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Largo Loving Linux
A little over a year ago, dot.kde.org and Newsforge did stories on the Linux-based systems being used in Largo, FL to run the city government. Roblimo went down there, drank their coffee, and wrote a follow-up piece which might be, but wasn't, entitled "How to be a sysadmin whose pager doesn't go off". (Newsforge is part of OSDN.)
I am a fan of creamed korn. Fat Wagina
Lots of Ls there, too!
Linux is loving Largo!
Man, this joke is getting old.
I might consider moving there someday :)
I read with interest about this news, but at the risk of veering away from the main topic (the web server) I wonder about the wisdom of taking an open-source approach.
Sure it may look good on paper, but I wonder if these guys have thought about the opinion of the general public of Open Source/GNU/Linux etc.
I have been involved in the marketing (dirty word I know!) of software and hardware to non-technical people for a number of years. The consultancy group I work for numbers many of America's top blue-chip electronics and software corporations among its clients, I have over 11 years experience of marketing, and 4 years experience of software development (VB) and systems administration (NT 3.51), in addition to a marketing science qualification from one of America's top business schools - so it's safe to say that I know what I am talking about when it comes to computers and marketing.
I have been keeping an eye this forum for quite some time now, as part of my daily intelligence gathering, I find the robust exchange of views, and technical arguments make an interesting diversion from some of the other corporate bullshit I have to deal with in my working day. I also read corporate intelligence reports from the Gartner group, Forrester, the Meta group, and Olsen Online Business Intelligence Services. Slashdot has often proved to be far more accurate when it comes to the technical details,and I am often amazed at the incredible levels of intelligence and insight shown by its readership, some of whom demonstrate a knowledge of Linux and Operating systems far in advance of anyone I have ever met, even in the IS department of major corporations. For this reason, I feel I should contribute my 2c to the debate about the future direction of Linux and the whole Open Source movement in general.
I feel I can do my bit for the Open Source community by offering (free of charge) some of my hard-earned knowledge straight from the bloody trenches at the front-line of tech-Marketing. Normally I would be paid over $4000/day for my perspective, but Slashdot - this one's on me. You people can think of it as my small and unworthy attempt to "give something back" to the Community.
Why Linux/Open Source has an image problem in major US Corporations and what the community can do about it. Like any movment, political or religious, Open Source/Linux has its Leaders, High priests and Gurus. These high profile individuals represent the public face of the organization. Like it or not, these people are associated with the product in the eyes of the buying public. One of the first things the Linux movement must do in order to gain acceptence by middle-America and Joe-and-Jean Sixpack and their 2.4 kids, is to develop what we in the Marketing profession call a "Happy Face".
When Joe Sixpack drives past a McDonald's, he associates it with the smiling face of Ronald McDonald the clown,and quality food served quickly. When he is choosing a collect-call company, the smiling face of Al Bundy (of TV's Married with Children) springs to mind, and when he thinks of fried chicken in large capacity bucket-like containers, it is the image of the happy-go-lucky avuncular Colonel with his associations of good old Southern hospitality that sticks in his memory. (In marketing terms this is known as a "positive association". Because the image puts the consumer into a "buying-receptive" mental state).
Linux/Open Source lacks any kind of "Happy Face". Now this in itself is not a problem, were it not for the fact that Linux has several extremely high-profile advocates who are the exact opposite of "Happy Faces" in that they invite negative associations into the consumers head and put him/her into a state known by Marketers as "passive-aggressive sales-message rejection" (In layman's terms they don't want to buy the product).
Now, I will not lower the tone of the debate by naming names. I will give a few brief profiles and community members will know who I am talking about.
In reverse order of harmfullness we have the laconic, dour nothern European. Not known for his sense of hunor, and with far too many nights spent coding when he should have been out partying he creates an image of Linux as the OS of choice for "friendless geeks who never got laid". (note - I do not subscribe to this viewpoint, but trust me some of my focus group members do).
Then we have the good old gun-toting libertarian self-proclaimed open source guru. Although M.R. studies show that 78% of PC owners show right-wing bias this person is too wacko and off-the scale for them. He alienates them, and in the worst case scares them that they risk being physically harmed if they don't agree with his fundamentalist libertarian "philosophy".
Finally we have a bearded Communist hippy. Do I need to say any more ?
So the normal consumer associates Linux with a sucicidal friendless nerd from some godforsaken corner of Northern Europe, a plainly insane right wing lunatic, and an "alternative lifestyle" Communist throwback to Woodstock with a facial hair problem. Is it any wonder that time after time, the message comes back from my focus groups that Linux is for wierdos ?
Here are a few example comments from a focus group session from Q3 1999 in response to a question about their attitudes to Linux and open source software, you'll get the general idea.
"Linux - that's that geek system right ?"
"I tried Linux but it was too hard for me to install, then that guy flamed me on the newsgroups"
"I don't want any Open Source software because it is written by communists and I am concerned about security"
"My boss says Linux was written by Communists and Gun-Nuts"
"Linux is used by Communists who hate capitalism and Microsoft"
"Open source software cannot be any good because it is written by college students and hackers."
"Linux is not compatible with my USB peripherals"
"I would like to try Linux but my buddies would think I was a Commie"
I could go on and on with these genuine responses, but I think I've illustrated my point well enough. Linux has a serious image problem.
What to do about it is more problematic. Open Source proponents and Linux advocates are fiercely independent and proud of their alternative stance. They see any form of marketing as "selling out to da man" or "not groking it" or becoming a "suit" Any mention of money or financial rewards is derided, and developers are supposed to be content with "Kudos" from the community. Whilst this might be ok at college, or if you are tremendously wealthy, it cuts no ice with Joe Sixpack who was raised on Microsoft and associates Bill's millions with the quality of the software his company puts out. From the focus group again:
"If Bill (Gates) is worth that much money he must make the best software in the world."
"Microsoft must know what they are doing - the whole world uses their software."
"The best programmers work for Microsoft - they have the most tech-savvy hackers there."
"Microsoft spend millions on their software I think it is the best in the world. (referring to IE5)
Again the message is clear: Microsoft is winning the hearts and minds not only of Joe Sixpack, but also Juan Sixpack in South America, Jean-Paul Sixpack in France, Jeroen Van der Sixpack in the Netherlands, Nkwele-Olamu Sixpack in West Africa, Mohammed-Al-Sixpack in Iran, Kulwant Chandrasekhera Sixpack in India, and Boris Sixpack in the Russian Federation.
Their message is powerful, international, and presented relentlessly with no internal bickering and bitching.
What can be done ?
There are no easy answers. The Linux/Open Source community has proved unwilling or unable to accept critisim (even constructive criticism such as this) gracefully, preferring to mount foul-languaged assaults on the personal integrity of anyone who steps out from the party line.
I offer no easy solutions, however here are a few pointers:
1) As a damage limitation exercise Linux/GNU should appoint itself a "Marketing Spokesperson". This person would be the "official face of Linux/GNU/Open Source". First and Foremost, they would wear an expensive suit, especially when talking to the press or when dealing with high-profile major corporation with deep pockets and $$$s to spend. I realise this is ridiculous from a technical perspective, but with my blend of tech-savvy and marketing exprience, I realize the importance of presentation over technical merit. It goes against the grain of the community, but if we are to become the next Microsoft (and why else would we be in this game if not to win it at all costs), we must fight them on our battleground, but with the same weapons they use against us.
2) The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP. Although it seemed "cute" and funny at the time, in the eyes of the corporate MIS department it just looks juvenile. Linux needs a new logo, preferably one of those kind of eliptical ones with a swoosh that in the eyes of the public can mean one thing: Hip and cool DOTCOM Corporation. The logo should be bland, yet robust, non-controversial yet ahead of the curve, and toned in serious businesslike colors such as gray, silver, and white. It should transcend culture and religion to be internationally recognized like the Coca-Cola image is all over the world.
3) Downplay RMS, Linus, ESR, etc. They are technicians with zero understanding of the general public, or of software consumers in general. Indeed many of them only write their program for themselves to "scratch an itch". This is hardly the way to gain public acceptance.
4) Direct X - A MAJOR stumbling block on Linux's road to world domination is the lack of Direct X support for Linux. This trivial omission means that most games will not run on Linux. Linux could gain 1000's of new games by simply implementing the DirectX api. This is a no-brainer. Kernel support for XML would be a big performance booster too in the B2B and B2C application area, and would make Linux buzzword compliant for XML.
5) Finally FOCUS GROUPS. Before you think about starting that new open-source project, (be it a new web browser like Mazola, or simply a new front-end for the cdplayer application) Get a focus group together. Use a few minutes of your non-tech-savvy friend's time. If you don't have any friends like that, try your folks, or your grandparents. Ask them what they would like to see in your new program. This way, you will gain "market perspective" on the likely acceptance of your product by the "normal people" of the world.
thank you for your time
Everything backed up... neat stacks of CAT5... no emergencies... no rushing...
Are we quite sure these guys are HUMAN sysadmins, not evil intergalactic sysadmins from Myronacia here to lure us all into their evil plot of low-stress jobs and a life of being eaten?
best web host ever
What does Hayasaka think of it.
"My God...It's full of ads!" -Fry, about the Internet, Futurama
First, there was a plan: how to bring together the different development groups at work? My boss said there was a sort of tension he thought could be eased by some social interaction. Not easy. Almost all of the different development groups despised each other, each thinking its "art" was more important and eloquent than the others'.
There was the kernel extension developer group, coding mostly in C and some PowerPC and x86 assembler. They worked on making our PCI board work with Linux, *BSD, Mac OS X, QNX, and Solaris. They worked "special hours," coming in at one and staying late, supposedly, until seven or eight at night. They enjoyed Jizz cola and had a penchant for ThinkGeek t-shirts and cracking jokes about Win32 API calls and the dreaded Blue Screen of Death.
We had XML developers too. They worked on our website, documentation formatting, and simple apps to configure the driver software. They used HTML, XSL, JavaScript, and a bit of Java. They typically dressed casually, drank coffee and tea, and liked to work straight from the spec: no "Learn XSL in 30 Days" books were to be found in their cubicle farm.
Then we had the guys who wrote full-out UNIX apps. These guys and the products they wrote had been acquired from another company, and were the source of most of the tension: they'd never really been integrated into our group except that they were physically present with the rest of us. They all had beards or mullets or long, unwashed hair. Many wore suspenders or the afore-mentioned ThinkGeek clothes; some even had Penguin tatooes or small C app code tattooed on them. Their cubicle farm was known for the bleating laughter that exploded when one of them found a "silly" bug on someone else's code, and for the rotten, fetid stench that could only be compared to three-day-old shit reeking from inside a rotting corpse's abdominal cavity.
So, in order to get the guys to "know each other" my boss had asked me to organize a during-hours, alcohol-friendly party. My ideas ranged from a keg or two to live entertainment, AKA strippers. But as to what to get them to actually talk to each other in a human manner I had no clue. So I let it go til the last minute and decided to let my inherent creativity mull it over in the back of my head.
When the day of the party had arrived, the catering company brought in a few trays of lunch meat, chicken, pizza, and side dishes, I had picked up the kegs (all four) from the local brewery, and the big-screen TV and DVD were set up ready to blast the Matrix into the eyes and ears of my co-workers. The eagerness in the the air was encouraging and I thought that loosening up and smiles going on even now were a good sign. I even saw some of the guys who'd known each other previously begin to bunch up, bringing along the co-workers they knew from everyday work.
The first thing everyone did was hit the food line, loading up their plates and grabbing a cup for beer to wash it down with. A few approached me and thanked me for the food; it seems appeasing the belly really did tame the beast. After a few minutes of silence and eating and a few second and third courses, they guys were ready to sit down and be entertained. After asking if anyone needed anything else before the movie started, the lights went out and the Matrix began playing. I heard a few enthusiastic comments and jokes being told.
About half-way through the movie I noticed a lot of the guys, especially from the UNIX app group, were getting up and presumably going to the restroom. No suprise, as the second keg was history by now and the third was probably half-way gone. I also noticed some of the guys bumping into things and stumbling. Alcohol's the social lubricant, eh? Well, not long after, my bladder beckoned and I answered. As I made my way to the restroom, I had a self-satisfied smile on my face: my little plan was working, my boss would be happy, and it might even a Christmas bonus or a promotion (even if in title only).
Well, as soon as I pushed the restroom door open, I knew something was wrong. The smell of vomit was pretty strong and I hoped that it'd only been the work of one guy. But the smell was so pungent! After standing at the urinal, waiting for the golden flow to commence, I stood in silence. It was then that I heard grunting. Listening intently for a few seconds, I hoped whoever was upchucking their beer and munchies wasn't leaving a huge mess for the cleanup crew. After pissing and still hearing the noise, I approached the stall the that moaning was coming from.
"Hey, you alright in there, man?" I asked cautiously.
I was met by silence for a moment. Then I heard a few grunts and concealed giggles. Something was up in there. It was then that I heard what sounded like crying and more moaning. What the fuck? I decided I needed to see what was going on. I didn't want this party to come crashing down around my ears. I pushed the door open hard and then gasped as I saw the most sordid, disgusting thing I'd ever seen in my life.
Standing on either side of the toilet were two if the UNIX app coders, their beards caked with vomit, their pants in puddles around ankles, with erect penises wagging in the air. Doubled over the toilet, his head nearly dunked in the swill, was one of the XML developers. His pants were also around his ankles and what appeared to be a combination of blood and semen were dripping from his torn, ragged anus. He was covered in vomit from head to toe, and he was crying hard into the toilet bowl, its echo an eerie accompaniment to the awful scene I was seeing but not believing.
They two Linux coders slowly turned and looked me straight in the eye, evil grins smeared across both of their bearded faces.
"What in Fuck's name are you doing!?" was all I could force out of my mouth. I still wasn't believing I was seeing this.
Saying nothing, both of the Linux coders rushed me. Being in such a tense state, I threw both of them off and made a break for the door. And the fucking thing wouldn't open. In the follow two seconds that seemed like an eternity, the door was pushed open my way and two more Linux coders came in. Upon seeing what was happening, they immediately grabbed me and were joined by the first two. I was trapped. Then the one guy, who was a dead-ringer for Rasputin, the mad Russian monk, gazed into my eyes and said in a feminine voice, "Looks like Mr. Party is gonna get a taste of the real action!" and cackled insanely.
Cold sweat spurted from the pores on my foreheads and cheeks as I was dragged by the four stinking, polluted hippies into the same stall their previous victim was in. Rasputin spoke again, excitement in his voice.
"Thanks for the pizza and beer, now it's time for the weeners and buns!"
Immediately the first two slogged their pants off and got down on their knees. The other two put there knees in my back and held me on top of the first victim, who now appeared to be unconscious. I heard their belts coming off and their zippers coming down, and some rustling around told me that their pants were coming down also. Then the first two started sucking off the other two, in what I could only call the most enthusiastic blowjobs I'd ever seen in my life. The moaning and slurping sounds turned my stomach and I retched. I could see why the first guy might have vomited.
Eventually Rasputin and his cohort started moaning more loudly, and one of them said "fifteen seconds." This was followed by a series of rapid-fire belching and burping that shook me up and down on the guy underneath me. After about fifteen seconds, all Hell broke loose. The two guys behind me started vomiting on the two guys fellating them and I saw cumshot shoot and mix with the vomit all over the two cocksuckers' faces. It was then that I almost lost. I finally did refund when the first two vile fluids were followed by streams of piss. I heard swallowing and dripping and I yacked all over their first victim's head.
Rasputin cried out like a little girl in ecstasy. "Oh god, I'd been waiting for that all night! This party fuckin' roxorz my coxor!"
Now it was my turn, it seemed, as all four started tearing my pants down. Chunks of vomit-piss-semen fell on my back and soaked through my t-shirt. It was reviling. I shuddered as I felt their cold, clammy hands in my ass-crack and a very indelicate reacharound on my ball-sack. At this point I had no idea who was doing what, and I was just praying that I'd wake up and realize I was drunk and dreaming a la nightmare.
Just then I heard the door boom open and my boss's voice fill the air. The stall door was open and he saw right away the turgid scene transpiring in front of him. His voice was immediately followed by two others, XML developers I knew, and they flew into the stall as best they could and began a fight to save my asshole. The poor guy underneath me had just woken up and started struggling and the extra weight of eight other bodies in the stall must have been suffocating.
"It'll be all right, buddy," I offered to him.
Within thirty seconds I was to my feet and was delivering the most heart-felt kicks to the guts of the rapist faggot Linux coders. Between me, my boss, and the two XML developers, we had the gang of four knocked out in a sloppy, excrement-filled pile of hairy body.
It's now been a month since this horrible incident and I am in regular therapy with a sexual abuse counselor. In response to the terrible outcome of this party, my boss toyed with the idea of selling the group off to another company, sans the four hippies who'd been fired and arrested. After considerable urging on my part, and very open ear from my boss, the whole group was dissolved and the Linux coders lost their jobs. Their product was delayed by a year as my boss began hiring a new development team. We'd found evidence that the whole group had been involved in the planning of the gang- bangs and that had it not been for us everyone would have had a "turn" in the stalls.
If there's one thing we learned from this tragedy is that Linux coders, users, and advocates are desperate cock-lusting homosexual faggots that can't be trusted in any situation, let alone a restroom setting. You've been warned.
On the positive side, though, the whole incident brought solidarity between the other groups in the company and I am now on schedule to get a huge Christmas package that not only includes a gigantic bonus but a month's worth of paid time off and a real promotion.
Considering that 40 out of the 50 U.S. states are experience severe budget shortfalls, a good way to get more bang for the buck is to consider switching to open sourced software. You have:
1) Front-end savings on licensing.(perhaps offset by re-training costs)
2) Savings on future licensing
3) Less tech support headaches and consequently less staffing requirements.
As the article illustrates, spending 1.3% off a municipal budget vs. 3% (or 4%) is a substantial savings. Bring that up to the state level and you are talking tens to hundreds of millions.
I won't even start talking about the Feds...
I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.
Even the Microsoft people couldn't refute the fact that Largo's current setup uses far less hardware and is far easier to administer and physically maintain than an equivalent Windows-based system.
Yay for Linux!
I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.
Seriously, good to see stuff like this. And in Florida of all places!
You are not the customer.
only tampon-sucking weenies like michael use linux. fucking asslickers. why, oh why dosen't somebody just run that spastic fuckstick michael over with a truck? is there no justice in this world? i mean, he's raped small boys, household pets, his sister, god knows who or what else. he carries around a baggie full of used tampons and sucks on them in public! for god's sake! can't someone stop him!!!!
That's why they call it "florida"
I went to check out the newsforge article and who do you think had an ad right in the middle of the article touting linux... The ad gurus at M$ strike again...
If i'm reading this right, the IT department of Largo is actually thinking about ways to save the taxpayers money instead of ways to spend it... If the rest of the country operated in such a fashion maybe we could pay our teachers better. Its interesting that they chose a thin linux client model, that seems to be the growing trend with IT departments (and they said linux was dying). Im pleasantly surprised that they managed to resist microsoft's pressure, as im sure they would have had nothing but issues with the CeMeNT model, and I think ill stop now because im rambling ;)
Israel == Terrorist State
KDE isn't useless. (Unlike in the rest of the world)
Then we looked at the crime rates for Central Florida. It's not all Disneyworld--in fact it's #1 and #2 in several categories for crime per capita.
There's a lot of poverty there, and poverty means crime (I'm not sure which one causes which.) Lots of people with their meth labs in their trailers, etc. Lots of drug runners coming through.
Look at this table. Each state has "Rate per 100,000 inhabitants" and you'll see what I mean. We decided to stay in Northern California, despite the 9.5% state income tax because the crime rate is much lower. And I don't care that my state government doesn't do Linux. I just care that 90% of my neighbors aren't on welfare, making meth, or both.
Best Buy can have you arrested
I'm glad a municipality has caught onto hitting eBay for quality used equipment, as Largo did according to the article. OSS, plus cheaper (and SLIGHTLY) older equipment can add up to huge cost savings. Hell, any .com that dies probably has enough server and networking hardware to outfit any small company. Municipalities need to make it easier for their IT managers to purchase items used (like from eBay) and quit limiting themsleves to purchasing contracts.
Roblimo went down there, drank their coffee, and wrote a follow-up piece...
Whatever.
mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.
Well, digitized cops are bad, but at least they're not proprietary digitized cops.....This is Slashdot. Duh.
Karma: Not Particularly Funny.
...this should be modded into oblivion because it has no fucking relevance to the article at all.
for Debian Does Dallas!
Seems He got real drunk one night and fell out of his guard tower
Roblimo went down there, drank their coffee, and wrote a follow-up piece which might be, but wasn't, entitled "How to be a sysadmin whose pager doesn't go off". (Newsforge is part of OSDN.)
Whatever.
They use the strengths of *nix, and this is just a good example of how good it can work.
I'm sure they have quality people behind this project, and not some pimple-faced 19 year old MCSE who plays Unreal 2003 when he's not making fun of his 'luser' co-workers.
burp!! This topic is full of crap!!! Who cares what Roblimo did? Taking a Linux-inspired vacation is about the lamest thing I've ever heard.
Filthy rotting yellowish-black shit stained teeth with breath that smells like pig vomit. Even rich parasites like the royal family have awful teeth, Why is that????
Oh, come on, guys. Did you actually think I was serious when I said all that stuff? God, that is so funny. I was totally kidding when I said I was an alcoholic. You didn't honestly believe all that stuff I said last night about "feeling like my life was whizzing out of control," did you? It was a joke. Haven't you ever heard of "humor" before?
Yes, I realize I said, "Please help me. I need help. Don't let me drink ever again." But you didn't actually fall for that, did you? I was drunk. I say all sorts of crazy things when I've had a few too many. Remember when I said, "Guys, we should drive up to my hometown and hang out sometime"? I didn't mean that, either. Or when I said, "We should all chip in and buy Dan a guitar for his birthday"? I sure didn't want to do that when I woke up this morning. And all that stuff about, "I need to enter some sort of program to get cleaned up"? Yeah, right.
I know, I know. You think it was a cry for help. I think I remember saying something about being at the end of my rope. I might've even said I have no one else to turn to--that you are my best friends and that I can't go to my family with something like this.
Okay, the truth is, I do need you guys... to party with me. Man, we were so hammered last night. God, that was fun. What time did we start? It was right after work, right? We went to McMurphy's Pub for a few and then to that Cuban restaurant and had that rum with dinner, and then a couple in the car on the way back to McMurphy's. What did I have, like, eight or nine drinks? More? Damn.
Then, as I recall, we were over at Don's place, and it was at Don's that I said, "I can't do this anymore, I just can't. I've got to stop, I'm ruining my life." And you guys actually took me seriously? Talk about gullible. The whole time, I was thinking, "Oooh, I'm getting these guys so good!"
You know what a prankster I can be. You know how I sometimes fall off my chair, just to be funny, as if I'm drunk enough to fall out of my chair. And, Matt, remember that time I hit on your wife at your wedding reception? I told her that any time she gets sick of being a married woman, she could come on over to my place for a little fun on the side and no one would have to know. I knew she'd go straight to you, furious. It was all a big joke for your benefit.
Are you still trying to talk to me about this? Can we please change the subject already? Huh? What's that? A piece of paper with my signature that says, "I will not drink for the next month"? Yeah, like I need a signed piece of paper to stop drinking. What I need is a signed piece of paper to stop joking around all the time.
I said I get the shakes if I don't have a drink in the morning? I really said that? And, let me guess, you fell for that one, too, hook, line, and sinker. Of course you did.
Hey, did I tell you I got a call from that AA person this morning? That was so hilarious last night, how we got on the phone and called the national hotline, and they gave us the name of someone from the local group, and we called him up at four in the morning. Man, I love phony phone calls.
True, I did cry. And, yes, I did go into the bathroom to talk to him, and I was in there for more than an hour, and I was sobbing. But I was crying because this guy was so unbelievably pitiful, falling for the old "I need help" routine.
What? I said I'd go to the AA meeting Tuesday? Yes, Sam, I probably did ask you to please drive me there out of fear that I wouldn't have the courage to go by myself. But what you obviously didn't see is that I was totally yanking your chain.
I don't get it. You're still not laughing. Dude, lighten up.
You know what? I think maybe I need to find some friends who understand my sense of humor. It's been great knowing you guys all these years, but I'm beginning to see that you're just a little too uptight for my taste.
Its worth noting that they are using NCD x-terminals. While buying used NCD equipment works well if you've already invested in their hardware, if you are setting up equipment from scratch, it is not an effective solution. NCD does not provide their drivers for download, and charges a fairly hefty amount of money for them, so if you want to set up x-terms at home, or at a small buisness, buy something else, unless you are already familiar with this.
Quite a few people seem to have picked these things up after the last article, not realizing how much of a pain it would be to get them running
There's nothing like a real networking operating system, with a robust TCP/IP stack and an efficient kernel to reduce costs...
then again my dad is the head tech for a county court system in California and he only buys contract boxes with Windows, all the while making fun of my Linux home network...
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
I'm the network admin for a city govt in Texas and we're looking *really close* at migrating all our NT servers and as many clients as possible to Linux. Our IT dept budget is only one half of one percent of the city's total municipal budget anyway so we're accustomed to having to get by on a shoestring budget. We were never given funding to upgrade (sic) from NT4 to W2K on the server side anyway. The only thing that's kept us from being able to move all our filesharing to Linux+Samba has been the lack of adequate backup software that can work with our big tape jukebox and backup open files and handle all the required scheduling and notification(like Veritas Backup Exec is doing for us)... and lack of an antivirus package that can scan files on the fly as they pass in and out thru Samba (like NAI's Netshield has been doing for us).
forgive me, becuase I'm not too up on the details of thin-client-hood (my assumptions are that its a lot like a mainframe, or that unix system that all the undergrads would use for their mail and programs. 5000 kids at once bringing a Challenge L to its knees...)
and its nice that they are careful and have a redundant system.
But I'm interested in their worst case scenario plans (more than just saying "well, our systems are redundant!") and what is the worst disaster they have had to deal with.
Sure, its cool that they have localized where all the problems are going to be (the servers) but when do they predict the "the network is too slow!" calls will start coming in?
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
This sound's great and all, and I am all for it, but it seems that one would need some pretty intellegent/knowledgable/creative IT's to get this running. For instance, using a thin client for the tablet PC. I could be wrong here, I hope I am.
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"Don't forget, Harold isn't getting paid by anyone except Largo taxpayers, and his job is to keep their IT expenses as low as he can while providing ever-better IT services to the city employees who use them to do their jobs. In light of this, Harold's comparative cost figures are probably at least as trustworthy as anyone's -- and lots more trustworthy than some."
Its good to finally see a TCO that is about as unbiased as you can get. Other than this I've not yet to see a TCO (either proclaiming Linux or Windows) that isn't slanted in some way to paid for by a OS supplier.
Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux. All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up. I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows. Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals hugh hardware savings.
I'd say linux is just icing on the cake, (and probably leads to more silent beepers and a couple less admins). Still, remember that this is a total implementation comparision between municipalities, not purely Windows vs. Linux.
Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
Like, even gayer than Linux developers.
GAY.
Okay..I've found the Linux nirvana.n a word: Wirex. Their Immunix server appliance software is the easiest server to set up I've ever seen. Yes I know that you geeks out there will look upon it with disdain, but the bottom line is that Joe Sixpack can figure how to configure this one! And yes, I know this is a shameless plug (and no, I have nothing to do with Wirex) but when you find something this good, you just gotta share it.
All of the sudden the city of Largo notices NCD thin clients jumped up in price on ebay... surely couldn't be slashdotting ebay now? could we?
Take that you gnome faggots! Largo (and 95% of the OSS users) KNOWS that gnome is a piece of SHIT! What killer app does it have? GIMP? Well gimp dosent need gnome and Kroupware will kick devolutions ass! Just wait until January when KDE 3.1 comes out! GNOME WILL DIE!
I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.
One of the real plusses of being UNIX savvy in general, and GNU/Linux/free software/open source savvy in particular, is that one actually often earns a better living than their Microsoftoid equivelents. Why? Because paying one knowledgable person who, in a GNU/Linux, *BSD, or *NIX shop can do the work that requires three or four MSCE's (assuming a modicum of competence on the MSCE's part, an assumption that is, as many here have pointed out repeatedly, is not one that is safe to make), 1.5 - 2 times the salary still translates into a tremendous human resources savings, and brings with it the added benefits of expertise, lower turnover, and attention to detail (and research) pointed out in this article.
If you are saving money because your staffing requirements are lower (in raw numbers of bodies), your licensing costs are lower, and your TCO costs are lower (all nearly always true with GNU/Linux or FreeBSD vs. Microsoft), you can pay a premium for really good people and have the benefits that brings along with tremendous savings.
Which is great for everyone, except shoddy admins who probably should find another line of work anyway. It is certainly great for those of us who know what we are doing and take pride in doing quality work for our clients/employers, and like to be rewarded in kind.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Give them what they want and nobody gets hurt? I've never actually heard anyone seriously propose that as a system of government before.
Shit, those sound like good reasons to move to Florida. Just tell me there are easy/cheap women there and I am sold.
Da, in Soviet Russia, thin client runs YOU!
Da, in Soviet Russia, server serves YOU!
This is an open source comment, the following is the source code:
Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
I read this two weeks ago on a classic troll website. The website is made up of nothing but trolls and this one was listed.
_ __ _
Well crafted Trolls I actually do not mind as long as they are humorous and well-written.
_______________________________________________
ACK
Using free software is yet another way by which the socialist collectivists can take advantage of the labor of the capable producers. There is nothing to cheer about when a government uses free software.
The people who write free that software have jobs too, and they have to pay taxes. Using someone's free program is one thing, but doing that while stealing a portion of his earnings, that is disgusting.
I'd recommend Cyrus IMAP with Postfix SMTP, run both in SSL (with SMTP AUTH) and point it all to an OpenLDAP backend. Put phpgroupware in for web-based access. In fact, everything you do should be using LDAP, preferably LDAP over SSL, since once you go LDAP you start seeing neat possibilities open up when it comes to offering single username & password everywhere..
If compatibility with Outlook is not an issue, this is the easiest and thriftiest way to get groupware functionality.
At this year's OSCON, everyone was saying that it is time for OS proponents to take a more active voice in government. I have heard, and believe, that local governments actually have a larger impact on our day-to-day lives than state and national government, so that is a good place to start.
I just forwarded the article to my local city government. It took only 1 minute.
Surely you mean "last millenium"?
So, did anyone else get a Microsoft ad in the Newsforge add space embedded in the article?
It's a conspiracy, I tell you!
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
appoint itself a "Marketing Spokesperson".
WTF do you think all the distros do?
The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.
Ah, yes. Goofy. Much like an apple with a bite out of it, or somesuch. Yes, I'm sure there are tons of IT people turning down Linux because they don't like the logo.
Downplay RMS, Linus, ESR, etc.
When a big IT department wants to buy Linux, they talk to Red Hat, not to the Linux Kernel Mailing List. This is not an issue.
DirectX
Oh, come on. I *know* you know about WINE.
Finally FOCUS GROUPS
Golly gee, that would be what Sun was doing with GNOME, wouldn't it? Or *any* of the big vendors do. Hmm...
May we never see th
I live in Belle Air Beach, which is about 5 min away from largo.... Weather is nice actually, rainy today though.... I moved here from New Mexico though so I guess any weather is better than New Mexico weather.... Good to see that they are using linux... Anyone know if Roblimo is still in town... Could go for a starbucks with him... :)
It's still worth it -- look at their savings -- that's including their salary. If you pay more to get one knowledgeable IT person and he saves you tons on software and hardware...that's a pretty good investment.
May we never see th
Primarily MS for the NOS, but there are SuSE Linux servers in use doing various things in more than one city department.
...that he is being a moron.
I was actually down there a few months ago, and I can say from a first had look at the place, that it's a very nice and neat setup. Even if you never worked on a thin client their setup was fast, easy and almost no learning curve. And being a somewhat of a "Windows guy" I have to admit that Linux is a viable choice for any organization.
In case anyone was doubtful over whether this post should get a -1 troll or not, i did a google search for:
"Here are a few example comments from a focus group session from Q3 1999 in response to a question about their attitudes to Linux and open source software"
A complete phrase like this should be unique if this article were original. It is not. There is an archive of the troll here, which was originally posted to slashdot on 6/25/2000:
http://www.spiralx.co.uk/texts/troll2.html
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
Hmmm. Usually your ilk post something like "Mac == gay"
I guess to some Windows users, everyone is gay.
Dave says "We're not anti-Microsoft."
That ruined the entire article, how did this get posted?
I've got to stop reading the articles before I post.
After having worked for a highschool IT dept for 3 years, and having dealt with a univsersity IT dept for 2 years, i have to ask: why can't schools do this?
My highschool regularly got grants for buying hardware, and would then proceed to spend $2000 per windows workstation, not including software (they didn't license until they got yelled at by M$). But, they wouldn't hire more then 1 IT guy for 250 workstations, so nothing ever worked.
Same at my university. Aside from all the departmental and faculty machines (~4500), there are about 1500 open-area machines for students. These are a mix of unix thin-clients running solaris, and wintel machines, most of which are outdated. They insist upon buying new NCD/Sun thin-clients, running solaris, or buying new Wintel machines running win2k. Yet these machines cost them $1500-$2000 a piece! And all the old unix clinets (~800) running solaris are super slow (5+ minutes to log in!). Explain to me why a city, with offices here,there, and everywhere, manages to run a linux-based thin-client network, while a university with a huge IT budget runs one that's too slow to use!
Considering the non-existant cost of "outdated" hardware in the marketplace, people would figure out that to run an office suite, web browser, and email, all you need is a P150!!!
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
(Newsforge is part of OSDN.)
;-)
And hence, receives a discounted rate for advertisting on the homepage!
If your corp or govt is wasting money by using
msft can we sue or do recalls.
Clearly it is gross negligence.
Have you actually tried to do this? LDAP is a nifty idea on paper, but implementing it is a royal waste of time, when a normal rdbms will do just fine. And believe me, I was on my way to the Utopia you described until I went to implement it.
True, the namespace has a lot of potential, and some apps support it quite well. But the schema and lack of tools put LDAP on my blacklist until further notice, at least for a small co'.
As for easiest and thriftiest groupware impl using the protocols you mentioned, try James (jakarta.apache.org) instead. It implements IMAP, SMTP and NNTP. And if you really are a glutten for punishment, it has an LDAP connector as well.
Plus there are PAM solutions which will use a database. These, I have not tried (yet).
You are checking your backups, aren't you?
make the choice to switch to thin clients attractive.
The model of thin client they are using only uses 19-25 watts of power. Compared to a standard PC which uses at least 150 watts, that is a huge power savings. True, the monitor uses about half the power, but that can be miminized if you also switch to a lcd.
Concerning the marketing of open source, I would like to add to your list of Things That Need to Happen this simple concept: it's the job of all Open Source advocates, every one of us, to be sensitive to the needs of the users, to listen to them carefully, and to address their needs even when we may not agree with them. Too often the sys admin or consultant begins the relationship by trying to dictate what's going to be done. (This is a habit of both the open source and Closed Source worlds, but the dictator meets less resistance when he pushes something familiar like Microsoft.)
So my point is this: when you advocate Open Source, you personally are the face of the movement. Start not by talking, but by listening. Meet challenges not with rules and force, but with caring and discussion, you'll have a much better chance of winning your users over to our side.
-miko
Miko O'Sullivan
Roblimo takes a "business trip" to FL in December to write a "story." Sure seems like a nice way to get a few days in the FL sun written off as a business expense...
Perhaps I missed it, but what software is serving to all of those thin clients? Tarantella? I'd love to read about more details about what's happening on the server side of things.
Anyone got a link that really gets into detail on the server side?
jonathan
... is to maintain a residence in Florida and live down there in the sun for much of the year, which is what Roblimo does.
;)
Of course, if he lived in the Dakotas, he'd probably write the same story more for the reason you're suggesting
FL: low taxes, high sun, all the swampland you can eat.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Yeah, the price will rise to $500 or whatever the current price is... but then it will drop because the supply will rise once they realize that everyone wants to switch.
You've got an insightful point, but I still must disagree. Keep in mind that Microsoft builds planned obselescence into their systems, so most MS shops need to upgrade anyway. I work for the Rescue Mission of Roanoke, and as you can imagine we're not a rich organization. We desperately need to upgrade our old systems, and Linux is simply the cheaper and more cost-effective way to do it.
Miko O'Sullivan
The article mentioned this almost as an aside, but as someone who works in government, the ability of these guys to purchase secondhand from ebay is truly revolutionary.
Hell, I can't even buy reconditioned palms with manufacturer warranty direct from palm - not only is palm not an "approved vendor" for purchasing palms from (go figure..), but our purchasing policies explicitly ban reconditioned or secondhand items. As for *ebay*..
Well done to Largo for giving these guys the ability to use a little flexibility and common sense.
How about Slashdot interview the IT shop in Largo?
Seriously, that's some funny s#it.
aka -- what happens when Harold get's hit by a bus? Is everything documented? Are all procedures pick-up-able by a fresh body in the position?
This could be a beautiful system or a multi-million dollar bill waiting to happen for the City -- it's not a Linux issue or a MS issue it's a systems issue in general. More than 50% of the cost of a truly functional system are spent in making it understandable, reliable and usable. How much time/money has Largo spent on this?
Elwood:
Man I haven't been pulled over in six months. I bet those cops have got SCMODS.
Jake:
SCMODS?
Elwood:
State, County, Municipal, Offender, Data, System.
The two officers return to Jake and Elwood's car
Officer Daniel:
Elwood we show your license currently under suspension. Step out of the car please.
Not sure I understand why posting it twice makes it a troll? Maybe it needs to be posted and re-posted until the message gets through / isn't modded down to hell?
Or
Maybe I'm missing something.
Operator, give me the number for 911!
I think it's wonderful Largo is able to work with this model. Many corporations still use it in specific instances. I don't see it as revolutionary.
I would be worried somewhat if I was a Largo police officer and I had a thin client in my car that used a wirless service. This is pushing it. Maybe if I had redundant wirless coverage on multiple frequencies I'd feel less vulnerable. But to me, the police car is exactly the type of environment where you want an intelligent heavier client. One that can cache the last couple of inbound messages, cache the last lookup you did on a license plate, maybe also proactively download other information based on the information you searched for, so that in the event of an outage, you aren't s.o.l.
I found this quote unusual too:
This doesn't seem accurate in the least bit. I'm not sure why they simply don't say "look, it was about money". Because that I could believe.
Their network is run off two boxes, each dual-processor. One a ML370 and another a ML350. One's a dual 933 the other a dual 1ghz.
Now, using these boxes and assuming a gig of RAM at least (not specified in article), Terminal services or Citrix could have easily services 150-250 users on _each_ box. Granted, it depends on what they are doing (so called, light, medium, or heavy users).
I'm not saying Terminal Services, or Citrix would have been better. I'm glad their operations run as smoothly as they do. I just wish people would be honest and simply say "yeah, of course it was about the licensing fees". The reason they probably are not saying this, is I bet MS offered them free licenses to get them to switch, and they don't want their City Council hearing they could have had it all for free, but opted not to in a "fuck u" gesture to MS....
-malakai
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
So have the people who work for Largo started to switch to Linux at home?
My friend got 20 of these when Montgomery Wards closed down - I think they're all NCD 200s. I've played with one, and I've seen an NCD-Linux HOWTO, but the HOWTO says that there is an X-Windows menu entry (along with Citrix ICA), but I see no such item.
How do I get X-Windows support enabled for a stand-alone NCD?
Perhaps you should look closely at the URL. And other pages on that site, such as:
/. troll HOWTO
The
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
I always browse slashdot at +2 in order to avoid lesser comments, but sometimes a comment like the parent to this post gets modded up to +4 for no apparent reason. Slashdot really needs a moderation reason named "correcting". This way poster the parent post can get his well earned karma, but I can avoid having to read the post. I want: "funny" -5, "correcting" -5 "redundant" -5, "off topic" -5, "Troll" -1
This article states that Largo is getting lower costs because they used Linux instead of Windows. Marketing FUD. The article clearly states that they've been purchasing their thin clients for between 50 cents and $5. Thin clients that normally cost $750. What a way to turn it around, boys.
Check out Lone-tar - this backup software is nothing short of amazing. Very configurable. I used this product way back on Xenix386, and it was very reliable.
If the "big tape jukebox" is a scsi/ide tape drive, it should work.
http://www.lone-tar.com/
Not sure about the antivirus, but doesn't seem complicated maybe you could write your own, or even better there's some open source prog. that does the same - check w/samba?
Ariel Sharon is a crime warrior!
First, this isn't your typical "imagine a beowulf cluster of these" troll. Also, I don't know much about Linux clustering, but...
What is the viability of using a cluster of moderately powerful workstations as an application server? If my limited understanding of OpenMosix, for example, is correct, your thin clients should be able to run an application from the cluster, have the cluster take care of the load balancing issues, and (ideally) ensure a positive experience for the users.
Does anyone else have thoughts on something like this?
to make at least some attempt at a joke out of using Lone-tar in Texas!
Something like "In Texath, we find we prefer to uth Lone-tar for backupth". Or something else actually funny.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
First of all, if you don't allow your employees to d/l and install garbage software from the net, and don't give them access to tweak and mess with drivers, you usually don't have trouble with 'tech support headaches'
One of the wonderful things about Unix boxes is that you can allow employees to download garbage software relatively safely. Because the desktops themselves are often "thin clients" they are essentially immune to problems. Because in a Unix applications themselves can only run with a user's permissions they can't do any more harm than the user could.
People get nailed all the time by NT problems and as a result the "lock down" solutions which make administration with reasonable help desk::employee ratios possible kill user freedom.
I beg to differ dude; I work in St. Pete and I live in Largo. PI-nellas Park and Kenneth City fit the bill for a ghetto - wait, so does St. Pete. South of Central's quite the dump. :)
-Walter Moore
Eckerd College
I actually got a call this morning from the Largo IT dept. about a desktop support position. I'm happy where I'm at doing Linux admin (would hate to step down and make less) but anyone in the area interested should call them.
...for violating the DMCA?
Oh, wait, this is FLORIDA. I mean, come on, they have voter fraud left and right; they're not going to give a pea-sized shit about something as dinky as intellectual copyright.
Whatever. Linux. W00t. Wee. Yay.
or other proprietary solutions. Any visual basic or ActiveX solution could be coded up and made usable on linux.
Who's the zealot? YOU sound like an IT guy that would force everyone to use Microsoft just so people could run Bonzi buddy.
I don't get it.
Is something funny about coffee or writing?
Or is there somethng to the "down there" phrase ?
I'm a big fan of linux, but supporting 100 concurrent users on a dual-1GHz server seems a lot. They're talking about moving to Openoffice - software that takes about a minute to load on my relatively new system. Can you really run have 100 thin clients, with say forty of them running OpenOffice, on a single dual-processor machine?
why can't schools do this?
I can't believe no one's given you the K-12Linux link yet. It is based on The Linux Terminal Server Project and is customized for school use.
Subsequent user loads will pop up MUCH faster.
less money.
count
no count.
This from the guy who had trouble setting up openSSH ???
You are truly a zealot.
looking into a MICROSOFT solution. Microsoft operating systems and applications will require very big machines and carry HUGE licensing costs. And to that the lovely viruses that pop up and destroy microsoft networks and you are looking at a pain in the butt. Largo is using a system similar to LTSP. Look into it. Learn something.
case in point - i locked myself out of my truck (i know it was stupid...) at 3am about 1/2 mile outside of the largo city limit and started walking to find gas station that was open so i could call a locksmith. since it was early sunday morning nothing was open and after about 30 minutes of walking i was able to flag down a (largo) police car. i explained to the officer my predicament and asked if he could give me a lift to a gas station or let me borrow his phone - to which he replied "this isn't my area" then he drove off.
i've had 2 other similarly unpleasant encounters with largo cops, but you get the point. i realize this is only marginally relevant, but just keep in mind that these guys are notorious for being pricks around here and they're probably not gonna show you their linux thin clients if you ask.
Well documented and overlooked. All in the name of some stupid whiz bang 'feature' that users can't live without.
I can't tell you how many days that we could have kept at 90 percent functionality if we had had a system like this instead of hyper powered system running a very popular OS that was regularly crippled by a virus.
LTSP thin client sitting on every desk in the enterprise with a second machine for people with a proven need running whatever proprietary app they need.
last a very very long time. Get familiar with LTSP and find a way to save your company a whole bunch of money.
It would be interesting to have some of their perspective. What do they think of their Linux systems?
The thin clients mention is a key point. It's not one that's going to most situations: in a small or medium sized office, you're probably going to want full workstations for workers. But there are other situations - kiosks, point of sale, terminals in a factory or warehouse - where the demand on the individual terminals is low but the chance of failure is high (due to the environment).
None of yer Hindus harmonizing in the hallways,
or Shintos shatterin' sheetglass in the shithouse.
Plug in the power and ethernet. Turn on the power switch.
Configure your IP address or DHCP name into the NCD.
Possibly restart the NCD.
Right-mouse should bring up a local window manager menu, which should include telnet windows. Telnet to your target host, set the DISPLAY variable to "my.ip.add.ress:0.0", and launch an X application (e.g. xterm &).
That should let you use the built-in X11R4/R5 functionality.
Once that works, then you can futz with setting remote desktop manager sessions (which I've never had to set up nor have much use for. *g*)
BTW, what is the other poster talking about "X11" vs. "XFree86"? There are X11R3/4/5/6 protocol levels, but any compliant display for a given protocol level should function just fine for applications that don't need higher level compliance. XFree86 is just an implementation of X11R6 protocols, not something other than X11.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
wow, both Largo and Katz in 1 month, even if you didn't like their work, you can't deny the contribution to popular culture. They will me missed.
Buy Microsoft Server Products Retail !!!!!!!! Is this your advice? What an idiot you are? You are advising that companies with 100s of machines, go out and TRY to buy enough MS Server products and licenses to satisfy the BSA, and all on the retail market. The 40,000 quote just became 200,000. NOONE buys MS Server products retail. NOONE. That means that every company of size buys MS server products through a 'special' MS licensing deal like Software Assurance. To cut to the chase on this little argument. If YOU the party of the first part, wants to remain legal with Microsoft, the party of the second part, NO server products are transferable from one machine to another under these 'special' licensing plans. So the party of the first part is definitely breaking the law when the party of the first part is using the cd of a microsoft server product on multiple machines.
Read up on Microsoft licensing before you start ranting.
All machines that a company buys from Dell have an OEM copy of a Microsoft product preinstalled. Under any licensing agreement a company might have with Microsoft, the Server software that might be installed over the OEM copy will be an UPGRADE.
We talked about this ad infinitum on OS News several months ago. It was bloody.
uy Microsoft Server Products Retail !!!!!!!! Is this your advice? What an idiot you are?
...and then...
? customer_id=04&keycode=6W300&order_code=pe4600 ). You're grossly confusing client operating systems where there are restrictive licenses, with server licensing: They are two VASTLY different things. Server licenses generally work as a "you have 5 pieces of paper giving you Windows 2000 Server licenses, so you can have 5 servers operating at one time".
Uh huh. Retail=Something other than OEM. It means "don't select the `Windows 2000 Server' radio button when ordering that new Dell Server". I'm including any licensing agreements with Microsoft in "retail". BTW: I'm not quite sure what your point is anyways- The cost different between OEM and retail is marginal, and between Software Assurance and retail is again marginal (indeed SA is often more expensive because it gives you multiple pieces of paper allowing you to run X number of the current software product, allowing you to upgrade as new versinos are released). Most organizations buy their licenses through a reseller consultant organization that keeps them current with their licensing needs.
If YOU the party of the first part, wants to remain legal with Microsoft, the party of the second part, NO server products are transferable from one machine to another under these 'special' licensing plans.
All machines that a company buys from Dell have an OEM copy of a Microsoft product preinstalled.
No they don't. All of the client machines have a copy of a Microsoft product (depending upon the agreement that the VAR made with Microsoft), however the user chooses whether or not to add an OEM Server OS (and pays a hefty premium for doing so) to servers. Please feel free to confirm this (see http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.asp
http://www.dell.com/us/en/gen/services/service_sin gle_factory.htm
THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT OF WORK ("SOW") WILL SUPPLEMENT THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF ANY APPLICABLE OVERRIDING SIGNED AGREEMENT BETWEEN CUSTOMER AND DELL (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, DELL'S STANDARD KEY CUSTOMER PURCHASE AGREEMENT) OR, IN THE ABSENCE OF SUCH AN AGREEMENT, DELL'S STANDARD INVOICE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SALE.
Service Overview
This service provides on-site internal and external inspection, installation, and testing of a Dell PowerEdge server by a Dell-certified field engineer and is a logical follow-on the Dell's custom factory integration services. The Server Installation service includes connection of the server into the customer's network, verification of the factory-installed network operating system (NOS) functionality, installation into a Dell-supported rack, print- queue set-up, diagnostics testing, establishment of five user logins, and establishment of user logins from up to five client workstations.
Summary of Customer Responsibilities/Notes:
The customer must place server in the immediate area in which the server is to be installed.
The customer must ensure that the required power outlets have been installed.
The customer must have IP address(es) available for the server being installed.
This service does not include installation of products nor application activity not specifically mentioned in this document.
This version of the service is to be used when the network operating system is factory-installed.
This document provides only an overview of the service steps and customer responsibilities.
This service will be provided during the hours of 8:00am to 6:00pm(local customer time), Monday through Friday, excluding holidays.
Specifications valid in US only and subject to change without notice.
Prior to the delivery of this service for systems being upgraded, the customer must take normal precautions to backup systems to safeguard against any accidental loss of data. Dell will have no liability for loss of data or computer programs.
Key Service Steps:
Unpack systems and components and inspect internal condition of the systems (cables attached, boards seated, no damage, etc.)
Install server into a previously assembled rack, if required.
Set-up and connect Dell peripherals (keyboard, monitor, mouse) to the server.
Verify proper firmware revisions and operating system functionality.
Boot factory-installed NOS.
If required, load NIC device drivers and protocol parameters into the operating system.
Verify connection to the customer's network.
Create five user logins on the server being installed.
Attach server to up to 5 client workstations and verify login capability.
Demonstrate to customer how to share drives and directories.
Set up one local printer for up to 5 workstations (if customer can provide printer drivers).
Brief customer on administrative procedures to add additional user accounts and network clients.
Assist customer with partitioning and utilization of remaining server space.
Remove all packaging to a customer-designated area within the facility.
Buy Online or Call: 1-800-WWW-DELL
Copyright 1999-2002 Dell Computer Corporation. For customers of the 50 United States only.
Site Terms of Use : Terms and Conditions of Sale : Dell's Privacy Policy : Battery Recall Information
http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/resources/os_ne wpc.asp
What exactly are these links? The first two have to do with the conditions Dell imposes if a user opts to include an operating system, and the last links to a Microsoft text detailing the conditions regarding an OEM Desktop software installation for firms with a software licensing agreement with MS.
Microsoft Operating System Licensing Guidelines for New PCs
July 9, 2002
All operating systems acquired through a Microsoft® volume licensing program require that a licensed desktop operating system already exists and was installed by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) that built the PC. The operating system licenses offered from a volume licensing program are upgrades only. This means that any operating system license acquired from an Open License, Select License, or Enterprise Agreement will be only an upgrade and can be installed only on a PC that came from the OEM with an operating system already installed. PCs that did not have an operating system installed when purchased will not qualify for a volume license operating system license.
Volume Licensing Media Restrictions
If you have an Open License, Select License, or Enterprise Agreement, you cannot use your volume licensing media to install a Microsoft desktop operating system on a PC that does not already have a desktop operating system installed. The media that is used with volume licensing programs is the upgrade version only and cannot be installed on a PC that does not already have an OEM-installed desktop operating system.
If you own a PC that does not have an existing full-version desktop operating system installed, you need to purchase a retail packaged product (FPP) full-version operating system rather than using volume licensing media.
----------------
Read it and weep.
Straight from the horses mouth.
If YOU want to remain on the good side of the BSA you had better order computers, client or SERVERS, from dell with an OS preinstalled. That is IF you want to use volume licensing. If a major company decides to skip volume licensing, they will find the price of MS Servers to be quite extravagant, wouldn't you say.
http://www.microsoft.com/licensing,,,,
Yes I am ranting. But I am constantly amazed at how little even experienced microsoft techs really know about microsoft licensing.
-Server products are included under the volume licensing rules.
-Microsoft considers so-called naked pcs to be illegal. Desktop or Server. Remember that any and all naked pcs are avenues for piracy, as far as microsoft is concerned.
-Media acquired under a volume licensing program contains operating systems that are considered by microsoft to be UPGRADE versions only. If the operating systems(desktop or server) are an upgrade versions, then the PC bought from an OEM must have an OS preinstalled, or YOU will be violating your license with microsoft. Desktop or Server.
That is if you 'want' to remain legal. Frankly I couldn't care less about your legal status.
My employer is in the hole to the tune of USD$30,000,000,000. You might think that this would be a sensible time to think about OpenOffice, Samba, open-source DB's. On second thought, let's wait until things get really serious.
How many times are you going to keep reiterating what I've already said? This criteria license actually specifically states that it applies to desktop operating systems (it also applies to new PCs, but I'll ignore that for now). How many more links are you going to provide specifically saying that they have criteria for new PCs for desktop operating systems? You keep adding your own disclaimers that it applies to servers as well, but not only have you not proven this IT IS NOT TRUE. Server licenses do not restrict it to a specific machine unless it's OEM, and even then that doesn't preclude you from upgrading the computer.
You also seem to be missing the point on the licensing costs: Many of the volume plans actually cost as much or more than retail, however they have other benefits like software assurance (version guarantees, basically) or easier license tracking.
P.S. the reason Microsoft has the disclaimers on the OEM upgrade is because of powerful agreements that they have with most VARs that they will not sell PCs without a Microsoft OS (because truthfully about 98% of the time someone will then install a warez copy of Windows on it), and it would create a conflict of interest and undermine their efforts and agreements if there were dozens of customers asking vendors like Dell for no OS on a DESKTOP machine when they have an existing agreement with Microsoft.
You are going to have to show where exactly on a microsoft site that they state that server operating systems are excluded from the volume licensing programs. From everything I can find on microsofts site, Server operating systems ARE under the same regulations as desktop OSs, as might be construed by the statement in a previous link that states 'ALL operating systems..' Listing a link to a dell is not enough. As you will find if you actually look on the MS site, starting on the W2k server link, and following on throught the 'pricing and licensing' links, server operating systems , like it or not, are under the same rules as desktops, when a company has a volume license.
Maybe I am mistaken on the cost and if so thanks for enduring this tirade.
'...excluded from volume licensing program' rules on installing on multiple pcs and on naked pcs.
my bad.
Firstly, Mom doens't use a walker.
Secondly, we are talking about information gathering, not assault.
While the engineer developed his thesis, the director leaned over to
his assistant and whispered, "Did you ever hear of why the sea is salt?"
"Why the sea is salt?" whispered back the assistant. "What do you
mean?"
The director continued: "When I was a little kid, I heard the story of
`Why the sea is salt' many times, but I never thought it important until just
a moment ago. It's something like this: Formerly the sea was fresh water and
salt was rare and expensive. A miller received from a wizard a wonderful
machine that just ground salt out of itself all day long. At first the miller
thought himself the most fortunate man in the world, but soon all the villages
had salt to last them for centuries and still the machine kept on grinding
more salt. The miller had to move out of his house, he had to move off his
acres. At last he determined that he would sink the machine in the sea and
be rid of it. But the mill ground so fast that boat and miller and machine
were sunk together, and down below, the mill still went on grinding and that's
why the sea is salt."
"I don't get you," said the assistant.
-- Guy Endore, "Men of Iron"
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