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Returning to School for a Better Degree?
HerbieTMac asks: "I graduated a few years ago (AB '00) from a decent school. Having worked my myself quite nearly to death, I am now the proud owner of two bachelor's degrees in Economics and Public Policy. I also have put in a couple of years working as a Computer Science TA for the masters program. Being older and arguably wiser, I find that I don't really like where I am going and instead want to pursue a PhD in physics. The problem is that most PhD programs require an undergraduate degree in physics first. Or at least a significant amount of classwork in the field. Most of my physics knowledge has come from self-study and bumming class notes from friends. I'd love to go back to school and do the work for the AB but most schools won't accept applications for a second (in my case third) bachelor's degree. Has anyone else decided that they really didn't want to work with the first degree? How did you go about convincing a school that you are a good bet? Or even to let you do some preparatory course work?"
I really hate to say this, but if you are legitimately older and wiser, you'd reconsider the PhD in Physics, unless you are REALLY in love with the field.
/. posting) is a hot combo, personally!
In ~15 years in the computer biz, I have worked with numerous Physics PhDs who have gotten OUT of the field due to lack of jobs (since we stopped doing bombs in the 80s), lack of research funding, and lack of ability to make progress in the field.
Again, I don't want to disuade you if you are really in love with the field. But remember, a PhD is a 4-8 year commitment, and you better know where you are going before you jump.
I think the Economics and Public Policy gig, combined with a knowledge of computers (which I am assuming from your
If you want to do a PhD in physics, believe me, you WANT to get an underdraduate title first... after all, physics is hard!
Rather than trying to get an undergraduate degree, just take the physics and math courses that an undergraduate would take. Find out from a graduate program what they think are the most important courses. FWIW, I knew a guy with a BA in English who eventually got a PHD in physics.
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My wife went to school wanting to do Anthropology (Primatology to be specific, the whole Jane Goodale thing), well after earning a BA in that she decided it really wasn't for her and she wanted to get a MFA (Masters of Fine Arts, the highest you can get in Art, basically a PhD for artists) so she could teach at the college level. Well they require all sorts of odd prequistes and such to get into those programs without you being a special stupid (stupid stuff like 2D design and art history 101). Well my wife has been an artist on the side for years and is actually ver accomplished, and sells pieces and has been in a couple shows. So in lieu of taking a bunch of classes she doesn't need she went and talked to the Dean of that department and the people in charge of admissions and showed them her work and explained herself and they waved the requirements.
From what I have seen the best thing you can do is talk to the people in charge, don't talk to the low level consuler types they will simply point at the rules book. If you can prove yourself and prove you know what you are doing and that you have direction and drive and are willing to work hard most of the people in charge will let you wave stupid things. So in other words talk to people.
The way I see it is that school isn't fun. I mean I'm a CS Major going for my BS and college is awesome. But classes aren't. Most of the suck. I'm getting out of here asap. I like coding though, so when I get a job in the real world, it will be fun because I'll be coding. If you've already got degrees, don't get more, just get a job that you like and get on with life. If you spend all your time in school you wont have any time to spend on "real life".
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Undoubtedly your undergraduate math classes (probably first-year calculus and several statistics classes, given your undergrad degrees) were sufficient for your current degrees, but they just aren't enough for graduate-level physics.
What exactly do you want to do with a PhD in physics. Jobs after the fact are extremely competitive, more competitive than other scientific PhD's like chemistry or molecular biology.
That said, I have found the best way is to ask academic laboratories near where you live for a job (one by one). The pay will be crap, but it would be experience for the resume that won't require a physics background like an internship.
-Sean
consider a graduate degree first. ...physics is a rather specialized field, though, so it may be different.
graduate schools are less picky about your undergrad degrees (just that you have one and score well on tests).
with a masters in physics, the physics phd program should be far easier to get into.
Use my userscript to add story images to Slashdot. There's no going back.
I wonder, you mentioned having an AB in Economics and Public Policy, did you attend the University of Chicago perhaps? Speaking as an alum myself I can understand your position. With how one takes a little bit of everything while at the UofC, it can be hard to figure out what it is you really wish to do for your career. I have undergraduate degrees in both Math and CS but working for a few years in the Sillicon valley really turned me off from the computer profession. By then I wanted to do something that really had some meaning and I was too old to reasonably continue in math so I took a job as a software engineer at a governemnt lab.
If you want to work in the physics field you really do not need much of a physics background. For example much of experimental high energy physics and astro is done in large colaborations. They need computer programmers, sys admins, engineers, and technicans.
You mentioned you have TA'ed for a Masters CS program. If this is the proffesional CS program from the UofC be sure to take the 'hard' courses. Most of that program is looked down upon by people in the know. When you are ready you can apply for a job at a national laboratory, say in the DoD or DOE. Look for work in in 'operations' on an accelerator, often this will be shift work, or in accelerator controls for example.
Your coworkers will teach you what you need to know about physics to do your job and if you do it well you will be helping the collaboration do physics which is wgat you wanted. If you do indeed decide that physics is for you and you have some good luck, you may be able to do graduate research related to what you do, say accelerator operations, and have the lab fund a portion of it.
Sounds like you have a little difficulty determining what you really want.
Did it ever occur to you, while working toward you other two degrees, that it wasn't what you wanted to do? You could have switched majors and been much further ahead then where you are now, which is probably in debt and with two essentially worthless (for what you want to do) degrees.
I suggest you pay more attention to what you're doing this time. Maybe find a way to work with actual physicists and determine if you like it.
Whatever, it's just another "O Great Oracle of Ask Slashdot, guide me in my everyday life choices!" question.
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Take the physics sybject GRE.
If you do decently, you'll be ok, if not, I stongly recommend you consider giving up.
Schools tend to put a lot of emphasis on that test, so if you do well, you have a chance at getting in. If you really want to go through getting a BS, and then applying... that's means it's going to be 10 years before you're done... and then you'll probably post-doc for another few years... it could take a while.
Don't listen to all the doubting computer scientests out there, they forget that computer science and engineering are branches of physics. There are some branches where jobs are plentiful (optics, materials), and some where they're not so plentiful (particle, cosmology).
If it helps, I do know one physics PhD who recieved his degree when he was in his forties. It can be done.
indiana university doesn't put any restrictions on how many undergrad degrees you have. You might have to re-take basic coursework because classes only count for 10 years, but that's to be expected. You could always test out of those classes.
I'm going back for a second degree, but that's not because I didn't like the first.
Eric Lee Green BadTux
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
except that I have a Comp Sci degree, so maybe I have a little bit more on the math side (and I'd taken Physics I&II). Anyway, one thing you need to do eventually is take the GREs. Last year I took modern physics and mathematical methods for physics at a local college (and got two As :) and then failed the hell out of the Physics GREs. Yeah, you can't fail them, but I was in the bottom 15% or something. So that told me that I was going to need more studying before I could tackle grad school. I'm now taking Quantum Mechanics, and I need to take at least Analytical Mechanics and E&M (which is not Physics II).
I've already taken Calc I and II, and Linear Algebra, which combined with Math Methods for Physics should be enough for undergrad, though it would be nice if I took Calc III (multivariable) and/or Diff EQs (both of which were covered in Math Methods, but we spent about one week on each of them).
In the mean time I passed the Physics (and Chemistry and Physical Science) Praxis exams with flying colors, so once I get my application in and processed I'll have an alternative route certificate to teach high school while getting the extra education I need (and they'll pay for my masters if I decide to do that part time).
Nothing is what it seems. Most experiences are disappointing. Coding the same thing more than once is a bore; and each time, when you're finished the company dies and takes their proprietary software down with them, and you have nothing except the money you probably already spent, and your hard work never sees the light of day, or is properly rewarded if it does.
Probably the best advice is if you have food on the table and a roof with a computer and a 'net connection under it, be happy; and if you like coding so much, get your thrills from releasing open source. A job is generally just a job - to support your habits.
Maybe if you had an advanced degree you could work in a cool research lab, but otherwise the only real opportunities will be those you create for yourself.
Excuse me for being ignorant, but your sig is bothering me. I can't find where the mistake is (if there is one?). Help me out, here...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Do you want to go to a theoretical or applied branch?
If you want to do hard-core theoretical physics you need to be extraordinary intelligent and hard-working to do even a minor contribution to the field. Of course, it you are really passionate about it you will be rewarded just by getting a better understanding about the world we live in.
If you want to do some applied physics (say material science or space propulsion) the prospects are much better to do a serious contribution, especially if you are smart, hard-working and lucky.
Tor (physics BS/MS now in consulting)
heh... funny I just spent 5 years getting a double major B.S. in physics and math, only to find I can't do a damned thing with them.
:)
I was considering going to grad school for finance... too bad we can't swap degrees
Speaking as a physics PhD, post-doctoral researcher, and person currently looking for faculty jobs...
1) I agree with the person who said take the GREs. If you have a good undergrad degree in physics, and good letters of recommendation, the GREs are not that important. However, if you have none of these things but did well on the GREs then you will get looked at.
2) I know a lot of physics PhDs who have left "research" for programming, consulting and all sorts of weird and wonderful things. Some leave because they couldn't make the cut (and these are the bitter and twisted ones
3) Do ask yourself why you want to do this -- a PhD is a lot of hard work.
4) Identify some institutions / individuals who do work that you are interested in, and email them (and perhaps sit a couple of mock GREs first, so you can reassure them you are not a complete daydreamer) for advice.
5) I know plenty of people who have completed PhDs without a strong undergraduate background in physics, so it is not impossible.
It worked for me.
You could apply to a Master's program in physics first. It would be easier to get into, and if you went straight to a phd from there you wouldn't be spending any extra time.
Some schools will admit you to a Master's degree program on a provisional basis. Admittedly, physics is a tough discipline to break into. Look into getting a master's degree in a related field, like mathematics.
You can take the courses you need as a non-degree seeking student. The graduate schools will look at your transcripts, see the requisite courses, and let you in (provided you've jumped through all the other hoops first, of course). Education is all about jumping through hoops for people. Jump through the right hoops for the right people, and you can get where you need to go.
Also, since you have an educational background in econ, you might be able to get into a graduate program in Math. From there it's an easier jump to graduate degrees in physics. They may let you play their PhD games, even!
Finally, you can always try to get a favor from a former professor. Did you take any physics in college at all? How about math? Go talk to your professors, and talk to professors and admissions officers at schools you are interested in.
The slashdot crowd has many intelligent people with great ideas, but that's no substitute for talking to the very people who really do control your destiny. Talk to the colleges, not us.
2D design is a very very basic class, they teach basic color mixing (which any painter worth their salt can perform a months worth of these lessons in a matter of minutes), basic design concepts, what shapes are etc etc, it would be the equivelent of making an experianced Systems Admin take Intro to Microcomputer Applications (ie how to use Microsoft Office).
;) on classes that helped her (upper level MFA stuff).
Same thing goes for Art History 101, any good artist researches other artists and periods and styles, so taking this class is a review of things they have studied on their own.
Of course this all depends on the person applying, some people with little experiance may require basic classes, in my wifes case they wouldn't of help further her, if anything it would have simply been an easy A, so she was able to get it waved and was allowed to spend her time (and my money
By turning to Ask Slashdot you're missing the most obvious place to get information, the admissions office and advisors at the school(s) you want to go to. Having recently looked at grad schools, many schools (and even departments inside of them) have wildly differing requirements. A few emails to grad-info@bigstate.edu will probably get you a lot more useful, relevant, accurate information than 100 posts here.
My $0.02 : Find a not-entirely-prestigious school that will let you into their MS program and let you make up the undergrad classes that you're missing out on (could probably bust them out in a year or so) and from there transver into the Really Good School to finish up the PhD. That way, you not only make up the missing undergrad work quickly, you also end up with a MS degree at the halfway point, giving you an advanced degree to fall-back on if you decide to not go on to the PhD.
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
My only question for you is why are you so against simply talking to someone over this? It will honestly hurt nothing to simply ask if it is possible to get outta prerequisites and/or to discuss alternatives with the dean or whoever. I think the guy should at least try. Simply nay saying something gets you nothing, and for the most part asking will not hurt anything, at worst they will say no, and even if they do they will at least see that you have ambition. And heck maybe it will work and the guy will be able to get outta some or all of the undergrad classes.
Do a Distance Learning Degree - eg www.open.ac.uk - will give you the BSc you need plus a through grounding - and you can earn at the same time.