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Microsoft vs. Modded Xboxes
hikeran writes "The Register has an article about how Xbox live service is now apparently banning Xboxes that have been mod chipped. Basically it seems this is one of the many uses of those unique id's used in Microsoft's software. Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service?? Be careful what you say.. you may be playing with an Xbox Live admin..."
Right or wrong, good move or bad, being as how its their service, Microsft can ban who ever the hell they want.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
I don't really see this as such a bad thing... My ISP does not support home networking, so they will not give help until the network is taken down and proven to not be causing the problem.. Microsoft's support team was not trained to deal with modded xboxes, so I can see why there would be a rule to not giving support to those with the mods done.
Slashdot uses the same rationale to justify its IP banning and $rtbl'ing. But hey, it's "M$", so it must be wrong!
Doesn't this just help maintain the integrity of the game play? Can't modded X-Boxen be altered to give unfair advantages by changing the software like players did in Unreal?
Btw, users can nark on anyone for foul language -- it doesn't have to be caught by an admin. (Again, foul language seems to mainly come from 13-year olds who think it makes them sound older.)
It'll help keep cheaters off XBox Live. A cheat-free online game experience is something most people I know would give their first-born for.
And as fair as the implication that Microsoft banning people who've modded their XBox, as soon as you modded your XBox, stop whining and just take some responsibility for your actions. It's not like you didn't know full well what you were getting yourself into when you cracked open the case and started messing around with a soldering iron.
NO CARRIER
If you don't like MS's terms, just don't use it... Vote with your money... don't buy the XBOX, don't buy XBoxLive...
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
the 5th ammendment says "Congress shall not ...inhibiting free speech"
Since when is Microsoft the U.S. Congress?
I'm all for modchips in Xboxes, it's one of the large reasons I use them (I helped work on them before the protection scheme got cracked.) However, I believe it is fair for Microsoft to ban the use of modchips on their Xbox Live service. We all know that Microsoft loses money on their Xboxes, and the regain it with the games. If a player is costing them money, I don't believe they have a right to complain when they can't utilize another (in my opinion) underpriced service. Further, this won't stop everyone, as dual-BIOS setups (one with the regular BIOS and one with the modified chip) for the Xbox have been around for ages.
As much as I hate to admit it, I'm torn between my hatred for the heavy-handed M$ action, and the proported resoning that it will help prevent cheating in their online games.
Nothing destroys a game community faster than the proliferation of cheaters. And, the Xbox stands to profit nicely if it can develop those communities (it's certainly not profiting without them). If I pay my hard-earned money every month to play an online game, the last think I want is to have no chance to fairly compete.
On the other hand...is that what's happening, or is this just another excuse to enable the control freaks at M$ to continue their reign?
Chaos, panic, disorder...my work here is done.
I'm a game producer that has worked on online games, I will say that this is a very good thing. You don't know the trouble that we go through to make sure that people do not cheat in an online game and you know what, they figure out a way around it anyway. This is the first time that we have hardware level control over the game .exe's integrity. With MS's code sign system the game .exe is not hackable and this is a good thing for all of us. Hacking RUINS online games and if this is what they have to do to stop it then ok.
Why would they want to be responsible for some hacker bringing down their server because they hacked their box to do [fill in the blank] and screwed with some important protocol or something that causes their server to crash?
As for using foul language... what is your problem with that? Again, their server, they make the rules. You are not entilted to anything. If you have problems with their rules, than I suggest you don't buy one. Oh, and anti-language rules are relatively common in MMRPGs so it's not like that would be so shocking either. I actually prefer to play games with others who do not continuously spam my screen sexually immature comments.
Where is all the outrage about all those stickers on your components that say "warranty void if removed"? Or do you only rant about Microsoft (that was rhetorical).
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
Microsoft aren't doing anything illegal here, put simply - to use xbox live you require an original microsoft xbox.
:)
People should be free to mod their hardware as they see fit (since it's theirs).
This is a bit like me fitting rocket boosters to the back of my car and driving it around at 200 mph. Sure i can do it and that's probaly legal. Driving it on public roads is of course not.
Anyway i thought everyone that bought xbox mod chips wanted them to make them into linuXBoxes - what the hell will they be doing with xbox live, what they realy need access to is apt-get live
I will admit that not everyone uses modchips for legal purposes, but there are many uses for them other than pirating games. With a modchip, you can write and run your own code, and run Linux, things you cannot do on an unmodified box.
So I buy an Xbox, have it connect through a sniffing proxy (a linux box with a modem and a serial nullmodem connection). Then I mod it, do the same. At this point, I should be able to start spoofing Xboxen, with fake or even strategically chosen GUIDs. That asshole that beat me at Q3 3 times last sunday? He better hope his GUID isn't available to me through my proxy. The admin who chewed me about about saying "cunt" in the #kindergarden area of Xbox Live? He better hope I can't find his GUID.
Hell, you might even just start carpet-bombing things. I can imagine even writing a little worm, that goes out hitting cable modem users, who still have a dialup. Late at night, it dials out to the service, and spoofs a modded Xbox. Hundreds of them, thousands of them. This could be fun...
I mean, there are cryptographic methods that could prevvent something like this, but after all, we are talking about M$.
William Hello and welcome to the Xbox interactive online chat support! My name is William.
...so which is the "superior gaming" platform and which is the "semi-PC"? ;)
Jon Do you have my question or do i have to type it again.
William Microsoft will defend the gaming experience for our users on Xbox Live, and will not approve the use of any game cheating devices for the Xbox gaming platform. This is a violation of the Xbox Live Terms of Use. If users attempt to access Xbox Live with an Xbox installed with modified hardware or unapproved software, their Xbox will be blocked from accessing the service now and in the future. Microsoft reserves the right to take other appropriate action in the future, which could include canceling the user's subscription.
Jon So when Microsoft said we wont take action they were just lying
William No, the software for catching and blocking hadn't been fully perfected before.
Jon People use the mods to access music, movies, and pictures for legit reasons. So i guess to play online and acess data on a pc I should go with a Sony.
Jon So is the account blocked or is the xbox itself blocked
William The Xbox itself, the account is actually useable on a new console. The original console with the chip will never work again even if it is removed.
Jon OK. Thanks for your help. I'm off to buy a Sony.
William Thank you for using Xbox Interactive Online Support. I hope that you have found our session today helpful. For your convenience, you will receive by e-mail a detailed transcript of our chat, including all site links, with a ticket number for your future reference. At the end of the chat, there will be a small survey. Be sure to fill it out! If you need further assistance, please come back and visit us again.
Jon Thanks and I'll tell Sony how great Microsoft has been in convincing me in buying a PS2
William I guess it depends on whether you want superior gaming or semi-PC possibility. Either way have fun!
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On a side note, I'm saving the $50 I would've spent on XBOX Live. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. You claim you're losing money by people modding their Midways? What WTF do you think is happening if you won't even let them PAY for a service like XBL?
Of course, it's worth noting that the article says nothing about banning for using foul language. It's what I like to call a "story troll" like the headline about GM corn yesterday.
It'll help keep cheaters off XBox Live. Up until someone comes up with a way to report a different "unique" ID, and a way to make it not detect the mod chips.
No modchips to let you cheat :-)
It's not unprecedented either. Drop in a modchip on your cable converter to get HBO for free and see how fast your cable company splices YOUR wire when they find out.
Hack YOUR copy of quake or unreal and see how many anti-cheat servers will let you log on if they discover you're not running the default client.
It's very, very simple. If you don't like the rules, don't join the service.
Nonsense. Whilst modding the box allows an opportunity to pirate, it also provides a number of different services ... even to run Linux on the thing. It's only a specific type of use of this technology which is piracy. Remember when this same old argument was taken up to try to stop VCR's?
This pre-emptive 'you must be a pirate because you use this technology' argument has been dribbling from the chins of many organisations, it would be laughable if it wasn't for the fact it's being taken seriously.
Robert Anton Wilson
Since free speech is usually considered a basic human right, it doesn't really matter who is inhibiting it. Just because the first amedment says the gov't can't do it, doesn't mean that anyone else can.
addressing Darth Vader: "the more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers"
The reason I bring this up is because game players loyalty is only so strong. Keep trying to steer them toward your revenue vice and they'll just walk away. Better to work with them, you may lose a little, but you gain so much more with a loyal following.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Again I reiterate that it's probably a smart move for MS to block modded boxes as they can then run software which could take advantage of a MS security lapse in the network, as well as make future customers think twice about mod chips.
I have the Live service and where I do tend to disagree with a great many things that MS has done and continues to do, I do agree with this. Any device that modifies the XBox, such as a modchip could also likely be used to load modified code that would and will most assuredly be used by pinhead assholes to cheat. Having seen this type of cheating on the PS2 with certain online games, and also with just about every online PC game I have no sympathy for the people who do this and get banned.
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but what if this was say, aoltimewarnercnn-multi-whatever, and they banned users off their network if they were found to be running linux? and used the excuse "All of our complaints and legal inquiries involving hacking and spam ended up resolving to end users that ran linux, so we've made this proactive step to ensure a secure online enviroment for our customers."
Total BS, but what can an end user do about it? Ask for a refund? "Sorry , TOS violation, suck it."
Its not all that far-fetched....
This modchip issue has been quite the 'problem' lately in the Xbox 'scene'. I, like many others, have a modchip in my Xbox, and also have Xbox Live! Now, how is this possible?
It's actually a matter of simply installing a switch. When I'm using Xbox Live!, I simply use the switch to disable my Enigmah modchip (use a DPDT switch for wires 15 and 21). That turns off the modchip, and there's no conceivable way that Microsoft can detect the presence of the chip because the voltage going to the chip is simply shut-off.
If a person wants to use their modded Xbox, do not go on Xbox Live! What this means is that one should disconnect the network cable going to their Xbox when the chip is enabled, and presto.
So that's how to by-pass Microsoft's pseudo-detection. The overarching issue, however, is if Microsoft has a right to 'ban' modchip users from the Xbox Live! service. Arguably, they do because their is always the possibility of users downloading 'hacks' and 'cheats' for Xbox Live! enabled games. This would obviously be 'unfair' to other legitimate users, as well as Microsoft. And obviously, they have a right to protect their service.
Perhaps someone may argue that the modchip detection deters piracy. Maybe, but the amount of people who have the technical skills to install a modchip are arguably a negligible amount. In my case, soldering ~ 30 wires for my chip was a huge hassle. I doubt any of my friends and collegues could have done so. Nor would they even bother. How many people really want to run Linux on their Xbox just because it can be done?
In the end, if a person has the 'smarts' to install a modchip (even if it is the no-solder Matrix/Xodus chip), they should also have the intelligence to forsee that using such a chip has obvious consequences.
If you play EQ and use a hack like ShowEQ and they find out about it. Guess what? You're banned. No refund, banned. Even though it is a service that you paid for and you are just running programs on your own computer, all the other things you are griping out. So come on folks, get off of MS for once EVERY online game service has this provision. You play the game on the service fairly or you are banned, end of story.
No, but if the manufacturer refused to service the car because someone put a mod-chip in the onboard computer to get more HP out of it, and put it back to normal before they sold it to me. I would be pissed off at the manufacturer because there is nothing wrong with the car. If the chip was still in the car when I took it in for service, then that would be a different story.
As much fun as I know you would all have, an unregulated XBox in such an environent is akin to dropping a pirahana into a salmon farm. The point of Live is that it's a level playing field. A closed circuit. My box isn't souped up and neither is yours. I don't have to worry about you having some script that'll ping my connection to death, auto-aim for you or whatever because you're running Linux behind the scenes. I didn't say you would do that, but we both know there are plenty of assholes that would like nothing better than to gut Microsoft's gaming network from the inside. "Look ma! I'm 133t!". You may even be legitimately using your mod to increase hard drive space or store stuff other than the MS sanctioned material. Which is fine. But their's a trade off you're going to have to decide on. In fact, I'm betting that if you were smart enough to mod your XBox, you were smart enough to see this very real possiblity on the horizon and now you actually have the nerve to bitch about it. I can't count how many times I posted here to that effect either. there are simply too many tricks MS can pull with this quasi-computer of theirs.
So does Mullet feel sorry for you because you thought you were sticking it to the man by getting a $300 (now $200) machine with an advanced graphics card, only to find out one of it's key features has been disabled in modding it? Fuck. No.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
" You mean you actually have to *gasp* buy the games to play them online? (...) Blizzard has been doing this forever"
Actually no, they haven't. A single Blizzard CD can be used to install up to 8 "spawn" installations that will let you play multiplayer games while only buying one copy of the game. Even on Battle.net. You can't play the one-player campaigns and (on the older games) you don't get CD sound, but other than that... You can even do this with Warcraft III.
Personally, I wish more game companies had this kind of attitude. It shows they're more concerned with gamers having fun than squeezing every cent out of games for the bottom line. Of course, with most Blizzard games, you don't really need that kind of incentive to want to go out and buy the game. Which brings me right back to "I wish more game companies were like this."
I never thought I'd be stepping up to defend the big M but I think that you're missing the point. 1. I like the xbox live, it keeps me sane when I need to play games instead of smashing my client's head open in frustration. Games with modded xboxs will give rise to cheating and then live will cease to be a fun place to play. 2. It's not like Microsoft is using questionable business tactics here, they're protecting their investment on an enterprise that is currently operating at a loss. Why would any company just turn a blind eye to theft? You wouldn't stay in business very long. 3. If you want to mod your xbox, that is, alter something that was designed to be a closed system, then go ahead. But please don't expect the world to bow down because you think it's your god given right to steal from game developers. Besides, if you're that into gaming, buy another xbox for online play. Of course, if you do buy an "straight" xbox then I guess you'll have to actually start supporting the developers who make those games afterall. Wow, let me shed a tear for the poor little kid living in his parent's basement. In conclusion, Video Games are not a right. If you want to better the world and reduce monopolies, go use Linux and quit bitching about capitalism. Regards, A REALLY TICKED OF GAMER....
Happiness is a slider variable
Just a couple things I'd like to know about this situation which is quite humerous to me, at least.
1. A modded X-Box will probably eventually start generating "Unique" IDs of their own, possibly each start up or every time you tell it to. How long it'll take to actually do this is questionable, but the whole mod chip running things sort of points out that this whole setup won't work unless you start banning more than specific UIDs.
2. All the remarks about cheating, see #1. While anti-cheat tools make it harder to cheat by forcing you to appear that you're not cheating, at some point the connection to the physical box is just data and any data can technically be manipulated. Whether or not it'll be done in a reasonable amount of time might, however, might make it unreasonable for most people so at least in that they've served that purpose, but it doesn't fix #1 since the same people who spent all the effort to mod their X-box in the first place have a pretty large incentive to mod again their x-box to void the whole setup scheme (read PS1 mod chips, mod chip detectors, and future generations of stealth mod chips).
3. Banning people for modding their systems is bogus. Read #2. Those who are motivated enough can, if given sufficient time, cheat. This is true with or without mod chips. Encryption, hashing, etc are what is meant to protect the X-Box in the first place from inserting "invalid" code. Mod chips might be able to let you run arbitrary programs, but unless MS and co. are complete morons, they're encrypting all traffic to/from each X-Box system to avoid sniffing. You still can't debug an X-Box very easily and while you might be able to run arbitrary programs, you still need to use the system keys to run the games involved. So, if that's given you're back to doing physical tapping to attempt to read the unencrypted code at some step.. Or you could always try to brute force check all the encrypted output. In any case, all this amounts to is a very small and arbitrary additional barrier to #2. So, modding a system is more about a "we don't like mods" than any nature of true protection for gamers or their network at large. After all, an X-Box is just a computational device so it's not like using it to run arbitrary programs makes it any more of a threat than any other equally fast/bandwidth capable device. And the data coming in is still just data so it can always be sniffed. UIDs just make it harder but that won't stop people, just will slow them down.
So, all this rant amounts to is apparently a vain attempt to slow down the modding of systems in the hopes it'll actually prevent modders from getting on the network. Good luck with that, MS. Hope that works out well. If you've written a secure enough system with encryption and signings at every turn, you may make the system so unreasonable to break that no one but a tiny few will bother attempting to break your system for their own needs. If not, you're back to square one.
I'll volunteer. I am well out of the FBI's reach.
Ceterum censeo microsoft esse delendam. It had to be said.
+++ath0
that lets xbox users cheat? i mean how prevalent is this for xbox users (or ps2, gcn, etc.)? i haven't even heard of such a thing (most modchips just allow nongame code and nonregion games or movies to run), however i don't doubt their existance or probability in the future though...
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
...I can tell you that the average consumer isn't going to have any problems with this. Most of these folks don't even know what a mod chip is, and wouldn't install one if they did. Most folks are basically honest, and they just get even more honest if you inform them that they won't be able to play online if they install a mod chip. Furthermore, I would be willing to bet that the "average consumer" will actually be in support of it. I'm constantly hearing people complain about the rampant cheating in various game communities. If Microsoft takes an active role in banning those who abuse their services & hardware it'll be seen as a step towards eliminating cheaters.
The folks who do care about mod chips usually fall into two categories - collectors and pirates. The pirates want mod chips so they can play all their games without having to pay for them...and honestly, I can't think they'd be terribly surprised by getting banned. The collectors usually want mod chips so they can import games that aren't available here in the US...but that really isn't a problem (yet) with the Xbox. Sure, there are also some other folks who mod their Xboxes...tinkers and developers and such...but again, I don't think they'd be very surprised to get banned.
yrs,
Ephemeriis
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
With a modded XBox it may be possible for you to modify a game and play it online with a super charactor. or in other words cheat. and I am willing to bet the security on XBox live is weak at best without the getting that key. There is nothing that makes playing online games more fustration when people hack their software so they have super stats and kill all the honest players who are playing with all the balance code built in. Then when you get a bunch of cheaters most of the honest people will just stop playing the game and not use XBox Live. I am willing to bet sometimes when they try to do something that we think has pure evil porposes it may be to help their other users. But I still think if they stopped making Crappy Software and price them fairly then they dont need to worry about all this extra protection.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Online gamers are hilarious when they get miffed about cheaters. Spoils their clean little virtual world, it does.
Bottom line is:
In the real world, people cheat. Often.
evolution IS god.