Slashdot Mirror
Fast CD-R Drives Make For Twice the Piracy
Bowie J. Poag notes this Register story about an RIAA copyright infringement bust in New York. The RIAA claims the operation had the equivalent of 421 CD-burners, which, translated from RIAA-speak, means "156 CD-burners but some of them were fast". How they expect anyone to take their statistics seriously is beyond me.
...does that mean I have half a cd burner?
This is the equivilant of 40 first posts, isn't it?
If we pirate 1,000 songs but all of them were crap, we're innocent?
that gave us 2002-1900 = 100th Anniversary of Quantum Physics
Fsck the millennium, we want it now.
Millennium Crisis Line: 0890 900 2000 [calls cost 50p/min]
Sex - Find It
not the individual consumers. Not that individual consumers are pirating cd's any less, but these are the guys you can catch outright without creating new laws that restrict our rights.
How they expect anyone to take their statistics seriously is beyond me.
Who, the RIAA's or The Register's?
(ba-dum-bum-cha!)
sin(6cos(r)+5A)
It is mathematics like this that allow companies such as Worldcom and Enron to cook their books.
...All I can say is that my life is pretty strange...
So does this mean that if I pay twice as much as I should for a CD (as we all do with the industry's fixed pricing) that I've really bought the equivalent of two CD's?
What you are missing is that these silly statistics aren't designed for the general public--they are designed for POLITICIANS.
The **AA doesn't give a damn what the general public thinks--this is all PR for bought-and-paid-for politicians. The lobbyists will show up, wave around these silly statistics, flash some money and boom! suddenly there will be more laws/levies/taxes on recordable media faster than you can type 'cdrecord'.
In accordance with the RIAA logic, I can now beat any speeding ticket by claiming to have the equivalent of more than one car! For example, if I were busted doing 60 in a 20, I can claim I have three cars. After all, it's 3x faster than the average driver travels through such a zone. Stands to reason that I simply have the equivalent of 3 cars driving at a legal speed and therefore I am innocent.
Yeah... I think that'll work...
Would someone PLEASE bust them for lying. I can't even consider this "spin doctoring." You can't make a claim with any amount of seriousness that a "fast" cd writer is the equivalent of two or more "average speed" drives. I can't decide which is worse: Scientology or the RIAA.
So now if I gnutella on a T3 am I suddenly stealing 28x the music because it's "really fast"?!
Just another sign of these idiots' attempts to ignore the progress of technology out of sheer stupidity and too much laziness to develop new business models that embrace it.
They have 800 CD burners, but most of them are slow.
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
Did you read what the [*] referenced?
*Bootnote: In fact the task of talking into one's sleeve at a press conference only came 28 years after the Service was founded in 1865, to combat counterfeiting. Back then, there was no FBI, or equivalent federal agency, and the Presidential protection role was formalized in 1913.
Actually the Secret Service has 3 very specific jobs. One of those jobs is to bodyguard and protect important people. That is the most commonly seen job. Their second job is cathing people who counterfeit money. Their third job is catching h4x0rz and pirates.
If you are a computer criminal, depending on the exact circumstances of your offense you will either be visited by customs, secret service, FBI, or local police.
As for this whole 156=421 thing. Does this mean I can sell my burner on ebay? It's pretty fast can I say 2 CD burners! only takes up one drive bay!
There's nothing wrong with burning CDs for personal/fair use. However, despite the number of burner discrepancy, this was an actualy piracy operation. It's not only illegal but not right. People like that should get busted.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
As you should now be able to see, none of this applies to any of the CDs which were being burned at higher than average speed.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
Sure it is, and I agree 100% -- but when they try to pull this kind of crap with the numbers, they are losing even *more* credibility among the tech-savvy crowd (if that's possible).
If they keep this stuff up, eventually everything they do will be dismissed as wrong -- no one will even bother to look for the merits.
As much as I respect Disraeli (beyond this very famous phrase), I think these are not even statistics. The RIAA just looks like a bunch of fucking morons.
Sorry for the language.
Sigged!
Doesn't add up. RIAA's math skills should be used to power interstellar space ships.
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
These kinds of busts of people who willfully infringe on copyright is the kind of activity that the RIAA should be using, instead of attempting to encumber everyone's computers, regardless of the guilt of the computer user.
When the HRAA (home recording rights act) was passed, it set a dangerous precedent of being presumed guilty. No matter how one wished to use home stereo equipment which can copy audio digitally, one was treated like a media pirate.
For example, when I was burning a CD of my own music (which I own the copyright on) two years ago, I was not allowed to make a digital copy of one of my songs to the new CD. What happened was that a flag saying the song was a copy was set; my CD recorder does not allow me to make digital copies of copies. It assumes that all such activity is piracy, even though I use this equipment to make copies of my own songs.
In addition, the CD player forces me to pay extra for CD blanks because it assumes that my activities are copyright infringment activities. In other words, I have to pay the media companies royalties for the privledge of copying my own music. Fortunatly , there is a bug in the firmware which allows me to work around this issue and use far more inexpensive "computer" CDR blanks.
The RIAA and MPAA are trying to cripple computers in a similar manner, which such abominations as the SSSCA. They should stop treating honest computer users like criminials and start persecuting people who willfully engage in piracy.
People who do not think piracy is a problem are mainly in the US, where it is not the kind of problem it is in other countries. In México, for example, one can hardly walk down a street in a shopping district without noticing stands where people sell burned copies of music CDs, complete with inkjet printouts of the cover art for the CD. These kinds of sales do hurt the profits of the RIAA. Obviously not to the extent that every person who buys a burned copy is someone who would have bought a legitimate copy otherwise, but certaintly to a lesser extent.
The people who willfully pirate music and movies need to be persecuted to the fullest extent of the law; I will go so far as to say that the law needs to be set up to make persecuting these people easier. But only the guilty should be punsished; methods for duplicating and distributing music and movies, which are very helpful for promoting independent artists, should not be crippled by the media companies.
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
I thought this sort of math was only applied to drug busts.
"We estimate the marijuana had a street value of 4.5 million dollars."
(Yes, if you sold it one eighth at a time to desperate, confused rich people.)
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
A man who fucks for 15 minutes before delivering the cream to the woman, result in a baby.
Therefor, a man who fucks for 5 minutes before delivering the cream to the woman, must result in triplets.
Of course, we're just talking about successful cases here... and I don't want to think about the poor guys who comes after 30 seconds...
Holy obfuscation Flying-Mammal-Man!
;-)
First, congrats to the RIAA for shutting down a real piracy operation. However, if they wanted to get the idea across without messing with the facts, why didn't they say something like "...able to churn out X CDs a day..."? They obviously went through the trouble of doing some sort of calculation to come with that 156 burners = 421 average burners, why not put it in real world terms? Shouldn't be too hard to come up with really big numbers like:
(x_burners)(average_CD_burnt_per_minute)*24*60
Lets say average_CD_burnt_per_minute (aka burn rate) of a 20x burner burning a 70-minute CD is:
20/70min = 0.286 CD/min
You have a fascility churning out:
156*0.286*24*60 = 64,247 CDs/day
Now isn't that a much more impressive number? (assuming I've got me numbers correct; my brain only half-works on Sundays, which is how I average more than a whole brain during the week
--The more you know, the less you know.
why exactly is copying bad?
because it is illegal?
because the music industry makes less money?
because we won't have as nice music if the music industry struggles?
because someone is making money doing things that are illegal?
I have come to the point in my life where (right and wrong) and (legal
and illegal) are now completely separate, and surprisingly, not even
aligned completely.
Should we have laws that support a bloated industry that controls
access to information -- simply because they have existed in the past
and have enough money to have laws passed that perpetuate their
existence? I think not. after the repeal of some law in 1996 that
limited media channels to 40 stations, clearchannel now owns like 1400
stations (estimate) and have has one of the top 4 stations in like 90%
of all metropolitan areas. One source.
In fact, I think people like music, and people will always make nice
music and it will be available. we have the ability to make it
happen. simply fuck the money part. for all of you who start jumping
on me about how naive that idea is -- ask yourself first how much you
depend on the 'current context' of "it's just the way things work now"
to judge that idea.
However: regardless of legality, should we even have a centralized
organization that, in effect, makes decisions about what music is
popular and available, and at what price? I think not.
And if you think about it long enough -- and this one will draw flak
I'm sure -- I've also come full circle on the social contract for
intellectual property. In most cases, the contract is no longer
helpful to society, it's just benefitting the ip holders. In effect,
without much explanation here, I conclude we should scrap/eliminate
the majority of our IP protections, or at least change them
significantly.
If people are interested I'd be glad to share my views on why IP has
come so far its generals bad -- but that is much longer post.
As for my initial question -- I reject ALL of my hypothetical
answers. In fact, if you go even a very little bit outside our current
context, it's pretty easy to see that copying is NOT bad at all, at
least in the (right and wrong) sense.
Glad I did, they are awesome.
Are you serious?
mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
The Secret Service, we naively presumed, was employed to protect high-ranking elected officials.
This is the big problem with Federal law enforcement -- there's so many different law enforcement arms, and few of them like to cooperate with the others. I heard on NPR that they want to form yet another to combat terrorism! Why not have:
(1) FBI -- Enforce federal criminal statutes, including counterfeiting and narcotics, as well as felon apprehension. This gets rid of the DEA, the non-protective Secret Service roles and the Marshalls Service. Essentially focuses on criminal acts comitted in the United States.
(2) Homeland security. Immigration, border security, customs, counter-terrorism, counter-espionage and government protection, including Presidential Security. Eliminates border patrol, customs service, and the rest of the Secret Service function. Essentially focuses on crimes involving extra-national activities and government security.
The constitutional standards for (1), which would mostly involve US citizens, could then be kept higher without a risk to national security.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The curious thing is that they could have come up with a completely legit figure: the production capacity of the operation in terms of some number of copies per unit of time (say, discs per day) based on the speeds of the burners and perhaps loading/latency issues.
Why would they issue some half-assed stat like the one given when they could have done this?
Two answers:
1) They're not competent enough to do that
2) They are, but have a motive that precludes them from presenting a clear picture.
It's alot like the Iraq isssue. I've read convincing arguments for an Iraqi invasion from German Marxists... and the stuff our right-wing hawkish administration presents "has a certain syrup, but just doesn't pour." (Gertrude Stein phrase, I believe). Why is it so hard to make a convincing case when there's a convincing case to be made? I think it's the wrong motives. They keep even otherwise adequately intelligent people from seeing the obvious.
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
does MP3/P2P equal (1.5M)/P ?
These are the same "statisticians" who think that the continual seizing of multimillions of dollars worth of drugs ("street value" of course) equates somehow to "winning the war on drugs." The RIAA's logic assumes that there is an infinite demand for pirated CDs and that, therefore, any increase in speed of reproduction equates to an increase in sales. No wonder, is it not, that they can't wrap their brains around the idea of increased sales through increased exposure? These characters cannot grasp the very simplest concepts of economics. Would anyone wish to speculate on whether this results from a perspective hatched in the very nest of monopoly conditions?
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
And those three individuals were actually fifty four guys but they have rights equivalent of three normal citizens.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
Hilary Rosen is the equivalent of 22 regular greedy corporate whores
Yes, but the story here is that the RIAA would rather charge them with having more CD burners than they actually did, rather than charge then with distributing n pirated CDs.
CD burners are not a unit by which you can measure piracy, nevermind inflated "equal to" units of CD burners. The RIAA's purpose was to put the confusing math in the press release, so that hopefully dumb reporters would report that they had "over 400 CD burners" in their operation, rather than print the rather unimpressive number of CDs they distributed.
...at midway through a burn, is your cd half empty or half full? If you are burning it in an empty house, and the burn hoses up, and you scream, does anybody hear? Honestly, I think those RIAA folks are doing the more of the good drugs their talent does.
Maybe they should measure an operation based on something that is actually illegal...like, say, illegally copied CDs. The number of CD burners is about as relevant as the number of orange peels in their garbage can.
It's logic like that that allows the DEA to prosecute people for playing techno music and selling bottled water (something the DEA has officially classified as "Drug Paraphernalia")
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
I know everyone hates statistics, but that's not really the issue here -- it's basic arithmetic. I mean, they can't add and multiply properly, either by accident or design, but as soon as they're caught at it they undermine their already limited credibility.
:)
... anyone have a cite? The biggest problem is estimating the returns from schemes that have never been tried. In other words -- statistics and, worse, speculation.
This reminds me of virtually any tax debate in Congress, excpet there it is at least partly statistics -- trying to extrapolate from known values and economic relationships to determine future revenue. WIth the RIAA, at least in the present example, we see simple nonsense. Of course, this sould be the work of the PR people, a group not known for math skills.
As for "the idea of increased sales through increased exposure" that's a matter for speculation, and a decision I feel that is wholly up to sellers to determine, not the consumer. I imagine the relationship of publicity (earned at the sacrifice of some profits) to ultimate profits (the number they really care about -- not sales) is a curve of some sort, with diminishing returns beyond a certain point of giveaway music. More efficient piracy will not advance the game, rather it may give the beneficiaries an added sense of entitlement, and reduced obligation to pay the big bad record labels for anything. This is not so much civil disobedience as yielding to temptation while feeling justified for just desserts or educating the greedbags.
On the publicity point, recall that Napster and P2P are pull not push mechanisms; you have to request what you want, thus you already know something about it and probably like it. This is less likely to spur sales than push, where the studios would promote music that is not yet established, and which they believe need promotion.
Someone MUST have done a decent study of this question
As an ethical matter marketing should be left to the sellers, with input from consumers but not pressure in the form of piracy. They have a right to be stupid; we do not have a right to coerce. If I were the seller, losing music to piracy would not immediately dispose me to start giving "samples" away for free -- I might go the RIAA route, even if it were illogical. Psychologically, it has to be a decision they feel they made on their own, or that upstarts demonstrate to be viable. Also, if the sellers can make more money not giving out free music, I can't blame them for a second.
We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry
If the RIAA fudged the numbers on the count of burners seized, they could very well have fudged the numbers on the seized media count.
Perhaps the "35,000" CD's that were recovered were really 32,500 700MB CD's, but since they have a greater capacity, they "qualify" as being 35,000 650MB CD's.
Good and bad need to be quantified. They're inarticulate words for such maters. Let's substitute those for moral and amoral. Let's also consider "copying" to mean "propogating of idea or art", as this is the subject being discussed. We'll also ignore the fact that every action a computer takes is a copy.
Immediately with this defintion, most slashdotters will think "copying is good!" The reasoning is that all sciences and arts benefit when their practicioners are exposed to new ideas. Programmers and engineers are intimate with this notion, as their occupations firmly rooted in and built upon the idea. The paradoxal result is that value is attributed to information; information becomes valuable. These are seperate things.
So, here we have the two sides of the coin: Scientists and Artists can further their crafts by being exposed to new works. On the other side, the copyright side, Science and Art is furthered when its practicioners are given incentive to create and explore. Copyright, and Copyleft; Only one of them has federal backing.
The copyright side says that any copying diminishes the incentive to create new works. The RIAA says this penalize artists and society, but the RIAA also calls decreasing profit growth rates (market saturation) a loss. The first part is true, but only some times.
And there is your answer. Copying is "bad" as long as it removes the incentive to create new works. The great divide is between the letter and spirit of the law. The letter leaves interpretation open that the incentive for new works should come from the author, while the spirit is simply that "new works" be incented (not a Bushism). Progress is the spirit, and the spirit doesn't give a damn about ancestral authors, so long as they are given their due.
Society always builds on the works that came before. Cultural progress is retarded when access to previous works is restrained. Because these new works are built upon previous works, they compete with the ancestral work. Because this competition diminishes the author's incentive over time, the past always tries to control the future.
I feel this is evidence of a strong imbalance in the current system. The drive for survival is normal, but when it is given force over the struggling newborn, something is sick. Free societies must restrain the past from controlling the future.
I'm as mimsy as the next borogove but your mome raths are completely outgrabe.
Woof!
(I know. It's bad. I'm sorry.)
Ed R.Zahurak
You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.