Wal-Mart Lindows PCs Selling Well

andyring writes "CNN.com is reporting that sales of the $199 PCs have exceeded expectations. Although CNN terms them "full fledged, if low power," it seems customers don'd mind all that much if their computer does not run Windows and doesn't carry an Intel processor. Slashdot covered two reviews of those machines July 4."

Comments

I may seem like a troll for saying this

[danny256]

but I bought one of those boxes because it was cheap, formatted and stuck a pirated copy of windows XP on it. I wonder how many other people have done the same thing.

Re:I may seem like a troll for saying this

[mbrod]

All of them...

but that is not what is important. At least not to me, it is surely of importance to M$ but not because of the pirated version of XP but because people may start to realize it is possible to buy PC's without Windows on it.

It is of HUGE significance that PC's are going to be sold at Wal-Mart without Windows period. MS thought they had won this war. Doesn't matter if the setup sux or not. Because if a place as common as Wal-Mart is selling non MS PC's it is a huge deal to them. It is the smart thing to do for Wal-Mart and that is why Wal-Mart rox. They are not afraid to take some chances.

The big PC dealers all got too lazy to sell PC's without doze. This may get them to rethink that strategy.

Re:I may seem like a troll for saying this

[Jucius Maximus]

I also may sound like a troll for saying this:

These things sell well for the same reason that Deer Hunter is a bestselling game and Microsoft became an empire selling Windows:

For the vast majority of people, price is way more important than quality. If it's cheap and reasonably useable, people will buy it in large numbers.

Re:I may seem like a troll for saying this

[frozenray]

More likely, they used Win ME rather than XP if they did such a thing - Joe Sixpack won't be able to bypass the XP activation procedure. I'm actually rather glad Microsoft introduced it - as long as Windows cost essentially the same as Linux (the price of a blank CD-R), people didn't care, now they may be starting to vote with their wallets.

Re:I may seem like a troll for saying this

[Apathy costs bills]

Isn't that what Microsoft was saying would happen if Windows wasn't required to be preloaded on every computer in America? Do you feel bad proving them right?

Re:I may seem like a troll for saying this

[RatBastard]

Walmart sells 25% of the computer/console games sold in the US. They WILL NOT carry a game with an M rating. Period. Game publishers are faced with three choices if they choose to make a game more racy than Metroiid Prime:
1 - Make a WalMart version of the game.
2 - Alter the game to get a T reating.
3 - Tell Walmart to shove it.

id software has already tiold Walmart to shove it. They know that people will buy their games no matter what.

Most other game publishers are not in the financial position that id software is. They end up taking options 1 or 2. That XXX bike game removed all of the nudity in order to get a T rating and thus avoid the WalMart blacklist. 3DRealms sold a Walmart version of Duke Nukem 3D in order to avoid the WalMart blackout.

While I believe that retailors have the right to not carry products they do not want, I also see that WalMart has enough market pull to affect the purchasing choices that even non-WalMart shoppers have.

Re:I may seem like a troll for saying this

[Raiford]

Right. Remember that folks that shop at Wal-Mart don't mind having an Emerson brand stereo system. Why should a computer system be any different. That was a real stroke of genius on their part !

Re:I may seem like a troll for saying this

[blochsound]

My aunt works at Wal-mart, and until I spoke with her I didn't realize how huge wal-mart is. If they get a product stocked at their stores that can literally make a company. Huge companies like Proctor and Gamble have to divert production when Wal-mart wants to run a special on their products. If Wal-mart is buying that can stop production for ANYTHING ELSE If we could only get these machines in the stores now.

Re:I may seem like a troll for saying this

[fferreres]

At $200 you reach 80% of the population every two months or so. With $1000 you reach 10% every 6 months or so.

I mean, no matter how good your product may be, if it's not fighting in the $200 and under price tag, most people will not be able to afford it. Even if 10000^10000 times faster, it's still innacesible.

Of course, up until now these people could only get a used PC, or they had to make a mayor effort or do with less computers that they wanted or have a friend that custom built them one as cheap as possible.

The $200 lines opens up a huge market. "Hey, I have $200, why not buy this new PC?".

There are great!

[IrvineHosting]

I just bought one of these for my dad. I installed redhat 8.0 and he loves it! He doesn't know the difference between it and windows. It is fun to watch is use mozilla for web browsing and mail. If microsoft disappeared off the planet I really think desktop computing would go on fine at this point.

Re:There are great!

[N3WBI3]

I tried that with mine but he needs AOL (boy does he need AOL, he insist that is the internet)

The Bottom Line

[MBCook]

What matters in the bottom line. For most people, who just want to e-mail their friends and surf the web, the machines are more than powerful enough. And the fact that they cost so little goes a LONG way. Most people are willing to sacrifice some things for massive savings, and that's what we're seeing here, IMHO.

But my other question is this: I wonder how many of the computers have copies of windows installed on them by the end user? Be it transfered (old PC doesn't work, so put Win95 on this new one) or coppied.

Intel that big a selling point?

[Lawbeefaroni]

it seems customers don'd mind all that much if their computer does not run Windows and doesn't carry an Intel processor

Is having an Intel CPU still that big a deal to the average consumer? I know they still blow a ton of cash on advertising how a P4 will "make the internet faster" and the like, but does your average consumer care? They obviously care about Windows, not because it's Windows but because Deer Hunter 8 or 3D Home Recipe Book VI won't run on anything else. But the CPU?

Re:Intel that big a selling point?

[enjo13]

Yes.. The Intel logo does make a pretty big difference. Intel really does enjoy tremendous brand recognition and people tend to associate Intel with top of the line computer power.

However, while Intel is a big brand, Walmart is many orders of magnitude bigger. People are willing to overlook the lack of recognizable and trusted brand on the box because they have such high brand loyalty to Walmart.

Walmart has that effect. If anyone can inspire change in the industry.. its a retailer like Walmart. They have legions of loyal customers who trust them to stock merchandise that they can rely on... That's why I like this so much. Its only going to be much later that all of a sudden people realize that hundred of thousands (if not millions) of people are running these Linux PC's.. and THAT will be the day that people will finally realize that there is a world outside of Microsoft. THAT will be the day that Microsoft will begin to lose its desktop monopoly.

All snide comments aside...

[Captain Sarcastic]

... how can this be anything but good for Linux?

Consider - the biggest excuse that people have used about Linux has been "nobody uses it, so nobody writes software for it."

Well, people are using it, now. This is the opportunity for Linux to show that it is, indeed, useful for everyday users... or not.

Face it - this is going to be Linux's baptism by fire. Let's try hoping that it survives, instead of making half-witticisms about Wal-Mart shoppers.

Re:All snide comments aside...

[caluml]

This is the opportunity for Linux to show that it is, indeed, useful for everyday users... or not. Face it - this is going to be Linux's baptism by fire.

And that's what scares me. People are going to judge Linux by Lindows. I've never used it. I hope it's good and polished. But I'd feel rather more happy with the fate of Linux resting on say, RedHat.

How long has Lindows been around for again?...

Attracting novices? Really?

[dagg]

... attracting novices looking for a way onto the Internet as well as high-end users wanting a second box.

These things don't come with monitors, modems, etc. I'd be really surprised if novices are buying these things. I guess they might be if they are getting the "extra-price-items"... like a monitor.

These seem like geek toys. Or maybe as a CPU upgrade for those with old PC's.

--
What your sex would be at Walmart

Reality check...

[Anonymous Coward]

Take a reality pill. How many of the people buying Lindows PCs are actually leaving Linux in place? And how many are taking their bootleg copy of Windows 2k (or whatever) and installing that?

$200 Walmart PCs with Mandrake?

[joestar]

Would be great... Because leaving Lindows to Linux newcomers is really the worst thing that can happen to them! 1) proprietary stuff everywhere 2) using the system as root = welcome to viruses in the future and so on.

Users need a real and *easy to use* Linux system! A pre-installed Mandrake Linux (8.2 or 9.0) is in my opinion the best system they can be offered. It's real Free Software, it's secure, it's fast, it's reliable, and there are many many software available for it.

Lindows' success is the result of it's CEO's address large book really a bad for Linux because it's just an attempt to provide a *very badly designed* system that looks as closely as possible to Windows.

This isn't the future of masses computing in any way in my opinion.

Re:$200 Walmart PCs with Mandrake?

[dbarclay10]

Lindows' success is the result of it's CEO's address large book really a bad for Linux because it's just an attempt to provide a *very badly designed* system that looks as closely as possible to Windows.

Just to be sure that people don't think the above post is a troll, I'd like to say that this is my observation as well. Having talked to Michael (Lindows' CEO), I know that the only thing he brings to the Linux desktop is a large rolodex, and a used-car-salesman attitude.

I also spoke to Cliff Beshers, their technical lead, and I was even less impressed. At least Michael knows what he brings to the party - we may not thing it's the right thing, but at least it's honest about it - but Cliff shouldn't have the word "technical" in his title anywhere.

Bingo!

[The Turd Report]

For most people, who just want to e-mail their friends and surf the web, the machines are more than powerful enough.

My grand-dad went to buy a computer at a big chain store. He just wanted to look around on the web and email some friends/family. The sales droid tried to sell him a P4 2Ghz with all the bells and whistles. I ended up putting to gether a Duron 1.2G for $250 that does all he wants to do. Unless you are a big game freak or a geek (like most of us), people just don't need that much computing power.

but the implications are big...

[ryochiji]

I think this is further proof that PCs (hardware and software) are becoming commodity goods. Customers don't care about bells and whistles, they just want to browse the web and do email. The really scary thing is, people are starting to realize that you don't need expensive hardware and software to do the basic things most people do.

I think this is an excellent opportunity for small PC manufacturers, and maybe even OpenSource projects, to get their feet in customers' doors. And big vendors (cough Microsoft cough) should be afraid. Very afraid.

Re:but the implications are big...

[fishbowl]

Seems people see Moore's law, etc., and expect continued development. I see a plateau, where human proportions have brought us to a point where a bit of stagnation will be ok.

For faster stuff and bigger storage, we are getting into the next level of application, mostly Entertainment.

But even the typical consumer pc has gotten to the point where, the human's attention span exceeds the wait for any operation they use the machine for, where the storage is enough for anything they're likely to create (again, let's don't worry about the next level -- video -- because that falls into Entertainment).

For all the stuff that we really *need* computers for (replace the typewriter, the check register, and the cookbook), the 1990 PC fell short of the needed capacity to meet the human proportions: It lacked the storage capacity to comfortably store everything a user would write, or a really huge cookbook; operations would take seconds or minutes to complete, etc.)

Today we've converged at a point where human proportions allow a plateau. Now, we begin a new cycle where the application is Entertainment. So we need A/V. Faster computers, bigger storage. But no matter how much faster and bigger they get, we already reached a point where the old-skool apps WORK in a sense that they did NOT work (but almost did) 10 years ago.

Always keep in mind that we're talking about PERSONAL computers here. Not Business or Technical computers. Entertainment/Multimedia falls into this category. All the stuff we wanted the PC for in 1990, we can actually do now. Without waiting 5 minutes for the wordprocesor to load. Without worrying about storage space for reasonable stuff.

In short, we have the PC today that IBM said the 286 was. It's just now starting to be practical!

We NEEDED gigabyte drives, Tens of Megs of RAM, back then. But that does not necessarily mean we need more now. We're just now to the point where the application requirements of 1990 are met, and we're indifferent, because we've thought of a whole new set of requirements... Entertainment.

I use Lindows.....

[dirkdidit]

and I have a large penis. See there's a direct correlation there. Lindows is cheap and easy just like me!

Mini-ITX

[g4dget]

Judging by the specs, the Walmart machines are actually Mini ITX machines. Walmart's price is very good: ordinarily, you pay close to $200 for just the motherboard, power supply, and enclosure; Walmart throws in the memory, keyboard, CD-ROM, mouse, disk, and speakers. Their margins must be very thin.

And, for better or for worse, despite the carping of usability engineers and the whining of Microsoft zealots, if they run Gnome/KDE, Mozilla, and OpenOffice on it, end users will have a software experience not too different from Windows with Microsoft Office.

The Via CPU is Really Slow

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought one in September to eval.

The 800 Mhz Via CPU is roughly equivalent to a 400 Mhz Celeron.

I popped in a 1.2 Ghz Celeron for $62 and it runs Much Better.

The 10 GB drive is also Very slow.

I could have built a much better machine for a little more money. Still, it isn't a bad deal.

I booted Lindows and took a quick look before blowing it away. It was really cheesy, with major pieces requiring additional purchase.

Re:The Via CPU is Really Slow

[shepd]

>The 800 Mhz Via CPU is roughly equivalent to a 400 Mhz Celeron.

After using one of these, I think you're underrating the CPU by a lot.

You forgot that when you're talking Cyrix, you're talking a big difference between application performance, and number crunching performance.

Number crunching on a C3 is pathetic. Application performance on a C3 800 is about equivalent to a PIII 550, IMHO. The C3 666 plays DVDs handsomely, and there's no way they'd play well on a Celeron 300...

And while you're saving on the computer, you also save on electricity. I'm very disappointed that so few laptop manufacturers have considered this chip. IIRC, it uses about 1/4 the power the power of an Athlon, and produces so little heat it can be relatively easily passively cooled.

In other words, a silent, cheap, laptop that doesn't burn your legs or your wallent, and lasts an entire trip from anywhere on the world to anywhere, all at the expense of some CPU power. Sounds cool to me.

meet the Lindows

[ChristTrekker]

With apologies to Hanna-Barbera...

Lindows
Meet the Lindows
You're the modern Wal-Mart family
Prices
Are bottom rock
You're making Linux history
Let's force
Microsoft to retreat
This cheap
PC is so 31337!
When you're
Using Lindows
You can play all your Windows games
It still looks the same
You drive Bill Gates insane!

But do they even know?

[SuperKendall]

I'll bet 70% of the people buying the WalMart machines think they have Pentiums in them!! After all, they've been conditioned to accept that all computers have Pentium processors... it's only if you explicitly say "this does NOT have a Pentium" that you get those funny looks and people start to doubt. Most people think Macs have Pentiums - go ahhead and ask!

Re: Who on /. uses this hunk of junk? Me!

[x00101010x]

I bought one when my AMD K6-2 450 finally died and it's case was donated to my cats (they love old cases). Anyways, I just wanted a cheap system to turn into a simple home server. It works perfect. I've got it running RH8.0, Samba, a firewall/gateway setup using IPTables, DHCP server and I'll soon be adding some MP3 streaming so I can listen to MP3's all over the house. It has yet to dissapoint me, despite the lag when I'm on it (since I'm only actually on it 4 hours a week or so for tweaking). All in all, it's a great warm body machine (for when anything w/ a pulse will do).

I told you Lindows was for real

[dh003i]

I don't remember which post I put it in, but I did say somewhere this: Lindows is for real. They do good business, smart business: (1) Naming their product to sound like Windows attracts Windows users; (2) Making it look like OSX in ways attracts Mac users and the general public; (3) Website designed like Apple's website -- makes it easy to use, and familiar; (4) Debian-based -- couldn't base it on a better, more stable, distro; (5) Making deals with big-time players like Walmart. In short, these guys make good business decisions.

In response to a few criticisms of Lindows proprietary software:

1. The only proprietary thing that I can find is Lindows slick upgrading utility (Click-'n-Run), which can easily be replaced by apt-get or a apt-get GUI. Does anyone here think that people are going to pay the high price for Click-'n-run after it expires? Not likely. If you're worried about the new user being swayed by proprietary software, you don't have to worry about Click-'n-Run -- few will pay for that service. So, thus, its up to you to educate them about FS/OSS.
   
   
2. Yes, it runs as root. So does Windows. The average computer user doesn't want to bother to distinguish between root and user. If they do, they want it to be simple and graphical, like OSX's system is. I'd say that until a user is intelligent enough to understand why (s)he shouldn't be running in root, they shouldn't. You learn by experience. This is also a call for the FS/OSS world to develop some good anti-virus software: even if you run in user, you're still not invulnerable to viri.
   
   
3. No, they haven't offered the source or ISO online for free download. Why? They actually have a real business plan, which doesn't include giving away their product for free (as in beer). In other words, they have a plan to make money, and have obviously learned from dot.bomb. Giving away your product and hoping people will buy it anyways is not a good business model (RedHat has been successful because they sell support services). It is fine and dandy for non-profit projects like Debian to give things away for free (i.e., their updates), but they aren't trying to make money. Even Debian doesn't put their official ISO online because it would require huge amounts of space/bandwidth, and they want to encourage people to buy the $5 Debian CD's.

Quite frankly, I think Lindows is the best chance to topple the MS empire, because of the software itself and the business plan/model behind it. Once people are using Lindows, its a few steps from there to more traditional GNU/Linux distros.

Lindows is, quite frankly, very easy to use -- even for newbies. You can't underestimate how important that is for the typical user. Remember, your parents even have a hard time using Windows or MacOS!

And with Christmas coming

[phorm]

It will be definately interesting to see how well these sell, and more importantly, what the sell-to-return ratio is after Christmas. I expect a lot of people are saying "hey, cheap computer!" and putting it under the tree.

Heck, for some guy buying a computer for his almost-never-used-a-PC-before granny/mother/aunt/etc this is a great present. Cheap, goes online, runs a word processor. They're not super-fast, but they're not retarded-slow either.

I doubt you'll see many gamers buying these, but for those who are just trying to get some letters printed and emails sent, it's a good deal.

In response to naysayers...

[Alethes]

I see a lot of people suggesting that it's likely that most of these cheap computers end up getting wiped clean and having Windows installed. However, I'd like to point out that most computer manufacturers and resellers are locking themselves into really bad situations with Microsoft only because they believe they can't sell these computers without an OS or with an OS other than Windows. Wal-Mart is proving otherwise. So, even if these computers get wiped clean, perhaps other major computer resellers will take note of the fact that they can sell their quality computers without having to lock themselves into the Microsoft trap. If you think about it, this could dramatically alter the way computers are sold in the very near future.

Speaking of AOL

[xjerky]

....they should really look at this and attempt to partner up with Wal-Mart and produce a Linux version of AOL. They're desperate for revenue right now, and appealing to the $200 PC market would be a good niche to get in on. They could have sold a $250 version which includes a "free" year of AOL or something. Still not a bad deal to the price-conscious shopper.

Confirmation from a "non-geek" (Re:Bingo!)

[calm_rising]

OK, I'm a physician, not a techie (I read slashdot because it's so hard to find anything else intelligent to read). So perhaps I can provide the "Joe Schmoe" perspective.

I wanted to confirm what people are saying about the average Joe Schmoe not needing computer power. I'm still running an AMD K6 200 MHz processor from 1997. I have a DSL connection and Win 98SE (shudder). I surf the web with IE6, run Yahoo! Messenger, and check email with Eudora, typically all at once, often while also playing bridge on M$N Zone (sorry, M$-haters, it's the best free bridge I've found!).

I couldn't sell this box for anything, let alone $200, yet it does everything I want to do. Sure, it slows down a bit when I use everything at once, but not enough to go out and spend money. If you're a Joe Schmoe like me.

So you're right. The common man doesn't need a monster CPU, etc. That being said, don't forget that usability is key. Most people will be completely unable to surf the web and send email if they have to do too much more than plug it in, turn it on, and follow some very user-friendly instructions. If the Lindows box can't do this, it's not going to do very well.

So, can it? I hear people saying that it doesn't even come with a monitor?

Re:Confirmation from a "non-geek" (Re:Bingo!)

[Arandir]

I read slashdot because it's so hard to find anything else intelligent to read

Keep searching...

reminds me of this quote:

[RelliK]

Pricetag outside matters more than Intel inside.

Re:Users

[Black Copter Control]

I'd disagree. Slashdot readers are definitely part of the target audience -- someone who is secure enough in their computer knowledge that they don't think they need MS's hand-holding (or shackeling, depending on your point of view).

Another target user would be the low-budget buyer who isn't willing to put out the extra $100 for an MS license and sees that the boxes do what (s)he wants.

The third would probably be someone with enough money that 'blowing' $200 to find out about Linux seems entirely worth it.

I've generally been of the opinion that one of the biggest barriers to general Linux acceptance is the difficulty in finding a box with anything other than MS pre-loaded. Although I find Linux installs easier than Windows installs, it's still a pain in the butt. Most users aren't willing to buy a bare bones system w/ a separate OS and then waste their time on an install while risking being blocked by some odd incompatibility (e.g. not being able to differentiate hardware failure from installer error).

These Wall Mart boxes are pretty much the first mass-market over-the-counter Linux boxes for the masses. I may have misgivings about Lindows' software practices, but it's definitely nice to see Linux bozes in the aisles this Christmas.

Points to consider

[RatBastard]

A few points you need to consider:

• WalMart does not sell PCs for a liiving. It's jusy one of many products.
• If this product tanks WalMart will not be hurt at all.
• WalMart does not need Uncle Bill's blessing to make money (see first point).
• These are bare-bones, bottom of the pile PCs that are selling because they are cheap.

This is not a revolution in PC sales. This is a huge desicount chain selling a second-rate computer at the lowest price they possibly can as a side project that isn't even worth putting in their stores.

Two Reviews on July 4

[Captain Large Face]

"Slashdot covered two reviews of those machines July 4."

Makes a change from "Slashdot posted the same review of these machines twice on July 4."

How about schools and kindergardens?

[axxackall]

I wonder noone mentioned the poor public education. $200 per box? It's a perfect price for schools! I am going to talk to the principal - my kid complains they don't have enough computer classes b/c there is not enough of computers. ... Jeez, is it 21st century or it's a middle age?

Joe Sixpack didn't buy it..

[EvilStein]

5,000,000 Slashdot geeks went out and bought them and immediately installed $LINUX_DISTRO on them when they got home.

Some even bought 2 or 3 and gave 'em to the kids.
Others turned extra boxes into home mp3 servers.

The VIA processor is really bad.

[cartman]

The VIA CPU is a reincarnation of the old IDT/centaur winchip. Via purchased both centaur and cyrix after they both flopped at making x86 CPUs.

The Via c3 has only one integer unit and one fp unit, coupled with a decent-sized cache. Architecturally, the via c3 is extremely primitive, worse than the original pentium. The c3 benchmark scores are consistently about 1/3rd to 1/4th those of a celeron or a duron at the same clock speed.

That tragic this is: putting an AMD duron in this machine would have tripled the performance, and would have costed only about $10 more. The $199 lindows box was likely intended to be a no-profit "crippleware" machine, to lure people to the $299 and $399 models.

Sub $500 PC

[jbolden]

One thing that doesn't seem to be mentioned here is the importance of a sub $500 PC on who buys computers. Back around the time of the Commodore Vic 20 and 64 you had a huge number of parents buying dedicated computers for young children; and poor people buying computers for themselves. Since the death of the Amiga 500 we really haven't had new computers that are cheap enough for people to casually buy them. The effects of adding say 10 or 20 million home computers to the market in terms of the spread of knowledge, broadband, games... could be quite profound.

AAUGHH!!

[Dirtside]

Okay, I nearly had a heart attack when I read this:

Freedom -- from Microsoft --

A split second passed where I thought that, somehow, Microsoft had either trademarked "Freedom", released a program named "Freedom" ("Microsoft Freedom"... perhaps an oxymoron like "Microsoft Works"?), or acquired the intellectual property rights to the entire concept of freedom. Man, I need to read less /.

Maybe we're giving the consumer too much credit?

[raehl]

If the chief advantage for windows in the consumer space is supposedly that consumers are not smart enough to realize that they can get a computer without windows...

Maybe they're also not smart enough to realize that they're getting a computer without Windows? If we don't trust the average purchaser to know that just because a P4 has a higher clock rate than an Athlon that it isn't necessarily faster, why would we expect them to realize whether the computer they're buying to send email has windows or lindows? To them it's a thing that sends email.

The average user probably views the OS and the computer with the same level of separation most of us assign to the transport and network layers.

Basically indistinguishable parts of the thing you use to get a web page.

The TigerDirect Lindows machine sold for $230.00

[Newer Guy]

The TigerDirect Lindows machine sold for $230.00 and had a 900 meg Duron CPU, 128 megs of RAM, a 20 gig HD, Modem, decent video, NIC, etc. They sold over 2000 of them in less then two weeks and have been out of stock for several more (apparently this machine was one of the biggest sellers in their history).

Call the lawyers!

[LX.onesizebigger]

CNN.com is reporting that sales of the $199 PCs...

DMCA! DMCA! DMCA!

Yes, intelligent! (Re:Re:Confirmation from...)

[calm_rising]

I said: I read slashdot because it's so hard to find anything else intelligent to read.

People replied: And Slashdot intelligent? Haw.... It's worse out there on the Internet than we thought.... Keep searching...

Wow, that was a robust response. No kidding, guys&gals. Without the time or patience to surf, I used to have to tolerate the big-media news feeds, who seem to think that Winona Ryder Busted for Shoplifting is big news.

Admittedly, to refine the /. content, I read at a +3 threshold with -2 for Funny and +1 for Insightful. I only lower the threshold if a thread interests me enough to consider replying (so that I won't be redundant). Try those settings for yourself; suddenly, /. seems pretty damn smart.

P.S. Sorry if this is offtopic; mod me down if you must. I know that those replies were just friendly jesting, but the topic touched a nerve. I hate stupidity.

Re:Maybe we're giving the consumer too much credit

[shaitand]

That's why this is perfect, it's not a no OS at all solution, there is an OS on the machine. True grandma probably does not make a distinction between MS and linux, but her grandkids will and suddenly become aware that there are other things than microsoft in the world and that's a start... it doesn't really matter if they like linux. Linux is just another OS, they don't have to like linux, or BSD, just knowing there are other things out there is a start. Some will take the next step and play with them. Some will like them. Other's will like them better but not enough, contribute to something that already exists, or perhaps come up with something better.

Re:What is with the *hatred* of Wal-Mart

[macshit]

I find Walmart a horrid, soul-sucking place.

I don't know why others hate them, but I hate them for several reasons -- (1) because they're simply big, cold, and impersonal, and just not pleasant to be in, but also (2) because they're a particularly extreme example of the increasing homogenization of culture in the U.S., and the obsession with low-price at the expense of any other measure of value (such as pleasant stores).

Sure, when a walmart bulldozes into town, they offer very good prices, a pretty reasonable selection of merchandise, and a certain sort of convenience. Consumers like this.

They like it so much, that they shop at walmart instead of old-Joe's local crap-n-stuff store (established 1837) to get that extra 5% off, and because Joe hasn't updated some of his inventory since 1853. Unless Joe is pretty clever, he probably then goes out of business.

`Good riddance' a lot of people think, Joe's place was always pretty lame anyway.

After a few years, they notice that the community seems somehow colder and more impersonal than it used to. Is it just nostalgia? Probably some of it is -- but I'll bet part of it is Joe.

Granted this has been going on for a long time, and Walmart's just more noticable because they're very good at it. Probably not much could be done to save old Joe, but I really hope there's a new generation of Joes out there that hate walmart like I do, and who have enough business accumen to somehow replace some of what has been lost. Maybe they can use some of the tools Walmart uses (e.g., computer technology), but still manage to make something local instead of a cookie-cutter outlet of a vast corporation.

Personally I try to spend my money in ways that reflect what I said above -- I'll shop a store that I like, even if it costs more, because I know my money is paying for more than just the physical product.