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Wal-Mart Lindows PCs Selling Well
andyring writes "CNN.com is reporting that sales of the $199 PCs have exceeded expectations. Although CNN terms them "full fledged, if low power," it seems customers don'd mind all that much if their computer does not run Windows and doesn't carry an Intel processor. Slashdot covered two reviews of those machines July 4."
Why the things here are so much expensive than in the US?
but I bought one of those boxes because it was cheap, formatted and stuck a pirated copy of windows XP on it. I wonder how many other people have done the same thing.
I just bought one of these for my dad. I installed redhat 8.0 and he loves it! He doesn't know the difference between it and windows. It is fun to watch is use mozilla for web browsing and mail. If microsoft disappeared off the planet I really think desktop computing would go on fine at this point.
But my other question is this: I wonder how many of the computers have copies of windows installed on them by the end user? Be it transfered (old PC doesn't work, so put Win95 on this new one) or coppied.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
it seems customers don'd mind all that much if their computer does not run Windows
well, they don't mind if it doesn't come with windows but i would guess that better than 9 out of 10 of them end up w/ windows on them. a few copies might even be legal (maybe)
it seems customers don'd mind all that much if their computer does not run Windows and doesn't carry an Intel processor
Is having an Intel CPU still that big a deal to the average consumer? I know they still blow a ton of cash on advertising how a P4 will "make the internet faster" and the like, but does your average consumer care? They obviously care about Windows, not because it's Windows but because Deer Hunter 8 or 3D Home Recipe Book VI won't run on anything else. But the CPU?
"When it rains, it pours." --Morton's Salt
... how can this be anything but good for Linux?
Consider - the biggest excuse that people have used about Linux has been "nobody uses it, so nobody writes software for it."
Well, people are using it, now. This is the opportunity for Linux to show that it is, indeed, useful for everyday users... or not.
Face it - this is going to be Linux's baptism by fire. Let's try hoping that it survives, instead of making half-witticisms about Wal-Mart shoppers.
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
I'd be very interested to see how long Linux stays on those machines before some friend/neighbour/relative drops by and fdisks the system to install XP of which they just happen to have a copy?
These things don't come with monitors, modems, etc. I'd be really surprised if novices are buying these things. I guess they might be if they are getting the "extra-price-items"... like a monitor.
These seem like geek toys. Or maybe as a CPU upgrade for those with old PC's.
Sex - Find It
Take a reality pill. How many of the people buying Lindows PCs are actually leaving Linux in place? And how many are taking their bootleg copy of Windows 2k (or whatever) and installing that?
They have built an empire selling sweat shop wares at prices that no one else can compete with. This has sounded the death knell for the mom and pop operations of the world.
Am I supposed to be unhappy at paying lower prices from an efficient company? Am I supposed to be angry because Wal-Mart doesn't charge me more?
Do you get angry when Apple is "forced" to lower prices because of the prices of commodity PC hardware?
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Would be great... Because leaving Lindows to Linux newcomers is really the worst thing that can happen to them! 1) proprietary stuff everywhere 2) using the system as root = welcome to viruses in the future and so on.
Users need a real and *easy to use* Linux system! A pre-installed Mandrake Linux (8.2 or 9.0) is in my opinion the best system they can be offered. It's real Free Software, it's secure, it's fast, it's reliable, and there are many many software available for it.
Lindows' success is the result of it's CEO's address large book really a bad for Linux because it's just an attempt to provide a *very badly designed* system that looks as closely as possible to Windows.
This isn't the future of masses computing in any way in my opinion.
Remeber the hype of emachines? They were medicro PC's for a reasonable price. Reasonable until there was a technical challenge. Hopefully these won't see the same negative consumer backlash. The Linux community can not afford the humiliation. I fear the "not-us" technical pit.
If we don't fight for ourselves no one will.
It doesn't matter what slashdot readers think of them. That's not who they're marketed toward. I think a better question is what your grandma/neighbor/any other non computer saavy person thinks about them.
I planned on inserting something witty here but never got around to it.
They would have exceeded at least some expectations by selling maybe 100 of these. :)
My grand-dad went to buy a computer at a big chain store. He just wanted to look around on the web and email some friends/family. The sales droid tried to sell him a P4 2Ghz with all the bells and whistles. I ended up putting to gether a Duron 1.2G for $250 that does all he wants to do. Unless you are a big game freak or a geek (like most of us), people just don't need that much computing power.
Michael Loves Me!
I think this is further proof that PCs (hardware and software) are becoming commodity goods. Customers don't care about bells and whistles, they just want to browse the web and do email. The really scary thing is, people are starting to realize that you don't need expensive hardware and software to do the basic things most people do.
I think this is an excellent opportunity for small PC manufacturers, and maybe even OpenSource projects, to get their feet in customers' doors. And big vendors (cough Microsoft cough) should be afraid. Very afraid.
---
Open Source Shirts
and I have a large penis. See there's a direct correlation there. Lindows is cheap and easy just like me!
Folks like us are buying these with "maybe" a few clueless newbies. I kind of look at the newbies buying it as a good thing as that's who they are targetting this at. But the bulk of the folks buying these are most likely geeks that realize high GHz CPUs aren't everything and these would work great as a MP3 server, firewall, router, or whatever when they open it and tweak it by throwing in a bigger HD or a couple network cards. Why buy a old machine to do this when these are only 200 bucks.
Gorkman
And, for better or for worse, despite the carping of usability engineers and the whining of Microsoft zealots, if they run Gnome/KDE, Mozilla, and OpenOffice on it, end users will have a software experience not too different from Windows with Microsoft Office.
One small point...
That will work for people who know computers well enough to build them, but the average person doesn't really know too much on how to make one.
Everyone knows the old addage you get what you pay for. When I worked selling computers though, there were two types of customers. There was the type that wanted the best hardware they could get, price be damned, and there was the type that just wanted to type stuff up and surf the net, and those people really only wanted to spend what they had to.
By offering customers a(cheap) linux solution which allows them to type up papers and surf the internet, you are answering the computer needs of a signifigant marketshare. By putting Linux in thier hands, you're enabling them to see that there's more to the world than bargain basement e-machines running the latest M$ operating system, and for around 33% - 50% of the cost of one of those e-machines.
----- I want my LART.
Yes, $200 for a computer that does the things that most people need sounds great, and I'm excited to see it selling well. In fact, I am considering buying one to set up as a general purpose linux box.
One must remember, however, that Wal-Mart is a large corporation just like Microsoft . . . and it has a history of pouring money into stores and selling inventory at a loss to kill off competition. Though I doubt it may happen any time soon, if large numbers of users start flocking to the "Wal-Mart" PC, Microsoft may lose its footing in the operating system market, but would a market dominated by Wal-Mart be healthy?
Just something to think about.
I bought one in September to eval.
The 800 Mhz Via CPU is roughly equivalent to a 400 Mhz Celeron.
I popped in a 1.2 Ghz Celeron for $62 and it runs Much Better.
The 10 GB drive is also Very slow.
I could have built a much better machine for a little more money. Still, it isn't a bad deal.
I booted Lindows and took a quick look before blowing it away. It was really cheesy, with major pieces requiring additional purchase.
No, you're supposed to be mad that Walmart sweat shop goods are made by companies offering wages at higher than local scale. The fact is that if sweat shops disappeared, prices on goods would go up and wages in these countries would go *down*. That's just plain inhumane.
With apologies to Hanna-Barbera...
Lindows
Meet the Lindows
You're the modern Wal-Mart family
Prices
Are bottom rock
You're making Linux history
Let's force
Microsoft to retreat
This cheap
PC is so 31337!
When you're
Using Lindows
You can play all your Windows games
It still looks the same
You drive Bill Gates insane!
Constitutionally Correct
What does, concern me, however is the security of Lindows boxes. Most "average" users, while not complete idiots, don't often understand concepts behind the "root" user, security exploits, etc.
Hopefully the default Lindows install has been secured reasonably.
The problem exists with Windows machines, as well.
However, if a major security hole is found and exploited on these Lindows machines, Microsoft's PR department WILL use it to try to destroy the credibility of Linux as a whole.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
It's the cheapest machine out there. That's enough to push a lot of them out the door. Especially via WalMart, which likes to have a solid lowest-price entry in every category.
I'll bet 70% of the people buying the WalMart machines think they have Pentiums in them!! After all, they've been conditioned to accept that all computers have Pentium processors... it's only if you explicitly say "this does NOT have a Pentium" that you get those funny looks and people start to doubt. Most people think Macs have Pentiums - go ahhead and ask!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Congratulations, you are not in the target demographic for this machine which is non-computer savvy tightwads who want basic computer functionality.
So I bought one. It came with Lindows 2.0.0, but I'm running RedHat 8.0 on it (Lindows is junk!)
It also has Windows drivers on CD-ROM if you plan to go that route. Either way, it's alot of hardware for only $199.
All and all, it's a good 2nd PC for a firewall or Linux toy box!
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
I bought one when my AMD K6-2 450 finally died and it's case was donated to my cats (they love old cases). Anyways, I just wanted a cheap system to turn into a simple home server. It works perfect. I've got it running RH8.0, Samba, a firewall/gateway setup using IPTables, DHCP server and I'll soon be adding some MP3 streaming so I can listen to MP3's all over the house. It has yet to dissapoint me, despite the lag when I'm on it (since I'm only actually on it 4 hours a week or so for tweaking). All in all, it's a great warm body machine (for when anything w/ a pulse will do).
DONT PANIC
If someone is buying a Lindows box at Wal-Mart, it's very unlikely they have the knowledge or desire to seek out the parts and figure out how to build their own PC.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe. -- Carl Sagan
In response to a few criticisms of Lindows proprietary software:
Quite frankly, I think Lindows is the best chance to topple the MS empire, because of the software itself and the business plan/model behind it. Once people are using Lindows, its a few steps from there to more traditional GNU/Linux distros.
Lindows is, quite frankly, very easy to use -- even for newbies. You can't underestimate how important that is for the typical user. Remember, your parents even have a hard time using Windows or MacOS!
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
It will be definately interesting to see how well these sell, and more importantly, what the sell-to-return ratio is after Christmas. I expect a lot of people are saying "hey, cheap computer!" and putting it under the tree.
Heck, for some guy buying a computer for his almost-never-used-a-PC-before granny/mother/aunt/etc this is a great present. Cheap, goes online, runs a word processor. They're not super-fast, but they're not retarded-slow either.
I doubt you'll see many gamers buying these, but for those who are just trying to get some letters printed and emails sent, it's a good deal.
I see a lot of people suggesting that it's likely that most of these cheap computers end up getting wiped clean and having Windows installed. However, I'd like to point out that most computer manufacturers and resellers are locking themselves into really bad situations with Microsoft only because they believe they can't sell these computers without an OS or with an OS other than Windows. Wal-Mart is proving otherwise. So, even if these computers get wiped clean, perhaps other major computer resellers will take note of the fact that they can sell their quality computers without having to lock themselves into the Microsoft trap. If you think about it, this could dramatically alter the way computers are sold in the very near future.
Of course there is the person who wants to get a 3000 dollar machine for 300 dollars, for someone who will need 3000 dollars worth of tech support hours, and want that tech support for free.
Those folks I send to a chain store or Gateway or something, where they can scream at a nice warm body in person.
Someone who has a clue I do not mind sending to a wholesale house.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I think the premise is that the majority of users will want the ability to send and receive email and to be able to surf the net. I belive the more a person does the above activities, the more they will want to try other things such as installing new programs or games. Then they will be rudely awakened to the fact that the programs by and large won't install or even be available. When they realize they aren't getting the same user experience as their friends and neighbors, the public outcry will start.
Tons of different meanings on that one. Decide for yourself which way you want to take it.
I don't know a whole lot about what's inside this box hardware-wise, but doesn't it look like a great starting point for building one of those Linux-based PVR's people have been making vague squeaky noises about for months here?
Just a random thought!
- Semper Ubi Sub Ubi!
I think they don't mind because their computer is probably working a lot faster than they're used to anyway. The customer ...well, most customers aren't concerned with the label on the front of the box so much as how long they have to snooze before their Excel doc opens.
I guess I never paid much attention to Lindows but this might be one seriously sneaky way to get Linux in "under the wire." No wonder Redmond is getting hostile to that distro in particular. How dare they do more with less! SUE! SUE!
"Innovation over litigation," my ass.
And lest anyone mod me as a troll for the subject, please be aware that "It's the [insert noun], Stupid" is a fairly common in-joke when something is semi-obvious and is not directed at the writer of the story.
My
Limekiller
It does not matter what the customer does with the PC bought without an OS. Or, Lindows.
The point is that without Microsoft XP bundled in the PC can be a lot cheaper.
And, companies like Hpaq, IBM, Dell should without a doubt offer bare bones PCs without operating systems on them.
There is absolutely no reason not to do that. None. Zippo. There is none.
You can by the MB, chip, disc and keyboard and always have been able to do so. There is no reason why the parts you buy could not have a DELL or Hpaq lable on it.
Bundling XP is market manipulation by the monopolist. Nothing more. Nothing less. And, it done simply to benefit those idiots.
NexuSys - Linux support by the best
One could say that Wal-Mart is benefiting the citizens of the third-world countries that they allegedly utilize. If they didn't get the (albeit measley) salary from Wal-Mart, where else would they get it from? If there were better alternatives there, I would imagine that they would be taken as well. And if Wal-Mart were to decide to pay more for labor, then they may as well just use U.S citizens for that, but that would put those third-world citizens completely out of a job (or maybe they'd go work for Nike for something).
That's not to say that the practice isn't scummy, but it's probably worse to deny them the opportunity of sweat shop labor to begin with.
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
They would make terrible PVRs. The processor is just too weak to handle the load. Even with a hardware MPeG solution. An 800Mhz C3 is on par with a 400Mhz Celeron. My P3/550 is about as weak as I would even consider for the job and that's with the hardware encoder that's in it.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
....they should really look at this and attempt to partner up with Wal-Mart and produce a Linux version of AOL. They're desperate for revenue right now, and appealing to the $200 PC market would be a good niche to get in on. They could have sold a $250 version which includes a "free" year of AOL or something. Still not a bad deal to the price-conscious shopper.
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
OK, I'm a physician, not a techie (I read slashdot because it's so hard to find anything else intelligent to read). So perhaps I can provide the "Joe Schmoe" perspective.
I wanted to confirm what people are saying about the average Joe Schmoe not needing computer power. I'm still running an AMD K6 200 MHz processor from 1997. I have a DSL connection and Win 98SE (shudder). I surf the web with IE6, run Yahoo! Messenger, and check email with Eudora, typically all at once, often while also playing bridge on M$N Zone (sorry, M$-haters, it's the best free bridge I've found!).
I couldn't sell this box for anything, let alone $200, yet it does everything I want to do. Sure, it slows down a bit when I use everything at once, but not enough to go out and spend money. If you're a Joe Schmoe like me.
So you're right. The common man doesn't need a monster CPU, etc. That being said, don't forget that usability is key. Most people will be completely unable to surf the web and send email if they have to do too much more than plug it in, turn it on, and follow some very user-friendly instructions. If the Lindows box can't do this, it's not going to do very well.
So, can it? I hear people saying that it doesn't even come with a monitor?
Pricetag outside matters more than Intel inside.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
I bought one. I'm a programmer, with most of my work on UNIX. I, however, have to get to the UNIX box through a MicroSh*t Windows box, and have to also use Word and Excel. To be honest, I'm sick of it....
In all honesty, I'm not so thrilled with Lindows. There was no documentation, they did away with man (although most everthing is there in their "documents" tool), and promised software didn't seem to be installed. No biggie, I went and got it for free from the 'net.
I will probably end up putting Mandrake or Red Hat on it when I've got more time...
The big thing was I needed to set up a home network with printer sharing and it would have been more of a hassle to try to upgrade my Pentium 150 so that I could load a Linux Distro and all the hassles of dealing with old, proprietary Packard Bell components.
This thing got me up and running fast and cheap. I'll by the speed demon PC later....
BTW, there's no way in Hell I'd put a pirated copy of XP (or Me, 9x, NT) on this computer. It is blissfully MS free!
~whidbey
Another target user would be the low-budget buyer who isn't willing to put out the extra $100 for an MS license and sees that the boxes do what (s)he wants.
The third would probably be someone with enough money that 'blowing' $200 to find out about Linux seems entirely worth it.
I've generally been of the opinion that one of the biggest barriers to general Linux acceptance is the difficulty in finding a box with anything other than MS pre-loaded. Although I find Linux installs easier than Windows installs, it's still a pain in the butt. Most users aren't willing to buy a bare bones system w/ a separate OS and then waste their time on an install while risking being blocked by some odd incompatibility (e.g. not being able to differentiate hardware failure from installer error).
These Wall Mart boxes are pretty much the first mass-market over-the-counter Linux boxes for the masses. I may have misgivings about Lindows' software practices, but it's definitely nice to see Linux bozes in the aisles this Christmas.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
Ok, so maybe it's not a law, but here's my take on the situation.
Windows costs a lot. See my soon to be written essay on monopolies and excessive profits.
Intel chips cost a lot. Read my thoughts on comparative advantage.
Consumers will pay excessive prices for OS software until a suitable substitution is found.
Enter Lindows and Lycoris for OS, and VIA for the processor. Consumers are the judge and jury as to whether or not these "substitutions" are adequate. Preliminary sales data says: maybe.
The non-windows companies even admit to attempting to create a viable substitute:
"Spisak says his Desktop/LX software is modeled to look like Windows XP. "We've basically taken this as far as you can go without being prosecuted," he said.
I'm interested to see if this is a flash in the pan before the monopolistic powers that be quash the effort with lawsuits, or if it's the first step toward a more appropriately priced Micro$oft OS.
Time will tell...
Gary Elsasser, vice president of technology at eMachines, said that consumers wanted to be able to run any software and find computer help easily. Linux makes that hard to do.
Typical. People saying that the software that is available on windows is not available on linux. Yes, this is true that a lot of the same software is not available on linux, and sometimes it is not easy to migrate new users... but people will do it... I run a dual boot system on my laptop 'just in case' I have to use windows, but honestly I can't remember the last time I actually NEEDED to use windows. I honestly will be interested in seeing how many businesses migrate to linux for some of their applications once OpenOffice and similar free/open source office projects become available. I believe that we will see (and have already started to see) Microsofts battle against open-source, and it reminds me of the way that MaBell used to battle local telcos, undercut the competition by lowering your price. In this case, they have to undercut it to the point that they are giving it away for free. There have been several slashdot articles on this reccently, and coming from an educational institution, and talking to IT people at other educational institutions I know that Microsoft offers lots of 'perks' to institutions, including free/cheap software and the Microsoft Academic Alliance (for students) to not only get them to use MS products instead of looking for or adopting alternatives, but also to get students used to and familiar with Microsoft Products instead of products from the competition (CS students req'd to make sure code works in Vis Studio before turning it in, intro to computers or other general courses focusing mainly (if only) on MSOffice). I was going somewhere with this, but I lost track. I guess I'll just end in saying the battle with Microsoft has only begun, you might even argue that the first shots have yet to be fired...
[Something witty and intelligent should have appeared here.]
{Traicovn}
- WalMart does not sell PCs for a liiving. It's jusy one of many products.
- If this product tanks WalMart will not be hurt at all.
- WalMart does not need Uncle Bill's blessing to make money (see first point).
- These are bare-bones, bottom of the pile PCs that are selling because they are cheap.
This is not a revolution in PC sales. This is a huge desicount chain selling a second-rate computer at the lowest price they possibly can as a side project that isn't even worth putting in their stores.Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Many people have an idea that linux is some mysterous type of operating system that only computer geeks can use. Last week a coworker that was interested asked me a lot about it. My advice was to stick the installation cd in and boot the computer to see what happens, he did: the SuSE 8.0 installation went flawlessly and soon he had a dual boot system with windows and linux. He said his son was shocked to see how nice the KDE3 desktop was and both were pleasantly surprised how easy it was to install a linux distribution on a computer already loaded with windows. The more peopel realize you don't have to be a computer geek to run linux, the more they will find it a worthwhile investment. It's ironic, windows users spend months learning how to use windows and complain they are afraid to try linux because it will take too long to learn - well, some are realizing it is NOT that difficult. WalMart selling pre-loaded systems ready to go for less than $200 that work well is a very prudent thing to do these days when one does not know how long they will have a job.
>>>please remove "nospam" from email address
Okay, so $50, but close enough, eh?
Model with modem
-BrentMakes a change from "Slashdot posted the same review of these machines twice on July 4."
It's the same mentality though as the Ford Pinto (remember, the car that would explode?) It would have cost Ford roughly an 11.00 part to repair the problem with the ford pinto, but that would have put it over their magical 'final cost price' of 2000.00
They are marketing these PC's at a certain price level... that's their magic number... They don't want to go over it.
They probably don't have a modem, because the ethernet controller was probably already on the motherboard. Now, what they COULD do, form an alliance with some modem manufacturer and offer some sort of rebate on an external modem...
[Something witty and intelligent should have appeared here.]
{Traicovn}
You have obviously never seen a Michael Moore movie.
I wonder noone mentioned the poor public education. $200 per box? It's a perfect price for schools! I am going to talk to the principal - my kid complains they don't have enough computer classes b/c there is not enough of computers. ... Jeez, is it 21st century or it's a middle age?
Less is more !
"It is going to be harder to get people to adopt that sort of stuff" since most consumers want Windows, concluded Roger Kay, a PC analyst at International Data Corp. research group.
So cnn's research was right on the mark! Joe blow buys it only because of the price, and if he has any brains at all he does what you do: put in a pirated Windows on it! Now i have one question: Does ANYONE have any benchmarks for those Cyrix C3 CPU's VS P4s (all running Windows).
Oh and wasn't there an article that said that the same configuration was sold with Windows home ed. preloaded? I wonder how that one is doing...
Live for the present, learn from the past, and dream of the future!
5,000,000 Slashdot geeks went out and bought them and immediately installed $LINUX_DISTRO on them when they got home.
Some even bought 2 or 3 and gave 'em to the kids.
Others turned extra boxes into home mp3 servers.
this
# VIA C3 800 MHz processor offers comparable performance to the 800 MHz Celeron processor
# 133 MHz frontside bus
# 256 MB SDRAM, expandable to 1 GB
# 133 MHz memory speed
# 40 GB Ultra-ATA 100 hard drive, 5400 rpm (total accessible capacity varies depending on operating environment)
# 52x CD-ROM drive
# 3.5-inch floppy disk drive
# Integrated AGP 4x graphics
# Up to 8 MB shared video memory
# Integrated AC '97 sound
# 56 Kbps modem
# Integrated 10/100 Ethernet connection
# Micro ATX tower case (14"D x 7"W x 14"H)
# Available drive bays: one 5.25-inch external, one 3.5-inch external
# Total Slots: 1 PCI
# Available PCI Slots: None
# High-speed serial port
# Parallel port
# 2 front and 2 rear USB ports
# Game port
# 104-key keyboard
# 2-button mouse with wheel
# Audio port (line-in, line-out, mic-in)
# Stereo speakers
# LindowsOS operating system (pre-installed)
# Software includes mail, word processor, Web browser/file manager, address book, calculator, CD player, MP3 Player, PowerPoint viewer, Word viewer, Excel viewer and image viewer
# Games include Tron, Battleship, Poker, Minesweeper, Potato Guy
# Special Offer - Select up to 10+ software applications at no charge from theLindows.com Click-N-Run Warehouse "Starter Aisle"
# 1-year warranty, return to Microtel
Actually major manufactorers generally shine in puny junk pc's. For example, I couldn't build a machine but a tiny bit better than these junkheaps for $200... but I could build a dual althon MP for under $1500, with 1 or 2 gb ram, and 2 120hds... a cdrw, and high-end radeon. Maybe even make that a dvd-rw
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
The VIA CPU is a reincarnation of the old IDT/centaur winchip. Via purchased both centaur and cyrix after they both flopped at making x86 CPUs.
The Via c3 has only one integer unit and one fp unit, coupled with a decent-sized cache. Architecturally, the via c3 is extremely primitive, worse than the original pentium. The c3 benchmark scores are consistently about 1/3rd to 1/4th those of a celeron or a duron at the same clock speed.
That tragic this is: putting an AMD duron in this machine would have tripled the performance, and would have costed only about $10 more. The $199 lindows box was likely intended to be a no-profit "crippleware" machine, to lure people to the $299 and $399 models.
If microsoft dropped out of the scene, the desktop industry would be so much better, it wouldn't be funny. Mozilla would suddenly become #1 in browser usage... already #1 in quality. All the total idiots who couldn't even get mandrake running would stop buying junk from spammers... that would be a huge plus. And of course, we'd finally have a secure, stable, and open envirenment. :-)
Unfortunatly, it would have the backfire effect of killing Appple, but who cares about Apple?
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
One thing that doesn't seem to be mentioned here is the importance of a sub $500 PC on who buys computers. Back around the time of the Commodore Vic 20 and 64 you had a huge number of parents buying dedicated computers for young children; and poor people buying computers for themselves. Since the death of the Amiga 500 we really haven't had new computers that are cheap enough for people to casually buy them. The effects of adding say 10 or 20 million home computers to the market in terms of the spread of knowledge, broadband, games... could be quite profound.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
In the "consumer space" CPU brand, MIPS, Mega-flops, megs of RAM and gigs of disk space don't matter worth crap.
:-)
What counts is all on the bottom line.
M$ is kidding itself if it thinks people give a tinker's cuss about it's software. Most people never "got it" and haven't ever had a friggin' clue as to what all the screaming was about.
M$ Office in on the way out in the consumer space because OpenOffice is available for about half a friggin' grand less. M$ Windows is on the way out in the consumer space because Linux is available for a few hundred less.
What sells in the consumer space is whatever's "good enough" and "fast enough" (something M$ is definitely LOUSY at,) to do what people want.
The hardware is already there, has been for a couple of years. The software/bloatware is what's been holding up the works.
On the business front, as a software developer, I'd rip my own lungs out before buying Lindows for what my professional needs are, but the user work-stations (read that again "work" "station") and the MIS departments that have to keep the boxen alive are glad to have a cheap M$ alternative.
Rolling out Lindows boxen sounds like some MIS manager's big "I saved X-amount of dollars" bonus opportunity.
And at home Lindows'd be good enough... If I wasn't typing this on a slackware8.1 box and if I wasn't already a Mac maniac for my other machines.
My biggest challenge is teaching my techno-indifferent wife to use the Linux box. (She doesn't want to use the Mac either.)
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
This may be off topic, then again ...
... which ought to be worth the $20 of Asian labor they're probably using on this. But then again it's $20 of American stocking/shipping labor for an outfit to send out separate parts ... so can we build this better ourselves @ this price point?
For those of use who might throw $200 at a utility box, can anyone recommend hardware (especially motherboard and power supply) that are of better proven quality than this WalMart dohingus, yet still come in with the same (incomplete) features for not more than $200? $250? Sure, we'd as soon screw the stuff together and install our fave distro
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
If they didn't get the (albeit measley) salary from Wal-Mart, where else would they get it from?
Exactly! I mean, what WOULD those insolent darkies do without the Waltons' incredible largesse?? They should be thankful we came overseas and transformed their native cultures into God-fearing, upstanding wage-slavedom, dammit!
The Free desktop that Just Works
TigerDirect sold out of theri entire stock of 2000+ Lindows computers in less then two weeks... but then again, Slashdot readers wouldn't even know that they were for sale there!
If the chief advantage for windows in the consumer space is supposedly that consumers are not smart enough to realize that they can get a computer without windows...
Maybe they're also not smart enough to realize that they're getting a computer without Windows? If we don't trust the average purchaser to know that just because a P4 has a higher clock rate than an Athlon that it isn't necessarily faster, why would we expect them to realize whether the computer they're buying to send email has windows or lindows? To them it's a thing that sends email.
The average user probably views the OS and the computer with the same level of separation most of us assign to the transport and network layers.
Basically indistinguishable parts of the thing you use to get a web page.
paintball
Whoa, there, cowboy. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they should be kissing our ass as you seem to feel. And "darkies" is a bit extreme, don't you think? They are still human beings, after all. Like I said, I think the practice _is_ scummy, just not actionable. If someone wants to boycott them over it, it's their right, but making them pull out of third-world countries altogether certainly isn't going to be helping the people the protestors claim to care about. Now, if their gripe was that the sweatshop labor reduces American jobs, then I can see that point.
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
That would apply to the parent post. But how can you possibly justify modding a replt to an off-topic post as off-topic. Especially if it's on topic of the parent.
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.
The TigerDirect Lindows machine sold for $230.00 and had a 900 meg Duron CPU, 128 megs of RAM, a 20 gig HD, Modem, decent video, NIC, etc. They sold over 2000 of them in less then two weeks and have been out of stock for several more (apparently this machine was one of the biggest sellers in their history).
heh... actually, I was being sarcastic. You weren't particularly deserving of my bile, but after reading the whole thread, and everyones' comments, I felt the need to parody some of the things I saw from the other posters.
That said, Walmart-style labor is not just scummy, it's deplorable and inexcusable. I have no problem with overseas labor - I have a problem with forced labor and inhumane conditions.
The Free desktop that Just Works
DMCA! DMCA! DMCA!
I for one welcome our new SCOviet Russian overlords to whom all our base are belong.
Since I can't seem to find any detailed specs, does anyone know if the mobo supports PXE or some other form of net-booting?
47% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
I can't find it... Someone mentioned they use to sell them but are sold out?
I hate to be a Dell booster, but when they can basically give away P4 1.8GHz machines for $340... with XP included, I have to wonder how thin some of these profit margins actually are.
Da Blog
Is WalMart Evil this week?
(For exploiting the DMCA re: copyrighted prices)
or is WalMart Good this week?
(for selling MS-free PC's)
I'm so confused. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
but this machine is Internet ready according to the article, with no need to purchase a NIC.
A machine with a NIC and no modem, running a Linux OS, is not Internet ready if any of the following statements are true:
Will I retire or break 10K?
"Why, ah didn't know the difference and when it didn't presaint me with the qualitah ah expect from those dear ol' gennelmen at Microsoft, why ah was naturally shocked! I tried deseperately to take the horrible machine back, but the man said, 'We don't take those back, and as to your feelings, frankly we don't give a damn!' Wah, ah was close to tears! Then that brave Mr. Gates stomped the awful man into the ground with his Windows XP boots and saved they day and mah honor! I'll nevah switch again!"
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
true. But they also dont mention how much more efficient Linux is to the afformentioned. The $200 dollar Linux machine might seem much faster than the $400 dollar machine that runs "millions" of programs.
"A good friend will bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, 'damn....that was fun!'"
Just because I don't like lies about 'sweat shop' labor doesn't mean I cotton to illegality. If Wal-Mart has really been running a criminal conspiracy to end-run the union laws then let them burn. Somehow I think reality might just be a little more complicated than that.
The big flaw with Lindows is the Click-N-Run package (it was discussed in an article previously here on /. but i don't have time to hunt it down right now).
Point of it was, it'd be great... Lindows is good, Click-N-Run sucks. Thats how you have to get all your apps. You get 10 free downloads from their junk aisle or something. And there were questions about what if the download fails, does it still count? and what about making backups of your downloaded software (definately not for a novice). Also, supposedly (i have no 1st hand knowledge) some of the software Click-N-Run charges for is avail. for free elsewhere on the web (OpenOffice?). But, i guess they're charging for the convenience of downloading it from them and whatever else their client software does.
As far as just Lindows goes, the UI is okay, and the existing apps are still more than you get with a base install of windows (sans bundled software). But it's in no way complete. Also, the target market for this machine is probably not going to have DSL/Cable, so those Click-N-Run downloads (if they go for them) are going to take a while.
So, Lindows=NotBad Click-N-Run=JustRun
DONT PANIC
That only holds true if the process of freeing up all that labor doesn't grow the pie.
The truth is that the rich (1st worlders) can share the wealth by buying the poor off, they can end up like the french aristocracy and get their heads sliced or they can liberate the enslaved 3rd world from the thugs who have run their local states into the ground.
I prefer option three thank you. It maximizes morality, produced wealth, and doesn't involve too many feel good campaigns that actually screw the poor.
I said: I read slashdot because it's so hard to find anything else intelligent to read.
People replied: And Slashdot intelligent? Haw.... It's worse out there on the Internet than we thought.... Keep searching...
Wow, that was a robust response. No kidding, guys&gals. Without the time or patience to surf, I used to have to tolerate the big-media news feeds, who seem to think that Winona Ryder Busted for Shoplifting is big news.
Admittedly, to refine the /. content, I read at a +3 threshold with -2 for Funny and +1 for Insightful. I only lower the threshold if a thread interests me enough to consider replying (so that I won't be redundant). Try those settings for yourself; suddenly, /. seems pretty damn smart.
P.S. Sorry if this is offtopic; mod me down if you must. I know that those replies were just friendly jesting, but the topic touched a nerve. I hate stupidity.
My father is trying to start a software company, and I know for a fact that he could not install Windows. Heck, a friend of mine just graduated with a Computer Science degree from my university, and I had to walk her through installing Windows 98 (the only reasonable windows to install on a machine with these specs). I spent 2 hours on the phone with her, and she is to this day proud to have "done it herself". Installing an OS is nothing a typical user can do. Just because we have done it thousands of times, doesn't mean the "Average" user can use fdisk, format, etc. Never overestimate the user!
Now, everybody in the South goes to WalMart for practically everything. I can't stand the warehouse atmosphere of the place, but oh well. The point is that, here we have a non-Microsoft computer with good visibility. True, many of the people buying it do so because it's cheap, but the fact remains:they didn't care that it didn't have Windows! More non-Microsoft computers need to get on the shelves and in the stores where people who don't read Slashdot will have corporeal evidence that they exist, and I firmly believe Microsoft's monopoly would crumble.
There is a franchise in New Zealand called Dick Smiths, which is a electronics type place which sells a lot of stuff for the home. Anyway, They started selling headless boxen with Mandrake installed... and when they released them they sold out real quick. Im not sure if it was because of Linux, The price, or both. But one thing is for sure, Linux is really starting to get out there.
The ddr which came witht he system was a bit of a surprise, it was unbranded, but took aggressive memory timing (2-2-5-2-4) and cas 2. Pushing the FSB up to 136+ gave me 2GB/s memroy bandwidth in Sandra which made the onboard s3 graphics fairly decent.
The case was not the most attractive thing in the world, but it was damn sturdy and the quality seemed on par with cases from Antec.
Even with Windows, these machines are a great bargain and offer quality parts whcih exceed anything you can expect to get from Dell or Gateway costing a few hundred more.
... Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed...
Average joe buys a PC and re-installs the OS? Yeah right.
But they do know Pentium = Computer! That's more what I was trying to say.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It's a good start into a market void, where we NEED a commodity device. Think about all the $15 - $50 PDA's. Sure they don't run palmOS. They can't do a lot of things a CE device can. SO? There's a market for them. How about those "laptops" for little kids? They're just toys. Some of them do a minimal amount of wordprocessing or calculator functions, or maybe they just moo and oink, who cares?
So there's a niche where a cheap as hell PC that does the stuff that a PC does, but is cheap as hell, would be very marketable. To all those folks who want a PDA, but don't want to spend the bucks for a Palm, and certainly not for something like a Zarus. Just like there's expensive phones and cheap as hell phones. Or cheap stereos.
There's a market for a cheap computer. If it does what it needs to do, software and file compatability be damned. There are a whole lot of people that, if they can't open a particular file format or view some funky proprietary content on the web, will just go "huh? oh well." and they'll get on with their lives! I'll bet if you had a few games for the platform that weren't on other platforms, they'd sell, too. And people would not be all that upset that Windows games don't work, provided you did not give them that expectation. People may not be knowledgeable, but they are NOT stupid. (I hail from a small town in East Texas, and believe I'm qualified to speak on that matter!)
I really don't think incompatability would hurt here as much as other people seem to think it will, and certainly not as much as Microsoft is betting it will. Do the people with $10 pda's care if they can't run palm apps? Do you really think the people with self-contained workflow are going to care whether they run Koffice, Openoffice, or word?
Microsoft, and all the software publishers (games mostly!) have created the expectation in consumers that "computer == runs windows software" but, I don't think that'll be terribly hard to break. Look at the console market, or any other product that has an aftermarket where accessories on one brand are incompatible with another.
Vacuum cleaner bags. They get it. I buy a Hoover, I need Type H bags. I buy a Eureka, I need type AA bags. I'll even bet some of them check the price, and they see if H bags are $3.00 and AA bags are $1.50, it influences their decision. But they get it, and they don't end up returning the Eureka because it doesn't use the Hoover bag.
Game consoles. Nobody has a problem understanding that Nintendo games don't fit Sony. And they're okay with that. Camera film comes to mind as another example, but seems somewhat anachronistic today.
So it doesn't come with Word? Well, that's a social problem for some people. The idea that not being able (or willing) to read a Word Doc might cost your job, etc.
Not everybody has their career resting on being able to open or save a powerpoint or a word doc.
Lots of us are in that predicament, but, we're not the ones buying a $50 PC, are we? (Yes I know the lindows box is more like $200, but, I'm seeing the possibility).
The main thing that distinguishes "Computers" and "Peripherals, Software" from "Vacuum cleaners" and "Bags" is that the retailers have thoroughly ingrained the notion that "Computer == Windows" into the consumer's mind. But guess what? They can STILL sell something else, as long as they don't instill a false expectation in that customer.
To be sure, there will be salespeople claiming that Lindows runs Game X, Application Y. There will be people returning these things, partly just because people return things to Walmart, and partly because it hasn't met their expectations.
There will be people who immediately wipe the disk and install windows on it.
And there will be people who use the system, never adding anything to it, happily emailing stories about the newborn poodle or how the floor of the shed needs to be fixed and can you pay the insurance on the truck this month to their kids and grandkids on the west coast. There will be a web resource here and there that won't load in opera or mozilla or whatever, sure, but if it *WORKS* and does what the customer expects it to do, it DOESN'T MATTER ONE BIT that it isn't Windows!
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Actually, Quicktime movies can be played native by the new version of MPlayer...I figure it will be included in the next distros or so (with perhaps a dowload for the codecs - I'm not sure on the legal details about their distribution). Xine can already play Quicktime movies, just not those who use the Sorenson codec.
Reminder: find a new sig
Don't you mean UNIXEN? Now excuse me I have to go reboot the Vaxen.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
That's why this is perfect, it's not a no OS at all solution, there is an OS on the machine. True grandma probably does not make a distinction between MS and linux, but her grandkids will and suddenly become aware that there are other things than microsoft in the world and that's a start... it doesn't really matter if they like linux. Linux is just another OS, they don't have to like linux, or BSD, just knowing there are other things out there is a start. Some will take the next step and play with them. Some will like them. Other's will like them better but not enough, contribute to something that already exists, or perhaps come up with something better.
I think this is scary because people like us who actually need/use higher end hardware will end up paying more.
I wonder how many people actually need higher end hardware. I still use a PII/266, and the only thing that I really would like to do that I can't is software DVD decoding. That becomes feasible at about a PII/400. Beyond that...well, there are games, but there are always games, and games hardly classify as a "need" item.
What you're identifying is that there's a broad spectrum of products out there. Maybe you drive...oh, I don't know. A Ford. Nothing wrong with that Ford. Sure, there are Ferraris out there, but that doesn't make the Ford any worse, except maybe as a status symbol. Don't measure what's "good" by what is "most expensive" or even "best". Just because there's something "better" out there doesn't mean that you need it.
I have to buy a very high end hard drive in the SCSI range if I want to get a decent warranty.
It certainly depends on your idea of a "decent" warranty. Most people are thinking about upgrading their hard drives after about three years or so, which is available even on the cheapest hard drives through extended warranties. You really don't need an $800 SCSI hard drive (and the surprisingly little amount of reliability said money buys you) to get reasonable storage.
Ever notice that all the reasonably priced network cards have cheapo Realtek chipsets?
You know, the only real user-noticable difference I've seen at a basic functionality level (ignoring Wake On LAN and stuff like that) is in driver quality. 3com does have (had) significantly more solid Linux drivers -- it used to be that both tulip and rtk-8139 (or whatever the name was) did a full reset after 16 failed transmits -- disaster on a totally saturated Ethernet. It required about two seconds. My 3c905b's driver, OTOH, kept on chugging.
If you open up your RealTek driver, you'll notice lots of nasty comments from Donald Becker (Mister Linux Ethernet himself) about lousy RealTek design, but there really isn't a whole lot of bad stuff to them in a normal environment. So maybe there's something I'm missing. But frankly, I can't pick up any difference between Ethernet cards -- just the drivers.
Cases are really cheap and I want a good one, I probably have to send CAD$200+ to get an aluminum one with good airflow and slots for HDD cooling fans.
So don't build a system that generates that much heat. It is a bit depressing that hardware manufacturers have strayed a bit far towards the "damn the heat, performance at all costs" path, but you really do not need an aluminum case or hard drive fans. Get some nice cool quiet 5400 RPM drives, and relax.
Server quality mobos aren't exactly cheap either.
"Server quality"? What, you expect your ordinary old motherboard to spontaneously fail? It's solid state. Unless you damage the thing, it's going to be fine.
Twice in my life, I've blamed a motherboard for hardware issues. Both times it was a PCI card (once video, once Firewire). Motherboards are tough little beasts -- you really do not need a "server quality mobo", whatever you mean by that.
May we never see th
I could never understand why people bitterly hate Wal-Mart so much. They are simply not a bad company. They provide reasonable products, pretty good returns, and pretty good prices. Yes, they beat a lot of competitors (and this is partly a result of these facts). But from a consumer's point of view, Wal-Mart is a Good Thing.
May we never see th
MS need the buyers of PCs not to understand how they work. There is a delibrate attempt by MS to blur the boundary between apps, OS and hardware so the public doesn't realise that it's the applications that they actually want to run. If Joe Public suddenly realises that they can run email, web, wp, calender etc on any platform without any important change to the user interface, MS will lose control of the market.
I already have an upscale PC. My old utility servers, however, are starting to fail with frightening regularity. I need utility servers that can work as NFS servers, DNS server, external web server, print/backup server, etc. I dont want to pay 350 dollars for power I dont need. If I can use a $199 machine for the same job, I will get the $199 machine. In fact, if I can get 4 of them for $800, even better. That's less than I paid for my upscale machine for my infrastructure needs.
There's a place for $350 machines. There's a place for $1500 machines too. But there's definitely a place for $199 machines, and there's starting to be quite a large number of things you can do with those machines.
The majority of people who have no idea of how to run anything without Windows on it won't know how to install Windows.
I bought a $230 computer from TigerDirect that has 1300MHz Duron, 128 RAM, 10G HD, Built-in NIC and Video, and hardware 56k modem. The package included Lindows 2.0 and an office app.
very reasonable.
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
While having Wal-Mart sell Lindows is interetsing, I'm not sure how much benefit Linux will ultimately reap, because:
/. target, is all of a sudden one of the good guys. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend?)
1. People will not necessarily associate Lindows with Linux - more likely think it's a cheap Windows clone;
2. If and when Lindows doesn't run something, they'll assume it's Lindows fault, not that that's the price of running Lindows; so, If they do link Lindows with Linux, they assume it's an OS for cheap machines; and that Linux has all the faults and problems that Lindows has (i.e. not 100% Windows compatable) Never mind it isn't intended to be a Windows clone, any bad impressions of Lindows will reflect on Linux.
As a side note, it's interesting that Wal-mart, another favorite
Also, how well is Lindows complying with GPL terms? If they are successfull, they may be reluctant to give away what they view as the foundation of tehir success, and have the cash to fend off challenges.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Is this a standard Mini-ITX system? If so you could buy one of these and move it into a sexier case and have a great toaster sized system for elss than buying the parts alone would probably cost you and a left over case to slap a normal Micro-ATX mobo in.
I'm thinking of buying one of these to use as a video server. Drop in a couple 130 gigger drives (the biggest it can handle) and store ripped dvd's and cd's that can be played over the network or directly to the tv if this has the noraml tv-out port mini-ITX mobo's have. Trying to replace my vcr/dvd/cd players with a single small/cheap box.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
The average user probably views the OS and the computer with the same level of separation...
Heh, whenever I mention the term "operating system" to less knowledgable people (actually make that most people) they have no idea what I'm talking about. I get "What's an operating system?" Or "What's the desktop?" Basically I end up defining the operating system as "Windows." Try explaining Unix/Linux/BSD to someone who doesn't even know what an operating system is.
-- Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat.
> Maybe they're also not smart enough to realize that they're
> getting a computer without Windows?
Sure, but when they take it home and use it, will they notice even
then? Not likely. Eventually someone will point it out to them:
"Hey, I don't recognise your Windows, it's different from mine. I
bet it's not Microsoft at all." Will they care? Or will they be
like "Huh, well, I don't know about that, but when I click the
little envelope thingy I get my mail."
If Wal*Mart gets a small enough number of returns on these things,
and enough sales, maybe they'll decide to carry them in the actual
_stores_...
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Troll? Can someone explain to me how two moderators thought this post was a troll? I can't envision it at all, even takign a contrary point of view to my post's opinions.
11*43+456^2
I dunno what crack this guy is smoking, but Walmart does indeed sell Mature rated games. They just refused to sell BMW XXX because it was ADULT ONLY. A big step from Mature. You can buy Grand Theft Auto, and the new Vice City, etc etc .. They have all the violent shooters, they have id's DOOM and QUAKE games, Unreal Tournament, etc etc.. I find it funny when someone makes stuff up.. Your figure of Walmart selling 25% of ALL games in the USA is also bogus. Try less than 1 percent. Thanks.
Cool to know that you're associating guns = violence. Look out, those crazy rabit hunters and target shooters are gunna kill you for saying that! They got their guns and all, so that must mean they're cold blooded killers!
I've never seen any of his movies, yet I hate the man. I've seen enough interviews and excerpts to know that he is the very definition of sophistry. He uses simplistic and shallow reasoning to demonize people for his own personal gain.
He reminds me of Noam Chomsky, in a way. The both take facts out of context and shine them in the worst light possible while completely ignoring any facts that don't fit their twisted world view. The difference between Chomsky and Moore is that Chomsky is extremely intelligent but literally insane, and Moore is stupid but crafty and devious. Moore knows exactly what he's doing by using only emotional manipulation for his movie subjects, but is too intellectually limited to do complete, in-depth analysis of his documentary subjects.
Regardless of whether you agree with his politics or not, that guy is the devil.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
In this movie Moore takes in everything into account. He looks into every nook an cranny hoping to find an answer. He doesn't ignore anything like you assume.
OK, here's a good example of what I'm talking about. From someone who saw the movie:
So explain to me how someone can be intellectually honest as you claim, yet quote raw murder numbers without accounting for dramatic differences in population? Answer: emotional manipulation. It has a bigger emotional impact to compare 11,000 to 165.
And his tactic of making anyone he doesn't like look like an idiot through clever cutting and leading questions is typical moore.
What's wrong with puting a real face to the statistics?
Nothing, as long as it's not used for dishonest manipulation. It's no better than when Meryl Streep got up in front of Congress screeching "won't someone think of the children" to complain about Alar -- when there was absolutely no safety risk at all. Or silicone breast implants -- which are completely safe, but emotional manipulation of juries caused the bankruptcy of a major company.
That's what offends me so much about Michael Moore. He uses emotional manipulation to try and cloud the issues. Sure, maybe he doesn't come out and say "I want you to think this", but what's the difference when he stacks the deck so obviously?
He probably offends me more than he really warrants, since he has so little actual relevence, but I absolutely DETEST emotional manipulation. It's not the way to get to the heart of important issues.
yet you say Moore's evil without even seeing what this man actually does for a living.
Like I said, I haven't seen his films all the way through, but I've seen enough exerpts and seen enough interviews to know what he's about. Or to put it another way, you don't have to have read Mein Kampf to know Hitler was a bad guy.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Now I wasn't writing down the stats when I was watching the movie, but that sounds like a good idea and that's something I'll do when I rent it.
Here's something else to ask yourself. If Moore is just a honest man in search of the truth, why does he feel the need to make anyone look like a baffoon in his movies? Your answer may be "he doesn't, he's just showing what they themselves say". But you know that's a cop-out. You can make anyone look like an idiot depending on how you cut the film. Moore obviously knew that his subject was going to look like an idiot, and that the subject obviously wasn't intending that. Why not take some extra time to give the subject a chance to fill out his argument?
Then there was this quote from another IMDB poster...
So why go after Dick Clark? Because he gave Moore some juicy film to use?
The thing about Moore is that he obviously has some talent for invoking emotion (obviously), and raising questions. If only he would use that talent for good instead of evil.
But then he probably wouldn't make as much money, or get as many accolades from the Hollywood left.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Put linux in that box and you can do more! I have an even slower machine--intel pentium 200 Mhz processor (not pentium II, III, or 4) without MMX. I'm currently running linux mandrake 8.2, with openoffice installed. I didn't mean to get in a pissing match, but just wanted to actually try to present to you an alternative to get that "new box" feeling. I'm a grad student myself, and this box supplies me with just about all the tools I need to do my work--latex to write my dissertation, opencalc for spreadsheet work, xfig for vector graphics and figures--and it gets uptimes of over 30 days.
Linux at home
I saw him on shows promoting Roger and Me and later as a commentator on a few cable shows and I've read a few written pieces by him on the internet. He's a buffoon.
If you're a fan, sorry to hear that but that won't change my own opinion based on my personal experience of the man.
The situation in Puerto Rico would be unacceptable for someone of the libertarian persuation, but would you rather live in Puerto Rico, essentially living in a colony, or live in an independent country like the Dominican Republic or Haiti?
There's a saying here in Mexico that has some parallel to Puerto Rico: "It is better to be the lion's tail than the mouse's head"
No sig for the moment.
Actually if you compare the US to Switzerland the US has fewer arms and a higher murder rate. And Switzerland is very much an apt comparison because it's a multicultural society (french, italian, and german) just like the US. Of course nobody is quite as multicultural as we are (we have significant populations from all over) but Switzerland is the best comparison to control for the effects of different cultures rubbing each other the wrong way.
So, Did Bowling for Columbine explain the Swiss higher arms, lower murder rate story? I didn't think so. That would be too honest for Michael Moore. A buffoon, once again.