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Microsoft Ordered to Carry Java
An anonymous reader was the 17,232th person to submit that "Microsoft has been ordered to include Sun's Java runtime in Windows. Coverage from AP (via Yahoo), Reuters (via news.com), and, let's say, the BBC."
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Simple: By not including Java, Microsoft abuses its monopoly power to push ActiveX.
I really don't get this. Why is MSFT forced to include a piece of software written by their competitor into their Operating System ? I know that having a monopoly places restrictions on what you can and can't do, but I was not aware they can go THAT far.
Now, don't get me wrong, I hate MS as much as the next guy in the open source community, but doesn't this open up a slippery slope? Where does it stop?
--sdem
I'll tell you what unnecessary government intrusion is. Unnecessary government intrusion is the DMCA legislating away our right to think critically and speak freely. Unnecessary government intrusion is the "War on Terror", a war on a verb, mind you, which can only be won by injecting drugs into every American which prevents fear regardless of stimulus. Unncessary government intrusion is the Office of Total Information Awareness, a Poindexter-led database of our SSN cross indexed to our freaking chest X-rays to our cell phone locations.
No, this is not "unncessary government intrusion". This is just a court trying to restore our basic unalienable right to a software language that isn't owned by a giant corporation like Microsoft.
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
Nice. Java is a good concept. Slow, mind you, but good, since what runs on Windows (written in Java) will run on Linux will run on Mac OS X. It makes the OS world a better place.
Because: .NET initiative.
a) 99% of people will never download it
b) Fair punishment for Microsoft purposesly distributing a broken version of Java based on 1.1 (From 1997!) for 5 years, because it wanted to cripple the competition for it's
Listen, if my Television was manufactured by NBC, they should not have the power to not carry CBS, ABC, PBS, etc. They should be forced to carry all stations, within reason, that fit the standards.
If Microsoft bundles its own add-ons into its OS, that's monopolistic and bad; but if Microsoft bundles someone else's add-ons into its OS, that's competitive and good?
So now instead of one gigantic corporation controlling what's on your computer, there will be two. Ah, so much better.
MS is being forced to carry and install software they don't want and won't use. They've been doing that to us for years, now let's see how much they like it!
Here's how I understand it:
Sun is suing MS in a civil case, saying that Microsoft used their monopoly(1) on desktop operating systems to illegally compete with Sun's Java, in the form of a browser plugin. MS used their OS to hinder Sun by including an out-of-date and broken JVM version for many years, despite better software available (for free) from Sun.
The judge agreed that this was likely an illegal use of their monopoly(2). MS already attempted to say that browsers (and their plugins, which Java is in this case) are part of the operating system, but that was already rejected in the DOJ case. Because of this precedent, the case looks very strong for Sun, so...
As a preliminary injunction, the judge ruled that Microsoft has to include the latest version of the JVM from Sun, so that as the case is argued in court (no doubt over a period of years), further damage is avoided.
I don't read it that Microsoft can 'opt out' of carrying any sort of JVM, especially since that's already their tactic with WinXP.
-Zipwow
1: Monopoly, not illegal in itself. MS has argued that no monopoly exists. The DoJ case's findings of fact specifically described MS' hold on Desktop OS's as a monopoly.
2: Using a monopoly in one area to hinder competition in another is illegal, and is what Sun is complaining about. Using your desktop power to break into the web-plugin market (and hence the related server market) is what's illegal.
I don't know which is more depressing, that 2/3 didn't care enough to vote, or that 1/2 of those that did are crazy.
Hey Dummy, that agreement was superceeded by an agreement that Microsoft could not include the latest and greatest versions of Java as part of a settlement, and that Microsoft was only allowed to distribute their older java runtime for a few more years. It never said they were required to carry anything, and Microsoft is currently obiding by that settlement.
www.atacomm.com - The Leader in VoIP Product Distributi
...why Microsoft is being required to carry a competitor's product.
.NET).
Microsoft is now competing with Java (with
Microsoft has a monopoly in a different market.
Using a monopoly position in one market to influence another is illegal.
Microsoft has been distributing an incompatible version of Java.
Monopolies are required by law to play by different rules.
"The cost of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson
It is hardly redundant. Look at the time, it was clearly the first mention of it. The first time it is posted, its funny. Every time after that, it is redundant.
Of course, the idea of joking about the editor's grammar capabilities might be redundant. Oh well, stil a waste of mod points.
(No, I'm not the original poster.)
a long time ago, a company named reynolds was the only producer/developer of aluminum. not only that, but they were going around the world buying up all thye bauxite mines they could find. the feds stepped in and the final decision forced them to set up a whole, new company, (ALuminum COmpany of America, or ALCOA), give them plant and equipment, AND had to forfeit to them some bauxite mines. one of the motivations for this was that aluminum was considered a necessary material, not just for war, but for manufacturing.
while i don't like government intrusion, there is a very important issue to consider. with its already established monopoly, and many abuses thereof, microsoft has gone way beyond the scope of normal business activity. this is not only a case of insuring competition, but prevents control of the market in a vital sector. economists from all sides, in particular free market champion milton friedman, argue that the role of government in the economy is to prevent monopolies and protect the market system. this doesn't pick winners and losers, just makes sure that the odds are even.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
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I don't think this is going to last long for a variety of reasons. IANAL but, heck this is slashy
First a preliminary injunction is subject to a number of tests, Sun has to have a better than even chance of winning the case, refusing the injunction would have to cause more harm than granting it might and so on.
I don't think the claim that sun are harmed holds water. It was their previous action that caused Microsoft to stop shipping the Java VM.
Microsoft have a very strong case that Sun suffers no harm if the status quo continues and that they would suffer substantial harm. Java is active code and active code has historically been subject to lots of security risks - including Java.
Secondly, I don't think that the judge's mention of Tonya Harding helps. The statements create an impression of bias. Equally the statements appear to go way beyond the issues that should be considered where a preliminary injunction are concerned and tend to indicate that the judge has formed a judgement before the hearing...
I don't have much sympathy for Sun here. It may be the US way for failing companies to go to the government or courts to try to win there what they failled to win in the market but it didn;t do Netscape any good. Scott is driving sun into the ground with his Microsoft obsession, the competition that will erase Sun completely comes from Linux and Apple. I am not an Apple fan but they are the worlds largest UNIX vendor by far, they have a solid O/S and if they can only get a powerful processor they can clean up the market for closed source Unix.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
The end user doesn't have to be bothered with installing the "monopolyware" solution themselves. Why should they be forced to execute an extra step themselves. Why even expect that they well be able to when everyone appears to claim that PC's must be built to cater to absolute morons.
Microsoft's middleware enjoys an ILLEGAL advantage. They are a conviceted Monopolist, this gives their competitors a right to the "fruits poisonous tree". In any area that Microsoft abuses it's OEM channel, Microsoft's competitors are entitled to the same "advantage".
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Did you read anything other than scan the headlines?
There is a CONTRACT between MS and Sun relating to Java. They are under contractual obligation to include Jave, The judge ruled in favor of Sun regarding interpretation of this contract. To the extend there is a contract between MS and any other competitor they can do likewise. IE file suit and hope for a favorable ruling.
Help fight continental drift.
I've seen a lot of comments here about how this is government intrusion and has no place in a free market.
That, dear friends, is complete bullshit.
People seem to equate "free market" with "freedom for companies to do whatever the hell they want." But it doesn't work that way. A free market is a market in which there are multiple companies all competing on the same level with the same rules. And it provides consumers with multiple choices so that they have the power to decide what's the best product to use.
The key point here is that if the product is a foundation for other products, such as telephone lines, cable service, computer hardware or computer software, you need to set some rules so that everyone has the chance to compete on the same level.
Think of it like a football game, where one team provides the playing field, the locker rooms and all the other assorted stuff that goes along with a normal game. The visiting team plays at a disadvantage because most of the fans are rooting for the home team, but they still play with the same rules, independent referees, the same size goal posts and end-zone. The home team doesn't get the ability to have things however they want it just because it's their field. There are rules, and they must be adhered to.
Remember, a free market economy's prime benefactor is the consumer, not the company. When companies become so large that they can influence the consumer's choices no matter what, you lose the benefits of free markets. That is why anti-trust laws were created and one of the reasons you need governments in the first place.
So, don't think that a free market economy needs no supervision. It needs lots of it, for the benefit of the consumer. In the end, everyone wins, not just one producer of products.
(BTW, on a completely different note, this is partly the same argument that can be made for affirmative action and programs like it, in order to create a level playing field so that everyone progresses and moves forward, rather than just a select group).
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
Right on! Not only should Microsoft be forced to include Java, they should also include Python, Haskell and Tcl/Tk. Make them ship with Navigator AND Mozilla. But icons for both MSOffice and OpenOffice on the desktop. Heck, throw in a loopback distro of Linux while you're at it.
After all, if Sun cannot compete because Windows doesn't ship with Java, then neither can anyone else who doesn't have their software shipped with Windows.
Hee, hee. Since Microsoft has been declared an illegal monopoly, they're fair game. Make them do whatever we want. Make them give away MSOffice for free! Make them give all of us a rebate whether or not we've even used their stuff! Make them replace their desktop with GNOME! They're evil so anything the government does to them is justified...
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Where's the value? Now I can run applets? This doesn't hurt MSFT - and has marginal benefit for Sun. MSFT can actually put added pressure on Sun now, to ensure that the Windows version of the JVM works perfectly with whatever features they put into Windows. Added cost for Sun. Additionally, how many Java-based applications do you actually install and run? The majority of the desktop application market is still MFC/Win32/COM/.NET. This is only a moral victory for Sun.
.NET. Not to mention the additional 6-12 months that MSFT will appeal and maneuver.
.NET (managers aren't programmers, they don't read Slashdot, and they don't give a damn about the politics of McNeely or RMS)
Not to mention that MSFT could probably engineer Windows/IE to run the JVM more slowly, and give the user a "Disable Java" option. Of course, it'd end up back in court - but how long? 2-3 years? Enough time to gain more ubiquity for
Best scenario for MS: they advertise the fact that they have Sun's Java, make it run slow, and put an imprint in the mind of managers everywhere that Java is slow. No matter what the financial costs would be (Bill and Steve: "Fine us for $300 million! Oh please, don't throw us in the briar patch! Oh no!") What matters is the decision that those very same managers make, when they're deciding between Java and
The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
Java is active code and active code has historically been subject to lots of security risks - including Java.
I agree there. Code constantly under development is usually pretty prone to security risks. That's why I'm so mother fucking happy that Windows never has to release a single fucking security update. What fucking planet are you on ass clown? IE's got shit coming out of the wood works here and it's five fucking years into production. The holes found in Java today are piddly compared to the gaping bullshit I see in IE on a weekly basis.
Scott is driving sun into the ground with his Microsoft obsession, the competition that will erase Sun completely comes from Linux and Apple. I am not an Apple fan but they are the worlds largest UNIX vendor by far, they have a solid O/S and if they can only get a powerful processor they can clean up the market for closed source Unix.
How big was the fucking crack rock you smoked this morning? Linux is -NOT- a threat to the Sun industry. Linux runs on cheap assed x86 based hardware (and more.. but x86 is where it's cost effective)... for mid-grade server environments and clustered computing. Go to Sun's online store sometime. They've got shit in "entry level" listed at over 30k per box. That is NOT Linux's market. I love Linux -- it's great.... but it ain't cut out for the big iron yet. Any ass clown that tries to throw Linux on an E10k deserves to get taken out behind the office and flogged.
Who the hell is he going to go after besides Microsoft anyway? I mean shit -- with all the marketshare out there on the desktop that MS doesn't have he could yank all the business form the Linux crowds and half the business from Apple and have a giant fucking 4% of all desktops around the world! Yippee fucking do! There's a business plan for ya. Fuck going after the majority -- the real money's to be made with the 4% of hobbiest out there that actually care about their OS.
And for Apple and OSX -- Why the fuck do you think Sun's so pissed off? They have absolutely -NO- chance of getting in on the desktop marketshare with Microsoft in charge of shit. Apple's got their niche market that dwindles down as time goes on. I work with people that deal with technology every friggen day and have no idea how to work a Mac or why they're so nice. That's a friggen monopoly -- plain and simple.
Furthermore -- Where the hell do you think OS/X came from? They yanked the OS right from FreeBSD and put it on the PPC architecture. There's no way in Heaven or Hell that Apple could devote the kind of money it would have taken to get OS/X off the ground w/out the work of the FreeBSD group and the whole open source community. Why? Because there's a fucking giant gorilla running around crushing all commercial competion. How sad is that? Your stellar OS's foundation is based of the free work of hackers around the world because that's the -only- way you can compete with Microsoft.
Yes, Microsoft dominated the market. Yes they got there through shrewd business tactits. But -- they gained a monopoly and ABUSED that. Plain and simple. As a technolgoy worker I am forced, like it or not, to get down on my knees and suck the dick labled "Microsoft" now and then simply because they're a monopoly. I'm sick of sucking their cock and taking it in the ass -- fuck them. I'm a libertarian by nature but this has go to go. They're not doing any good for the tech industry nor the consumer. I'm all for the government coming in here and telling them what to do with their desktop. It's the only thing in the world that actualy has the force -TO- do it. The consumer can't -- that's plain and simple and has been proven in a court of law.
I get irate about this stuff; obviously. It amazes me that somebody that can actually use a keyboard would swallow anything less than a "thrash MS to death" mentality.
Read the article, or the verdict. Microsoft and Sun had a pre-existing contract and Microsoft broke it. Since Redhat has not ever entered any contractual relationship with Microsoft, nobody will be forcing Microsoft to bundle Redhat.
Listen to yourselves!
If Microsoft were a monopoly, you guys wouldn't be able to post to Slashdot using Linux. If Microsoft were a monopoly, apple wouldn't be able to sell OSX. If Microsoft were a monopoly, you wouldn't be able to buy machines without Windows installed.
A monopoly is defined as "A company or group having exclusive control over a commercial activity."
Microsoft may control a vast portion of the market, but they're no monopoly. Otherwise, there would be no competition (and therefore no linux).
I'm sure many a fanatic will mod this down.
The key point you leave out is that MS's extensions were in the same namespace as the core language, which is in violation of the spec, whereas none of the other extensions to java (such as Cocoa) did that. Why was such a thing put into the spec? Because the spec was written with platform portability as a goal and one step toward that goal was to make it blatantly obvious to the programmer which parts are standard and which are extensions, by using a naming convention that shows it.
9) Sun cries fowl. Demands MS includes Sun's java because they limited MS's license to an old, obsolete version.
Liar. MS was free to produce any modern version of JAVA they liked. What Sun told them they couldn't do was produce a non-compliant Java and call it "Java". MS had two possible ways to solve it: 1 - Fix their naming conventions to make their newer versions compliant, or 2 - go back to the older version from when it was still in compliance. MS chose to do #2, and then went on a smear campaign designed to make idiots believe this was the only option Sun allowed them to do and that this makes Java a language you should avoid because Sun is vindictive. Unfortunately idiots outnumber thinking poeple, so the smear campaign worked and now their big lie is believed in the IT community.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
The remedy essentially costs MS nothing. They were going to be burning the CD's anyway. I am sure that there were a few extra bytes available on them.
It means that MS can skip trying to make a good JVM and put those resources elsewhere and nobody will have cause to complain.
If the JVM for Windows is buggy or slow it is Sun that catches the flak, not MS. Nobody can claim (as it is essentially was done in the suit) that MS is intentionally making the JVM bad because it is no longer Microsoft's JVM. On the other hand MS will no longer have to worry about having to jump through hoops when Sun ammends the Java Specification.
If then Microsoft makes their .NET clr run rings around Sun's JVM then it will be a matter of the products winning on their own merits, not a matter of MS putting more resources to one than the other. And frankly the odds are pretty good that MS could outprogram Sun. Dislike their business practices all you want but the programmers there are a fairly sharp bunch.
This: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/59/28677.html
They are still at their best shoddy practises. I say sue them into limbo for whatever stunt they pull. Microsoft have shown us time and time again that they themselves doesnt believe in their own offerings since they go to such great lenght to artificially stifle all and every sign of competition.
If Microsoft doesnt think their products is worth a rats ass, why should we?
Im totally "Anything But Microsoft" and my decision seems better and better each day.
HTTP/1.1 400
Except that it probably isn't about money. Sun wants to see Java succeed, because they are Java's daddy. I want to see Java succeed because I like it.
Java has an open spec. You can download open-source JDK's and JRE's (blackdown, Kaffe). I know that Mono is on it's way, but it still doesn't cover the entire language base and runtime. The others do. Sun doesn't hide things from the economy, they may not give out source code freely (though you can obtain it easily), but at least I've got a few options. It doesn't seem that Sun is bitching about that, either.
Sun has a lot to gain from this too. If Java is recognized as a universal base, there will be little incentive not to use it. Why build something in C# and have it run only on MS software, when you can build it in Java and have it run on nearly everything? Sun sells Unix boxen. Sun sells application servers. There is a LOT of money to be made on Application servers.
For those that may say "JBoss exists, why pay anything?" : Realize that Sun is a fantastic name to blame. That's what people are really buying there... "IBM never got someone fired... Sun never got someone fired..." They don't get someone fired because they provide an outlet for frustration. They must provide user / developer support. They must face that fact that there may be lawsuits boiling in the background. If an App server that provides all of the business logic that keeps a multi-billion dollar company afloat goes down, you'd better be sure that you have a big (and rich) entity to sue.
JBoss, JoNas, and others just don't provide that big entity - big money background.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
I'm not siding with Microsoft per se, but what is the point of including the Sun JVM with Windows?
I don't think the masses are buying Windows to write their own Java programs, are they? The main benefit to the average user to have the Sun JVM would be what? To run some ugly Java applet? Don't even get me started on Swing applications.
Regarding Netscape, I would argue that this was Netscape's downfall as well. (Everyone knows how big a piece of crap IE3 was, and everyone knows how big a piece of crap Netscape 4 was. Netscape 4 was Netscape's downfall. Coming out with a competent browser now isn't enough to break the multiyear stranglehold given to Microsoft by Netscape 4.) In the earlier days of the browser wars, people were smart enough to pick the browser that did a better job. Today? I don't know.
Let's be realistic - most users don't need or care about Sun's JVM at this point in time.
In the grand scheme of things, I think most end users have more need for the Macromedia Flash plugin than the Sun JVM. Of course, The Register has a story talking about Microsoft making a hostile bid for Macromedia.
Ultimately, forcing Microsoft to add Java to Windows accomplishes little, since Joe Average won't be impacted in any meaningful way. This is as empty a moral victory as Sun can possibly have. And for the users who actually use Java, it will probably end up being more of an inconvenience, as they'll be upgrading to a more recent version of the VM anyways.
In a story about any other company I could see this being an important story. And I could discussing it on /.
The court orders Microsoft to do a lot of things.
MICROSOFT DOESN'T DO THEM!
The court doesn't follow thru with anything directed at Microsoft. There is no enforcement, no actual punishment.
You wouldn't raise your kids this way. You wouldn't tolerate this kind of behavior from your neighbors. You would expect/demand that the courts stand behind what they say in any other case.
But this is not what happens with Microsoft.
So some lawyers and a judge got their chests all fluffed up and announced that Microsoft will carry java.
If you think that actually means that Microsoft will include java....well, I've got some great real estate deals for you.
Wake up people!
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
There are a lot of posts in this thread that say, in effect, "nobody uses Java on the desktop, so who cares about this decision". Well, I'm a developer who uses Java on the desktop. Why? So that I can deliver cross-platform apps (Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, etc.) from the same codebase. So I can use Java Web Start to securely deliver those apps over the Internet. So that I can use a language that is (IMHO) better than C++. Sure there are a few things that I'd like to see improved in Java, but it's an excellent platform with some unique advantages. Unfortunately, Microsoft's smear campaign has been effective - many users erroneously think that Java is 'dead' or 'bad' or 'slow'.
Look, it's trying to think - Albert Rosenfield
A few moths back there was a story about NatWest (a UK bank) and their peculiar Java based online banking system. Someone tried to login using Mozilla with the latest official Sun JVM. They were presented with a message telling them they were using an incompatible JVM and they should use the proper M$ one as the one they were using 'lacked' important features.
Apart from the irony of the situation, this goes to shows the dangers of the actions of MS. Look at this way, MS adds ActiveX like features to Java, devlopers start using these features, users forced to use the MS JVM, a few years down the line MS suggests to developers "Why not switch from Java to ActiveX controls?, MS drops Java. As a result of this more users are locked in to MS systems as it will become a pain to have a Doze system on hand to access certain website or services.
The same thing happened with the browser wars and is still happening. MS may have pretty much killed off Netscape, but they will continue to add IE specific features to make it a pain for users of other OS's to access certain sites. How many sites fail to work in Linux? Quite a few, the more irritating it is for me to access popular sites the happier MS are.