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Tivo and SonicBlue Settle Dispute

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the corporations-playing-nice dept.

Shippy writes "According to this article at the Stereophile Guide to Home Theatre, Tivo and SonicBlue have decided to dismiss all patent-infringement claims 'without prejudice' and instead focus their energies on energizing the DVR market. 'We believe our energies are better spent expanding the market for DVRs rather than fighting each other,' the former adversaries said in a joint statement. The article also discusses their plans for marketing and also how they plan to respond to criticisms that the DVR market is doomed."

37 of 194 comments (clear)

  1. oh. my. god. by mrpuffypants · · Score: 4, Funny

    competing companies working together?

    prepare for meltdown in 3.....2....1....

  2. without prejudice by Alien54 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "all patent-infringement claims 'without prejudice'"

    IANAL

    but if I read this right, this means that if they feel like suing each other over this in the future because they have a falling out, they are completely free to call in the lawyers and have at it.

    Sort of like two mafioso movie types, each with a shot gun at the throat of the other. Backing off might be a smart move.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
  3. As a Replay owner... by aslagle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I agree with this totally...there's more than enough market share out there for both SonicBlue and Tivo. We need to educate people about PVRs, and the functionality that the media is trying to remove from them...not spend money on lawsuits like this.

    1. Re:As a Replay owner... by brianosaurus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Totally! I mean, what market only has one option? There's room for PLENTY of competitors. Look at the rest of the consumer electronics market: Sony, JVC, Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Toshiba... Competition is good.

      When I bought my ReplayTV, my friends were all telling me "You should have gotten a Tivo. Tivo will win." Neither will "win". They'll both do just fine for as long as they can. I happened to like the Replay user interface better, so I got it.

      In this case, since the whole DVR industry is under fire from the MPAA, and other like-minded nimrods, its a good idea for them to not fight with each other. I mean, what good will it do them to bankrupt the other on some patent if the whole industry gets shut down in the meantime.

      --
      blog
  4. Analogy by LoudMusic · · Score: 4, Funny

    I picture a running back (football for those less informed) charging down the field and a defender setting up to tackle him. Then BLAMO! the running back plasters the dude and keeps on going.

    The defender gets up, dusts himself off and says, "You know, I think you're right. Maybe we should just let this go and concern ourselves more with the offence. K?"

    --
    No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
  5. Won't be long until they merge by Loco3KGT · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The DVR market is hurting badly, and it won't be long until the two companies are forced to merge just to stay alive. Some markets can't handle competition (like the market paymybills.com exists in, it had to merge with a competitor just to stay afloat).

    My personal thoughts are it's the monthly charge that keeps this market from going anywhere (it's why I won't buy). But none the less, these two companies are ultimately going to merge or end up playing so nice with each other they'll be borderline illegal in their cooperation. At that point, the MPAA and big media might just encourage the government to investigate them.

    Or I could be entirely wrong :-)

    --
    Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
    1. Re:Won't be long until they merge by koreth · · Score: 3, Informative

      SonicBlue's boxes have no monthly fee. TiVo's machines are available with a lifetime service plan as well (you choose monthly or lifetime). So if it's just the monthly fee that's holding you back, have at it!

    2. Re:Won't be long until they merge by mrpuffypants · · Score: 3, Informative

      look again, because now sonic blue does have a monthly fee of $9.99 i believe, or you can buy a lifetime subscription for $250....

      i just came into some money and was thinking of buying one because of the no monthly fee, but then i saw that...back to VCR i suppose

    3. Re:Won't be long until they merge by jmoriarty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My personal thoughts are it's the monthly charge that keeps this market from going anywhere (it's why I won't buy).

      Honest question: Why? The subscription fee is for downloading the guide data only. Someone has to pay for the people, processing, systems, etc., to make that available. If it wasn't in a monthly subscription it would have to be factored into the purchase price of the boxes. This way seems to be a lot more accurate for the companies (Pay Per View), and more fair to the consumer (No $1,000 boxes to cover rapid changes in usage).

      Don't get me wrong, I'm a DirecTiVO owner and love it. I don't want to pay for anything I don't have to, but this seems a valid service that costs money to make available, so requires a payment to use.

    4. Re:Won't be long until they merge by koreth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This baffles me. You were about to buy one, you saw they had a new pricing option you weren't aware of and weren't interested in, and that caused the pricing option you were aware of and interested in to suddenly be unacceptable? What am I not seeing here?

    5. Re:Won't be long until they merge by koreth · · Score: 4, Informative

      FYI, you can hack a TiVo to be accessible from the net, but at present it's definitely a job for the technically inclined. (I've done it to both of my TiVos and it works great.) The network-enabled ReplayTV models are probably worth a look if remote access is high on your wish list.

    6. Re:Won't be long until they merge by Zathrus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The subscription fee is for downloading the guide data only

      No it's not!

      I wish people would stop saying this. Because it gives the naysayers a wedge -- the guide data is less than $3/mo in raw format (note - that particular guide data is nowhere close to the detail that the TiVo provides, but the naysayers ignore this).

      It's also not just to provide the guide data - which is an ever-reducing cost. DirecTiVos capture their data from the sat feed, which already provides it. Stand alone (SA) TiVos now get much of their data from late-night TV "shows" on cable TV, which is a much cheaper distribution method than TiVo paying AOL for local dialup access or for 800 access.

      So what, exactly, is the fee for then?

      The software. You are leasing the software, plain and simple. That's why you get free software upgrades, which contain new features, on a fairly regular basis. I bought my TiVo with v1.2 of the software on it. Since that time it's been upgraded to 1.3, 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0. And it keeps getting better and more useful.

      If you're against software leasing, fine. Don't buy one. If you want a PVR, but don't want the monthly fee or lifetime sub - go for it. Buy a TiVo and wipe the hard drive clean (or at least delete the proprietary bits). Because, frankly, you're not legally allowed to use the software that came on the drive (it requires a subscription), and if you think it has so little value then you can clearly build new software yourself.

      Funny that nobody's done that yet.

  6. PVR market isn't doomed... Tivo and SonicBlue are. by Shinzaburo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These companies have cranked out some very innovative products, for which they deserve much kudos and high praise. But between competition from the gatekeepers (cable and satellite TV companies), Japanese consumer electronics companies, and do-it-yourself PC-based solutions, they don't have much ground to stand on. Selling out to DirecTV or AT&T Cable while they still can is probably their best and safest bet.

  7. Question on licensing of technology by Alton_Brown · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From reading the article, it seems that both companies are getting pressure from other vendors who "are incorporating features into set-top boxes". Is this to say that these vendors are going at it alone? Why wouldn't they license the technology from one of these companies? Does this mean further diverging standards? It seems to me that Tivo could go to a DirecTV-like model by getting their technology licensed, subsidized and ultimately built-in to future hardware (I was recently suprised how many TV's have DirecTV built in). Am I missing something here??

    1. Re:Question on licensing of technology by victim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is exactly what I have. I have a Sony built DirecTV reciever with Tivo built in.

      The challenge for Tivo and Replay is to ensure that the TV and set top builders have to license their technology. It can't cost more than $1million to develop the code for a DVR. (Well it could, but it shouldn't.) If Tivo wants more than $1M/year return on their investment they have to legally prevent the TV builders from making and selling their own DVR software.

      If Tivo has well written patents they can use litigation, if they have shaky patents they can use the treat of litigation. If they have worthless patents they are out of luck. Maybe the reason to cancel the lawsuit is to avoid a legal precedent on which patents are valid? Maybe each company has amassed a body of prior art on the other's patents? Just guessing.

  8. A business model that forgets selfish patents... by HoldmyCauls · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...and focuses instead on furthering the technology?

    Sounds like radio with pictures; it'll never fly.

    --
    Emacs: for people who just never know when to :q!
  9. Nigh-Impossible to Market by callott · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everyone I know who owns a PVR (including me) says the same two things:

    -1) I love it and will never, ever give it up.
    -2) It's nearly impossible to explain why I feel this way to anyone who doesn't own a PVR themselves.

    IMO, #2 is the principal difficulty for SonicBlue and Tivo.

    -Cal

    1. Re:Nigh-Impossible to Market by deanj · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Man, ain't that the truth.

      People don't know what they're missing. One of my kids (less than 5) had no idea we couldn't watch her shows whenever we wanted to on one of the other (non-Replay) TVs.

      I never miss my favorite shows anymore.

      The day my Replay dies is the day I go out and buy another. There's no way I can do without this.

  10. Here is why... by burnsy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Because neither company can afford lawyers!

  11. DVR market is doomed??? by dane23 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "...they plan to respond to criticisms that the DVR market is doomed."

    Time Warner doesn't think it's doomed. They just launched the Explorer 8000 Digital Video Recorder here in Austin, TX.
    --


    Warning! Keep Out of Eyes! Wash Out with Water! Don't Drink Soap! Dilute! Dilute!
  12. interesting.... but.. by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The TIVO is still pretty much doomed.
    sonic blue at least let's me set the unit's clock, while the TIVO requires that I let them do it.

    until Tivo can be purchased and never allowed to dial home AND function properly as a Digital VCR (record at XX:XXpm for 1 hour call it foobar1) I and several others will never buy one.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:interesting.... but.. by sirinek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm interested to know whats so bad about TiVO. Frankly the clock issue isnt very important. I rely on my cell company's towers to set my phone's time and it doesnt bite me, why should a tivo be any different? I'm assuming its synchronized via ntp or something similar.

      I dont own a tivo but am considering it. How do you mean it cant function as a digital vcr while other PVRs can?

      siri

    2. Re:interesting.... but.. by Puk · · Score: 4, Informative

      Check here, which was the second google hit on "setting the tivo clock".

      E-E-Tivo - If in Debug mode (see C-C-E-E 2 below), lets you set the TiVo's clock. Warning: setting this value may cause all of your Guide data to get "expired". If you want to play with this, keep in mind that TiVo may get mad at you for downloading several copies of your Guide data over the course of a couple of days. The best way to fix a messed up clock without reloading all the Guide data is to do the "Make a Test Call" option. The format of the time entry you use is the same as the format for the settime command. (?)

      No, it's not ideal that they make you go through a backdoor to do it, but at least it's possible. Also, a test call might (or might not) work even if you weren't subscribed, but there's no real need. I agree that it should just be a menu option somewhere.

      -Puk

    3. Re:interesting.... but.. by RandomCoil · · Score: 3, Interesting
      until Tivo can be purchased and never allowed to dial home AND function properly as a Digital VCR (record at XX:XXpm for 1 hour call it foobar1) I and several others will never buy one.

      With all due respect, you don't "get" Tivo. That's ok, I didn't "get" it until I used it for a while. I received (won, actually) my Tivo a couple of years ago. I wasn't going to pay for the service; I was just going to use it as a digital VCR, as you describe.

      That idea lasted about a week.

      I would suggest that you and the "several others" who won't buy a Tivo without service talk to some people who do have the service and see what they think about. My guess is that they'll get a good laugh ar your suggestion that the service isn't worth it.
    4. Re:interesting.... but.. by ajs · · Score: 4, Informative

      so you would be happy if the cell company decided to remove the call history feature without telling you?

      If I subscribed to a software update service and that's what they did, I would complain to the cell phone company. Are you trying to tell me that being able to subscribe to software updates is wrong, or that their being on by default with TiVo is wrong? Or are you simply ill informed and think tha you cannot turn off the so-called "dial home" feature on a TiVo?

      I dont want them to and the only way to keep a TIVO running like it did when it was purchased is to not let it ever talk to the mother company.

      Horse hockey. There are a million kits out there for networking support, and the commands required to back your OS out to the network are VERY well documented on a great many sites.

      Personally, I don't bother. I vote with my customer support calls and my wallet. So far I've had to use neither, but the day may come when TiVo does something I'm unhappy with and don't want to keep. If they don't offer me an option to back out via customer service, I'll simply buy their competition's device.

      so, out of the box, no clock set so you cannot tell it to record at 10 pm

      This is also incorrect. You can log into the box and set the time with the "date" command just like any Linux box.

      You can also let it make the call in to set the time and get schedule information once and then use it as a digital VCR from then on in. Of course, you won't have all of the most important attributes of a TiVo (like the guide information and TiVo's suggestions), but that's your call.

      Let me repeat that for those in the cheap-seats: THAT'S YOUR CALL. You have a Linux-based DVR. Have fun.

      and if you let it call home and not subscribe... you get nice pop-up ad's all the time and many functions that should work are disabled. just look at the tivo forums for a list of funtions that do not require any of the guide data to function that are intentionally disabled to "convince" you to subscribe.

      I invite people to go have a look at these forums. You will find that the features that are disabled are basically all of the things that require a guide database.

      This TiVo paranoia is just silly. Buy the device and use it like they intend. If you find you don't like it 30 days later, take it back to the shop and get your money back and buy a ReplayTV. USE YOUR WALLET TO VOTE.

  13. Re:why I wont buy a DVR yet.... by Fatal0E · · Score: 4, Informative

    If the two reasons you cited are the only things keeping you from getting one then you haven't researched your options enough.

    You can get either a Tivo or a Replay-Thingy w/o a recursive cost and w/o a lifetime subscription.

    --

    BOSTON SUCKS!
  14. Fighting? by Doomrat · · Score: 5, Funny

    SonicBlue: U STOLE ARE TECHNOLOGEY!!!1!!! Tivo: FUK U!! SonicBlue: OMG WE CULD CONBINE ARE SKILLZ AND BE ElITE! Tivo: OMG!!!! YES!!11!!!!!!!!

  15. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  16. TiVO doomed... rubbish by rcs1000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    OK.

    Lets look at the last financial statements for TiVo inc. Quarter to July 31, 2002.

    Sales $23.9m, up about 6x. (Yep, c. 600%)
    Gross profit $16.3m

    Less R&D ($4.5m), Sales & Marketing ($5.6m & 3.4m), and General & Administrative ($1.1m).

    Operating loss for the quarter, $1.1m, against $34.5m a year ago.

    TiVo doomed? Do the math.

    --
    --- My dad's political betting
  17. What they are really trying to say... by Hyped01 · · Score: 3, Funny
    "According to this article at the Stereophile Guide to Home Theatre, Tivo and SonicBlue have decided: 'We believe that perhaps if we team up, we may have a chance at pushing our products onto the masses, since they are already being obsoleted by a dozen other initiatives that are coming built into future TV and HDTV products. With luck, we'll make enough money off of it that we'll have a few bucks in our pocket when we have to bail out sometime later down the road.' the former adversaries said in a joint statement.

    The article also discusses their plans for marketing and also how they plan to respond to criticisms that the DVR market is doomed." 'With luck and enough of a spin on it, perhaps we can pull enough wool over people's eyes that they dont realize that the DVR market is already dead... we're just hoping there are enough sheep in the world for all the wool we'll need for that feat.'

    At least, that's my translation of it...

    - Rob

    --

    WebMaster:
    BinFeeds
    XXX Thumbnailed Image Newsgroups but

  18. My favorite Tivo feature by Pr3d4t0r · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The "Back 8 seconds" button.

    You never realize how handy it is until it's not there. Also, I don't know how many times I wished I had just that button on my stereo: "Where was that accident? Speed trap, etc" again?

  19. That's the point. by srichman · · Score: 3, Informative
    Time Warner doesn't think it's doomed. They just launched the Explorer 8000 Digital Video Recorder...
    That's what they mean by "the DVR market is doomed:" It's doomed for companies that exclusively make DVRs because DVR features are being incorporated into cable and satellite providers' boxes:
    "TiVo and SonicBlue are feeling the pressure from cable companies and satellite services, which are beginning to incorporate DVR features into the latest versions of their receivers and set-top boxes (STBs)."
  20. Re:Classic case of patent division... by Zathrus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Uh... have you looked at either TiVo, Inc. or SonicBlue?

    They're hardly "megacompanies" or megacorps.

    Yes, this is precisely what they're going to do. Good for them. They thought of the idea first, implemented it (i.e. - they didn't just patent it and sit on their asses waiting for someone else to do it), and they expect to make a return on investment on it.

    What's so horrible about that? It's called capitalism. I find it ironic that you'd call it communism.

  21. Re:why I wont buy a DVR yet.... by erpbridge · · Score: 3, Insightful
    From Tivo's website (http://www.tivo.com/2.0.asp): TiVo offers a choice in subscription plans: monthly $12.95 or product lifetime $249

    Paying $12.95 a month for 20 months (better known as 1 year 8 months) is $259. So, if you plan on having your Tivo longer than 20 months, the product lifetime option is better. (throw that whole thinking out the window with DirecTivo, since they're $4.95 a month, it'd take about 53 months... 4 years 5 months... to break even)

    I had the same opinion (buy monthly, a new product is going to be forced on you every two years), and kept going monthly for my first 10 months. Then they had the monthly price increase, and let me buy at $199 lifetime. About 3 months ago I broke even, and am saving monry every month.

    That, and I believe on their site they have the option to transfer a lifetime sub onto another box (does this work for transferring a sub from a series 1 standalone to a series 2 standalone?)

  22. Manual Record by mrv · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Uh, my TiVo records a given channel start at X time and end at X time... It's under "Manual Record" or some similarly-named menu.

    If you never let it dial in (mine uses my local network (DSL) connectoin), then all you've got is a basic VCR with no program knowledge. I have heard of a hack where you can set up your own server for it to dial into for program guides, but I don't follow the Tivo hacking market much...

    --
    -mrv
  23. Re:Create a SubCompany that provides Show data by Zaknafein500 · · Score: 3, Informative

    They do. Both Replay and TiVo buy their guide data from Tribune Media Services. TMS provides guide data to just about every program guide provider in existence.

    --

    "The guide is definitive, reality is frequently inaccurate."
  24. A message from Canada by EulerX07 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hello dear companies. Now that you're getting along, could I PLEASE be permitted to buy your products. Me and my fellow canucks would very much like to prevent the doom of your market by welcoming you with open arms into our stores and give you our money, while it's still worth something. Now I know that you've been ignoring us for the few last years but we're willing to forgive you and pay for your services. Thank you for your attention... Oh, btw, Canada is that small country just north of the USA, you should be able to find quite easily.