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Microsoft vs. Modded Xboxes
hikeran writes "The Register has an article about how Xbox live service is now apparently banning Xboxes that have been mod chipped. Basically it seems this is one of the many uses of those unique id's used in Microsoft's software. Next up bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service?? Be careful what you say.. you may be playing with an Xbox Live admin..."
bannings for using foul language on Xbox live service
Is this bad because it is Microsoft? Or because your 5-year-old's 1st ammendment rights are being violated?
I agree - but they should at least refund people's money or properly warn them in the first place.
Well, if you had read the article, you would see that there are quite a few non-modded boxes that are experiencing the same problem as the modded ones. They are pissing off a lot more than the pirates here.
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Uh, you're a moron.
It's so that people can't cheat. Cheating ruins the gaming experience, and unlike online gaming, Xbox users cannot simply switch to another server. Xbox Live users who are being affected by cheaters will simply stop subscribing to Xbox Live. In Microsoft's case, cheating directly affects Microsoft's bottom line. Microsoft has ever reason to wipe it out. And i'm glad that Xbox Live gives me the ability to have fun, in a cheat-free environment. No more accusations of being a 'wallhacking hax0r', or a 'aimbot'.
Is it me or is the title of the article a little out there?
"MS accused of banning mod chip Xbox from Live service"
They later go on to say,
"...we're already seeing how unique hardware IDs could be used in anger by certain companies."
Well goddamn. I know microsoft is evil, but come on. Just because you don't want to follow the rules, doesn't mean they'll let you play with there toys. And I'm sure Xbox Live is burried in enough EULA's and of course backed with enough laweyrs to prove it.
I would have no problem if this article was rewritten as a non-attack on microsoft, and more as an informative article. Who's accusing them? I'm fairly damn certain,
"MS Found guilty of locking out modding bitchez from Xbox Live, Snoochie Boochies!"
All your fault. You cracked the case. You installed the chip, or had it installed.
--
I'm not anti-mod here either before the flames roll in. I'll be waiting for something worthwhile to mod my Xbox. As an added benefit of waiting for something worthwhile, if I do mod my Xbox modchips will be several years more mature.
Computational Madness in a round package.
It does talk about an interesting situation though with the future of Palladium. Where a lifetime (of the product) ban can be enforced. This could be very difficult on a computer where sometimes even a person who doesn't ever rip a CD/DVD/TV streams can by mistake and without knowledge play content that has been taken without permission.
This could especially be a problem if some malicious person were to put together a e-mail virus that could act as such content, and in effect cripple massive amounts of computers...
Microsoft is allowed to ban whoever they want, for whatever reason.
This is very similar to what sattelite providers have done. Some have used eeprom updates that completely ruined systems that had pirated cards. Microsoft in turn is banning users who have used illegal mod chips which in turn could let a user use pirated games. This is no different than blizzard using serial numbers to prevent people from playing online using pirated versions of their products (blizzard is a prime example of a company that tries hard to curb piracy, despite many attempts to hack their protection such as bnetd).
Most importantly though, if you don't like MS's perfectly legal tactics, you have the perfectly legal solution of not buying their products.
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
If people want to mod their XBoxes, Microsoft should have no say in what they can do with what they purchased. I think we can all agree on that. Now, if Microsoft wants to ban modded XBoxes from their service, who are you to say what they can or can't do? This is much like what happened with the bnetd people. Blizzard didn't want bnetd clients to connect to their servers (because of issues with cheat protection and the like), so they blocked them.
If you don't like what Microsoft is doing with XBox Live, don't pay for the service. Or better yet, don't but a XBox! Hell, you could even make your own XBox Live service for all the banned boxes if you felt so inclined. Their rules may be stupid, but it's their house, and it's their rules. If you don't like them, go elsewhere.
Knowing how things always seem to happen, lets see how long it is before someone comes up with a way to make your X-Box report a different ID than it's original one, giving those people who got banned many extra chances.
It also allows you to play imported games or try and develop stuff for the X-Box.
Tim
Omnia vestra castrorum habetur nobis.
As for the implication about swearing, GOOD! I don't mind a "Damn" when something happens now and then, but if I want to hear non-stop-increadibly-vulgar-peel-the-paint-off-eve ry-single-thing-within-ten-miles swearing, I'm sure I could go find that somewhere. But I don't want to hear it when I'm trying to play on online game. If you can't deal with not doing good in a stupid game without shouting enough obscenities to make all nuns on your contenant have a heart attack, then you need some serious help. I've been using Live a little (I got into the beta) and I haven't heard much of it, but I am expecting a certain level of maturity when I play online (about age 7). The constant idiotic trashtalking is anoying too, and people who make tons of sexual references and innuendo. I HOPE MS bans people who do this repeatidly. Considering that they are positioning this as something for kids, they most definatly should controll that sort of thing.
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If you don't like the terms on the service offered, then just don't use it. This is the whole point of capitalism, if the majority are dissatisfied with a service, a competing service which satisfies this majority will have great potential por profit. Go start one.
Then we could connect to the live service and get microsoft to bann a twenty thousand Xbox numbers.
Just go in sequential order and make them think there are 30-40K Xbox's out there with mod chips in them. Perhaps if all thier customers were banned microsoft would rethink thier stance on it and open it up.
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I don't understand why people are making such a big deal about this; as far as online gaming on a console goes, what's the difference between banning hardware mods and banning unfair software mods? This type of banning has been done since the first multiplayer games. Albeit the mod-chip is intended for a good use, but just like allowing software to ignore and allow mods, letting it go would just be an opportunity for the lamers of the community to abuse the power and ruin it for everybody. I suppose I'm playing the devil's advocate, but I think that Microsoft certainly has the right to do this. Heck, if you're going to be doing X-Box hacking, why doesn't anyone make a new mod-chip to connect to mod-chip specific network?
>> Up until someone comes up with a way to report a different "unique" ID, and a way to make it not detect the mod chips
Just like the keygens for Half Life and Quake 3, right?
Oh wait. Unique keys. With a central database containing all valid keys, and associating them with a MAC address.
More likely, you might see rogue servers set up, which would fit the bill for things like Unreal Championship.
Personally, I'm not excited about the idea of paying a subscription to play a game that'd benefit perfectly fine from a decentralized, P2P method of online play, like UC or some sports titles. There's no need for an online community. I hate online communities, they're full of idiots. Just look at this one.
Hopefully MSFT and Sony realize this, and start releasing some games that allow me to just connect to my kid brother and beat the crap out of him from 500 miles away, without having to 'log in' and pay a bill.
Until then, I'll just keep filling my shelves with nice free pirated single player games, and not bat an eye at the xbox lives policies.
As for this 'news' that never was - it's been known for a long, long, long, long time within the mod world that xbox live would not allow chipped consoles.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I was just wonering if anyone knows for certain how Microsoft is id'ing these boxes. I only ask because it seems to me to be a simple thing for Microsoft to simply use a processor ID. The X-Box uses an Intel pentium chip and I know Intel used to, or still does, put an id number in their chips. Many bioses even allow you to choose if you want to enable the processor ID. It seems that this would be the best way for Microsoft to identify the suspect boxes as if it was software related then eventually Microsoft could assume that a hack would come out that would change the offending boxes ID. It seems to me that these are the only two ways Microsoft could be doing this besides perhaps a unique id in the bios but that would perhaps create production issues and again allow for "easy" reprogramming.
I agree with you but it surprises me that you (nor anybody else afaik) has mentioned the superior online strategy adopted by PS2 and GC.
They leave it to the individual game makers to provide the infrastructure and rules how to play. This is much better
If you get banned due to modding from Xbox Live you are hosed as far as internet gaming is concerned. Not so with the other consoles.
You can play US games on your Eur PS2 with minimal penalty risk as an example. Second you can decide to give your business to the game maker that mostly align themselves with your "View of the world" .
Help fight continental drift.
This is going to be the same situation as buying copy protected CDs. Microsoft should release a PCI version of the XBox, just drop Dead to Rights into my DVD-ROM drive, done.
Until--as the artical pointed out--the xBox is sold 2nd-hand to some completely inocent person.
Certinaly won't do the xBox reputation any good if people are finding they can't get on-line, and that there's nothing they can do about it.
Sure--as the artical says--you may be forced to by a new box, more cash for the vendors. But would you still want an xBox after all than? Maybe a Playstation would seem like a better option the 2nd time 'round. Atleast you know you want get banned from anything.
I'd prefer to see someone do an ID sweep _with_ a modded XBOX in order to ban _all_ the legit XBOXen. Hell, you probably don't need an XBOX to do it. Just sniff the line and find the portion responsible for the ID code. Then set up a PC to generate those types of packets with different ID codes.
I'm sure they use some form of encryption on the network side, but _strong_ encryption would add a lot of delay.
Once they see that 90% of their network is banned, they'll freak. They will try to ban the IP generating the packets, then the entire subnet. Pretty soon, IRC will distribute the packet generator to thousands of geeks looking, not to kill, but to prove that banning modded XBOXen is stupid.
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
if you're doing that then you're not going to be using Xbox live very much.
It doesn't matter whether or not I use a mod chip on an Xbox because I don't subscribe to Xbox Live. I don't subscribe to Xbox Live because Microsoft doesn't want me. Microsoft doesn't want me because I'm on dial-up.
Will I retire or break 10K?
They can put all the labels they like on it, but the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act requires they prove that any problem is a result of damage caused by you. Just a sticker being broken doesn't count.
is the fact that yes this is a testing ground for Microsoft's "Palladium" and Hardware DRM solutions. . .Jesus this scares the crap out of me. . .Why not just put a GPS tracker under my skin and a permanently imprint a barcode on my forehead. . . So much for online ambiguity. . .so much for the "free and anonymous" internet. Yeah free and anonymous to everyone but Microsoft and their "approved" hardware vendors. . . ." who will know more about you than the CIA and the FBI could EVER dig up.
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Where in the F#$K is the DOJ at when you need them protecting us from crap like this ? Screw the monopoly crap. Microsoft is on the verge of violating my basic civil rights with this technology.
Our digital civil liberties will be dead by 2005 at this rate. . . .
Maybe we should rename Microsoft to "Big Brother" . . . .
it's being worked on already, and basically as you've said - there's an eeprom that holds the serial number, and it can be reprogrammed with a different serial number. the suggestion of "flooding" m$ with hacked serials has been brought up, but i suppose the success of that will depend on how acurate m$'s database of known xbox serial #s is.
My favorite was a Microsoft mouse that had a sticker from their software police department. Something about how it should have come with a new system, or certificate of authenticity, or something.
I really wanted to call their hotline and say something like, "I got this Microsoft product from a friend, and I read this sticker, so I thought I should call and make sure I'm not pirating anything." and see how long it would take them to figure out that I had a mouse and they had no business putting that sticker on it.
Or do they actually not sell their mice, only license them?
You own the XBox, but they own the network you're connecting to with it, and they control the services.
Frankly, I think it's lame to ban modders, too. But here's the beauty of it -- if they piss off enough of their own customers, they'll lose marketshare. Maybe in their own minds they'll be losing undesirable customers and not care... until they end up all walking away and either moving on to a different platform or else using their modded XBoxen to build an underground, alternative gaming network. Now that'd be a hack!
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
I can already see the market for switch boxes that on setting A turn on the mod chip but disconect the ethernet cable, and on setting B turn off the mod chip and reconnect the cable, so you can't accidently forget to kill the chip before logging in.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
that said, i hate game hackers even more. there is nothing that spoils an online game like hacks. i'm a starcraft diehard. everytime someone uses a hack, the game slows to a crawl, someone drops, and the game is lame.
anyway, who really thought the same people that make IIS and Outlook Virus spreader could make an online service that doesn't have bugs for regular users on the first shot???
i'm gettin a PS2 anyway.
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
That's ok. But you apparently didn't read the article. They don't ban you for using a cheat, they ban you for being ABLE to use a cheat. See the difference? Modding doesn't neccessarily mean that you are actually cheating but you are banned because of it and not because you were caught cheating.
If this would be transfered to PCs then this would mean everybody with an internet connection must be banned because he is able to download a cheat and use it. Or your harddisk is scanned and when a cheat is detected you are banned. Even though you might never have used it. You could have the cheat lying around on your harddisk because you are curious how it works and how to guard against it, but you are banned for that nevertheless.
Are you sentenced for murder because you have a knife at home? No? Why not? After all you could use a knife to kill somebody and don't tell me you have no knife at home, so this means you are guilty.
For the record, Sony has been very anti-mod as well. I'm sure once their online PS2 service is launched, they'll have a similar method for checking for mods.
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So I guess there are a lot of modded XBoxes.
Actually, by now, there are so many prerequesites to use XBox-life, I would be surprised of more than a few percent of XBox-owners will buy it. The majority doesn't have broadband and the few broadband owners are - you guessed it - even more likely to have modded their XBox.
This is certainly a stupid move from Microsoft and another nail into XBoxes coffin.
using their modded XBoxen to build an underground, alternative gaming network. Now that'd be a hack!
what would be even better is if you required a modchip to play. now that would really piss them off
This might be a good thing. Has anyone played on Battle.Net recently? The strength and vocalness of people's anger and rudeness absolutely astounds me.
The people are what have prevented me from allowing my son to play on it.
Also, it's not as if the modder is banned forever, only the modded Xbox. I think it's a lame policy, but regardless of its lameness, it does seem well within Microsoft's rights to do it. (Although they better be offering refunds if people can't use the service.)
The frustrating thing, to me, is that most mod chippers talk up a "run Linux, do hobbiest development, play other region DVDs" game, and then simply play lots of pirated games. To many people that gives Microsoft the moral high ground in its battle against harwdare hackers. If less people used mod chips for piracy, Microsoft (and others) might be less inclined to go after them.
A good example is Nintendo, which has traditionally turned a totally blind eye to region-defeating measures, while rigorously enforcing anti-piracy policies.
Dude, I think I can see my house from here.
You can do whatever you want to it. Put a mod chip in. Just don't expect to play your pirated hacked games on Xbox Live.
You don't like the rules, don't buy the product.
People that mod an X-box usually do so for one of two reasons:
1) To put Linux down on it.
2) To play pirated games.
In the case of #2, if you're pirating x-box games, you're cheating Microsoft out of money. Whether or not you think Microsoft should make a profit out of their products is irrevelant.. the fact remains that you are still playing pirated games, so why should you demand to play online with them, too?
I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft, but I'm with them on this one. If you crack open your microwave and mod it so that you can run Linux on it (Imagine that! MicroLinux ;)), would you call up and bitch to the manufacturer that you can't heat up your dinners anymore? I think not.
- vmfedor
I like my women how I like my sugar.. granulated.
Not nessisarily, refer to my other reply somewhere in this thread regarding sectional checksums. Basically a scheme for the XBL server to query for specific sector-sector checksums at random. Coudl even happen durring disk-idle times while the game is playing to prevent some kind of "swap-for-a-cheat-disk" method.
This would be very unreliable if a cheat only changed a few bytes, which is very common with cheats. There would be other ways around it too. Hijacking the checkum routine and calculating the checksum based on the real data for instance. It also wouldn't stop things like locked memory value cheats which are popular, and don't require any changes to the media, and could be done with just a firmware change.
What's wrong with modding my box if the games I play online are checked for validity and fairness anyways?
If the box is modified there's no sure way to guarantee fairness. Even with checksums, what if you modded the box to calculate the checksums from the real disk in a second drive. It's just IDE. I think the heavy handed aproach is the only real way to stop cheaters, and as a nice side effect it punishes people for doing something they have other problems with. Seriously, if somebody doesn't like it they can just go get a PS2 instead.
One other notable thing I read about this, is that XBox Live doesn't play nice (read: not at all) on AOL's broadband service, and that MS is currently pursuing obtaining rights to have the service work on their network. Not that I'm some kind of AOL sympathizer or anything, I think they're a sad, sad service but you'd think MS would have locked that kind of thing down earlier. Like it or not, there's a pretty hefty userbase on AOL (although admittedly I don't know any numbers on how many people are on their broadband service). Comments?
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In the xbox world, Microsoft has a good claim that the mod chips hurt their business. People wanted to get pirated software, and MS said 'that hurts our profits'. If you want the ability to run Linux they have made a way to do that: GET A DEVELOPMENT KIT. If you want to make your own games, get a dev kit. If you want to play pirated games, you are a theif, (but could do it with a dev kit).
In the bnetd world, Blizzard has a poor claim that bnetd hurts their business. People wanted Blizzard to improve their online sites. People offered to pay; ISPs offered to host; Consumers complained. They could have EASILY said "We'll offer new servers", or "We'll license ISP's to host", or "We'll let corporations like McDonalds host and add BigMac items that restore lots of unit health". When the bnetd folks asked them for help, they just said "no." When bnetd didn't do the things Blizzard did, they could have made an agreement with bnetd to include their 'security code'. Did they? No. They filed a law suit instead of implementing their 'security code'.
To finish the comparison: Where Blizzard just filed law suits, MS said "keep stuff you have changed off our servers." Where Blizzard said "No other networks, period, we don't care if you are legit or pirates", MS has said "Developer networks are fine, just show that you are developers and not pirates."
See the difference? I personally dispise xbox mod chips because they hurt my paychecks. But MS were to somehow require that you used their servers and couldn't use dev servers? Or if their servers get clogged and they won't let new game developers enable custom servers? Then you will have a valid comparison.
frob.
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Good points. I think it does come down to the ethics -- as expressed in the specific law of the nation/state itself. The modding of the XBox allows a 'function expansion' to the machine. How this expansion is used SHOULD be the issue, rather than the expressing the technically innaccurate view that modded xbox == cheating pirate.
... this practice started when I spotted my 3 year old using my Diablo CD as a rollerskate). This is quite legal in my part of the globe ... is this (even mostly) universal?
I make copies of 90% of any VCR tapes and PC games, so I can use (and thus trash) these copies and keep the 'gold' media away from exposure (spot the slashdotter who has small kids
It is MS's network, and they can do what they like. But then, in Australia, this action could come under the attention of the ACCC, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. Does the US have a simular group?
Robert Anton Wilson