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AMI Introduces 'Trusted Computing' BIOS

An anonymous reader writes "American Megatrends announced its 'trusted computing' Palladium BIOS on Jan 6. It seems that the encrypted BIOS' integrity will be verified by a special chip or flash ROM, and will in turn verify the 'authenticity, integrity and privacy' of the boot loader and the operating system. Does that mean such machines may refuse to boot any other non-'trusted' OS? After all, the list of supporting corporations include AMD, Intel, IBM, and HP, of whom we heard quite favourable statements about Linux (just for example -- *BSDs will be equally affected) so far."

92 of 617 comments (clear)

  1. War on terror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    This will go a long way towards the war on terror. Terrorists wont be able to install and use unauthorized OS's. This could potentially save thousands of lives.

    1. Re:War on terror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just like it is so difficult to buy a PC from a major vendor that does not already have Windows, they will also eventually try to make it impossible to buy one that does not have DRM on it which only allows you to run a policed DRM OS, read: Microsoft Windows.

      Fight this all the way. Intel didn't get it when they put the ID on their chips until we decided not to buy it. In the same vein, AMD won't get it that we don't want DRM until we (unfortunately, since I actually like them) tell them to go to hell.

    2. Re:War on terror by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 4, Offtopic

      I think the slashdot moderators misunderstand the mechanics of slashdot meme creation. It all starts out with some inane, yet generally applicable, statement getting modded up to 5. It's read by tens thousands of slashdoters who imprint the idea on their psyche. From then on, there is usually at least one, but possibly several, posters who feel the need to update the comment for each new article--really the comment has gone beyond a simple joke for these poor souls, it becomes almost a mystical experience each time they post. I imagine it's almost like they are communing with their god. Simply the way the brain works. Christianity and Islam and Judaism all started out the same way. You start off with some nut with an seemingly inexplicable ability to influence large groups of people to do idiotic things, and suddenly you have a beowulf cluster of hot grits getting poured all over a dead BSD system. In soviet Russia, of course, it's the other way around.

      What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that memes are powerful things. So use your mod points for interesting and thought provoking posts relevant to the subject at hand. You don't have to mod a lot of stuff down, but show some restraint in modding junk up.

      I mean, do we really want the second coming to occur during in some long post about Natalie Portman and the basalt content of her nude body?

    3. Re:War on terror by ReelOddeeo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just like it is so difficult to buy a PC from a major vendor that does not already have Windows, they will also eventually try to make it impossible to buy one that does not have DRM on it which only allows you to run a policed DRM OS, read: Microsoft Windows.

      Given the current number of non-US governments (various South-American, Japan, Germany, UK ?, Malyasia, China, Tiwan, South Korea, Isreal, Pakastian, probably others I've forgotten in the frequent Linux Today announcements) jumping on the open source bandwagon...

      Given the Chinese governments' interest in developing their own microprocessors (Dragon? recently on Slashdot)...

      I don't think that the forces of evil can force every PC everywhere to have DRM.

      As long as some PC's can freely run any software, there will always be ways to defeat DRM. Or said differently, without total control, they control nothing.

      Given that there will always be somebody powerful enough that doesn't want DRM, or at least, wants Free software, the DRM folks will never get total control.

      --

      Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
    4. Re:War on terror by ArsonSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

      sure they can, that is what Billy boy is trying to stop with this new inititive.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    5. Re:War on terror by kien · · Score: 3, Insightful
      As long as some PC's can freely run any software, there will always be ways to defeat DRM. Or said differently, without total control, they control nothing.

      Right on. And even if you live in the US... remember that there are such things as soldering irons and oscilloscopes. Hey, you mastered Linux right? Comparatively speaking, the laws of Ohm and Kirchoff are n00b material. Even an AOL luser could learn! (Ok, that might be stretching things.) :)

      --K.
      --
      Sig: Bad people happen. Try to avoid being one of them.
    6. Re:War on terror by oPless · · Score: 3, Funny
      QUOTE:

      I mean, do we really want the second coming to occur during in some long post about Natalie Portman and the basalt content of her nude body?


      Ohhh, excuse me, while reading that, I just come - twice. - Does that count?
    7. Re:War on terror by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Humanism is the religion of the atheist

      To transform this trolling post into a truthful statement, replace the words, "the" and "the", as follows: "Humanism is a religion of some atheists."

      Thank you.
      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    8. Re:War on terror by geekee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ahh, if you don't want DRM, don't run DRM based software. The hardware only does what the software tells it too do. There is nothing in the atricle claiming the BIOS will refuse to boot non trusted OS software.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
  2. Not this time around... by Kjella · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Does that mean such machines may refuse to boot any other non-'trusted' OS?

    I'm pretty sure it won't. For now it'll just not have a trusted signature, so no access to Palladium-protected content. But I'm pretty sure that's the bait of a bait&switch operation...

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:Not this time around... by briancnorton · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Palladium as I understand it has NO APPLICATION for content protection. It's not a DRM system. It's a security function so that your hardware knows what it's doing. It will provide a level of security between applications, the OS, and hardware. You should never know that it's there.

      --

      People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.

    2. Re:Not this time around... by micromoog · · Score: 5, Insightful
      You should never know that it's there.

      Provided you only use Palladium-approved hardware. And applications. And operating system. And you don't want to make your own software. Or MP3's.

    3. Re:Not this time around... by Tom7 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Uh, then I think you understand. Palladium is designed essentially to prevent you from using debugging hardware or software to circumvent copy-control mechanisms. It is a key ingredient in the enslavement of the media consumer. What do you think it's for, and how do current OS techniques not address that?

    4. Re:Not this time around... by theLOUDroom · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Palladium as I understand it has NO APPLICATION for content protection. It's not a DRM system.

      You clearly don't understand it at all then.
      Ask youself "Why do they need to add special hardware?" Everything you're saying it's for can be done via software.
      The point of Palladium is that you will not longer have "root" access to your own machine. The system is only going to trust "trusted" programs, but there's no way for you to decide if a program is trusted or not, is there? You don't get access to the key, this way the OS can stop you from running a program which copies that DRM-protected music file in the Palladium protected part of your hard disk onto a CDR. It pretty obvious that this system was designed for DRM.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    5. Re:Not this time around... by geekopus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Then again, there's that guy (Lucky Green) that has filed for a patent specifically to stop microsoft from using Palladium for DRM.

      It's so crazy, it just might work......

    6. Re:Not this time around... by theLOUDroom · · Score: 3, Interesting

      First off, there are fundamental flaws with biometric authenticaion systems that can't be solved. For example: Your fingerprints are not secret, you leave them all over the place, nor are they replacable once someone manages to get a copy of them.

      Second, you don't need palladium to do any of those things you want to do as a developer /sysadmin. The only thing palladium gives you, that you couldn't do before is a protected area of the machine that you know/hope the owner of the machine can't access. (And you can only get access to that area if MS likes what you're doing.) Anything else you think palladium gives you either has been or can be implemented without it. Go ahead and give me one other thing that palladium does that can't be implemented purely in software.

      Finally, "trusted computing" does not make business sense. It doesn't make business sense because it doesn't make business sense to be forced to rely on a single vendor for anything. With palladium, it becomes trivial to make software fixes, addons, etc. only work when made by the one company who's OS has control of the palladium hardware. It doesn't make business sense to give up control over your computers.

      Trusted computing is a marketing term and is very misleading. Palladium doesn't make your system hackerproof, protect you from email viruses, or add "accountability".

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    7. Re:Not this time around... by Hobbex · · Score: 3, Insightful


      How many of the recent big viruses have been binary programs? Nearly all the viruses are macros and scripts infecting installed applications (and those are already supposed to be sandboxed). Nearly all remote cracks are by buffer overflows which means the code runs as if it were part of the attacked application, which presumably is signed. Nearly all computers that are broken into are used only as zombies for DoS attacks - something that requires only normal, installed, user applications.

      Taking away users control of their computers can only make the situation worse - soon, even those of us who normally know how to protect ourselves will be beyond hope.

    8. Re:Not this time around... by visualight · · Score: 3, Informative

      And where did you find this out? Point me somewhere that says this? Read the documentation, dont jump to conclusions.



      Okay, you should of followed your own advice. This is from an interview with John Manferdelli, general manager of the Windows business unit that is building Palladium.



      PressPass: How will Palladium differ from digital rights management (DRM)?

      Manferdelli: First off, Palladium will not require DRM, and DRM will not require Palladium. Palladium is a great complementary technology to the DRM solutions of tomorrow, but the two are separate technologies.



      Also, after reading all of the official MS "documentation" you should read this reaction from the Register.



      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
    9. Re:Not this time around... by vrmlguy · · Score: 3, Informative
      The stated purpose is to prevent malicious code executing in one part of a system from affecting malicious changes in another part.
      You seem to be misunderstanding the meaning of the term "trusted system".
      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
  3. What isnt stated by briancnorton · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you have a palladium processor and palladium motherboard, hard drive whatever, you arent going to be limited to a palladium enabled OS, you just wont be able to use the benefits of a palladium trusted environment. So said microsoft anyhow.

    --

    People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.

    1. Re:What isnt stated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      One of the key benefits of Palladium, of course, being a PC that boots up! People will really embrace Palladium's "booting PC" feature when compared to the "non-booting PC" features of the competition!

    2. Re:What isnt stated by Syphonius · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What benefits? Best I can tell, trusted computing provides me, a consumer, no benefits over what exist today. It does, however, provide many benefits to large corporations and media control companies.

      So 'trusted' here means that the companies can finally trust 'all us thieves' with 'their' media property.

      Explain to me again, why on earth would I want any machine like this as a general computing platform?

    3. Re:What isnt stated by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 5, Informative
      What benefits? Best I can tell, trusted computing provides me, a consumer, no benefits over what exist today

      How about better online games? Consider MMORPGs. To prevent cheating, they have to do various things server-side that would actually make more sense from a resource allocation point of view to do on the client.

      For example, DAoC has to handle stealth on the server, calculating who should be able to see a stealthed character, and only sending that character's positions to clients that should see him, so that people with DAoC's equivalent of ShowEQ won't see them. However, those people can still see people who are hiding behind trees or hills or buildings--it would be too much work for the server to do the visibility calculations for everyone.

      With a trusted client, they could just send the data on everyone in the area, and trust the client to not show what the player is not supposed to see.

      Or how about monster AI? The monsters could be a lot smarter if they could run the AI on the client, instead of on the server.

  4. And how long before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...the first "trusted" bootsector virus appears?

    1. Re:And how long before... by doorbot.com · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But this is exactly the problem... if a virus manages to pass as a trusted program, then Palladium merely reverts back to the system we have today (except as a consumer you have less control over your own property). Viruses can still wreak havoc, etc. Once the trust is broken by one app, the whole system collapses.

  5. No it doesn't. by Kickasso · · Score: 4, Informative

    If it's true to spec, it will load anything. Just not in the trusted mode.

  6. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  7. Not necessarily for the masses by Arcturax · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This could as easily be for military computers as well as the great unwashed. So I don't think we will be seeing these in home PC's just yet.

    Not only that we don't know yet what OS they will work with. So lets not start doomsaying until the first of these are out and there is proof they refuse to run certain operating systems.

    --

    --Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
    1. Re:Not necessarily for the masses by sphealey · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Not only that we don't know yet what OS they will work with. So lets not start doomsaying until the first of these are out and there is proof they refuse to run certain operating systems.
      Well, the problem is that the "embrace and extend" and "stealth networking" marketing techniques use the time when the victim, I mean the consumer and compeititon, is waiting to see what happens to lock everything in place and preempt any other course of action. So that may not be the best approach in this case.

      sPh

    2. Re:Not necessarily for the masses by dpbsmith · · Score: 3, Informative

      Plus, it's always possible that "the first of these" will come out running any OS; then the upgrade that is necessary to correct serious bugs will turn out to have the unadvertised side effect of locking out other OS'es; and only then will people notice that it said that might happen in fine-print legalese twenty pages down in the EULA.

      There's a lot of precedent for this. (Ask anyone who took advantage of the upgrade deal on their REB1100 eBook device, for example). Its predecessor, the Rocket eBook let you download your own content into the device. The REB1100 was only advertised as allowing the download of purchased content, but actually permitted download of personal content too. Then a "stealth" upgrade removed that feature.

  8. Yeah, so I'm offtopic by Chocolate+Teapot · · Score: 5, Funny

    "American Megatrends" appears to be an anagram of "reincarnated smegma". Just felt the urge to share that,

    --
    Modest doubt is called the beacon of the wise. - William Shakespeare
  9. Q: One BIOS only? by 4of12 · · Score: 3

    So, with my limited understanding, I think of this thing running the BIOS through a one-way hash and comparing it to what's written in stone on NVRAM.

    Doesn't this mean that you cannot upgrade the BIOS?

    Or, that any "upgradeability" is tantamount to leaving a door open to unauthorized "upgrades" to the BIOS?

    TIA.

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."
  10. Trusted to do what? by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The original Palladium spec calls for a trusted machine to only allow trusted access by trusted operating systems. This means Palladium-encrypted code won't run except under a Palladium-rated OS. If the OS isn't trusted, then no Palladium-enabled programs can run.

    This will mean that WINE will be useless for many future Windows apps, especially those dealing with multimedia. It also means future versions of Windows will be written specifically to defeat applications like VMware, so as to not violate the security.

    These are bad, though they don't prevent one from booting a non-Palladium-enabled OS and using alternative applications. What I keep worrying about is the TCPA *2.0* specification. The original spec allows an alternative to a "trusted" platform, but future specs may require a PC boot a Palladium-enabled OS -- or none at all.

    1. Re:Trusted to do what? by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 3, Informative

      Palladium and open-source are pretty close to mutually exclusive. One COULD make a trusted *ix distribution, but either (1) the Palladium key would be held only by the distributor, and anyone writing patches would have to run the OS in untrusted mode, or (2) the Palladium key would be publically available -- and therefore no one would write trusted apps for it, for what would be the point? I do not know whether one could generate a working key from out of the blue, either.

    2. Re:Trusted to do what? by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 3, Insightful



      The X-Box is designed like that first class of Palladium chips, and security has been bypassed by placing a mod-chip in the data path of the key access. As I said before, in future implementations the crypto hardware will be inside the CPU chip, so there won't be a line to tap.

      You are correct the key is stored somewhere; but it's not anywhere it can be read. It's kept where a separate crypto processor can use it to validate signatures and decrypt code, but the PC has no access to it. Reading the key would involve physically opening and tapping into the chip, which is a practical impossibility for you or me. Such an effort might be worthwhile if reading the key would result in breaking the entire Palladium system, but as I said, the system is designed to thwart class breaks.

      You picture the processor decrypting code and storing it in main memory, but in fact the decrypted code is only stored locally. Again, on the first implementations, this code might be intercepted while it's on the bus between the crypto chip and the CPU, in the future it'll be impossible.

      As for "tricking the OS into thinking it's trusted"... Nope. The machine won't boot without trusted code, period. The BIOS is signed and trusted. It'll shut down the crypto processor and boot a non-trusted OS (at least in current specs), but from that point no trusted software can run. It will check the signature on a trusted OS and boot that; if the OS is modified, the signature will no longer match, and the OS won't boot.

      TCPA/Palladium is an extremely elegant, hardy, and EVIL system. It worries me greatly.

  11. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  12. Congratulations, AMI by SupahVee · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You've just lost one customer, from this point forward, no matter how difficult it may be for me to find other products, I will not buy ANY hardware that contains a BIOS made made by your company.

    WHile this may not seem like a big deal, I _am_ in the market for a new system, and have a decent budget to do it with.

    --
    "See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
    1. Re:Congratulations, AMI by DickBreath · · Score: 3, Informative

      I trust my BIOS. It's called OpenFirmware, and it's been in every mac since the original iMac.

      Open Firmware predates the iMac. OF was not an iMac innovation.

      Open Firmware has been in Macs since about 1995. The first Mac PowerPC's model 6100, 7100, 8100 used NuBus ran Mac OS 7.1 and did not have Open Firmware. The next round of Macs did away with NuBus in favor of PCI and had Open Firmware -- in 1995. All subsequent Macs (many many models) have had Open Firmware, including the iMac.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
  13. Maybe I am dense... by gosand · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Am I just stupid? How come I don't really see the benefit of this? Sure, the BIOS checks to see that the OS and hardware are "trusted", but what does this really buy you? So it says: OK, we have an official copy of Windows XP installed. Does this mean that the system is now secure? Hardly. What would something like this, even if it worked flawlessly, protect the user from?


    I honestly don't understand the value (or perceived value) in having this.

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

    1. Re:Maybe I am dense... by MrWa · · Score: 5, Insightful
      So it says: OK, we have an official copy of Windows XP installed. Does this mean that the system is now secure? Hardly. What would something like this, even if it worked flawlessly, protect the user from?

      No, you aren't dense...just fooled by the doublespeak that Microsoft and the like use when describing this type of Digital Restriction Mechanisms. You aren't supposed to trust the hardware or software - this system is not being created to protect the user from anything. The intent is to protect developers (of software or media) from the users.

      Think of it as a way for Microsoft to write an OS - however buggy and insecure you like - and, supposedly, have the ability to run programs and display media with the knowledge that it is secure from being manipulated or used by the user in a way that Microsoft does not want.

  14. I hate to say it by jayhawk88 · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...but does this mean *BSD really is dying, and all those trolls have been right all along?

  15. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  16. It will enable you to get DRMed content. by Kickasso · · Score: 5, Informative

    That's it. A remote site can know whether or not you're running a trusted (IOW "unhackable") OS/apps. If you do, they'll send you decryption keys for playback and be reasonably sure you won't intercept them, store them permanently etc.

  17. Trust whom? by bytesmythe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just follow this little (hypothetical) chain of events:

    1) BIOS on new motherboard will only go into "Palladium-mode" if you're booting a "trusted" OS. For the time being, you can still run linux, but it won't have access to any "Palladium" features.

    2) If you're running a "trusted" OS (eg. MS Windows UY [Up Yours]), the OS can hit the 'Net and automatically download and apply updates to itself. At some point, it could quite easily detect the BIOS on your system and apply an update so that...

    3) The BIOS will no longer boot non-trusted systems. Also...

    4) The OS could download a new protocol stack that could render it inoperable with other protocols. An entire new Internet based on the MSOY/BO (Microsoft Ownz You/Bend Over) protocol could spring up almost over night. MS-only network services, online shopping, etc.

    Is any of this likely to happen? I don't know. But it would be possible, and I'm not sure I trust Microsoft not to try it. Even if Open Source doesn't relegate MS to the /dev/null of the computing industry, the OS community is going to need each other to maintain a DRM-free computing zone. Open source, open protocols, open formats, open beer.

    --
    bytesmythe
    Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
    -- Scott Meyer
  18. Re:before eveyone gets all worked up by stratjakt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Jumpers?

    The whole thing will be a BIOS option, just like the P3 serial number was.

    This thing will probably stay in the corporate/military domain forever. I see a ton of added complexity to the OS that Joe User wouldn't deal with.

    There's a potential for abuse in pretty much any new technology, but I can also see when and where a 'trusted OS' will be a huge step forward.

    'Untrusted' hardware will exist so long as there's a market for it. I see no reason to get too worked up over it.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  19. Re:Seat of Trust is infinite regression by SupahVee · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Also, conceptually, this will still not solve the trust issue, as someone could still open up their case and replace their BIOS chip.

    Ever tried to replace a BIOS that is soldered directly to the board? if so, please let me know how it went. :-)

    --
    "See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
  20. BIOS features by erroneus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think this reminds me of the situation with the CPU IDs in the Intel Pentium processors. I have yet to see a BIOS supporting such processors without the ability to disable the serial number.

    I suspect that the "trusted computing" features will be similar it its ability to disable such things. It will be required of virtually every motherboard manufacturer who wants to compete. I can't imagine hardware manufacturers being pressured into making a palladium only system.

    1. Re:BIOS features by FreeUser · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think this reminds me of the situation with the CPU IDs in the Intel Pentium processors. I have yet to see a BIOS supporting such processors without the ability to disable the serial number.

      Yes, but Intel CPUs allows software to reenable the serial number at whim, so even though you've turned it off the BIOS, MS Spyware is still able to read it and stamp in onto every video library file you make, or even view, if it so desires.

      The BIOS setting was a public relations gesture, with no real substance, and no protection for the consumer from exactly the sorts of abuses the public outcry against the feature engendered in the first place.

      I suspect that the "trusted computing" features will be similar it its ability to disable such things. It will be required of virtually every motherboard manufacturer who wants to compete. I can't imagine hardware manufacturers being pressured into making a palladium only system.

      I suspect you're right ... it will be very like the CPU ID. You'll be able to turn it off in BIOS, and Microsoft SpyOS (or Real Networks SpyViewer for Linux) will turn it right back on again, right behind your back.

      Worse, as another noted quite insightfully, Version 2 may not allow non-compliant OSes to boot at all. Goodbye FreeBSD, goodbye GNU/Linux, goodbye Free Software, goodbye Freedom. At least in the western world ... China, Taiwan, and India will likely find a very receptive market in the rest of the world to a non-Palladium platform still capable of running GNU/Linux or FreeBSD ... and the Palladium/DRM infected nations (USA, Australia, perhaps Europe) will be relegated to a technological backwater before the century is even half gone.

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  21. Ahem. by labratuk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's one type of motherboard I won't be buying.

    --
    Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
  22. The BIOS verifies itself? by redfenix · · Score: 5, Insightful



    BIOS starts...addressing the TPM chip that verifies the authenticity of the BIOS.

    What good is it for the BIOS to verify itself?
    If it's not authentic (i.e. compromised), would it really bother to address the TPM chip at all?

    --
    "It's a very tangled subsystem." --Windows kernel guru
  23. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Interesting

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  24. Read the patent here by jhantin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    According to US patent 6,327,652 that is indeed correct-- unsigned code simply doesn't get any access to secured data, and may not even be allowed to run on the same desktop as signed code. If the boot sector doesn't pass the BIOS's signature check, it's not given access to the machine private key, and therefore can neither unlock locally stored encrypted content nor pose as a trusted system to other machines on the net. The only bait-and-switch here is the possibility of a concerted push by software or content producers to require a trusted runtime. One minor wrinkle is that this will require boot-selector programs like LILO to either be code-signed or be unable to properly boot signed operating systems.

    --
    ...when you're writing a game...tweak the difficulty of "Easy" to something [your mother] can cope with. -- onion2k
  25. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

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  26. Tell them what you think! by Tom7 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I told AMI (link in the article: marketing@ami.com) that I don't think of this as a "feature". Computer manufacturers have backed down on much less invasive technologies (Pentium III's unique ID, for instance) before; I'm still a little bit hopeful that with all the competition in the mainboard scene we might be able to convince manufacturers not to adopt consumer-hostile technology like this.

    1. Re:Tell them what you think! by DickBreath · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm still a little bit hopeful that with all the competition in the mainboard scene we might be able to convince manufacturers not to adopt consumer-hostile technology like this.

      I got a new DVD player for Christmas. An APEX 3201. So far, I love it. I just eject the tray, press 8 4 2 1 on the remote, and get a secret menu. From here I can choose whether or not I would prefer Macrovision, and which region I would like, or can select All regions. (Sort of like asking, would you like to be kicked in the balls or not?)

      (Hint to stupid moderators: this post is NOT offtopic!)

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    2. Re:Tell them what you think! by Kanasta · · Score: 3, Interesting

      AFAIK, the PIII ID is still there, and a while back AMD said they'd add it to theirs, tho I can't remember if we convinced them not to...

  27. BUT FOR HOW LONG!?!?!?!?! by Eric_Cartman_South_P · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Just like all of those new DRM enabled CD's are true to the CD spec?

    The minute Palladium is up and running on these boxes, watch for manufacturers to go "WinModem" only: meaning BIOS's that only boot Windoze.

    Want to boot FreeBSD, so you played around with the BIOS? DMCA days "Go Directly To Jail, Do Not Pass SourceForge, Do Not Collect $200"

    1. Re:BUT FOR HOW LONG!?!?!?!?! by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hold on ... If it boots windows, why would anyone trust it?

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  28. Windows incompatibility by Ilan+Volow · · Score: 3, Funny

    If it can only run operating systems that can be trusted, how the hell am I going to be able to get it work with Windows?

    --
    Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
  29. Re:Right... by fwr · · Score: 3, Funny

    Amazingly, it only takes six Microsoft employees to product +5 posts. Think about it!

  30. DRM DRM DRM by rutledjw · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I keep hearing that this is NOT just about DRM but for all applications. Really? What software vendor is going to implement any of the TPCA features EXCEPT for the media industry?

    Is Oracle, BEA, IBM or any of the OSS projects going to do this? For what? What value is brought by wasting time and money implementing a strategy that has little or no benefit to the customer?

    Bah, this is a scarcely concealed attempt to appease the media giants (the people who FUND RIAA). Lack of customer interest will likely cause this to fail.

    • Companies implement TPCA at cost $X
    • Customers don't want / use
    • Competitor undercuts companies implementing TPCA because they don't waste their $$$ on it
    • TPCA meets it appropriate fate

    But what do I know? My company (who's in a "budget crunch") burns enough cash to single-handedly cause global warming, and we're profitable. Whatever, I'm going back to Oz where things make sense...

    --

    Computer Science is Applied Philosophy
  31. Re:Can you say..PPC Chips? by alfredo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I run OSX and Linux on PPC machines. I do not miss the world of the paranoids in Redmond.

    I don't need a 4 gig chip to type a paper or Photoshop a picture of Rumsfeld and a goat.

    Frame rate for games? Got my PS2 for that.

    --
    photosMy Photostream
  32. Re:The Inquirer has more info by grumpygrodyguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I will never buy one of these systems in my lifetime.

    --
    The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
  33. Black boxes by vidnet · · Score: 5, Funny
    These new "features" scare me. From what I gather, it's a roll of duct tape to further seal the black box computer. I've never liked devices that function according to ye olde proprietary model:

    1. Input
    2...499. None of your your damn business
    500. Output

    "Trusted computing", hah! Sure, the apps might trust each other and the system, but I won't!

  34. Re:digital signature? by MikeDX · · Score: 4, Funny

    The promise has been made that the user, or at least the OEM, can add trusted signers.

    So does this mean I can remove the microsoft signatures to prevent any microsoft code being run at all? :) Gimme!

  35. Re:before eveyone gets all worked up by theLOUDroom · · Score: 3, Insightful

    'Untrusted' hardware will exist so long as there's a market for it. I see no reason to get too worked up over it.

    Right, because the PC market is governed by pure capitalism. There are no monopolies out there abusing their power and causing the market to do things it wouldn't otherwise do. Good, I guess there's no reason to be worried at all. (shudder)

    --
    Life is too short to proofread.
  36. Trusted Computing by evenprime · · Score: 4, Informative
    Everyone on /. seems to be thinking about the potential for this to be used in DRM or religious wars about OS. Those are valid concerns. It is worth pointing out, though, that this BIOS has the potential to be used for less nefarious purposes; i.e. trusted hardware systems can be part of trusted platforms, which most security practitioners believe to be more secure. The idea of trusted hardware has been around at least as long as the Orange Book has existed. Specifically, it said:
    No computer system can be considered truly secure if the basic hardware and software mechanisms that enforce the security policy are themselves subject to unauthorized modification or subversion.
    Now, whether or not trusted systems actually are more secure is a different issue.
    --

    "Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
    I think that goes for OS's too
    1. Re:Trusted Computing by JoeBuck · · Score: 3, Informative

      Right, but the military (the authors of the Orange Book) are operating from similar assumptions as Hollywood: the operator of the machine is considered an untrustworthy person whose behavior must be carefully controlled. In this context, he or she must be prevented from bypassing operating system checks. Military multi-level security is also a form of DRM, and seeks to restrict even the most "trusted" users. And this may be entirely appropriate in many circumstances.

      The question is whether the purchaser of a machine is entitled to the equivalent of root or administrator privilege on the machine he or she owns, or whether the true administrator of the machine will live in Redmond or Washingon DC or Hollywood.

  37. Re:I wonder... by dillon_rinker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No. I'd make the same remark, but it would be a bitter sarcastic remark instead of a humorous sarcastic remark.

  38. Re:before eveyone gets all worked up by sqlrob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And illegalizing drugs eliminated that market quite effectively.

  39. evil by mao+che+minh · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Realize first that this technology is being billed as "trusted computing". Then realize that it is Microsoft Corporation pushing it. This should ring out ALARM YOU IDIOT! by itself. I'm not saying this because I am some kind of "Microsoft basher", as fat nerds like to call us sensible techie folk. I am saying it because there is no other truth.

    Microsoft is not interested in your security. Microsoft doesn't even much care about their own security, as long as the license is already paid for. They only want to make money and lock you into long term deals. The massive and drastic tactics by Microsoft to lock consumers into their platform indefinately is because there is actual competition (Linux, and an invigorated Macintosh) now. It is so plainly obvious that it stuns the senses.

    History should already be telling the world never to trust anything from Microsoft.

  40. If our worst nightmare comes true... by hkmwbz · · Score: 5, Interesting
    There will always be ways to crack protection mechanisms. I don't know what this new BIOS will mean, but it seems most people here fear that this is another step towards not having control of your own system.

    Well, I am worried about the development too, but at the same time, I think we must realize that no matter what they throw at us, someone will crack the protection.

    Ultimately, the entertainment industry will only be able to control individuals who allow themselves to be controlled.

    The rest of us will actively seek solutions that remove us from the evil claws of "Digital Rights Management", or rather "Consumer Ass Ramming" as it should really be called.

    They can encrypt and protect all they want, but someone will come through. Someone will work constantly on giving us our rights back - even if it means doing so illegally.

    If it becomes illegal to have control over one's own system and play off whatever one pleases, I will stand in line to break the law. Constantly. The more they try to control me, the more I will break laws.

    I am not saying that people's concerns about violated rights to control one's own system is not justified. I am just saying that we will prevail in the end. With the incredible amount of brainpower available to those with a liberal mind, the entertainment industry may win over the sheep who do not realize what is happening, but they will not get the ones that don't want to be ass-rammed.

    Sorry for the rant, but hopefully someone else agrees that the fight is far from over, and no matter what they tro to do, we will continue to fight...

    --
    Clever signature text goes here.
    1. Re:If our worst nightmare comes true... by dusanv · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ultimately, the entertainment industry will only be able to control individuals who allow themselves to be controlled.

      Sure. And the rest of us are going to legally become criminals for hacking our own machines (see: DMCA). Wanna go to jail? I'll be dead before I put out a penny for any type of hardware that contains DRM. Go milk someone else...

    2. Re:If our worst nightmare comes true... by Grishnakh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You will be able to manufacture replacement processors that include "slightly broken" hashing algorithms, but you'll need access to a fab plant, which might cost hundreds of millions of dollars and is an easy target for litigation.

      The litigation would be easy to get around by building it in a foreign country. Wouldn't it be ironic if China became the only place you could get a processor which gives you the freedom to run whichever OS you want?

    3. Re:If our worst nightmare comes true... by hkmwbz · · Score: 3, Interesting
      If someone can make money from selling "unprotected" chips, they will probably do so. If it is illegal that's fine, because it just means that it will be done by organized criminals instead. We will all be organized criminals, in fact. And I won't hesitate for a second.

      Can you stop drugs, child porn and other illegal things? No, it is still being manufactured because there is a demand for it. And even though some are busted, you will never get even a tiny part of the people doing it. My guess is that drug and child porn busting is just for show, so the police can justify their funds and pretend that they are actually making a huge difference.

      The corporation whores in our governments will naturally call us "terrorists" and compare us to drug abusers and child pornographers, but that is a small price to pay for freedom.

      They can call me what they will, but if they make it illegal to do what I want with my own equipment, then so be it. I will be a criminal, big time. In fact, I will probably spend considerable resources to spread the word about illegal chips and do whatever I can to work against the government.

      No, I know it's not that easy, but someone will do most likely it because there will be big money in it.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
  41. Don't lose sight of the purpose by JoeBuck · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This technology is intended to support the TCPA 1.0 specification for "trusted computing". What "trusted computing" is supposed to mean is that if a file has a label on it saying "don't copy me", then it is in principle impossible for the user to copy the file (other than in the ways permitted by the digital "rights" management label).

    Once you understand this, you'll see that the purpose is quite clear: of course boxes equipped with this BIOS will refuse to boot Linux. That's the whole point; they will be intended only to boot operating systems that strictly support DRM. Each machine will have unique "integrity tokens" which can be used as digital signatures, so that everything you do on the machine (create a document, contact a web site) can be traced. Since you'll have to pay for your downloads on a credit card, this can all be cross-correlated. The integrity tokens will be digitally signed by the manufacturer, so that any action taken on the net by the owner of one of these beauties can, at least, be traced to the original purchaser of the machine. Secret, DMCA-protected protocols will assure that only "trusted computers" can connect to their web sites.

    Now, of course, initial implementations of this concept are likely to have flaws that can be exploited by crackers (example: find some way to write a program that replaces the "trusted" OS with a BSD or Linux kernel; reprogram the flash chip to disable checks), but I fear that they will get it right eventually.

    At some point, then, the net will bifurcate: there will be a world of glorified DVD players calling themselves computers interacting with restricted network sites, and a world of general-purpose computers interacting with sites that follow standard protocols. Attempts to outlaw the "free world" will not succeed because it will do too much damage, but those who participate in the "free world" will be viewed with suspicion, called pirates, etc. ISPs might be pressured into refusing to connect with "untrusted" machines.

    After five years or so, though, I expect the whole thing to fall apart, because countries that don't go along with this brain damage will acquire a technological lead, as the US enters an era where computer science is treated the way that the USSR treated science: dangerous state secrets not to be shared.

  42. My take. by Anonymous+Freak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Okay, my take, based on working knowledge of 'trusted' computing and hardware design (I used to be a support enginner in Intel's server division,) is as follows:

    'Trusted computing' relies on the fact that every component is known to be secure. Of course 'secure' is a cagey term, but in this case, it means that the end application knows that nothing is interfering with it. The uses vary, from DRM to financial transactions, to other uses we haven't thought of. But, there are three main pieces in a trusted system:

    1. The hardware. The hardware needs to be 'trusted' in that we are certain that there is no hardware tampering or eavesdropping going on (of course, this applies only the the internals of the computer, a packet sniffer, or even a keyboard monitor, would be external, and ouside the scope of monitoring,) and to make sure that the machine is the machine it's supposed to be. This really started with Intel's Pentium III adding a processor serial number. The point of that (as with Palladium) was that each machine could be positively identified. If you had previously made that computer 'trusted', then set it so that only trusted machines could perform a said transaction, we could guarantee that the end user is who he says he is, from a hardware standpoint. This new BIOS is much the same way. Each board with this BIOS will be able to say "Yes, I am the motherboard that was here when this software was installed, so yes, I am the same computer." Obviously, this has implications for hardware failure, even moreso than Windows XP's activation problems.

    2. The OS. The OS must have support for trusted computing. It must be able to partition off the 'trusted' applications from the untrusted ones. It must be able to encrypt the contents of the drive, and only allow trusted applications to access protected data, and only allow trusted applications to access the 'trusted' part of memory. (So as to disallow one program from sniffing the program files, memory, or data transport streams of a protected application.) This would probably see alot of use by multiplayer online games, as they could make certain that no third-party applications that reside on the game-running-PC could be used to cheat. (As with some of the 'god map' programs for Everquest.) Again, this does not protect the data stream once it leaves the computer, an encrypted network connection would be required. Obviously, for the OS parts to work, users must log in to the system with a username and password at least. Biometric security would be better, so as to more certainly guarantee that the user is who he says he is.

    3. Applications. The entire purpose of 'trusted computing' is the applications. Applications that need to know that the user is who he says he is, and that is done by both the OS and the hardware. As with the game example above, other uses are financial transactions (for example, you could set it so that only your computer has access to your bank account records, so that even if someone stole your hard drive, and your username and password, they still wouldn't be able to get at your data,) and DRM. It makes a perfect DRM vehicle, as now the labels can enforce the one-computer rule. A downloaded file would refuse to play without the original application, OS, and hardware.

    The question is if these systems can boot a non-trusted OS? Of course they can! You won't be able to use trusted features (for example, your bank's online account access wouldn't work,) but you could use it just fine for applications that don't use MS' Palladium. Just like the Pentium III's serial number could be disabled, and all you lost was access to the (very few) programs that required it.

    --
    Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
    The purpose of that site was not known.
  43. No Big Deal, Right? by 9jack9 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    For those of you consider this is no big deal, consider the following.

    Let's say the Microsoft Watch is a big success. Go ahead and laugh. They've got the bucks to seed these sorts of things into the marketplace for years. Eventually something will stick. If not the Watch then the MS Clock or the MS Hairdryer or the MS Refrigerator, or something.

    Now, let's say you, as a geek, have reprogrammed the thing so that it runs FreeWatch, the oss embedded watch OS that does all the cool stuff you want it to.

    The next version of the MS Watch is Trusted. It only runs approved software. It only runs approved services. And if it doesn't recognize the os and the software, it just doesn't run. Of course, approved means approved by Microsoft, or by the Watch Software Consortium. And they'll be happy to add FreeWatch, for $500 million and a 25% cut of the profits.

    If you don't think that's the way it will work, think again, very carefully. It isn't Trusted to Microsoft until it's utterly predictable. It will only run MS-approved software. It will only display MS colors. Once it's utterly predictable, then support costs go down, service fees go up, and 3. Profit!

    Now, extend that to the PC platform. Microsoft's stated goal is for computers to be as predictible as kitchen appliances. That means they run exactly the way it runs. Support costs go down, service fees go up. Paladium, TCPA, DMCA, DRM, it's all the same. It is to give you absolutely reliable computing. To end hacking, cracking, viruses, tinkering, end-user encryption, and everything else most geeks hold near and dear. And incidently, to put the hands of the electronics and entertainment industries into your wallet, forever.

    If you think this is unlikely, as yourself, why is the membership list of the TCPA secret?

    Maybe you still don't agree with me. Maybe I'm wrong. I really hope so. But perhaps it's worth keeping an eye on things.

  44. Nothing to worry about... by Eric+Damron · · Score: 3, Funny

    Hey I just got a prototype of the trusted computing BIOS. It's not so bad. As far as I can tell I can do all the things that I use to.

    No one is controlling my hardware but me. I still worry about the way that Microsoft is &$^^ *$(#@) ()%)$! but other than that it's not too bad.

    Oh yeah and I still have concerns about how the government is )^%$ $^*** $#*%$ &^. (&$# %$*@% (^% . But I'm sure we'll be able to stop that.

    We do need to watch the entertainment industry also because they're still trying to #@*^ %#^ &$ (&$%)*%.

    Yep these new BIOS are nothing to worry about.

    --
    The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
  45. I *guess* you're being ironic by tkrotchko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "One file slips out and bamo - no one is paying for it anymore."

    Well, high-quality digital media with no copy protection has been sold for over 15 years and the people selling it made record profits last year.

    Its called the "compact disk". Perhaps you've heard of it? Phillips invented it, and it turns out that not only can you make copies for under five cents, you can compress them digitally to make files to store on any device.

    It may catch on.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  46. It doesn't... by Kjella · · Score: 3, Informative

    It just sends a wake-up call to the TPM chip. "Hey can you take a look at me and tell me I'm clean?" The TPM chip is still the top-level.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  47. Read the TCPA / Palladium FAQ by vinsci · · Score: 5, Informative
    Ross Andersson at the University of Cambridge has written an excellent introduction to TCPA / Palladium, which explains both sides of the story.

    Read it here: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/%7Erja14/tcpa-faq.html

    The two last sections are worth repeating here:

    24. So why is this called `Trusted Computing'? I don't see why I should trust it at all!

    It's almost an in-joke. In the US Department of Defense, a `trusted system or component' is defined as `one which can break the security policy'. This might seem counter-intuitive at first, but just stop to think about it. The mail guard or firewall that stands between a Secret and a Top Secret system can - if it fails - break the security policy that mail should only ever flow from Secret to Top Secret, but never in the other direction. It is therefore trusted to enforce the information flow policy.

    Or take a civilian example: suppose you trust your doctor to keep your medical records private. This means that he has access to your records, so he could leak them to the press if he were careless or malicious. You don't trust me to keep your medical records, because I don't have them; regardless of whether I like you or hate you, I can't do anything to affect your policy that your medical records should be confidential. Your doctor can, though; and the fact that he is in a position to harm you is really what is meant (at a system level) when you say that you trust him. You may have a warm feeling about him, or you may just have to trust him because he is the only doctor on the island where you live; no matter, the DoD definition strips away these fuzzy, emotional aspects of `trust' (that can confuse people).

    Remember during the late 1990s, as people debated government control over cryptography, Al Gore proposed a `Trusted Third Party' - a service that would keep a copy of your decryption key safe, just in case you (or the FBI, or the NSA) ever needed it. The name was derided as the sort of marketing exercise that saw the Russian colony of East Germany called a `Democratic Republic'. But it really does chime with DoD thinking. A Trusted Third Party is a third party that can break your security policy.

    25. So a `Trusted Computer' is one that can break my security?

    Now you've got it.

    --

    Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
    1. Re:Read the TCPA / Palladium FAQ by vinsci · · Score: 3, Informative
      So who is Ross Anderson? He is at Cambridge University, UK. From his homepage:

      I lead the security group at the laboratory, where I hold a faculty post as Reader in Security Engineering.

      I don't think Andersson is, as you suggest, biased against TCPA / Palladium and certainly not "heavily biased" (see Bill Arbaugh's comment below). His analysis does however point out very serious consequences of the TCPA / Palladium infrastructure. The consequences are what they are, Anderson just made a very good job in formulating them.

      He is far from alone in his view on TCPA / Palladium. In fact, Bill Arbaugh, one of the inventors of TCPA (US patent 6,185,678 here), has second thoughts. His comment on Anderson begins:

      We are all aware of the criticisms that the TCPA has received. Ross Anderson did a good job of explaining the problems in an abstract fashion, but I felt that there were some things left out (Privacy concerns).

      By the way, trustedcomputing.org does not allow the general public to view the member list anymore. You can however see one list of 170+ member companies in Lucky Green's presentation below (links from http://www.cypherpunks.to/:

      The slides from Lucky Green's DEFCON X talk, Trusted Computing Platform Alliance: The mother(board) of all Big Brothers, are now available in the following formats:

      Other resources with much information are:

      --

      Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
    2. Re:Read the TCPA / Palladium FAQ by vinsci · · Score: 3, Informative
      Oops, the links to Lucky Green's presentation were obviously wrong; here are the correct links:

      The slides from Lucky Green's DEFCON X talk, Trusted Computing Platform Alliance: The mother(board) of all Big Brothers, are now available in the following formats:
      --

      Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
  48. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  49. Palladium is no practical help against viruses by Tom7 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    > But isn't one of the "advantages" of Palladium that your friendly neighborhood viruses can no longer run and erase your
    > MP3s/JPGs/etc, because they are not "trusted" code? I'm not sure how that will relate to unsigned VB scripts. It's designed
    > to protect the consumer from themselves... and legislate what (Microsoft's, I assume) programmers could not implement
    > properly.

    No, Palladium won't help with that. Most viruses and trojans today are just memory resident processes like any other. There is no easy way to separate a "good" program from a "virus" program. (Seriously, how would it? And how would it be able to tell if a "good" program had an exploitable backdoor or buffer-overflow in it?) It's true that palladium might protect you against, say, boot sector viruses, but there are ways a properly implemented operating system can do this, too.

    We already have all the hardware we need to provide computer security (namely, protected memory). Palladium's only purpose is removing the ability for users to inspect and modify their own computers (in an attempt to make DRM schemes fly), so don't listen to what they tell you!

  50. Re:Can you say..PPC Chips? by pmz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    PPC

    Don't forget SPARC! It is also an open alternative to Wintel with a good selection of excellent operating systems: Solaris, Linux, and *BSD.

    We all should embrace PowerPC, SPARC, MIPS, and other well-known and easily licensed brands of ISAs. These--as long as Congress doesn't screw everything up--will be the path forward when Microsoft, Intel, et. al. try to shove TCPA down everyone's throats.

    Also, it certainly doesn't hurt that Sun, SGI, IBM (RS/6000), and Apple all produce really good hardware that lasts into the secondary markets. It isn't hard to find ten-year-old examples of each of these brands still serving useful purposes throughout server rooms and hobbyist desktops all over the world.

    When the Wintel-brainwashed masses find themselves backed into an alley with the only exit closing rapidly, we can say to them, "We have the way out!" (imagine Microsoft reeling at the bitter taste of their own words:)

  51. TCPA != Palladium by Chris+Colohan · · Score: 3, Informative

    PLEASE go and read about both TCPA and Palladium before flaming them. They are NOT the same thing. Really.

    Both TCPA and Palladium are ways of achieving "trusted computing", which is the ability for a program to run in an environment where the program knows (and can certify to people other than the computer's owner) that no other unwanted software is monitoring or modifying its actions. But how they are implemented is quite different.

    TCPA uses a secure boot process. The BIOS verifies that the boot block is trusted; the boot block verifies that the os kernel is trusted; the kernel then verifies the trust level of specific applications; etc. This is what this BIOS implements. The main feature of TCPA (in my mind) is HARDWARE SIMPLICITY -- all that is needed is a small extension to the BIOS which modifies the boot process.

    Palladium is from Microsoft, and it shows. Palladium is designed to start up in already running copy of pretty-much-unmodified Windows. Loading the Palladium subsystem (now known as a nexus) is supposed to be fairly easy, sort of like loading a device driver. But to get this ability they PAY with hardware complexity -- the CPU itself has to be changed so that the address space of the nexus can be partitioned, so it is not visible to or under the control of the main Windows kernel. This is one of many reasons why you don't see any Palladium enhanced systems in the real world yet -- Intel (or AMD) has not yet started selling a chip which supports what Microsoft needs to make Palladium work. A main design goal in Palladium seems to be "don't mess with Windows, we don't want to break legacy code".

  52. I wrote AMI and this is their response by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · · Score: 4, Informative

    Thank you for taking time to contact us here at AMI. We are sorry to hear
    of your decision to not seek out an AMI solution for your next purchase.
    While we respect your right to make that decision we would like to take a
    minute to underline some relevant points about our announcement that were
    not adequately conveyed in the "article" posted on Slashdot. We urge you to
    please give us a minute of your time to fully understand what AMI is
    offering and thus be able to make a fully informed decision.

    It must be noted that AMI has not announced support for Palladium. Palladium
    is an initiative by an OS entity that is slated for the future. To be
    honest, though we do know about it, AMI has not begun any development
    related to it. At this point we have not made any decisions on support
    either.

    TCPA does not equal Palladium. While certainly there is some future
    development overlap between the two, TCPA is being introduced by OEM's as a
    security option to protect systems through hardware and firmware. This
    feature is completely optional to our customers (OEM's, ODM's, CM's and
    other system builders) that they may choose to make it available or not
    depending on the needs of their market. We have had requests from a number
    of customers for this technology.

    Regarding the limitations of a system with TCPA I would offer the link below
    to the public specification for further information on compatibility with
    different OS's, and hardware. Based on that spec we can tell you that it
    does not limit the ability to run Linux (or any other open source solution).

    As a smaller company itself, AMI has always supported innovation and
    creativity as these have been our main tools in competing against much
    larger companies in our industry. We would not do anything that in our
    minds would damage our credibility or reputation for world class BIOS
    solutions and will carefully evaluate this type of feedback when it does
    come time to examine any future technologies. We would also like to
    recommend that anyone who is opposed to a Palladium-type solution in the
    future, please make that known to OEM's and system builders. As they are
    our customers, we definitely listen to them in terms of what they (and
    hopefully their customers) will want in future BIOS.

    Thank you again for your time in contacting us and we hope that this and
    some of the links below will shed some light on AMI's plans.

    LINKS

    Original Articles on theinquirer.net

    http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7089
    http:/ /www.theinquirer.net/?article=7103

    AMI TCPA module Whitepaper
    http://www.ami.com/support/doc/TCPA_wh itepaper.pdf

    TCPA Website

    Basically wrote them and told them I wouldn't be buying from them from now on. I would reckon this looks like the company is receiving a bit of angry emails from people who build their own computers and/or are involved in the computer industry.
    Maybe they're worried about what WE think!? Nahhh...

  53. Not so fast by vinsci · · Score: 3, Informative
    At least two companies have started working on a TCPA-compliant version of GNU/Linux.

    So, is there a problem? Yes, there is. You can't modify the kernel. If you try, it will not be trusted by the TCPA chip and so no application running on that kernel can gain access to any feature, media or application that requires TCPA. Certifying a Linux kernel (or any other OS) as TCPA-compliant is expensive and you would need to do it for every modification of the kernel. What value is the GPL if you can't use the source to create your own kernel?

    Ross Anderson's TCPA / Palladium FAQ has a more detailed discussion (excerpt from section 18):

    [TCPA hardware is referred to as the "Fritz chip" in the FAQ]

    TCPA will undermine the General Public License (GPL), under which many free and open source software products are distributed. The GPL is designed to prevent the fruits of communal voluntary labour being hijacked by private companies for profit. Anyone can use and modify software distributed under this licence, but if you distribute a modified copy, you must make it available to the world, together with the source code so that other people can make subsequent modifications of their own.

    At least two companies have started work on a TCPA-enhanced version of GNU/linux. This will involve tidying up the code and removing a number of features. To get a certificate from the TCPA corsortium, the sponsor will then have to submit the pruned code to an evaluation lab, together with a mass of documentation showing why various known attacks on the code don't work. (The evaluation is at level E3 - expensive enough to keep out the free software community, yet lax enough for most commercial software vendors to have a chance to get their lousy code through.) Although the modified program will be covered by the GPL, and the source code will be free to everyone, it will not make full use of the TCPA features unless you have a certificate for it that is specific to the Fritz chip on your own machine. That is what will cost you money (if not at first, then eventually).

    You will still be free to make modifications to the modified code, but you won't be able to get a certificate that gets you into the TCPA system. Something similar happens with the linux supplied by Sony for the Playstation 2; the console's copy protection mechanisms prevent you from running an altered binary, and from using a number of the hardware features. Even if a philanthropist does a not-for-profit secure GNU/linux, the resulting product would not really be a GPL version of a TCPA operating system, but a proprietary operating system that the philanthropist could give away free. (There is still the question of who would pay for the user certificates.)

    People believed that the GPL made it impossible for a company to come along and steal code that was the result of community effort. This helped make people willing to give up their spare time to write free software for the communal benefit. But TCPA changes that. Once the majority of PCs on the market are TCPA-enabled, the GPL won't work as intended. The benefit for Microsoft is not that this will destroy free software directly. The point is this: once people realise that even GPL'led software can be hijacked for commercial purposes, idealistic young programmers will be much less motivated to write free software.

    --

    Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
  54. Re:before eveyone gets all worked up by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3
    ...and what if your email you recieved from grandma requires pallidium or what about your excel spreadsheets from the office? What now?

    "'Untrusted' hardware will exist so long as there's a market for it. I see no reason to get too worked up over it.

    There will be no market for it. Why would an OEM install hardware that disrupts most "innovative" OS and office software maker that brings them all of there profits!

    Linux makes up %2 of the market!

    If joe six pack buys a "Free" pc yet can not bring "trusted" word docs home from work or have the latest and greatest XP Media edition to watch all the new hollywood hits or visit porn sites that are "protected" then he will return it. Return == lost profits. I bet Microsoft is blackmailing all the motherboard makers and threatening to throw them out of bussiness if they do not include drm oops I mean pallidium. Porn sites already encrypt alot of there video's into WMV files and I noticed that they also use javascript to prevent copying and pasting pics from there site to your computers. Like the vcr's before them they will drive the market and Microsoft and Hollywood will join them.



    The average ignorant joe will demand it and will be forced on everyone. If oracle pisses off Ms then bam they can not develop on Windows. If borland wants to write .net software, BAM out of bussiness. This is very scary. What will stop ms from making every software writer in existance sign non compete licenses in order to be signed? If this happens then Microsoft will run unopposed in every software catagory they want to get into. Noone can compete because ms will take the right for them to be signed away.

    We all should be worried and worked up about it. If the apps require it then it will be everywhere.

  55. Maybe Gigabyte's Dual BIOS could fit here by joeflies · · Score: 3, Informative

    Gigabyte offers mobos that support two bios copies. It's there to provide BIOS failover (not that I've ever, ever had a problem with BIOS failing), but perhaps it could be adapted to allow dual-boot bios between Palladium and non-Palladium OSs. Tom's hardware explains Gigabyte Dual Bios