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Jaguar Free for K-12 Teachers
Hugh writes "It seems Apple is giving away for free its newest revision of Mac OS X, version 10.2 (Jaguar), to every K-12 teacher in the U.S."
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This should have been done long ago.
MS gave hardware to schools to sway them to go M$ Apple should be giving gear away as an investment into the end users too.
comment directly in my journal
Are they just giving away the upgrade or the entire package? If it's the whole OS that's a pretty good deal... heck I'm betting it will sway a lot of people who are thinking of buying a new PC into buying a Mac.
How long till we see the switch ads saying "I got my Mac OS for free... Apple is so nice and 1337"
I got WinXP, Frontpage, OfficeXP, and Visual Studio from MS for being a college student, why didn't we hear about this?
It's great to see that Apple is still promoting their role in the educational market - that's where I started off with Macs. Learning with them at school, especially with their first experiences with computers, can really help people decide which OS to use in the future. Take Maine, for example, where every 7th and 8th grader gets an iBook. A lot of the concerns about that program have come regarding the teachers' and parents' concern with having to learn the new hardware and software. Glad to see Apple is giving teachers a chance to stay on the front lines of the OS.
No, This is like Microsoft giving away Windows XP to use on your Windows 98 machine.
I know many teachers who have old iMacs and couldn't justify paying the price for Jaguar. Now they can.
So are they trying to get better grades or something? The "Apple for the teacher" thing was out of style years ago.
Brings whole new meaning to giving the teacher an apple.
me thinks this is more for teachers' individual machines. not school labs. nice troll, btw
I have a shitty sig!
I'll take one.
What? You doubt that I am a teacher? Well, come here and I'll teach you a lesson or two.
The best part of the giveaway is that Apple is finally handing out some training software (for what it's worth -- totally sight unseen) for OS X. Having just dealt with transferring my mother and several friends from the old Mac OS to OS X, I can safely say that some training and support will be _VERY_ welcome.
The teachers still need to buy the hardware from Apple to run this though right? Can you get a new Apple computer without the OS installed? If not, then this kinda doesn't help new users much
i went down to my university's computer store and the guy there is a big machead like me. i asked him about getting jaguar, since i'd heard several answers to the question of how much the upgrade would really cost, ranging from free to 20 to 70 to the full 120. he said apple yanked their old committment to higher education faculty of a 1 dollar upgrade forcing the faculty to pay the standard educational price of 70. i wonder if this k-12 thing will extend to the universities at some point.
Although I would be extremely frustrated in your situation, I don't think that Apple has "ripped you off again." Presumably you thought the upgrade was worth it, otherwise you wouldn't have bought it. I fail to understand how giving other people freebies "fucks you over." Unless those other people are competing with you. Which, unless you have some unusual circumstances, they are not.
I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
Linux has been doing this since its inception.
I always love these descriptions. Define "teacher." I work at a residential high school as a resident counselor. True, the name "teacher" is not in my title. However, my job description (as written by the state of Illinois) involves teaching students.
Border's refuses to give me a discount on books (even when purchased for programs with students) because they claim (at least my local Border's) that the discount only applies to people that work in a classroom.
I work with very technology-aware students (I work at a the Illinois Math and Science Academy) and, as a big geek, I am often discussing tech issues and comparing computers with students.
(An upcoming program I am putting together will discuss recent copyright debates that are ongoing, for example).
I think that Apple would want nothing more than for me to have a copy of Jaguar to show off to the students.
And Apple might very well send me a copy of Jaguar, who knows...
Of course, being the good little geek, I pre-purchased an educational-discounted copy and got it before it was available retail. That was $75 out of my pocket that I am guessing Apple is not going to reimburse.
I have to wonder how many teachers have already purchased Jaguar.
I might take them up on the offer and give one of the copies to a student.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
That is either a very funny idea or just plain trolling
What we see depends on mainly what we look for. -- John Lubbock Now search for that bug slave!
Yes, Apple may have an agenda but the bottom line is schools are getting free shwag. It's always good to see and I wish more companies would follow suit both in and outside the tech industry. It's also good to see that kids will get more of an opportunity to be exposed to more than just Windows.
The bigger problem is having school districts reponsibly spend the extra money they will save.
My parents are both teachers, but I'm not about to put OS X on their Performa 5200... Not only do they need an Apple computer, they need a relatively new Apple computer.
There is a magic concept at work here: CONTEXT
What makes an action by MS reprehensible or not, is not the actual sequence of events, but the context in which they occur. This is in fact, the determining factor about anti-trust law. A legitimate form of promotion by one entity becomes a prohibited leverage of dominance in the market by a monopoly player.
MS has been determined - in unquestionable legal language - to be a Monopoly player.
Now, make your crack - is MS the Shoe, Top Hat or the Scottie Dog...
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
This isn't the worst of it.
Occasionally, I substitute teach, so I don't think I'm qualified for Apple's give-away, so.
But, from what I've seen, the worse of this advertising stuff is the Channel 1 network.
In exchange for free TVs in every room (and the cable infrastructior [sp] along with it), the school agrees to broadcast this news program into the school rooms.
The actual content of the Channnel one network is supposedly news, but it's biased, heavily, but I suppose that it's hard to keep bias out of news. I mean, just by choosing which stories to cover you've got bias.
CNN's Anderson Cooper and MTV's Serena Alschule (however you spell it) got their start at channel one. It also allowed for a lot of schools to have the means to make their own news shows, some of which were basically some kid reading in monotone the events of the day and the sports scores, along with the cheesy Video Toaster graphics.
But they (Channel 1) pay for it by showing about 4 segments of 4 ads in about 15 minutes to a very specific and very captive audience.
But I remember this stuff back when I was in school. I remember that they had thousands of ads that students were forced to watch, mostly involving OXY cleansers and Pepsi.
Vaguely depressing, because they had the demographic they wanted and the kids had to watch, sometimes there were quizzes based on the content of the show. (Of course, depending how the student cared about his/her grade.)
There's your advertising in schools for you.
At least my school had a pepsi and a coke machine, for choice, you know. They turned them off before first hour started, though my experiences show that the availability has little effect on the students themselves in the classroom. It's more likely the location and the towns' economic situation.
To try and push this into vaguely on topic-ness, I haven't seen an Apple (other than a few Apple IIs [even still]) in a school I've taught at or attended since my college's graphic design lab.
Dan
Apple once owned the edu market but nowadays it actually has to compete. Now, a teacher with a lab full of os9/osx.1 computers from a year ago wont be able to get budget moey to buy the jaguar upgrades. So apple is offering free jaguar to keep them happy. Jaguar is what osx.0 _should_ have been. Don't assume its just a bugfix upgrade.
Never overestimate the end user. -jeramy b. smith
Apple is serving every xbox developer too! ;-)
Belief is the currency of delusion.
This is ironic, the Gates Foundation gave a $1 million grant to fund the project in Maine... Gates (Bill) gives money to Maine to buy Macs? I just thought that was slightly amusing...
(btw, check the site for refference, it's on the right)
With Jaguar, Apple's never made a distinction between an upgrade and an OS purchase. Everyone who has a machine that can run Jaguar already has a version of the Mac OS, so what's the difference between calling it an upgrade or not?
Kevin Fox
I did this for my mom about 10 minutes after Apple made the announcement. I felt authorized, given that I'm her sysadmin.
h ers/i ndex2.html
/.?
Go to:
http://www.apple.com/education/macosxforteac
fill in the zip code of the school of your favorite teacher, and then enter their name and email. OSX will be sent to them. Takes 90 seconds.
P.S. This was announced days ago. What took it so long to make
__ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
I am a 8th grade student at a Middle School who is running the yearbook team. I am the sole user of a G3 with the 21 inch CRT display. I love the computer for what it is, and I am even gladder now that I can ask my advisor to order Jaguar from that site for me. Right now the G3 is crashing twice a week, and i want to have some more peace of mind, espcially so I do not have to upload the pictures and templates every night. THANK YOU APPL!
"What we have here is a failure to communicate"
The Warden, Cool Hand Luke
Oh yes Channel 1, thanks for the flashback ;)
Yea that was a VERY bias news cast now that I think about it. Good thing I have a strong will.
*Grabs a Pepsi*
*DrugCheese rants*
There are counties in the U.S. where the starting salary for teachers qualifies them to live in government subsidized housing. Few such teachers can afford to blow $1,200 or more on an iMac.
Here's a wild idea: Apple could price their computers such that an entry level iMac costs what an entry level Intel-architecture PC does. They could stop trying to be the Bang & Olufson of computers and build machines that teachers and students could readily afford. Not only would that get teachers and students on board, but also make the machines more appealing to the public at large. Instead, Apple seems to be doing just the opposite by integrating expensive LCDs into their entry level iMacs and not selling an entry level machine sans monitor so that consumers can go to Best Buy and purchase a cheap 15"-17" monitor.
isn't giving away a product for below the price you'd normally charge (except in special circumstances) market dumping, and as such illegal?
IANAL either, but no, giving something away is not illegal in general, although it can be under specific circumstances. Donations to schools are, I believe, generally covered under "charity", and far from being illegal, probably even qualify for a tax write-off.
From what I recall, it wasn't the integration of IE with Windows that landed Microsoft in court originally, it was their practice of giving it away for free in order to get an advantage over Netscape.
MS was violating the terms of their earlier consent decree, where they had agreed not to try to put potential competitors out of business by bundling new stuff with the OS. Remember, the rules are different for a monopoly, and even more different for a monopoly that repeatedly violates anti-trust laws.
I'm no fan of Apple, I wouldn't switch on a bet, and if you gave me a Mac, I'd wipe off that OS/X junk and install Debian in a heartbeat, but Apple is clearly doing nothing wrong here.
I would think that even teachers would be able to afford $800 for a low end Mac at home, but Apple has been giving Macs to schools for free for years.
A legparnasom tele van angolnaval.
Maybe they load it up on their machine running MacOS 9 and see how ______ it is and they write a letter to the principle saying that every class should be with a Mac.
Maybe it's just a tactic to get mindshare. Get the newest, freshest OSX out there and viola! everyone in class will "switch".
Get your Unix fortune now!
Apple is giving away Jaguars?
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
...Bentley is offering all K-12 teachers free 19" 5-spoke split-rim titanium bolted alloy wheels with and Pirelli P-Zero tires with the purchase of any Bentley Arnage T!
No, I'm not slow, dull, and unmotivated. But wait, I'm an education major! How could that be? I must be some reject from the math department, right? No wait, I remember why I went into teaching: it was because I valued helping others more than making money. Am I motivated? Hmmm... I dunno, I guess the fact that it worries me that if I don't perform well as a teacher, I could be hurting the abilities of hundreds of students to perform well in math.
You're way over generalizing. I know plenty of "regular" physics, chemistry, ECE, EE, CS, and [insert your major] majors who are completely unmotivated, are as slow as molasses, and really didn't take much away from high school. They aren't stupid, per se, they just don't care. I'll grant that some teachers aren't the sharpest, and some of them were probably referred to teaching because they weren't very successful in other areas. But the majority of the rest of us that feel a calling to help students, partly because we saw such horrible teaching in the past, don't fit your description.
And I believe Apple has a program for home schoolers as well. I'm not sure about this specific deal, but you can read more about Apple's home school connection here:
http://www.apple.com/education/k12/homeschool/
Matt Fahrenbacher
Senior in Mathematics and Education
University of Illinois @ Urbana-Champaign
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
As many people note, Macintoshes are not cheap machines, and may be out of the price range of the average teacher(and do not tell me it is out the price range of all or most teachers, because I know that that statement is false). Apple is also losing market share in the education market mostly due to better marketing by Dell. By offering teachers free OS, they reduce future uncertainty over cost, give then a reliable simple OS, and free them from the MS licensing nightmare.
If Apple were to give away the OS to teachers, that would help a lot, and would not cost them a lot. An apple will generally last through 2 to 3 major upgrade cycles, which may be a couple hundred dollars lost to Apple. That seems a small price to help convince millions of teachers to make their next computer a Mac.
BTW, one issue sometimes brought up but not often fully discussed is the licensing of software to schools by MS. For many people the cost of the computer is only a small part of the total IT cost. Buying software can easily get to be 2/3 of the cost over the life of the machine. Part of the reason that MS is gung ho to force schools to license MS software is so that the software will appear free to the end user, thus artificially reducing the cost of the wintel machine, and increasing the number of student who will buy wintel machines. Although MS also licenses software it makes for the Mac, there is far more 'free' software available for the PC. I have known several people who would have and should have bought Macs, but bought Wintel machines because of the 'free' software.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Even more politically incorrect than that observation will be this question: I don't suppose Jobs will be interested in the millions upon millions of American parents who have taken to home schooling their children - or will he?
I believe Apple has a program that gives discounts to homeschoolers... The same discount they give to teachers. So if you're in the market for Apple hardware, homeschool your kids for a couple months :).
<Amanda`> I just went out to the parking lot in my bathrobe to exchange warez CDs.
That computer would cost me over $3000. Looking over at Dell's website, a similary configured PC, which a better video card, and a 2 Ghz P4 instead of the 2x1Ghz G4's, would run me about half that.
Some specifics that jump out at me: Apple wants $400 for 512MB of PC2700 memory. Dell wants $200. I can get the appropriate module from crucial for $170, so Apple's markup is well over 100%.
The LCD is similar; apple's 17" LCD display runs $1000. Dell will charge me $500. I can get a nice samsung model for about $590 online.
I really, REALLY like what I've seen of OS X, but I won't pay 100% premiums on hardware just to be able to run it.
Yeah, but everytime Microsoft gives away/subsidizes MS software to Schools/Universities the whole Slashdot world erupts into riot. The cries of "Monopoly!" and "brainwashing students" and "conflict of interest" are plentiful.
Now Apple decides to give away their next-gen OS and everyone here thinks that's a great gesture.
Double standard? Definitely. Hypocrytical? It sure looks like it.
The eMacs offer Firewire, USB, ethernet, a 17" flat screen monitor, nice speakers, a compact form factor, and they are very durable. Sure if you buy some no-name, do-it-yourself pc you can get a computer cheaper, but these prices are pretty good for a pre-built, quality machine. On top of all of this you get MacOS X, tons of great free software such as iTunes and iMovie, and the ability to run almost any software written for Linux or other Unix-like operating systems. Not a bad deal at all.
Sapere aude!
Apple has an interesting pricing system. From the page you linked, we learn that it costs $799 with 128MB, $874 with 256MB and $1024 with 512MB, and for $40 you can "get twice the RAM".
shows, some of which were basically some kid reading in monotone the events of the day and the sports scores, along with the cheesy Video Toaster graphics.
I still had fun doing it you insensitive clod!
This Wiki Feeds You TV and Anime - vidwiki.org
I guess they don't. Better write a lengthy post on Slashdot about them.
"You must be a K-12 teacher currently employed in a public, private, or charter school to qualify for participation in this program. This offer is limited to eligible K-12 teachers and is not available to resellers, institutions, home schools, non- teacher K-12 school employees, preservice/student teachers, or higher education faculty (including college of education faculty)."
I'm really quite surprised at this snub. Apple has always had a very positive history of supporting homeschoolers, even offering institutional discounts to HS'ers. Until now, I suppose.
Thanks for nothing, Apple.
If you can't figure out why easy-to-use, effective and free movie and image editing software isn't good for education you're totally pathetic. There are numerous stories at the Apple site, testimonials from ACTUAL teachers detailing how Macs are making a difference in their schools...so STFU.
You ask why the applications should matter to you when you don't use any peripherals? Maybe they don't. But to rant about email servers and forget that students can pick up a hell of a lot from the tools given to them is just lame.
Can any teacher get this upgrade or must they actually own a Mac? Becuase think about it this way, a school employs 80 teachers and most likely doesn't have 80 Macs but doesn't want to buy 30 copies for their lab. If all 80 teachers get a copy then the School now has 80 liscenses of Jaguar. Upgrading the lab is no longer a problem.
Ah, the irony of it.
-braxton
iTunes is useful for anyone with CDs and some
hard drive space who wants to turn their computer
into a smart jukebox.
I guess that's not you, but it doesn't require
iPod, digital camera, or video camera.
I think it's good for kids to create stuff, and
they like to do that sort of thing. So digital
editing for schools makes a lot of sense to me.
My fifth-grade class performed The Mikado, and I
imagine it would have been pretty cool if we could
have filmed it and made a DVD from it. I think
kids should know that DVDs don't have to be made
by Hollywood, they can be made by people too.
Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
> Other than preventing their current K-12 teacher
> customer base from eroding, I can't see what
> this will gain them.
I think that's exactly the point of this promotion.
Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
The law against dumping is intended to protect
against unfair competition, generally of the
foreign variety.
Who but Apple sells operating systems for the Mac?
Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
Actually, I think there's quite a bit of principle in standing up to the starched-suit, Windows-devoted, businessmen hordes who typically govern K-12 schools' buying decisions and recommending Macs.
Kids don't need to help Bill Gates rule the world, and they don't need to become experts on Word features they'll never use that'll be obselete after MS' next release.
They need creativity and problem-solving skills. They need basic tools that are a means to an end, rather than an end. Apple provides such tools and as such their computers are the right choice.
I'm a high school computer science teacher teaching PASCAL, C++ and Java - using Linux of course. I'd *like* to switch (or at least DEMO) for the kids to see that Unix is now underlying a retail desktop OS. But I've got a room full of Intel PC's. And every Mac you can buy now comes with Jaguar on it already. So I guess I'm wondering, "Whats the Point, Apple?"
Hmm, any M$ emplayees sneaking around Slashdot? If so I think you've found your new slogan:
"Think 'even more different' ".
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
That's twice as good in most categories compared to the Imac (right down the number of mouse buttons).
[Insert standard "Mhz Myth" argument here]
[Insert standard "One Button Like God Intended" rant here]
Also, you forgot to factor in the labor involved in building and troubleshooting the computer. Most teachers would have to hire somebody to do this. Since this is a one-off build (I know if you're making dozens of the same computer you can do it faster, since you only need to troubleshoot once), assume four hours at $25/hour to build and troubleshoot. Since most teachers add Windows XP Home for $186.99, and Office XP Standard for $416.99, and you're looking at a total of $1,508.96 for your system.
Anyway, you're missing my point. My point is not that low end Macs are a better deal than low end PCs (they probably aren't). My point is that there are low end Macs which are affordable on a teacher's salary.
A legparnasom tele van angolnaval.
apple needs to do something about the hardware. it is just too expensive as far as schools are concerned. it is an example of being pennywise and pound foolish, but my district sees a dell for say $600 and an imac for say $850, and they'll choose the dell every time. plus, most district people, like mine (ARGHHHHH!!!) can't even spell unix.
i bought an ibook a couple of weeks ago. it has 10.2. i love it. but the problem is more hardware than software. a few years ago, schools began moving toward PC's, and os x is just not going to work.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Not sure how much this will help Apple. This is one of their biggest markets already and they already lots of special deals already for educators on hardware and software. Maybe they should have gone for colleges as well but I guess the marketing dollars wouldn't stretch that far.
This should have been done long ago.
Where were you in the 80's? There was a time when any class that had a computer had an Apple. The AppleIIe and AppleIIgs were about the only thing around schools then, because Apple dumped them at rock-bottom prices and got students hooked.
Try Pinellas County School board/system.They are not exclusively Mac but the main school board building has a lot of them around. Across the county, Macs are in schools in varying degrees. The lowest percentage are in high schools, though there are some high schools that are about 90% Mac. Another high school tech person told me his school had no Macs. He just didn't support them. The teachers in that had them did their own support, except for warranty repair. Then they called us (Apple authorized repair shop).
This county also has a city (Largo, FL) that is run with minimal windows machines. They are primarily Linux with a handfull of Macs in city hall. Wouldn't believe how scared the linux guys are of the Macs. Swore that there was no way to hook them up to the network and ended up getting the Macs their own dsl line. Weird!
I drank what? -- Socrates
Apple's doing this because there are a lot of iMacs out there that can run OSX 10.2 but were bought before hand. Anyone playing with previous versions of OSX were likely told by their tech specialist (usually media center/Librarian with yet another job to do for the same money) to pass on OSX until Apple got it more usable. Even with copies of 10.2 floating around schools (I do warranty repair at several county's schools) they're not about to go and risk thousands of $$$ for a version of OSX that might not be up to snuff. Hence, the give away.
Apple's not hoping to push hardware sales with this; any new Macs will come with 10.2 on it. They just want people to get away from OS9.
I drank what? -- Socrates
And we all know what animal is the Teacher's Pet.
Apple gives away the OS to teachers, thereby strengthening its position in schools and education (post HS is iffy). MS wanted to force schools to buy site licenses, IIRC. Who will win the public's hearts?
Actually, the lowest priced Mac for non-educators is the 15 inch monitor iMac G3 for $799 at Apple's online store. However, I used to work in education, and the discounts available to me were more in line of $50 off a roughly $2000 machine. I can see them selling the eMac with more of a discount though, since that line was initially targeted only to the education market.
Here's the price for a classic iMac for K-12 educator personal purchase.
Snow
256MB SDRAM - 1 DIMM
Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
iMac 600MHz
40GB Ultra ATA drive
CD-ROM drive
Mac OS X and Mac OS 9
Harman Kardon speakers
Apple Pro Keyboard
Apple Pro Mouse
Subtotal $789.00
All new Macs come with OSX 10.2. The free offer of 10.2 to K-12 teachers is to enable them to install it on the Macs they already have (both school and personal), not push new hardware sales. Think about it before entering bash-Apple mode.
I drank what? -- Socrates
I'm not sure that you all are understanding this correctly.
Apple is giving away OSX to TEACHERS, not schools. There is quite a big difference here; the teachers get a copy of it, and can do whatever the heck they want to with it.
This does NOT mean that Apple is giving OSX to schools for the use in classrooms, labs, etc. Microsoft's products for K-12 teachers/students are licensed so that they are for (educational) use by the teacher or student, but not the school, as sepearate (more expensive) versions exist for schools. The copy of the software belongs to the teacher, and unless it's being installed on a computer which is property of the teacher, it's a copyright violation (and rightfully so - the school is essentially "stealing" the software from the teacher). I'm sure apple has a similar clause in their agreement. Still, I think it's a great offer.
Besides, isn't product placement one of the most effective forms of advertising?
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Presumably, Apple is trying to boost OS X use by teachers, so that more students will be exposed to the OS and thus will use it when they grow up. So why is Apple not offering this to home schoolers?
Home schoolers only directly school a few students each, but they interact with hundreds. For example, we belong to a home schooling association in Ft. Worth, which has about 200 students total. These people get together, and they talk - a lot! - about how they educate their children. These parents/teachers will sell (by which I mean convince to buy, though occasionally there is trade also) curricula, tools, local programs and the like to each other, based on how much it helps them. If Apple were to offer a homeschooling teacher this deal, they would be reaching as many people as they would through a public school, and people very dedicated to educating. Throw in sample educational software (which they should do with public school teachers as well) and their chances of growing their market go up dramatically.
On top of this, in many states, home schools are legally private schools no different (except in number of students and which building they are housed in) than any other private school. (This is true in Texas, for instance.) I don't really understand Apple's reasons for excluding homeschoolers from this program.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
I'm a high school senior right now. Being a geek, I help out a lot with our school's highly overworked IT people. I've seen a large resistance throughout the district to change over to OS X. These people don't like change. Change requires retraining teachers and changing infrastructure. Its a great effort just to teach most teachers how to check their email. Now when we change to OS X, a lot of things are going to be done differently. Apple has probably seen this resistance in action. Apple has shown they want to completely get rid of classic as soon as possible. To smooth this transistion it makes sense for them to give it away along with training materials. It will also help cash strapped districts create a homogenous OS enviroment. OS X runs a little slow on older g3s, but it runs it fast enough for most educational purposes. This is a sound business and PR move for apple in my opinion.
It seems that apple has always had a strong connection with schools until I started working at a college. Apple barely offers any deals to colleges. Even if you go for a student discount (and spend about an hour filling out the forms) you'll only get about $50 off a new macintosh (too bad they don't tell you that BEFORE you fill out the forms).
How is apple supposed to expect support from the developer community or the student community when no one is being trained on using macs in school (other then graphics design people)?
The only people I know who know anything about macs are the graphic design people who will probably never own a mac because they will be supplied one from their employer.
Apple should really try and get the techies into macs at school. For example, a local college here offers a 3 year "Computer Systems Technician" Diploma and not once do any of their students touch a macintosh.
Graphic designers won't be developing software for your macs Apple.. clue in.
This is the fundamental argument about Netscape. MS had desktop dominance, and used it to achieve browser dominance.
One needn't have a monopoly in one given area, to provoke a legal need for restriction on one's activities in another.
I wonder if you have any basic understanding of the existing legislation, and the rationale for constraints that have been sought on MS behavior... It appears you are more pleased by being contrary, than by thinking a little."Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
You are quoting prices on an grotesquely underpowered, outdated machine on which OS-X crawls. It doesn't have any way to write to removable media, so how is the teacher supposed to back up her data? "Sorry class, but I lost all of your grades in my spreadsheet because my hard drive died. I had no backup because for $800, my iMac didn't even come with a floppy drive, much less a CD-R/W."
Now compare that price to a modern, low-end machine from, say, Compaq:
Presario 6300US Minitower
128MB RAM
Windows XP Home Edition
Intel Celeron Processor 1.4GHz
48X CD-Rom Drive
40GB Hard Drive
Floppy drive (3..5")
Keyboard
Mouse (with more than one button and a wheel)
CompUSA Price: $400 after rebate
Samsung SyncMaster 750s 17-inch monitor: $140 after rebate
Altec Lansing 220 2.0 Amplified Speaker System: $30
Grand total: $570
And that price is just what the general public can get by walking into CompUSA today. A little shopping or an educators' discount would have turned up an even better price. For $250 less than the outdated "classic" iMac, the teacher gets a much faster machine (a 1.7ghz Celeron will spank a 600mhz G3 according to any respected, independent benchmark such as Spec), a larger monitor, a floppy drive, and more bundled software. In addition, she gets a machine that is much more expandable should she ever wish to put in a better video card, CD-R/W drive, DVD drive, etc.
So please stop with the Apple fanboy routine. The iMac line is grossly overpriced -- especially for most teachers' modest incomes.
The cheapest Wintel Desktop they list is a Compaq EVO D510 2GHz P4 256/40GB CD at 1,149.00. The Compaq has more RAM and a three year warranty but inferior display/graphics combo and no firewire.
They also offer amazing specials on Apple products. When the second generation TiBook came out I got a first generation one for $1,700. I also got an iPod for $230 back when they retailed for $399.
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
I was interviewed on Channel One once - the topic was media coverage of war in Kosovo. The interviewer was really cool and seemed interested in my perspective, but I couldn't help thinking she was baiting me for something. When I saw the videotape of how she edited it I understood. They managed not only to take my words out of context, but to give the impression that I was saying almost exactly the opposite of what I intended. What I had said was critical of the US media; most of this was edited out, and it was made to look like my sole purpose was to bash Serbian media coverage.
that slogan manages to be even more grammatically incorrect than the original!
yellow dog?
Apple Talk is turned off by default in 10.2. Show me a network have to use Apple Talk (with modern macs and modern printing hardware... without which running OSX would be idiotic anyway) and THEN you can bitch.
the battleship
"Teachers leave us kids alone
Rutgers University for one. 30,000 users, covering all three campuses of Newark, New Brunswick, and Camden as well as the 5 sub-colleges that make up RU NB. Its not the main use and its mostly legacy as modern macs can do without it, but it's still there churning away, just as it has for years. How do I know this? I work for RU's Resnet. So cram your whiny BS. Don't wanna read about Apple stuff? It's a simple option in your account.
Viva La Revolucion! Buy a Mac!
Bullshit. I have yet to see a single person show me a TOL PC for $1000. So would you care to step up to the challenge?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Two things
1) This would be a special case since a) it's only going to k-12 teachers and b) as I read it, it's the single user version
2) This isn't quite product dumping because if you own a mac, chances are you're probably already using mac OS, meaning this is just a free upgrade.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
The real reason that Macs tend to remain in institutions for 4+ years is due to the fact that MacOS machines stay functional for a long a** time ;). Mac developers typically support older Apple hardware for quite a while since the hardware/software that they are developing for is incredibly specific. Moreover, Apple has a smaller market share it really makes sense to support as many macs as you possibly can... even 4 year old G3s.
... and work incredibly well at that.
;)
I find it somewhat funny that I can walk into something such as a music studio and still find a ton of old Mac Classics sitting next to dual G4's. When your dealing with multimedia tasks such as midi Mac classics still just "work"
People rarely want to keep a Wintel box around for more then 3 years. You get desire to migrate a lot sooner. (and by "migrate" I mean "huck that slow, difficult, outdated POS out the window")
I used to work in a campus IT dept, and I fail to comprehend why anyone in their right mind would want to spend thousands of dollars on Wintel computer labs. I guess people simply like to purchase what they know. Mac labs last longer (especially in multimedia labs), they are more secure, they have the same damn productivity software, they require a much smaller IT dept, software licenses are not a royal pain in the butt, kids can comprehend how to use the desktop workspace faster, teachers can admin class networks and netboot machines with virtually no training, etc etc etc. I'm also fairly sure Apple gives institutions a fairly nice price break when they buy in bulk.
I'm all about white box PCs if your going to stick linux on them and set up as word processing machines or library terminals. That's a smart low maintenance move. But for the love of god, keep those things out of the media labs
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
hmmm, the school district I worked at was almost the exact opposite of your picture. Teachers didn't copy any software, infact they didn't even get the discs, if they wanted somethign they brought it to us and we checked the licences and then did the installs. The school was so paranoid, we couldn't even install NT on the machines we had just finished building untill the new licences came back from M$, despite the fact that we had sent the order out, we were just waiting for confirmation.
The school board at the district did not use macs, in fact the board of ed was pushing to have PCs (lower initial cost don'cha know). This was caused a minor uproard amongst teachers. At the highschool it was a roughly 60-40 split, with heavy support for macs from the art department and the music department (but since when has a highschool cared about them?). At the middle school it was nearly 90% support for macs, only some of the new teachers fresh out of college didn't like the macs. At the elementary school it was 100% support for the macs.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Think about it. Take a look arround you at kids. Almost all of them are walking bilboards for one brand name or another. The sony headphones, the ambercrombie and fitch shirts, the Lee jeans, Nike shoes, Fubu jackets, the list goes on and on. Budwiser shirts, DKNY, Weezer etc etc etc. Kids are already used to seeing ads everywhere they look. What difference does it make if there are pepsi posters arroudn school, and Apples in the lab? Kids are either sheep or make their own decisions. Either way, it won't matter what we do.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
There isn't a single k-12 teacher I can think of save for computer science teachers that could install, run or even download and make an immage of the linux CDs. That is why linux being free isn't news. That and because linux has always been free, so the norm is not news
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
'Nuff said. Would have been nice to tell the school where my brother teaches in Manchester, UK. Or to contact my friend who is working with local schools in Cambodia.
After all, they had to come to an arrangement with Apple records when the macintosh got sound capabilities, so I guess now Infogrammes' lawyers (who own the Atari and Jaguar trademarks in the context of computers) are rubbing their hands with glee.
First, the G3 iMac does come with a CDRW.
Second, a USB floppy drive runs $30, and the Compaq POS here has no FireWire, no CDRW, a lower-end version of the OS, no bundled software other than IE and Outlook Express...there's not much comparison. It stinks on ice.
ALSO, you could quote real prices--how much are these stupid rebates? Most are $199 for the computer, so looking at that I'd guess $50 for the monitor, which puts us back up at...a little over the cost of the G3 iMac today.
Your trollish defenses? It has more than one button on the mouse. Whoopie--you can buy a mouse with 100 buttons for your Mac, if it turns your crank.
Other big selling point? This teacher, who has little money and time, can buy and install DVD players, video cards and assorted crap. I know that's what most teachers I know do--they are constantly upgrading their low-end hardware.
First, the G3 iMac does come with a CDRW.
No it does not. Here are Apple's own specs since you seem unable to navigate the web on your own.
Second, a USB floppy drive runs $30 and the Compaq POS here has no FireWire
A firewire card runs $20 -- and most people have no use for it. Oh, I see, if an iMac is missing something like a floppy, then that should be viewed as an 'inexpensive upgrade opportunity', but if the Compaq is missing something that costs less (and that most people neither need nor want), it's a POS.
Since you decided to get petty about ports, I will point out that the classic iMac does not have a parallel port, audio line in, serial port, or video connector (making monitor upgrades essentially impossible). Every one of those is a lot more valuable than Firewire for most people. Even more important than the iMac's lack of ports is the lack of expansion slots. The person who purchases the Compaq can add a SCSI card, Firewire card, USB 2.0 card, 802.11a card, RAID controller, TV tuner card, video capture card, etc. The iMac user has no such expansion opportunities.
no CDRW
Neither does the $789 "classic" iMac. So now the Compaq PC is a "POS" because it lacks something that the iMac also lacks? I will also point out that the CD-ROM drive in the Compaq is a 48x unit while the one in the G3 iMac is a 24x unit.
a lower-end version of the OS
For which there is far more software than for the Mac OS. Tell me what limitations Windows XP Home has that will impair the average home user.
no bundled software other than IE and Outlook Express.
Preinstalled software on the Compaq includes:
Microsoft Money 2002
Microsoft Works 6.0 office suite
Microsoft Encarta Online Encyclopedia Deluxe
Intuit Quicken Financial Center/ Quicken 2002
RealNetworks RealOne Player
Adobe Acrobat Reader 5.0
Norton Antivirus 2002
Coloreal Color Management software
Next time, do some research so that you don't make an ass of yourself.
ALSO, you could quote real prices--how much are these stupid rebates? Most are $199 for the computer, so looking at that I'd guess $50 for the monitor, which puts us back up at...a little over the cost of the G3 iMac today.
Are you too stupid to successfully get a rebate? What a "mornon" (to use your word)! Since you are apparently too challenged to use CompUSA's web site, the computer has a $50 rebate (not $199, as you suggested) and the monitor has an instant rebate -- so that even you could get it. So much for that pathetic argument.
It has more than one button on the mouse. Whoopie--you can buy a mouse with 100 buttons for your Mac, if it turns your crank.
So what? The machine costs $800 and doesn't come with one.
Other big selling point? This teacher, who has little money and time, can buy and install DVD players, video cards and assorted crap. I know that's what most teachers I know do-- they are constantly upgrading their low-end hardware.
If you would take your head out of Steve Jobs' ass for a moment, you would realize that it's a lot cheaper to upgrade a PC than to buy a whole new machine.
This is why I hate debating with many Mac users.
I initially said that the $1200 price of a modern iMac was too high for many teachers to pay. Then a Mac fanboy posted that there was an educator deal that offered the "classic" iMac (G3) for $789. When I compared that to what was available from Compaq (at CompUSA), you flamed me and claimed that the iMac has a CD-RW drive -- when the ones that have that are the new iMacs that start with the $1200 price tag to which I initially referred. So when comparing on price, we should assume $789, but when comparing specs, we should use the $1200 iMac?
I took the time to research what I wrote, looking up specs on the iMac and the Compaq before posting. You shot back with your flame (calling me a "mornon") in which you made incorrect assertions, illogical arguments, and for which you apparently did zero fact checking.
I got a really good discount about 5 years ago. I signed up as an Apple's developer. At that point and time all Apple developers received steep hardware discounts. I bought a new 8600/300 w/ Applevision 1710, Color StyleWriter 4500, and a P166 PC Card (@ $826) with an incredible discount. Paid for the membership and the monitor.
You had me at EHLO
That's commercial? Anyway, they're not a serious
enough competitor to successfully bring a dumping
action. They'd be laughed out of court.
Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
I'm sorry I called you a mornon.
Apology accepted (assuming that you were expressing regrets at the term and not simply the spelling.
I do think if you try and win your arguements w/o so much bile, you'll get further.
You will find that I am a far more pleasant person when I am not called a moron in the subject of a message.
On my single processor 600MHz G3 iBook.
Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
Not at all. Time to drop your FUD. I just recently aquired a used 400 Mhz G3 PowerBook with 256MB RAM, and things are running on it quite well. iTunes, iCal, Mozilla, AOL, etc all at once. I've even been doing a lot of remote work with OroborOSX running apps from my Linux box remotely, including Mozilla and full-bore developer stuff.
(I'm quite interested in looking into Rendezvous also, given that it's a Zeroconf implementation.)
Well... considering that the original iMac is from 1998, and can run OS X with only a $17 ram upgrade, I'd say that's not too bad. It's nowhere near the cost of getting PC hardware up to running the latest version of MS Windows.
Unlike many other OS's, there's not a lot to learn. The apps pretty much run as-is, and the OS itself is simpler if anything. And this comes, among other things, from first-hand experience with upgrading grandparents from OS 9.
Have you actually looked into this? Jaguar has support for "old-school" services, plus all the newer ones like nice Windows networking. Rendezvous simplifies things, and Jaguar includes other nic such as USB printer sharing.
Despite our rocky start, you're okay by me.
We're homeschoolers, which is why my copy of Jaguar cost $69 when I bought it last August. Free would be better, of course, but Apple does give homeschoolers a break.
Anyone know if MS or {Dell/Gateway/HP} makes a similar effort?
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.