Thoughts on the MSN Web TV Device?

elmore asks: "I was watching television tonight and saw a commercial for the new MSN web TV device. Normally I completely dismiss anything Microsoft comes up with but this seems pretty nifty. I like this device because my grandparents and my mother are fairly...'challenged'...when it comes to the internet. Sticking with my gut, I'd like to ask the Slashdot community what web TV devices you've seen and/or given to your internet 'challenged' family or friends."

Comments

Re:TIVO

[Yohahn]

I guess that I should point out that I misread WebTV device as TV device.

Oops.

is this what you mean?

[BigBir3d]

I found it here the other day, but I haven't seen any real advertising push for it yet...

Re:is this what you mean?

[stubear]

While that looks to be a great Windows XP Media Center PC, I believe this is what the original poster was inquiring about.

While I have had no personal experience with this IA kit, I have had some experience with the MSN web service and I have to say it's really good, especially for users who aren't technically inclined. The MSN service doesn't hold your hand nearly as much as the AOL service but it offers the same integrated package that makes users feel comfortable.

It appears that this kit from RCA merely brings this service to the television set. I'd give it the thumbs up for users who want the internet but don't want to deal with the hassles of a computer. The only downside I can see to this is when one person wants to check e-mail or surf the web but the other is watching a football or baseball game on TV and doesn't want to give up the set.

Re:is this what you mean?

[Twirlip of the Mists]

While that looks to be a great Windows XP Media Center PC....

For $2,000!? I don't think so. It'll never be great until it costs less than your average HDTV.

Re:is this what you mean?

[erpbridge]

Methinks someone forgot to press the shift key... unless, that is, you really did mean to say you've got a 55 FOOT TV.

If so, then I envy little Johnny.

Only do this...

[cybermace5]

...if you want to keep them permanently challenged.

You may initially not have to provide tech support, but you will eventually. Grandma will want to know how to do all the things her friends can with their PCs, and you'll not only have to teach her how to use a computer, you'll have to un-teach her WebTV.

Re:Only do this...

[mmaddox]

This is complete bullshit. None of my grandma's friends even CARE to show off their technological prowess, unlike the \. reader. Most people who would respond positively to WebTV will continue to respond positively to it, no matter what their alternatives are. Younger persons might show interest in expanded capabilities, but the over-65 crowd is notorious for sticking with tried-and-true technologies.

Now DON'T respond with nyah-nyah exceptions to this, because they DO exist. I admit it. But I think the generalization works well enough for the age group.

Re:Only do this...

[IntlHarvester]

I got my mother one of these about 3-4 years ago (because I hate providing tech support), and guess what? I have NEVER had to provide tech support. Whoop! So in my book these things are great.

(Once the thing borked, but the WebTV people talked her through reseting it, which I gather involved redownloading the OS.)

So, in my book these devices are great. Sure Mom is "permanently challenged" (is that PC for "retarded"?), but she gets her e-mail when the little light blinks and that's all that really matters.

Meanwhile her friends are scared shitless of their iMacs given to them by their 'helpful' sons and are always taking them in for "repair".

The one downside to these things is that the WebTV Internet is completely spamvertised. Everything about it is designed to encourage you to go to MS's marketing "partners" -- you can't set your home page, you can't set your search page, it's difficult to enter URLs, etc. But mom uses it mostly for e-mail, so it's OK.

The other downside is that MS takes a big loss on these things, they haven't proved very popular, dot-com stuff like this ain't cool anymore, and eventually the service will probably be disconnected (or there will be a XBox Forced Upgrade).

The thing to understand is that WebTV is a Dumb Terminal for End lUsers, which one would think fits the Unix jockey model of the world perfectly.

Re:Only do this...

[cybermace5]

ALL of the older/tech-unsavvy people I know have one reason to get online: kids, grandkids, and other relatives. ALL of the ones I know want to send email, of course, but they also want to get and send photos, save them, print them out, not to mention type letters and include photos in the letters. Maybe some people can't handle learning the minimal skills to operate even an iMac. Most I've come across take minimal teaching, to learn how scan photos, resize them to a reasonable resolution, edit documents, and change inkjet cartridges. They have no problem learning, once there is motivation.

I bought one for my grandmother

[Gaijin42]

I bought a WebTV for my grandmother. Its great, she can get on and send email around, surf the web, shop for her antiques on ebay and do cool stuff.

The downsides : No local storage for images or emails. She has to re-download stuff every time. And her email gets purged after a while, so she can't save that new grandchild picture forever

No games (not a big deal for my grandmother, but dont buy it for your 15 year old cousin!)

No wordproccessing/excel/etc. My grandmother would have some use for Word, so she could write letters to her lawyer, or to different companies/groups, but she doesnt have this.

The deal with WebTV, is know what you are buying, and what you need. If its just for email, and surfing, its great. If you want more than that, go buy them a 300$ computer at best buy, or (shudder) a mac!

Oh, and make sure you buy the keyboard, it makes everything MUCH easier than typing with a remote control

Works great for us

[Anonymous Coward]

My siblings and I bought a Web TV for my parents, both in their 70's, both raised Amish, so they aren't the most technologically able people. It works very good for them. It's simple, they can surf and get e-mail, and because there is no hard drive and no "real" OS, viruses don't affect them. Sure, its uses are limited, but as long as you know exactly what you're going to use it for, it works quite well.

Re:Works great for us

[Gudlyf]

"...viruses don't affect them."

That is unless the 911 Virus has been fixed.

cheapest solution

[paradesign]

a sega dreamcast, seriously

you can get them for about $45 now. they have built in 56k and availabale brodband support. There is an available mouse and keyboard that can be had for about $30 together, otherwise i think theres a ps2 to dc converter. your local funcoland will most liokely be willing to give you the web browser disk, otherwise its like 79cents.

so for about $70 your up and running.

also you can play games that are still awesome, of which many will appeal to the older audience, my grandpa loves chu chu rocket! plus if they dont like it you can keep it and run a whole crap load of homebrew software, and emulators.

Re:cheapest solution

[toast0]

By available broadband support, you of course mean by spending somewhere over $100 for the nic.

If you get the cheaper nic, then you have to use a japanese web browser, which may be hard for the elderly who don't read japanese.

I don't know that using broadband will be particularly important, or if the webTV devices support it at all.

Re:cheapest solution

[someguy]

Where do I get the new version of the browser?

I'm still angry that I got the BBA and it didn't include a browser that supported it. And the software support... What a fiasco.

Re:cheapest solution

[hether]

I don't know anything about Dreamcasts. I'm curious to know, how do you get email on a Dreamcast???? Do you have to install an OS on it first? I mean, its a gaming system. Did it come with those capabilities?

ISP lockin

[Hubert_Shrump]

(Before we start, let me mention I used to work for them, so this isn't just mad bashing, this was the policy I observed)

These will only get support using M$ as the ISP, if you try to go with another, you're going to have an uphill battle.

We were directly told to keep tech information about the web tv from the customer, like how to get it to work with other password formats than MSN's, and how to reset the firmware (even their embedded systems needed reboots?!).

Again, this was back when WebTv was another corp that had been recently been eaten by M$, I don't know if the design changed to be friendlier to other ISPs, but (ahem) I don't imagine that they went out of their way to have some competition.

Phillips WebTV Works Great

[hether]

We got a Phillips WebTV unit for my husband's parents about 3+ years ago. (If my understanding is correct the new MSN ones are just the latest incarnation of the same machine). It works great for email and simple web surfing, which is about all they need it for. I don't like using it because its frustrating as hell not to have control of what's going on and to be able to multi-task, but for people who've never used computers and have no desire to, it's great.

The thing they most like about it, is that it appears on the TV. Since they have a very large TV, its very easy to read. Also, they said if they had a computer they'd have to go off into another room or office to use it, rather than doing it from the comfy chairs in the living room. :-) I guess they think going off to use the computer by yourself in some small room isn't as desirable as doing it socially and both getting to read the messages together. (That social aspect, and everyone seeing what you're looking at, could be very undesirable for some people).

As another person has said, definitely get the keyboard. Using the remote is a pain. The only major thing we've had a problem with is that the keywords seem to be somewhat fragile or break easily. We've already had to order them a replacment once, and it looks like we might have to again.

My biggest frustration is the page size limit. When visiting a page such as E-Bay that has dozens of listings, the page cuts off and displays a warning about the page being too large. You can't get to the end of it then! I don't know if this problem is caused by the physical viewing size of the page (since webtv resizes things and makes pages much longer), or the time it takes to download. Same problem with Hotmail, but there at least I could limit the messages per page for them so they could see them all.

All in all IMO the device has its uses, but isn't for everyone.

Re:Phillips WebTV Works Great

[Gudlyf]

"My biggest frustration is the page size limit. When visiting a page such as E-Bay that has dozens of listings, the page cuts off and displays a warning about the page being too large. You can't get to the end of it then! I don't know if this problem is caused by the physical viewing size of the page (since webtv resizes things and makes pages much longer), or the time it takes to download."

It's probably the limited physical memory in the WebTV -- there's only so much it can download before it'll get used up.

Educate, don't capitulate

[Gothmolly]

Technology requires education. There is no "magic bullet". Driving a car takes lessons, an understanding of how a clutch works, and practice. Operating a forklift requires skill, and an understanding of how all the buttons and levers work. Performing brain surgery requires time and devotion to the craft.
People have watched too much TV - there is no "Computer" that you can talk to like on Star Trek. Computer technology is no different than other technology - sewing machines, lawn mowers. Face it: THERE IS A LEARNING CURVE.

Re:Educate, don't capitulate

[pauljlucas]

Computer technology is no different than other technology - sewing machines, lawn mowers.

We know that, but the problem is that a lot of people, especially of the older generation, don't know that. They perceive a computer as something too new, something they never had exposure to growing up, and therefore alien, complicated, and intimidating. (They had exposure to sewing machines and lawn mowers as kids even if they didn't personally use them.) Their brains simply switch off to cut their losses at embarassment rather than spending hours trying to figure out only to still not understand it and feel like an even bigger idiot.

Re:Educate, don't capitulate

[dstone]

Driving a car takes lessons, an understanding of how a clutch works, and practice.

Nobody needs to know how to use a clutch today, just like nobody needs to know how to crank start a car or kick-start a motorcycle (unless you really want to for a specialized application). It still requires practice, but very little learning on the mechanical and technical fronts compare to a couple of generations ago. Are we heading towards roads and cars that communicate with each other to the point of navigation not requiring any practice? Yes, at some point. You'll be able to step into a car and choose your destination and effectively own and operate your car without any learning required. Home bakers don't have to learn and practice to kneed or roll dough anymore. There are computers you can talk to to accomplish simple useful things, but not to degree of Star Trek. Will I be able to do something next year that I couldn't do this year simply by speaking to a computer? Absolutely. Small steps, but each one eliminates the learning curve for someone who just wanted to do something simple. Learning curves change drastically over time. Some go away completely, unless you're a tinkerer or hobbyist or professional user.

Computer technology is no different than other technology.

Other technologies commonly have computers to thank for drastic reductions in their learning curves. Fuzzy logic bread makers and washers that really work well. No knowledge of stains or dirt or bleach or gluten or yeast tricks are required. I'm sure you'll find a microcontroller in your lawn mower and sewing machine, and that has a lot to do with them being easier to use. I used to have to understand how to 'prime' my mower and pull the cord with just the right 'snap'. Now, I press a button labelled 'Start'. I don't need to learn anything about a lawn mower now before using it. Computers quicken the reduction of learning curves. Five or six years ago (pre-USB) my elder relatives couldn't dream of learning enough to buy a parallel port printer and install it and the drivers and configure it themselves. You know what one of them did this weekend? Bought a printer, plugged it in, watched it get auto-recognized and config'ed by the OS, and they were printing web pages in minutes. The important point here is they 'learned' nothing in the process. Nada. That's how it should be. Learning curves are being reduced to -zero- for basic users all the time. We should expect this.

Re:TIVO

[cafebabe]

Actually, it does look like this new version has a PVR built into it, too. The description said you could control live TV.