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The Ethics of Desktop Chips Stuffed Into Laptop PCs
squareBIT writes "I recently found this article on THG about my SmartStep 250N having a desktop CPU stuffed into it. That's all fine and dandy. but when I paid for this thing, nobody told me it would run at HALF SPEED in battery mode. I don't recall there being any mention of this before I handed them thousands of dollars. Shouldn't there be some sort ethical ramifications put into action here? I feel so dirty ..." The least-satisfactory computer I've ever owned (won't even boot now) is a Toshiba with just such a chip -- wish I'd asked about that in the store.
What you are talking about is actually a good feature for many laptops. If you want to maximize your performance while depending on battery, check your BIOS while booting. There probably is some switch for gliding between max. power savings and max. performance.
These are desktop CPUs, which don't have speedstep, being used in laptops.
Did you bother to figure out what SmartStep/SpeedStep means?
If you did a modicum of research you would know that you run at a far slower speed in battery mode.
Now Toshiba DOES allow you to fix this setting (in the control panels) but this should not come as a surprise to any educated consumer.
When I was shopping around for a laptop for my wife we came across a darling little Toshiba Portege- and one of the first things mentioned in the CNET review even mentioned "Mobile Pentium III with Intel SpeedStep technology" and went on to explain what SpeedStep meant.
So when my wife types away in class if she can't find an outlet she can expect it to be slow. Easy Solution.
O.T. P.S.: is it my connect, or is slashdot slow today?
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
While I don't think any manufacturer specifies the speed of the machine to get the maximum amount of battery life, this article does not tell us what the speed of the mobile P4 is while it is in energy saving mode...
There are many reasons why Dell wants to put a desktop CPU in the machine, why don't they give the user the option of running it at full speed while on battery sacrificing battery life. I know my Apple PowerBook gives me several options on energy consumption while on battery, including running full out.
Anyway, no manufacturer states the speed of their machine while on battery. They usually state the battery life depends on configuration and use. Dell is no different. If you go to the specifications page on the 250N you will see that it states that Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery. It's not like they are hiding this information from the purchaser, learn to read the fine print. I don't think that this is enough to get that excited about...
What, me worry?
Yeah, all of Intel's mobile chips have this so-called Speed-Step "technology". An unusual way to describe a core clock throttle, but alright. When you're plugged into the wall, you run at the chip's advertised core clock, but use battery power and it scales down to some fraction of that.
Intel doesn't even advertise the lower core clock speed anymore for the P4, but on the P3-M 1 GHZ, the technology dropped the chip to 733 MHz when on battery power.
Pentium4 2.2 GHz tech specs.
Score: 5, Informative should, in this case, be Score: -1, Didn't Read The F'ing Article.
I quote: and So no, it is not a good feature for this laptop.four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
There's not a whole lotta difference between "mobile" and desktop processors other than packaging.
Desktop CPU's use PGA's that were designed for socketed use. The extra 4 millimeters from the pins sticking out is worth it because it means the CPU can be swapped in and out. Flexibility is the goal here.
Mobile processors usually come in a BGA package because they're soldered directly to the motherboard via wave solder, or UV cured solder. Since they don't have that extra 4 millimeters of pins sticking out the bottom, their profile is smaller than that of a desktop processor.
Right now though, it seems a lot of manufacturers are at least trying to make the newer laptops as flexible as a desktop by offering expansion busses to replace the laptops video card, processor, ram ect.
Remember 7 or 8 years ago when you wanted to get laptop memory? Everytime you wanted to upgrade you would have to order a custom stick because the manufacturers were all doing their own thing. Back then they thought they had to keep every vertical market on their laptop to themselves. There were a few exceptions to this rule (chembook was one of the first to start using standard desktop parts in their laptops)
I don't think it's a bad thing either... Sorta lets you get more life outta your laptop.
This is labed as a "SmartStep" computer.
Do a little research on the net.
FROM Dell's WEbsite:
Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery.
You have no legal recourse when they make full disclosure.
These are manufactured in bulk, not like a house. Besides, you wouldn't actually buy your house without a final walkthrough! Your legal recourse would be to not buy the house!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
From Dell's online ordering: Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery.
There is no excuse for not reading this.
If you wonder "Gee, how much does it limit processor speed?" You should put down your credit card and start researching.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Here's an interesting article on this. It's by a seller of discount laptops so it's a little biased, but still interesting. Main points-- (1) a desktop CPU is cheaper, (2) many users have their laptops plugged in so power consumption is less relevant and (3) even desktop CPU's use less power than older CPUs.
http://www.powernotebooks.com/P4_Truth.php3
WILL
The point is Dell is using desktop CPU's in their SmartStep model laptops - and as a result these laptops don't behave like you would expect from a laptop using a 'Speedstep' compliant chip.
.. or buttons on the keyboard etc ..
Desktop CPU's are not compatible with Speedstep technology (Speedstep reduces speed - but allows the user to bypass this if need be within software)
The Dell SmartStep laptop actually reduces your speed by half in battery mode and this CANNOT be altered via software
Dell makes no mention of this fact on their website, product brochures, or any other material you would read before purchasing the laptop.
I just recently bought a Toshiba Satelite 1200 and have been pretty happy with the performance. It has a power managment console that allows you tell it what mode to run in. In the full power mode you run your processor at full power. One of the default modes is power conserve mode where you processor runs at lower and lower speeds as the power drains. However you can run the full power mode when running on just batteries, you just don't get as much battery life. I still find I get close to the advertised 3 hours. My two biggest complaints about the Toshiba is that the bottom tends to get hot, and there is no docking station port. All in all, really happy.
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As I recall the first company to use the "smartstep" approach to portable computing was Apple with the 5300 series. However their solution then (even better with OS X) was only to run the CPU at what was required. If you were on the road and needed all the CPU horsepower, you got it, but inbetween clicks and hard drive activity, the CPU throttled down.
As to the chips themselves, lower power RISC chips actually can be used in both desktops and laptops and you don't have to deal with this sort of engineering workaround of marketing. The other issue with using many desktop chips in laptops is heat. For instance, my mother purchased an Wintel laptop with a desktop chip that was designed with a huge fan on the bottom of the computer, so that if you actually placed it on your lap, you would block the fan and the laptop would overheat and shutdown. I bought her a Powerbook (the first Mac she ever owned) and she has never gone back to the Wintel crowd. It's thin, it's light and she always has all the power she needs battery or AC power.
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The RISC based PowerPC designs run a lot cooler and more energy efficient than any recent Intel/AMD chips. That's why there's no 'mobile' versions of those processors.
Of course, some smartass is going to say that Macs are running at half speed already. All I can say about that is that my 3 year old iMac runs everything I need pretty good, save for 3D games.
"Common Sense Ain't" -Unknown
As I understand it, the SmartStep systems with desktop CPUs are targeted toward a business-traveller market that just wants a portable high-power system. They don't care about battery life, since they can plug it in when they're in a conference room, with projector attached. What they want is raw performance. As has already been noted, you'd do well to research your purchases in the future.
These people looked deep into my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined.
If you bought an old Mustang and found out it was a four cylinder POS and not an eight cylinder monster would you feel cheated?
.8 Ghz faster than my current 1.2 Ghz computer."
I would feel cheated if the dealer told me it was an eight cylinder mark2, and expected me to do extra research to find out that the mark2 eight cylinder engine would disable half the cylinders whenever I took it out of the driveway.
The problem has two possible solutions (and I'd recommend a combination of both):
1. Consumers should better educate themselves before buying, or
2. Companies should avoid using misleading advertisements.
Most folks see a laptop ad that says "2.0 Ghz processor featuring SpeedStep technology," but only come away believing that "this new 2.0 Ghz computer is
We've seen similar naming problems with 3d graphics cards. Geforce4 MX (slower than Geforce 3ti) vs. Geforce 4 4600 (faster than 3ti), or Radeon 9700 vs. Radeon 9700 Pro. Sometimes "Pro" or "Deluxe" means better. Other times "Pro" or "Deluxe" means crappier. (Ok so deluxe usually means crappier, but you get my point)
I think the main problem stems from the fact that computer performance cannot be fairly conveyed in a few convenient, marketable numbers. AMD has been combating that status quo with their XP naming scheme; Athlon Tbird 1.4 Ghz vs. new Athlon XP 1600 (runs at 1.4 Ghz) vs. Pentium 1.6 Ghz.
So, who is responsible for getting the information to the customer that speedstep technology would significantly slow down their portable computer whenever they go on battteries?
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Two things...
First, Megahertz Myth aside, an iBook running at full speed would still likely be slower the a P4-2Ghz system running at half speed... Remember iBooks still us G3 processors. (Now iBooks have up to 6 hour battery life, run a better OS, and are just cool... but from a performance standpoint...)
Second, Macs can also run with reduced processor performace to add battery life... It's an option in the OS X 'Energy Saver' control panel. No idea if it's default or not.
--- Nothing To See Here ---
That being said, every state in the US has a version of the Uniform Commercial Code. Section 2-313 deals with Express Warranties. Any affirmation of fact or promise or description of the goods creates an express warranty which is breached if the goods sold and delivered do not conform to the factual affirmation or description or if the promise made is broken. For example, if the processor speed is labeled as 1 GHz, the consumer is entitled to rely on the 1 GHz measure. A split 1 GHz/500 MHz ration when running on AC/battery does not conform to the affirmation of fact (processor speed) made by the merchant and could be said to breach the express warranty.
Section 2-314 is the Implied Warranty of Merchantability. The warranty is created simply by virtue of making the sale. If the goods sold are not such that would pass without objection in the trade then the warranty has been breached. Here, the argument would be that the industry creates mobile versions of chips for laptops because of battery life concerns. If someone wants to depart from that practice and use a speed slowdown to reduce power consumption, then that fact must be disclosed and agreed-to by the consumer prior to the sale. Otherwise, the consumer is entitled to rely on the standard practice when making the purchase. Such undisclosed use of "slowed" desktop processors would not pass without objection in the trade and could be said to breach the implied warranty of merchatability.
Additionally, virtually every state has a "Little FTC Act" or Consumer Protection statute. These statutes outlaw "unfair or deceptive" business practices. Breaches of warranty are usually automatic violations of these statutes. The penalty is usually up to three times your damages (for example, the cost of your laptop times 3) plus attorneys fees if you hire a lawyer.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Recently they started putting a interesting "disclaimer" on the laptops they sell (I checked specs pdfs for 1905 and 5202 series, but it seems like they all got one appended):
Central Processing Unit ("CPUE Performance Disclaimer:
CPU performance in your computer product may vary from specifications
under the following conditions:
use of certain external peripheral products
use of battery power instead of AC power without changing factory
pre-set power management settings
use of certain multimedia games or videos with special effects
use of standard telephone lines or low speed network connections
use of complex modeling software, such as high end computer aided
design applications
use of computer in areas with low air pressure (high altitude >1,000
meters or >3,280 feet above sea level)
use of computer at temperatures outside the range of 5C to 35C
(41F to 95 F) or >25C (77F) at high altitude (all temperature
references are approximate).
Under some conditions, your computer product may automatically shut-down.
This is a normal protective feature designed to reduce the risk of lost
data or damage to the product when used outside recommended
conditions. To avoid risk of lost data, always make back-up copies of data
by periodically storing it on an external storage medium. For optimum
performance, use your computer product only under recommended
conditions. Read additional restrictions under "Environmental ConditionsEin
your product Resource Guide. Contact Toshiba Technical Service and
Support for more information.
Wow, you mean, my new laptop will not perform as advertised, and might actually just TURN OFF while I am NORMALLY using it? Why the heck would I want to spend $2.5k for a Satellite 5205 to find out it will clock down to half speed while "being used" and then if I "use it too much" will just simply shutdown?
To the story author, be happy you didn't buy from toshiba or else you'll be retyping your report each time Toshiba engineers decide its time for your new laptop to turn off to protect itself from overheating.
When I purchased my HP laptop around 2 years ago, all I had to do was click on the little "SpeedStep" icon in the system tray, and then select the option to NOT cut the CPU time in half when running on battery power. I remember this utility being an Intel program so if you don't have it on your computer, I would contact the manufacturer and tell them to send you a copy of the utility.
Intel charges more for P4-Ms than P4-desktops for a reason. The P4-M has a whole slew of features to save power, not the least of which is SpeedStep.
SpeedStep drops the CPU's voltage as well as the frequency when it goes into battery-optimized mode. The laptop in question just throttles the CPU. That's bad.
You get what you pay for. Look for laptops with a "P4-M" chip. Do some homework, and you can get a reasonably power-efficient laptop.
My point was that the powerbooks get good battery life even without flipping it down to reduced, when it comes to trolling I admit nothing... nothing!
Speedstep is a fairly easy thing to research; they make a point of saying that laptops have it.. it's quite clearly labeled as such....
And a speedstep enabled machine will let you run it at full clock all the time if you want to, easily. For instance, my laptop has a nice button on the windows system tray that lets me flip it between different cpu settings.
In this case, the laptop does NOT have speedstep, it's a desktop processor, and the laptop is basically hardwired to run it at half speed when the AC is disconnected, the user has absolutely no way to change this behavior.
It's not a common behavior, and one I think most readers here would not even know about until they looked in detail at those specific models of laptop.
No, Mhz is not an all-encompasing speed indicator. but it's still quite releveant, and the difference between 1Ghz and 500Mhz is rather large, especially when you are forking out several thousand dollars.
So, instead of "feeling dirty" because the people who designed your laptop were intelligent about it, why not "feel dirty" because you don't know enough about computers to understand why this is an issue, or maybe "feel dirty" because you've been sucked into the trap of thinking that clock speed is the be-all and end-all of computer performance.
This sounds alot like Ashton Digital. I came across them when searching for a cheap laptop (you can find a bunch of them on Yahoo Auctions).
:).
The interesting thing is that they aren't really notebooks in the normal sense in that they are more like "portable desktops", almost akin to the Osbourne, where all your stuff is in one easy to move around case.
I was tempted to get one because I tend to use my laptop in just this way, bringing it to work, or using it at home, and there is usually an outlet near by. Of course I decided against it, because my Comfy Chair(TM) isn't as convenient with a power cord pulling on me from my laptop, so I need batteries
Dell makes no mention of this fact on their website, product brochures, or any other material you would read before purchasing the laptop
Actually, Dell does. On the product web page.
Look at the actual web page detailing the computer.
First, see footnote #2. "Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery."
Then go up the page to where it has "Learn More" next to Processors, and click on it. That explains the difference between a Penitum 4 and a Pentium 4-M. Look at the "Details" tab and note the footnote on the Pentium 4 speeds that says "Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery."
Now, finally, note that there's no M after the processor name in the specs.
What does this mean? Dell both said that speed is reduced when running on battery AND that it isn't the mobile processor. All on the product web page.
" Just to add a little detail, it was in 1981. And yes, it was an ill-fated disaster."
To add a bit more detail
The V-8-6-4 was not the disaster many think it was. The dropable cylinder trick was a bandaid to boost fuel economy until they could release the notorious HT4100 aluminum V8 in 1982. They never *expected* to use it for long.
They only made the V-8-6-4 for one year and never really refined the controller for it. People disliked them because of the way they acted, not because they were problematic. You could unplug a few wires and it would run just like the normal V8. It was a 6.0 liter, and it was the last of the great line of Cadillac's iron V8's.
and its in about 75% of ALL laptops out on the market. all of the GOOD units should have a control for this in the power management settings for Winxxxx. :)
if you want to deal with the hassle of looking up part #s you can buy a non-speedstep mobo for an additional $500-1000
the history of the world
Let's say you decide to purchase the Dell SmartStep 250N. Here's a link: http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/products/model_inspn _1_inspn_200n.htm
Suppose you are interested in the specifications of the P4 processor for this system. There's a handy link labeled "Learn More About Processor Performance". Click on the Details tab. The 200N/250N are listed clearly, as is scripted #1. Time to check the fine print. "Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery". None of the other laptops listed have this notice.
Also, be sure to review the Tech Specs for this system. You will find the exact same information given for the CPU specs. Admittedly, there are no neon lights pointing to this information, but it is plainly available.