Largo Loving Linux

A little over a year ago, dot.kde.org and Newsforge did stories on the Linux-based systems being used in Largo, FL to run the city government. Roblimo went down there, drank their coffee, and wrote a follow-up piece which might be, but wasn't, entitled "How to be a sysadmin whose pager doesn't go off". (Newsforge is part of OSDN.)

Comments

If only it weren't in Florida

[Strike]

I might consider moving there someday :)

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[kraksmoka]

hey! florida rulz! its 75 degrees outside in december, anyone else have it better? i don't think so.

now if we could just get the elections straight.

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[drummerboy714]

Just don't ask anyone there to vote on whether or not they should be using Linux.

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[0x0d0a]

And it's got crazy heat and humidity and mosquitos for the rest of the summer.

Besides, I lived where it didn't snow in winter for years -- no fun. Snow is great.

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[AlgUSF]

You don't want to live in Largo, trust me I live in St. Petersburg. Everyone in Pinellas County, FL calles Largo "Larghetto".

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[Sokie]

(Never let the opportunity to use a good Stewie quote (with a little editing) slip you by, that's my mantra...)

Oh gosh that's funny. That's really funny. Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. "People in Florida can't vote..." I've never heard anyone make that joke before. Mmm. You're the first. I've never heard anyone reference, um reference that outside the news before. Because that's the problem they had in the last presidential electrion, right? And yet you've taken that, and used it out of context, to insult them in this everyday situation. Gosh, what a clever, smart girl you must be, to come up with a joke like that by your self. Mmm. That's so fresh, too. Any Titanic jokes you want to throw at me while we're hitting these phenomena at the height of their popularity? Because I'm right here. God you're so funny!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[AlgUSF]

I work in Tampa. St. Pete for the most part is clean and safe. Tampa is the biggest sewer, it is filled with drug dealers, prostitutes. I wouldn't LIVE in tampa for all the money in the world!

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[Fig, formerly A.C.]

[i]it is filled with drug dealers, prostitutes. I wouldn't LIVE in tampa[/i][p]You must commute then, correct? ;-)

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[Fig, formerly A.C.]

D'oH!!! B0rked my tags, sorry.

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[AlgUSF]

Yes, I commute 45 minutes each way on I-275, but it is worth it to live 1 mile from the beach....

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[Alizarin Erythrosin]

Hey Largo is my hometown! It's actually not as bad as Orlando (where I live now) because you got the Gulf and Tampa Bay to keep temperatures a little lower but it's still humid as hell. Florida isn't bad if you've lived there long enough to get used to the weather... and all the old people driving around driving you crazy.

I was at work when I read this article and I shouted out "Woo!" when I read the "Largo, FL" part. My hometown is in the news! And in a good way!

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[Eccles]

hey! florida rulz! its 75 degrees outside in december, anyone else have it better?

Well yeah, but do you really want to live in God's Waiting Room?

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[styrotech]

its 75 degrees outside in december, anyone else have it better? i don't think so

Australia?

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[geekoid]

"Tampa is the biggest sewer, it is filled with drug dealers, prostitutes. I wouldn't LIVE in tampa for all the money in the world!"

But its a great place to visit if you got an extra hundred bucks...

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[houseofmore]

Oh ya... everyone I know over the age of 80 loves it there.

Re:If only it weren't in Florida

[houseofmore]

it is filled with drug dealers, prostitutes. Nothing like getting a hit of crack off Grampa Willie, then strolling down for a bit of action with Aunt Betty.

The sysadmins sound so... disturbing.

[immanis]

Everything backed up... neat stacks of CAT5... no emergencies... no rushing...

Are we quite sure these guys are HUMAN sysadmins, not evil intergalactic sysadmins from Myronacia here to lure us all into their evil plot of low-stress jobs and a life of being eaten?

Re:The sysadmins sound so... disturbing.

[dildatron]

They shouldn't have given themselves away. It is clear from the description that these aren't real sysadmins at all.

I bet they don't even drink caffeinated coffee or have Big Ol' Programmers' Beards!

Re:The sysadmins sound so... disturbing.

[sisukapalli1]

This reminds me of an old joke about the USSR:

A worker complains about how he is having trouble at his factory: if he goes five minutes late, the managers think he is irresponsible; if he goes five minutes early, the managers think he is there to plan some coup.

His friend suggests him to go on time, to which the worker says, "Then, they will are grill me about where I smuggled such an accurate watch from".

Likewise, I am sure the MS reps (and Dubya's brother in FL) would complain that since it doesn't crash often, it must not be doing something big!

Ofcourse, if it is doing something big and doesn't crash, then it should be some plot by the "terrorists".

S

Re:The sysadmins sound so... disturbing.

[gilesjuk]

Peel back their skin, they might be penguins underneath :)

Re:The sysadmins sound so... disturbing.

[cookd]

Personally, I'm just about fed up with both parties, and I do my best to try to pick the lesser of evils when voting. Lately, that has been republican. Your opinion may differ, and for good reason.

My personal feelings on the issue are to go with the person who is the most honest. But I haven't seen an honest presidential candidate since, um, well, probably before I was born.

Re:The sysadmins sound so... disturbing.

[Natalie's Hot Grits]

"Republicans are about saving money in government while providing necessary services."

Republican's dream for a "smaller government" has you so blinded you can't see your hand in front of you. When a Republican says big government, they mean social programs that help the poor and tax everybody (yea, the richer get taxed more by design).

When a Republican says small government, they mean more jails for small time fealonies and misdameanors, increased spending on the war against the American people(read: DEA et al), and less money to help the little guy (no college scholarships, no healthcare for elderly and poor children, etc.), all while raising taxes for the middle class to pay for the war against themselves, and more complicated tax law to allow for tax breaks for the wealthy (all while increasing the cost overhead of taxation).

Thats right folks, Republican's dream for a smaller government means more taxes for the poor and less for the rich. Increase government employment, spending, and beaurocracy to benefit large corporations and wealthy white christians. All while decreasing vital social programs that help the poorest people survive their daily lives. When a Republican talks about smaller government, he speaks about less restrictions on monopolies and guns(thats where they come up with "smaller"), and more restrictions on the little guy (such as outlawing harmless plants and mushrooms, or making it illegal to watch a DVD on Linux, and then spending billions of dollars a year on enforcement and jailtime).

If you disagree with this, that's fine. But rest assured that this is exactly what happens when Republicans get into office and try to make smaller government.

Don't lie to yourself, if you want smaller government, why don't you think about cutting costs where it hurts the budget the most and which causes the least negative impact on society. Do you honestly believe that the war on drugs has benefited society? Do you honestly believe that less restriction on coporations at the expense of society is good? Do you honestly believe that complicating the laws restricting personal freedoms (ex: DMCA) to keep failed businesses around another few years to line Republican's pockets is beneficial to society, or even "smaller" government???

Get real, buddy.

Who cares what Great Teacher Largo thinks?

[tmhsiao]

What does Hayasaka think of it.

Re:Who cares what Great Teacher Largo thinks?

[Pxtl]

So I'm not the only one who thought of Megatokyo when I read that headline? A Largo - we miss you.

Re:Who cares what Great Teacher Largo thinks?

[Weedhopper]

Hey, whatever happened to Largo? Where is he?

Re:Who cares what Great Teacher Largo thinks?

[b1t r0t]

Hey, whatever happened to Largo? Where is he?

He's in Dallas, I think.

Re:Who cares what Great Teacher Largo thinks?

[Sergeant Beavis]

He used to work with me at Caprock before McLeod USA bought us out and ran the whole thing into the ground. I still credit him exclusively for turning me onto Linux and Megatokyo. I think he's working for some publication.

Re:Who cares what Great Teacher Largo thinks?

[Rodney L Caston]

I'm ... still around

-largo

Local and state governments

[crumbz]

Considering that 40 out of the 50 U.S. states are experience severe budget shortfalls, a good way to get more bang for the buck is to consider switching to open sourced software. You have:

1) Front-end savings on licensing.(perhaps offset by re-training costs)
2) Savings on future licensing
3) Less tech support headaches and consequently less staffing requirements.

As the article illustrates, spending 1.3% off a municipal budget vs. 3% (or 4%) is a substantial savings. Bring that up to the state level and you are talking tens to hundreds of millions.

I won't even start talking about the Feds...

Re:Local and state governments

[mark_lybarger]

it's also a way to spend money they don't have. migrating systems like this costs money.

my wife always tries that one one me when she goes shopping. "it was on sale, so i was actually saving us money". then i look at the checkbook balances and wonder how all those savings are actually debits to the accounts...

the states should have considered open source systems highly 2-3 years ago when they were over inflating their own budgets and spending along with the economies (some were still putting a few dimes away for their rainy day fund which has all been used up by now). open source benefits begin with the initial systems planing and development phase. it would be really hard to justify spending money on migrating systems for future preceived savings.

Re:Local and state governments

[Illuminati Member]

1) Front-end savings on licensing.(perhaps offset by re-training costs)

No licensing gives you savings, but, not only do you have to retrain your employees on how to use their new computer altogether, but you have to TRAIN (not RE-train) them on a whole new stack of software.

2) Savings on future licensing

No new licensing required, unless, of course, you want support. If you need redhat (et al) support, it'll cost you.

3) Less tech support headaches and consequently less staffing requirements.

First of all, if you don't allow your employees to d/l and install garbage software from the net, and don't give them access to tweak and mess with drivers, you usually don't have trouble with 'tech support headaches'. Unless you are referring to the people that don't know how to hit the 'print' button to print. If that's the case, multiply your headache by 15, and you'll have an idea of what you are in for.
Second, *nix admins cost more the Windows admins, so get ready to dish out money.

Now, what about the point of time. How much time does it take to switch it all over, retrain your employees, etc? Now translate that time to money.

Sorry, just a little tired of hearing the 'money' excuse is the reason to switch a couple hundred machines into a brand new OS (and don't give me crap about upgrading windows, cause it can be done over the evening, and its not a significant amount of change that requires people a whole set of training and time to get used to).

For the record, I use Linux, I just think you're being a bit naive.

Re:Local and state governments

[Azghoul]

So we should do anything at all? Spending on IT will happen every year, why not take some and start rolling towards OSS stuff? Makes sense to me.

Though I love your comment about your wife and shopping: Funny because it's so very true. :)

Re:Local and state governments

[Azghoul]

Yo, read the article. Please. They are /proving/ that there are real savings to be had.

I think the original poster didn't say "No licensing", did he? He said "Savings on future licensing". Even with support costs, it'll be cheaper. You don't pay support costs for MS?

But again, read the article: There is real-world proof.

Re:Local and state governments

[AUsBandit]

Any government of the people, for the people, by the people not using an OS of the people, for the people, by the people should be ashamed of itself.

Re:Local and state governments

[bwalling]

First of all, if you don't allow your employees to d/l and install garbage software from the net, and don't give them access to tweak and mess with drivers, you usually don't have trouble with 'tech support headaches'.

Unless your fearless leader insisted you use a terrible ERP system like MAS/500 that actually requires all users to have local administrator priveleges! So, my users can screw up their systems all day. I tried to have this little "feature" registered as a bug, but they didn't think it to be a problem.

Re:Local and state governments

[tsetem]

the states should have considered open source systems highly 2-3 years ago when they were over inflating their own budgets and spending along with the economies (some were still putting a few dimes away for their rainy day fund which has all been used up by now). open source benefits begin with the initial systems planing and development phase. it would be really hard to justify spending money on migrating systems for future preceived savings.

Don't forget though, every IT department is not in between their upgrade cycles. Some may be (and really should be) planning IT improvements once the economy improves, and tax revenues are flowing again.

Just because you don't have money today, doesn't mean you shouldn't make plans for when you do have money again.

Re:Local and state governments

[killthiskid]

Yo, read the article. Please. They are /proving/ that there are real savings to be had.

Yo!, yourself, there home-slice.

Re:Local and state governments

[Dalcius]

1) Spend more money this year than usual
2) Save money for the next N years.

How you can possibly rationalize this as "hard to justify", I don't understand. All entities must look for ways to spend money, and most changes of this type will take investment. Your 'on sale' analogy isn't perfect since buying these things only provides you a one-time savings (not to mention the question of whether the items were needed or not), whereas switching to OSS saves more money the longer you use it.

Re:Local and state governments

[Red_Winestain]

Any government of the people, for the people, by the people not using an OS of the people, for the people, by the people should be ashamed of itself.

Yes, but any government of the corporations, for the corporations, by the corporations not using an OS of the corporations, for the corporations, by the corporations should similarly be ashamed of itself.

Re:Local and state governments

[m1a1]

it would be really hard to justify spending money on migrating systems for future preceived savings.

That is why migration should not be sudden, but rather a process. Slowly integrate OSS machines into the network (chances are the webservers are already running linux or a bsd) and then eventually kill off commercial machines you don't want anymore. That kind of migration is, in my opinion, the best. Sudden change scares people. But a slow, methodical shift keeps everyone happy.

Re:Local and state governments

[Dalcius]

"not only do you have to retrain your employees on how to use their new computer altogether, but you have to TRAIN (not RE-train) them on a whole new stack of software."

Assuming that:
train = teach new concept
retrain = relearn old concept,

What concepts are so different in Linux that normal users must be trained? It's the same point and click interface.

---
"
No new licensing required, unless, of course, you want support. If you need redhat (et al) support, it'll cost you."

True, but I think you'll find that a Red Hat license costs are cheaper than what is required to run the same shop Microsoft. AFAIK, support costs follow the same trend.

---
" First of all, if you don't allow your employees to d/l and install garbage software from the net, and don't give them access to tweak and mess with drivers, you usually don't have trouble with 'tech support headaches'.

One word: viruses.
Keep the systems patched you say? What about those pesky patches that it takes MS a month to release? AFAIK, viruses have exploited this delay before.

Another word: crackers.
Keep the systems updated you say? Read above. Windows Help Desk, IE, etc. etc.

Another thing to mention, admining individual windwos boxes is generally a bit more difficult because of the lack of automated config/update tools that deal with multiple systems.

---
"Second, *nix admins cost more the Windows admins, so get ready to dish out money."

This is an honest question: have you worked with cheap Windows admins before? Most that I know are the types that don't understand good security and leave their systems open to not only crackers and viruses, but user mistakes as well.

And when something breaks, I think in most cases you'll find that *NIX admins can fix things faster and better than cheap Windows admins.

1) *NIX has been a server environment for 30 years. It's standardized and well known.

2) *NIX admins tend to have a higher knowledge of how things work, as opposed to admins who only know how to point and click and are only knowledgable about what a dialog tells them.

---
"For the record, I use Linux, I just think you're being a bit naive."

What version of what distro are you using? Seems that you haven't seen the latest and greatest in user-friendly Linux. I'll admit that Grandma isnt' going to figure out how to build Xine, but once an ISO is configured and copied to all the boxen in the haus, it's cake.

Re:Local and state governments

[Azghoul]

YO YO YO boyyyyyyyyyyyyy

What can I say, I'm so urban it hurts.

If "yo" hurts you so bad, just pretend I wrote "Hey", or "Hey bucko", or "Hello?", or some other such phrase.

Re:Local and state governments

[mark_lybarger]

i really, really do think that local, state, federal governemtns should be all using open source software and not spending outrageous monies on microsoft or other proprietary software systems. it makes sense to the consumer (taxpayer).

what i don't agree to is the timing. the can't (and shouldn't) spend money they don't have. though some get away with borrowing from the Social Security to pay their pet projects it's not responsible. the states, like a LOT of other business are moving from a time of tons of projects to a time of maintenance. just enough to keep the core running.

Your 'on sale' analogy isn't perfect since buying these things only provides you a one-time savings (not to mention the question of whether the items were needed or not)

i've often questioned that myself. and let me tell you, the items are needed, and there's always much more than a one-time savings.

if (spouseShoppingActivities.equals(logicalThoughtPro cess) {
YouWin();
} else {
kickBack.grabColdBeer();
}

Re:Local and state governments

[Col. Panic]

Future perceived savings? FUD. When product support for older Microsoft platforms is discontinued and the .NET subscription-based platform is the only option Microsoft offers, subscribers will see a recurring cost for their servers. Linux will cost something for migration, but once it's up the cost savings should make it extremely cost-effective.

Re:Local and state governments

[killthiskid]

It wasn't painful, actually I thought it was hilarioius. Yo! Yo! I always think of my friend, bouncing around, very much not sober, yelling yo and laughing becuase he was also fluent in spanish, so to him he was say I I I!

Too much context for it to be funny to anyone else, I suppose.

Re:Local and state governments

[arkane1234]

and let's thank our lucky stars that the American government still has to at least have a facade to the public of being "for the people, of the people, by the people" and so forth and so on.

True? :)
Okay.. presidential and Attorney General's activities aside, that is...

Re:Local and state governments

[mark_lybarger]

FUD? i don't see how future savings can be real until they are realized... until then it's just numbers in a project plan. but, at any rate.

i guess i'm a little desktop/small shop centric. Microsoft products aren't the only products the govt's are using. most state systems are on mainframe systems (and are now being integrated into cheap websites). they've also probably got a few licenses for oracle laying around (California has a few cheep ones anyway) or db2, or some other data horse. the microsoft desktop licenses may add up, but the huge costs for the oracle/db2/ibm, etc add up to a large chunk too.

as a state IT manager (read: pencil sharpener), when will my oracle migration project be profitable? i'm to spend $100,000 to chuck a $50,000 software license for software that works for us. it'll cost 10Mill to get off that old mainframe, when will the project be profitable?

note, i'm not a state it manager, and the nubmers are made up. the point is a large migration project costs a lot of money to implement. someone's got to prove there's going to be a big payback and when. you just don't upgrade systems for the sake of a technology migration. there has to be solid numbers to back it up. it has to make sense to do.

Re:Local and state governments

[Anonymous Coward]

Mark's Wife:

"Honey, I just found us a wonderful new house. The neighbourhood is a bit of a step down, but it's quickly moving upscale and best of all, it's rent free for life! We can finally be free of the outrageous yearly payment increases and dictatorial usage restrictions of this place!"

Mark:

"Are you kidding, have you checked the moving costs? It's like six month's rent!"

Re:Local and state governments

[Eccles]

First of all, if you don't allow your employees to d/l and install garbage software from the net, and don't give them access to tweak and mess with drivers, you usually don't have trouble with 'tech support headaches'.

A problem I keep running into, however, is that a lot of Windows apps are written expecting the user to have administrator priviledges. So it can be hard to limit people in this way without creating giant headaches for yourself.

Also, don't forget the time and hassle simply making sure you have the licenses to survive a BSA audit.

Re:Local and state governments

[Dalcius]

I stand corrected. Agreed on all points. I'm still curious about how everything you buy on sale reduces your overall expenses; even women have needless expenses.

Ok, I'm leaving... hey, quit pushing...

Re:Local and state governments

[nutbar]

Funny? It's *true*.

Western governments haven't been for the people for a loooong time now.

Re:Local and state governments

[bmasel]

I just forwarded rob's article (with a couple introductory remarks, ie how much are we sending to Redmond each year) to every member of the Madison City Council, the Dane County Board, the Wisconsin Assembly and Senate, and our Governor-elect. Total time 11 minutes.

Re:Local and state governments

[mpe]

Yes, but any government of the corporations, for the corporations, by the corporations not using an OS of the corporations, for the corporations, by the corporations should similarly be ashamed of itself.

Except that Microsoft are only one corporation. Who have proven themselves able to bully other corporations.

Re:Local and state governments

[mpe]

First of all, if you don't allow your employees to d/l and install garbage software from the net, and don't give them access to tweak and mess with drivers, you usually don't have trouble with 'tech support headaches'.

Assuming you don't run anything which requires special privileges to use. Since many Windows programmers simply don't understand the concept of user privileges and do all their work logged in as "administrator" this is a common problem.
There can also be issues where software has some kind of online update procedure, which includes Windows update.

Interesting quotes

[PhysicsGenius]

So there you are: a computer system for cops in their cars that is better, more flexible, more durable, and a lot less expensive than traditional ones -- all based on a bit of imagination from a couple of sysadmins who are not overwhelmed with reboots and software problems, so they have time to research what the police really need from their in-car data terminals...

I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.

Even the Microsoft people couldn't refute the fact that Largo's current setup uses far less hardware and is far easier to administer and physically maintain than an equivalent Windows-based system.

Yay for Linux!

I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.

Re:Interesting quotes

[Mastos]

I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.

I worked as the sysadmin/programmer/everything it for a police department for a few years, including working on a project to put laptops in the police cars. Putting laptops in cars is a great idea, but unchecked, could have cause for concern.

Allowing officers to lookup their own plates and see information about the possible drivers, including photos if available, is nothing but a great idea. Its simply a matter of putting information they already access at the right time in the right place. Most of the software also allows them to write and access all their police reports from the car. Not only does this allow them to spend less time working on the interminable paperwork, but be in the field doing it making themselves more valuable to the public.

Now, there also are some major problems with unchecked use of computer systems in the police departments, specifically squad car use. Every incident is logged into huge logbooks, traditionally by the dispatcher. More and more, those logbooks are being moved to computer systems. This allows them to look up any past incidents with a subject much easier.

On one hand, it would be very useful to know that John Doe has a history of violence to police officers, but on the other hand, they are able to build up huge files on people without allowing the subjects to have a trial to defend themselves. Once departments start sharing their incident databases, it would be possible for an officer to lookup any time any police had contact with you, whether you were actually charged with something or not.

It will be interesting to see how this one turns out.

Re:Interesting quotes

[pete-classic]

So there you are: a computer system for cops in their cars that is better, more flexible, more durable, and a lot less expensive than traditional ones -- all based on a bit of imagination from a couple of sysadmins who are not overwhelmed with reboots and software problems, so they have time to research what the police really need from their in-car data terminals...

I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.

I haven't heard anyone arguing that they shouldn't have access to their own data. Oustanding warrants, arrest records, statements and reports, etc.

Now, if they were using it to associate people with their library (!) or health records, that would be a different situation. GAFW. (Get A F-ing Warrant)

-Peter

Re:Interesting quotes

[r_j_prahad]

I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.

I can tell you exactly what info the cops want. They want whatever they can get their hands on that will enable them to go home alive after their shift and be with their families. Nothing more, nothing less.

A very intentional side effect of this is that you'll probably stand a better chance of doing the exact same thing.

Re:Interesting quotes

[CrazyDuke]

Its not those kinda cops we're worried about. Its the sadist assholes that like to occasionally ream people to get a kick out of it. Then there are occasionally the ones that do it to gain even more power. People doing their job? Cool. People on a power trip, fuck'em, regardless of the title of their position of power.

Re:Interesting quotes

[duggy_92127]

I can tell you exactly what info the cops want. They want whatever they can get their hands on that will enable them to go home alive after their shift and be with their families.

I can just hear all the people reading this and sniggering. After all, we all know that all cops are assholes and power-mongers, don't we?

All you people who are thinking that, I suggest to take a moment and get to know your local law enforcement. Go on a few ride-alongs with different officers, even check out the local Border Patrol if there is such a thing near you. I worked with the police when I was in college, and the parent post is exactly dead on.

The vast majority of officers are just people like you and me, trynig to enforce the law to keep everybody safe and, at the same time, keep themselves safe. You'll be astounded at what lengths these people go to to try and ensure the safety of everybody, including criminals.

Ever wonder why low-speed pursuits can last for hours? It's because they don't want to blow out the tires and risk harming the passengers or bystanders. Ever wonder why officers will risk their own lives to put an end to a high-speed pursuit? It's because they don't want the car they're chasing, or their own, to crash into an innocent bystander.

The vast majority of law enforcement professionals are good, decent, upstanding citizens who care deeply about our laws, our society, and the people who live in it. In most cases, they actually do deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Doug

Re:Interesting quotes

[Apathy costs bills]

I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.

This conclusion you've drawn is so fundamentally flawed I can't even begin to fathom it. Linux trained administrators are often higher paid than their MCS* counterparts. RedHat training costs more and is more comprehensive than MCS*, and it also lasts longer, because it teaches you system fundamentals instead of a flow-chart driven O/S template for a specific version of windows. The total IT cost for Linux shops is lower because the software licenses are zero cost, not because they underpay the admins!

But of course, you know this. You have made a career on Slashdot of posting bullshit and insults. You are an abusive user bent on malice, and hopefully once the administrators are alerted, they will delete your account.

Re:Interesting quotes

[Lumpy]

not all of them... thare are quite a few that abuse their position... flagrently ignore all traffic laws in and out of the patrol car, constantly run background checks from the in-car laptop, no matter who you are..

THIS is the person we need to protect the citizens from.. by simply LOGGING every access the officer does and what he does... if officer Jones had 5 stops and 14 complaints he responded to on his last shift but called up 200 people's reports. he really needs to be talked to by the department head and reprimanded for abuse. I say give the cops everything, but watch them closely. as the "power" of the badge goes to their heads quite quickly.

Re:Interesting quotes

[mindstrm]

And recording when their organisation had contact with you is wrong?

I mean, my mother tells me when my old friend Joe is in the neighborhood.. is my family violating Joe's constitional right to privacy by sharing this information? Or even by remembering when she saw Joe?

Re:Interesting quotes

[Chris Burke]

The vast majority of law enforcement professionals are good, decent, upstanding citizens who care deeply about our laws, our society, and the people who live in it. In most cases, they actually do deserve the benefit of the doubt.

You know what? You're absolutely right. Most cops I've met have been good people who take the responisibility that comes with their power very seriously.

You know what else? It doesn't fucking matter.

It takes precisely one run-in with a bad cop on a power trip to seriously ruin your day. From pulling someone over for Driving While Black to performing unwarranted strip searches, I've seen enough abuse of police power to understand that "vast majority" isn't nearly good enough. It's not even close as in hand grenades.

I respect police officers -- the good ones -- but you simply can't hand out such power without the strictest of oversight. If that makes the good cops' jobs more difficult -- too fucking bad.

Re:Interesting quotes

[MrResistor]

RedHat training costs more and is more comprehensive than MCS*, and it also lasts longer, because it teaches you system fundamentals instead of a flow-chart driven O/S template for a specific version of windows.

Well, there's also the issue that Red Hat doesn't completely shuffle around their admin interfaces with every version.

You have made a career on Slashdot of posting bullshit [slashdot.org] and insults [slashdot.org].

Are you sure you linked the right comments?

Re:Interesting quotes

[cmdr_beeftaco]

You are an abusive user bent on malice, and hopefully once the administrators are alerted, they will delete your account.
Right on! I too a strong proponent of open source and censorship. There should be a free exchange of software but a controlled exchange of ideas.

Stable, Robust, Free. And that's just the coffee.

[Limburgher]

Seriously, good to see stuff like this. And in Florida of all places!

What happened to the hundred dollar john?

[Kujah]

If i'm reading this right, the IT department of Largo is actually thinking about ways to save the taxpayers money instead of ways to spend it... If the rest of the country operated in such a fashion maybe we could pay our teachers better. Its interesting that they chose a thin linux client model, that seems to be the growing trend with IT departments (and they said linux was dying). Im pleasantly surprised that they managed to resist microsoft's pressure, as im sure they would have had nothing but issues with the CeMeNT model, and I think ill stop now because im rambling ;)

Re:What happened to the hundred dollar john?

[Anonymous Coward]

The big problem with most goverment organizations I have been associated with is the "use it or lose it" budget strategy. i.e. when X dollars are in the budget you'd better spend it all or next year you'll be cut back.

So when you come in under budget you darn well better be sure this year's spending is enough to keep you going next year, 'cause you ain't getting any more. This makes it really hard dealing with expenditures on durable goods like computers since you can't buy new PCs every three years or so, you have to keep a steady stream of orders going to equalize your long term budget. :-(

Re:What happened to the hundred dollar john?

[sdsurfgeek]

All the more reason to sign up for Microsoft's Software Assurance Plan. > his makes it really hard dealing with > expenditures on durable goods like computers > since you can't buy new PCs every three years > or so, you have to keep a steady stream of > orders going to equalize your long term budget

Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[syntap]

I'm glad a municipality has caught onto hitting eBay for quality used equipment, as Largo did according to the article. OSS, plus cheaper (and SLIGHTLY) older equipment can add up to huge cost savings. Hell, any .com that dies probably has enough server and networking hardware to outfit any small company. Municipalities need to make it easier for their IT managers to purchase items used (like from eBay) and quit limiting themsleves to purchasing contracts.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[sheldon]

The problem is, your solution does not scale.

If every municipality in the US is out on ebay looking for NCD thin clients... Suddenly the price of NCD thin clients is no longer $5 each... it's $500/each. Or the equipment is simply not available.

Ohwell, good luck.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[repetty]

Yes, it scales. They've takes advantage of some great, unanticipated opportunities that have come along, but I don't see how anyone can knock their basic premise.

Even paying full price for the terminals, as I'm sure they cautiously budgeted, it's still cost effective.

You have to know that they didn't cruise eBay, see the thin terminals, and then yell, "Hey, this will work!"

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Master Bait]

I saw somebody selling 50 Sun Sparc X terminal 1s on s Dutch auction this weekend. These things were being offered for $12.00 opening bid and nobody bid!

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[WindBourne]

Capitalism is a wonderful thing. If they go up much in price, then you move to a different system or even a different paradigm. This only fails when a company(s) or a government (Or possibly both) interfere with it.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[sheldon]

Ok, but now your strategy has become, "Use architecture A until hardware supply dries up on ebay... then reevaluate it and begin using a new architecture."

If I was an IT manager I would not at all be comfortable with that solution as it has a tremendous risk as it prevents you from creating a budget even over the short term.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[mt_nixnut]

I actually use thin clients and I can tell you it scales. Even at full price a thin client is cheaper than a standard desktop. (forget software) And if you add the central admin and increased reliability to it there is no comparison. Then you ADD the free software with no license hassles and you really have a big savings.(and a happier life ;)

The only thing that can be a problem ( not in a well designed system) is managing system and network loads.

I have done this for around 3 years now in a small 100 - 200 user environment and it is great.

The eBay thing is nothing but gravy.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Jason Earl]

So you simply use a different thin client. Personally I would probably opt for something PC based anyhow. The Wal-Mart Linux PCs can be had cheaply enough that you wouldn't feel bad throwing them away, and they would be easy to image with software from the Linux Terminal Server Project. This type of a setup requires a little more work than simply buying X terminals, but the availability of PC hardware is not likely to decrease anytime soon, and you can probably reuse existing PC hardware.

The beauty of thin clients isn't the fact that you can use cheap hardware (though that certainly helps). The beauty of thin clients stems from the fact that you don't ever have to troubleshoot individual PCs. All software can be managed centrally, and failed terminals can be replaced by a monkey.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Alien Being]

Damn. If only *nix had been built on some nice open standards, then they could choose from a wide variety of used computers and run free display server and thin client software on them.

Get a clue.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Jason Earl]

Yes, but as long as you are dealing with open protocols like X Windows there is little to fear. Largo could replace their NCD X terminals today with Wal-Mart Linux PCs, or reconditioned PCs available on the used market, and things would "just work." Any hardware newer than a 486 with color output should make a perfectly useable X terminal.

In other words, there is basically no risk in basing your network around X Windows. There are plenty of X Terminal suppliers, and even if all of these suppliers dried up tomorrow it is still a trivial exercise to roll your own. Making X terminals from PCs is certainly much easier than rolling out full Windows installs.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Usquebaugh]

This isn't capitalism at all, it's supply and demand. Do not mix politcal idealogies with economic models.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[sheldon]

The Risk aspect I discussed was not whether or not it would work, but whether or not you could properly budget for the solution.

Your cobbled together solution doesn't have a fixed cost associated with it, it will cost a different amount weekly depending on what it is you buy. Also as you introduce new cobbled together equipment to the environment, you've increased your support costs as you now have to manage multiple configurations.

It introduces some new variables which would have to be studied. I guess the point is, from an IT manager perspective life is a lot simpler if you can choose a solution and stick with it for at least a year. The cost Risk is also a little easier to handle when buying new equipment as you are fairly assured the prices will go down, not up. Better to come in under budget than over.

I've worked both in private industry and in government, and this cobbled together inelegant solution would probably fly in the government. But with the exception of a few small companies I've dealt with, few in private industry would accept this as a solution.

Again, it reminds me of the recent article discussing the cobbled together PVR. These were solutions that looked like good ideas when I was new to the industry 15 years ago, but over the years I've learned from experience that they aren't such great ideas.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Jason Earl]

No, my solution was no more "cobbled together" than any other PC based solution I have ever heard of. Just like any large PC rollout you would have a very small number of "supported" platforms. In fact, you would probably only have one supported platform. In the case of Largo, FL the supported platform would almost certainly be the NCD X terminal. Worse comes to worse a new desktop would cost you $750 for a brand new terminal plus $170 for the monitor. The difference is that now you can also search for bargain basement prices. Purchasing used PCs is a recipe for disaster for most IT shops, purchasing used X terminals, on the other hand, is something else entirely.

Now, let's say that you went the PC route. This is somewhat more difficult, as you would have to either purchase from a vendor that could offer you the same make/model for an extended period of time, or you would have to purchase enough units so that you could handle replacements yourself. The important thing to note is that this is no different than what you would have to do if you were putting Windows fat clients on people's desktops. Any added costs that you incur would be costs that you would have incurred either way. The difference is that thin clients don't require a state-of-the-art machine. A $200 SunRay or even the $200 Wal-Mart Linux box would be fine.

If, after a year, you don't like your previous choice, you can always switch. The difference is that upgrading your software no longer requires client hardware upgrades. Think of the expense that was required last time your PC clients needed new software upgrades. Invariably this means throwing out tons of perfectly good hardware. In a thin client environment you simply upgrade the server and you are finished.

Once again, just because X Windows gives you a lot of choices does not mean that it is unmanageable.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Tony-A]

whether or not you could properly budget for the solution.
Pretty simple. You budget dollars for what reasonably priced new equipment would cost. In actual practice, you can save 80 to 95% of the budgeted amount but cannot reliably count on those savings, so you don't budget the savings. The budget is what you are prepared to spend, only slightly related to what you will spend.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Tony-A]

Purchasing used PCs is a recipe for disaster for most IT shops
True if they must all run all the same apps, all the same way. As thin clients and/or running something resembling a browser, seems like you could survive very well with some very strange assortments.
They do have one advantage. They are expendable, very expendable. What happens if you hot-swap a normal hard drive or a pci card?

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Daengbo]

I'm really confused: what do you mean by they would be easy to image with software from the Linux Terminal Server Project? There is no local hard drive to image and only an eprom (maybe a floppy for the short-term). Elaborate

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Jason Earl]

I am sorry, my post really was confusing. I have found that when making thin-clients out of PCs that it can be handy to actually make use of the local hard drive.

Yes, I know this is cheating, but it does make it easier to use mix-and-match hardware as X terminals. It's a little easier on the network as well.

So that's the mystery of imaging my thin clients with software.

Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings

[Daengbo]

I suspected that was what you meant, but LTSP gives great flexibility in booting, and everything sits in RAM after that. With 16Mb, I never have a problem. I know several people, however, who prefer your method. It just makes one more point of failure and something else that I need to reinstall.

Eh..

[mstyne]

Roblimo went down there, drank their coffee, and wrote a follow-up piece...

Whatever.

Re:Eh..

[yack0]

So it's in the coffee now, used to be we were warned about the Kool-Aid.

j

Digitized Cops

[mdechene]

I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.

Well, digitized cops are bad, but at least they're not proprietary digitized cops.....This is Slashdot. Duh.

Re:Digitized Cops

[sphealey]

I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.

If one takes Lord of the Flies or, perhaps more formally, Leviathan seriously, then even a strict freedeom / privacy zealot will admit that there must be some amount of government and policing.

The questions are: (i) how much (i) who controls the amount (iii) who guards the guardians?

Experience shows that, while it can be subject to abuse, answering those questions locally is the best way to ensure the maximum amount of freedom.

Sure, maybe Officer Bustem is getting a little out of hand with looking up data on his patrol car tablet. But I can always discuss the issue with my city council member, or even run for city council myself if I don't like the answers. Or I could reasonably move out of Smallville if the laws are ultimately not to my liking. But I have zero chance of influencing the Atty. General of the United States, and it would be very difficult to pick up and move out of the US of A.

So: the technology itself is good. It could be misused. But it is up to the citizens of that juristdiction to control their own fate.

sPh

Re:Digitized Cops

[Tassach]

Sure, maybe Officer Bustem is getting a little out of hand with looking up data on his patrol car tablet

Which is why the system should be logging all of his searches, and why those logs should be reviewed by his superiors and/or an independent auditor. Law enforcement officers are placed in a position of special trust, but that trust should not be given blindly. A cop who misuses his special privilidges must be held personally responsible for his actions. If a public official does something which would land a member of the general public in jail, then they should suffer the same fate.

Re:Digitized Cops

[wbajzek]

Step out of the car with your hands up, or face immediate deresolution!

Re:Digitized Cops

[Skjellifetti]

Sure, maybe Officer Bustem is getting a little out of hand with looking up data on his patrol car tablet. But I can always discuss the issue with my city council member, or even run for city council myself if I don't like the answers. Or I could reasonably move out of Smallville if the laws are ultimately not to my liking. But I have zero chance of influencing the Atty. General of the United States, and it would be very difficult to pick up and move out of the US of A.

The AttyGen may be more of a friend than you realize. Any idea of how many times the AttyGen has taken a local police force into court for civil rights violations where the local politicians turn a blind eye to problems? Here in Ohio, both Cincinnati and Columbus have had recent run-ins with the DOJ over police abuses. The New Jersey State Police, Buffalo, LA, Pittsburg, and DC police are all currently being monitored by the DOJ.

I'm waiting...

[jaredcoleman]

for Debian Does Dallas!

Re:I'm waiting...

[mustangdavis]

I'm waiting for ... Debian Does Dallas!

But I hope that the people of Dallas use some RedHats for protection before doing such a slutty ditribution

Re:I'm waiting...

[7-Vodka]

Debian is not slutty at all! In fact she is altogether fridgid. I've been trying for ages to warm her up to the idea of a KDE 3some and she's been denying me like I'm a lunatic.

Basically it's a GOOD setup

[vasqzr]

They use the strengths of *nix, and this is just a good example of how good it can work.

I'm sure they have quality people behind this project, and not some pimple-faced 19 year old MCSE who plays Unreal 2003 when he's not making fun of his 'luser' co-workers.

Re:Basically it's a GOOD setup

[Anonymous Coward]

and not some pimple-faced 19 year old MCSE who plays Unreal 2003 when he's not making fun of his 'luser' co-workers.

Actually most MCSEs that work for decent companies are degree-holding, unlike the 14 year old sandal-wearing Linux h4X0rs that think they know everything but don't. I think you have the wrong side of the joke, pal.

Re:Basically it's a GOOD setup

[fucksl4shd0t]

Actually most MCSEs that work for decent companies are degree-holding, unlike the 14 year old sandal-wearing Linux h4X0rs that think they know everything but don't. I think you have the wrong side of the joke, pal.

Having formerly sold software to aid MCSE's to administer their networks, I'd have to say that your comment and my experience are contrary to one another. Friend.

Re:Basically it's a GOOD setup

[bergeron76]

Actually, I think the joke is on you, buddy. Who do you think is happier going into work?

a) The 14-year-old sandal wearing Linux h4Xor that thinks he knows everything and gets paid more

-or-

b) The pretentious college grad working for a "decent" company who gets paid less

Hell, you don't even have to be a college grad to figure this one out! You're waving the "college degree" thing around as if it's an entitlement. I say best man(or tool) for the job.

NCD Terms

[zmalone]

Its worth noting that they are using NCD x-terminals. While buying used NCD equipment works well if you've already invested in their hardware, if you are setting up equipment from scratch, it is not an effective solution. NCD does not provide their drivers for download, and charges a fairly hefty amount of money for them, so if you want to set up x-terms at home, or at a small buisness, buy something else, unless you are already familiar with this.

Quite a few people seem to have picked these things up after the last article, not realizing how much of a pain it would be to get them running

Re:NCD Terms

[valisk]

Yeah all true, but they cost more than the NCD clients and dont last as long, a nasty side effect of the least cost manufacturing process.

Re:NCD Terms

[cs668]

You do need to have to boot file if you want the latest. Most of them can be booted localy at the original prompt if you just want plain old X.

Woohoo!

[intermodal]

There's nothing like a real networking operating system, with a robust TCP/IP stack and an efficient kernel to reduce costs...

then again my dad is the head tech for a county court system in California and he only buys contract boxes with Windows, all the while making fun of my Linux home network...

Re:Woohoo!

[Smelly Jeffrey]

then again my dad is the head tech for a county court system in California and he only buys contract boxes with Windows

Does anyone else see the problem here?

How can courts ruling in various Microsoft issues ever consider themselves impartial when their computers, by contract, run Windows?

Re:Woohoo!

[pherthyl]

Thats retarded. What if they were running linux (or BeOS or whatever)? Would it be impartial then?

Maybe we should force them to not run any OS! Or boot them all back to C-64s or better yet, just take their computers away altogether. :P

medium-size city in Texas too.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm the network admin for a city govt in Texas and we're looking *really close* at migrating all our NT servers and as many clients as possible to Linux. Our IT dept budget is only one half of one percent of the city's total municipal budget anyway so we're accustomed to having to get by on a shoestring budget. We were never given funding to upgrade (sic) from NT4 to W2K on the server side anyway. The only thing that's kept us from being able to move all our filesharing to Linux+Samba has been the lack of adequate backup software that can work with our big tape jukebox and backup open files and handle all the required scheduling and notification(like Veritas Backup Exec is doing for us)... and lack of an antivirus package that can scan files on the fly as they pass in and out thru Samba (like NAI's Netshield has been doing for us).

Re:medium-size city in Texas too.

[q2a]

Ok Anonymous, do your homework.

I'm migrating about 500 clients and 20 NT4 servers to 'mostly' linux and I run Veritas for backup and Sophos antivirus on my servers and clients.

Can't get more 'adequate' then that friend.
The revolution has begun ;)

Re:medium-size city in Texas too.

[YetAnotherDave]

if you're doing backup over the network, why not just backup the samba shares?

we use veritas, and rather than pay for another product which would run under linux (or worse, use a separate system for the linux boxes) we just have a bunch of smb shares which the veritas system on a win2K box backs up.

Am I missing something here...

Re:Florida is a terrible place to live.

[mark_lybarger]

Cheap houses, no state income tax.... meth labs in their trailers, etc. Lots of drug runners ...

way to go, /. the state of florida.

Failure cases and recovery

[mekkab]

forgive me, becuase I'm not too up on the details of thin-client-hood (my assumptions are that its a lot like a mainframe, or that unix system that all the undergrads would use for their mail and programs. 5000 kids at once bringing a Challenge L to its knees...)

and its nice that they are careful and have a redundant system.

But I'm interested in their worst case scenario plans (more than just saying "well, our systems are redundant!") and what is the worst disaster they have had to deal with.

Sure, its cool that they have localized where all the problems are going to be (the servers) but when do they predict the "the network is too slow!" calls will start coming in?

Knowledgable IT's

[mojowantshappy]

This sound's great and all, and I am all for it, but it seems that one would need some pretty intellegent/knowledgable/creative IT's to get this running. For instance, using a thin client for the tablet PC. I could be wrong here, I hope I am.

Re:Knowledgable IT's

[ostiguy]

Exactly. These guys sound like they are real quality *nix sys admins. I bet they are making sub 70k in florida. In NYC, Boston, et al they are worth probably > 85k, and as such would *never* likely end up in the public sector. Its almost always about the admins.

ostiguy

Re:Knowledgable IT's

[dohcvtec]

one would need some pretty intellegent/knowledgable/creative IT's
I'm not sysadmin, so I can only speculate here, but doesn't that go with the territory? In other words, it sounds like you're saying, "Whoa, in order to implement something like this, we would actually need sysadmins that can do their jobs." Sorry, but I would think that being intelligent/knowledgable/creative would be almost part of the job description of any halfway-decent sysadmin.

Re:Knowledgable IT's

[mojowantshappy]

Hehe, yeah, but the fact is most IT people don't really know what they are doing. At least in my experience.

Re:Knowledgable IT's

[mojowantshappy]

Yeah, but in my experience, most IT people aren't that intellegent or creative, especially when it comes to the government.

Re:Knowledgable IT's

[geekoid]

thats correct for the average sysadmin, unfortunatly that means half the sysadmins aren't qualified...

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[nightsweat]

Some good points, but you're 100% wrong about the penguin.

The penguin logo is your "Happy Face" and is one of the few marketing things done right so far with Linux. It gives the public a symbol and a protagonist. It personifies the OS (OK, it "Penguisonifies" the OS if you want to get technical).

The Michelin Man, Ronald McDonald, The Shell Answer Man and others all serve the same purpose for their brands. Heck, for a while Charlie Chaplin served that role for IBM.

The key is not to eliminate the logo, but to exploit it appropriately.

Your other points are well taken, though.

Most important quote...

[dubious9]

"Don't forget, Harold isn't getting paid by anyone except Largo taxpayers, and his job is to keep their IT expenses as low as he can while providing ever-better IT services to the city employees who use them to do their jobs. In light of this, Harold's comparative cost figures are probably at least as trustworthy as anyone's -- and lots more trustworthy than some."

Its good to finally see a TCO that is about as unbiased as you can get. Other than this I've not yet to see a TCO (either proclaiming Linux or Windows) that isn't slanted in some way to paid for by a OS supplier.

Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux. All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up. I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows. Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals hugh hardware savings.

I'd say linux is just icing on the cake, (and probably leads to more silent beepers and a couple less admins). Still, remember that this is a total implementation comparision between municipalities, not purely Windows vs. Linux.

Re:Most important quote...

[nojomofo]

All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up

Yes, but if they used windows everywhere, would they be able to use dirt-cheap hardware? No, so even that reduction is a result of using a Linux solution.

Re:Most important quote...

[tsetem]

Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux. All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up. I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows. Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals hugh hardware savings.

I think one important facet is could they run Windows on the same kind of hardware as the equipment they are buying as Linux terminals? Granted, the HW is dirt cheap, but also consider that Windows XP needs to run on a 1Gh+ machine with 128Mb of memory. Suddenly cheap hardware doesn't make sense in a Windows installation.

The big advantage is that old and underpowered systems can be recycled and still used. So Largo sees a cost savings in both SW licensing, and HW costs. But the costs are intertwined. Buying a Windows license also means buying more expensive HW to run it on.

Re:Most important quote...

[sheldon]

"Its good to finally see a TCO that is about as unbiased as you can get."

Umm, it was written by Roblimo which means it's about as biased as you can get.

"Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux."

I also have the impression from the article that they are providing less services than some other cities. Perhaps the story should be titled "How to spend less money if you're willing to rely on fewer services."

Roblimo doesn't go into much detail on this, which is unfortunate but would be important to a city manager making a buying decision.

Re:Most important quote...

[Idarubicin]

Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux. All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up. I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows. Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals hugh hardware savings.

What was your plan for using Windows with the low-cost dumb terminals, again?

Re:Most important quote...

[wobblie]

Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux. All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up. I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows. Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals hugh hardware savings.

Funny, I though it was linux (well, X11) that enbled one to use the terminals in the first place. With windows, you pay even more for terminals (terminal server cost, terminal server license) than for PC's. So it still goes back to linux vs. windows, see?

Re:Most important quote...

[ostiguy]

There are a lot of thin client solutions for windows. Native terminal services, citrix, and there is now a cheaper citrix competitor whose name I am blanking on. Most thin client hardware should support the MS protocols. Yeah, server side hardware costs may be higher, but this article did not touch upon server hardware spaces at all.

ostiguy

Re:Most important quote...

[dubious9]

From the Zdnet article linked from the story article, they still use a windows servers to serve up applications. They also say they use windows where it makes sence to use it. They aren't 100% linux, but rather they say as they move that way they wind up using less and less money.

Re:Most important quote...

[dubious9]

Yes, it is written by a biased source, but they are taking numbers from an unbiased business. I'm assuming the quotes are correct, and that Largo even exists (Hey, I've never been there). Why would Largo have any reason bias linux or windows. They just use what works cheaply.

I also have the impression from the article that they are providing less services than some other cities.

What gives you this impression. What services don't they have?

Re:Most important quote...

[0x0d0a]

impression...they are providing less services than some other cities

I was pretty impressed, actually? What "services" does your city provide that this one isn't?

Re:Most important quote...

[evilpenguin]

Have you priced Citrix? Yeah. That's a savings over this. (Although it is a big savings over fat Windows clients all over the place).

Re:Most important quote...

[T3kno]

I would really like to know how you would connect 200 thin clients to a windows terminal server or a citrix solution. The cost of that server alone will eat up your 1.3% budget, not to mention the per user and per processor licensing fees.

Re:Most important quote...

[sheldon]

Also going back through the article it appears like Roblimo didn't take the time to interview endusers or city managers. Are they happy with the service provided?

As far as services, again Roblimo doesn't go into much detail, but towards the end of the article he hints at it with this statement:

"He is upset with other local governments that use Visual Basic or ActiveX to make Intranet and Internet applications with which Largo people must interact"

The key to a good IT solution is that you are meeting the needs of the endusers. Roblimo doesn't address that, but then that's because he is a Linux zealot who are of the old-school belief that life would be easier without endusers.

Re:Most important quote...

[dohcvtec]

Yeah, server side hardware costs may be higher
And server side software costs may (actually, will) be higher as well if you use terminal services, Citrix, whatever.

Re:Most important quote...

[4of12]

I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows.

Yes I'm a Linux OSS fan. But, yes, you're quite right. An efficiently run organization with Windows can still streamline their operation.

The route of optimum savings with lowest risk is to just get the only decent MS OS (2000) and run it into the ground. [Kind of like new cars - don't buy one every few years - get a really reliable one and run it into the ground.]

A lot of IT departments that aren't brave enough to go wholescale into OSS in 2002 are picking the middle route:

• stick with Win2K where it's been setup and working,
• dump Software Assurance 6.0,
• expand prototyping of Linux servers,
• let IT staff become more comfortable with Linux,
• in a few years when Linux is an even safer and more proven bet than now, make a larger transition (but probably not an abrupt step function).

Re:Most important quote...

[TMLink]

He didn't talk to end users because they had already been interviewed in the first article.

Re:Most important quote...

[Tony-A]

Direct vs indirect savings.
Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals huge hardware savings.
With Linux. you tend to look for such things. With Microsoft Windows, you do not.

Re:Most important quote...

[sheldon]

Not to a very large extent, and even in the first article he takes the position that endusers are an inconvenience.

I'm sorry, but the article is just incredibly biased and doesn't take a real critical look at the solution implemented.

Re:Most important quote...

[supine]

They don't.

There are 200+ X-Window terminals. Only some users who need to run MS products connect to MS Terminal Servers using the *nix Citrix client.

marty

Re:Meh.

[mstyne]

Yes, they do.

Linux servers for the masses for 89 bucks!

[Newer Guy]

Okay..I've found the Linux nirvana.n a word: Wirex. Their Immunix server appliance software is the easiest server to set up I've ever seen. Yes I know that you geeks out there will look upon it with disdain, but the bottom line is that Joe Sixpack can figure how to configure this one! And yes, I know this is a shameless plug (and no, I have nothing to do with Wirex) but when you find something this good, you just gotta share it.

strange slashdot effect

[greechneb]

All of the sudden the city of Largo notices NCD thin clients jumped up in price on ebay... surely couldn't be slashdotting ebay now? could we?

Re:strange slashdot effect

[0x0d0a]

No, it just means that they accidently overpurchased those $5 NCD thin clients and they're "saving money for the city of Largo" again by reselling them...at a hefty profit.

This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[FreeUser]

I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.

One of the real plusses of being UNIX savvy in general, and GNU/Linux/free software/open source savvy in particular, is that one actually often earns a better living than their Microsoftoid equivelents. Why? Because paying one knowledgable person who, in a GNU/Linux, *BSD, or *NIX shop can do the work that requires three or four MSCE's (assuming a modicum of competence on the MSCE's part, an assumption that is, as many here have pointed out repeatedly, is not one that is safe to make), 1.5 - 2 times the salary still translates into a tremendous human resources savings, and brings with it the added benefits of expertise, lower turnover, and attention to detail (and research) pointed out in this article.

If you are saving money because your staffing requirements are lower (in raw numbers of bodies), your licensing costs are lower, and your TCO costs are lower (all nearly always true with GNU/Linux or FreeBSD vs. Microsoft), you can pay a premium for really good people and have the benefits that brings along with tremendous savings.

Which is great for everyone, except shoddy admins who probably should find another line of work anyway. It is certainly great for those of us who know what we are doing and take pride in doing quality work for our clients/employers, and like to be rewarded in kind.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[Lumpy]

If you are saving money because your staffing requirements are lower (in raw numbers of bodies), your licensing costs are lower, and your TCO costs are lower (all nearly always true with GNU/Linux or FreeBSD vs. Microsoft), you can pay a premium for really good people and have the benefits that brings along with tremendous savings.

the largest problem and downfall with this is having a city manager that isnt a nutcase. If they can reduce the employee count from 3 to 1 there is no way in hell they will increase the one person's salary even by 50% (which still saves 150% if you did give a 50% raise) in fact they will fight like hell to keep that position to be the same level and pay it is now. Which will have an interesting effect... when the current poor sod quits for a real paying job (>$25,000.00 a year) they will try and hire someone for the same amount. not being able to get one they will instantly blame the entire project a failure and the cause of their woes instead of blaming the City Manager for being an idiot who refuses to pay people what they are worth. (if you pay anyone well pay your IT well as they are your backbone and can crush your entire corp/office like a bug)

i've seen this way too many times in small/ medium cities... when someone get's a raise everyone else getting less than that person whines like fricking children... espically if a manager is making less than a non-manager position... doesn't matter if there is skill required..

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[ergo98]

assuming a modicum of competence on the MSCE's part, an assumption that is, as many here have pointed out repeatedly, is not one that is safe to make

Using the average wisdom of Slashdot is a perilous exercise. The average Slashdotter knows astoundingly little about Windows development, the Windows platform, or Windows administration, although they never fail to proclaim their mastery of the same.

If you are saving money because your staffing requirements are lower (in raw numbers of bodies), your licensing costs are lower, and your TCO costs are lower (all nearly always true with GNU/Linux or FreeBSD vs. Microsoft), you can pay a premium for really good people and have the benefits that brings along with tremendous savings.

Firstly, countless studies have shown that in the TCO game it is a wash: While the fanatics rally against any study that proclaims Windows the winner in TCO (it's amazing the fine-toothed comb criticism of studies that occurs when a they proclaims !(Linux) the winner of anything, versus the completely uncritical consumption and cult-like "just believe" that occurs with any study proclaiming Linux 'teh ownz'), the reality is that many respected, unbiased studies have found it to sway either way when filling similar roles. Linux/FreeBSD do not own the TCO in any unanimous way, but instead are appropriate tools in specific instances.

Having said that, I have found that many people confuse technology imposed scope limitations with TCO: i.e. A Linux shop has a small application set and has low TCO becauses users have the ability to A, and the server does B, versus a Windows-enabled engineering shop with dozens of in-house applications, dozens of third party apps (and the TCO that goes along with it), and countless different uses and configurations.

While at a prior organization I was responsible for a very heavily loaded application server hosting some monster loads and queries. This beast ran a huge SQL Server database in concert with a highly complex query engine, all on a low end Dell machine (a Dell PowerEdge 2400 with a couple of P3 667s). I actually even did development and testing on this production machine (ah the downsides of low cost development). Total crashes: ZERO. This was on NT 4, btw. Total exploits on this publicly accessible server: ZERO. I generally never touched this machine and it just purred along serving up pages for months on end to happy customers.

BTW: The witty will be prepared to proclaim that "Oh, then you must suck because there's a Microsoft patch requiring a reboot every other week!". About 95% of those patches, which I am informed of via Microsoft Security emails, have absolutely no applicability to servers running as front-line web servers with no untrusted interactive logons. The only ones who generally are rebooting their server once a week are the self-proclaimed "UNIX savvy" admin who's doing anything and everything to put themselves on a cross.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[Eric Damron]

"Using the average wisdom of Slashdot is a perilous exercise. The average Slashdotter knows astoundingly little about Windows development, the Windows platform, or Windows administration, although they never fail to proclaim their mastery of the same."

I work in an all Windows IT environment so your statement does not apply to me.

"Firstly, countless studies have shown that in the TCO game it is a wash"

Actually that's not correct. Linux servers are really no harder to maintain than Microsoft servers in fact due to their stability they are less troublesome. So, even if the cost of administrating them is a wash we still have licensing issues. Microsoft charges a HUGE amount for that. So TCO of a Linux network is about half of the TCO of a Windows network.

For a shop that is switching to Linux there is an initial learning curve that would drive the cost of training up but this would also be true of a Linux shop that was going to switch to Windows.

As far as your proclamation that NT 4.0 servers are stable enough never to need a reboot I say BULLSHIT! Under the advice of Microsoft we reboot at least once a month.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[ergo98]

Linux servers are really no harder to maintain than Microsoft servers in fact due to their stability they are less troublesome. ...this is to be taken as wisdom, and then...

As far as your proclamation that NT 4.0 servers are stable enough never to need a reboot I say BULLSHIT! Under the advice of Microsoft we reboot at least once a month.

My anecdote beats your anecdote! My experience trumps your experience.

I don't need your personal stamp of agreement on my claim, however it's completely true nonetheless. Perhaps there is a specific scenario that requires you to "reboot once a month", however I highly, highly doubt that Microsoft "recommends" that (do you mind pointing out that whitepaper? "Reboot once a month"): They may recommend cycling particularly troublesome, memory leaking applications (such as Exchange in some variants which is an imperfect application) but there is virtually never a reason to reboot the server. Well, ignorance of the administrator is probably as good as a reason as any. "It's doing something funny and I never did nuttin'! [apart from twiddling with the settings in the network configuration] Reboot!". I once worked with a group of clowns that would actually reboot the server multiple times to see if their garbage custom software would work in some instances. "Ooooh...maybe this time!"

So, even if the cost of administrating them is a wash we still have licensing issues. Microsoft charges a HUGE amount for that.

While licensing costs seem to be all that the average Slashdotter can focus on, study after study has found that licensing costs are trivial in the grand scheme of things. A recent study pegged licensing costs as 5% of a yearly IT infrastructure. It isn't quite the trump card that the freeware society thinks it is.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[FreeUser]

Yes, and less jobs. If every city were like Largo, the IT labor market would be even more horrible than it is now.

Only for MSCEs. Does anybody really care about them anyway?

Seriously, the wages of competent admins will go up, the wages of marginal admins, or admins with skill sets inappropriate to a free software/open source and/or *NIX environment will plummet. So what? It isn't the job of government to employ, it is the job of government to get the best value per dollar for each tax dollar spent, and using a free platform such as GNU/Linux or FreeBSD is clearly head and shoulders above Microsoft's proprietary platform in providing exactly that value.

c'est la vie ... MSCEs can retrain themselves, or find a different line of work.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[Eric Damron]

"do you mind pointing out that whitepaper?"

This was from a support call. $250 per pop btw.

Your "experience" certainly does NOT trump my twenty years of experience. The fact that you appear to be clueless as to the costs of Microsoft licensees proves that.

We purchase unlimited client licenses for our SQL server. It costs us $10,000.00 PER PROCESSOR!! So for a four-processor server we're looking at 40 grand. And that's just for the SQL server!

I suggest that you finish college before trying to pass yourself off as an administrator.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[ergo98]

This was from a support call. $250 per pop btw.

Oh, uh, yeah. Well during MY support call they said "Eric Damron is a poopy head!".

Your "experience" certainly does NOT trump my twenty years of experience.

Granted your illustrious history with DOS 5 and cobol makes you a real expert in the world of Windows. Claiming graybeard status doesn't get you props here, especially when talking about relatively recent technology.

The fact that you appear to be clueless as to the costs of Microsoft licensees proves that...We purchase unlimited client licenses for our SQL server. It costs us $10,000.00 PER PROCESSOR!! So for a four-processor server we're looking at 40 grand. And that's just for the SQL server!

Wow, $40K! Gosh darnit that's crazy! Let's see: What sort of firm would need a 4 processor SQL Server license? Oh, right, the sort of firm that has tens of millions of dollars in payroll yearly. While it may amaze you as you contemplate how many Big Macs and Ding Dongs equals that $40K, in reality that is a drop in the bucket for the type of organizations that would need such a license. Hell, a 100-head organization with a $5 million yearly personelle charge alone (excluding all those other things) would easily get by with a single CPU version of SQL Server Standard: $5,000 (and that version bought 3 years ago would still be going strong, so per year $1666). Actually I'm a fan of using the per-connected-device CAL licensing to fully utilize powerful servers, but that's just an academic exercise right now.

I'm sure that the CEO is shivering in his boots every night as he contemplates that $1666/year database charge as he takes the $1700 express flight home from his $4000 business trip to look in on the IT crew playing solitaire at $1000 weekly each.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[ergo98]

As a sidenote, when I said "My anecdote beats your anecdote! My experience trumps your experience.", I should have instead ended that with an exclamation mark indicating the sarcasm that I was trying to portray.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[Eric Damron]

"Oh, uh, yeah. Well during MY support call they said "Eric Damron is a poopy head!".

What an intelligent thing to say. And by the way, The period should go inside the quotes, not outside. "Blah, blah, blah, stupid insult." Not "Blah blah blah stupid insult".

And again you don't have a clue about what size of organization would use four processor servers. $40,000.00 is a lot of money period. You could run Linux and an Apache web server for $0.00 in licensing fees and have unlimited connections so don't tell me that the costs are a wash.

And yes, having a "graybeard" and twenty plus years experience gives me a big advantage. I know how to manage a datacenter I doubt that you do.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[Eric Damron]

BTW, I said Apache web server but I was thinking Postgresql server. One of the reasons for wanting unlimited connections is for supplying data to web servers.

Also the $40,000.00 is just for the SQL server license. There are many more licenses and fees. Further the life expectancy of such a product is nowhere near ten years. With constant upgrades comes constant licensing fees.

Microsoft ties the license of its operating system to the hard drive so we can't just upgrade our servers and install the operating system that we have already purchased. Microsoft makes sure that with each new server box we must pay for new OS licenses. The costs just go on and on.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[Daengbo]

Americans live in a post-FDR society, where it has been proven over several recession/depressions that it is the government's job to employ during an economic downturn. My thoughts. Not that it should be....

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[ergo98]

What an intelligent thing to say. And by the way, The period should go inside the quotes, not outside. "Blah, blah, blah, stupid insult." Not "Blah blah blah stupid insult".

Ah, good old pedantry: The final tool of desperation. I won't bother pointing out the horrific punctuation in your own posts (you know -- the old saying about glass houses).

And again you don't have a clue about what size of organization would use four processor servers. $40,000.00 is a lot of money period.

Uh huh. A 4-processor SQL Server system offers tremendous performance (I say this from actual experience, versus your "But I work in a company where there are some computer guys!" experience): A large multiwarehouse databasing and sales system could easily run from that. Of course you're trying to apply the economics of a small rag-tag shop (one which would NEVER have a 4-processor machine, much less need a 4-processor SQL Server) with big operations, and it's pretty weak.

You could run Linux and an Apache web server for $0.00 in licensing fees and have unlimited connections so don't tell me that the costs are a wash.

Your ability to miss the point is absolutely staggering. The cost of licensing when considered against the whole cost of an implementation (I know firms that spend tens or hundreds of thousands in payroll and consulting just CONSIDERING the options to make sure they make he right choices in their deployment) is trivial, and this is something that freeware fanatics such as yourself fail to understand as your run around proclaiming the vast advantage that freeware apps offer. Is your time and the time of your coworkers free? Is the hardware free? Is the consulting and maintenance and upgrades free? The original point was that TCO is a wash in most studies, studies which I trust far more than your "just believe me" rhetoric: There is no clear economic advantage to going with free software.

And yes, having a "graybeard" and twenty plus years experience gives me a big advantage. I know how to manage a datacenter I doubt that you do.

No you don't. I don't know you personally but I do know that your post reeks of absolutely staggering idealism and a lack of reality. I'm a pragmatist myself: It's the cold hard facts that matter, not some half-baked notions of how a free Commodore 64 out of a trash pile offers a great economic advantage to the operation. I've seen projects balloon GROSSLY over budget because some idealist proclaimed that there's no need to spend the money and instead they'll roll it themselves...months later and many magnitudes more than the original avoided cost in payroll, they finally concede and the original plan is renewed. It repeats itself endlessly.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[ergo98]

Microsoft ties the license of its operating system to the hard drive so we can't just upgrade our servers and install the operating system that we have already purchased.

Such a limit is only imposed if one purchased an OEM copy with their shiny new hardware, otherwise there are no such limits: Buy a retail copy of Windows 2000 Server and you can swap it between machines (and most certanily between hard drives) countless times. An OEM copy, a route that very few firms follow when they buy servers, is indeed EULA restricted to the machine it was purchased with, but it most certainly doesn't prevent you from upgrading the hardware and reinstalling it on the same machine countless times (indeed, any limitations are legal rather than technical).

I'm not sure about the direction with Windows .NET Server 2003, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins!

[Eric Damron]

"An OEM copy, a route that very few firms follow when they buy servers..."

You are out of your flippin' head. Almost all firms purchase PCs in bulk that have a Microsoft OS preinstalled. I don't know of a single company that would buy hundreds or even thousands of PCs and make a separate purchase for retail versions of the OS. It's just not done. The extra cost of a retail version over what you will pay for preinstalled versions is not insignificant. Of course I have read your post in which you dispute this.

Like I said, I am an IT professional with over twenty years of experience. I am currently working in an all Microsoft environment and have watched as the cost of using Microsoft products have sky rocketed.

You on the other hand have obviously never had to manage a data center and are only parroting the Microsoft FUD that you have been given. Get with the program. Even Microsoft doesn't claim a lower TCO anymore. Oh yeah, You didn't say that Microsoft servers have a lower TCO, you said that it's a wash. And further you feel that $40,000.00 for a single license is insignificant and somehow the cumulative costs of thousands of Microsoft licenses don't significantly affect TCO.

Thank God you aren't a manager at my data center.

We use Microsoft products but we aren't clueless about the costs.

In Soviet Russia (sorry)...

[dubious9]

Da, in Soviet Russia, TCO compare YOU!
Da, in Soviet Russia, thin client runs YOU!
Da, in Soviet Russia, server serves YOU!

This is an open source comment, the following is the source code:

String SovietRussia(String noun, String verb){
return "Da, in Soviet Russia"+noun+verb+" You!";
}

System.out.println(SovietRussia("TCO","compare"));
System.out.println(SovietRussia("thin client","runs"));
System.out.println(SovietRussia("server","serves") );

This is a classic troll

[ACK!!]

I read this two weeks ago on a classic troll website. The website is made up of nothing but trolls and this one was listed.

Well crafted Trolls I actually do not mind as long as they are humorous and well-written.

________________________________________________ __ _

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure let's consolidate linux into a massive corporate environment with one standard and a cool dot-com name that reminds people of all the money they lost in the market. Then charge them a ton for the product in order to pay an idiot $4000/day to steal Nike's and Coca-Cola's logo and create a super logo that transcends culture and religion, then pay Nike and Coca-Cola huge settlements for copyright infringement. Since we're now profit driven, and we have the lawyers and an insatiatable thirst for money and killing competition, let's make sure that nobody attempts to improve our product all while cost cutting in the programming department to improve profits because now Joe Sixpack is screwed into staying with us and can't do anything about the fact that our latest software puts his SS# and credit profile on creditscam.com, although he hasn't figured it out yet because we don't release our security flaws until they're beaten out of us, and his browser hasn't worked since the last "update". Don't worry, with the price we charge we could have some of the most powerful lobbyists in the world pushing politicians to protect us. I think I have the perfect cool dot-com name: Is anyone using Microsoft? It kind of rolls off the tongue nicely. This guy may charge $4000/day, but it's Monday and he's not working. My guess is he hasn't worked since the cool sounding Dot-Coms all shut down because they wasted their money on his service as he talks about focus groups from the late 90s. Or maybe he just stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

Re:gay linux fanfic == gay

[Anonymous Coward]

Gayness radiates subatomic particles called "gaydons" except that they are so gay that they are generally called "gaydonth".

Groupware possibilities...

[otis wildflower]

I'd recommend Cyrus IMAP with Postfix SMTP, run both in SSL (with SMTP AUTH) and point it all to an OpenLDAP backend. Put phpgroupware in for web-based access. In fact, everything you do should be using LDAP, preferably LDAP over SSL, since once you go LDAP you start seeing neat possibilities open up when it comes to offering single username & password everywhere..

If compatibility with Outlook is not an issue, this is the easiest and thriftiest way to get groupware functionality.

Re:Groupware possibilities...

[alistair]

I fully agree with this. I run an LDAP infrastructure as you describe for a large multi national ( > 100,000 staff ) and after 3 years in production we now have over 100 applications taking and feeding employee and contractor data to it. The nice thing is that an incresing number of applications are now LDAP aware, from IMAP and POP mail server to around 9 different LDAP authentication modules for Apache, but increasingly products such as Notes and Network devices can use LDAP authentication, as can OSs such as Solaris.

Once you have a web authentication sorted out, it is then relativly simple to have a corporate directory on the web which allows users to keep their own details up to date, and once this is part of the company culture, you would be suprised as to the quality of this self service data. I have found that this then starts a "virtuous circle" of improving data quality, the more applications trust this data and feed from it, the more users are then reminded to keep the data up to date, the better the data quality becomes and hence the more applications use the data...

If you make your feed system email, then you even have an instant self service password system, since to update their details users can have a temporary password emailed to them, and you will always have their email address.

The return on investment can be fantastic, our most recent project was to replace the data maintained for 50,000 helpdesk users with the (mostly self service) data from the LDAP directory, and this is only one of many similar projects; so give it a go, you may be pleasenly suprised.

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[bwalling]

5) We have focus groups. They're called Usenet, web forums, mailing lists, and IRC.

Yeah, you're "focusing" on only the comments of people technically astute enough to use newsgroups and IRC. Those people could use your product to begin with. You need to focus on getting the feedback of people that don't know how to use NNTP and don't know that IRC even exists.

I did mine, now it's your turn

[Anonymous Coward]

At this year's OSCON, everyone was saying that it is time for OS proponents to take a more active voice in government. I have heard, and believe, that local governments actually have a larger impact on our day-to-day lives than state and national government, so that is a good place to start.

I just forwarded the article to my local city government. It took only 1 minute.

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[bwalling]

Now, I will not lower the tone of the debate by naming names. I will give a few brief profiles and community members will know who I am talking about.

Well, then, you're basically naming names.

Irony...

[TWX_the_Linux_Zealot]

So, did anyone else get a Microsoft ad in the Newsforge add space embedded in the article?

It's a conspiracy, I tell you!

Re:Irony...

[timotten]

Yes, and I took a screen shot, too!

This has *got* to be copy-pasted...

[0x0d0a]

appoint itself a "Marketing Spokesperson".

WTF do you think all the distros do?

The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.

Ah, yes. Goofy. Much like an apple with a bite out of it, or somesuch. Yes, I'm sure there are tons of IT people turning down Linux because they don't like the logo.

Downplay RMS, Linus, ESR, etc.

When a big IT department wants to buy Linux, they talk to Red Hat, not to the Linux Kernel Mailing List. This is not an issue.

DirectX

Oh, come on. I *know* you know about WINE.

Finally FOCUS GROUPS

Golly gee, that would be what Sun was doing with GNOME, wouldn't it? Or *any* of the big vendors do. Hmm...

Re:This has *got* to be copy-pasted...

[Kintanon]

I have to disagree with a single point here. Wine is not an acceptable substitute for windows functionality. Why should Linux not have native DirectX support? I assume it is incredibly difficult, but why has no major vendor done it yet? I don't WANT to run a windows emulator (yeah yeah, wine is not an emulator...), I just want to run linux.

Kintanon

Re:This has *got* to be copy-pasted...

[0x0d0a]

Wine *is* native. I can write an application and link against DirectX. A "native implementation" would be exactly what is in WINE (though perhaps packaged separately from the rest of WINE).

I live here

[coryboehne]

I live in Belle Air Beach, which is about 5 min away from largo.... Weather is nice actually, rainy today though.... I moved here from New Mexico though so I guess any weather is better than New Mexico weather.... Good to see that they are using linux... Anyone know if Roblimo is still in town... Could go for a starbucks with him... :)

Re:I live here

[kraksmoka]

know of any kewl linux user groups down here? haven't made a slashdot meetup yet, thurs. is always a busy workday for me.

Re:I live here

[The Gardener]

know of any kewl linux user groups down here?

The local Linux user's group is the Suncoast Linux User's Group or SLUG. The Web site is suncoastlug.org

The Gardener

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[Midnight Thunder]

Interesting post and a good perspective. I would like to add my 2c:

2) The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.

I am not sure about this. Maybe he needs to be restyled or something, but not done away with completely. Taking away Tux is like taking away the Apple logo. There is an association there, like it or not.

4) Direct X - A MAJOR stumbling block on Linux's road to world domination is the lack of Direct X support for Linux

There is such a thing. It is known an LibSDL. There are probably others, but this is the one that I know the best.

Now to some other issues:

Part of the problem is a culture clash and there are too many hard-liners on both side of the fence. What we need is a way to bring both sides together, in a way that suits both parties, rather than make them feel that they are giving in. People in marketing depend on the people doing the research and people in research depend on the people in marketing. Until both parties realise that, they each depend on each other, we aren't going to get far.

The anti-communist attitude is very American and illustrates a fear of an alternative approach to things. You can be socialist with out being a communist. Many contries in the world, such as European countries, successfully balance a social and commerical agenda.

Linux was original targeted as a server solution and does it does a good job there. I think part of the problem is that we are asking too much from Linux. We shouldn't be going out and expecting everyone to be using Linux. Rather we should be concentrating on making a great product and let those who wish come when they want. We can't be all things to all people and this is the most important lesson.

The best marketing are case studies. Both good ones and bad ones and evaluating why things worked and why things didn't work. Its also good for people developing with Linux to know why things went wrong and address the issues.

Worth it

[0x0d0a]

It's still worth it -- look at their savings -- that's including their salary. If you pay more to get one knowledgeable IT person and he saves you tons on software and hardware...that's a pretty good investment.

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[fitten]

"I tried Linux but it was too hard for me to install, then that guy flamed me on the newsgroups"

Heh... reading the replies to this post made me think back to this line.

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[mandolin]

I'm sorry, I don't have issues with most of your comment, but this suggestion:

The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.

What?! That's your ronald mcdonald happy face right there!

Largo From Experiance

[tbob419]

I was actually down there a few months ago, and I can say from a first had look at the place, that it's a very nice and neat setup. Even if you never worked on a thin client their setup was fast, easy and almost no learning curve. And being a somewhat of a "Windows guy" I have to admit that Linux is a viable choice for any organization.

This is a Troll. Here is the proof.

[molo]

In case anyone was doubtful over whether this post should get a -1 troll or not, i did a google search for:


"Here are a few example comments from a focus group session from Q3 1999 in response to a question about their attitudes to Linux and open source software"

A complete phrase like this should be unique if this article were original. It is not. There is an archive of the troll here, which was originally posted to slashdot on 6/25/2000:


http://www.spiralx.co.uk/texts/troll2.html

Everyone's Gay

[repetty]

Hmmm. Usually your ilk post something like "Mac == gay"

I guess to some Windows users, everyone is gay.

How did this get posted?

[Kyller]

Dave says "We're not anti-Microsoft."

That ruined the entire article, how did this get posted?

I've got to stop reading the articles before I post.

Why can't schools' do this?

[MikeLRoy]

After having worked for a highschool IT dept for 3 years, and having dealt with a univsersity IT dept for 2 years, i have to ask: why can't schools do this?

My highschool regularly got grants for buying hardware, and would then proceed to spend $2000 per windows workstation, not including software (they didn't license until they got yelled at by M$). But, they wouldn't hire more then 1 IT guy for 250 workstations, so nothing ever worked.

Same at my university. Aside from all the departmental and faculty machines (~4500), there are about 1500 open-area machines for students. These are a mix of unix thin-clients running solaris, and wintel machines, most of which are outdated. They insist upon buying new NCD/Sun thin-clients, running solaris, or buying new Wintel machines running win2k. Yet these machines cost them $1500-$2000 a piece! And all the old unix clinets (~800) running solaris are super slow (5+ minutes to log in!). Explain to me why a city, with offices here,there, and everywhere, manages to run a linux-based thin-client network, while a university with a huge IT budget runs one that's too slow to use!

Considering the non-existant cost of "outdated" hardware in the marketplace, people would figure out that to run an office suite, web browser, and email, all you need is a P150!!!

Re:Why can't schools' do this?

[Master Bait]

I'm all for the off-the-shelf PC-based Xterminal. Right now I'm sitting on an Nforce-based Xterminal, which with a 1.3ghz Duron costs us less than $200. We're pumping a 19" monitor at 1280x1024 24-bit color at a 100hz refresh rate. In my opinion, there is no Xterminal or Thin Client that offers this level of performance at any price. We have 100 BaseT ethernet (some of the thin clients still only offer 10BaseT.

The Micro ATX case is somewhat bigger than the typical thin client, and having to use modules for the proprietary Nforce/Nvidia drivers is a pain, but at this price everybody is very happy.

Re:Why can't schools' do this?

[pmz]

And all the old unix clinets (~800) running solaris are super slow (5+ minutes to log in!).

Me thinks they are connected to a badly architected network...or you are still using the SPARC lunchboxes from over a decade ago. How much of that login time is just the little old processor struggling against the transition from dtlogin (or equivalent) to CDE (or openwin) while working against a wee old NIS server over a 10Mb Ethernet?

Explain to me why a city, with offices here,there, and everywhere, manages to run a linux-based thin-client network, while a university with a huge IT budget runs one that's too slow to use!

The prevailing culture in the university's bureaucracy is living in the stone ages. I.e., it is probably made up of professors and admins who grew up, academically speaking, in the 70's and 80's and haven't learned a new thing since.

Re:Why can't schools' do this?

[Gothmolly]

There's no such thing as a P150, you insensitive clod!

Re:Why can't schools' do this?

[MikeLRoy]

Of course there is, you insensitive clod. As a matter of fact, i ran one for over a year. Yeah, it's just a 166 marked as a 150, but officially it was a 150! http://developer.intel.com/design/pentium/datashts /241997.htm - Intel spec site for pentium processors

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[ortholattice]

2) The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.

You forgot to mention the RedHat logo. Now there's a sinister, shady character if I ever saw one. How would you like to have him poking around inside your network at 3am?

No Way Jose

[955301]

Have you actually tried to do this? LDAP is a nifty idea on paper, but implementing it is a royal waste of time, when a normal rdbms will do just fine. And believe me, I was on my way to the Utopia you described until I went to implement it.

True, the namespace has a lot of potential, and some apps support it quite well. But the schema and lack of tools put LDAP on my blacklist until further notice, at least for a small co'.

As for easiest and thriftiest groupware impl using the protocols you mentioned, try James (jakarta.apache.org) instead. It implements IMAP, SMTP and NNTP. And if you really are a glutten for punishment, it has an LDAP connector as well.

Plus there are PAM solutions which will use a database. These, I have not tried (yet).

Re:No Way Jose

[otis wildflower]

Have you actually tried to do this? LDAP is a nifty idea on paper, but implementing it is a royal waste of time, when a normal rdbms will do just fine. And believe me, I was on my way to the Utopia you described until I went to implement it.

As a matter of fact, I have. I configured LDAP to handle samba, postfix, pam, and sasl AAA reqs for my last job and it was rock-solid. It was a small co that didn't want to pay $$$ for Active Directory (and I frankly didn't want a) M$ to get money that could be used to keep the biz running and b) I didn't want to deal with any 2k crap, and it was from scratch).

It can be a PITA, particularly with SASL only having decent LDAP support recently, as well as directory mgmt tools. You also have to keep standards fairly straight, such as using crypt() in userPassword for backwards compatibility for outlook & IE.. Also, LDAP gives you email address management (multiple mail: keys in a user) and with postfix an easy way to keep group aliases up to date (all members of group 'x' are subscribed to 'x@business.com' maillist). You also get a corporate realtme addressbook for free.

In fact also, I have configured pam_mysql for my current project, and it works ok, but if I were managing a centralized AAA repository, LDAP would be my only choice.

Do not doubt the power of LDAP, grasshopper...

Power saving alone...

[Steveftoth]

make the choice to switch to thin clients attractive.

The model of thin client they are using only uses 19-25 watts of power. Compared to a standard PC which uses at least 150 watts, that is a huge power savings. True, the monitor uses about half the power, but that can be miminized if you also switch to a lcd.

Amen!

[mikosullivan]

As someone who also has a degree in marketing, let me start by agreeing with everything you say. Marketing is not a dirty word. "Marketing" is simply the process of bringing together a product and a consumer. Trying to change the consumer's viewpoint (i.e. through advertising and pushy sales) is really not that effective. Just ask the people who produced the IBM PC Jr. Producing a product that meets the needs of the consumer is by far the more effective part of marketing.

Concerning the marketing of open source, I would like to add to your list of Things That Need to Happen this simple concept: it's the job of all Open Source advocates, every one of us, to be sensitive to the needs of the users, to listen to them carefully, and to address their needs even when we may not agree with them. Too often the sys admin or consultant begins the relationship by trying to dictate what's going to be done. (This is a habit of both the open source and Closed Source worlds, but the dictator meets less resistance when he pushes something familiar like Microsoft.)

So my point is this: when you advocate Open Source, you personally are the face of the movement. Start not by talking, but by listening. Meet challenges not with rules and force, but with caring and discussion, you'll have a much better chance of winning your users over to our side.

-miko

Vacation?

[Madd_Hatter]

Roblimo takes a "business trip" to FL in December to write a "story." Sure seems like a nice way to get a few days in the FL sun written off as a business expense...

What exactly is running on their servers?

[hirschma]

Perhaps I missed it, but what software is serving to all of those thin clients? Tarantella? I'd love to read about more details about what's happening on the server side of things.

Anyone got a link that really gets into detail on the server side?

jonathan

Re:What exactly is running on their servers?

[tbob419]

I believe it was Neoware that I saw when I was down there.

the complicated way to do a vacation ...

[timothy]

... is to maintain a residence in Florida and live down there in the sun for much of the year, which is what Roblimo does.

Of course, if he lived in the Dakotas, he'd probably write the same story more for the reason you're suggesting ;)

FL: low taxes, high sun, all the swampland you can eat.

timothy

Only to a certain degree..

[Steveftoth]

Yeah, the price will rise to $500 or whatever the current price is... but then it will drop because the supply will rise once they realize that everyone wants to switch.

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[woobieman29]

Where to start with this????

You are so very right that Linux has no flashy high dollar marketing suit at the forefront of it's push for popularity. I'd like to respectfully introduce you to a concept that you may just not have thought about yet. That is, most people that use/build/contribute to Linux really don't care if Joe SixPack uses Linux or not. People should use whatever OS they feel will work the best for them regardless of the opinion of others. Yes, I would like to have more attention from the game and app companies, and more Linux users would certainly help there. But like all the other Linux users that I know, I LIKE the fact that I can select an OS on it's merits instead of being lured in by the juvenile happy-mealish antics of the folks that brought us 'features' like an animated paper clip. Also, if you hadn't noticed yet, commercial development for Linux has been picking up at a quite nice clip lately, and it seems to be increasing exponentially. We're working on the games.......

As far as your concerns about the marketability of the three gurus that are at the forefront of open source today, these folks are responsible for the tools that millions of people use day in and day out. They BUILT them. I think it would be more than a little disrespectful to try and take away things that they have dedicated their lives to building and try to continue on with the products of their blood sweat and tears without giving them their proper respect. You can dislike these guys all you want (I personally have serious issues's with some of RMS's opinions) but you cannot disrespect any of them.....especially if you are posting ANONYMOUSLY.

DirectX??? I'm not really sure, but if you're so sure that it's needed step up and build it - this is how things are done with open source. I imagine that you might have a bit of a legal battle on your hands though, as I think that this is technology owned by Microsoft (not sure though - comments anyone?).

Focus groups. I agree with you on this one, at least partially. It would be supremely beneficial to most open source efforts if more usability testing was done by the largest group of people that could be managed. It would be helpful to have an extension to Sourceforge for testing like this, as long as it was up to the individual project leaders as to whether or not they actually want to go through with the effort of using it. Remember that these folks are building these projects on their time, and the extent of the impact that you can have on their projects is to suggest and advise, not to dictate.

In closing I feel that I should take this up a level and acknowledge that I am glad that you are trying to offer insight on how to improve things for open source. You are correct in your statements that not much has been done to promote the public image of Linux to the masses. Hopefully you will continue to read /. to keep abreast of what is going on here. I also wish to leave you with one final thought that might help you to understand a bit more of what I believe is the mindset of the average open source fan:

We do not want to build another Microsoft.

The world already has one of those.

We like the open source projects that we use because they offer a way of doing things that works better for us, with more flexibility and choice. And, (pay attention here, this part is important) if we are unsatisfied with the way things work out of the box, we can actually open up the hood and do something about it.

Thanks for your insights, it's good to hear from all sides. Next time however I suggest that you may be better served to refrain from posting anonymously - it tends to knock a few credibility points off by default.

MS Systems have to be upgraded anyway

[mikosullivan]

You've got an insightful point, but I still must disagree. Keep in mind that Microsoft builds planned obselescence into their systems, so most MS shops need to upgrade anyway. I work for the Rescue Mission of Roanoke, and as you can imagine we're not a rich organization. We desperately need to upgrade our old systems, and Linux is simply the cheaper and more cost-effective way to do it.

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[ShwAsasin]

The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP:

WRONG! This is the sort of distinct image Linux needs. I know many people with little computer knowledge who can easily point out Linux information on the net by seeing that nifty little penguin. Although it may not seem professional, why must things have a super-slick advertisement to be noticed and remembered?

4) Direct X - A MAJOR stumbling block on Linux's road to world domination is the lack of Direct X support for Linux:

DirectX isn't the only API's being used to create games. If the developer uses OpenGL, they can easily port their games to Linux using Mesa (an opengl clone). Plus Creative Labs/Loki released OpenAL a 3D Sound Library nearly on par with DirectSound/3D. If you use those two libraries you can have your game work in Win32, MacOS and Linux with minor changes needed for initialiazation. It's the Lazy developers who are the issues, not the OS. Games can be made for many OS's but is it worth the time/money to make them is the bigger question?

If Windows controls 95% of the computer desktop market, it could be hard to persuade the developers to move to Linux, especially when many advocates want things Free/OSS. However on the other hand, it does present a unique business opportunity for the right company to make money.

My personal philosophy is to make good software, have a cheap price, and give lots of features. Making software OSS is in the eyes the beholder. I don't believe in crippling copyrights, but fair ones for both sides. It is unfortunate that mega-corps don't see things this way.

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[Strange Ranger]

Troll=6?? Is today Hopeless-Hax0r-Kid moderator day or what? (linux r00lz! Down with $uit!) This guy is spot on. Informative and insightful. The focus group info is no joke. As long as the Linux community has such disdain for the business community (Troll=6!?) Microsoft has nothing to worry about.

How about we be adults and mod the parent post up instead of giving him the troll raspberries?


Side note: I do think the penguin could be the Linux "happy face" mascot, but a sleek professional looking logo is definitely needed as well.

the real revolution..

[spasm]

The article mentioned this almost as an aside, but as someone who works in government, the ability of these guys to purchase secondhand from ebay is truly revolutionary.

Hell, I can't even buy reconditioned palms with manufacturer warranty direct from palm - not only is palm not an "approved vendor" for purchasing palms from (go figure..), but our purchasing policies explicitly ban reconditioned or secondhand items. As for *ebay*..

Well done to Largo for giving these guys the ability to use a little flexibility and common sense.

Slashdot Interview?

[wrfink]

How about Slashdot interview the IT shop in Largo?

Re:Slashdot Interview?

[berniecase]

Not a bad idea. It sounds like they have the time...

Business continuance...

[Anonymous Coward]

aka -- what happens when Harold get's hit by a bus? Is everything documented? Are all procedures pick-up-able by a fresh body in the position?

This could be a beautiful system or a multi-million dollar bill waiting to happen for the City -- it's not a Linux issue or a MS issue it's a systems issue in general. More than 50% of the cost of a truly functional system are spent in making it understandable, reliable and usable. How much time/money has Largo spent on this?

Re:This is a Troll. Here is the proof.

[Strange Ranger]

Not sure I understand why posting it twice makes it a troll? Maybe it needs to be posted and re-posted until the message gets through / isn't modded down to hell?

Or
Maybe I'm missing something.

Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE

[crawdaddy]

Read above and see that this is in fact a troll that was posted to Slashdot in 2000.

Whats the big hoopla?

[malakai]

Seriously, this is a thin client environment. This is no different than most corporations pre 1994. Granted, the terminals are not black with green lettering, and no doubt less "iron" behind the scenes powering them, but the thin client desktop solution is well known, well documented. Of course their help-desk and sys admins will have orders of magnitude less calls then a similiar environment with full desktop OS in place running on-computer applications.

I think it's wonderful Largo is able to work with this model. Many corporations still use it in specific instances. I don't see it as revolutionary.

I would be worried somewhat if I was a Largo police officer and I had a thin client in my car that used a wirless service. This is pushing it. Maybe if I had redundant wirless coverage on multiple frequencies I'd feel less vulnerable. But to me, the police car is exactly the type of environment where you want an intelligent heavier client. One that can cache the last couple of inbound messages, cache the last lookup you did on a license plate, maybe also proactively download other information based on the information you searched for, so that in the event of an outage, you aren't s.o.l.

I found this quote unusual too:

"Mostly it was an issue of scalability," Dave says. This, not money, is what they told the Microsoft people their biggest barrier was. At any given moment, Largo's network may have over 200 people actively logged in and working, often more, and they are all running from a single main server, plus several servers that run specific applications. Even the Microsoft people couldn't refute the fact that Largo's current setup uses far less hardware and is far easier to administer and physically maintain than an equivalent Windows-based system.

This doesn't seem accurate in the least bit. I'm not sure why they simply don't say "look, it was about money". Because that I could believe.
Their network is run off two boxes, each dual-processor. One a ML370 and another a ML350. One's a dual 933 the other a dual 1ghz.

Now, using these boxes and assuming a gig of RAM at least (not specified in article), Terminal services or Citrix could have easily services 150-250 users on _each_ box. Granted, it depends on what they are doing (so called, light, medium, or heavy users).

I'm not saying Terminal Services, or Citrix would have been better. I'm glad their operations run as smoothly as they do. I just wish people would be honest and simply say "yeah, of course it was about the licensing fees". The reason they probably are not saying this, is I bet MS offered them free licenses to get them to switch, and they don't want their City Council hearing they could have had it all for free, but opted not to in a "fuck u" gesture to MS....

-malakai

Re:Whats the big hoopla?

[Todd Knarr]

I suspect they aren't using 802.11b or cellular for their wireless connection. Probably they're using a radio datalink on a dedicated channel in a band reserved for their use. Those tend to be much less susceptible to link-lossage.

As for as Terminal Services or Citrix, I've used both. Their performance does not measure up to X11 in a remote application, because X11 was designed for network connections while TS and Citrix were both grafted onto a system that assumed it was dealing with a physical screen. You can do a lot hooking into GDI, but in the end the system wasn't designed to support the application. Server performance isn't the bottleneck, it's the relatively low-bandwidth connection between the server and the client.

As for free license fees, sure they're free now. Is MS going to guarantee that all upgrades to all future versions will also be free? I doubt it, and there's the hook inside that tasty free-license bait. With Linux, the city's guaranteed that in 10 years their system will still be available without paying license fees or worrying about license bookkeeping to keep the BSA off their backs.

infectious?

[pr0nbot]

So have the people who work for Largo started to switch to Linux at home?

Re:Cops with terminals instead of PCs

[m1a1]

Right... because you have to have a pc with you to give a ticket? Now I am sure officers have been writing traffic tickets in this country for a long, long time. Long before the personal computer was ever even considered. Hell, Gates got one before Windows was even gleam in his eye.

This is my problem exactly - how to enable X?

[emil]

My friend got 20 of these when Montgomery Wards closed down - I think they're all NCD 200s. I've played with one, and I've seen an NCD-Linux HOWTO, but the HOWTO says that there is an X-Windows menu entry (along with Citrix ICA), but I see no such item.

How do I get X-Windows support enabled for a stand-alone NCD?

Re:This is my problem exactly - how to enable X?

[valisk]

Which version of X are you using X11 or Xfree86? I have a sneaking suspicion that X11 might be needed. However... the 200 series can use terminal emulation for X Windows: DEC VT, IBM TN3270e, IBM TN5250, Wyse 50/60, Tandem 6530.
Hope that helps :)

Re:This is a Troll. Here is the proof.

[molo]

Perhaps you should look closely at the URL. And other pages on that site, such as:

The /. troll HOWTO

-1 off topic

[gnalle]

I always browse slashdot at +2 in order to avoid lesser comments, but sometimes a comment like the parent to this post gets modded up to +4 for no apparent reason. Slashdot really needs a moderation reason named "correcting". This way poster the parent post can get his well earned karma, but I can avoid having to read the post. I want: "funny" -5, "correcting" -5 "redundant" -5, "off topic" -5, "Troll" -1

Re:Cops with terminals instead of PCs

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the cops in that town should switch from munching on donuts, to pringles? Then they can glue the empty cans all over their cars.

Clustered Application Server?

[nsandver-work]

First, this isn't your typical "imagine a beowulf cluster of these" troll. Also, I don't know much about Linux clustering, but...

What is the viability of using a cluster of moderately powerful workstations as an application server? If my limited understanding of OpenMosix, for example, is correct, your thin clients should be able to run an application from the cluster, have the cluster take care of the load balancing issues, and (ideally) ensure a positive experience for the users.

Does anyone else have thoughts on something like this?

Re:Clustered Application Server?

[TeknoHog]

CERN has x86 Linux workstations that form a cluster. I worked there in the summer 2001. They are real workstations, not thin clients -- mine was a dual P3 at 866 MHz. The clustering software was some proprietary or custom one, at least it wasn't Mosix or Beowulf. A workstation was disconnected from the cluster when you were logged in (which is why I had to quit running distributed.net clients on them :-).

Re:Clustered Application Server?

[fucksl4shd0t]

Offhand I'd have to say that you could run the risk of the network itself being the single point of failure. Centralizing everything on the servers does wonders for administration, but what happens when the router melts?

That, of course, is one of the reasons servers get duplicated. When the clients fail to hit one, they can hit the other, transparently, and without stopping their work to call the help desk.

The obvious solution in a clustered environment, of course, is to have redundant connections to the cluster, but the cluster itself still needs to be duplicated. Clusters typically run with a few (or one) routers, and you don't want that router to be the single point of failure either.

SO, after running several network connections to each of your clusters, what are the advantages over the existing dual-proc setup?

Depends. First there's hardware cost. Figure that a single, cheap 450mhz processor can probably easily serve 3-5 users (maybe more, I'm assuming they will all be using the OpenOffice suite, which slows the box down considerably), then you'd need a cluster with 100 such processors to serve 300 users.

Now, my math is almost certainly flawed. I see no reason why the 450mhz processor (which you can't buy anymore anyway) can't serve 20 people or more. Furthermore, you can get 800mhz Durons for $50. That means you can probly go up to 100 people served by a single motherboard. Now how many users do you need to serve? Also keep in mind that you have to put each processor on a motherboard.

The article indicates that there are two dual-proc servers handling all the users. A two-mobo cluster will not outperform a single dual-proc mobo, assuming equal processors and memory. The reason is simple and probly obvious. The cluster has to do its load-balancing and other chores across the PCI bus and through a Gigabit ethernet card and router. The real savings happen when you start putting 4+ together. Furthermore, you could cluster dual-proc mobo's, but then that's what you've already purchased, right?

If Lago ever grows to a metropolis, they could easily turn their servers into clusters to handle the additional load. They can easily add networking components to speed up the network. They probably don't need a cluster, but if it ever happens, they can *scale* to a cluster cheaply.

Re:Clustered Application Server?

[Daengbo]

OpenMosix on LTSP is quite easy to implement and there is even a How-To. I have done it myself. If you purchase thin clients as PCs with no local media, you end up with an overpowered client. The people on the mailing list all agree that it should help the server, but no one has seen or shown any hard numbers for this. Bottom line: if your network and clients are both underused, it can't hurt.
At home, I have seven clients which are all P133s (integrated everything for about US$17 each) and one server which is a duron 850 256 Mb RAM. I used to have a Celeron 550 Mosixed to it on a crossover, but the RAM failed, and I never really saw any peformance hit, so I didn't fix it.

I can't believe you missed the chance...

[SuperKendall]

to make at least some attempt at a joke out of using Lone-tar in Texas!

Something like "In Texath, we find we prefer to uth Lone-tar for backupth". Or something else actually funny.

Download garbage

[jbolden]

First of all, if you don't allow your employees to d/l and install garbage software from the net, and don't give them access to tweak and mess with drivers, you usually don't have trouble with 'tech support headaches'

One of the wonderful things about Unix boxes is that you can allow employees to download garbage software relatively safely. Because the desktops themselves are often "thin clients" they are essentially immune to problems. Because in a Unix applications themselves can only run with a user's permissions they can't do any more harm than the user could.

People get nailed all the time by NT problems and as a result the "lock down" solutions which make administration with reasonable help desk::employee ratios possible kill user freedom.

Re:Download garbage

[mpe]

One of the wonderful things about Unix boxes is that you can allow employees to download garbage software relatively safely.

"click and run" either of programs on websites or attached to emails simply dosn't tend to be supported with unix type systems.

People get nailed all the time by NT problems and as a result the "lock down" solutions which make administration with reasonable help desk::employee ratios possible kill user freedom.

Or they try do to this, but then discover that this breaks badly written pieces of software, thus can wind up having to give users all sorts of extra privileges...

Largo sure beats Pinellas Park or St. Pete

[moorewr]

I beg to differ dude; I work in St. Pete and I live in Largo. PI-nellas Park and Kenneth City fit the bill for a ghetto - wait, so does St. Pete. South of Central's quite the dump. :)

-Walter Moore
Eckerd College

K-12Linux

[MyHair]

why can't schools do this?

I can't believe no one's given you the K-12Linux link yet. It is based on The Linux Terminal Server Project and is customized for school use.

And what about the Largo users?

[meffie]

It would be interesting to have some of their perspective. What do they think of their Linux systems?

Thin clients

[Adam Wiggins]

The thin clients mention is a key point. It's not one that's going to most situations: in a small or medium sized office, you're probably going to want full workstations for workers. But there are other situations - kiosks, point of sale, terminals in a factory or warehouse - where the demand on the individual terminals is low but the chance of failure is high (due to the environment).

Re:Thin clients

[MrResistor]

in a small or medium sized office, you're probably going to want full workstations for workers.

Why?

Seriously, why do they need full workstations? In my experience, putting a hard drive on a users desk causes more problems than it solves, and most of them begin with the users saving important documents to their C drive instead of to the fileserver. The only reason for workers to have full workstations is if they're running a bloated OS, which isn't the situation in Largo.

IIRC...

[msobkow]

Plug in the power and ethernet. Turn on the power switch.

Configure your IP address or DHCP name into the NCD.

Possibly restart the NCD.

Right-mouse should bring up a local window manager menu, which should include telnet windows. Telnet to your target host, set the DISPLAY variable to "my.ip.add.ress:0.0", and launch an X application (e.g. xterm &).

That should let you use the built-in X11R4/R5 functionality.

Once that works, then you can futz with setting remote desktop manager sessions (which I've never had to set up nor have much use for. *g*)

BTW, what is the other poster talking about "X11" vs. "XFree86"? There are X11R3/4/5/6 protocol levels, but any compliant display for a given protocol level should function just fine for applications that don't need higher level compliance. XFree86 is just an implementation of X11R6 protocols, not something other than X11.

Re:IIRC...

[valisk]

Hey, hey I'm not that dumb ;) honest, I was thinking about X servers not X protocols, that the current Xfree release may not support that type of terminal but maybe X11 does. All the info I could find on google to do with that term mentioned X11.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins! NOT transferable

[ergo98]

uy Microsoft Server Products Retail !!!!!!!! Is this your advice? What an idiot you are?

Uh huh. Retail=Something other than OEM. It means "don't select the `Windows 2000 Server' radio button when ordering that new Dell Server". I'm including any licensing agreements with Microsoft in "retail". BTW: I'm not quite sure what your point is anyways- The cost different between OEM and retail is marginal, and between Software Assurance and retail is again marginal (indeed SA is often more expensive because it gives you multiple pieces of paper allowing you to run X number of the current software product, allowing you to upgrade as new versinos are released). Most organizations buy their licenses through a reseller consultant organization that keeps them current with their licensing needs.

If YOU the party of the first part, wants to remain legal with Microsoft, the party of the second part, NO server products are transferable from one machine to another under these 'special' licensing plans. ...and then...

All machines that a company buys from Dell have an OEM copy of a Microsoft product preinstalled.

No they don't. All of the client machines have a copy of a Microsoft product (depending upon the agreement that the VAR made with Microsoft), however the user chooses whether or not to add an OEM Server OS (and pays a hefty premium for doing so) to servers. Please feel free to confirm this (see http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp? customer_id=04&keycode=6W300&order_code=pe4600 ). You're grossly confusing client operating systems where there are restrictive licenses, with server licensing: They are two VASTLY different things. Server licenses generally work as a "you have 5 pieces of paper giving you Windows 2000 Server licenses, so you can have 5 servers operating at one time".

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins! NOT transferable

[ergo98]

What exactly are these links? The first two have to do with the conditions Dell imposes if a user opts to include an operating system, and the last links to a Microsoft text detailing the conditions regarding an OEM Desktop software installation for firms with a software licensing agreement with MS.

If not now, when

[drydiggins]

My employer is in the hole to the tune of USD$30,000,000,000. You might think that this would be a sensible time to think about OpenOffice, Samba, open-source DB's. On second thought, let's wait until things get really serious.

Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins! NOT transferable

[ergo98]

How many times are you going to keep reiterating what I've already said? This criteria license actually specifically states that it applies to desktop operating systems (it also applies to new PCs, but I'll ignore that for now). How many more links are you going to provide specifically saying that they have criteria for new PCs for desktop operating systems? You keep adding your own disclaimers that it applies to servers as well, but not only have you not proven this IT IS NOT TRUE. Server licenses do not restrict it to a specific machine unless it's OEM, and even then that doesn't preclude you from upgrading the computer.

You also seem to be missing the point on the licensing costs: Many of the volume plans actually cost as much or more than retail, however they have other benefits like software assurance (version guarantees, basically) or easier license tracking.

P.S. the reason Microsoft has the disclaimers on the OEM upgrade is because of powerful agreements that they have with most VARs that they will not sell PCs without a Microsoft OS (because truthfully about 98% of the time someone will then install a warez copy of Windows on it), and it would create a conflict of interest and undermine their efforts and agreements if there were dozens of customers asking vendors like Dell for no OS on a DESKTOP machine when they have an existing agreement with Microsoft.

Well..

[mindstrm]

Firstly, Mom doens't use a walker.

Secondly, we are talking about information gathering, not assault.

Last Post!

[alpg]

While the engineer developed his thesis, the director leaned over to
his assistant and whispered, "Did you ever hear of why the sea is salt?"
"Why the sea is salt?" whispered back the assistant. "What do you
mean?"
The director continued: "When I was a little kid, I heard the story of
`Why the sea is salt' many times, but I never thought it important until just
a moment ago. It's something like this: Formerly the sea was fresh water and
salt was rare and expensive. A miller received from a wizard a wonderful
machine that just ground salt out of itself all day long. At first the miller
thought himself the most fortunate man in the world, but soon all the villages
had salt to last them for centuries and still the machine kept on grinding
more salt. The miller had to move out of his house, he had to move off his
acres. At last he determined that he would sink the machine in the sea and
be rid of it. But the mill ground so fast that boat and miller and machine
were sunk together, and down below, the mill still went on grinding and that's
why the sea is salt."
"I don't get you," said the assistant.
-- Guy Endore, "Men of Iron"

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