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Largo Loving Linux

Posted by michael on from the not-megatokyo's-largo dept.

A little over a year ago, dot.kde.org and Newsforge did stories on the Linux-based systems being used in Largo, FL to run the city government. Roblimo went down there, drank their coffee, and wrote a follow-up piece which might be, but wasn't, entitled "How to be a sysadmin whose pager doesn't go off". (Newsforge is part of OSDN.)

58 of 351 comments (clear)

  1. The sysadmins sound so... disturbing. by immanis · · Score: 5, Funny

    Everything backed up... neat stacks of CAT5... no emergencies... no rushing...

    Are we quite sure these guys are HUMAN sysadmins, not evil intergalactic sysadmins from Myronacia here to lure us all into their evil plot of low-stress jobs and a life of being eaten?

    --

    best web host ever

    1. Re:The sysadmins sound so... disturbing. by dildatron · · Score: 5, Funny

      They shouldn't have given themselves away. It is clear from the description that these aren't real sysadmins at all.

      I bet they don't even drink caffeinated coffee or have Big Ol' Programmers' Beards!

      --


      If you had nuts on your chin, would they be chin nuts?
    2. Re:The sysadmins sound so... disturbing. by sisukapalli1 · · Score: 4, Funny

      This reminds me of an old joke about the USSR:

      A worker complains about how he is having trouble at his factory: if he goes five minutes late, the managers think he is irresponsible; if he goes five minutes early, the managers think he is there to plan some coup.

      His friend suggests him to go on time, to which the worker says, "Then, they will are grill me about where I smuggled such an accurate watch from".

      Likewise, I am sure the MS reps (and Dubya's brother in FL) would complain that since it doesn't crash often, it must not be doing something big!

      Ofcourse, if it is doing something big and doesn't crash, then it should be some plot by the "terrorists".

      S

  2. Who cares what Great Teacher Largo thinks? by tmhsiao · · Score: 5, Funny

    What does Hayasaka think of it.

    --
    "My God...It's full of ads!" -Fry, about the Internet, Futurama
  3. Local and state governments by crumbz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Considering that 40 out of the 50 U.S. states are experience severe budget shortfalls, a good way to get more bang for the buck is to consider switching to open sourced software. You have:

    1) Front-end savings on licensing.(perhaps offset by re-training costs)
    2) Savings on future licensing
    3) Less tech support headaches and consequently less staffing requirements.

    As the article illustrates, spending 1.3% off a municipal budget vs. 3% (or 4%) is a substantial savings. Bring that up to the state level and you are talking tens to hundreds of millions.

    I won't even start talking about the Feds...

    1. Re:Local and state governments by mark_lybarger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      it's also a way to spend money they don't have. migrating systems like this costs money.

      my wife always tries that one one me when she goes shopping. "it was on sale, so i was actually saving us money". then i look at the checkbook balances and wonder how all those savings are actually debits to the accounts...

      the states should have considered open source systems highly 2-3 years ago when they were over inflating their own budgets and spending along with the economies (some were still putting a few dimes away for their rainy day fund which has all been used up by now). open source benefits begin with the initial systems planing and development phase. it would be really hard to justify spending money on migrating systems for future preceived savings.

    2. Re:Local and state governments by AUsBandit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Any government of the people, for the people, by the people not using an OS of the people, for the people, by the people should be ashamed of itself.

    3. Re:Local and state governments by tsetem · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the states should have considered open source systems highly 2-3 years ago when they were over inflating their own budgets and spending along with the economies (some were still putting a few dimes away for their rainy day fund which has all been used up by now). open source benefits begin with the initial systems planing and development phase. it would be really hard to justify spending money on migrating systems for future preceived savings.

      Don't forget though, every IT department is not in between their upgrade cycles. Some may be (and really should be) planning IT improvements once the economy improves, and tax revenues are flowing again.

      Just because you don't have money today, doesn't mean you shouldn't make plans for when you do have money again.

    4. Re:Local and state governments by Red_Winestain · · Score: 5, Funny
      Any government of the people, for the people, by the people not using an OS of the people, for the people, by the people should be ashamed of itself.

      Yes, but any government of the corporations, for the corporations, by the corporations not using an OS of the corporations, for the corporations, by the corporations should similarly be ashamed of itself.

    5. Re:Local and state governments by m1a1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      it would be really hard to justify spending money on migrating systems for future preceived savings.

      That is why migration should not be sudden, but rather a process. Slowly integrate OSS machines into the network (chances are the webservers are already running linux or a bsd) and then eventually kill off commercial machines you don't want anymore. That kind of migration is, in my opinion, the best. Sudden change scares people. But a slow, methodical shift keeps everyone happy.

    6. Re:Local and state governments by Col.+Panic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Future perceived savings? FUD. When product support for older Microsoft platforms is discontinued and the .NET subscription-based platform is the only option Microsoft offers, subscribers will see a recurring cost for their servers. Linux will cost something for migration, but once it's up the cost savings should make it extremely cost-effective.

  4. Interesting quotes by PhysicsGenius · · Score: 4, Interesting
    So there you are: a computer system for cops in their cars that is better, more flexible, more durable, and a lot less expensive than traditional ones -- all based on a bit of imagination from a couple of sysadmins who are not overwhelmed with reboots and software problems, so they have time to research what the police really need from their in-car data terminals...

    I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.

    Even the Microsoft people couldn't refute the fact that Largo's current setup uses far less hardware and is far easier to administer and physically maintain than an equivalent Windows-based system.

    Yay for Linux!

    I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.

    1. Re:Interesting quotes by Mastos · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.

      I worked as the sysadmin/programmer/everything it for a police department for a few years, including working on a project to put laptops in the police cars. Putting laptops in cars is a great idea, but unchecked, could have cause for concern.

      Allowing officers to lookup their own plates and see information about the possible drivers, including photos if available, is nothing but a great idea. Its simply a matter of putting information they already access at the right time in the right place. Most of the software also allows them to write and access all their police reports from the car. Not only does this allow them to spend less time working on the interminable paperwork, but be in the field doing it making themselves more valuable to the public.

      Now, there also are some major problems with unchecked use of computer systems in the police departments, specifically squad car use. Every incident is logged into huge logbooks, traditionally by the dispatcher. More and more, those logbooks are being moved to computer systems. This allows them to look up any past incidents with a subject much easier.

      On one hand, it would be very useful to know that John Doe has a history of violence to police officers, but on the other hand, they are able to build up huge files on people without allowing the subjects to have a trial to defend themselves. Once departments start sharing their incident databases, it would be possible for an officer to lookup any time any police had contact with you, whether you were actually charged with something or not.

      It will be interesting to see how this one turns out.

    2. Re:Interesting quotes by r_j_prahad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.

      I can tell you exactly what info the cops want. They want whatever they can get their hands on that will enable them to go home alive after their shift and be with their families. Nothing more, nothing less.

      A very intentional side effect of this is that you'll probably stand a better chance of doing the exact same thing.

    3. Re:Interesting quotes by Apathy+costs+bills · · Score: 3, Informative
      I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.

      This conclusion you've drawn is so fundamentally flawed I can't even begin to fathom it. Linux trained administrators are often higher paid than their MCS* counterparts. RedHat training costs more and is more comprehensive than MCS*, and it also lasts longer, because it teaches you system fundamentals instead of a flow-chart driven O/S template for a specific version of windows. The total IT cost for Linux shops is lower because the software licenses are zero cost, not because they underpay the admins!

      But of course, you know this. You have made a career on Slashdot of posting bullshit and insults. You are an abusive user bent on malice, and hopefully once the administrators are alerted, they will delete your account.
      --
      Kill Trolls Dead. Here's
    4. Re:Interesting quotes by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      not all of them... thare are quite a few that abuse their position... flagrently ignore all traffic laws in and out of the patrol car, constantly run background checks from the in-car laptop, no matter who you are..

      THIS is the person we need to protect the citizens from.. by simply LOGGING every access the officer does and what he does... if officer Jones had 5 stops and 14 complaints he responded to on his last shift but called up 200 people's reports. he really needs to be talked to by the department head and reprimanded for abuse. I say give the cops everything, but watch them closely. as the "power" of the badge goes to their heads quite quickly.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  5. Stable, Robust, Free. And that's just the coffee. by Limburgher · · Score: 3, Funny

    Seriously, good to see stuff like this. And in Florida of all places!

    --

    You are not the customer.

  6. What happened to the hundred dollar john? by Kujah · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If i'm reading this right, the IT department of Largo is actually thinking about ways to save the taxpayers money instead of ways to spend it... If the rest of the country operated in such a fashion maybe we could pay our teachers better. Its interesting that they chose a thin linux client model, that seems to be the growing trend with IT departments (and they said linux was dying). Im pleasantly surprised that they managed to resist microsoft's pressure, as im sure they would have had nothing but issues with the CeMeNT model, and I think ill stop now because im rambling ;)

    1. Re:What happened to the hundred dollar john? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The big problem with most goverment organizations I have been associated with is the "use it or lose it" budget strategy. i.e. when X dollars are in the budget you'd better spend it all or next year you'll be cut back.

      So when you come in under budget you darn well better be sure this year's spending is enough to keep you going next year, 'cause you ain't getting any more. This makes it really hard dealing with expenditures on durable goods like computers since you can't buy new PCs every three years or so, you have to keep a steady stream of orders going to equalize your long term budget. :-(

  7. Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings by syntap · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm glad a municipality has caught onto hitting eBay for quality used equipment, as Largo did according to the article. OSS, plus cheaper (and SLIGHTLY) older equipment can add up to huge cost savings. Hell, any .com that dies probably has enough server and networking hardware to outfit any small company. Municipalities need to make it easier for their IT managers to purchase items used (like from eBay) and quit limiting themsleves to purchasing contracts.

    1. Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings by sheldon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is, your solution does not scale.

      If every municipality in the US is out on ebay looking for NCD thin clients... Suddenly the price of NCD thin clients is no longer $5 each... it's $500/each. Or the equipment is simply not available.

      Ohwell, good luck.

    2. Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings by Jason+Earl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So you simply use a different thin client. Personally I would probably opt for something PC based anyhow. The Wal-Mart Linux PCs can be had cheaply enough that you wouldn't feel bad throwing them away, and they would be easy to image with software from the Linux Terminal Server Project. This type of a setup requires a little more work than simply buying X terminals, but the availability of PC hardware is not likely to decrease anytime soon, and you can probably reuse existing PC hardware.

      The beauty of thin clients isn't the fact that you can use cheap hardware (though that certainly helps). The beauty of thin clients stems from the fact that you don't ever have to troubleshoot individual PCs. All software can be managed centrally, and failed terminals can be replaced by a monkey.

    3. Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings by Alien+Being · · Score: 5, Funny

      Damn. If only *nix had been built on some nice open standards, then they could choose from a wide variety of used computers and run free display server and thin client software on them.

      Get a clue.

    4. Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings by sheldon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Risk aspect I discussed was not whether or not it would work, but whether or not you could properly budget for the solution.

      Your cobbled together solution doesn't have a fixed cost associated with it, it will cost a different amount weekly depending on what it is you buy. Also as you introduce new cobbled together equipment to the environment, you've increased your support costs as you now have to manage multiple configurations.

      It introduces some new variables which would have to be studied. I guess the point is, from an IT manager perspective life is a lot simpler if you can choose a solution and stick with it for at least a year. The cost Risk is also a little easier to handle when buying new equipment as you are fairly assured the prices will go down, not up. Better to come in under budget than over.

      I've worked both in private industry and in government, and this cobbled together inelegant solution would probably fly in the government. But with the exception of a few small companies I've dealt with, few in private industry would accept this as a solution.

      Again, it reminds me of the recent article discussing the cobbled together PVR. These were solutions that looked like good ideas when I was new to the industry 15 years ago, but over the years I've learned from experience that they aren't such great ideas.

    5. Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings by Tony-A · · Score: 3, Interesting

      whether or not you could properly budget for the solution.
      Pretty simple. You budget dollars for what reasonably priced new equipment would cost. In actual practice, you can save 80 to 95% of the budgeted amount but cannot reliably count on those savings, so you don't budget the savings. The budget is what you are prepared to spend, only slightly related to what you will spend.

  8. I'm waiting... by jaredcoleman · · Score: 5, Funny


    for Debian Does Dallas!

    1. Re:I'm waiting... by mustangdavis · · Score: 5, Funny
      I'm waiting for ... Debian Does Dallas!


      But I hope that the people of Dallas use some RedHats for protection before doing such a slutty ditribution
      --
      HallmarkOrnaments.Com
  9. Re:If only it weren't in Florida by drummerboy714 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Just don't ask anyone there to vote on whether or not they should be using Linux.

  10. NCD Terms by zmalone · · Score: 4, Informative

    Its worth noting that they are using NCD x-terminals. While buying used NCD equipment works well if you've already invested in their hardware, if you are setting up equipment from scratch, it is not an effective solution. NCD does not provide their drivers for download, and charges a fairly hefty amount of money for them, so if you want to set up x-terms at home, or at a small buisness, buy something else, unless you are already familiar with this.

    Quite a few people seem to have picked these things up after the last article, not realizing how much of a pain it would be to get them running

  11. medium-size city in Texas too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm the network admin for a city govt in Texas and we're looking *really close* at migrating all our NT servers and as many clients as possible to Linux. Our IT dept budget is only one half of one percent of the city's total municipal budget anyway so we're accustomed to having to get by on a shoestring budget. We were never given funding to upgrade (sic) from NT4 to W2K on the server side anyway. The only thing that's kept us from being able to move all our filesharing to Linux+Samba has been the lack of adequate backup software that can work with our big tape jukebox and backup open files and handle all the required scheduling and notification(like Veritas Backup Exec is doing for us)... and lack of an antivirus package that can scan files on the fly as they pass in and out thru Samba (like NAI's Netshield has been doing for us).

    1. Re:medium-size city in Texas too. by q2a · · Score: 5, Informative

      Ok Anonymous, do your homework.

      I'm migrating about 500 clients and 20 NT4 servers to 'mostly' linux and I run Veritas for backup and Sophos antivirus on my servers and clients.

      Can't get more 'adequate' then that friend.
      The revolution has begun ;)
  12. Re:Florida is a terrible place to live. by mark_lybarger · · Score: 3, Funny

    Cheap houses, no state income tax.... meth labs in their trailers, etc. Lots of drug runners ...

    way to go, /. the state of florida.

  13. Failure cases and recovery by mekkab · · Score: 4, Insightful

    forgive me, becuase I'm not too up on the details of thin-client-hood (my assumptions are that its a lot like a mainframe, or that unix system that all the undergrads would use for their mail and programs. 5000 kids at once bringing a Challenge L to its knees...)

    and its nice that they are careful and have a redundant system.

    But I'm interested in their worst case scenario plans (more than just saying "well, our systems are redundant!") and what is the worst disaster they have had to deal with.

    Sure, its cool that they have localized where all the problems are going to be (the servers) but when do they predict the "the network is too slow!" calls will start coming in?

    --
    In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
  14. Most important quote... by dubious9 · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Don't forget, Harold isn't getting paid by anyone except Largo taxpayers, and his job is to keep their IT expenses as low as he can while providing ever-better IT services to the city employees who use them to do their jobs. In light of this, Harold's comparative cost figures are probably at least as trustworthy as anyone's -- and lots more trustworthy than some."

    Its good to finally see a TCO that is about as unbiased as you can get. Other than this I've not yet to see a TCO (either proclaiming Linux or Windows) that isn't slanted in some way to paid for by a OS supplier.

    Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux. All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up. I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows. Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals hugh hardware savings.

    I'd say linux is just icing on the cake, (and probably leads to more silent beepers and a couple less admins). Still, remember that this is a total implementation comparision between municipalities, not purely Windows vs. Linux.

    --
    Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
    1. Re:Most important quote... by nojomofo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up

      Yes, but if they used windows everywhere, would they be able to use dirt-cheap hardware? No, so even that reduction is a result of using a Linux solution.

    2. Re:Most important quote... by tsetem · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux. All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up. I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows. Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals hugh hardware savings.

      I think one important facet is could they run Windows on the same kind of hardware as the equipment they are buying as Linux terminals? Granted, the HW is dirt cheap, but also consider that Windows XP needs to run on a 1Gh+ machine with 128Mb of memory. Suddenly cheap hardware doesn't make sense in a Windows installation.

      The big advantage is that old and underpowered systems can be recycled and still used. So Largo sees a cost savings in both SW licensing, and HW costs. But the costs are intertwined. Buying a Windows license also means buying more expensive HW to run it on.

    3. Re:Most important quote... by T3kno · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would really like to know how you would connect 200 thin clients to a windows terminal server or a citrix solution. The cost of that server alone will eat up your 1.3% budget, not to mention the per user and per processor licensing fees.

      --
      (B) + (D) + (B) + (D) = (K) + (&)
    4. Re:Most important quote... by sheldon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also going back through the article it appears like Roblimo didn't take the time to interview endusers or city managers. Are they happy with the service provided?

      As far as services, again Roblimo doesn't go into much detail, but towards the end of the article he hints at it with this statement:

      "He is upset with other local governments that use Visual Basic or ActiveX to make Intranet and Internet applications with which Largo people must interact"

      The key to a good IT solution is that you are meeting the needs of the endusers. Roblimo doesn't address that, but then that's because he is a Linux zealot who are of the old-school belief that life would be easier without endusers.

    5. Re:Most important quote... by supine · · Score: 3, Informative

      They don't.

      There are 200+ X-Window terminals. Only some users who need to run MS products connect to MS Terminal Servers using the *nix Citrix client.

      marty

      --
      "I can't buy want I want because it's free. Can't be what they want because I'm me." -Corduroy, Pearl Jam
  15. strange slashdot effect by greechneb · · Score: 4, Funny

    All of the sudden the city of Largo notices NCD thin clients jumped up in price on ebay... surely couldn't be slashdotting ebay now? could we?

  16. This is GOOD for Sysadmins! by FreeUser · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.

    One of the real plusses of being UNIX savvy in general, and GNU/Linux/free software/open source savvy in particular, is that one actually often earns a better living than their Microsoftoid equivelents. Why? Because paying one knowledgable person who, in a GNU/Linux, *BSD, or *NIX shop can do the work that requires three or four MSCE's (assuming a modicum of competence on the MSCE's part, an assumption that is, as many here have pointed out repeatedly, is not one that is safe to make), 1.5 - 2 times the salary still translates into a tremendous human resources savings, and brings with it the added benefits of expertise, lower turnover, and attention to detail (and research) pointed out in this article.

    If you are saving money because your staffing requirements are lower (in raw numbers of bodies), your licensing costs are lower, and your TCO costs are lower (all nearly always true with GNU/Linux or FreeBSD vs. Microsoft), you can pay a premium for really good people and have the benefits that brings along with tremendous savings.

    Which is great for everyone, except shoddy admins who probably should find another line of work anyway. It is certainly great for those of us who know what we are doing and take pride in doing quality work for our clients/employers, and like to be rewarded in kind.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    1. Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins! by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you are saving money because your staffing requirements are lower (in raw numbers of bodies), your licensing costs are lower, and your TCO costs are lower (all nearly always true with GNU/Linux or FreeBSD vs. Microsoft), you can pay a premium for really good people and have the benefits that brings along with tremendous savings.

      the largest problem and downfall with this is having a city manager that isnt a nutcase. If they can reduce the employee count from 3 to 1 there is no way in hell they will increase the one person's salary even by 50% (which still saves 150% if you did give a 50% raise) in fact they will fight like hell to keep that position to be the same level and pay it is now. Which will have an interesting effect... when the current poor sod quits for a real paying job (>$25,000.00 a year) they will try and hire someone for the same amount. not being able to get one they will instantly blame the entire project a failure and the cause of their woes instead of blaming the City Manager for being an idiot who refuses to pay people what they are worth. (if you pay anyone well pay your IT well as they are your backbone and can crush your entire corp/office like a bug)

      i've seen this way too many times in small/ medium cities... when someone get's a raise everyone else getting less than that person whines like fricking children... espically if a manager is making less than a non-manager position... doesn't matter if there is skill required..

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins! by Eric+Damron · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Using the average wisdom of Slashdot is a perilous exercise. The average Slashdotter knows astoundingly little about Windows development, the Windows platform, or Windows administration, although they never fail to proclaim their mastery of the same."

      I work in an all Windows IT environment so your statement does not apply to me.

      "Firstly, countless studies have shown that in the TCO game it is a wash"

      Actually that's not correct. Linux servers are really no harder to maintain than Microsoft servers in fact due to their stability they are less troublesome. So, even if the cost of administrating them is a wash we still have licensing issues. Microsoft charges a HUGE amount for that. So TCO of a Linux network is about half of the TCO of a Windows network.

      For a shop that is switching to Linux there is an initial learning curve that would drive the cost of training up but this would also be true of a Linux shop that was going to switch to Windows.

      As far as your proclamation that NT 4.0 servers are stable enough never to need a reboot I say BULLSHIT! Under the advice of Microsoft we reboot at least once a month.

      --
      The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
    3. Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins! by Eric+Damron · · Score: 3, Informative

      "do you mind pointing out that whitepaper?"

      This was from a support call. $250 per pop btw.

      Your "experience" certainly does NOT trump my twenty years of experience. The fact that you appear to be clueless as to the costs of Microsoft licensees proves that.

      We purchase unlimited client licenses for our SQL server. It costs us $10,000.00 PER PROCESSOR!! So for a four-processor server we're looking at 40 grand. And that's just for the SQL server!

      I suggest that you finish college before trying to pass yourself off as an administrator.

      --
      The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
  17. Re:Woohoo! by Smelly+Jeffrey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    then again my dad is the head tech for a county court system in California and he only buys contract boxes with Windows

    Does anyone else see the problem here?

    How can courts ruling in various Microsoft issues ever consider themselves impartial when their computers, by contract, run Windows?

  18. Groupware possibilities... by otis+wildflower · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'd recommend Cyrus IMAP with Postfix SMTP, run both in SSL (with SMTP AUTH) and point it all to an OpenLDAP backend. Put phpgroupware in for web-based access. In fact, everything you do should be using LDAP, preferably LDAP over SSL, since once you go LDAP you start seeing neat possibilities open up when it comes to offering single username & password everywhere..

    If compatibility with Outlook is not an issue, this is the easiest and thriftiest way to get groupware functionality.

    1. Re:Groupware possibilities... by alistair · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I fully agree with this. I run an LDAP infrastructure as you describe for a large multi national ( > 100,000 staff ) and after 3 years in production we now have over 100 applications taking and feeding employee and contractor data to it. The nice thing is that an incresing number of applications are now LDAP aware, from IMAP and POP mail server to around 9 different LDAP authentication modules for Apache, but increasingly products such as Notes and Network devices can use LDAP authentication, as can OSs such as Solaris.

      Once you have a web authentication sorted out, it is then relativly simple to have a corporate directory on the web which allows users to keep their own details up to date, and once this is part of the company culture, you would be suprised as to the quality of this self service data. I have found that this then starts a "virtuous circle" of improving data quality, the more applications trust this data and feed from it, the more users are then reminded to keep the data up to date, the better the data quality becomes and hence the more applications use the data...

      If you make your feed system email, then you even have an instant self service password system, since to update their details users can have a temporary password emailed to them, and you will always have their email address.

      The return on investment can be fantastic, our most recent project was to replace the data maintained for 50,000 helpdesk users with the (mostly self service) data from the LDAP directory, and this is only one of many similar projects; so give it a go, you may be pleasenly suprised.

  19. This is a Troll. Here is the proof. by molo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In case anyone was doubtful over whether this post should get a -1 troll or not, i did a google search for:


    "Here are a few example comments from a focus group session from Q3 1999 in response to a question about their attitudes to Linux and open source software"

    A complete phrase like this should be unique if this article were original. It is not. There is an archive of the troll here, which was originally posted to slashdot on 6/25/2000:


    http://www.spiralx.co.uk/texts/troll2.html

    --
    Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
  20. Why can't schools' do this? by MikeLRoy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    After having worked for a highschool IT dept for 3 years, and having dealt with a univsersity IT dept for 2 years, i have to ask: why can't schools do this?

    My highschool regularly got grants for buying hardware, and would then proceed to spend $2000 per windows workstation, not including software (they didn't license until they got yelled at by M$). But, they wouldn't hire more then 1 IT guy for 250 workstations, so nothing ever worked.

    Same at my university. Aside from all the departmental and faculty machines (~4500), there are about 1500 open-area machines for students. These are a mix of unix thin-clients running solaris, and wintel machines, most of which are outdated. They insist upon buying new NCD/Sun thin-clients, running solaris, or buying new Wintel machines running win2k. Yet these machines cost them $1500-$2000 a piece! And all the old unix clinets (~800) running solaris are super slow (5+ minutes to log in!). Explain to me why a city, with offices here,there, and everywhere, manages to run a linux-based thin-client network, while a university with a huge IT budget runs one that's too slow to use!

    Considering the non-existant cost of "outdated" hardware in the marketplace, people would figure out that to run an office suite, web browser, and email, all you need is a P150!!!

    --
    -Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
  21. Power saving alone... by Steveftoth · · Score: 4, Interesting

    make the choice to switch to thin clients attractive.

    The model of thin client they are using only uses 19-25 watts of power. Compared to a standard PC which uses at least 150 watts, that is a huge power savings. True, the monitor uses about half the power, but that can be miminized if you also switch to a lcd.

  22. MS Systems have to be upgraded anyway by mikosullivan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You've got an insightful point, but I still must disagree. Keep in mind that Microsoft builds planned obselescence into their systems, so most MS shops need to upgrade anyway. I work for the Rescue Mission of Roanoke, and as you can imagine we're not a rich organization. We desperately need to upgrade our old systems, and Linux is simply the cheaper and more cost-effective way to do it.

    --
    Miko O'Sullivan
  23. the real revolution.. by spasm · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article mentioned this almost as an aside, but as someone who works in government, the ability of these guys to purchase secondhand from ebay is truly revolutionary.

    Hell, I can't even buy reconditioned palms with manufacturer warranty direct from palm - not only is palm not an "approved vendor" for purchasing palms from (go figure..), but our purchasing policies explicitly ban reconditioned or secondhand items. As for *ebay*..

    Well done to Largo for giving these guys the ability to use a little flexibility and common sense.

  24. Re:Knowledgable IT's by dohcvtec · · Score: 3, Insightful

    one would need some pretty intellegent/knowledgable/creative IT's
    I'm not sysadmin, so I can only speculate here, but doesn't that go with the territory? In other words, it sounds like you're saying, "Whoa, in order to implement something like this, we would actually need sysadmins that can do their jobs." Sorry, but I would think that being intelligent/knowledgable/creative would be almost part of the job description of any halfway-decent sysadmin.

    --
    -- Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat.
  25. Whats the big hoopla? by malakai · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Seriously, this is a thin client environment. This is no different than most corporations pre 1994. Granted, the terminals are not black with green lettering, and no doubt less "iron" behind the scenes powering them, but the thin client desktop solution is well known, well documented. Of course their help-desk and sys admins will have orders of magnitude less calls then a similiar environment with full desktop OS in place running on-computer applications.

    I think it's wonderful Largo is able to work with this model. Many corporations still use it in specific instances. I don't see it as revolutionary.

    I would be worried somewhat if I was a Largo police officer and I had a thin client in my car that used a wirless service. This is pushing it. Maybe if I had redundant wirless coverage on multiple frequencies I'd feel less vulnerable. But to me, the police car is exactly the type of environment where you want an intelligent heavier client. One that can cache the last couple of inbound messages, cache the last lookup you did on a license plate, maybe also proactively download other information based on the information you searched for, so that in the event of an outage, you aren't s.o.l.

    I found this quote unusual too:
    "Mostly it was an issue of scalability," Dave says. This, not money, is what they told the Microsoft people their biggest barrier was. At any given moment, Largo's network may have over 200 people actively logged in and working, often more, and they are all running from a single main server, plus several servers that run specific applications. Even the Microsoft people couldn't refute the fact that Largo's current setup uses far less hardware and is far easier to administer and physically maintain than an equivalent Windows-based system.


    This doesn't seem accurate in the least bit. I'm not sure why they simply don't say "look, it was about money". Because that I could believe.
    Their network is run off two boxes, each dual-processor. One a ML370 and another a ML350. One's a dual 933 the other a dual 1ghz.

    Now, using these boxes and assuming a gig of RAM at least (not specified in article), Terminal services or Citrix could have easily services 150-250 users on _each_ box. Granted, it depends on what they are doing (so called, light, medium, or heavy users).

    I'm not saying Terminal Services, or Citrix would have been better. I'm glad their operations run as smoothly as they do. I just wish people would be honest and simply say "yeah, of course it was about the licensing fees". The reason they probably are not saying this, is I bet MS offered them free licenses to get them to switch, and they don't want their City Council hearing they could have had it all for free, but opted not to in a "fuck u" gesture to MS....

    -malakai
    --
    -Malakai
    A Dragon Lives in my Garage
    1. Re:Whats the big hoopla? by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I suspect they aren't using 802.11b or cellular for their wireless connection. Probably they're using a radio datalink on a dedicated channel in a band reserved for their use. Those tend to be much less susceptible to link-lossage.

      As for as Terminal Services or Citrix, I've used both. Their performance does not measure up to X11 in a remote application, because X11 was designed for network connections while TS and Citrix were both grafted onto a system that assumed it was dealing with a physical screen. You can do a lot hooking into GDI, but in the end the system wasn't designed to support the application. Server performance isn't the bottleneck, it's the relatively low-bandwidth connection between the server and the client.

      As for free license fees, sure they're free now. Is MS going to guarantee that all upgrades to all future versions will also be free? I doubt it, and there's the hook inside that tasty free-license bait. With Linux, the city's guaranteed that in 10 years their system will still be available without paying license fees or worrying about license bookkeeping to keep the BSA off their backs.

  26. Re:Digitized Cops by Skjellifetti · · Score: 3

    Sure, maybe Officer Bustem is getting a little out of hand with looking up data on his patrol car tablet. But I can always discuss the issue with my city council member, or even run for city council myself if I don't like the answers. Or I could reasonably move out of Smallville if the laws are ultimately not to my liking. But I have zero chance of influencing the Atty. General of the United States, and it would be very difficult to pick up and move out of the US of A.

    The AttyGen may be more of a friend than you realize. Any idea of how many times the AttyGen has taken a local police force into court for civil rights violations where the local politicians turn a blind eye to problems? Here in Ohio, both Cincinnati and Columbus have had recent run-ins with the DOJ over police abuses. The New Jersey State Police, Buffalo, LA, Pittsburg, and DC police are all currently being monitored by the DOJ.

    --
    FreeSpeech.org
  27. Re:If only it weren't in Florida by Eccles · · Score: 3, Funny

    hey! florida rulz! its 75 degrees outside in december, anyone else have it better?

    Well yeah, but do you really want to live in God's Waiting Room?

    --
    Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
  28. Re:If only it weren't in Florida by geekoid · · Score: 3

    "Tampa is the biggest sewer, it is filled with drug dealers, prostitutes. I wouldn't LIVE in tampa for all the money in the world!"

    But its a great place to visit if you got an extra hundred bucks...

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect