re:The Chinese government is enemy #1 by budalite · 2002-10-18 02:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

Sorry, but the people of every nation are very responsible for their own government. It's their responsibility and they get exactly what they put into the government process. Which, apparently, in the case of most places, like China, Irag, Iran, etc., is damn near nothing. It's GIGO and NINO. (Nothing in, nothing out). :{(||

N.O.I.S.E. ? by witch · 2002-10-17 17:42 · Score: 5, Funny

Odd that they would use the acronym N.O.I.S.E. -
Netscape, Oracle, IBM, Sun, and Everyone else...
The article says they don't talk much about Netscape
anymore, or Sun, or Oracle. They still talk about
IBM and Everyone else, plus Linux. I guess that
means that their new acronym is L.I.E.

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They're taking their dog to get its two shots before it's too late. You're taking your dog there too, right?

M$ should cash in... by silverhalide · 2002-10-17 17:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

While the effort to isolate the Linux community may be a nobel one in terms of Microsoft's squash 'em mentality, it would be smarter for M$ to try to capitalize on the linux rage by releasing their own distribution and charging for support. People seem to forget, while the actual software is free, implementing it into a specific environment/system is not! There is plenty of money to be made with Linux, just not directly selling it. While I can see there would be plenty of resistance to anything put out by M$, it would be the smartest move on their part -- might improve their image, and have the potential for gaining market share in the Linux sector (While linux is great and all, it's just not quite a viable alternative as a desktop OS for the general public yet. I believe it to be a strict contender in the server market).

It won't work by Gerry+Gleason · 2002-10-17 17:48 · Score: 5, Interesting

This is their strategy, but it is likely to fail. The whole .NET vaperware strategy is probably the most dangerous part of this, but I'm still expecting it to pretty much fall flat. Six or eight months back I was more worried that it might start to catch on, but MS has squandered so much good will in their customer base and with developers that I think it is more or less DOA.

The DRM thing could be a problem too, but I really think it will be such a disaster that it will be completely rejected by consumers. The sticking point is not the basic erosion of fair use copying, but that it is going to be so broken in implementation that it will keep people from doing what they are supposed to be allowed. Average comsumers don't have a lot of patience for bogus technology that won't do what they want, and DRM is likely to screw them over and over. At least the single function DVD player will play the DVDs they rent and buy reliably, and a DRM enabled PC will fail to do this often enough to make them royally pissed off. Put that in your business model and smoke it!

Re:No, he's talking about Windows by Wee · 2002-10-17 17:54 · Score: 5, Interesting

Ok, I'll call you crazy. Linux doesn't operate separate of Windows. Microsoft has been trying to dominate the server market like they did the desktop market for years. Because there were always better quality choices available, Microsoft could only break in on the low-end. Linux competes for the same low-end business servers that Microsoft has made such successful inroads at.

I've seen more than a few companies that simply will not run Linux (or BSD, or Plan 9, or BeOS, or whatever). My wife's company is going to bankrupt itself because it *has* to get on the MS license subscription bandwagon. Which is fine. If MS can sell that bill of goods, then bully on them. But the people at my wife's firm think that they can't even run Linux. They don't even consider it. I don't know why that is.

If they need to run Exchange, then so be it. Does that mean their web server needs to be IIS? Not at all. They don't know that.

You're right: MS is competing with Linux. But there's a lot of room to move in the small server/edge network/whatever area; it's a huge playground, and they choices don't have to be mutually exclusive.

-B

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Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.

Enemy number two by Felinoid · 2002-10-17 17:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

Software piracy is enemy number two.
The enemy isn't Linux as a compeditor but open source as a method of develuping software for free.
Just as software theft hurts the ability to sell software open source makes it difficult to make commertal software available.
People are not willing to buy what they can have for free.
What makes open source a greater enemy than piracy is simple.
Piracy is theft: Somebodys hard work is used with out paying for it. This is moraly, ethicly and legally wrong. The software is not free but taken as much so as one who steals from the store.
Open sorce is a free gift given in good faith to be used by anyone who will have it.
A way to prove your skill. Co branding may be done eventually. "Download Kelloggs Linux from our website or get a CD free with Kellogs brand cereals".
Oh I see your using Pepsi Office.
AOL gives away millions of CDs to keep the AOL name in our faces. Coke, Pepsi and other companys do put a great deal of effort into the same. Free software keeps odd names in our minds all the time. xmms, ogg, gimp all household names in the Linux world.
Plus the job potental for a graduated OS develuper improves with the success of his software.
Transmeta got lucky Linus didn't want to be a consultent a strong posability for populare OS develupers.
Software has become like air. You can buy it or you can get it for free.
Even if it's better quality when you buy it you'll only do it when the free stuff won't take you where you want to go.
(Under water or some new FPS game)

Microsoft makes it's money making the kind of software anyone can make. In the future commertal software will do things that take years of R and D to make possable. Stuff thats not going to come from a team of hobbyests.
Microsoft dosen't make that kind of software. Not yet anyway.
But excluding cutting edge games the mass market dosen't buy such software. They want stuff thats relitively easy to make.
Microsoft is facing the fact that the alternitive to software theft isn't buying software but downloading open sorce.

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I don't actually exist.

Microsoft just dont get the point. by miffo.swe · 2002-10-17 18:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

They cant get into their heads that many of the people looking at linux doesnt do it because of linux superiority. Microsoft has done a great job of alienating their own customers with high prices and shoddy quality. Not to mention how they have made a clear mark that anyone working together with them get a stab in the back.

If they had cared anything about their customers they wouldnt be in this situation.

All their talk about "fighting linux" is just BS. How big part of the market has linux? I think there are enough space to cater both but MS seems to think that ANY competition is dangerous.

Why do they have such little faith in their own ability to compete on fair grounds? It feels liek they are grasping for straws. Maybe times arent so easy when there arent many companies to steal ideas from any longer. Any smart person with a wild new idea for a killer app just think Netscape and then puts it in a drawer until MS gets under control.

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HTTP/1.1 400

Microsoft's Unix Code Migration Guide by alue · 2002-10-17 18:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

This has been up for a little while at OSNews, but I think it's really funny that this new Unix Code Migration Guide suddenly appears at roughly the same time Bloomberg runs an article in which Steve Ballmer says, "People are saying by and large, `It might be easier for me to move my Unix apps to Linux than to Windows,' although we're pretty close to making that untrue."

I guess they're doing their best to make sure that that's "untrue."

Eventually... by Xeriar · 2002-10-17 18:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

Eventually someone very visable is going to point out that the OSS community is a giant, loose-knit volunteer organization, among the largest in history.

It won't be this year, next year, or the year after that, but politicians around the world have already noticed the movement.

That's where I think the 'Then you win.' comes in. Someone makes a speech that encapsules Microsoft's position in two or three easily understood sentances, that sends public opinion through the floor.

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I am a science fantasy fan

Re:Serious Question for Open Source developers... by Todd+Knarr · 2002-10-17 19:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

We'll do what we've traditionally done: get paid to write software. I'd say about 80% of software is by it's nature not amenable to being widely distributed. For example, a point-of-sale system tied tightly into the pump-control, tank-monitoring and other hardware of a truckstop. Half a million or so lines of code, all told, and all of it so specific to one company's way of doing business that there's only a handful of other people who could use it without major modifications and customization. For all that, though, it's so critical to keeping the company running that abandoning it in favor of more generic solutions would be corporate suicide. It would simply cost too much in lost opportunities to have to wait 5 years for someone else to implement an idea, not to mention the costs of customizing it to match the way the company works (or alternatively changing the way the company works, but that's letting the tail wag the dog).

In that kind of situation, open-source is infrastructure. It's the generic code that handles the routine jobs and the well-known tasks so the programmers can concentrate on the critical parts that aren't generic.

Steve Ballmer would love Linux by schlach · 2002-10-17 19:19 · Score: 5, Funny

... if everyone who used Linux bought a copy of XP =)

Quote from CNET.com by WizardofWestmarch · 2002-10-17 20:00 · Score: 5, Interesting

I saw this quote from someone working for the state of Utah and found it rather interesting (not surprising of course) "We buy Microsoft products, and we have this sort of love-hate relationship with them like everyone else, I suppose," said Phillip Windley, chief information officer for the State of Utah. "Last year, they forced us to conduct an audit, which was very painful. And it turns out that the bottom line was that we have overbought. They didn't offer to refund any of those overbought licenses. But if we had underbought, they certainly would have required us to pay more money, I trust."

Open Source for public services by Jayman2 · 2002-10-17 20:02 · Score: 3, Informative

Well its seems that pepole in general are starting to open their eyes for the possibilities in opensource. Although, like some of you have already mentioned, its not necessarily the superiority of Open Source software as much aas it is prices for MS products that is turning the tide.
In Denmark there are trial runs for all the regional councils to change all their public services onto open source machines, completely dropping MS products. Although there are soem technicalities about reliability, the millions of $ that are to be saved has made almost every politican there a supporter of the open source environment.

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China *Will* Obey the GPL by Beautyon · 2002-10-17 20:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

But they wont do this; the Chinese Government will understand that by obeying the GPL and releasing the source the American economy can be radically altered, if not disrupted as everyone switches over to "Free Chinux".

This will be nothing short of a revolution.

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ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi

Re:China *Will* Obey the GPL by Beautyon · 2002-10-17 23:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

That is a rather serious point. As everything stands now, packages get released with trojans in them. Just imagine the amount of source that would have to be checked if one million engineers were churning out code?

It would be nigh on impossible for, shall we say, Americans to chechk through that much source. There simply arent enough developers to do this. We would end up simply having to trust that the Chinux source/packages were entirely benevolent, or, not use them.

The latter will not be an option by the way, since it will be the defacto world standard. Hmmmmm sounds VERY familiar!

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ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi

They will not get the free software people back by Bas_Wijnen · 2002-10-17 20:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

``He's got it tough,'' said Walter Price, who helps manage $35 billion at Dresdner RCM Global Investors and holds Microsoft shares. ``I don't know what you do to protect your shareholders and preserve your market capitalization except to out-innovate the Linux community.''

Even if they would out-innovate GNU/Linux (which I find hard to imagine), the free software community will still not switch, since they care more about freedom than about having the technically best product.

communism.... by orius_khan · 2002-10-17 22:19 · Score: 3, Funny

Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism, it's the other way around...

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Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all the unhappy people.

The biggest enemy of Microsoft is Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · 2002-10-17 22:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

Lets have a look at the facts besides Steves paranoia fud. Linux not really is the enemy, Microsoft or at least the twist the company did since Steve took over is it. Companies never really considered to switch to Unix until Microsoft almost blackmailed them with their new subscription program. I think the critical point will be around 2004 when the public support for win2k runs out. Most companies never really considered an alternative, many of them were happy to go the windows route (well the suites were, buy Microsoft dont have any issues in the management), but things have changed with the new licensing scheme. There is an alternative, a good community also is there, you can buy support if needed and it works and doesnt have all the licensing issues connected to Windows.

The next stupidity out of Redmont now comes with Palladium and TCPA, do you really want to trust a mission critical system to an operating system where somebody might nail unasked an update onto. Do you really want to develop for a system where you in the long term might have to pay an annual tax to keep a signing key alive and do you really want to have somebody else decide if your program is allowed to run anymore or not... This is simply personal computing without personal computing. I think Microsoft and all the others will fall flat on their faces in the long term with this. And at that time, non TCPA implementing systems will be good enough so that you can push them onto the average joe.

Change of plan, gentlemen... by C+A+S+S+I+E+L · 2002-10-17 23:21 · Score: 4, Funny

Yes, I *know* that Bill told you last month that security was our absolute number one priority here at Microsoft. That was last month. This month, destroying Open Source is our absolute number one priority. Open Source threatens our revenue stream, whereas nobody cares about security - we can just bolt that on later if we need to.

Economic Reality by salesgeek · 2002-10-18 01:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

This is going to hurt a little for all of us that make our living off of software, particularly system software, but:

* The OS is a commodity now. It should be priced accordingly.
* Networking software is a commodity and should be priced accordingly.
* The relational database is a commodity now. It should be priced accordingly.
* Basic productivity applications are a commodity, and should be priced accordingly.

Why do you think MS is moving into the enterprise software market by purchasing Great Plains (Accounting/ERP) and developing a CRM package? Why is .NET important? Hint: it differentiates the MS Windows platform from open source OSes. MS understands very clearly that developers write software, sofware dictates platform, platform determines hardware infrastructure and therefore they are gunning for the only real points of control. First, software developers then business owners. If the business owner demands .NET, the developers develop for it. If the developers develop .NET software, business owners will buy it.

MS's lone hope is that their "bookend" strategy of generating end user demand and developer affinity will keep the market from seeing that there's nothing that you CAN do with Windows that you CANNOT do with another less expensive OS/development tool/platform.

I think MS will loose long term: the enterprise software market is very, very specialized and therefore there are smaller segments. There are no "universal" markets like desktop and server OSes that everyone needs. Interoperability is happens fine without .NET or the .NET tools.

Can't wait for the market to sort it out.

$G

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