Professors vs. WiFi

Some thoughts by bunyip · 2003-01-02 01:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

We have the same problem where work, people who sit in meetings and work their email, pounding away with their thumbs and not paying attention. Many of these people don't really contribute to the meetings anyway, so it's not that great a problem.

As for universities, grades are the answer. My guess is that these students want to work chat and email in class, yet pull an easy "A" at the end of the semester. When they get a "C", or fail a class, perhaps they will make the right decision. If not, it's evolution in action.

Re:Some thoughts by sporty · 2003-01-02 01:28 · Score: 4, Insightful

As for universities, grades are the answer. My guess is that these students want to work chat and email in class, yet pull an easy "A" at the end of the semester. When they get a "C", or fail a class, perhaps they will make the right decision. If not, it's evolution in action.

If I'm making no noise, and have an easy grasp of the course material, who says I have to sit there or even take notes unless the class requires participation? I've had a disdain for professors who either require attendance and/or "undevided attention" when I know the course material or no participation in class ins necessary.

At work, yes. You are required to participate in meetings. But in college, it's totally different.

--
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Re:Some thoughts by tmark · 2003-01-02 02:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

who says I have to sit there or even take notes unless the class requires participation? I've had a disdain for professors who either require attendance and/or "undevided attention" when I know the course material or no participation in class ins necessary.

As a former teacher at a major university, I can say that I wouldn't care if you don't pay attention. I *would* care, however, when students are checking their email or IM'ing each other because that activity inevitably distracts other students who *are* trying to pay attention, just the same as students who are whispering to each other constantly or passing notes. Images changing on a screen in front of a student can't help but draw their attention away. Hell, if laptops weren't necessary for a particular class, I would even consider disallowing use of *those* because the cacophony of keyboards-a-clicking is very distracting.

My stance was always that I didn't care if you came to class or not, but I did care if your decision affected other students.

A sign of the times by sboyko · 2003-01-02 01:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

Call me old-fashioned, but I wish for the days when you had a chance of having someone's complete attention. These days of cellphones, PDAs and laptops mean that distractions are commonplace.

Sure, many classes are very boring and students will lose interest regardless of what toy is in front of them, but I think professors have a right to limit distactions.

--
SCO, Microsoft, P2P, what's your hot button?

Re:A sign of the times by SerpentMage · 2003-01-02 01:34 · Score: 3, Interesting

What people do not realize is that people have become multi-tasking capable.

I run two computers concurrently. And have two screens for one so that I can log remotely into another couple of machines. Usually I have the TV going as I work.

My point? I multi-task and it was something I honed over years. If I had to solely listen to the professeur I would daydream and get bored because he would not speak fast enough. These days most people are very verbose and 60% of what they say is a repeat of the original text.

Do the professors have a right to limit distractions? NO! If the student does not make noises then the professeur has no right to say anything. When I was in university I used to doodle, talk, sleep while the professeur was talking. When the professeur was interesting then I listened. And that is the key, the professeur has to get you excited about learning. Classes do not have to be boring! That is what many professeurs do not understand. Remember a professeur is there to teach you, not be in awe of their "brillance".

--

"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Re:A sign of the times by fucksl4shd0t · 2003-01-02 01:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

While going to school I didn't have these things other than a PDA need the end of my schooling. I didn't then, nor do I now see the need for these devices.

I'm sure at one time people didn't see the need for kids to take pen and paper to class either. It's a new age, and there are new tools available to help kids learn more stuff, and learn it better. We should encourage their use for learning, rather than discouraging their use entirely.

It's up to the professor to exploit the tools the kids have. For example, what if the professor says "Can somebody do a quick Google search to see what the consequences of the US joining the second world war later would have been?". Admitted, it's a contrived example, but computers are a powerful informational tool, and professors are to teach information. They should exploit this tool.

It still disheartens me to see all the students just wasting their time.

Students have always, and will always waste their time. This is a fact of life. If they are interfering with the class with their time-wasting, that's a human problem. Removing the computers will not solve this problem, because the problem existed long before computers were even invented.

New toys are fun but they do not work well in an academic environment.

The fact that computers are treated as toys is in itself, the problem. Make them a tool for education, not a toy for distraction. This is up to the professors and not the students, really. Wouldn't it be great if the professor gave html versions of their class notes to their students to view during the lecture? Then the student could fill them in with more detail than they would have had if they had to take the notes completely themselves, and then have more information to use while studying. At least the information would have more depth, and therefore be more meaningful.

Hell, I'm against putting a computer in every classroom in primary schools. What use is a computer that occasionally gets used to play some dumb little educational game this is several levels below what is being taught in the class.

This is also a human problem. Again, like I've said several times before, this is people not exploiting the tools that they have before them. It's up to the teacher to use the tool to benefit the class. Do the teachers need better software to do this? Arguably, yes. Do the teachers need training to exploit this tool? Definitely, yes. Does it do any good to slap one in every classroom (or on every kid's desk, where it could do the most good) without providing the necessary infrastructure (including software) to use it? No.

A tool is only as useful as the people using them allow them to be. Computers are a great tool for storing, retrieving, modeling, et al, information. Let's use them that way. But they still only do what they've been told to do.

--
Like what I said? You might like my music
Re:A sign of the times by Kombat · 2003-01-02 01:56 · Score: 5, Interesting

What people do not realize is that people have become multi-tasking capable.

*raises eyebrows* Excuse me? We've "become" multi-tasking capable? Humans have been multi-tasking capable for thousands of years. It's part of our nature. And who, exactly, doesn't "realize" this, as you assert?

I don't mean to rip on you SerpentMage, I just get irritated at people who not only think they've just "discovered" something that's obviously extremely old, but who also think they're in some sort of elite few who know it. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not that special. Virtually everyone multi-tasks, you just don't see it because you're too in awe of your own mastery of simultaneously reading Slashdot and watching Star Trek, while compiling a kernel.

Classes do not have to be boring! That is what many professeurs do not understand.

Again, this is a ridiculous statement, offered only to serve your own ego. I challenge you to find me one single professor anywhere on the planet who sincerely believes that "classes are supposed to be boring." That's absurd. No one thinks that.

And at the risk of turning this into a spelling flame, perhaps you should have paid more attention to your English professor while you were busy learning to multi-task in grade 8.

--
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
Re:A sign of the times by MattJ · 2003-01-02 03:42 · Score: 3, Insightful

"It's up to the professor to exploit the tools the kids have. For example, what if the professor says "Can somebody do a quick Google search to see what the consequences of the US joining the second world war later would have been?". Admitted, it's a contrived example, "

I'll cut you slack because it was an example pulled out of your hat. But it really would be a terrible use of a computer in the classroom. Your professor is asking for not just a simple, noncontroversial "fact", but rather a historical judgement.

Even if you could come up with a decent Google query and find a good matching page within a minute or two (before the class moves on), you don't have time to read and assess the argument. All you can do is parrot what you've found. This is a good question for an essay, written with careful consideration, but not good for a quick in-class lookup.

Also, this is a good example of one of the biggest dangers of Googling, particularly for students. I'll call it the Law of Distorted Significance, though someone else may have described this otherwise. In a database of content and metacontent (e.g., Google) which is sufficiently large and diverse (created by millions of people around the world), you will find nearly *anything*. That much is shown by the difficulty of googlewhacking. The danger is that you can conclude that what you've found has real significance.
Re:A sign of the times by Carmody · 2003-01-02 04:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

What people do not realize is that people have become multi-tasking capable.

I've been a professor for many years. I've won awards for my teaching. I have a strong reputation among students for being a good teacher. So I am not just being a dick when I say:

What students do not realize is that they are not as multi-tasking capable as they think.

I am not being paid by you to lecture for a micro-century and then go home. I am not being paid by you to give you tests and grade them. You are paying for my expertise in teaching you the material. I say that when you are in my class you should be paying attention. You don't think that you should have to. You know what? I know more about this issue than you do. I say that when you are in my class, and we break into groups to discuss a calculus topic, that you should be listening to and talking to your classmates for that part of class. You don't see the point. You know what? I know more about this issue than you do. You are paying for my judgement.

Part of college may be the process of learning "time management" and all that, but you know what? I don't give a shit. In my calculus class, the only thing I care about is that you learn calculus. And, as a result of my experience in teaching, and research in education, I've found that if I insist on your attention, you will learn a hell of a lot more about it. I've done experiments to that end, have you? I've read literature about it. Have you? I've taught calculus to thousands of students. Have you?

My classes are usually interesting, according to my students, so this isn't that much of an issue for me. But you know what? You would have learned more if you listened all the time. Not all subjects are Monty Python's Flying Circus. Even though my classes tend to be fun in general, sometimes I will warn the students, "Gang, this is going to be a dry fifty minutes, and I'm sorry." and then I will procede to bore the fuck out of them. (Measure Theory wouldn't "VOOM" if you put four million volts through it) There are techniques that, as a professor, I can employ to help you through the dull spots. But even if a professor doesn't do that, tough titty.

If I had to solely listen to the professeur I would daydream and get bored because he would not speak fast enough

Then daydream. Get bored. Life is not always like Nintendo. If all of your professors bore you, then maybe you are in the wrong major, or at the wrong university.

I have not mentioned my particular policies re: attendence, laptops, doodling, etc. My policies are irrelevant to this discussion. The point is that you are paying the professor to exercise her or his judgment when setting those policies, and the professor likely knows more about it than you do.

--
God is real unless declared integer
Re:A sign of the times by Lumpy · 2003-01-02 05:24 · Score: 3, Interesting

There ARE some Amazing people out there..

I remember one kid in high school that would Doodle with his left hand, take notes with his right hand and read something from a different class.. the teacher many times tried to bust "steve"... by saying when she was sure he was just screwing around.. "so what is the answer to this steve?" and without even looking up from his math book would give the correct answer... usually like "That's really easy... it's Sodium-di-chromate in an aquous solution" or something else that blew her mind, and everyone else.

There are TRUE multitaskers... who really can do many things at once... and they are ultra rare...

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

Shouldn't matter by Alizarin+Erythrosin · 2003-01-02 01:19 · Score: 4, Funny

If the class is interesting then the students will stay on task, not check their email and etc. At the university I attend they have wireless access in a number of buildings with plans to add it to others as well as outdoors in the major gathering areas. I find it helps out with class because you can download the class notes and follow along or look up a website the prof is talking about in his lecture.

On a funny side note one guy in one of my classes WAS looking up pr0n while in class, all the people behind him were wide-eyed looking at it... that's how he got busted.

--
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't

Re:Shouldn't matter by Kombat · 2003-01-02 01:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

If the class is interesting then the students will stay on task

Not everyone finds network analysis interesting, but it is a required part of the cirriculum for many comp sci degrees. Some people find it fascinating.

It is not the material that makes it boring or interesting, it is the student. People have different interests. Not all subjects are inherently interesting to everyone. But they still must learn it, if they want that piece of paper.

--
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.

How sad... by muyuubyou · 2003-01-02 01:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

...it is that new technologies find OPPOSITION at Universities so often. It really makes you think.

Maybe if teachers worked with technology instead by HanzoSan · 2003-01-02 01:21 · Score: 5, Insightful

of bashing the technology and blaming it for them being terrible and boring with their lectures they'd be fine.

Look, technology is good, WiFi is good, a smart teacher would use WiFi and the fact that all the students have laptops and AIM to their advantage, to get the students communicating better with each other through AIM, and to talk about the class.

The teacher could even bring his own laptop, add their AIM screen names to his AIM account, and talk to students via AIM.

This is college not highschool, a teacher cannot try to blame the students for lack of attention, students pay you with THEIR money so that you can get their attention, these people want to learn and pay to learn, if you arent doing a good job and they think your lecture is a complete waste of time they dont have to pay attention.

I've had great teachers give lectures and it doesnt even feel like a lecture, it feels like conversation because the teacher gets people involved, its even entertaining sometimes!

Then we have lectures where teachers read off a peice of paper going down a list of things they must talk about, perhaps some boring as hell subject like computer programmer, and the teacher is from india and cannot speak english properly, some people just should not lecture!!!

In this situation you'd be better off getting your information from the internet than listening to the lecturer guide you step by step on how to write hello world.

Wi Fi is good, schools need to learn to use technology to their advantage.

--
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac

Re:Attention span by Bob+McCown · 2003-01-02 01:21 · Score: 4, Insightful

Another thing I heard many of the professors in college say, when a student or ten were not paying attention, was "Well, some of you arent playing attention, but, its not my $BIGNUM a year you're spending, and I dont have to tell your parents why you failed this class."

We had this problem too... by $0+31337 · 2003-01-02 01:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

We had this problem at the university that I work at as the DBA. Professors were irked at students not paying attention to the class and instead chatting on IM or playing games. The solution that we came up with is a website that a professor can visit on our intranet and select the level of wireless blocking that he/she would like for a given class. The different levels are things like Web Access Only, Web & Email, Email Only, All, and None (the default of course is all access is allowed unless otherwise specified). The results are then stored in our central database. The second part of the program is a linux box that runs some perl code every minute out of cron. It checks to see if there are any blocks issued for any of the classes that are starting on this minute. If there are, it pulls out a list of all students that are enrolled in the given class from the database and then dynamicly creates a snort rule file which just blasts out TCP resets to the local user effectivly blocking them. This solution has worked well for us with of course the exception of students being angry. I personally agree with the professors on this one simply because if you are in one of their classes and you bother to show up, your on their time at that point. If you don't want to pay attention then simply don't go. Just an opinion :)

Wish I had wireless when I was a student. by reaper20 · 2003-01-02 01:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

Quick google searches/FAQs would have helped me understand more of those obtuse subjects.

What the professor is really thinking is "Crap, this lesson is a one page 'for dummies' FAQ online, I better pad this with some bullshit."

Exactly, by HanzoSan · 2003-01-02 01:23 · Score: 4, Interesting

Unlike highschool, people pay to go to college. Its not logical to pay for something you dont REALLY want.

So if you pay to hear them lecture and they just suck, its not your fault, you paid them, they just suck. Highschool is different, you dont really want to be there, you are just stuck there.

Professors need to earn their salaries, at my school the students actually EVALUATE the teachers, teachers who cannot give good lectures recieve poor ratings.

--
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac

Re:Exactly, by benzapp · 2003-01-02 01:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

Unlike highschool, people pay to go to college. Its not logical to pay for something you dont REALLY want.

Well, this is LAW school we are talking about. Prior to 80 years ago, most states did not require lawyers to go to law school, and those that did not require an undergraduate degree as a prerequisite. (note, lawyering used to be like a trade, you worked as an apprentice. This is still required in Canada) Law school as we know it today was created to make it exceedingly difficult for lower classes to become involved with the American system of jurisprudence.

That being said, law school doesn't really teach you anything. As the article states, most of these teachers are stuck in the 1970's, during the great heyday of the wealthy elite ruling the universities thinking they knew what was best for America. The "Paper Chase" is nowhere near accurate today.

The reality is that Law is being changed by the internet more than any other profession. You used to pay for the experience a lawyer gains over a lifetime. But now, anyone with a credit card can go to Westlaw or Lexis-Nexis and find tons of resources.

But students get it for free. This makes the entire research process infinitely easier, as well as makes the process of summarizing cases for class discussion much easier. Many cases are already summarized online.

The teachers hate this more than anything. Between the internet and the many hornbooks and study guides available, most teachers know students don't learn jack shit in class. All class teaches you is how deal with pressure. Personally, I believe that is questionable, but in the face of overwhelming evidence that class instruction is not required to do well on an exam they have to claim something.

The point? No one WANTS to go to class in law school. It sucks. But, if you want to be a lawyer you have to go. So people go through the motions, and try and look busy.

--
I don't read or respond to AC posts

Not a distraction by abesottedphoenix · 2003-01-02 01:23 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'm currently an online student. Everyone always uses the "Don't you get distracted?" line on me. The answer is no. There's been one class that I've had so far where I didn't pay attention, and that was due to a crappy professor.
God forbid that the college tuition we pay, that has topped the CPI for so long, be used to recruit better professors instead of funding projects that students don't use.

Phoenix

Professors are being paid... by mikeboone · 2003-01-02 01:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

In my day :), we had no wi-fi, so I would sit in the back of unimportant classes and do the school paper's crossword puzzle. I was quiet and didn't bother anyone, and was just there in case something important came up like a test date or critical part of a lecture.

That seems reasonable to me for many of the undergrad courses I took, which I only took because they were requirements.

At any rate, professors were being paid with my money...they shouldn't care if I skipped class or did the crossword or surfed the net as long as I didn't disturb any of the other students.

Not high school by airuck · 2003-01-02 01:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

I have taught several university courses in computer labs and can sympathize with the distraction of having to compete with email and the web, but this article is not about high school. University students are paying customers and instructors are employees. It may be rude to the instructor, but as long as they are distracting other students, then it is their choice. Of course, I am far less likely to assist a student who spent more time chatting (on line or off) than a student really working to master the material.

--
First entomology, then virology, and finally bioinformatics systems. Bugs follow me wherever I go.

So whats the role of the professor that you pay? by HanzoSan · 2003-01-02 01:34 · Score: 3, Interesting

So I can be a professor, I can say a bunch of words, blah blah blah blah for about an hour or two, and you the student are required to stare at me while I say "blah blah blah" for 2 hours, and if you dont stare directly at me, I get to keep your money but you get to pay me again to take my class again until you can stand my class for 2 hours of listening to "blah blah blah"

Who wins here? Why should I the student pay YOU the professor to give YOU the professor my attention? What do I get out of this deal?

I should be paying you to GET my attention, to EARN it by giving good lectures, not paying you just for you to show up, because thats bullshit.

--
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac

What is wrong with kids today? by hayden · 2003-01-02 01:35 · Score: 5, Funny

Why can't they just fall asleep like generations of uni students before them? It prepares you for later life when you need to look attentive and not drool in meetings.

Sigh, the times we live in.

--
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.

Re:Maybe if teachers worked with technology instea by the_rev_matt · 2003-01-02 01:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

Technology is not good. Technology is technology. It is neither good nor evil. Like any other tool, it can be used for many different things. In the examples you give, technology isn't the solution. Better teachers is the solution. You're trying to apply a technological solution to a sociological problem and it doesn't work. Yes, wi can be used to great advantage in schools and it should be.
Kids surfing porn/slashdot/etc during class is not integral to the education process.

The teacher could even bring his own laptop, add their AIM screen names to his AIM account, and talk to students via AIM

Um, they're all in the same room, why on earth would that be of any use to anyone? They don't need their computer with them at all times to add someone to their AIM list unless they are incapable of writing it down on a piece of paper (a distinct possibility in our age of techno-worship).

This is college not highschool, a teacher cannot try to blame the students for lack of attention, students pay you with THEIR money so that you can get their attention, these people want to learn and pay to learn, if you arent doing a good job and they think your lecture is a complete waste of time they dont have to pay attention.

Have you been to college? I knew many students who felt that since they were paying to attend, they should be guaranteed passing grades and shouldn't have to be bothered with things like homework or tests or showing up. My dad taught college for 30+ years and in the last 10 I can't count the number of parents who had the same attitude. "We're paying your salary, you have to give him a passing grade even if he never came to class."

--
this is getting old and so are you

blog

Distracting by kEnder242 · 2003-01-02 01:39 · Score: 3, Funny

Reminds me of when I nearly flunked calc II because they stuck computers in front of us in the classroom. We didn't have web browsers but ftp worked just fine.

I remember downloading shareware quake from cdrom.com and playing a few multiplayer...

teacher walks over "what next?"
me "uhh derive it!" (always the best answer)

The funnest part was using something similar to winpopup (must have been netware or something) and typing "pay attention!" to people across the room.

--
my associative arrays can kick your hash - TCL

Why use AIM when everyone is in the same room? by MyNameIsFred · 2003-01-02 01:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

Am I missing something? Why use AIM if everyone is sitting in the same room? It's a lot easier just to raise your hand and say something. I agree that technology could be better employed in the classroom, but this doesn't seem to be the answer.

As for bad profs, I agree. The problem is the University makes a lot of money off of research grants. Hence, they're very interested in how much research money the prof will bring in, and not interested enough in how well the prof teaches. In my view, the priorities are skewed. I long for the legendary days before "publish or perish."

Re:Maybe if teachers worked with technology instea by JimDabell · 2003-01-02 01:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

Maybe if teachers worked with technology instead of bashing the technology and blaming it for them being terrible and boring with their lectures they'd be fine.

Okay, but you have to realise that wifi doesn't really add many possibilities to a lecture beyond what is capable with projectors and simple discussion. For instance:

The teacher could even bring his own laptop, add their AIM screen names to his AIM account, and talk to students via AIM.

As opposed to simply talking to them?

This is college not highschool, a teacher cannot try to blame the students for lack of attention

Agreed 100%. It's the student's responsibility to learn using the available resources - if they dick around instead of paying attention, then they won't get very far.

Then we have lectures where teachers read off a peice of paper going down a list of things they must talk about, perhaps some boring as hell subject like computer programmer, and the teacher is from india and cannot speak english properly, some people just should not lecture!!!

Been there, done that...

In this situation you'd be better off getting your information from the internet than listening to the lecturer guide you step by step on how to write hello world.

In this situation, you'd be better off pointing it out to their superiors. If the lecturer is redundant, then it's a waste of money to employ them. If there is anything to be gained from having a lecturer, then their students are being cheated.

I don't see how "lecture notes available through the internet" translates to "wifi in lecture halls is useful" though. If the lectures aren't useful to you, skip them and download the notes from wherever you like.

Life is not MTV by wazzzup · 2003-01-02 01:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'm going to have to side with the professors on this one. I recall an earlier post that it's the professor's fault for not providing an entertaining enough lecture. I'm sorry, but I would never hire a person that I knew felt that way.

Life is not a constant stream of entertainment. The most rewarding things in life come from blood, sweat and tears and an education is one of them. While I think you should enjoy your chosen field of study, I don't think is has to compete on the same level as the latest Eminem video or an email of how your friend saw this really hot chick at Wal-Mart.

Besides, I don't even think it's possible to make all courses entertaining to all. Do you as, say a programmer, expect to really get into Classic Greek Literature 540 as a form of entertainment?

Does Sesame Street have a university?

Re:Life is not MTV by budalite · 2003-01-02 02:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

Ah, Finally. Something to reply to. As an old guy returning to school, I had forgotten that good teachers at any level are the exception, rather than the rule. Teachers who are interested in whether someone else understands the material and will actually take the time to learn how to teach, learn how people learn, and care whether each and every student does the best s/he can are, unfortunately, in the minority. I have taken 4 classes at a major U. here in VA. Two of the teachers, one a professor, essentially mailed in their work. The third was simply incompetent and never should have considered teaching. The fourth, ah, the fourth, was a little lady, a "converted" Classics Prof. teaching CS I to a auditorium of newbies, made CS a joy. She translated her love of the subject , love of teaching, and concern for her students into a course where going to class was one of the highlights of my week.
Sure, life's tough. You gotta take what you can get and do your best, often in spite of the obstabcles. I do wonder, however, how many careers were launched by that lady and how many careers were re-directed or just doused by the others. (ps. And why can't Classic Greek Literature 540 be interesting? Who would you rather talk to? Someone who talks to you because they have to or because they want to?)

As an... by craenor · 2003-01-02 01:43 · Score: 3, Informative

Instructor myself...I would just declare certain lecture times to be "computer's down". When I'm trying to get across a critical point, I would make people close their laptops, stop writing away on their notes and just listen to me.

When I'm confident that they've gotten the point or the majority of them had, I would then hand out an addendum to their notes covering what we just discussed.

This would be a commonplace event, happening most likely once per classroom day.

Teachers are teachers, not babysitters by goldspider · 2003-01-02 01:47 · Score: 3, Insightful

By the time a student is of university age, it should be their responsibility to stay on task, not the teacher's to keep them there. Whether a student pays attention and takes notes and whatnot, or instead does his or her own thing on the Internet, their level of diligence will be reflected in the grades.

It is the teacher's job to teach, not make sure that everyone is paying attention and doing their work. A good teacher will try to get everyone involved (it's especially funny when they call on a sleeping student to answer a question; that kind of embarassment solves a lot of attention problems). But it is not their job to assume the responsibility that ultimately belongs to the students.

Now in grade school, this is a little more complicated, but that's a discussion for another article...

--
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy

Social Engineering? by rf600r · 2003-01-02 01:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

Ok, so studets are being rude and disrespectful, and teh solution is to unplug the network? Why not ask that students NOT use their computers during a lecture? You know, act like grownups?

Don't give me this "I pay your salary BS." If you don't want to listen to the lecture, stay in your room and surf porn. But, if I'm the teacher, it is my duty to deliver what you paid me to deliver. If I ask you to kindly treat me with a tad bit of respect and close the lid on your laptop, then just do it.

Re:Social Engineering? by HanzoSan · 2003-01-02 01:59 · Score: 4, Funny

So teachers get paid even if they suck and students get punished when teachers suck?

What responsibility does a professor have besides showing up if this is the case?

They show up and they get paid, you show up and you have to follow strict guidelines on how to pay attention and act interested. Oh and you have to pay them for it.

--
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac

Sounds like an update by AndroidCat · 2003-01-02 01:49 · Score: 3, Funny

of the running gag in Real Genius which ends with an empty classroom and the teacher's tape recorder talking to the students' tape recorders.

--
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

On the other hand by dachshund · 2003-01-02 01:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

If I'm making no noise, and have an easy grasp of the course material, who says I have to sit there or even take notes unless the class requires participation? I've had a disdain for professors who either require attendance and/or "undevided attention" when I know the course material or no participation in class ins necessary.

As a former student, soon to be teaching, I'm torn on this one. The difference between my best and my worst classes has often been student engagement. When half the class is zoning out, I find it that much harder to be interested in the material. When everyone around me is bright-eyed and bushy-tailed (whether it be because the material is interesting, or because they know their performance depends on their absorbing the material), the attitude is contagious. In-class teaching is valuable, and very often provides more than any textbook. And for god's sake, you didn't pay $n,000 dollars to get the same education you could get from a video-correspondance course.

I wish more professors moved from dry lecturing to a slightly more socratic class style. In the absence of that, they might at least making the material important enough that you can't afford to miss it (ie, not a re-hash of the textbook chapter.) At very least, it's not unreasonable to make attendance non-mandatory and demand that the people who don't want to be there go check their email somewhere else.

Re:On the other hand by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2003-01-02 02:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well, yes, and that's the answer. Generations of students have zoned out in classes with boring teachers; it's just that now it's more obvious that they're zoning out because they're working on electronic devices instead of just daydreaming. A good professor, with an interesting speaking style, who adds a depth of understanding to the course material that students can't get by just reading the textbook, is a lot less likely to have problems with this. I'd be very interested to see student evaluation results on the professors who are kicking up the most fuss ... Like the NYT article says, " The screens provide a silent commentary on the teacher's attention-grabbing skills."

Now, granted, there will inevitably be students who are too easily distracted -- "Oooh, shiny!" -- to pay attention even to good profs. You know what? Screw 'em? The rest of the class, both students and professor, will know who those people are, and work around them. In the rare cases where those people are geniuses who just get the material without paying attention in class, well, good for them. In the much more common case where they're goof-offs, well, their grades will show that at end of term.

--
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Re:On the other hand by Daniel+Dvorkin · 2003-01-02 05:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

I don't quite buy that analogy. The hypothetical porn movie playing in the front of the room isn't under the control of the individual student. (More realistically -- I've been in plenty of classes where there was something noisy going on outside the window, and yes, that makes it damn hard to concentrate even if you want to.) If you're doing something distracting on your own laptop while sitting in a lecture you really should be paying attention to, that's your problem; if the lecture is so boring that it's not worth paying attention to, hey, do all the IM'ing and online gaming and e-mailing and Web-surfing you want.

I'm a bit of an elitist about the distraction problem, I guess. I started grad school when my marriage was in the final stage of falling apart -- and buddy, there ain't no Wi-Fi connection in the world that's as distracting as that. And I still pulled straight A's. So, to those who can't concentrate because they really feel the need to go a few more rounds of Quake, I say: grow the fuck up. It helps when Mommy and Daddy aren't paying your way, of course ...

--
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.

The Scourge of Daydreaming by reallocate · 2003-01-02 01:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

This is this week's version of staring out of the the windows.

But...

1. Students ought not to be able to pass unless they pay attention in class.

2. Teachers ought to say something not available elsewhere.

--
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"

Re:Maybe if teachers worked with technology instea by extra88 · 2003-01-02 01:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

What a stupid idea, a teacher using IM *in class.* They're in the same room, they should talk! I can concoct scenarios in which that's not stupid but they almost never happen in real life.

You really aren't asking professors to be interesting, you are asking them to be entertaining, more entertaining than what students can find on a 'net connection. That almost never happens and isn't really a plausible goal anyway.

Even if the students are paying for school themselves, they're not buying the right to be rude, to the teacher or to their fellow students. Students can't properly judge whether a lecture is a waste of their time while it's going on, only when the course is over or maybe after their next assignment.

There are certainly many people who do not teach well, especially in a "sage on the stage" setting, and schools could use less of that format but that's no excuse for being so disrespectful and a distraction to your classmates.

Battery life by Bazman · 2003-01-02 01:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

We've considered working with wireless access technology in lectures for our students. The problem - battery life. Friends tell me that when you've got a wireless card talking away you might get an hour or so of battery life. Someone coming to a lecture with a half-charged battery is going to be in trouble when asked to download the homework questions at the end...

The solution? Well, why not put power sockets in the desks? So much for wire-less. Might as well put network sockets in as well and give the kiddies 10Mb each instead of sharing an AP or two.

Baz

So professors get paid just to show up by HanzoSan · 2003-01-02 01:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why the hell do we need professors then? If they are paid just to show up and force you to look at them, what exactly is it that they do if they dont give good lectures?

Hard work is one thing, but we are PAYING them, they arent free, they arent giving up anything here, we pay them to do what we want them to do, and thats give an exciting lecture.

I dont think you'll find alot of college students who agree with your opinion that lectures should be boring and dull, people want their moneys worth.

All courses can be entertaining to the majority of the people if the courses are interactive and engaging.

You want to make a boring course like C programming fun? Find someone who can speak REALLY well, not someone from india with an accent.
Find someone who can communicate the basics of programming but in a unique way, complete with jokes, and very detailed explainations including visual.

The good lectures usually arent 100 percent focused strictly on that topic, they drift off alittle bit but the lecturer makes sure to get the point across, students get to talk and ask questions, talk about personal things, so that it feels more like group discussion instead of just blah blah blah blah where students just sit and listen.

--
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac

porn gazing by MacAndrew · 2003-01-02 02:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

On a funny side note one guy in one of my classes WAS looking up pr0n while in class, all the people behind him were wide-eyed looking at it... that's how he got busted.

A rare example of legitimate social Darwinism. :)

A manager at a major newspaper (I knew the general counsel) got canned for watching porn at work -- in his glass office. To me, it would have been perfectly fair to fire him for being an idiot. :) Had they retained him, the paper could have been liable to other employees for condoning a hostile atmosphere, but I hope remedies short of termination were properly considered. Again, we can surmise he was an idiot.

Degree Vs Education by drcrja · 2003-01-02 02:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

From my experience there are two types of students. (1) Those who want a degree and (2) those who want an education.

Usually, those who want an education are those who are paying attention in class.

Re:just block extranet access? by extra88 · 2003-01-02 02:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

That's not a terrible idea but then some students set up open proxies to surf through and become not just classroom distractions but security and spam risks as well.

Very few college students are capable of determining whether a lecture is worthwhile or not.

Re:So whats the role of the professor that you pay by Kombat · 2003-01-02 02:04 · Score: 4, Informative

Profs are not there to spoonfeed you. The real world doesn't spoon feed you. They are there to offer up the info on a silver platter, but you still must make the effort to reach out and grab it.

Colleges and universities don't owe you an education. They owe you access to information in a format optimal for learning. You still must actually do something to get it.

Virtually all of the info you'd learn in university is available in libraries and on the internet. So why then do companies still prefer people with little pieces of paper? Because actions speak louder than words. Any basement-dwelling sociopathic geek can SAY they could learn how to calculate the Big O of various fibonnacci algorithms, but the paper proves that this person actually did learn what he was asked to learn. And that demonstrates that he could learn virtually anything else you ask him do. He's already demonstrated that he's a do-er, a go-getter. He's the one who actually participated in classes and made the effort to really understand the course material.

And that doesn't just mean paying attention in class - that means actually putting in effort outside of the classroom.

--
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.

Well at my school... by Tevye · 2003-01-02 02:08 · Score: 3, Informative

Well at my school (RPI) we've got a similar setup, and in many of my classes I see lots of students on their laptops during class. It doesn't really matter that there's no real reason they'd need it for the class, they've still got it out. What I've seen on people's screens includes:

supplementary material to the lecture (some reference PDF of quick notes, very handy if you forget some bit of C code, et al.),

the lecture notes themselves (usually power point, sometimes PDF or HTML),

work being done (it's nice to be able to write your code while the stuff is still fresh in your mind),

Slashdot (imagine that)

BattleTech armor guidelines (I guess it was more interesting than NP completeness)

These are among other things. I do think it's nice to have instance reference, and to be able to do homework during class if a lecture isn't particularly interesting or engaging.

That having been said, I don't bring a laptop. I don't find that any of those things need to be done during class, and that I can live without them until lectures and labs are done for the day. Not just that, but laptops can get a bit heavy after carrying the between a few classes. At least, in addition to other notebooks and texts.

I might add that I don't take notes on my laptop either. I tried a few times, and while maybe some of you have had a different experience, I find taking notes on a laptop is very limiting. I draw lots of little diagrams and figures in my notes which is difficult to do quickly in most text editors.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for laptops and wireless devices. Since we all are required to have laptops, labs are much cheaper. Rather than lots of desktop machines in a dedicated room, a few tables and chairs with CAT5 can be a fully functioning lab. This has its own problems (IM, Email, etc) but the room can be a small lecture room, or non-computer based class when the computer lab is done. This also worked in my high school, where laptops were required as well. Even for non-computer classes (e.g. English Lit) this had advantages, like being able to read free texts online without needing any paper copies, etc. It's a nice convenience.

With wireless all of this becomes even easier, and any room is a connected room. No longer is the CAT5 needed, or the desktop machine. It's a great advance in convenience.

Even after all that, I still try to take my computer labs in the actual labs with big desktop machines or terminals; I like the big screens and full keyboards and looking slightly up to the monitor rather than down. I still don't bring my laptop to class because I can take notes just fine on paper, if not better, and most things I'd need a computer for can wait until I'm done with class.

--
We're on a mission from God.

Big Boys Rulz in effect by Marcus+Erroneous · 2003-01-02 02:10 · Score: 5, Interesting

As mentioned previously, it's college, not high school. If they don't want to pay attention, they don't have to as long as they accept responsibility for their actions and aren't interfering with the class. It's on them to pass the class and/or participate as required.
What about the "cattle call" classes that everyone has to take and even the instructor doesn't want to be there? My son's intro to C++ class was like that and he surfed the web while in that class. And did just fine in it. When my daughter had taken the same class the year before, she had made similar comments about the class. The instructor was bored and wanted to be teaching more advanced Unix courses but had to teach the intro course. She was not helpful to the students that tried to get her help. My daughter also did fine in the class, but she, like her brother had already taken an introductory C++ programming course in high school.
One of my instructors teaches his MIS course from Powerpoint slides that he just reads. Although capable of truly inspired teaching when he wanted to, he usually didn't (at least at the undergrad level. Ask me next year when I have to take him again post grad). He made attendance part of his grading above and beyond the university's policy of no more than 4 missed classes. Many times I sat in the back of his class and read my latest copy of Linux Journal or articles on my Palm. All of his class material was available on Blackboard before class. After 20+ years, I think he's bored too. Most of the class seemed to be only interested in achieving the minimum necessary to pass the course. Uninspired teaching, uninspired class, rote reading of slides; as they say, "Where's my motivation"?
The better professors won't have to worry. They'll hold the students attention and not worry about those that insist on not paying attention. Most of those students that don't pay attention are either tourists anyway or being held back by uninspired curriculum or professors. If TAs are teaching and can't hold the class, they shouldn't be teaching. That's not what I've been paying for. From the article it appears to be a number of issues are involved (as usual). WiFi is still new enough on campus that both faculty and students are still working out the roles of themselves and the technology. The implementation of any new technology is a bumpy road. I think that what this article really highlights.

--
You must be the change you wish to see in the world - Ghandi

Hwo do you know it's interesting? by DrSkwid · 2003-01-02 02:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

When the professeur was interesting then I listened.

So while sleeping you multi-tasking brain was able to wake you up when the prof got interesting?

wtg.

--
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter

Re:The teacher passes responsiblity to student by Anonymous Coward · 2003-01-02 02:28 · Score: 5, Insightful

BZZZZZZTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!

WRONG!!!!

Care to try again? The classroom environment requires the participation of BOTH the instuctor and the student. Additionally, the onus to aggressively pursue a quality learning envrionment lies more with the student. The best teacher in the world can't teach a student who actively resists, but a dedicated student can (and often WILL) suceed in learning a great deal despite instructors of a lower caliber. This is exemplefied in Mark Twain's famous quote: "I never let schooling interfere with my education."

---
Fighting ignorance and apathy since 1977

Professor Glenn Reynolds weighs in ... by HealYourChurchWebSit · 2003-01-02 02:35 · Score: 4, Interesting

Glenn Reynolds, author of the popular InstaPundit blog and a professor of law at the U. of TN offers this observation "I also tend to wander around the room a lot ..., which may discourage some of that behavior. And I tend to call on the students who don't seem engaged. But I don't make any particular effort to ensure that students aren't surfing or IM-ing or whatever. They're grownups. If they're willing to risk their grades, and to look dumb when they're called on, well, I'm willing for them to do that too."

Basically the way I read it, is if a professor is engaged in teaching his/her class, then he/she isn't going to have a problem keeping the students engaged as well.

--
--- have you healed your church website?

There's the good teachers, and the bad ones. by oneiros27 · 2003-01-02 02:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

First off, I always attended classes, whenever possible, as it's the teacher who writes the test, not the book -- If the teacher says something 4 times, even if the book only mentioned it once, you better right it down, because odds are, it's going to be on the test.

That being said, I slept in class. I don't know what it is about classes, but unless the teacher made it interesting, I couldn't stay awake. There was only one class that I did particularly poorly on [not an A or B] in college -- Fluid Dynamics [mind you, I got an A the semester before in Hydraulics, which I had to get the pre-req of Fluid Dynamics waved for].

I feel strongly that it had to do with the teaching style -- the teacher wouldn't even let you take notes in his class, because 'if you were writing, you weren't listening, and if you're not listening, you're not learning'. To make matters worse, I found the teacher to be particularly boring. He read from the book. That was the class -- him reading from the book, putting a few problems up on the overhead, and you sitting there, bored out of your skull. [Oh, and he wrote the book, too, so it's not like he added stuff that wasn't in the book, or could read the book for a slightly different explaination].

Now, I did my best to not be a distraction for people in class. Although I had a Richochet modem, I didn't make a feature out of the fact that I wasn't paying attention to the class. I took an Oracle DBA certificate program last year, and there were three people sitting in the second row, who kept looking at web pages, talking to each other, taking cell phone calls while the teacher was talking, etc.

I don't believe that you need absolute undivided attention. [ie, if you got the concept right off, and the teacher's explaining it to a few people who needed some clarification, okay, I'd glance over at my screen], but the teacher should be your primary focus for the class, and if you become a distraction, I think you should be removed from the class so you don't impact other people's education.

[Oh -- and in the course last summer -- those same three people installed AIM, and were using they joys of networking to cheat on tests... one more strike against technology in the classroom].

Personally, I find that I pay the most attention in class when I can understand how the material affects me. Of course, everyone has different experience, and finding how to make the material relate to each of the students can be a difficult task. [I view the 'meet the students' first day one of the most important days of class... especially if the teacher asks what you're expecting to get out of the class]

--
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.

Guess what by antis0c · 2003-01-02 02:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is college. The student is paying for it. If he wants to fuck off and browse the web instead of listening to lectures and taking notes, fine. As long as he's not distracting other students, let him waste his money. He'll only have to pay again to retake the class he failed.

--

..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'

Re:Maybe if teachers worked with technology instea by stephenbooth · 2003-01-02 02:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

That is, part at least, of the point! As an adult (and yeah college students should be considered adults, heck HS Seniors deserve at least some degree of adult treatment) I am responsible for getting the most out of my educational experience at college. If I believe that the best use of my time is not attending a particular lecture and am prepared to justify that then it should be my decision.

At 18 a US college student has a minimum of 12 years of experience of studying, a UK student 14 years. If the primary and secondary educators have done a good enough job then the student should be able to make reasonable decisions as to if they need to attend lectures. I don't see it as the lecturers job to police attendance to sessions where the student could make up the work on their own time. It might be required to attend lab sessions and tutorials, sessions where practical skills must be demonstrated or where progress is checked, but lecturers need to realize that their prefered style of lecture may not be the best method of learning for all their students.

There's an old joke about lectures being the transfer of information from the lecturer's notes to the student's notes without lingering in the brains of either. Unfortunately many lecturers, and students, see that as the truth or even a requirement.

If I'm signed on a course because it is a requirement but it's for something I already can do then why should I be made to attend lectures telling me what I already know. As part of an electronics programme I was doing I had to do a course in Pascal programming. Assessment was based on a single programming assignment that had to be completed by 3 weeks after the end of the 10 week course. At the end of the first session I asked what the assignment was (it was to write a program to perform polynomial arithmatic) and by the start of the second I handed in the completed program with fully documented source code and printouts of test series performed. I already knew more about Pascal than I would ever learn on that course and I could look up what I needed to know about Polynomials (I'd never even heard the term before that assignment, and weren't covered on the course anyhow) so I didn't need to attend the course.

Failing a student for non-attendance of lectures is pure abuse of power.

Stephen

--
"Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall

whitelist? by BigBir3d · 2003-01-02 03:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

Why not just have a whitelist of allowed IP's to access? It is not dificult to block access to certain ports also...

Enough "Connection Refused" pages accompanied with loud embarrassing noises will probably cause students to look for other forms of entertainment, maybe even the prof?!

Re:Young Whippersnappers by AppyPappy · 2003-01-02 03:07 · Score: 3, Funny

Calculators? We used to DREAM of calculators. Try figuring Pi using piles of small stones.

The clicking is disturbing. But it is quieter than the snoring. There's nothing worse than trying to hear a lecture while the guy behind you makes a noise that sounds like a washer in spin cycle being flung down a flight of steps.

We used to sneak beer into Real Estate Class (Thurs at 6PM) in McDonald's cups. That made class much mo betta.

--

If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem

As a Prof on a Wi-Fi campus by ancarett · 2003-01-02 03:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

I have to say that rumours of our rage and angst are greatly exaggerated. I'd like to see more of my students with Wi-Fi equipped computers attending classes and using their equipment. I wish that more of our classrooms were equipped with computers and projectors for the professors, since I've integrated technology into my courses. It's wonderful when students can download files as you refer to them, bookmark websites you recommend during class or check out additional resources to bring more fuel to their comments in discussion.

My rules are few: Sound alerts must be turned off during class (especially those annoying IM moo noises) and Wi-Fi network access must be disabled during tests and examinations (I don't want my students surfing the net for answers when they should be writing). If you can abide by those rules (and the general campus rules for Wi-Fi access) you're welcome to compute during my class!

--
ancarett, historian and zombie gamer

Re: [not] Exactly, by Blkdeath · 2003-01-02 03:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

And if the student is not paying enough attention to the professor to actually give an honest, fair evaluation, what then?

One of the professors at the college I attended was probably the best lecturer I've ever had the pleasure of seeing. (And yes, he had a fairly distinct Italian accent. If you paid attention, however, you could understand what he was saying - he was kind enough to enunciate industry terminology) However, he had post-secondary expectations of the students who had secondary school expectations of the course. Therefore he wound up with dozens of complaints and really poor reviews. Throughout the course he gave lectures including many things that weren't in the assigned textbook or in the handout materials - kind of extra digressions of the course material. Much of it helped to learn the materikal better, some of it was simply an extra interesting fact or two that we could take away with us. Much of it, however, was to be on the final exam. See, he'd already noticed a rather distinct pattern of students who were away from most every class.

Early in the course, he handed out a 30-50 page report, due in about three months, and from then on the students decided, en masse, to unilaterally hate and ignore said teacher. As a result, he was forced to lower the bar to ridiculous levels when marking these assignments; to the point where I, who had handed in a large, well researched, well complied paper covering all the outlined materials, nicely presented in a folder, felt slighted. Granted, I got an A+ on the paper - but the guy who handed in a four page, double spaced, stapled, wide margin paper with (of all things) pictures got an A.

The unfortunate aspect of colleges and universities is the fact that they are, by and large, a business. Their clients are their students; without whom they could not keep their doors open. I entered college with the rather naive impression that college would be somehow better than high school because, hey, people are paying thousands of dollars to be here so they have to care, right? As it turns out, I couldn't have been more wrong. College students seemed to be some of the most spoiled, apathetic brats I've had the displeasure of being associated with. What made matters worse was the fact that so many of them had cars, not to mention that the majority were 'of age' to drink and could skip class in favour of the campus bar.

I'm of the opinion that college should have a pre-requisite that students do sometghing on their own for a period of one-two years such as work a full-time job, rent their own appartment and manage bills; something to aquaint themselves with the real world before they get to sit in padded, swivellling chairs and ignore the poor schmuch trying to instill knowledge in them.

To get topical; wireless or no wireless, students will likely always ignore the teacher to some extent. The "Back Row" students will always find distractions; even if they have to bring a switch/hub and some ethernet cables and play games against one-another, they'll do it. Our primary lab was wired with a 2:1 ratio of ethernet ports to computers, therefore allowing every student to also bring a laptop with them (which was, for various reasons, against policy, but I digress). To get around the problem of students playing games, chatting on ${MESSENGER}, surfing the web - many teachers would instruct the students to close all laptops and turn off all monitors. There were few rare exceptions for the students who actually took lecture notes on their computers, but those were typically sitting at or near the front and were few and far between.

Perhaps these instructors could simply ask the disruptive students who obviously aren't paying attention why they're there? After all, if they just want to use the network and play games / horse around - couldn't they do that in the school's lounge, student centre, cafeteria, etc..? If they continue to not pay attention, they could be asked to leave, lest they disrupt the remainder of the class. Sure, they have a right to be there based on the money they've paid - but they don't have the right to disrupt the class for the dozens of others who've also paid thue same amount.

--
BD Phone Home!

Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

Attention & Consideration by sjbe · 2003-01-02 03:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

Several points I'd like to make.

People who aren't going to pay attention, will not do so even without computers to entertain them. They might just stare off into space with no alternatives but taking away computers doesn't mean they are paying attention.

Being in class and doing anything besides participating in class in an appropriate manner is rude to the teacher and distracting your fellow students. The worst are people who come to class and then sleep. If you aren't interested, don't come. Which bring's me to my next point...

Mandatory attendance in a college class is (in general) stupid. There are fairly few non-lab courses where attendance actually matters. If someone prefers to get their material out of a book, let them. If being in class is important to passing the class, the students will figure that out. Teachers should think of class attendance as feedback on the difficulty of the material and the quality of the lecturing.

Conversely, if you (or your parents) are paying for a college education and you do not make every effort to get as much out of it as possible you are an idiot.

Yes, surfing the net is often more interesting than a lecture, but even a boring lecture often has useful information. Even the worst lectures (and I've had some very bad ones) usually contain something worth knowing. You are going to be dealing with boring meetings, boring tasks, and boring people for the rest of your career. You might as well learn how to get the most out of them.

The teacher's job is not to entertain you, it is to teach you. Effective teaching often correlates with being interesting to listen to but you can learn without being entertained.

Finally, don't be so arrogant and assume you know what is important about a subject better than the teacher. There is usually a reason the teacher is lecturing on the material they choose. They aren't doing it just to annoy you.

Hmmm.... by blankmange · 2003-01-02 03:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

As a both a student (undergrad & master's) and an instructor (technical), I can agree with the some of the points made here, but here is the crux:

As a student, I made the classes I felt necessary and skipped the ones I felt worthless. I was mature enough to understand that if I goofed, my GPA suffered. No problems, however, as I graduated in the top quarter of my class, both under & post graduate. As an instructor, it can be very frustrating if you have students who are actively not participating in the class, but I also understand that if I don't have the material to make the class interesting, there is little I can do to keep their attention. My only concern is whether or not the students who are choosing to pay attention & participate are not affected by these (admittedly few) other students........

--
...we are from the government - we are here to help...

Re:The teacher passes responsiblity to student by StillNeedMoreCoffee · 2003-01-02 03:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well as a teacher, Thats true, it is up to the instructor to make the information at least digestible. I have two counter views however.

The classroom is a society and as such the student has a responsibilty to allow other students the opportunity to be interested, not distracted and get the benefit of the lecture. If anyone is slamming away at a laptop in class it is a distraction, or if they have a CD player going with headphones that can be heard 10 feet away, that is a distraction. If that is the case then assuming attendence is not mandetory that student should behave or not show.

The second observation I have is that some but not all students that seem to feel that they know the material, don't. You point about knowing C is a good example. No self respecting college level course teaches just C, or C++ or whatever. What is being taught is programming, or data structures or Object Oriented Paradigm, or some cluster of ideas, but never just a language. As I have observed in my day job, knowing a language has little to do with intellegent approaches to structuring and solving problems in way that is efficient, maintainable and re-usable. These are the other things that are taught along with say a language being taught.

If you get to a place where you think that it is not worth listening to someone teaching on your subject then you have stopped learning. Or better yet you can start that next process of learning by comparing what you hear with that you know and make those critical observations about how it should have been done. Much of my work has been just that, reverse engineering other peoples ideas about how something should have been done.

Opportunities are now, not later. Find the fault line to split the diamond in one blow.

Dear Profs: by liquidsin · 2003-01-02 03:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

Maybe if you were busying yourself with working with the students who *are* interested in your lecture, you wouldn't be so concerned with those who aren't. Maybe if you talked *with* your students instead of *at* them, and had an actual conversation instead of just reading the material straight from the text, you might find that some of the students who were surfing slashdot have perked up their ears and are now paying attention. Try it sometime.

--
do not read this line twice.

Mesh networks! by certron · 2003-01-02 04:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

If the teacher unplugs the access point, the wireless-enabled devices could just go ad-hoc or set up a mesh network and, through that, connect to the access point in the next room (hopefully). :-)

It is still the responsibility of the student to learn the material, if they desire to pass the course in any reasonable fashion. The teacher doesn't *have* to give interesting lectures, but it is generally appreciated.

--

fair.org counterpunch.com truthout.com indymedia.org salon.com
eff.org guerrilla.net debian.org gentoo.org

Demand attention? by kfg · 2003-01-02 04:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

Why the hell would I demand a students attention?

It's the student who has voluntarily undertaken to pay huge gobs of money and invest huge gobs of their time to attend college.It was the student who voluntarily chose to sign up for my class. It was the student who chose to *show up* for class. I didn't leap out of my office, drive halfway across the country ( or the world), hold a gun to their head and insist they take my class.Hell, once they've signed up I don't even insist they attend.

This isn't high school I think some of you have a hard time wrapping your heads around that one.If you don't wish to participate, stay home.It's that simple.

Hell, you can even get an A in some of my classes without ever attending if the work you hand in deserves it.

What I don't understand is if you would really rather be surfing the web or playing Quake why you don't just stay in your room and do it? Wouldn't we both be more comfortable that way?

KFG

For myself, as a student... by FroBugg · 2003-01-02 04:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

I picked up a laptop over the summer. Small little Vaio. I don't get wireless access in most of my classrooms, but I do in some and in many places I can go between classes. I use my laptop for all my note-taking in class, even if I don't have internet access at the time.

I believe that if I hadn't had this laptop with me, I wouldn't have gone at all. For three straight semesters I ended up dropping all my classes out of a sort of lethargy and unwillingness to make the commute to school. This gives some added value to being there, and as a consequence I don't mind as much going to class.

But, mom! I don't wanna learn! by BFaucet · 2003-01-02 04:36 · Score: 3, Interesting

Many people learn for the wrong reasons. I think learning should be enjoyable regardless of the material.

I have a horrible memory and history was my worst subject in highschool and college. Does this mean I slept through all of my history classes? Believe it or not, no. I enjoyed many of my history teacher's lessons. I enjoyed listening and (more importantly) participating in the lecture. I still did poorly on many of the exams, but I was attentive in class and I really did learn a lot (in many cases, more than my higher-ranked peers.)

I think there is a "wrong" view of education by students. Many go to college so they can put "whatever degree in blahdittyblah" on their resumes. This means they will work only as hard as they need to in order to get that on their resumes. While an impressive resume is important. An education should be why people go to college, not an impressive resume.

I think this problem stems from how people are raised. In elementary/middle/highschool, people are rewarded for getting good marks on tests regardless on how they got that mark. If it was cramming the night before, or truly getting an understanding of the subject, they get the same mark, same reward. Most people (at least americans) tend to opt for the one that'll give them the most TV watching time (cramming the night before.) I hate to blame the parents (again) and TV (again) but I think parents shouldn't expose their young (0-6 year old) kids to much mainstream TV. Sure, let them watch PBS or even The Discovery Channel, but the networks that show nothing but colorful pictures with lots of noise should be used with extreme caution. Read to kids, encourage them to ask questions. Even more importantly, show them where to find answers and teach them how to think things through before asking questions.

Showing kids how to learn and use logic at an extremely young age (while their minds are still developing) will encourage them to enjoy learning and will get them to go to school to learn and not just to get a paper with a mark on it. Besides, how much respect does a frat boy that managed to memorize some tests answers and forget them right after the exam get when they go into the real world? Oh right... they get elected for presidency.

--
-Derick

Re:Attention span by HanzoSan · 2003-01-02 04:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

oh wow you must know so much about giving lectures, you TEACH ANIMATION, I'm sure in your animation class you have to teach alot of syntax right?

Face it, in what you teach it doesnt really matter what you say or how bad your accent is, you teach animation, you dont need to explain in detail certain terms.

Lets give a lesson on C in bad english and see how much you can learn.

#inkluude

ent main()
{
printf("hellow world");
retuurn zero;
}

Yeah thats how you write C code in flawed syntax. Should I teach students that this is really how to write C?

People who cannot speak should not give speeches just like people who cannot read and write should not make it through grade school, I dont care if you are Mike Tyson or George Bush, if you cannot speak, and you cannot read and write you have no business being on TV talking to millions of people giving speeches on national security, or trying to use big words at press confrences that you cant say right.

Bush gets on TV and embarrasses our country with some of his speeches, I'm sure iraqis look at him and pronouce words better than he does, This isnt about race, its about ability.

Tony Blair can get on TV and give a speech and its proper, George Bush gets on TV and gives speeches that a 5th grade could have wrote.

"These evil terrarists" and "Them bad guys" and "We must stop dem from causin terra on our peoples"

I'm supposed to listen to garbage like this?
I respect him only because his president, but i dont like his speeches and I think he should let the vice President or Collin Powell talk for him.

I'm sorry but if you think I'm a racist because I dont like people with accents giving speeches I cant understand, perhaps you also believe that people who dont learn to read and write in school are victims of racism too? yeah blame race on everything.

--
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac

I can attest to the distraction by ethank · 2003-01-02 04:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

When I was finishing my undergraduate degree at UC San Diego, the campus was not yet fully wi-fi-ed. I was bored out of my mind because I had put off my GE's until the last possible time I could take them.

The only thing that got me through it was my Ricochet connection in the class room. However I can say that it did distract me to such an extent in class that my grades suffered because of it. I actually ended up not passing one of the classes.

That being said I'm involved in wi-fi-ing the art department at the university I'm currently at for graduate school.

While it is true that teaching has to adapt to wi-fi usage, I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing to force it to adapt. Just like any disruptive technology, the repurcusions outside its immediate sphere usually leads to a balancing effect upon other actants in the network it disrupts.

So basically: everything should adapt to pervasive connectivity, whether it likes it or not.

The Two-Headed Beast of SCIENCE!! by Crash+Culligan · 2003-01-02 05:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's been mentioned enough times on this topic, but it bears repeating: technology has both good and bad points. Furthermore, given the extensive use of technology, a solution may exist which nobody's thought of yet.

Good point: Wireless networking allows students ways to remotely research class topics outside the classroom. Yes they could go to the library before, or stay in their dorm rooms and look this stuff up, but the new technology allows that work to fit more neatly into campus life. Result: More opportunity to study.

Bad point: Wireless networking allows students ways to slack off inside the classroom. Yeah, attention deficiency is nothing new in the classroom, but considering the things the modern laptop can do, its presence can be an awful temptation to those already inclined to play around. Result: More opportunity to ignore the teacher.

Both are valid, and to take one side is to trivialize the other.

As another aside, there's been some talk of whose fault it is students get bad grades. It's the teacher's responsibility to present the course's subject matter in a reasonable, easy-to-follow fashion. It's not his responsibility to spoon-feed the student a passing grade, no matter how undeserved.

Rule of thumb: if one student does poorly in a class, odds are it's the student's fault. If almoast everyone does poorly in a class, odds are it's the teacher's fault.

--
You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.

Profs should get in the game... by V4L1S · 2003-01-02 05:18 · Score: 4, Interesting

... they could run something like Driftnet and possibly shame kids away from more blatant wastes of class time... or into getting some practical know-how with security.

Give the kids a class-topic wiki/blog and let the computers become a tool for student-student, student-grad.assistant, and student-prof communication. The prof could bring a grad.assistant to each class and have him/her answer questions that students have about the lecture in near-realtime as they appear on the wiki/blog. Give shy students a way to ask questions. Bonus points for students that answer each other's questions before the grad.assistant.

The profs are lagging behind the students. The students have rushed forward in a somewhat haphazzard fashion, but think of it as a case of spitballs and doodles. One doesn't end spitballs by taking away all paper or doodles by taking away all writing impliments. The best thing to do is to give the students something better to do with the tools. Some virtues that will draw their attention better than the available vices.

--
"DRM is a mandatory buggy whip in every car." MadAhab (40080)

Once upon a time. . . by kfg · 2003-01-02 06:11 · Score: 3, Funny

a new freshman was trying to find his way about the campus. Seeing a man who looked like he knew the general lay of the land the freshman approached him and asked, " Excuse me, but could tell me where the library's at?"

At this the tweed jacketed elder stiffened his back, lowered his chin, looked down his nose and said, "Young man, this is an institute of higher learning.*Here* we do not end our sentences with prepositions."

"Oh, I'm sorry," responded the freshman, " Can you please tell me where the library's at, Asshole."

KFG

Profs are there to teach you. by theLOUDroom · 2003-01-02 09:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

First off: (The on-topic stuff)
Not every class is a super-imortant, don't know it already class.
Example: I took ECON101, attended 5 lectures the entire semester and recieved an A. How did I do it? I did the required work and already understood the material. Why was I in the class?...to statisfy degree requirements. Luckily, they didn't take attendance, so I didn't have to go sit through lectures about this I already understood.

That's right, there are classes that you are actually required to take, even if you already know the material.

Not paying attention in class doesn't necessarily mean you're lost. Sometimes those kids who aren't paying attention, already know the material, and are just there becuase the prof. likes to give quizzes.

Doesn't anyone remember how boring it is to sit through someone drone on about something you already understand? (And I do mean drone, possibly with an unintelligble accent.) One of my favorite things about college is that if a lecture sucks, I can usually get up and leave. I can't always do that though, some classes actually require attendance, even when the lectures are totally passive experiences.

The important thing is not suffering through lousy lectures. The important thing is actually understanding the course material. That's why businesses want a degree: It shows that you've taken tests and passed them. (Or completed projects successfully.)

Second:
I really hate the "spoonfeeding" analogy. It's really a load of BS. I haven't heard that crap since HS. Teachers are there to teach you, not to hand you a book and say "I'm not going to spoonfeed you." I can read a book by my damnself. I do expect the prof. to "spoonfeed" me, as in, break the information into reasonable sized chunks and deliver it to me (a.k.a. lectures). If I have a question, I expect to be given an answer, not to have to suffer through analogies that compare me to an infant. Why do you think I'm paying to go to school? If someone thinks they're too important to answer questions, they shouldn't be involed in teaching. Provided the person isn't asking for test answers, there really isn't much of an excuse not to answer someone's question. Suffering is not equivalent to learing. Teachers should just answer questions, and if they think it was something the student should have been able to figure out on their own, the can ask the student a question about it. This way, they answer the student's question (as opposed to insulting them) and still get to make them think.

--
Life is too short to proofread.

72 of 454 comments (clear)