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Jordan Hubbard Gives Last Intervew For Apple
acaben writes "MacSlash has posted what Jordan Hubbard says will be his last interview for Apple. Apple's Engineering Manager for the BSD Technology Group talks about the new BSDPorts initiative, his thoughts on working for Apple and Apple's Open Source strategy, and how Mac users new to Open Source can get involved and contribute to the community. He also gets delightfully geeky in comparing the differences between Darwin's VM envirnoment and FreeBSD's and explains that Darwin was built with things like working with Final Cut Pro in mind."
And to think, just yesterday Macslash was saying the interview would likely never air. (so to speak)
John Kenneth Fisher
Table of malContents
Geez. No offense to any of you, but wasn't it just up until last year when Apple products were only used by designers and retards? Hell, you can't even go for a beer with any OBSD boys without a few Macs pop out of their case onto the table.
/rant
I know this is just a rant, but someone's got to comment on Ms. Feiss.... I'll leave that for you.
HURD - Hurd's Under Research & Development
and this week on apple.slashdot, we watch as macslash wipes its ass. Have people stoped posting apple stories here and only parot whatever macslash has put up?
I'm sorry, but reading several hundred lines of italicized text is making me nauseous:
.deb packages and is really badly documented.
:-)
;-) I'm sure there are other areas where this can be improved besides these two examples.
:-)
Jordan Hubbard, Apple's Engineering Manager for the BSD technology group has been kind enough to answer the question you posed awhile ago. (The holdup in getting these posted was not Mr. Hubbard's fault, but a snag in Apple's PR department approving his answers.) Mr. Hubbard has said that this will be his last interview for Apple, and he will no longer have contact with the press. (Note, this doesn't mean he's leaving Apple. He's just not talking to the press as part of his duties at Apple.) We're glad to share his thoughts with you in the answers below.
Filesystems
by marmoset
I know that Darwin supports plug-in filesystems. Is anyone working on fault-resistance (softupdates, journalling) for future Darwin releases? I lost months worth of encoded MP3's to directory corruption last month (I didn't back them up because I had the original CD's, but still, it's a ton of lost effort) and I'd love to see some sort of more robust filesystem support show up.
As you may have noticed, we recently release journalling support for Mac OS X Server.
Building Darwin
OpenDarwin recently released the initial release of DarwinPorts, will the build system used on Apple's Darwin ever build using DarwinPorts? The reason I ask is that I've found the Darwin build system to be insanely difficult, it requires an incredible amount of bootstrapping, uses Debian style
JH: We are always looking for ways to make Darwin easier to build, but it is too soon to comment on whether DarwinPorts is the right solution.
Second related question. How are the people behind DarwinPorts working with the fink team? It seems like once DarwinPort matures there will be a lot of duplicated effort between the DarwinPorts and Fink teams? Are Fink's days numbered?
JH: The fink developers have actually been very supportive of the darwinports project and they seem to feel that any project which satisfies the overall goals of bringing lots of useful third-party software to Mac OS X is a good one, no matter what it's called. I haven't seen any real duplicated effort yet and expect to see more cooperation between the teams if and when that starts to be an issue.
Third DarwinPorts related question. One of my concerns with installing software from packages is that the way the packages are configured can never satisfy everyone. For example I always build expat before building python so that I can get access to Python's XML parsing functionality. Some people would prefer not to do that to preserve space. How will DarwinPorts be flexible enough to deal with those sorts of situation? Will it only be flexible enough if you build from source or do you see binary packages able to cope?
JH: Well, let me first say that if your build system doesn't cope with building "variants" for things then it's pretty unlikely that your package system will either since *something* has to build the bits you're packaging and it has to know what order to build them in, as you note with your expat and python example. Darwinports has the concept of port "variants" to handle this exact problem, and I expect whatever package system we end up gluing in as a back-end to Darwinports will simply name its packages such that if you want to provide versions of expat with XML and without, darwinports can build and package both. Then it simply becomes a matter of having a package management front-end give the user the option of selecting a package name and the variants they want and then use the same name-mangling rules to try and find that pre-built variant. Getting really clever, you might even end up sending a request to some darwinports server asking it to build you a custom package on the fly and send it back. It's probably still faster to have a dual XServe on the net build a package for you, even with others contending for the resource, than building it yourself on a G3/233 or something. With proper caching of pre-built packages, you wouldn't even need to compile stuff on the server all that often and this is obviously an area ripe for exploration.
Kernel level clustering?
by jessemckinney
Hello, Is there going to be clustering in some of the next builds? I would love to see OS X be able to cluster with any other mac on my lan. Can you imagine the possibilities?
JH: I'm not involved with any of that, so I really can't comment.
Working for Apple
by Anonymous Coward
Is your job at Apple what you thought it would be? What has been the greatest surprise?
JH: I didn't come to Apple with a lot of preconceived notions either way, so I wouldn't say I've been particularly surprised by anything here. If anything has been a surprise to me, it's been the degree to which people outside of Apple seem to care so intensely about what we're up to and where we're going.
What do the other *BSDs get out of Darwin?
by chrischow
We know the benefits of using *BSD code to improve Darwin and with it OSX but what about the other direction? How have FreeBSD and co. benefited (if at all) from Apple/Darwin development?
JH: Some patches and test suites have already made it across from Mac OS X into FreeBSD, one test suite in particular (a filesystem exerciser) being very useful to Matt Dillon and others in finding bugs in FreeBSD's NFS code and even in UFS's soft updates feature. There's also the PR angle, obviously, since it certainly doesn't hurt FreeBSD at all to get prominent mention in some of Apple's keynotes. Finally, given BSD's historic focus on the server room, having the whole "Unix on the desktop" issue actually getting quite a bit of positive spin for a change isn't hurting the Unix cause in general at all.
Mac OS X has done a tremendous amount to make the very idea of Unix on the desktop credible again and undoing a lot of damage which Unix did to itself back in the 1980's during the Unix/GUI wars. To be sure, the KDE and GNOME projects have also done a lot of good in enhancing Unix's reputation there as well, but for many users the word "Desktop" is synonymous with "office applications", "multimedia" or "mainstream games" and being able to run things like Microsoft Office, Cubase SX or Medal of Honor alongside traditional Unix applications like emacs For PERL is pretty cool no matter how you look at it.
intro to oss 101
by Snuffub
With the release of Mac OS X millions of less technical users have been introduced in one way or another to open source software. Im sure a good number of them would want to get involved in the community some way but they dont have the technical background to help in the obvious ways, programing etc. What would you say to someone who asked you how they could help out the various projects that are bringing great software to the platform?
JH: I would say the first thing to do is find a project, like opendarwin or fink or any of the dozen or so Mac OS X-related projects on sourceforge, which seems to be doing stuff you're interested in and start "hanging out" in the forums they provide. Reading the dicusssions for awhile will start to give you a better feel for where they seem to need help, whether it's in getting documentation written or doing more testing or helping to evangelize the project and get more developers involved, or whatever. After you have a good feel for how things are going, volunteer for something! You'd be amazed at how many of these projects are desperate for things as "non-technical" as having their web site spruced up or maybe getting a little artwork for the project's mascot (or coming up with one in the first place). It's not just technical work that needs doing by any means and any project with good presentation skills is one which is far more likely to be successful.
Advanced Security Features; Other Stuff
by zarafa
What can you tell us about plans to include some of the current or forthcoming "next-gen" security features from the other BSDs? Specifically, jailNG (http://www.watson.org/~robert/freebsd/jailng/), systrace (http://www.citi.umich.edu/u/provos/systrace/), ipfw2, the FreeBSD NATD rewrite, Mandatory Access Controls (from the TrustedBSD project), and similar things? I know those are in many cases emerging technologies, but will Darwin attempt to stay relatively current with them?In a similar but not directly-related vein, what about filesystem improvements like those in UFS2 (softupdates, snapshots, extended attributes, etc.)? Leaving aside the possibility for the moment of a brand-new filesystem, it would just be nice to have a modern UFS...And just for the record, how do you feel about the Darwin virtual memory system, specifically as it compares with that of FreeBSD?
JH: When your grandmother sits down to log in, unless your grandmother is someone like Grace Hopper, the last thing she probably needs to see is a message like "Please enter DSA key to unlock keychain or next passphrase in OPIE sequence." Unlike some other Unix vendors, Apple needs to preserve ease-of-use as a high-level goal while also providing the kind of low-level features that allow more sophisticated users to apply other security policies, especially in server environments. We are in fact looking at a lot of the stuff that the FreeBSD and TrustedBSD projects have done in addition to pursuing various security certification programs which are necessary for certain markets. As to whether we'll adopt jailNG or some of the other mechanisms you mention, I can't say, but we're certainly aware of such things and aren't adverse to incorporating any good ideas or mechanisms which fit in with the higher-level goals I mentioned.
The Darwin VM and FreeBSD VM systems are so different in both scope and purpose that it's actually pretty hard to compare them. Running applications like Final Cut Pro put some really unique demands on a VM system and Darwin's has been designed with those sorts of usage scenarios in mind, whereas FreeBSD tends to optimize for a very different historical area of server focus. It's all a matter of choosing the right resource allocation and quota trade-offs given a certain projected application mix and I think both VM systems have actually done a pretty good job of this.
How Did It All Start?
By Snuffub
everyone knows that youre a leading figure in the BSD community so it's no wonder that apple hired you to head up the darwin project, but how did the relationship start off? Did they contact you early on when they first decided to use BSD? or was it an out of the blue phone call? Either way what were your major reservations when you were first offered the job, given that at the time apple had no track record in terms of their comitment to the open source community?
JH: I was actually the first to contact Apple, though I found them very receptive to the idea of my working there when I did. I'd been frustrated by Unix's historical lack of success on the desktop for a long time, and took it rather personally since I used desktop machines a lot in my daily life and Windows was not my idea of an ideal desktop OS. After seeing FreeBSD grow and prosper for almost 10 years, I also felt that BSD had done an amazingly good job of breaking into the server market and I was very ready to see it take on some new challenges. When I saw the first developer preview of Mac OS X, I knew Apple had something special on its hands and I started itching to get more involved. When 10.1 came out, I called and asked for an interview.
As far as reservations go, I can't really say I had any significant ones. Sure, Apple is a big company and its open source strategy is still evolving, but the fact that it has an open source strategy at all and a real chance to bring Unix to the desktop and in front of a much different audience than that traditionally enjoyed by Unix is more than enough for me. I'll continue to try and play a strong role in expanding Apple's relationship with the open source community, of course, and just seeing how much the Unix community has embraced Mac OS X so far makes me very optimistic for the future.
"Macifying" the unix core?
by Van Halen
I'm wondering if there are any plans to modify the unix core to better handle Mac-specific quirks. Things like using carriage returns instead of newlines. Utilities like vi and less currently don't convert these to newlines, which can be a pain when looking at files created in more traditional Mac-type programs. Another example is file management utilities and resource forks. I think cp, tar, etc should handle resource forks transparently by default. Yes, there's ditto - but that's not a "standard" unix utility. Plus it requires an explicit command-line option. Back when I first got my OS X machine, I setup a crontab to backup my Quicken data using tar to an NFS mounted drive on my FreeBSD machine. It ran happily until about a month later when I needed to restore a backup - and discovered that Quicken stores most of its data in the resource fork, which was left behind! Not good. Are you guys working on anything like this? If not, will you consider it now that I've mentioned it?
JH: This is a tough area since you don't want to change *too* much about what makes Mac OS X a good Unix or interoperability and ease of administration suffers, and that's very important considering how heterogeneous the Unix world tends to be, especially in higher-education. That said, I think there's still a lot we can do to increase Mac-to-Unix interoperability. One example of a great Open Source project that helps in this area is rsync_hfs, hosted on opendarwin.org. It's a careful balancing act to make sure that we do things in such a way that the Unix experience is not compromised in the process of adapting to the Mac traditions, and I think that people are definitely going to see evolution in both directions, with some traditional Mac stuff migrating more towards open standards and some Unix things which have been traditionally unwieldy getting a much-needed face lift.
Needless to say, user feedback is always an important part of making these decisions and I hope both the traditional Mac and Unix communities continue to tell us what they like and don't like about Mac OS X - that's very important to us in setting our priorities in goals at Apple, and that's not just marketspeak, it's true, so keep those cards and letters coming, folks.
[Thanks to Macslash for giving me the opportunity to do this Interview]
So in other words: Don't imagine a beowolf cluster of these things!
omnia tua castra sunt nobis
JH, was it worth it to ditch FreeBSD and have Steve FAT SLOBS EDIT your replies. Look at your soulless stripped cruddy answers.
I think you are owned, you sold out. FreeBSD kicks OS X's so hard, and you have to live with that. You left the better for your CORPORATE masters. HAHAHAHAHA. You really couldn't find a high paying job at a company where you don't have to sell your soul and mind to a company with LAME, inferior, RAIDless, SCSIless ECCmemoryless crap PCs with a junk processor?
I like FreeBSD and thank you for your time on it. I think OS X sucks hard compared to FreeBSD and think you are a pussy for leaving FreeBSD's side.
Now you get to live in shit, you have to be edited by loser apple marketing droids. HAHAHAHAHA.
Your name in history could have been glorious, a PAX ROMANA for the computing age, you could have been a Caesar. Now you are a bitch to Steve Jobs the tantric rude arrogant thief.
Rest in peace, corporate owned puss. I want money too, but my soul isn't for sale like yours is. Traitor to the greater scientific good.
FreeBSD 5.x should be ported to Motorola-un-PowerPC to show you pukes what a real OS is. We already have the equipment people actually use, x86, AMD64, IA64, Alpha.
And about building on a dual Xserve, Wow, how about building stuff on a Dual Xeon 2.8GHz with Hyperthreading - oh wait, you sold out to apple. Or a SPARC? Or IA64 or maybe even AMD64.
SELLOUT.
don't geeks go in for, ah, technical details?
Where was the technical detail in saying "Darwin's VM system has to take into account different memory usage patterns"?
(I enjoyed the article, I guess, but "geeky"?)
--Matthew
i have come to put down apple zealots once and for all. i have put together enouhg evidence to end this argument forever. Bruising by Apple Roland Miller III - and other cases against apple
.
= 60 839
.mac accounts.
t ml
.DOC reader installed. Ever. Maybe a PDF reader if I can't figure something out using google, a few nesgroups and other better-than-manuals-and-man-page sources.
.DOC is still a problem, I have noticed that documents shared even between Office X, XP and 2002 are very inconsistent. Its MSFT playing the upgrade me to fix problems game. For complicated layout and manuals, use Framaker or a LaTeX backended application or something realistic.
/etc) and old binaries included without gcc in the default install. Its only young in that Apple does not know very well how to serve people who use unix.
a tures/cw_macvspc2.htm
.Mac Today Posted by pudge on Wednesday July 17, @04:31AM Steve Mason writes "Apple has put up a .Mac FAQ up here proving that .Mac will indeed be introduced at Mac World New York. .Mac will cost $100 a year as previous rumors had reported." Yes, this means that if you don't pay Apple, your mac.com URL and email address will stop working. Some have suggested that the "switch" in Apple's new ad campaign stands for the unfortunate part of a "bait and switch." Someone should mirror that URL, it might be taken down any second now.
1 7/ 1134213&mode=nested&tid=107
t s/cpu2000.ht ml
.DOC reader installed.
.DOC is still a problem, I have noticed that documents shared even
/etc) and old binaries included without gcc in the default install. Its only young in that
.mac accounts.
= 60 839
.
One notable fact concerning Apple's customer base is that it has always tested very highly in the category of brand loyalty. "Once a Mac user, always a Mac user." Apple has depended on this customer loyalty to get it through some rough times. It could always count on a portion of the market to continue to buy Apple products and continue to upgrade with Apple products. Despite (or perhaps due to) this loyalty, Apple has subjected its customers to some decidedly anti-customer abuses.
The latest example of Apple bruising its customers is a doozy. Due to shortages of the higher speed G4 processors, Apple speed reduced its entire line by 50 MHz and kept the prices the same. On top of that, Apple unilaterally cancelled all outstanding G4 orders with instructions that customers should reorder their systems. This has the net effect of increasing everyone's cost for the same system.
Needless to say, this action produced a massive and immediate customer backlash. Based on what I have seen on the net, this uproar lasted a few hours before Apple backed down and started to rejoin reality. After about a day of total confusion and rampant rumors followed by a week of small clarifications, Apple made right and reinstated all G4 orders except the high end 500 MHz model. Those customers were offered the choice of purchasing the "new" 450 MHz model at the original 450 MHz price, which is what should have been done in the first place.
While it is possible for me to see some corporate logic behind the original decision, never the less, this bright idea should not have left the meeting room where it was hatched. It doesn't take an MBA
(obviously) to predict the firestorm that was touched off when this decision was implemented. The only positive thing I can see in this fiasco was the speed at which corrective steps were implemented. The corporation responded to its customer's will and proved somewhat nimble in the process.
Another recent example of Apple bruising was with AppleShare IP 6.2. Apple decided to charge several hundred dollars for this upgrade (the previous being 6.1.) The only problem was that aside from a few new features, it was mainly seen as a bug-fix and compatibility upgrade for MacOS 8.6 (which itself was a free upgrade to 8.5.1.) You couldn't run ASIP 6.1 on 8.6 and you couldn't run the upgrade on 8.5. Again, the reaction was very predictable: customer outrage. Apple listened to its customers and eventually made 6.2 a free update to 6.1.
You may have also have heard about Apple purposefully preventing G3 owners from installing G4 CPU upgrades with a firmware upgrade that officially solved another problem. People were again outraged when the rumor was confirmed by all of the CPU upgrade companies. The outrage keyed on false advertising and speculation that Apple released a Trojan horse.
There were unofficial rumors from anonymous Apple employees that this firmware block will be removed with Mac OS 9. However, there has been no official word from Apple concerning this issue. In the meantime, all the CPU upgrade companies have announced that they have gotten around the block and that their respective upgrade will work fine when they ship.
While Apple has responded favorably to two of these examples, all of these misfires do take a toll. Many people simply will not tolerate this sort of behavior from a major corporation. A company simply cannot afford to make too many of these types of decisions and still remain in business.
Ultimately what can be learned from these examples?
The perception of the "bottom-line" doesn't always coincide with the needs of the consumer resulting in corporate mistakes of judgement. Some of them can be bad enough to make the pages of the Laramie Daily Boomerang. I can't speculate on whether these bad decisions were based on stupidity or on over estimating the loyalty of Apple*s customers or both. Apple has taken concrete steps in most of these cases to defuse the situation. As long as Apple continues to admit that it is wrong and make things right immediately, I will still tolerate being one of its customers.
Until next time. .
dah dah dah.
Apple tried to block G3 owners from upgrading to G4. Nice guys. PowerForce G4 ZIF
The PowerForce G4 ZIF (Zero Insertion Force) is the only G4 CPU upgrade you will want to upgrade your "Beige" Power Mac G3, "G3 All-in-One" educational model, Blue and White G3's and the Yikes Motherboard Graphite G4's. The PowerForce G4 ZIF is one of the highest performance CPU products when used with "AltiVec enhanced" software. Utilizing the second generation PowerPC 7410 processor ("G4") the PowerForce G4 includes a full 1 megabyte of backside cache running at up to 220MHz.
G4 ZIF Upgrade vs. 800MHz G4 Apple: PowerForce ZIF G4 550/220/1MB Apple G4 733 Price $289 $1599
The Bottom Line: If you already have quite a bit invested in your Power Mac G3, it just makes sense to upgrade the processor rather than opting for the new G4 systems from Apple. Apple has finally eliminated all of the legacy ports with the removal of the ADB port on the new G4 systems, not to mention the removal of the serial ports, and SCSI on the Blue and White G3 systems. So the choice is clear. PowerLogix saves you hundreds of dollars over the cost of buying a new system!
PowerLogix was the first to release a solution for the G4 ROM block for Blue and White G3s.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article2.html?artnum
TITLE Firmware Update: Firmware Updates 4.1.7 and Later May Disable Out-of-Spec Third-Party RAM Article ID: Created: Modified: 60839 4/12/01 9/28/01
Read up. Apple is trying to make it harder and harder to use "out of spec" hahahaha memory. Luckily www.crucial.com always works. But imagine, a firmware update that DISABLES YOUR MEMORY.
This is a good start (the buying public is sending a message to Apple, how do the intend to GROW thier market share????????)
http://www.barefeats.com/pmddr.html - new macs slower DDR
SPEC-CPU-2000 (INT/FP)AthlonXP1800MHz 738/624 -- Pentium4 2533 MHz : 893 / 878 -- Power4 1300 MHz : 804 / 1202 -- Itanium2 1000 MHz : 807 / 1356 -- G4 1000MHz 306 / 187 (read and weep http://www.heise.de/ct/english/02/05/182/ )
SPEC-CPU-2000 (INT/FP)
AthlonXP1800MHz 738/624
Pentium4 2533 MHz : 893 / 878
Power4 1300 MHz : 804 / 1202
Itanium2 1000 MHz : 807 / 1356
G4 1000MHz 306 / 187 (read and weep http://www.heise.de/ct/english/02/05/182/ )
AthlonXP 1533Mhz
FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE
OpenSSL 0.9.6a speed 5 Apr 2001
137.7
sign verify sign/s verify/s rsa 512 bits 0.0009s 0.0001s 1109.2 14497.3 rsa 1024 bits 0.0040s 0.0002s 252.8 5308.0 rsa 2048 bits 0.0220s 0.0006s 45.6 1635.9 rsa 4096 bits 0.1419s 0.0021s 7.0 468.6 dsa 512 bits 0.0007s 0.0009s 1377.3 1161.0 dsa 1024 bits 0.0019s 0.0023s 530.2 437.7 dsa 2048 bits 0.0060s 0.0073s 165.9 137.7
P3 550MHZ x 2
FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #3
OpenSSL 0.9.6g 9 Aug 2002
39.5
sign verify sign/s verify/s
rsa 512 bits 0.0027s 0.0002s 375.7 4308.0
rsa 1024 bits 0.0131s 0.0007s 76.4 1499.7
rsa 2048 bits 0.0760s 0.0022s 13.2 451.7
rsa 4096 bits 0.5066s 0.0076s 2.0 130.8
dsa 512 bits 0.0023s 0.0028s 433.2 360.6
dsa 1024 bits 0.0064s 0.0078s 155.3 127.8
dsa 2048 bits 0.0212s 0.0253s 47.2 39.5
1GHz Motorola PPC OpenSSL 0.9.6
33.0
sign verify sign/s verify/s
rsa 512 bits 0.0024s 0.0002s 422.7 4565.7
rsa 1024 bits 0.0131s 0.0007s 76.2 1433.4
rsa 2048 bits 0.0850s 0.0025s 11.8 396.5
rsa 4096 bits 0.5872s 0.0092s 1.7 108.9
dsa 512 bits 0.0022s 0.0026s 464.3 387.9
dsa 1024 bits 0.0070s 0.0085s 142.8 117.0
dsa 2048 bits 0.0245s 0.0303s 40.7 33.0
G4 867 / 896MB / 10.1.2
24.2
sign verify sign/s verify/s
rsa 512 bits 0.0029s 0.0003s 346.3 3521.8
rsa 1024 bits 0.0172s 0.0009s 58.3 1062.2
rsa 2048 bits 0.1149s 0.0034s 8.7 293.4
rsa 4096 bits 0.8009s 0.0128s 1.2 78.3
dsa 512 bits 0.0027s 0.0034s 366.6 295.3
dsa 1024 bits 0.0094s 0.0114s 106.8 87.4
dsa 2048 bits 0.0334s 0.0413s 29.9 24.2
Mystery ClawHammer/.
signs/sec verifies/sec
rsa 512bits 965.9 12211.9
rsa1024 bits 205.0 3980.0
rsa 2048 bits 33.0 1093.3
rsa 4096 bits 4.7 288.5
I laugh at you, as i sit on FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT on an SMP box that will whip your fucking gay shit machine's ass. With a Cherry on top, I get to use win2k for crap-software.
I just installed 6C115 OS 10.2 final on a G4 with 1GB of ram. SNORE. Youd think Apple would pick up on the fact they have a slow implementation of Unix on slow and inferior hardware.
Look to IBM Power4 or Intel for salvation, Motorola sucks. Intel has a larger payroll that Motorola makes on the PPC, and it shows, losers.
You make me sick you MAC zealot maggot. I see through you. Your snarky little "hahahaha," your non chalant elitist proto-communist attitude. You make me sick. You want to legislate mediocrity because you are a communist and dont belive the biggest, fastest or most qualified should win. Feiss isn't aout MAC, It is such a stupid fag-ridden ad campaign, I as a Unix and PC user (as well as SPARC and HPPA) have noticed this CRAP. As far as feiss being cute, I would let her suck me off and I would crap on her for a nice Schei*e video. As far as SPEC marks go, truth hurts, doesnt 'it zealot? You like making Jobs richer? Keep at it losers. The day my company fired an x-apple (& x-NEXT) employee was the day things go better around the office - he was a techno nerd jerk, he wanted technology for technology's sake, not because it was useful. He failed to do his job, and we fired him. I hope you contract terminal cancer you snarky little faceless mac zealot fuck!
Project status as of Oct 1994
CMU is no longer doing general system development work on the Mach Operating System Kernel. The reseach goals of Mach were accomplished and faculty interest in OS research has moved in new directions. As a result, suppport for external users of the Mach kernel is mostly just in the form of on-line help files, documents and unlicensed code. The Mach WWW Home Page will direct you to other sources of information.
There is still some work being done at CMU on the Mach multi-server system (Mach_US) and real-time Mach. Information about both of these areas is accessible from the Mach home page. Mark Stevenson may contacted about Mach_US at jms@cs.cmu.edu. The Mach real-time group can be reached at rt-mach-request@cs.cmu.edu.
Development work on Mach is also continuing at the Open Software foundation, University of Utah's Flexmach project, Helsinki University of Technology's LITES system and the Free Software Foundation's HURD system.
Last updated on Oct, 1994 by mrt@cs.cmu.edu
Apple profits halve in Q2
Jobs preducts flatness ahead
By INQUIRER staff: Tuesday 16 July 2002, 22:05
APPLE MADE A NET profit of $32 million for its third quarter, almost half the profit it made in the same period last year, and turnover fell three per cent to $1.43 billion compared to the quarter in 2001.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4467
Funny, a BSD platform hanging in the balance because it fails an an MSFT VAR. Its not BSDs fault, trust me, its Apple.
Will Microsoft dump Mac support? http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4485
Two firms slag off each other
By INQUIRER staff: Wednesday 17 July 2002, 12:22
IS MICROSOFT CONTEMPLATING ditching support for Apple Macs? That's the thrust of an article that appeared on Wininfo a day or two back, but if Microsoft is getting out of the Mac market, it's not quite yet.
And all is not well in other respects, reports Mac Rumors, which has posted what it says is an Apple FAQ saying people will have to pay for
Microsoft has already prepared a press release to time with the Macworld Expo saying that it has announced a Microsoft Office V.x "triple header", this being an announcement which offers better mobility with Palm handheld for Entourage X, a way to buy Office v.X cheaper, and some Windows compatibility with the RDC client.
The Wininfo article, however, quotes Kevin Browne, who runs the Mac Business Unit at Microsoft as saying Apple hasn't made much of an effort to promote Mac OSX, even though there are opportunities.
He is quoted as saying that "if things don't dramatically turn round", it might be Goodnight Mr Chips for Steve Jobs firm.
But the same article says that Apple blames Microsoft for sales problems with Office v.X.
Jobs and Microsoft's Bill Gates have traditionally had a somewhat strained relationship. Is this the beginning of the beginning of the end between the two companies?
Wininfo.
Mac Rumors is providing a blow-by-blow account of what's happening at MacExpo on the site link above - it seems Apple may well announce support for Nforce 2, too.
On the Nvidia site, here, you'll see that Digital Vibrance Control is "currently unavailable on Mac systems", which is more than just a hint, we guess. *
*JOBS KICKS off MacWorld Expo at the Javitz Center at 09:00 Eastern time. There will be a live Webcast using Quicktime, natch, here.
Note: The Dell 1650 and 2650 are both cheaper, the 2650 has SMT, and ECC (and nice linux ecc support as well, it logs ECC errors in syslog). They also include onboard RAID(option via 7899 asic) and a U160 AIC-7899 by default. And you can buy retail CPUs and retail memory for Dells often at half the price without voiding the warranty.
Apple charges $500 per 120GB EIDE drive. HAHAHAHA.
Apple is right about one thing, that Alpha has existed for some time, but have you ever tried actually buying an Alpha? Its hard, I know an engineer who works for
DEC->/Compaq->/HP, and I was dying to buy one, and he couldnt find
anyone to call me
about getting one.
Apple's New 1U servers: Sorry. Doesn't fit well in a market where the Dell 1550/1650 and 2550 and 2650 exist. Sorry. THEY DON'T PUBLISH SPEC numbers. Apple is a dying breed, I just recently tried to revive my interest in them only to be disappointed. The Motorola PPC architecture is embarrassingly slow, and they always are quick to point out the near-useless Altivec and some obscure filter in Photoshop, but its not true. I have a Mac, several PCs and a SPARC at *home*, so trust me people, this box is a bore. And OS X and Open ClosedROM make putting regular memory, disks and CPU upgrades NEAR-IMPOSSIBLE, they try to block it so you have to buy the same part from them 3x the cost. And the Dell 530 Dual P4-Xeon with SMT buries the fastest Mac by almost a factor of two. OS X is no great shakes as of yet because even though most of the porting off of Classic has been done, there are annoying remnants of classic everywhere, including a gamut of Apple utilities. These are notoriously the worst Administrator-unfriendly boxes in the industry, and I have used a few boxen in my time. OS X's Darwin kernel will be sorely eclipsed by Linux 2.6, and 2.4.X is already superior in all the ways I can tell (This isnt to say BSD it bad, but I dont think this OS demands a PREMIUM). I tried YellowDog, Madrake and Debian on PPC as well, and they ran (even with aggressive G3
optimizations) rather
poorly - but interestingly far faster than native OS X.
This is a dying gasp of air from a dead Unix vendor, who has had to turn themselves into a Microsoft VAR (most popular Mac Application: Microsoft Office X). If you have an insatiable fetish for PPC, DON*T. Wait for Hammer. Remind yourself about SMT, and 2.8GHz clock speeds before you go pay for obsolete/deprecated silicon. And the term RISC? Pathetic. I happily resell our product on a 1650 and 2650. We "configured" a Mac box because we were genuinely curious. We laughed at the final price and moved on. This isn*t a troll, or a flame * its reality. What this box does can be done with a 1650, with redundant power supplies, with SCSI and hardware raid build ON BOARD, dual gigabit NICs onboard, dual 1400 MHZ/512cache Tualatin (with SPEC numbers to gauge the performance
by) (2650 gets high clock Xeons), two 64bit/66Mhz slots, onboard video, console redirection, USB, etc. And for half the price. And you can use retail Intel CPUs,(cheap), retail hard drives (if you don*t want to buy the Dell ones at a modest premium), and retail Crucial.com memory (the same memory Dell uses for Half the price). All in all, you get a box, for half the price, with twice the features and performance. And this is coming from a person who doesn*t even LIKE Dell. (I feel I can always build better more reliable systems than most of the PC vendors.) BBBBBBZT. Apple, you lost, you lost, you will always be niche because OS X isn't where it needs to be * on an X86.
TO give a better link for you, since you will have trouble finding this on your own, I'll put you right where you need to be to see Motorola PPC chips are, well, so horrible they wont publish industry standard Specmarks. http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/cpu2000.h
Sorry. Apple. Steve Jobs keeps them in business but his ego is trash. I know people who work there, personally . You pay for his ego.
Ok. Publish your findings. No, I didnt think so. So its as conjective as my assertations, which are based on my whim in addition to evideince (or lacktherof), and the reading of the CPU Report, EE Times, etc. I'm into this industry, and unless you are a zealot, you would know PPC is IBM now. Motorola is in the dirt.
Bzzt. I like NeXT. Ahead of its time, over priced. Darwin is useless, I have 1.4.1, its crap. OS X is nice looking, but it is *very* easy to "piss" the system off, its package manager is so bad compared to RPM I wont even start, and it is, as as what I consider a *nix to be, wholly inadequate and incomplete. Next.
About being content free, thats a snarky, trollish accusation. Now why dont you use Purify on yourself and remove all the said cruft and actually say something in Apple's defense besides naming Mach 3.0+ (like if it was 5.0+ would it make a shit bit of difference.) I hate zealotry.
And about computing pleasure. This isnt fafenugen or a driving experience, dude, its about stuff WORKING, well, for the lowest cost with the cheapest parts. There is no sex appeal in server administration.
Funny, everytime I have gone to a Mac shop they have, for as long as I can ever remember, always, ALWAYS had NT based servers. Unilaterally.
And I saw a few Mac shops in my time in New York.
You know what, not that I like NT, but they worked more reliably (generally Compaq
servers) than the Macs did. (Mostly these days non parity memory and no SCSI anymore, its a PC with horrible Mot-PPC).
Funny. When I run a linux or *nix or NT based server I dont have a
For those wondering why
As far as OS X being "young", I think its probably the oldest feeling Unix there is. Old kernel, old Unix specification (I happen to like what I find in a SYS V style
I gave OS X a fair shot on a G3 with 1GB of memory. Its good. I wated to use it instead of Microsoft crap for home use, but I wouldnt switch from Win2k after that. They also block CPU upgrade cards, which are expensive. They try to block 3rd party memory. The included keyboard and mouse always sucks. And they try not to partition non-apple drives with Drive Setup, which is the WORST partitioning utility, and Apple's partition maps are screwed up and stupid, and trying to run OS X without classic is diffcult because so many fools still have ported thier stuff to OS X.
I'll stick to PCs for home computing, and think about other vendors for servers.
I gave OS X a fair shake. I have many machines at home and with Gnucleus I was able to get just about every Mac app compiled native for OS X in existence. (Thank god I wont be keeping any of them or buying any of them - try before you buy, people)
I have to say that the total lack of incumbent middleware is horrible with OS X. Its barely an OS out of the box. I hate having to boot from a CD to manage anything, and its multiboot handling is inferior. The Norton set of tools is pathetically weak for the money. Office X is admittedly excellent. But thats it. IE was mentioned not too long ago as rendering incorrectly and having a huge security flaw that is fixed in 5.2.1, but the response from MSFT took much longer than they do for x86.
If OS X was ported to x86 (looks like it has) I would buy it. Period. Forget buying a PPC ripp off machine though.
I noticed on the OS X cd there is i386 directories littering the place and darwin
(hahahah) works on like one computer with an intel chip deep in the belly of Apple, but they are not trying to make Darwin/X86 more appeling than ANY ANY of the other BSDs, they all destroy Darwin in useablility, even when you get darwin from http://gnu-darwin.sourceforge.net/.
I came, I saw, I mastered it, I left. Its BORING.
And as far as IPFW. IPF for OpenBSD is out. and there are no decent APP-firewalls for OS X (Firewalk sucks), Brickhouse is a joke of a GUI.
I am thinking Kerio Winroute/Personal Firewall as a base comparison. The fact nothing analogous exists in Mac OS X land make this platform more unuseable. Also, if Apple like fit and finish on Unix, why dont they make the more complicated things useable througha GUI (like Brickhouse did for IPF). Noo, the only people Apple caters to is those who die thier hair purple and sucks on pacifier and laugh at baby rattles while they are e-tarded from thier last bout with Xtasy after the cool rave for mac zealots.
1 - Nope, not a troll opinion. People trying to name trolls are often themselves trolling by crying wolf.
2 - Pirate, no. I deleted the software. They are liars because they say on their product literature that the product can do things it simply cannot. Do you buy a car without a test drive. NO. Do lots of states have cool-off periods. Yes. Are you are one of those inferior software developers that cant let people try before they buy because you cant deliver on your promise? Or you just and advocate for that because you benefit somehow?
3 - OS X would be easier to eat (its cheap at $130.) if I could use it on a cheap Intel box. Then I could leave it there, tinker with it, do more to make what I like about other Unices available to OS X. I borrowed a Mac G3 (350/1MB cache, 1GB memory, 15GB HDD/2MB
buffer) and * Linux ran better (Debian, Yellowdog and Mandrake * I did try them all) , * GNU-Darwin was near-useless compared to the Linuxes * let alone that pile of garbage apple calls Darwin 1.4.1, and * Mac OS X was horribly slow and clunky. I also find that Administration in OS X is counterintuitive.
Now to address your pathetic complexes. Your quoting is interesting. You were upset about my thread(s) and were looking to pick apart any of my comments. Grasping at straws. First tactic you used was name calling / labeling. Cheap shot. Then you tried to confuse good consumer strategy (protecting my wallet from thieving/lying software developers who often sell your privacy to marketing companies, and fail to deliver proper support for software and force version upgrades that should be called service packs) with piracy, and thus , you were attempting to assassinate my character. I would never, and have never, created revenue for myself, any of the businesses I have worked for with unlicensed or pirated software. I am an advocate for paying for what you use to generate revenue for yourself. I utterly resent your insinuations. Now you try and hit your own self justified home run by saying "Nah, wah, why would you want OS X if you don*t like it wash." I don*t mind the software, I think it is a meritorious endeavor to have a polished UI on Unix. I don*t see the point in cornering it to a pass* , deprecated, slow SPECmarkless overpriced platform. I would appreciate it far more if it would be ported to x86, but alas, Microsoft would pull the Office X plug because it would compete (rather well I might add) with Windows XP. Therefore, Apple is a Microsoft VAR, their existence is to stay afloat and give their shareholders money, not innovate anything useful in the community.
Sorry I wasn*t fooled by them like you were. I resent you, you are alike Mao, Stalin, Hitler. The experts agree, censorship works. If I am a fool, let me foolishness speak for itself * as writing on this wall* * but you are far more sinister than fool, you want to dictate, excise, remove. You want the world to be as you see it, and cannot accept a subjective opinion because you are probably sexless and very pathetic. I resent you.
I RESENT ALL OF YOU APPLE MAC LUNATIC ZEALOTS!
Zealot. You are a lying Zealot. I have a G3 no one wanted. I got OS 10.2 running. It sucks ass, and G3 are slower than pig-shit. The OS is not Unix power user friendly. Its packaging system is HORRIBLE. You don*t know what you are talking about * AT ALL.
http://www.heise.de/ct/english/02/05/182/
Go here to see it G4-1000, spec INT of 306 (SPEC-CPU2000), P3-1000 spec INT of 309. Hhahaha.
Dual G4 1000 Macs are getting DESTROYED by a SINGLE P4 in benchmarks. Zealots, deny this one. http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/07_jul/fe
"Apple CEO Steve Jobs said this week that his company would consider moving to Intel chips, but that he would wait until at least 2003 because the transition to Mac OS X was more important. But with the speed of Power PC hardware increasingly falling behind Intel's chips--The Pentium 4 will hit 3 GHz this year--Apple would be wise to do a bit of research. I recommend AMD's upcoming 64-bit Opteron, which will give Apple a technological leg up on Windows and, perhaps, offer them Windows compatibility through the Opteron's full compatibility with 32-bit x86 code. Come on, Apple: Do the right thing." Read the blurb on WinInformant. Read more for a short commentary.
"The dual Athlon is still the fastest PC we've tested, but the single Intel P4 2.53 GHz machine runs a close second, and even beats the dual Athlon on some of the tests. And, as expected, the Mac dual 1GHz G4 could not even come close to keeping up with these two PCs. Even though the P4 machine has only a single processor, it was easy for it to leave the dual-processor Mac far behind." Read the benchmarks at DigitalVideoEditing.
A quick comparison, when using the better compilers for the x86 CPUs:
Integer Results:
Athlon 1666 (2000+) : 697
P4 2200 : 790
G4 1000 : 306
PIII 667 : 310
Floating Point Results:
Athlon 1666 : 596
P4 2200 : 779
G4 1000: 187
PIII 667 : 222
For the people who argue that Altivec was not enabled. This is true, but it is also unfair.
The compiler they used, gcc 2.95.2, doesn't know how to use MMX or SSE either, and barely knows how to use the PPro floating-point instructions FCOMI and FCMOVcc.
Fuck those Mongoloid retards. Never in my life have I seen a royal fuckup as them not being able to whip MSFT ass with OS X. But they had to fuck-face try to be a hardware vendor in a world of cheap chink knockoffs (where the hardware is commoditized to the point where there is little quality variance) where even Compaq died and shriveled up. Fucking idiots.
"Will Microsoft dump Mac support? Two firms slag off each other By INQUIRER staff: Wednesday 17 July 2002, 12:22 " http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4485
"Apple profits halve in Q2 Jobs predicts flatness ahead By INQUIRER staff: Tuesday 16 July 2002, 22:05 " http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4467
" "bait and switch." Apple: Apple to Unveil
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/07/
Zealots. He used the word "magic" and excused unethical business practice, ignore their plunging profits and growing customer dissatisfaction, their complete loss of the educations market only to have their stake in things being upheld by horn-rimmed-glass wearing elitist "artists" and "musicians" who have to make it look like if you create art or music on anything but a Mac its amateurish and unprofessional because they don*t know what the fuck they are doing and are being shown up by talented/poor people with PCs.
I have *never* met a Mac user that has taught me one things about computing. Ever.
Steve Jobs is egotistical, and he chose to not take on XP head to head with OS X. Now OS X is relegated to a niche processor, once Adobe and MSFT pull the plug (notice Adobe took considerable time to get OS X versions of their stuff out the door with CALL-HOME on all their apps for the Mac) there wont be much to speak of in terms of software. If OS X was for x86, there would be sex appeal, the would make more money and the x86 would finally get an Open Firmware and a vendor with a deep respect for building the right things (an the wrong video chipsets) on the motherboards.
The Apple ][ was it for them. After that, the TRASH-80 seems like a holy crusade.
I have a G3 here beside me, and I can't upgrade the CPU officially, they wont give a 4.X firmware for it, so much for OPEN-firmware, its slow as fucking SHIT with this horribly slow clock and HALF SPEED cache, and there is no SCSI. It*s a PC with a slow CPU.
I never had any intention of running MacOSX server on it. Instead I wanted to run NetBSD.
The Xserve uses Motorola 7455 processor with 2MB of L3 cache and PC2100 RAM. Unfortunately, even though this is a "server" class machine, Apple skimped and did not allow you to use ECC memory. For a datacenter machine, this seems remarkably short sighted.
While the machine is quick, it still lags behind the high-end P4 and Athlon's when it comes to doing NetBSD builds. It is slightly slower the same speed as 1.4GHz Athlon.
If you need a lot of powerpc computing in a small form factor, the Xserve is a nice box but x86 still has it beat when it comes to price/performance.
One last thing, the Xserve is exceptionally loud. Granted it is a 1U box but it is louder than other 1U I've ever heard.
After having a (single CPU) Xserve to play for the past week, I thought I'd try to interject some of my experience with it.
I have to say that the Xserve is not the first dual processor RISC 1U machine. The Alpha powered CS20 precedes by well over a year (which can have two 833MHz 21264 (EV67) cpus).
Note: The Dell 1650 and 2650 are both cheaper, the 2650 has SMT, and ECC (and nice linux
ecc support as well, it logs ECC errors in syslog). They also include onboard RAID(option
via 7899 asic) and a U160 AIC-7899 by default. And you can buy retail CPUs and retail
memory for Dells often at half the price without voiding the warranty.
Apple charges $500 per 120GB EIDE drive. HAHAHAHA.
Apple is right about one thing, that Alpha has existed for some time, but have you ever
tried actually buying an Alpha? Its hard, I know an engineer who works for
DEC->/Compaq->/HP, and I was dying to buy one, and he couldnt find anyone to call me
about getting one.
Apple's New 1U servers: Sorry. Doesn't fit well in a market where the Dell 1550/1650 and
2550 and 2650 exist. Sorry. THEY DON'T PUBLISH SPEC numbers. Apple is a dying breed, I
just recently tried to revive my interest in them only to be disappointed. The Motorola
PPC architecture is embarrassingly slow, and they always are quick to point out the
near-useless Altivec and some obscure filter in Photoshop, but its not true. I have a Mac,
several PCs and a SPARC at *home*, so trust me people, this box is a bore. And OS X and
Open ClosedROM make putting regular memory, disks and CPU upgrades NEAR-IMPOSSIBLE, they
try to block it so you have to buy the same part from them 3x the cost. And the Dell 530
Dual P4-Xeon with SMT buries the fastest Mac by almost a factor of two.
OS X is no great shakes as of yet because even though most of the porting off of Classic
has been done, there are annoying remnants of classic everywhere, including a gamut of
Apple utilities. These are notoriously the worst Administrator-unfriendly boxes in the
industry, and I have used a few boxen in my time. OS X's Darwin kernel will be sorely
eclipsed by Linux 2.6, and 2.4.X is already superior in all the ways I can tell (This isnt
to say BSD it bad, but I dont think this OS demands a PREMIUM). I tried YellowDog, Madrake
and Debian on PPC as well, and they ran (even with aggressive G3 optimizations) rather
poorly - but interestingly far faster than native OS X.
This is a dying gasp of air from a dead Unix vendor, who has had to turn themselves into a
Microsoft VAR (most popular Mac Application: Microsoft Office X).
If you have an insatiable fetish for PPC, DON*T. Wait for Hammer. Remind yourself about
SMT, and 2.8GHz clock speeds before you go pay for obsolete/deprecated silicon. And the
term RISC? Pathetic.
I happily resell our product on a 1650 and 2650. We "configured" a Mac box
because we were genuinely curious. We laughed at the final price and moved on.
This isn*t a troll, or a flame * its reality. What this box does can be done with a 1650,
with redundant power supplies, with SCSI and hardware raid build ON BOARD, dual gigabit
NICs onboard, dual 1400 MHZ/512cache Tualatin (with SPEC numbers to gauge the performance
by) (2650 gets high clock Xeons), two 64bit/66Mhz slots, onboard video, console
redirection, USB, etc. And for half the price. And you can use retail Intel CPUs,(cheap),
retail hard drives (if you don*t want to buy the Dell ones at a modest premium), and
retail Crucial.com memory (the same memory Dell uses for Half the price). All in all, you
get a box, for half the price, with twice the features and performance. And this is coming
from a person who doesn*t even LIKE Dell. (I feel I can always build better more reliable
systems than most of the PC vendors.)
BBBBBBZT. Apple, you lost, you lost, you will always be niche because OS X isn't where it
needs to be * on an X86.
TO give a better link for you, since you will have trouble finding this on your own, I'll put you right where you need to be to see Motorola PPC chips are, well, so horrible they wont publish industry standard Specmarks.
http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/resul
Sorry. Apple. Steve Jobs keeps them in business but his ego is trash. I know people who work there, personally . You pay for his ego.
Ok. Publish your findings. No, I didnt think so. So its as conjective as my assertations,
which are based on my whim in addition to evideince (or lacktherof), and the reading of
the CPU Report, EE Times, etc. I'm into this industry, and unless you are a zealot, you
would know PPC is IBM now. Motorola is in the dirt.
Bzzt. I like NeXT. Ahead of its time, over priced. Darwin is useless, I have 1.4.1, its
crap. OS X is nice looking, but it is *very* easy to "piss" the system off, its
package manager is so bad compared to RPM I wont even start, and it is, as as what I
consider a *nix to be, wholly inadequate and incomplete. Next.
About being content free, thats a snarky, trollish accusation. Now why dont you use Purify
on yourself and remove all the said cruft and actually say something in Apple's defense
besides naming Mach 3.0+ (like if it was 5.0+ would it make a shit bit of difference.) I
hate zealotry.
And about computing pleasure. This isnt fafenugen or a driving experience, dude, its about
stuff WORKING, well, for the lowest cost with the cheapest parts. There is no sex appeal
in server administration.
Funny, everytime I have gone to a Mac shop they have, for as long as I can ever remember,
always, ALWAYS had NT based servers. Unilaterally.
And I saw a few Mac shops in my time in New York.
You know what, not that I like NT, but they worked more reliably (generally Compaq
servers) than the Macs did. (Mostly these days non parity memory and no SCSI anymore, its
Funny. When I run a linux or *nix or NT based server I dont have a
Ever. Maybe a PDF reader if I can't figure something out using google, a few nesgroups and
other better-than-manuals-and-man-page sources.
For those wondering why
between Office X, XP and 2002 are very inconsistent. Its MSFT playing the upgrade me to
fix problems game. For complicated layout and manuals, use Framaker or a LaTeX backended
application or something realistic.
As far as OS X being "young", I think its probably the oldest feeling Unix there
is. Old kernel, old Unix specification (I happen to like what I find in a SYS V style
Apple does not know very well how to serve people who use unix.
I gave OS X a fair shot on a G3 with 1GB of memory. Its good. I wated to use it instead of
Microsoft crap for home use, but I wouldnt switch from Win2k after that. They also block
CPU upgrade cards, which are expensive. They try to block 3rd party memory. The included
keyboard and mouse always sucks. And they try not to partition non-apple drives with Drive
Setup, which is the WORST partitioning utility, and Apple's partition maps are screwed up
and stupid, and trying to run OS X without classic is diffcult because so many fools still
have ported thier stuff to OS X.
I'll stick to PCs for home computing, and think about other vendors for servers.
IS MICROSOFT CONTEMPLATING ditching support for Apple Macs?
That's the thrust of an article that appeared on Wininfo a day or two back, but if
Microsoft is getting out of the Mac market, it's not quite yet.
And all is not well in other respects, reports Mac Rumors, which has posted what it says
is an Apple FAQ saying people will have to pay for
Microsoft has already prepared a press release to time with the Macworld Expo saying that
it has announced a Microsoft Office V.x "triple header", this being an
announcement which offers better mobility with Palm handheld for Entourage X, a way to buy
Office v.X cheaper, and some Windows compatibility with the RDC client.
The Wininfo article, however, quotes Kevin Browne, who runs the Mac Business Unit at
Microsoft as saying Apple hasn't made much of an effort to promote Mac OSX, even though
there are opportunities.
He is quoted as saying that "if things don't dramatically turn round", it might
be Goodnight Mr Chips for Steve Jobs firm.
But the same article says that Apple blames Microsoft for sales problems with Office
v.X.
Jobs and Microsoft's Bill Gates have traditionally had a somewhat strained relationship.
Is this the beginning of the beginning of the end between the two companies?
Wininfo.
Mac Rumors is providing a blow-by-blow account of what's happening at MacExpo on the site
link above - it seems Apple may well announce support for Nforce 2, too.
On the Nvidia site, here, you'll see that Digital Vibrance Control is "currently
unavailable on Mac systems", which is more than just a hint, we guess. *
*JOBS KICKS off MacWorld Expo at the Javitz Center at 09:00 Eastern time. There will be a
live Webcast using Quicktime, natch, here.
This is a good start (the buying public is sending a message to Apple, how do the intend
to GROW thier market share????????)
Apple profits halve in Q2
Jobs preducts flatness ahead
By INQUIRER staff: Tuesday 16 July 2002, 22:05
APPLE MADE A NET profit of $32 million for its third quarter, almost half the profit it
made in the same period last year, and turnover fell three per cent to $1.43 billion
compared to the quarter in 2001.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4467
http://docs.info.apple.com/article2.html?artnum
TITLE Firmware Update: Firmware Updates 4.1.7 and Later May Disable Out-of-Spec Third-Party RAM Article ID: Created: Modified: 60839 4/12/01 9/28/01
Read up. Apple is trying to make it harder and harder to use "out of spec" hahahaha memory. Luckily www.crucial.com always works. But imagine, a firmware update that DISABLES YOUR MEMORY.
Apple tried to block G3 owners from upgrading to G4. Nice guys.
PowerForce G4 ZIF
The PowerForce G4 ZIF (Zero Insertion Force) is the only G4 CPU upgrade you will want to upgrade your "Beige" Power Mac G3, "G3 All-in-One" educational model, Blue and White G3's and the Yikes Motherboard Graphite G4's. The PowerForce G4 ZIF is one of the highest performance CPU products when used with "AltiVec enhanced" software. Utilizing the second generation PowerPC 7410 processor ("G4") the PowerForce G4 includes a full 1 megabyte of backside cache running at up to 220MHz.
G4 ZIF Upgrade vs. 800MHz G4 Apple: PowerForce ZIF G4 550/220/1MB Apple G4 733 Price $289 $1599
The Bottom Line: If you already have quite a bit invested in your Power Mac G3, it just makes sense to upgrade the processor rather than opting for the new G4 systems from Apple. Apple has finally eliminated all of the legacy ports with the removal of the ADB port on the new G4 systems, not to mention the removal of the serial ports, and SCSI on the Blue and White G3 systems. So the choice is clear. PowerLogix saves you hundreds of dollars over the cost of buying a new system!
PowerLogix was the first to release a solution for the G4 ROM block for Blue and White G3s.
Bruising by Apple
Roland Miller III
One notable fact concerning Apple's customer base is that it has always tested very highly in the category of brand loyalty. "Once a Mac user, always a Mac user." Apple has depended on this customer loyalty to get it through some rough times. It could always count on a portion of the market to continue to buy Apple products and continue to upgrade with Apple products. Despite (or perhaps due to) this loyalty, Apple has subjected its customers to some decidedly anti-customer abuses.
The latest example of Apple bruising its customers is a doozy. Due to shortages of the higher speed G4 processors, Apple speed reduced its entire line by 50 MHz and kept the prices the same. On top of that, Apple unilaterally cancelled all outstanding G4 orders with instructions that customers should reorder their systems. This has the net effect of increasing everyone's cost for the same system.
Needless to say, this action produced a massive and immediate customer backlash. Based on what I have seen on the net, this uproar lasted a few hours before Apple backed down and started to rejoin reality. After about a day of total confusion and rampant rumors followed by a week of small clarifications, Apple made right and reinstated all G4 orders except the high end 500 MHz model. Those customers were offered the choice of purchasing the "new" 450 MHz model at the original 450 MHz price, which is what should have been done in the first place.
While it is possible for me to see some corporate logic behind the original decision, never the less, this bright idea should not have left the meeting room where it was hatched. It doesn't take an MBA (obviously) to predict the firestorm that was touched off when this decision was implemented. The only positive thing I can see in this fiasco was the speed at which corrective steps were implemented. The corporation responded to its customer's will and proved somewhat nimble in the process.
Another recent example of Apple bruising was with AppleShare IP 6.2. Apple decided to charge several hundred dollars for this upgrade (the previous being 6.1.) The only problem was that aside from a few new features, it was mainly seen as a bug-fix and compatibility upgrade for MacOS 8.6 (which itself was a free upgrade to 8.5.1.) You couldn't run ASIP 6.1 on 8.6 and you couldn't run the upgrade on 8.5. Again, the reaction was very predictable: customer outrage. Apple listened to its customers and eventually made 6.2 a free update to 6.1.
You may have also have heard about Apple purposefully preventing G3 owners from installing G4 CPU upgrades with a firmware upgrade that officially solved another problem. People were again outraged when the rumor was confirmed by all of the CPU upgrade companies. The outrage keyed on false advertising and speculation that Apple released a Trojan horse.
There were unofficial rumors from anonymous Apple employees that this firmware block will be removed with Mac OS 9. However, there has been no official word from Apple concerning this issue. In the meantime, all the CPU upgrade companies have announced that they have gotten around the block and that their respective upgrade will work fine when they ship.
While Apple has responded favorably to two of these examples, all of these misfires do take a toll. Many people simply will not tolerate this sort of behavior from a major corporation. A company simply cannot afford to make too many of these types of decisions and still remain in business.
Ultimately what can be learned from these examples?
The perception of the "bottom-line" doesn't always coincide with the needs of the consumer resulting in corporate mistakes of judgment. Some of them can be bad enough to make the pages of the Laramie Daily Boomerang. I can't speculate on whether these bad decisions were based on stupidity or on over estimating the loyalty of Apple*s customers or both. Apple has taken concrete steps in most of these cases to defuse the situation. As long as Apple continues to admit that it is wrong and make things right immediately, I will still tolerate being one of its customers.
Until next time. .
It wasn't meant to be a troll. And thank you for your honesty.
I gave OS X a fair shake. I have many machines at home and with Gnucleus I was able to get
just about every Mac app compiled native for OS X in existence. (Thank god I wont be
keeping any of them or buying any of them - try before you buy, people)
I have to say that the total lack of incumbent middleware is horrible with OS X. Its
barely an OS out of the box. I hate having to boot from a CD to manage anything, and its
multiboot handling is inferior. The Norton set of tools is pathetically weak for the
money. Office X is admittedly excellent. But that's it. IE was mentioned not too long ago
as rendering incorrectly and having a huge security flaw that is fixed in 5.2.1, but the
response from MSFT took much longer than they do for x86.
If OS X was ported to x86 (looks like it has) I would buy it. Period. Forget buying a PPC
ripp off machine though.
I noticed on the OS X cd there is i386 directories littering the place and Darwin
(hahahah) works on like one computer with an intel chip deep in the belly of Apple, but
they are not trying to make Darwin/X86 more appealing than ANY ANY of the other BSDs, they
all destroy Darwin in usability, even when you get Darwin from
http://gnu-darwin.sourceforge.net/.
I came, I saw, I mastered it, I left. Its BORING.
And as far as IPFW. IPF for OpenBSD is out. and there are no decent APP-firewalls for OS X
(Firewalk sucks), Brickhouse is a joke of a GUI.
I am thinking Kerio Winroute/Personal Firewall as a base comparison. The fact nothing
analogous exists in Mac OS X land make this platform more unusable. Also, if Apple like
fit and finish on Unix, why dont they make the more complicated things useable through
GUI (like Brickhouse did for IPF). Noo, the only people Apple caters to is those who die
their hair purple and sucks on pacifier and laugh at baby rattles while they are e-tarded
from their last bout with Xtasy after the cool rave for mac zealots.
: We can forget about this because its a pipe dream and it wont ever happen and it wont ever happen because its a pipe dream.
I think its clear its a pipe dream, we can forget about it because its a pipedreamery factory pumping out pipes and dreams.
: PIPE DREAM
: openfirmware is worst
its like you get a command line
: anything apple is worse
: its poop
: of something worse than unuseable
: you can run like 10 OSes on a pc
: well even suns have openfirmware
: its not like clear why its good
: crapple is like 3 oses, tops
: alpha SRM is good
: linBIOS (pipe Dream) would be good
: repairing remote filesystems over the network isnt gay
: like a real SRM would let you do
: but not going to happen in PC LAND
: its a pipe dream
: and openfirmware, while technically correct, is CRAP
: FUCKING CRAP
: zzzz
: it is
: its all crap
: like IOS is better for a boot loader
: but crapple is the crap of the crap
: cream of the crap
: creamy pussy
: nasty dirty
: creaming crud
Uh, why don't you just use any SCSI- or FCAL-connected array that you want then? You could use all the same SCSI disk arrays (with hardware RAID, etc.) that you use with any FreeBSD box with any Mac OS X box. And yeah, it doesn't have ECC. It doesn't have redundant power supplies. It doesn't have a lot of stuff. The product is in its infancy! Apple is just BEGINNING its enterprise strategy...and even at this early stage, people who would NEVER have bought ANY Apple hardware before are now snapping it up, for enterprise datacenters no less! For Oracle development! For biosciences computing! And you know what? We're deploying Mac OS X Server, Solaris, AIX, Linux, and Windows 2000/.NET, but NOT FreeBSD.
And since Mac OS X has vastly eclipsed the number of FreeBSD systems in use, or will ever have in use, I'd say that's a "wider audience". Even "wider than a goasemon's asshole", as you put it.
I hope you really are trolling and that you don't believe what you say, because you apparently have no idea what you're talking about. For a good, usable GUI on top of ANY UNIX, BSD or otherwise, Mac OS X/Mac OS X Server is the only game in town. Sure, Mac OS X has a long way to go. But it's done the most for UNIX (and BSD) adoption that any UNIX (or BSD) ever has. And soon, Darwin will be synced with FreeBSD 5.x functionality, so then, by your logic, Mac OS X will be infinitely better than FreeBSD, since it will be everything FreeBSD is (with the exception of the hardware it runs on), PLUS a real productivity OS that normal people can actually use! Then there's the whole Server side of the equation, where I can feel free to update my core OS and do security patches on OS X Server without going through the test-and-backout nightmare my Solaris/AIX/Linux colleagues do. Or reshare NFS filesystems out via SAMBA with the click of a button. And it only gets better.
Hardware-wise, you spouted off a bunch of shit about run-of-the-mill AMD hardware. No thanks, I'll pass. Then you spouted off a bunch of shit about 64-bit processors...you may want to take a look at the IBM PowerPC 970..., which, by many accounts, may trounce the passé 64-bit processors you list.
If you want to stick with the commandline (which has nothing to do with Mac OS X's main markets) or the Gnome/KDE amateur hour, go for it.
...just can't handle it can you? And oh yeah, it really hurts to be on the losing side. It kinda "hurts" like sex "hurts".
You expect home/academic productivity users to use FreeBSD as a desktop? Now THAT'S laughable...
hi fat, zit ridden, unemployed, living at home, loser, sexless, lord of the rings trekker star wars fucker. your apple kind are the first to be laid off. the switch campaign is all lies, market share has not changed. most apple hardware users are still on OS 9 because they dont want a fat, fucked up piece of shit forced upgrade operating system on already slow hardware. you are a sad, fat, no talent wanna be loser typing this crap to me in internet explorer. how does it feel to know that. how? how do you like knowing you are the fat one, and im in shape. i get to fuck pussy, you get to fuck yourself to tenticle rape and japanese anime. you get to collect unemployemnt i pay for while i get paid to write this to you, quite a bit more than you were making than an HTML "programmer" before your .com laid you off, you fucking ass. the truth, is sad, for you. ahh. i feel the urge to defecate.
Apple laptops are effectively unusable for unix users.
I am a long-time Unix user. That means I need to have the Ctrl key to the left of the A key. This is a genuine need, not merely a want; it is based upon ergonomics. The Ctrl key is heavily used in unix, and it must be easily accessable. It cannot be off in the lower left corner of the keyboard where it is difficult to get at, and where it distorts the position of your left hand such that you can't easily type other keys while holding the Ctrl key down.
Apple desktop keyboards are now all USB. They are all OK. The CapsLock key can be re-mapped into a Ctrl key.
Unfortunately, even in this modern age, all Apple laptops have built-in ADB keyboards. The ADB keyboard is broken-by-design. It is, in general, not possible to remap the CapsLock key into a Ctrl key.
There are some exceptions, but they are horrible kludges. They are horrible kludges because the original design of the ADB keyboard was a horrible kludge. The correct solution would be for Apple to re-design their laptop motherboards to use built-in USB keyboards. This hasn't happened yet. If you run Linux, use Debian's solution. For Mac OS X users, uControl works. There are no solutions (that I know of) for either NetBSD or OpenBSD. Please note once again that the "solutions" above are in fact kludges, because of the original bad design of the ADB keyboard.
Apple provides a technical note on how to remap the keyboard, but provides no solution to the hardware problems caused by the design of the ADB keyboard. This tech note helps foreign language users, but does nothing for the CapsLock/Ctrl problem.
Apple is (currently) ignoring Unix users! This is not merely speculation on my part. In an on-going email exchange I am having with an Apple employee (whom I won't name) in their marketing department, the Apple marketing person directly stated to me that Apple was catering to their historic Mac customers, and is purposely ignoring the Unix market. He also claimed that Apple would soon start paying more attention to the Unix market. I won't hold my breath. Apple has been ignoring Unix users for more than 12 years. I expect that trend to continue. (Also note that my Apple contact indicated that Macs would never ship with a 3-button mouse, even though Apple intended to port almost all X-window software and deliver it either on a CD/DVD or installed directly on each Mac's hard drive. How Unix friendly is a 1-button mouse with X programs that often require 3 buttons?)
Apple has now lost two opportunities to sell me hardware. I really wanted an Apple laptop for their superior battery life, and for the PowerPC with Altivec CPU. (The Altivec is vastly superior to the x86 line for DSP.) Because I can't live with the broken-by-design built-in ADB keyboard in all Apple laptops, Sony and IBM sold me laptops instead. If Apple fixes this problem, they will sell me a PowerBook next year; if they don't, I'll still be running OpenBSD on x86 hardware, and wishing I could use a Mac.
you expect to see wide deployment of OS X as a server. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA. now that's fucking laughable. you fucking unemployed worthless fat stupid fuck.
Dude. Relax. I'm sorry you have something against Apple. If you don't like it, don't use it. I don't know what else to tell you, except that I don't like Anime, never worked for a .com, never have been laid off, never did HTML or web shit, am not fat, and don't use IE. 0 for 7; pretty good. Though I'm not really sure what any of that has to do with Apple.
I'm just a student and sysadmin at a big ten school.
cuntcasket spotted. a flaming cum dumpster cuntcasket motherfucker.
...or words that contain "cunt"?
no, now im having fun. i won a long time ago, now im showing people this thread, laughing, talking on the phone. its fun.
LOL, showing people slashdot threads and having "fun" by not making any cohesive arguments about anything? I guess now we know who the loser is.
If you wanted to actually discuss the advantages, and disadvantages, of Apple's hardware, OS, and strategies, I'd be happy to, though...
i said the battle was won. you arent even arguing anymore, just burpleing a frothy baste of your fatehr cum out of your mouth. eructating bullshit.
you like hearing yourself speak i guess.
apple's hardware? overpriced, and inferior target for programming. x86 is better because of being ubiquitous. all the other high end stuff is more scaleable. apple is just - stupid.
Apple OS. OS 9 and below was an industry last place horrorshow. No need to talk of that. OS X picked the wrong kernel, implements 95 APIs, doesnt even get games on it to speak of, and uses a crappy, slow kernel, makes users pay for service packs
Strategy? Make STEVE JOBS rich. If you like that strategy, be my guest, loser.
Now get back to chrintine aguilera on your fucking IPOD, loser.
Check out PDO's.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
apple's hardware? overpriced, and inferior target for programming. x86 is better because of being ubiquitous. all the other high end stuff is more scaleable. apple is just - stupid.
Hasn't the Mac vs. PC argument gotten tired yet? I thought we were talking about Apple's BSD-based OS...
Yes, there's more PCs. A shitload more. So many more that it's ridiculous. So what?
Apple OS. OS 9 and below was an industry last place horrorshow. No need to talk of that.
Sure had a lot of users...*
*Note: just because Windows has more users doesn't mean make the millions of Mac OS users a small number.
OS X picked the wrong kernel
In your opinion.
implements 95 APIs
?
And since one of the APIs is BSD, which you seem to love...
doesnt even get games on it to speak of
You keep contradicting yourself. You talk of Jordan Hubbard as a sellout because he "left" FreeBSD, but now you're obviously talking about Windows, which belongs to the biggest "corporate" titan of them all! And now you're bringing up games...games are a big market, but I give a rat's ass about games.
and uses a crappy, slow kernel
Some people would say that the hardware abstraction is a worthy tradeoff...
makes users pay for service packs Calling 10.2 a "service pack" implies that it has the same content as Windows service packs. Mac OS X had been out for a year and a half with no paid updates. A year and a half. That's plenty within a reasonable timeframe to charge for an OS update. If Apple had called it 10.5 or OS XI, would it have made any difference? And for those who argue that OS X before 10.2 was pretty much a "beta" and Apple shouldn't have charged for it, well, I'd argue that Windows before 98 (in the consumer sector where over 50% of people still run 98) were "beta" too. Additionally, no one, including Apple, forced anyone to run OS X. Everyone could have used, and still can use, OS 9.x if they are so inclined. Mac OS X 10.1.x was good for many, and 10.2.x began the real push to Mac OS X. One paid upgrade every year and a half seems fine with me.
Hmmm. I may be going out on a limb here, but I'd wager that Apple couldn't give a flying fuck if you buy a laptop or not, or indeed if the next breath you draw is your last, and I'm certain they will not be changing the design of their keyboards just to satisfy your pathetic ranting ass.
So how 'bout you wipe that fleck of spittle off your lower lip, pull that big stick out of your butt, and keep your worthless rants to yourself from now on.
The crimes of eBay are a disgrace to it's pig latin heritage!
Here comes everyone's favorite industry expert on "THE ENTERPRISE." He likes that word, reminds him what he watches on TV instead of getting POONANI.
If you think anyone is going to dump FreeBSD for OS X, snicker. Snicker. Yeah,t he switch commercials go corporate.
Humbly? Well, making a break in high density computing might not be started by ripping people off with equipment that is doubly priced, half the speed and not equipped with hardware onboard raid, SCSI bays, and ECC memory. There is the 1650, and there is 1U Xeon 2.8GHz HT machines appearing as well. Leaving Xserve ever further in the dust than it was when the first one was ever used anywhere. Dust.
Now, mister server wizard, Gandalf of watching University computers run themselves, behold, it is he, the wise, that sits and watches AIX, Solaris Windows and Linux servers he didn't set up, doesn't know how to control, run. Forged when the world was young, when man and bird and beast were one, and death was but a dream, there is Shroeder-uber-Gandalf, who makes Merlin look dumb!
Of course Mot PPC sucks. And if Apple had any brains they would have made OS X available for x86. Even I, and ardent hater of Apple and PPC, would have entertained pirating a copy to run on x86, and if it ran better than it does on PPC, which is shit, even Linux on a PPC feels super speedy compared to OS X trash, then I may buy an upgrade copy or something to show my support.
I'll believe the 970 when I see it. And if Apple was smart, they'll sell motherboards. Killing clones killed any hopes for Apple to have a real share of the computing market.
Losers. APPL, losers.
This guy has been posting the same rant for over a year. Always posts as an AC.
He's just some lame ass that likes to bait Mac users - admittedly a task similar to shooting fish in a barrel.
How many were forced? Bribed? Mommie the stupid teacher came home and precious junior needed a computer and Mommie gives kids stupid shit like SpongeBobs, Barney and Apples. They all belong in a fucking toy box. Apple and PC companies are cut from the same shit stained cloth. Because Apple is a fucking arrogant, idiotic loser ass PC company, others make them look stupid. Very stupid. When apple's section of the industry is contrasted to the rest of the crap-PC makers, the comparison is even more laughable than any of the major vendors of the PC's.
Is this lame shit notation format trying to make me believe you do footnotes, bibliographies and you are some sort of academic? HAHAHAHAHA.
No, in fact. If the people who invented it stopped making it because the concept was deprecated by a major university that is also a stronghold for technical advancement in computing, CMU, then it's a good fucking sign. Oh, you're not smart enough for CS at CMU, or they are all retards and you will be next Gill Bates to show them all from UWM. Show us your power, Dr. Evil.
Your overuse of ellipsis is fucking retarded. I'm talking about that stupid mess of diarrhea in the GUI, Cocoa, Carbon, Fake versions of Java you cant get from Sun, Aqua. They have everything you don't want as a home user, namely DirectX, and nothing of value in the GUI for Servers. HAHAHAHA. Not the under the hood stuff. I also laugh that a 3.X userland was chosen for this project gone wrong at Apple. I'm sure MSFT ph33rs APPL. Everyday. And I really wish Apple was good enough to kick Microserf's ass, but alas, they are two bastard bitches in the same boat, fucking the consumer.
No, I do not. Apple does. Oh its UNIX, its UNIX its UNIX. Well, not really, its UNXI with HOME USER CRAP! Well, not all the HOME USER CRAP!, but you want this anyway! I mean, no games, who cares!!!!!. ITS UNIX, well a really old fucking shitty version of Unix, but ITS UNIX. So, if you don't like games, why are you fucking around with an OS that is bad at both being a gamer toy and bad at being a server in ANY capacity?
They would be wrong. I see kernel traps on OS X machines quite frequently. Sorry. CMU knew when to quite, aashole Jobs cant get over Next. You pay for it, AHAHAHAHAHA. Snicker.
Either 10.2 was a service pack or they sold 10.X completely and totally UN FINISHED. they made their fag user base beta test the biggest slowest un-optimized home to crap software in the world. I give them credit though, making UNIX and Windows hating assholes beta test a deprecated userland, kernel and a heavy hardware butt fucking UI.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
I sit here on a high perch, the lord on high, watching your roach like primitive gestures, and snicker and laugh.
jeeze mate is that ur sig or do you post this everytime the word macos and unix are used in a post... i've seen this time and time again on macslash and slashdot *sheesh*
---------------
100% Australian
Yeah, but the barrel is getting bigger.
Yes and he should add the line:
In Soviet Russia YOU are unusable for Apple Laptops.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
What does can of VB mean in this case? I thought you have a giant bleeding brain hematoma you fucking cuncasket was funny as well.
Then, you may eat your foot for a mid-afternoon snack.
-braxton
i'm looking at an imac keyboard and the ctrl key sure looks like it is to the left of the A, dorks.
In soviet russia, can a beowulf cluster of these things imagine YOU?
Free Java games for your phone: Tontie, Sokoban
...does in his spare time. He trolls /.
Victorian Bitter i.e. beer....and no were not all practicing alcoholics....some of us are experts :-)
Are you fucking kidding? you must know how to read market share data. Apple hasnt changed its market share much at all, and OS X adoption rates are LOW for people with older Apple hardware [more than 1.5 years, you go from slow to slow as shit]. about the only reason Apple's market share goes up is that the computers cant be upgraded so 10 mac people end up having 30 computers.
fucking retard
Suck dick cockfucker. You fucking Mac loser fuck
You want to know what Stev Jobs does in his spare time, wishes he was as good as FUCKING REAMING THE ASSHOLE out of the consumer as Gill Batez
Fucking pussy cunt.
here's a sharpie. problem solved. ass.
I want to fill my rectum with VB beer and hold it and get a beer shit liquid ready and then lean and spray shit diarhea all over Steve Jobs and Dave Schroeder's face.
HAHAHAHAHAH. cuncasket mother fuckers Jobs and Schroeder are.
fuck off Steve Slobs fucking snark buttloving apple faggot.