Slashdot Mirror
Bridging Unix and Windows At NASA
slashdotess writes "Information Week reports: "About a year ago, Patrick McCartney, a Johnson Center project manager, created a Linux desktop environment that could also run government-mandated Microsoft apps. This let his team of 30 engineers continue to program in a Unixlike environment and create Word documents and Outlook E-mail all on the same PC. This mixed-use scenario is slowly taking hold, encouraged by a growing number of applications for running Linux on PC desktops." Score another one for Linux on the Desktop."
Why don't they just get some Macs? Then they can do Word/Office in a native environment instead of some Wine-like UNIX hack.
Ben
If NASA didn't have to use any more MS apps then there would be a victory for Linux.
Save the World! Use a Quote!
This article can be summed up in one sentence: The Johnson Center's IT team installed CrossOver Office from CodeWeavers Inc. on McCartney's PCs to give the engineers access to a variety of open-source and Microsoft Office apps.
Bottom line: They didn't do anything special.
"Score another one for Linux on the desktop". Maybe. But if you read the article it states that the machines replace both UNIX and Windows boxes, which implies that there was some un*x presence in the first place.
IMHO, you will find that, in scientific and academic establishments, un*x and Linux are used a lot, because that's what they have been working with for a long time, and that's where the programming languages are free. If the academics could have their way, a lot of universities would be running Linux already on all their desktop PCs. What? They are? Well, that'll be due to the fact that Linux is now more than passable as an OS for your everyday user.
There's a difference, though, between university students and academics running Linux, and your average office secretary running Linux. It's a difference which I think will still take a long time to erode.
Like car accidents, most hardware problems are due to driver error.
Is this just an example of it's implementation or have they added something new?
Though Bochs and Vmware are great apps, the future lies with projects like Wine. Interoperability is the only way to increase competition and that is why MS should have been forced to open up at least it's API rather than be forced to include competitors programs like Java.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
I have a PC running XP and a G4 Cube and I use them off of one monitor with VNC (mac is server, win is client) and I'll have a nice USB-supported monitor switcher by Xmas!
VPC with XP on OSX was just unacceptable for windows coding and gaming, henc my current setup. I like the UNIXness and Macness but I have to (well, had to) do Windows programming.
"I would say that 99 per cent of what my father has written about his own life is false." - L. Ron Hubbard Jr.
Agreed. Instead of making a hybrid like this, their time would be better spent trying to get NASA to dump MS completely. Point out MS's track record for bugginess and insecurity (do we want script kiddies to be able to fly the space shuttle?), and Linux's freeness (sure, NASA gets volume discounts, but free is still cheaper than a percentage of something). Linux running MS software seems to defeat the whole purpose.
live(free) || die;
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to use Linux...
That's the most logical way to go about things. "DUMPING" windows to jump to Linux may be too drastic. Shifting as and when required/possible, is feasible.
Incedently, Star Wars AOTC was half done on Windows and half on Linux Machines. ILM ended up shifting completely from Windows to Linux.
I've made a beginning by installing my Windows fonts on Linux. Makes life MUCH easier.
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
When I think of my reasons for leaving Microsoft, Word and Outlook are right up there at the top just under reliability. Reliability has always been one thing that Microsoft could never deliver and that is something they have gained and I can agree with them all the way on this. Where do most of the problem virii come from though? Word or Outlook with the occasional one on Excel. I know that you can try to lock them out but you never really succeed.
Open Office is a great office environment that meets all my needs and I have yet to meet someone that genuinely *NEEDS* anything that Word has, that OO does not (I have met some that claim they do but it always turns out that they really mean that once in the past 2 years they once had a situation that would have been easier with Word). I use Evolution instead of Outlook and it is even as good at eye candy. It does every thing and more that I was using Outlook for. The only think Outlook does better is spread virii.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Why can't the government just use Linux and Staroffice instead of wasting a crapload of taxpayer money on Microsoft products? If Denmark's entire school system can do it, so can NASA. There might be other products out there that Microsoft writes for the average desktop PC which become "government-mandated", but I'm sure it's no big deal to find cheap or free alternatives.
How is this a score for linux if people are still using proprietary applications such as word and outlook? Linux isn't linux without the main software being open-source applications created for linux, not microsoft programs being "emulated' on the linux desktop.
Personally, I think this is more a score for microsoft, being able to market their proprietary products to more people.
Stanley Feinbaum, professional journalist and master debater! God bless the USA!
I feel that government should be mandating standards not Apps. But then Microsoft apps would not be aloud.
It's amazing watching Windows users get their first taste of reliability ... and realise what sort of crap they've been putting up with all this time, and that they don't have to any more.
Key marketing point for Unix over Windows: A STABLE, RELIABLE DESKTOP. That doesn't fall over once a day.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
Schools and business are 2 totally different institutions. Not trying to down you, Woogie, but computers used in a school system and a business are not the same. Give ya a good example:
Computers go down at the Board of Education. People can't access budget, students grades, or profile records. Wait until the system comes back up or is restored from backup. It's just annoying since there are no REALLY necessary deadlines outside of payroll.
Computers go down at the office. Sales can't work on/give presentations to clients, customer information can't be retrieved (think ISP or Credit card processor), or quarterly reports can't be completed for stockholders/banks. This can cost a company a TON of money, clients could leave to find another place of business, etc. (Imagine needing the IRS to look up your information to make sure your extension was filed lest you be fined/go to jail.)
Keep in mind, swapping an office or group of offices takes a TON of time. Normally there are a number of in-house applications that would have to be re-written AND heavily tested before they could be implemented (think of the MEGS of VB source that would have to be ported to perl/php/java). In the gov't, MOST applications are custom-written, many by contracted companies, so the gov't doesn't necessarily have the source to it. Then there is retraining of employees to use the new office/email applications, and the meer re-install of EVERYone's machines from Win to Linux where you hope that all the needed hardware is supported (which has gotten SO much better in the past 3 years.)
It's a daunting task, and can be VERY costly in man-hours to do such a task. If nothing else, the down-time upon switching over and the performance curve while everyone learns the new applications.
I agree in the sense that I'd LOVE to see M$ no longer in the gov't offices, but I also realize what it would entail to switch everything over.
-What have you contributed lately?
Don't expect every program people might need to exist or get ported to linux. I know of at least one business that went from win98 to VMware/win98. Of course this means they'll replace what they can with native linux apps as time goes by, but those things take time, money, and nagging many software producers. Plus a gradual changeover is much better for the users and support, which get things slowly instead of a *completely* new system. All the menus/buttons being in different places can be enough of a problem for some. Having a fall-back solution is always good.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
That brings them up to, what, one and a half ?
Exercise caution when modding this message up: the author acts like a jerk when his karma is excellent.
One word. Exchange
You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
1. If NASA says GNULinux administrations costs are too high, think again---surely all these Unix gurus can administer thier own systems little support needed.
2. If NASA says that MS Office Formats are required for standard file formatted documents accross the organization, think again----surely the entire organization switching to OpenOffice.org is a much better way to ENSURE future standardization without upgrade costs.
3. IF NASA says that MS OUTLOOK is needed to standardize email ---- sticking to open and standard protocols as opposed to proprietary and costly protocols is surely the best way to standardization.
4. IF NASA management says that they liked the MS PowerPointless presentation, they probably did, and they probably believed all the points that MS made to them during the presentation. Which explains why we have a GOVERNMENT organization still running PROPRIETARY software and forcing thier users to use MICROSOFT when they don't want to!
5. If NASA made it a REQUIREMENT that ALL of its vendors communicate using OPEN and NON-PROPRIETARY FILE FORMATS as a REQUIREMENT FOR DOING BUSINESS, THEY WOULD!
6. If you told your senator what you think, than you did the right thing. If you did not, than you can blame no one but yourself when GNULinux is OUTLAWED and a copy of PALADIUM is REQUIRED to VOTE.
Get the letters out to the senators folks.
Real men don't need signitures!!!
In any case, if you want good and/or patient support, perhaps you should pay for it rather than using others' valuable free time on public IRC channels, if the free support isn't living up to your expectations.
Also, you haven't any proof that these are actual developers who have harassed you or caused whatever bad experiences you had. It could just as easily have been some 13-year-old jumping into an IRC channel for some fun, acting all l33t, pissing you off to the point of frustration, and then getting kicked later when an op shows up.
LRC, the best-read libertarian site on the web
I have the same problem, I want to use a unix-type environment but I am stuck programming for Windows-only platforms. The solution was provided by Microsoft itself: a terminal services client for OS X.
Now I use my iBook for all MS Office tasks, web programming is done in BBEdit and HTML layouts in Dreamweaver MX. Whenever I need to do something on a SQL Server or configuration of IIS I can use the Remote Desktop Client and use terminal services to do whatever I need to do.
I also tried XP on Virtual PC 6 but found it horribly slow on the iBook. Terminal server will do for now until we phase out IIS and SQL Server and bring up php and MySQL.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
This NASA thingy has raised one of my favourites! Now I love Unix, I work as an SA/DBA, but I notice a lot of people stating, simply dump Windows/Office and get Linux/OpenOff! How many of you have ever worked on a Win/PC help desk? Generally you get calls from people who lose their minds because the send button was moved three inches down or "Word has crashed or is infected with a virus" when the document reload/fix option auto-repairs a doc. These are the sort of people we are hoping to ask to move over to a completely new environment where buttons will be in completely differnet sub-panels and applets. We need time to educate and coax standard desktop users over, not rush in guns blazing stating that "YOU WILL MOVE TO LINUX OR ELSE!", slowly does it!
"I kill you! You no good 56'ing!"
It was proposed, but the Macs make the astronauts all fruity -- in a test they started complaining about the shuttle wallpapers, using words like "flamboyant" over the voice comm and pinching each others' behinds.
As far as I know there are equivalents to these under linux.. Or am I wrong?
You are wrong, sort of. For the home user there are equivalents. However, there are some major functions of both apps that businesses feel they can not give up. The funny thing is, I work in such a business and I have yet to see those features used. Sometimes I think if we would just modify the KDE menu's K to a "start button" then everybody would be able to use Linux.
Right....like if I replaced the yoke in an airplane with a steering wheel, we would all be pilots.
A description of the concept of vaporware - generally considered to be a bad thing.
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
they could bridge the metric/english units thing ;)
You may not realize this, but companies other than Microsoft develop for the Windows-32 platform.
Using crossover is easier than convincing all of your software vendors to port products.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Government has lots of meetings, and the best app for scheduling meetings is MS Outlook/Exchange
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Only problem is the Sun Blade 100 includes a processor designed for telecom switches.
It's so slow that it can barely run CDE
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Seems to me the geek community constantly overestimates the rest of the world's interest in and skills at using computers. Abruptly replacing Windows and Windows apps with Linux and a batch of Windows-wannabe apps would, from where I sit, produce three certain results in any typical office environment: An immediate and precipitous drop in productivity; flooding of tech support and management with questions and demands for training; and simmering discontent as users ask "If it's supposed to be just like Windows, why didn't we keep Windows in the first place?"
Remember, most users are no more interested in their computers than they are in their televisions. They just want them to do what they want them to do in the way they're used to doing that.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
So while you make a good point, it doesn't seem to be Nasa that you need to make your argument to. The problem sounds like it's upstream somewhere, and that itself is a huge problem: why is the federal government forcing its employees to use the software of a tried, convicted, and... well completely unpunished abusive monopoly? Don't take your aggression out on the people that came up with this hack, point it at their bosses & their bosses' bosses, who told them that this is what they have to do.
DO NOT LEAVE IT IS NOT REAL
Most importantly, considering the court-recognized status of MS, shouldn't Federal dollars not be spent in supporting a monopoly?
I've seen this phenomena too many times. a site has a zillion pc techs and 1 mac tech. rather than conclude the obvioust that PCs need higher levels of support they usually vote to go to a single PC platform, and the poor single mac tech is outvoted.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Dear Unix user, welcome to mac. If you trust me you will just do all of the following without asking why, before you start whining about features you miss. The following is a no-fat-added list of essential customization for unix users converting to the mac world.
/Applications/Utilities. Drag the terminal.app to the Dock
/Users
/etc/fstab file. It does not matter where you put it since the mac will ignore it. To mount the disks type "sudo niload fstab" followed by the file path name. However, don't do this right away till you have more experience. Instead do the following. /hostpath is the exported fs. The disk will be mounted in /Volumes and be "aliased" to the desktop.
/usr/bin/Netscape & /Applications/Netscape
1. The Mouse.
Go buy a 3 button USB mouse. Make sure you get an optical mouse with a wheel. Buy the most expensive one you can. Heriditary mac users prefer a 1 button mouse, but you wont.
2. The Terminal.
Open
3. File system journaling
Open the terminal.app and type
sudo diskutil enableJournal
Just do it. This can be undone and you can change how you want it later.
4. The Compiler
Regardless of what compiler you prefer, you need the native compiler and libs. Go to
http://developer.lanl.gov and register for free. Enter the site and select the downloads option. Scroll through the list till you find "developer tools", download and install it.
5. Installing GNU ports part 1.
Goto http://sourceforge.com and find the latest stable release of "fink" for mac os X. download and install it. There will be some questions to answer, just choose the defaults except if offered, ask it to get updates from CVS.
6. Install X-windows part 1
If you have 5 hours to you can wait, type in the terminal
fink install xfree86-rootless
this is preferred as it gets the latest release of a fast changing package.
If you are in a hurry you can install the binary.
Type
sudo dselect
Quick intro to dselect: after some preliminaries you are offered the chance to choose packages from a list. Use the down-arrow key to move down and find xfree86-rootless.
Press the + key to select it. You will be offered "conflict resolution": accept the defaults by pressing return. Then return again to exit the selection. DO NOT GET GREEDY and select other packages yet. Finish the installation.
7. Installing X-windows part 2: the window manager
You may prefer fvwm2 or some other window manager but take my advice and try out oroborus first. Oroborus does things the mac way, and later you will be glad you did even if its not familiar at first. Oroborus deliberately eschews many popular features, letting the OS provide those services. For example, if you want virtual screens you DO NOT want them as part of the windows manager! You want them as part of Aqua so that they apply to both aqua and to x-windows. Likewise you want the Dock to manage minimizing windows not the window manager.
Go to http://apple.com click the OSX tab, then the downloads tab and find oroborus.
Note: the oroborus that comes with Fink/dselect is not quite the same thing.
8. Installing GNU ports part 2.
Use dselect or fink to install a few packages. Fink has about 2000 packages available including your favorite parts of kde and gnome. To see what's avalaible type
fink list | more
just for practice try installing gv (ghost view) and xemacs.
Remember, dselect will install binaries (fast), and fink will install source (slow), generally dselect is a good idea. Once a month type "fink update-all" or update packages in dselect.
9. Text editor
Goto http://www.barebones.com and get a free copy of bbedit "lite". I recommend buying the full version, especially to geeks. Note that you can save files in unix/mac/PC formats which have different end of line characters. Despite the name, on a mac you should normally use unix format. Mac mode is mainly for historic reasons but gums up unix commands. Even if this (amazingly) does not turn out to be your preferred editor, you should install it anyhow so that it is there for guests.
10. Mounting network disks
You can mount NFS disks by creating a file that looks just like the usual
In the finder window, select go>servers. In the text field type
nfs://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx/hostpath
Where xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx is the ip address or domain name of the host with the disk, and
To mount windows network disks we use
smb://xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx/path
Be nice and unmount your disks (throw them in the trash) before disconnecting from the net.
11. using X windows across the network.
All the usual stuff (like xhosts and DISPLAY) works as expected. However you do need to activate oroborus (which will fire up X-windows) since its not on by default. However, before you do this let me suggest an alternative you may find better. Goto http://apple.com and on the osx downloads page locate VNCdimension (or VNCthing) and install this application. On the X windows client, run vncserver. And on the mac attatch to it using VNC dimension. On anything but the fastest network connection you will find this smoother and faster than using x-windows. Plus its more secure and even runs through firewalls. At present much of X-windows on the mac is not graphics accelerated, but VNC dimension which runs in aqua is.
12. Shortcuts worth knowing about
On your unix machine to run netscape you type
on a mac you type
open
to open the file browser at the current working directory type
open . (note the period)
to open a web page type
open http://macosxhints.com
13. Pitfalls
There are few pitfalls in the file system you need to know about early on.
First be careful with cp,mv,rsync, and tar. For 99.9% of the time they work as expected. But a lot of mac applications and mac documents store info in something called the "resource fork" of a file. Unix files only have a single data fork. Mac files have a data and a resource fork. The data fork is the same as what you would see on the unix system. The resource fork can contain almost anything, but usually contains unimportant meta-information about the file itself like what app created it, and so on. But sometimes it contains crucial information (e.g quicken).
When you do a unix cp or mv or tar all you get are the data forks. The rule of thumb is this: if your file can be used by a unix program then dont worry about the resource fork. Most modern mac apps do not use the resource fork but older ones do.
Second, mac filenames are case-insensitive but case preserving. Thus ReadME and readme are the same file.
Third, unfortunately, for backwards compatibility there are two different kinds of soft links on a mac. One is the usual unix soft link and the other is the "alias" function of the OS. The OS is smart enough to recognize the unix links and treat them as file aliases in the GUI. But the reverse is not true. Generally you are better off using the unix soft links.
Fourth, macs have three layers of file permissions where unix has one. Macs have the usual unix permissions. Plus there is an ability to lock a file against changes or deletion, and finally there is the ability to lock a file against modification even by root. generally you wont ever need either of the latter two, but you may someday find a file you cant seem to delete! just in case, the normal file lock is accessed via "get info"
Fifth, fstab, exports, shadowpassword, passwd, and most unix configs don't work the way you expect. Use the admin tools to alter netinfo configuration data. (see root below)
14. Thinking mac-like.
First off you never need to touch the other mouse buttons outside of x-windows. Second, try to adopt apple applications where they exist to replace you current favorites. For example, use the mail.app instead of pine or Eudora. Sure these have nice features, but long term apple apps will stay more tightly integrated: for example, mail.app links to addressbook which links to iCal. Third, Chill-out dude. Macs force you to do things a certain ways with warning dialog boxes or focus-on-click windows. These are not worse than other ways, and long term you will come to see the benefits from the cross-application uniformity of operations. Unmount disks, especially network disks, by tossing them in the trash. (you may want to add an eject button to the finder menu)
15. Viruses, Worms, holes, etc...
Regularly use the software update feature. Bugs get patched quickly. Historically, the only security holes you must stay on top of are Microsoft Internet Explorer holes, Microsoft Entourage/outlook holes, and Microsoft macro viruses. Don't bother worrying about anything else till you worry about these. Many people use Chimera for this reason.
16. Root
If you read just one book try "mac OS X for unix geeks", most other books aren't for you because they are trying to explain unix to mac-heads. Avoid using root when you can use an admin tool or sudo instead. Apple has not fully document root admin, so stick with tools. Except don't ever play with netinfo manager or niload until you have a lot of experience, as there is no faster way to make your mac unbootable.
17. Goodies
There are virtual window managers at mac OSX downloads.
Try out Watson at http://www.karelia.com/watson/
Microsoft office X is a great program even if it is made by Microsoft.
Scientific plotting: You may like Igor from wavemtrics.com since it has both command line and menu driven interface. Fink comes with R, Octave and Gnu-plot. Mathematicians may prefer mathematica.
If you have a powerbook, put the dock on the left and make it small.
Turn off autostart on OS 9.0
Discover iTunes.
Consider a mac.com account
Read http://macosxhints.com
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
It's just annoying since there are no REALLY necessary deadlines outside of payroll.
Baloney. Schools run on tighter schedules than most businesses. Try telling a parent that you can't get out a transcript for an application deadline, or a student they can'r get the records they need for a financial aid application.
The Johnson Center's IT team installed CrossOver Office Server Edition. There's a difference - the Server Edition lets you run MS apps from a server on a Linux thin client.
Reminder: find a new sig
As someone else pointed out - a group moving from another Unix platform to Linux is a group not moving to Windows. I know that there are other Unix environments even within the Directorate that McCartney works that moved from HP/UX and Solaris to WinNT / 2K. Despite the engineer's preferences. Cheap hardware is a strong draw for management. Linux provides a link between the preferred Unix (or unix-like) environment and commodity hardware pricing.
It might also be worth mentioning that the more Linux is used, the more the JSC / NASA environment becomes used to seeing Linux. And once they're familiar with it, they're much more likely to accept it as a solution. Old biases against "freeware" fade. And "Microsoft" is no longer the knee-jerk response to any form of IT question.
Finally, you have to consider the internal politics within JSC's IT environment. JSC was, at the direction of CIO Jack Garman, heavily Microsoft centric. The great exodus of Mac workstations was due to this policy. As was the slow shift away from Unix to WinNT. Today, JSC is still widely Microsoft centric. The "requirement" mentioned has more to do with the need to handle certain Microsoft protocols and data formats for day-to-day office automation than specific policy. The fact that Linux solutions are being implemented shows that the old single-vendor mentality is no longer the guiding force within JSC. And that's a win for Linux... and everyone else. Except, perhaps, Microsoft.
Idiot?
Ignorant?
Imbecile?
Indefensible?
In Microsoft's pocket?
If you're speaking of an office environment in which employees have no choice of OS or applications, then, in my experience, often little or no thought is given to all the costs of moving to a new OS and new applications. For a large organization, even the introduction of a single new application on a familiar OS -- say, for example, the replacement of Lotus Notes by Exchange -- will pull employees away from their jobs for at least 8 hours worth of training (typically buy a contract staff billing several thousand dollars or more). Add to that the actual cost of the installation, training the support staff, and absorbing the spike in one-to-one support ("where'd my archived mail go!!?"), and you tally up real costs that are there even if everything else is gratis. Imagine the extra costs inherent in switching out the entire OS and all the familiar apps.
Because of the gap in understanding between management and its IT staff (sustained, in many cases, I think, by mutual disdain for the other's profession), management often buys into new software that provides little or no improvemen.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Remember, most users are no more interested in their computers than they are in their televisions. They just want them to do what they want them to do in the way they're used to doing that.
I wish my television did what I want it to...
Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!
http://www.apple.com/ibook/
$999 with 6-hour battery life.
Switch away.
put the what in the where?
I'm wondering why outlook is a 'government-mandated' app. It's hard to see the difference between an email generated by outlook or another email app. Why force people to use an app, while there are plenty of different compatible apps available?
Because Outlook is used for other things besides sending and receiving e-mail. If my boss sends me a meeting invitation, and I click Accept, I get a reminder popup 15 minutes before the meeting. I want other people on my team to be able to see certain e-mails, so I set up a rule to filter them into a folder with a few clicks of the mouse (the rule is stored server-side, not client-side, so it works when I'm offline), then I share that folder so each member of my team has access to it - maybe read-only access, maybe full read/write, depending on what I need - but they can't access the rest of my mail at all.
There are other ways of doing these things, and there are plenty of features in Outlook that I never use, but this stuff only works if everybody is doing it the same way, so you have to standardize on something, and Outlook is the existing standard. Managers love it. Try training a manager to set up appointments with something other than Outlook. They won't be happy.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
LRC, the best-read libertarian site on the web
LRC, the best-read libertarian site on the web