Escape from California?

An anonymous reader asks: "Is there any escape from California? I'm a very experienced software engineer (7+ years) with a MSEE and lots of great work experience. Even in this market, jobs in CA are easy to grab if I want them. Trouble is, I don't want to live here anymore. Six figures in Northern CA gets mostly pissed away on a mortgage for a house that isn't worth half that anywhere else, and I'm pretty much just waiting for the earthquake to hit and wipe it out. I'd love to move to the midwest, but decent software jobs seem to not exist. I'm more than willing to take a huge paycut to get a job there, but where to even start looking?"

Comments

Re:"I want to move midwest"

[jason_watkins]

yeah, all I gotta say is if he wants to live in the midwest, thank god it means he won't come up here to the northwest and increase my competition :P.

Talk to Konstantinos

[bitty]

Hey Konstantinos, why don't you start up a software firm in Nebraska and give this guy a job?

Telecommuting?

[Tuxinatorium]

Isn't software engineering, etc. the kind of thing that could be done well online whether you were in San Fransisco or Antarctica? For instance Ambrosia Software employs one guy in kansas and several guys in tasmania and other places working out of their basements, but the central office is in Rochester, NY.

Kalifornia

[kasper37]

I for one am getting out of california and moving to Nevada. No state tax and it is also not raping the second amendment. As far as jobs go I pretty much plan on getting out of the computer industry as my permanent job. There is always freelance, and frankly I'm getting bored with it.

You might be able to find a decent job... but

[LWolenczak]

You may find a cool, sweet job in another state, but be aware, your most likely not going to really find what you want, or where you want it. Sure, some engineering firms are hiring developers again, but things are just downright slow, and nearly non existant. A lot of things have contributed to this economic downfall... and Its not going to fix its self till many things happen..... I'm not going to go into a list, but the .com economy is a good cause of our current economic state in the rest of the country.

I'm comming up on being out of work for three months.... with little end in sight. I have hope, but when you have bills to pay, hope does not spring eternal. I say, stay where you are, or maybe commute from Navada. Yes, I'm serious.

Re:You might be able to find a decent job... but

[Zeio]

If you knew how to spell Nevada it might not be so hard to find work. [as well as existent, coming, and learn to use you're instead of your and use 'it's' correctly].

I may be in the technology field. I may push bits instead of a pencil, but communication skills are essential.

Now to address anyone with a job right now and what they should do. In my assessment my opinion is 'milk the cow until it dies' unless a guaranteed opportunity comes directly to you for more money in a less expensive location with a company with a very attractive balance sheet. California is difficult, but so is taking a regression in salary. I do believe California will have a severe problem with dealing with the twenty to thirty billion dollar state deficit without raising already alarmingly high state income and sales tax.

I would also like to point out that the dot com bust is an all too convenient scapegoat for the current situation in America (rising unemployment, deflation in wages in certain markets, deficits in state and federal government due to massive capital gain revenue being lost coupled with increased spending in reaction to sudden new 'needs' in national security, etc). Surprisingly, the economy is still growing, just more slowly when compared to they was it was. Politics and the stock market somehow get coalesced in with 'the economy.' Oversimplification is a dangerous tool the masses use upon themselves. Your gloom and doom is a reflection of your confidence, and whatever the source of self deprecation, it tends to have a pronounced effect on nations as a whole, but it's not enough to snuff out entrepreneurial, scientific or philanthropic spirit (thank goodness).

Failure can be a self fulfilling prophecy. The founder of Dunkin' Donuts made his first fortune in the great depression.

(article linked to above blockquoted, slow link>

Last updated at: (Beijing Time) Thursday, November 28, 2002
Fed Report Says US Economy Growing Slowly The US economy is growing slowly but business conditions are patchy and the jobs market is soft, the US Federal Reserve (Fed) said in a report Wednesday.
The US economy is growing slowly but business conditions are patchy and the jobs market is soft, the US Federal Reserve (Fed) said in a report Wednesday. "Economic activity grew slowly, on balance, in late October and early November," said the report known as the "Beige Book" for the color of its cover. It said that buying activity continued into mid-November with six of the Fed's regional bank districts reporting improvement in general merchandise sales despite the fact that auto sales were down across the country. "Service industry activity was generally sluggish," the report said. Manufacturing remained soft in most districts and business investment was limited. "Most Reserve banks reported nearly steady prices at both the consumer and producer levels, with the exception of shipping charges, which have risen in the wake of the West Coast port disruptions." The report will be used by Fed policy-makers when they meet on Dec. 10 to consider whether to cut interest rates again to spur the US economy. With a string of stronger-than-expected economic reports, many economists believe the US Fed will leave its target for overnight bank lending unchanged at a 41-year low of 1.25 percent. The Fed cut the federal funds rate by a half percentage point at its last meeting on Nov. 6.

Move North.

[Trusty Penfold]

There's loads of software jobs in the Seattle area.

Re:Move North.

[itwerx]

Yeah, and even bigger loads of unemployed programmers trampling down the door to get at them!
Friend of mine just got hired for a position which received over 800 applicants in less than a month! (They threw up their hands at the deluge and went the word-of-mouth route).
Another position I know of recently was very low paying kind of boring crappy little job at a non-profit org. and it got over a hundred resumes before it was even officially available! (At least they saved their advertising $. :)
Not to mention, if you actually bother to read the business section of the news, Seattle has the highest unemployment rate for the tech sector in the whole damn country!
So if you have a job you specifically want to offer the guy, go for it, but don't be leading him on...

Oh, that reminds me....

[LWolenczak]

Could somebody put up the sign on the state lines with CA that say "There is no Escape... Turn back Now". tehehehehe

No!

[wdr1]

Software engineering involving multiple people is the kind of thing that requires teamwork and good communication. Have all the documentation you want, even use a development process like XP, but you're sure to find there is still a tremendous benifit in having the team work in close proximity.

I suppose it's just the way the world works, but it's hard to get the match the random hallway converstations. They often result in avoiding massive problems or substantial enhancements. It's also very benificial for your engineers to be able to stroll over and ask another developer a quick question (ideally with a whiteboard in near proximity).

My two cents.

-Bill

Re:No!

[toast0]

I think that would actually be a large hidden benefit of telecomuting with software engineering.

Since you can't glean info from the coworkers in the hall, you'll probably get it from them in writing, and if its in writing, it can be in the documentation, and if you put it in the documentation, then everybody knows.

Re:No!

[dubl-u]

That's a plausible theory. If writing documentation were as easy as talking to the guy at the next desk, your theory would even be true.

Alas, when writing, you have to guess every question anybody would ask, and then guess at what their experience and knowledge is, so that you can then guess at the right answer. And even if you guess right three times in a row, writing good docs takes much longer than chatting in the hall.

Human conversation has massive bandwidth and low latency. Really good documentation can be a close second. But most people write shitty documentation.

(Note to lame programmers: the fact that documentation sucks isn't a reason to write crappy code. As Martin Fowler says, "Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that a human can understand.")

Re:No!

[aminorex]

I've been telecommuting for 14 years, and with the
exception of my stint at Sun Microsystems, I found
it a much superior arrangement. It works best when
everyone is telecommuting. I can't understand how
anyone can do useful work in a cube. It takes me
30 minutes to get started on a substantial piece
of code, old or new, and if my train of thought is
interrupted during that time, I have to restart
the clock.

In a 100% telecommuting environment, the result is
superior documentation, superior process and
coordination, and superior individual productivity.
Of course you have to cull the dead weight much
more quickly, but it also becomes very obvious
much more quickly who is contributing and who is
not.

Re:No!

[aminorex]

You can get almost all of that bandwidth in a phone
call. "Tele"-commuting means "tele"-communications.
Whiteboarding is good too.

If someone is not producing good documentation, they
are a long-term drain on the organization and should
be dumped. Just a rule of thumb, of course, but
an important one.

Re:No!

[dubl-u]

You can get almost all of that bandwidth in a phone call. "Tele"-commuting means tele"-communications. Whiteboarding is good too.

Some, perhaps. But nothing close to all.

I work in the style of various Agile methods, including the unfortunately named Extreme Programming. This involves close team development.

One great benefit is intentional communication. Turning to the guy at the next desk to ask a question is still an order of magnitude easier than even the shiniest phone. And the bandwidth is still a lot higher; on the phone you lose expression and posture, to say nothing of the ability to hand you something.

But just as important is the unintentional communication. If the pair next to me is having trouble with something that I know about, then I can just pipe up. If I'm making a decision that affects them, they can put their two cents in without me having to call a meeting.

Sitting in the same room with my team gives me a great deal of information about the state of the project for free. Getting the same info by telephone or email is much, much harder.

If someone is not producing good documentation, they are a long-term drain on the organization and should be dumped. Just a rule of thumb, of course, but an important one.

Alternatively, perhaps it's the organization that develops in a way that requires a lot of paperwork that is a long-term drain and should be dumped.

Documentation is a method of communication. We communicate so we can develop with speed and accuracy. But documentation isn't the only way to do that, or even the best one.

When documentation is necessary, I use it. (And as a published writer, I even think it's fun.) But it's never my first choice.

Re:No!

[swillden]

Sitting in the same room with my team gives me a great deal of information about the state of the project for free. Getting the same info by telephone or email is much, much harder.

It's not that bad, and I speak as someone who develops software with a distributed team (all of us work from home).

Some things we do: Heavy use of instant messaging and the telephone. As far as IM goes, we generally have a full-team chat open all day long, every day (right now the project I'm working on is a two-man job, so "full-team chat" is the same as "conversation"). Phones with headsets allow us to have constant voice communication when we want as well. It's not unheard of to set up a dedicated conference call number which everyone is dialed into all day long, mostly just transmitting keyclicks. More normal, though, is to use IM unless higher bandwidth is required.

We don't use netmeeting stuff, really, although we probably should look into it. And as far as being able to hand someone something, well, the goal is to make sure everybody has all of the equipment they need and everything else is just bits on the wire.

Re:No!

[dubl-u]

Sitting in the same room with my team gives me a great deal of information about the state of the project for free. Getting the same info by telephone or email is much, much harder.

It's not that bad, and I speak as someone who develops software with a distributed team (all of us work from home).

I've done both, and I agree it's possible to develop in a distributed way. But working apart, you only get information on what people choose to say.

In person, you get a lot of valuable information that people don't say. An IM that says "Sure, I'll meet the delivery date," is one thing; being able to watch their eyes when they say it is another. To say nothing of being able to tell whether the guy who hasn't said anything in a while is working hard or just in a panic.

well, the goal is to make sure everybody has all of the equipment they need and everything else is just bits on the wire.

It's a good goal, but converting to bits is hard. And until we all get jacks in the backs of our skulls; some things just won't convert. For example, having a bunch of people doing joint design by moving around CRC cards has a compelling presence that a screen and a mouse just can't match.

So again, I agree that you can develop that way when you have to. But physical presence (and its incrased bandwidth) makes it possible to go faster.

Re:No!

[swillden]

So again, I agree that you can develop that way when you have to. But physical presence (and its incrased bandwidth) makes it possible to go faster.

I think it depends on the team more than anything. We don't have any problems with what people choose not to say; but that comes from trust built by experience, which may not always be the case. It also comes about because I'm the project manager but I'm also a very good developer, which means that it's very difficult to BS me.

To say nothing of being able to tell whether the guy who hasn't said anything in a while is working hard or just in a panic.

This is a good example: We tend to verbalize every minor success or obstacle, so there's no question -- the guy who's silent isn't working.

For example, having a bunch of people doing joint design by moving around CRC cards has a compelling presence that a screen and a mouse just can't match.

True. There are downsides. But not having to spend two hours a day commuting and being able to live wherever you want makes most of us willing to go the extra mile and find ways around them. I work more hours when telecommuting than I would otherwise, in part to overcome some of the obstacles you mention, but my quality of life is better for it.

Try Provo

[T-Ranger]

novell is looking for an experienced software engineer.

Re:Try Provo

[LWATCDR]

Provo is NOT a Cheap place to live.
Also it is about 90% LDS. That is both good and bad. I am LDS but I just do not want to live anywhere that is 90% one religion. Even if it is my own.

Stay away

[Wonko42]

Whatever you do, don't come to Portland. I barely managed to grab a job as it is; I don't need any qualified techies snapping things out from under me. That said, I love it here. But stay away. I'm warning you.

Tornado...

[*xpenguin*]

and I'm pretty much just waiting for the earthquake to hit and wipe it out.

I'd love to move to the midwest

Oh great, then a tornado will destroy your house.

DC Metro Area

[Anonymous Coward]

Depending on where you want to work, you might find something of interest in this region. Besides government work, there are many businesses in Northern Virgnia, and lots of stuff in suburban Maryland. And, hey, housing prices are outrageous in this area too!

Re:DC Metro Area

[xWeston]

Are you joking? i went to the east coast (specifically maryland) for the first time ever and the houses were MUCH cheaper than they are where i live. The houses being built around mine (i live in a 1000 sqft condo/duplex that is worth $300k) are averaging in price at about $800k with the low end starting at about $600k.
The high end TRACK HOUSING goes for about $1.5million. I live in north county san diego, it isnt cheap.

In maryland i saw houses as large as these 1.5million dollar ones for around $500k or less.

Re:DC Metro Area

[MacAndrew]

Houses here in No. VA are outrageous by normal-world standards. A modest house in Arlington costs what a farm would ten miles out, and a palace in the South or Midwest. Meanwhile, prices in No. CA are other-worldly. I mean, using California housing prices as a basis of comparison would be like starting with Hitler as your standard of compassion.

Median prices in Arlington have risen roughly 50% in 5 years -- a bit of sticker shock.

To the poster: There are many many mini Silicon-Whatevers around the country, including here. Things have slowed down with the economy, of course.

I grew up in California, N and S, and think it's a great state. But I have no question my standard of living (except weather) is better here. Anyway I like snow, damn it, and my mentality is much more East Coast than West.

Re:DC Metro Area

[unitron]

That's tract housing, not track housing (unless you live in a private rail car like James West and Artemus Gordon :-)

Send me a resume!

[Llama Keeper]

Seriously, I'm looking for some good Software Engineers. We outsource most of our development and are looking to move it in-house. Drop me a resume justin@_NOSPAM_Llamakeeper.com.

JUSTIN

Read this...

[burnsy]

According to this study, Movin' Out: Domestic Migration to and from California in the 1990s, California has had a net outflow every year in the 1990s.

The top states for Californians to move to were:

Washington - 534,000
Texas - 523,000
Arizona - 449,000
Oregon - 374,000
Neveda - 320,000

Re:Read this...

[anthony_dipierro]

Yeah, I was gonna say, lots of techs in Texas, if you can deal with the po lice.

Re:Read this...

[ByteHog]

Damn californians!! stay out of washington!! no more room for you all!! :) (joking!!!!!)

seriously though, a lot of seattlites moving to spokane/northeast WA to get away from the californians coming to seattleish area...

Re:Read this...

[AIXadmin]

My only problem with this is if everyone was leaving in 90's. Then who is moving into all those damn houses paid for by Cisco stock options?

Re:Read this...

[shemnon]

Urban legend speaks of a sign on the California/Oregon Border on a major interstate. The sign is one of those "Welcome to our state" signs that read "Oregon, a great place to visit."

On the back of the sign was a hand written addendum: "Don't forget to leave"

Re:Read this...

[ecampbel]

If you add in the number of new foreign immigrants over the past decade, California has had a net inflow or at least its population has stayed consistent. Furthermore, the results of the latest census gave California more representation in the House, which means that the state has larger percentage of the U.S's population than it had in 1990. Finally, if you look at the paper, it shows that the people leaving California are among the least educated, and those moving in are among the most. As a Californian, I say good riddance.

From the study:

Estimates of the net outflow vary substantially (see the text box, "Measuring Domestic Migration" on page 4). Despite the outflow of domestic migrants, California's population continued to grow during the 1990s through international immigration and natural increase. Although growth rates were substantially lower than in the 1980s, between 1990 and 1999 the state's population increased by 3.3 million people according to the Census Bureau and by 4.2 million people according to the California Department of Finance. According to the Census Bureau, the net inflow of 2.2 million international immigrants was offset by the net outflow of 2.2 million domestic migrants. Estimates by the California Department of Finance imply a much lower net outflow of about 1.2 million domestic migrants.

Thats funny...

[tolldog]

I was looking at heading the other direction.
There are jobs in the midwest. I would look in Chicago (and suburbs), Columbus, Indianapolis or Detroit.
All of my work experience is with CG/Animation, so to stay in the industry I pretty much have to leave the midwest. The midwest is really a good place to live and work.
If you are used to the hour long commute, that opens you up to plenty of afordable housing in the midwest.

-Tim

Portland to Idaho

[Will_Malverson]

Until the beginning of this year, I was working for a large corporation near Portland, Oregon. When they started downsizing, they offered me a generous severance package to leave. I took it and moved to Boise, Idaho, where I'm originally from.

I used the package to buy a house, and started living off of my savings while looking for a job. It took me about three months to find one. I've moved from being a software engineer at $62k per year to being a hardware tester at $15 per hour. But I absolutely don't regret it. I'm very happy here and don't miss Portland at all.

Though my pay has dropped from >5k / month to 2.5k / month, my actual take-home has only dropped to about 60% of what it was because I'm in a lower tax bracket. Further, my mortgage is now $500 / month less than it was, from $1110 to $609.

Start looking in all of the places you'd like to move to. If you've never been there, take some time off and go there, or talk to someone who has. There are relatively few jobs away from the coast, but they are out here. Check the local newspapers, and see what you can find. Find out who the big employers are in the towns you're interested in, and start trying to contact people within them.

Finally, if you're unhappy, move. You only live once.

Re:Portland to Idaho

[Naikrovek]

Finally, if you're unhappy, move. You only live once.

Oh, dude I so agree with that statement. I grew up in Illinois, did short work stints in San Antonio, Texas, and Denver, Colorado. Then I moved again to Anchorage, Alaska, then Kansas City, then back to Anchorage, then small towns in Missouri, and now I'm in Sydney, Australia.

Man, life is far too short to just dream of other places, you have to take the initiative and go there.

I'm also trying to get a job in the US, but when I've had my fill of that place, I'm going to Scotland. That's highest right now on my places-i -want-to-go list, and there is no way in hell I'm not going.

My advice is to move where you want to be, then find a job there. Or, find a job where you want to move, then move there. But don't find a job you like then move to wherever it is, you'll never like where you go because you were made to go there.

Do what you love, live where you want, do what you like, and the money will come to you, that's my experience, anyway.

-Naikrovek

duuude!!!

[Polo]

Or you could...

get a street bike

get a dirt bike

get a jetski

get a surfboard (and a wetsuit)

get a snowboard or skiis

forget bug repellant

get some sunblock

get some hiking boots

go to Fry's...etc...

Utah

[flikx]

I'm not kidding, it worked fine for me. Strong tech sector, affordable housing, good wages for engineers, friendly people, world class recreation (biking, skiing, hiking, climbing, etc.) I was glad to escape California, it didn't even take much adjusting: considering the fact that most of the people living in my neighborhood are from California.

Re:Utah

[mithras the prophet]

Yeah, but Utah is like 99.9998% white people.

After living in New York City and southern California, being around all white people makes me feel uncomfortable.

And yes, I'm white.

Re:Utah

[ConceptJunkie]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Every time I've upgraded my housing, the neighborhood I moved to was more white. I like white professional people just fine (I am one), but I really enjoyed the (age, national-origin, career) diversity in the apartments I lived in 10-15 years ago.

Re:Utah

[swillden]

Unfortunately, Utah is getting to be so popular as a place to live, that it's less and less of a great place to live. The influx of Californians, in particular, has driven up housing prices, caused lots of open spaces to be filled in with ever-expanding suburbia and overcrowded our highways (I-15 is mostly okay right now, what with all the pre-Olympics expansion work, but all of that work *only* made it okay again, and more people are coming).

Not that I have anything against the Californians (and others) coming here; it's a free country (more or less) and I can certainly understand the attraction.

Still, that's why Utahns like me are eyeing Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. And this time I'm not getting anything smaller than 40 acres -- not gonna have my view cluttered up with houses again. Bonus points for any place where my kids can shoot their .22s in the back yard.

No doubt there are going to be some Idahoans complaining about the influx of Utahns...

Are you sure about massive pay cuts?

[nelsonal]

While were doubtless not the only govenrment hiring, I know Montana's state government is hiring and would love to get smart experienced techs. We're about as different as you can get from California (you will have to enter state of montana in the job type field, I can't seem to find a way to get the URL to recognise any search terms). Understand that your pay will stink, but you can pick up a nice house for 150,000 or so, your commute will be 20 min tops, and I live both down town and a five minute walk from a place that you can see one house far on the horizon. If you do decide to move here, either don't admit you are from California, don't comment on the deal you are getting for your house, and don't tell anyone I told you to come up here. If you wanted more money try Boise, ID or one of the university towns in the west. If the example job is well below your skill level, as it sorta looks, I am sorry, no insults were intended, and a single guy will live like a king here on that salary range.

Michigan Job!

[pheonix]

If you are considering a move to the greater Detroit area in Michigan... I hear my job is opening up soon.

Check this out...

[xagon7]

www.computerjobs.com

Good place to start looking, seems Texas has a shit load of opportunity ;)

Re:What's wrong with this man???

[mhesseltine]

Have you been to any modestly large cities in the Midwest? I'm not talking about Chicago, IL, Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN, or Indianpolis,IN. I'm talking about cities like Madison, WI, Rockford, IL, or Des Moines, IA.

Most of these cities score reasonably high on quality of living surveys and are hardly "white-trash wastelands". Take a week and visit before going off on a stereotype.

Remote software dev

[0x0d0a]

I've found that face to face time really is valuable -- especially for hashing out new ideas. If you're deciding on architecture, even a phone conference really isn't all that great. I also really think that periodic meetings (weekly?) face to face are a better idea than trying to do things electronically.

I think that a lot of this stems from two main reasons:

a) if you're throwing out ideas very quickly, the higher bandwidth of speech than typing can be helpful (even phones are, at least for me, much more difficult to understand than right-here spoken words).

b) There are some major impediments to the equivalent of quick diagram sketches or showing things visually. First, the computer has piss-poor input devices for producing a quick sketch -- mice are really, really slow compared to a pen. Second, there isn't a overwhelmingly popular, universal, cross-platform system for collaborating and sharing sketches and bits of information, though there have been a lot of stabs at it. Third, the bandwidth used in sketching can be a bit of an issue if one of your users is on a low bandwidth connection like a modem. I've seen some research work done at Bell Labs and Carnegie Mellon University on software to rapidly develop rough 3d models. It's nice, but it's nowhere near what you can accomplish with a pen, a piece of paper for 2d or clay for 3d.

OTOH, while this varies from project to project, during the actual coding or debugging process, I've seen no problems with simply using text and working remotely. As a matter of fact, it's often easier to share information, since you're copy-pasting errors or other information back and forth. It's a bit disappointing that the most popular messaging protocols suck (Jabber's the most popular one I know of that's actually well-designed), but IM client + shared network filesystem + available phone works pretty well, in practice.

After all, take a look at Linux...

Also, a minor benefit of increasing the cost of communication between developers is that it tends to improve modularity -- each developer goes more out of his way to ensure that his code is robust in handling errors in the other developers' code.

Portland is full

[Baloo Ursidae]

Don't move to Portland. Oregon is full. Unemployment is sky-high and for Californians, if the weather doesn't get you, the locals attitude towards you will. That being said, if you do move to Oregon, keep to yourself, claim you're from Arizona and never carry an umbrella (doing so marks you an outsider and people get pissed about the eye-level hazard. Get real raingear like a trenchcoat or poncho instead).

Not a bad way to find workers

[0x0d0a]

Given the number of Slashdot readers constantly complaining about being out of work, I expect that a pretty good way to generate a hell of a lot of resume submissions is to mention a job opening on Slashdot.

Telecommuting can work

[Trane Francks]

I'm a telecommuter. Admittedly, I tend to work on small, one-man projects, but multi-person projects can work just fine, IME, as long as everyone involved understands the need for face time.

We're living in a broadband era, so things such as Netmeeting and the like are marvelous for exchanging ideas. Real-time video conferencing is possible for next to no expense when using such software. Real-time code walk-throughs, specification reviews, prototype demos....it's all possible with such software packages.

Since I develop for NT and Win2k, we use Netmeeting. The shared whiteboard, shared apps and video/audio/text capabilities are invaluable for fleshing out ideas and being sure of everyone's intentions. So, no, you don't need to guess every possible question that might be asked, you just have to make sure that the tools available to communicate are well and truly used.

The risk is that we telecommuters tend to really enjoy the isolation and may lean toward maintaining that isolation rather than reach out on a regular basis to make sure that we're all (project-wide) marching to the same drummer. To minimize this risk, therefore, it's incumbent upon project management to ensure that these tools are used and used well. Doing so will ensure that there are no unwanted surprises brought about due to the development process being distributed.

Can be done

[AlecC]

MySQL seems to work as a "virtual company". They are scattered all over the world - though with heavy bias to Europe, which keeps the timezones together.

Midwest

[moc.tfosorcimgllib]

What are you looking for in the midwest? Large cheap houses? Check out Omaha, Kearney, Grand Island in nebraska (I know Cabellas is always hiring tech people, but they are truly in the middle of nowhere). Topeka, Wichita, Lawrence are very good in Kansas. For larger cities where you have luxuries check out Kansas City (Overland Park), Oklahoma City, Chicago.

Avoid Denver, the houses are overpriced, and the market is very tight even for people with experience and education.

The midwest doesn't offer as many tech/geek opportunities, but they do offer very cheap land and houses.

Austin, TX

[extra88]

I was in Austin, TX in the mid-90s when there was something like 40,000 people a year moving in and the majority of them were from California. I really haven't paid attention to the city since I left in '96 but at the time there was a lot of high tech there. It was a lot of hardware, chip fab and whatnot, but where there's hardware, there's software. At the time, Californians were moving in and were building McMansions in the hills with the proceeds of the sale of their modest homes in California.

Culturally, Austin has a lot going on, particularly its music scene. Pretty much all the state's liberals are corralled there but it is the state capital so virtually every political bent is well represented.

Anyhow, it should be on your list of places to check out.

Dont come to Toronto

[mnmn]

The fact that you CAN find a six figure job there is a hint you should stay.

I'm not in your shoes but: 5 years exp, no college degree but MCSE, LCA, CCNA, LPI and now RHCE, and the market in Toronto sucks. I am working in a small company helping with the database, and the IT guys are practically fighting over the position. My 6-month long search in various sectors has received abysmal replies. (maybe its just the lack of degree)

I'm looking for an excuse to move to California.

Re:Dont come to Toronto

[LordNimon]

I saw a chart in a magazine recently that showed that people without degrees are 4 times as likely to be unemployed than those with Master's degrees. I think it was something like 1.6% for having an MS, and like 6.something percent for those with only a highschool diploma.

So yes, the lack of a degree is a big part of your problem.

I have an MS and I'd like to live in Toronto. Maybe I can get your job?

Atlanta

[DevilM]

I recently moved from San Francisco to Atlanta. Atlanta is one of the few places in the country that actually has a growing technology sector. Further, the cost of living is very low. I can't give you a difference in salary for myself as I run my own company and thus didn't change my salary. However, my fiancée had an entry-level data mining job in San Francisco for 45k and now has a similar job in Atlanta for 43k. While that is a 2k pay cut for her, it feels more like a 40k pay raise.

Re:Atlanta

[Spock the Baptist]

"Add in the fact that Atlanta is still living in the 1980s and there are almost no good sushi joints..."

Atlanta--
Don't just watch That 80's Show, live it!

Sushi?
What you don't like catfish?

Re:"I want to move midwest"

[Cpt_Kirks]

You forgot the New Madrid Fault (Southeast Missouri and surrounding areas). It rivals the San Adreas(sp). Plus tornados.

However, we are hiring (in Memphis). You gotta know Progress, though. If you have to ask "Progress who", then just move along. And forget those left coast wages.

i switched!

[panker]

Last year I saw my company flailing, and I decided to bail. I left Santa Cruz, CA with no job, a dog, and my girlfriend. We moved to Pennsylvania, but I could not find a job due to 911. Fortunately I was able to land a job near Baltimore, and now we are looking at buying a row home in the city. I lost 40 pounds and never felt better, so my suggestion is to just pick up and leave, it worked out for me. One thing that I did was take a pay cut, but I am finding out that I didn't have to do that, or at least not as much. I have a BSEE with 5 years exp and that is worth money anywhere.

consider Northern Virginia

[peteshaw]

the Northern Virginia/DC area, is pretty cool. While not, say, California cool, it has:

3% unemployment.

While telecom has been nuked, the government sector is growing and defense contractors are hiring. (Can you say homeland security?)

You are halfway between the chesapeake bay and the Shenandoah mountains, so most people can find something (sailing, hiking, lazing at the beach, hanging out downtown) to do.

And, when bored, you can always go to the whitehouse and watch people protesting all manners of things.

I don't know, its okay down here. Housing is expensive by most standards, but still maybe half of NoCal standards.

good luck to you--peace and joy

--Pete

Re:consider Northern Virginia

[DAldredge]

Don't forget the DC area also has one of the highest crime rates in the USA.

That other coast

[fizbin]

Well have you considered New Jersey?

Don't believe the common image of the state as a toxic hellhole - that's just the view from NYC (from NYC, you look out onto Newark and Jersey City, so I can understand the confusion). Most of the state is gorgeous, and the real estate prices, while not nearly the deal that they are in some parts of the midwest, are sane.

There's plenty of work as you get closer to New York, especially if you're at all inclined to work in financial or biotech places. (The New Brunswick-Princeton corridor is good too)

As you get closer to Philadelphia, the places that are hiring techs tend more towards regional offices of large corporations. (It's also my impression that there's a good deal of embedded stuff that people aren't allowed to talk about going on in Burlington and Atlantic counties) If you don't mind suburbia, I keep hearing that the Rt. 202 corridor NW from Philadelphia is a reasonably warm tech spot. (And I suppose I should point you at the local job website that found me my job)

If you head further south, into Delaware, you get companies that are all feeding off of subsidiary businesses surrounding the great DuPont, (or weasel businesses playing shell games with Delaware's loose corporate laws) and sales-tax-free shopping too.

I understand that there's tech. stuff both further north and further south, but what I've heard about both the NC (Research Triangle) and Boston area job markets is not encouraging.

I did what you're trying to do

[gregwbrooks]

Born and raised in CA, and managed to finally end up in the midwest (first Chicago, then Kansas City). Sold my rat-trap of a house for $145k (paid $180k, dammit -- AND it's now worth $310k!) in 1996, moved to Chicago, and never regretted it for an instant. By way of housing-price contrasts, I now live in a restored, painted-lady Victorian that I paid $144k for; if I wanted a similarly old/large/cool house in downtown Kansas City, I could have gotten it for about $250k -- both prices are (ahem) quite a bit less than the going CA rates.

A few pointers:

• Set your sights on the bigger metro areas. Sure, everyone wants to telecommute, but management's not going to put up with it for the most part. The big difference is that there is oh-so-cheap housing within driving/train distance in most of the Midwestern markets. On the other hand, if you go to a smaller, more-rural market, you're basically screwed when your job dries up. I'd stick to Chicago, Kansas City, Milwaukee and (maybe) Indianapolis if your heart is set on the midwest.
• Going to Chicago? Live just over the state line in Indiana. Better tax situation, commuting options via car or train, and the housing is MUCH cheaper.
• Check out the business journals. Most major cities (and certainly the ones I mentioned) have weekly business journals. Most of these, in turn, do an annual "book of lists" that ticks off contact info for things like "largest employers," "largest software developers," largest web design firms," etc. Very helpful.
• Check in with the local user groups. Depending on what your field is, you can get a lot of info via e-mail by chatting up with local user groups.

Re:What's wrong with this man???

[j-turkey]

Most of these cities score reasonably high on quality of living surveys

Yep -- they're pretty nice places to live. (Chicago is also a very livable city)...but have you ever tried living in a Madison, WI winter? Think about how it'll fly for a Californian. Far, far too cold.

--Turkey

BUt can you get a decent beer??!?

[Unknown Poltroon]

YEs, that is one of my more important criteria.

Where to come to: East Coast

[Ayanami Rei]

Places of interest:

• Washington DC Metro Area - Where I am. Lots of tech jobs, although some businesses are on the way out there is still low unemployment. We get a lot of government work out here. ^_^ w00t! Home of UUNET. Warning, half the jobs you want require a clearence, hope you kept your nose clean!!! Also the traffic is nearly as bad as Cali.
  
• Central Jersey (Princeton, Somerset, Middlesex Counties) - A recently developed suburban area between Philly and NYC. There are a lot of pharmaceutical outfits there, newspapers, etc. There are a good number of tech jobs to be had. Housing prices are decent.
  
• Atlanta - Don't know much about it except its cheaper there, and there's a number of technical jobs available.
  
• Boston - Same thing goes as for Atlanta. More specifically, look into the area near Williamstown and North Adams. I understand is like a little Silicon Valley.
  

Of course there is.

[Dannon]

Just ask Snake Plissken.

If your self motivated...

[MrIcee]

If you are self motivated might I suggest you begin your own company. Base the company around internet communications as the primary means of finding / working with clients.

Once you do this, and build the base and generate income than start to look at where you would most like to live, regardless of where it is (assuming it has the minimum telecommunications requirements you want).

If you want to live in a paradise, follow your heart. If the big city is what you want... go for it. The bottom line is become self motivated and innovate. Develop serious goals and follow through until you achieve them.

Becomming dependent on yourself gives you the ability to be independent and free to follow your dreams.

Aloha Nui Loa

Re:What's wrong with this man???

[sporktoast]

Didn't Columbus, Ohio just top BET's list of best cities for African Americans? Several other midwestern cities made it in the top 20 as well.

Re: Portland to other countries?

[phamlen]

Very interesting and tempting!

How do you get work visas in other countries such as Scotland and Australia?

I always thought that was a substantial issue in moving outside the US.

Re:"I want to move midwest"

[perljon]

I used to live in a trailer park, and I saw one about once a week. I'm kind of a regular on the local news circuits.

Not so Bad

[perljon]

You really have to know someone to get into a job these days, so I'd suggest searching your midwest contacts.

Beyond that, Columbus, Ohio is a great place to work/live. Ohio State University is a great place to work, and they are always hiring. Besides that Naitionwide Insurance, Bank One, Verizon, and AEP are good places to start in Columbus. In Cincinnati, there are a couple of book places. GE is big in Cleveland. Better yet, find someone in CA that will let you telecommute. Nothing like a CA income and an Ohio cost of living.

hahahaha

[josepha48]

Yeah, I live in ca too.

Well I have been to Kansas, which is in the midwest. You can get a really big house for 150-250k. Problem is you'll be lucky to make 30k, unless you work for a company in another state and telecommute.

I have lived in DC and Virginia. Your salary there would be better. Probably 60-90k depending on your skill level. Problem is that housing is more expensive than Kansas, and the commute is as bad as here.

I have lived in Florida, Boston, Lousiana, and several other places. There is always a tradoff no matter where you live. Truth is that the salary that you are making now, probably wont be what you would make somewhere else. It would probably be lower. So well housing would be lower, so would your salary and it all kinda balances it self out.

So what do you prefer? Earthquakes, stay in CA (Oh and they have earthquakes in Kentucky too, as well as NY, just not as often. [we are all waiting for the 'big one']). Floods, live near the Mississippi, or Texas, AZ, New Mexico, etc. Tornados, try the midwest like Kansas, Oaklahoma, 'tornado alley'. Snow? Then anywhere in the north.

After living in several different climates and visiting several different US climates, I find that I am happy'er here in CA. We have better restaurants IMHO then elsewhere and I like the climate. Yeah we have earthquakes, but look at the USGS and you'll find so do other parts of the country. When I was in New Hampshire, we had 2 small ones that shook the bed.

Re: Portland to other countries?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

The visa process usually requires that you be sponsored by a company already there. The best place to start would be the embassy for whichever country you are looking at.