Slashdot Mirror
Linux for Home Electronics
ives writes "Matsushita (Panasonic) and Sony are going to develop a Linux platform for digital home electronic devices. The nice thing is that they want to release the jointly developed source code for this project under the GPL. The press release mentions open source, the GPL and even Richard Stallman :^)."
Now i can finally run linux on my electrical toothbrush... w00t
Check my site: http://pixel.pagina.nl
While the Sony's have lived in the modern world for awhile, and have gotten it, as well as being on both sides of it, Matsuhita electric is perhaps the most traditional and conservitive of Japanese companies. I have known these people (Matsushita) for much of my life, from some of their board members down. This is an organization so steeped in it's own traditions and dogma (yes, they really do have a "250 year" business plan, and never make fun of the founders light bulb socket :), with engineering departments so conservitivily organized, that for them to support open development of GPL software is really much like the Pope encouraging contraction!
According to this yahoo article Sony/Panasonic already have a PVR device on the market in Japan that is using Linux called Cocoon.
It makes sense, cost, robustness, development time,....
And this way they don't support MS, who is their competitor.
Looks like some companies have finally accepeted that GPL is not hostile to property and profit.
OK,
Yesterday, I needed to do a side job for a friend and instead of running CAT5, I used some of the new powerline ethernet stuff. What has me impressed is that this stuff was *dead reliable* and quite compact for its first iteration. What happens when it shrinks and we see this stuff built into TVs and alarm clocks?
Aside from your toaster manufacturer snooping your toasting habbits, your alarm clock will be able to pull MP3s from the home server. Your TV will pull the funniest commercials (ala the late adcritic.com) from the Tivo ranking database. Create a standard for it all, and you've got some remarkable integration.
With this, it hopefully will not be called "DirectHOME" or something like that...
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
apparently /. is now serving their content of one off these....
Hmmm, nice moniker: HAL
Now we know whats going to happen when the kernel is in charge....
Hell really is freezing over. Please send us some hot coffee down here asap.
I'm already cringing at what I *know* is going to happen. They're going to release some stuff - exactly what they're obligated to - under the GPL. But other stuff - say DRM - will certainly NOT be under the GPL. Then there's going to be such a hoopla and whining in forums such as this one even though these companies have done exactly what they're obligated to. "They should give back to the community", etc, ad nauseum, and some people will be wondering why, if the open/free software implies some sort of larger obligation to a community, why these weren't written into the licenses.
It would be great if Panasonic developed drivers for its PBX boxes. Bayonne needs some support. They also developed a "small" call center solution that panasonic can't sell anymore. So why don't they release it as GPl and step back into the PBX market?
Well, to be fair it specifically says:
"TELL THAT BEARDED LUNATIC TO STOP CALLING US!"
It could mean almost anyone (whos a bearded lunatic).
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
As opposed to the existing email field, which cannot be spidered at all you mean?
If people don't want their MSN displayed because they don't want their email spammed, then that's fair enough. They don't need to enter anything. Why is Taco protecting us? We never asked him to.
For some reason the link I posted doesn't work but you can search for cocoon under Older stuff and you'll find it
Sorry again
Nick
PS Bad form to reply to my own post I know
if you compete against Microsoft. They hope that the total cost for the Linux platform will be less than licensing cost for a technical equal Windows platform. So they can save lots of money and don't found the Xbox. And Microsoft can't use any of the public code in their proprietary software, because it's GPL.
But I do not believe, that they will release everything as GPL. New technologies like Super Audio CD (SACD) will, according to Philips and Sony, never ever appear in a PC. But releasing the driver for the drive and the filesystem could misled someone to play with the hardware and build some SACD-drives into a PC. So he could rip again the music.
If you want to sell the hardware, give the software away for free.
You hear that, Intel?
Software Wars
clause 5: The license must not discriminate against any person or group of persons.
Well, this is a classic case of "Anything can be used to build an argument when taken out of context".
This clause refers to the license the software is released under, and not the content or function of the software. Just as Microsoft's Licenses do not define the content and function of their software, the OSS License options, including the GPL, only define licensing terms, and not requirements for software content or functionality.
Disclaimer: I meant what I thought, not what I wrote! What? You can't read my Mind? Oh dear!
Why do we care what OS runs inside of an embedded device? As long as it is reliable, I don't care if it runs QNX, VxWorks, OSE, RT Linux or any other (proven, real time) operating system.
// Alan Porter
Your thoughts people :)
I would likely be prepared to shell out some cash for a Sony-produced linux based component that would really work well in my living room. Being able to run linux on the PS2 is not quite enough for my needs. It would have to really integrate well with other AV components.
Hey, look at that flying pig!
As part of a recent acquisition my company made, I had to describe the IP included in the deal. We spent quite a bit of time defining what software meant. In this case, it included everything from java, c, and c++ source (with documentation) to libraries the company previously purchased for specific pieces of hardware. I looked around for a good definition, but discovered that most were pretty bad.
Your monitor is staring at you.
from the I-read-this-already-on-Yahoo dept. ?
Is Slashdot relevant anymore?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
It seems to me that most commercial PVR's are running on a Linux platform, not to mention the several PVR projects for Linux such as MythTV and Freevo.
I use both of these and they both work great (with much tweaking on my part) and I don't have to deal with any of the PVR bs like commercials or having to subscribe.. which makes all the work it took in getting a solution working up more than worth it. If more people would support one of these projects it could easily grow into an easy to use package that anybody can setup in a realatively short time and we can circumvent DRM. "You wanna stick DRM on all the PVR's? Fine, my PC is DRM-less.. do something about it."
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
Sony and MS don't get along well. There's always been some tension between those two and Sony doesn't mind pouring a little alcohol on the open wound known as the embedded/console market.
That which does not kill me only makes me stronger (but hurts ALOT!)
If you think education is expensive, you should try ignorance -- Derek Bok, president of Harvard
Am I the only one that thought of that pun when I saw this story?
>It is a shame Be never open sourced BeOS before they went out of business and left that sort of thing up to the investors. Sony and Matsushita would be much better off with BeOS than Linux for any media related activities.
:-)
Yeah yeah, to borrow a page from the Amiga community.
Sorry, open sourcing BeOS would do NOTHING at this point.
All of the tough questions that apply to Linux-based appliances, also apply to BeOS. You know, those things you have to justify to PHB's and also investors like profit, roadmap, not dilluting your copyrights and patents, etc. Who is going to maintain and extend BeOS to other hardware, as Linux has done?
Open sourcing an OS or environment is no magic pixie dust. I don't think there's enough interest in Be to extend it to odd CPU's, odd audio and video drivers. Be tried positioning itself as a "multimedia" OS, but good luck finding drivers to ALLOW that multimedia.
Linux is MUCH better supported (OSS or not) than BeOS, and remember Linux is just an infant in this arena.
I remember a few years ago, Digital (was it Caldera?) open sourced their version of Digital GEM, the very-thin graphical desktop which was briefly popular on the PC, before Windows. It's open sourced, fits on a floppy, but even with active development it's not up to par with the Atari ST fork of GEM, discontinued about 10 years ago. (The developers of the now OSS version of GEM were hoping to make it a lightweight GUI for cell phones and PDA's).
It's now too late for any new platforms unless there are TRULY new ideas. The way I see it, you have Open Source and you have non-open source Microsoft. Linux, BSD, etc doesn't matter it's the toolchain that is the platform - not the kernel.
The oddball here is Apple Mac OS X. While they are proprietary, the toolchain is (or can be) largely the same as open source. For the position Apple was/is in, they made the wise choice.
Companies who want a "multimedia OS" but DON'T want Linux or Microsoft, I could see an oppurtunity here for Apple (if they don't go after the appliance market all themselves, as they seem to be consiering).
I am amused at how a lot of companies don't realize what they are actually selling. This is a refreshing change.
Paul
Sony and Matsushita has both a common ennemy -> Microsoft Microsoft is attacking Sony on their Playstation business, where as Matsushita has very good relationship with Nintendo (they make the mini-dvd player of the Gamecube, and the Gamecube Q)
So, why should we? My job is to design, implement, and administer networks for customers. Some of these are quite large networks and some are small but they all have one thing in common: in order to take care of them I have to understand the way all the components work. Ahhh.... I just heard a penny drop.
I spec Cisco routers and switches because I understand how they work and know that they will do the job. The customer doesn't have to pay me to spend time figuring out how to fix a problem; once I know what the problem is the chances are I can put a fix in quickly. Often without leaving my office! This saves the client money and, not coincidentally, makes me look good.
If Sony puts Linux into a device then I already have a better chance at understanding how to make that device work than if some engineer had designed his (or her) own idea for a cool command set.
And because Sony now doesn't have to put all that extra money into designing the OS, that means that their products will cost less. I can put their products into a network and save money on both ends: the procurement end and the administration end. This makes Cisco scramble to lower prices to keep market share. So even if we don't use Linux devices, the costs for networks goes down just because these devices are out there.
In short, I care what the underlying OS is on these devices because I don't have to learn a zillion different commands for the same things and I can, therefore, do my job quicker and more efficiently. You should care because when you get a job at a company you can hire me to do your network and look good when we save you money.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
So what do we reckon the chances are of them embedding open source software in secure hardware devices such as SACD players, digital TVs, palladium PCs and set top boxes? I'd say with, for example, Sonys hardware and software interests the chances are less than nil.
seany
In this case, an open source license must not be written to discriminate against groups of people. Slashdot is wilfully discriminating against people. Sure, technically they are doing nothing wrong, because slashdot obviously isn't an open source license. however, they are going against the spirit of freedom evidenced in clause 5. Perhaps I should make it clearer that clause 5 was only an example, and was not being used as a legal directive.
Thank you for your comments, their cogency was refreshing.
Have you spoken to CmdrTaco about this? He can be quite good at responding to polite emails...
It's certainly likely to get your further than another offtopic Slashdot rant will.
cheers,
Tim
I got so carried away with my own rhetoric that I neglected to tie it in to home electronics so here goes:
:)
Thirty years ago anyone who understood electronics theory and vacuum tubes could fix any home electronic device. Simply understanding how electronic circuits worked meant that a tech could move from one device to another. And manufacturers didn't have to design a new theory for each device, they just wired up the vacuum tubes in new ways which were still understandable. All a tech had to do was look at the schematic diagram, apply a few standard tools (oscilloscope, VTVM, signal injector, etc.) and he (or she) could make it work.
So if Sony uses Linux in its latest widget and you understand Linux, you'll understand how your widget works and how to get the most out of your widget. Plus, since Sony didn't have to design a brand new widget-operating-system, you will either be able to buy it cheaper than the Samsung widget or it will do more... or both. And if your widget breaks you won't have to buy a new one, you can just flash the bios and make it just like new.
So putting widely known operating systems into devices saves money for both the manufacturer and the consumer. This makes us all happier and a few of us wealthier. If you learn Linux, and Linux is the OS they put in all these devices, you have a better chance of joining that few.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
If I'd thought he'd listen (i.e. he hadn't just ignored the bug report) then no, I wouldn't have written the rant.
PS. EnglishTim is a pretty groovy nick. Was it a real-life nickname owing to growing up as a Brit in America or something?
Sony sucks. And not just because they're members of ??AA (their film subsidiary is an MPAA member, is it not?).
Sony makes overpriced, underperforming crap gear in every consumer electronics category. They are only able to sell their junk thanks to their marketing department. The last good, innovative product they had was the original Walkman.
They can support Linux all they want - I'm happy for Linux if it helps it get more mainstream acceptance (although, embedding it in a consumer product is NOT going to help Linux on the desktop, don't kid yourself). However, I will not buy anything that comes from Sony. I've been burned by their poor quality and lack of support one time too many.
Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
RMS may be mentioned in the press release,
but he is still going to be upset (and
quite rightly so):
"Linux is well known as an operating system"
Linux is a kernel.
How hard is it to get important pieces of texts
like press releases without blatant errors?
Bram
http://www.stolk.org/tlctc
Linux tapped to be audiovisual aid
I'll be able to use my toaster as a router, my fridge as a switch, and the bathroom sink as a WAP.
And there'll still be lag because of the bandwidth hog ceiling fan. Yes, I know you're still rotating!
Keep your packets off my GNU/Girlfriend!
I think not. They published an
AIBO sdk in June. Read an interesting faq about it here.
-- pyz
Doesn't it seem a little ironic for a card-carrying RIAA member to be embracing Open Source/GPL for their products? I wonder if they'll try to make some kind of modification or licensing deal to screw Panasonic and the rest of the world from using this embedded system.
Well, he's written so little that in the report that it's not clear what he means.
Perhaps, for instance, he simply meant that it was a feature request rather than a bug.
My point is that you can't really tell what his position is on it from such a small amount of information. It might just be a spur of the moment thing for him - "Ahh - M$ users - I can't be bothered - I have enough on my plate", which is certainly something that might be changed by a well reasoned email.
As for the nick - no I've never lived in the States - I just made it up when I first chose my hotmail address.
RTFA
Unusual for Sony to consider going open. Usually they make very propritary technology, such as Minidisc, Memory stick, Magicgate and SACD. This looks a lot like they dont care what they put in their boxes, as long as its cheap. Windows embedded isn't cheap, and it would probably mean adding more RAM too. Just because the systems run linux doesn't mean people will be able to mess with them easily. Its unlikely the appliances will have a convenient RS232 port to plug a terminal into, or a keyboard. People may be able to make some adjustments to the OS, but thats about it. As someone said earlier, even through some code will be released the all-important DRM technology will not. It wont be covered under the GPL as its not part of linux. Without the DRM code and keys the source code wouldn't be much good. You could rewrite sections of the code, recompile, and put it on the drive (or flash a chip for smaller appliances) but what then? The other appliances wouldn't trust it, if it has a hard drive it will be encrypted so the recompiled kernel wouldn't read it. Like most DRM systems it would be an all-or-nothing system. If you really wanted you might be able to recompile a DRM-free kernel and somehow get it to execute, but unless all the other appliances were also rewritten you wouldn't be able to view anything other then your move movies (unless someone breaks the DRM of course) Microsofts response should be quite intresting through. They only have two embedded OS platforms, windows CE and windows XP embedded. Both are a bit on the large side. MS is not going to remove all those fancy skins and 16-bit icons, so they might start marketing more agressivly. Assumeing the whole thing doesn't fade into obscurity, with a complete OS but noone makeing appliances using it, this is certinly good. But dont expect the Microsoft empire to collapse just yet. Like MS, Sony guards its propritary technology carefully. They arn't going to just give away source for playing SACDS or decryption codes for OpenMG.
Are there only two choices? Good or evil?
Perhaps we techno-geeks need to stop thinking about everything in the real world in binary terms.
The world is an analog place, not a digital one.
nuclear iraq bioweapon encryption cocaine korea terrorist
What we really need is much better tools and hardware. One really geat beginning to that need just was released - Qplus Target Builder. This is the first decent open source embedded toolkit. Check it out - soon to be moving to sourceforge.
But then you also need some good hardware and its nearly impossible for the hobbyist to figure out what is decent and what is drek in all the offerings out there. Then you look at the prices and they are out of control. Has anyone found a good source of fanless embedded hardware that does not cost over $500 for a $100 piece of hw? Send me mail if you have.
That's really cool that they are going to release their modifications. There generosity knows no bounds. I mean wow, it's not like the license for the software they are modifying requires them to release those modificaitons... er...
:)
Nevermind...
Don't get me wrong though, this is great news regardless
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
If the designer decides to use Linux, it implies something about their values, which further implies that you will have fewer interoperability problems. The implications can be wrong, of course: it's just a very general trend.
You aren't cringing enough. They don't need to keep DRM code closed source. They will simply design the system so it won't run unsigned code. If you make one tiny improvement to the code and recompile, it won't work. You will have no choice but to use Sony/Panasonic code.
If you find a security hole, you will have to wait for the vendor to fix it. If you want to create software for the system, you will have to get the vendor's permission. In essense, it defeats the whole point of Open Source (putting you control, letting you improve the system, letting you fix the bugs, etc.).
Of course I'm just speculating. It's possible they'll release the system without DRM, but coming from Sony, I seriously doubt it.
Well, I guess if you're a zombie and keep using your right arm you'll wind up as a leftist soon enough. :-}
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
This saying applies even if your "friend" is otherwise your enemy. In fact, that's largely the point of the saying. "Friend" and "enemy" are, for the most part, simply relative terms, not absolutes.
Think FDR vs Stalin during WWII.
Matsushita and Sony may be bitter "hometown rivals," but there is a foreign enemy, far across the Pacific Ocean, in the new land of capitalist barbarians.
First secure the homefront. THEN cut your neighbor to ribbons. It's traditional.
KFG
If devices really start to become more customizable by the end user, I could see a migration of small TV repair shop type places staring a sideline of device customization - add pictures of the kids/dogs/cats to menus, customize features like macros to do just what the user wants.
A lot of people never take the time to use even slightly advanced features on devices, so a lot of people might be willing to spend a few extra dollars on macros that do slick stuff for them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Hmmm, is this bad news for Symbian then? Surely in the long run Linux will start running on our mobile phones and everything else...
Here's hoping for linux toaster for chrimbo.
So putting widely known operating systems into devices saves money for both the manufacturer and the consumer.
Assuming, of course, said operating system can perform the job effectively and efficiently. Thanks to our superb kernel hackers, linux is quite scalable. It works good both on the embedded scale and the supercomputer scale. But one can imagine situations where linux would not be the best solution. In fact, until recently linux wasn't very scalable at all and it would have been a terrible idea to try and use it in embedded devices, even if it IS familiar to most geeks.
Remember Windows CE? I actually think it is still around, but when it first came out it was vastly inferior to PalmOS. Windows was designed to work on a desktop, not in an embedded device. It didn't matter that it was an interface that was already familiar to a lot of people. It wasn't a good tool for the job.
You people actually want Sony developing Linux? WTF is going on here. Sony is basically our worst enemy. They practically are the RIAA. They just want to get their hands dirty with kerenl development so they can magically appear with DRM patches for the kernel when USA outlaws non-DRM enabled Operating systems and hardware.
Unfortunately, if there is an alternative to a propriatary technology hardware manufacturers will go for it. This is why most PC's don't come with Apple's Firewire (the extra $1). With the razor thin profit margins in catagories of electronics manufacturers simply cannot afford to add propriatary technology in their products. Regardless of how much better anyone thinks it is.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
I put the idea out there so I'd be able to buy something like it in a year or so. Or, perhaps I'll start the same business and one of us can buy out the other in a year!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
My guess would be RMS=Root Mean Square, in reference to the method used for computing the average power of a signal. Power handling/output is a specification of speakers and amplifiers, and Panasonic and Sony deal with audio equipment.
A solution to the problem with music today
Here is info on Sony's Linux PVR Cocoon:
/. article about this product:
h tm l?tid%129
http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/cocoon/
It's uses MontaVista's Linux which is likely what this project is based after.
So Sony's Cocoon should be a good example what this alliance may produce.
Also you can check out the previous
http://slashdot.org/articles/02/09/04/1328209.s
I shall email the one known as Taco. Expect to be kept informed as to the results.
While I really appreciate you pointing this out, there's a much simpler, and much more important way in which Slashdot is anti-OSS. From the most recent 10Q filed by LNUX (Va Software)
IF WE FAIL TO ADEQUATELY PROTECT OUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS, COMPETITORS
MAY USE OUR TECHNOLOGY AND TRADEMARKS, WHICH COULD WEAKEN OUR COMPETITIVE
POSITION, REDUCE OUR REVENUES, AND INCREASE OUR COSTS. We rely on a combination of copyright, trademark, patent and trade-secret laws, employee and third-party nondisclosure agreements, and other arrangements to protect our proprietary rights.
I think it's great to see more Free Software being released. I welcome more Free Software programmers and their Free Software projects. But I think the importance of freedom is being ignored to chase what's popular and convenient here and now. I also see some potential for mistaking the advances of a freedom-minded movement for the advances of a freedom-dismissing movement.
Linux is not an operating system, it is and has been a kernal. The Linux kernal is an important portion of a complete GNU/Linux operating system but it is just a portion (no matter how many people say otherwise) and it's not fair to ignore GNU. There are compelling reasons to take the time to mention GNU when you are talking about a complete operating system.
The great stuff we all appreciate in GNU came from a movement that pays a lot of attention to software freedom. The Open Source movement (which curtly dismisses the importance of software freedom) came over a decade later, well after the GNU GPL had been published and in wide use; well after the pragmatic idealism of the Free Software community had published a lot of Free Software. So please don't misattribute the gains of freedom (both practical and ethical) to the wrong movement.
Digital Citizen
We already have GNU/Stallman.
Both companies are driven by some very good case designers plus some toaster-minded engineers.
Did you try a top-of-the-line VCR from Matushita/Panasonic?
It has a lot of complicated/"advanced" features (that work poorly) but it lacks the most ellementary functions (e.g. simple fast forward to where YOU want not where it decides it is the end/start of the track). Sort like emacs in Redhat 7.3.
Did you ever try to use a Vayo notebook? I'm telling you, it is a nightmare. It looks great but it is practically unusable even with Windows. Unstable, most of the functions are software implemented and they work poorly, the BIOS is the greatest failure I've ever seen. Compared to an IBM it is like a bycicle compared to a Rols Royce.
So I doubt such companies (and others including JVC) will actually be able to understand anything about Linux. Even the toothbrush joke is a long shot. They are perfectly match for Microsoft. As a Microsoft marketer told me once about Windows 9x, all these crappy products are "consumer grade" and the consumer doesn't know how they should behave, so it is happy with what they get. Go buy Windows NT and see there professional product (ha, ha, ha).
I'm sorry I even wasted my time on Slashdot. They (by user interpretation) violate Section #5, and to me, that's horrible.
-Kipozo "Take it one step at a time" Http://www.wipples.com
Actually, in the embedded computing space, there may well be no GNU code on the box. Both of my most recent PDAs have used Busybox utilities in place of the huge (and therefore featureful, but not ideal for a machine with small amounts of permanent storage) GNU utilities.
/usr/local/gnu is at the front of my PATH. And I've never played with GNU/Hurd, but I bet it doesn't feel much like GNU/Hurd, unless GNU/Hurd has deliberately adopted standards from the Linux community. All of that is part of why I call Linux distros Linux distros. It feels more accurate and more descriptive to me.
A previous version of the Linux distro for the iPAQ used the full GNU utilities, but they switched to Busybox a while back for space reasons.
And you know what? A Linux distribution based on Busybox that follows the Linux filesystem standards feels a lot like any other Linux distribution (GNU-based or not). And it doesn't feel very much like a Solaris distribution when
People routinely refer to Slackware Linux as Slackware, and to Debian [GNU/]Linux as Debian. If Richard and the FSF want to increase the public mindshare of the term GNU, one good way to do it would be either to encourage Debian to rename their project "GNU Linux" ("GNU" being the name of the distribution), or to start their own Linux-based distribution which they refer to from the start as "GNU Linux". And people would routinely refer to it as GNU, and maybe make the connection that the same people who put it together produced the GNU utilities that show up in other Linux-based distros. That would be a lot more effective than arguing with people about terminology. After all, it's been something like thirty years that people have been encouraging gender-neutral language, a change in terminology that benefits half the population of the planet rather than a small fraction of geeks, and changes in that area are still far from complete. If the FSF wants widespread mindshare for the phrase "GNU", and widespread understanding of what it represents, and if they want it while POSIX-like operating systems and semiconductor-based computing are still relevant, they need marketing methods that work faster than that.
The Commandments of the EE:
(9) Trifle thee not with radioactive tubes and substances lest thou
commence to glow in the dark like a lightning bug, and thy wife be
frustrated and have not further use for thee except for thy wages.
(10) Commit thou to memory all the words of the prophets which are
written down in thy Bible which is the National Electrical Code,
and giveth out with the straight dope and consoleth thee when
thou hast suffered a ream job by the chief electrician.
(11) When thou muckest about with a device in an unthinking and/or
unknowing manner, thou shalt keep one hand in thy pocket. Better
that thou shouldest keep both hands in thy pockets than
experimentally determine the electrical potential of an
innocent-seeming device.
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...