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Linked: The New Science of Networks

kurtkilgor writes "One of the most frustrating things about many areas of science and engineering today is that we know the basics but don't know how to put them together. We know a great deal about how atoms interact, but we aren't so sure about how to combine them to make a 'big picture' of matter. We understand how an individual computer works, but how to build large informational networks with computers is another thing entirely. We know how people act individually, and yet we can't extrapolate the behavior of entire societies from this. I've long been interested in these types of complexity problems, but not a whole lot of material has been available. In particular, Malcolm Gladwell's book The Tipping Point left me searching for an explanation for the many curiosities that he presents. Is there a mathematical description of tipping points? Is there a way to find out when and why things tip? How does information spread through society?" Kurtkilgor reviews below Albert-László Barabási's Linked: The New Science of Networking, which attempts to answer these questions. Linked: The New Science of Networks author Albert-L�szl� Barab�si pages 229 publisher Perseus Publishing rating 10 reviewer kurtkilgor ISBN 0738206679 summary An introduction to scale-free networks and their broad applications

It turns out that in the past few years, a decent amount of progress has been made on this front, largely thanks to the Internet. The Internet allows scientists to exchange information and speed up research, but more pertinently it is a test subject for these kinds of large-scale interaction problems. Linked: The New Science of Networks presents both the story of how the science has developed, and what it means. Unlike much popular scientific literature, the author himself is an active participant in the field.

The biggest surprise and most important lesson of the book is that the Internet, cellular biology, society, matter, and an incredible array of other seemingly unrelated things all form a particular type of structure called a scale-free network. These types of networks have only been described in detail recently, and their study promises to be as fundamental and rewarding as, for instance, waves or diffusion. The presence of the same structure in many unrelated situations suggests that there is a deep physical or mathematical principle which governs them.

The discovery of this principle is the subject of the first half of the book, which is a sort of detective story that leads from the most primitive concepts of graphs, as pioneered by Euler, to the state of the art. It is very interesting in itself to see how inconsistencies in mathematical models have led people to develop more and more accurate ideas of how such networks function. There is a tiny amount of math in the footnotes available for those who want it, but generally no prior knowledge is required. The author writes with plenty of anecdotes, especially in the beginning starting out with such introductions as this one of Paul Erdos:

"One afternoon in late 1920s Budapest, a seventeen-year-old youth cantered with a weird gait through the streets and stopped in front of an elegant shoe shop that sold custom-made shoes ... After knocking on the store's door-an act that would have seemed just as odd back then as today-he entered, ignoring the saleswoman at the counter, and went up to a fourteen-year-old boy in the back of the shop.

'Give me a four digit number,' he said.

'2,532,' came the wide-eyed boy's reply . . .

'The square of it is 6,441,024,' he continued. 'Sorry, I am getting old and I cannot tell you the cube.'"

For another example of both the writing style and the unusual content, the author humorously describes the discovery of a similarity between Bose-Einstein condensation and economic monopoly:

"Essentially Microsoft takes it all. As a node, it is not just slightly bigger than its next competitor. In the number of its consumers it simply cannot be compared. We all behave like extremely social Bose particles, convenience condensing us into a faceless mass of Windows users. As we purchase new computers and install Windows, we carefully feed and maintain the condensate developed around Microsoft. The operation systems market carries the basic signatures of a network that has undergone Bose-Einstein condensation, displaying clear winner-takes-all behavior."

The rest of the book devotes a chapter to a particular example of a network: epidemics, the Internet, economics, etc. One thing is abundantly clear: the more we know about how these things work, the better we'll be able to curb DDOS attacks, stop disease, and control economic failures. An unlikely example of a scale-free network is the cell. It turns out that the interactions among a cell's proteins can be modeled this way, and if we could only understand it, we would be able to come up with treatments analytically, instead of by trial and error as it is done now.

It seems to me that with a greater understanding of networks, we will be able to finally advance in many fields in which progress is currently stalled. From firefly research to AIDS treatment, this is the Next Big Thing.

You can purchase Linked from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

160 comments

  1. Book's site by dietlein · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here is the book's official site.

    This is the photos page, with photos like.. umm... this.

  2. More reviews by dietlein · · Score: 5, Informative

    CS Monitor (thumbs-up)

    Nature (ho-hum)

    Computer User (thumbs-way-up)

  3. Duhh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Ahhh... Duhhh... the higher the level of abstraction the more complex the problems become because we don't really COMPLETELY understand the lower levels of abstraction. The errors in our assumpts manifest themselves in more unpredicable ways as we base higher and higher level concepts on those models.

    1. Re:Duhh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Possibly true, but even if we do have a perfect model of something, you cannot always predict higher-order behaviours. For example, in Conway's Game Of Life, one can build a Turing machine. How could you predict that from the base-level rules, which are a perfect description of the problem?

    2. Re:Duhh.... by wilgamesh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is somewhat of a misleading remark. And I think this comment misses the spirit of the book and topic presented.

      For instance, in the game of chess, we understand _completely_ what each piece does, but that doesn't mean we can play a perfect game, or even a good game. Although it certainly is a prerequisite in this case.

      And for instance, in a branch of physics known as critical phenomena, where one tries to explain the behavior of things like water evaporating, or magnets losing magnetization, etc. You can construct extremely simple models where there's like one lower level of abstraction to know, but then you can't answer extremely simple questions about higher levels of abstraction.

      Let me draw an example, that is widely known as the Ising model of magnetism in physics. We can make a very very simple model of magnetism by saying that all magnetic spins can be UP or DOWN, and the energy is 1 if an adjacent pair of magnetic spins are the same, and -1 if the spins are different. Then we put all these little spins on a lattice, and we call this collection of little spins a _magnet_. Ok, this is a very very simple model, but now we ask, does this thing behave like a magnet? A tough question in 2 and 3 dimensions! Why? It's not because of errors in our assumptions, it's basically because we have very primitive mathematical tools to tackle this type of problem. We are forced to resort to mathematical tools such as infinite transfer matrices, and jordan-wigner transformations.

      Yes, in one sense, I agree with your post, that round-off errors cause chaos to occur over very long simulations or models can be inaccurate and have bad predictions. But the spirit of the book is in examining very simple models that seem to have correct predictions, but are complicated enough that we can't manipulate these models with finesse to extract additional information about the system.

    3. Re:Duhh.... by Hepkat · · Score: 1

      I agree w/ all of this, but now I think, perhaps we've all missed the point. I haven't read the book, so I could be completely off, but I don't think it's about "we have a grasp on at this level so what happens at another level?", tho we have to use these situations to describe the abstraction, it is "what is the process of this abstraction?" Not what happens and why, but how these abstractions are related.

    4. Re:Duhh.... by protonman · · Score: 1

      Uhm. It doesn't have to be easy.

      And the proof of a GoL TM is exactly a prediction. I might be wrong, but a mathematical "prediction" of the existence of a GoL TM seems to me far more likely than the accidental discovery of one (gosh! It's a Turing machine! Who'ould've thunk it!).

      So, as proven by the proof of the existence of a GoL TM ;-), you can predict the existence of one from the basic-level rules. *You* just can't.

      --
      The man of knowledge must be able not only to love his enemies but also to hate his friends.
  4. More complex than you think. by gpinzone · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the required classes for my Engineering degree was a course in the mathematics behind networks. It was without a doubt one of the most difficult coursework I have ever experienced. Even with all of the work we performed to create mathematical models of network nodes, etc., they were still unrealistic due to the overall complexity of "real" networks. For example, basic router queuing assumes the packets have an incoming probability Poisson distribution and outgoing has an exponential distribution. This is just an approximation used to allow us to get our arms around the problem. If you examine this model closely, you will find out that it implies that the packets that enter aren't necessarily the same size when they leave! Other issues like probabilistic routing rather than trying to model "smart" routers that adjust based on traffic patterns, etc. aren't usually modeled either.

  5. Read in conjunction with ... by fygment · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... Wolfram's, "New Kind of Science" and Fritjof Capra's, "The Web of Life" to get a tremendous sense of convergence of many fields and principles. The incredible interconnectedness of things makes you wonder how anyone can claim to have " ... found the gene for ..." or dare to think that their actions only have local repurcussions. You listening, George?

    --
    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
    1. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by instantkarma1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wolfram's "new kind of science" is exactly in this vein. It basically states science has been approaching complex issues back-asswards.....that very simple rules can produce very complex behavior. He gives many examples of this thru visual patterns, and then applies this same principals to almost every aspect of science, from chemistry to physics.....Very much worth a read (if you can can get past his own lack of modesty... ;-) )

    2. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Sorry to rain on your parade.

      Neither publications has gone through the scientific peer review process and should, therefore, not be taken as credible sources.

      Besides, Capra is way too far into the New Ageish thinking for my comfort anyway.

    3. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by instantkarma1 · · Score: 1

      You are absolutely correct; Wolfram has been mocked and belittled by his peers over this body of work. However, that does not mean it is without merit. It's a radical change in thought, which typically does not initially go over well in any field, much less hard science. So, scathing peer-review aside, I believe his book contains food for thought, and is certainly worth a read for anyone interested in this field. (And for those who don't know anything about Wolfram, he is the creator of Mathematica.....)

      Another point, Galileo didn't exactly pass peer review, either.

    4. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by pirula · · Score: 1

      While the fields of psychology & sociology (or atomic physicis & astronomy, or biology & psychology) model the individual level and network level indepenently, what people are searching for now is a common model, or bridge as to how the two levels of granularity relate to each other. 'The Tipping Point' is about trying to identify the point at which a phenomena goes from the individual level to the social level, and about the forces that make it happen. Its very anecdotal, not mathematical (disappointing to me) but well worth a read for the ideas it presents. It looks like 'A New Science of Networks' explores similar ideas, but in far more diverse fields. Wolframs book takes things a step further and suggests that the mathematics to describe these phenomena will come from cellular automata, but still provides mostly speculation and a bunch of observed consistencies in nature. Another read I suggest is 'Godel Escher Bach' by Douglas R. Hofstadter for a dense but lighthearted examination of how different levels of granularity interact to produce art that is appealing, in addition to the classic examples of mathematical/computational systems, society, etc.

    5. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Wolfram has been mocked and belittled by his peers over this body of work.
      Yes: because the stuff that's new in Wolfram is not good and the stuff that's good is not new. The rest of the hard sciences have been investigating complexity theory and the emergence of complex phenomena from simple rules for years now, and have produced work of far greater value than Wolfram in this area.
    6. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by kovas · · Score: 1

      >Yes: because the stuff that's new in Wolfram is not good >and the stuff that's good is not new. The rest of the hard

      Your opinion is a pathetic misinformed regurgitation of others' equally pathetic 'reviews' and 'comments'.
      The fact of the matter is that there is _nothing_ in the past like the approach that wolfram advocates. As for specific results, how about a model for shell growth that contradicts widely held ideas about evolution? Or in math, the shortest possible axiom system for logic? Or in physics, obliterating time, space, and matter and still being able to derive special and general relativity from a far simpler structure? Or in CS, the simplest known universal system? Not to mention an absolute mountain of important and interesting results in the notes.

      >sciences have been investigating complexity theory and >the emergence of complex phenomena from simple rules >for years now, and have produced work of far greater

      Like what? how many popularized accounts of fractal dimensions and power laws do we need? The fact of the matter is that the establishment has produced very few meaningful results. And the fact of the matter is almost no one investigates simple, abstract systems. Just look at the literature.

    7. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by varaani · · Score: 1

      Try also Yaneer Bar-Yam's "Dynamics of Complex Systems". (it's freely available)

    8. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      Hardly anyone ever actually claims to have "found the gene for" anything, because biologists know that it's usually much more complex than that. Journalists use phrases like that because they're catchy. There are a couple of exceptions to this rule -- e.g., cystic fibrosis, and I believe sickle-cell anemia as well -- but everybody who actually works in the field knows that most genetic diseases involve a lot of genes and/or regulatory mechanisms for those genes which are, in most cases, still not well understood.

      This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine: people making assumptions about the behavior and motivation of scientists that have nothing to do with the way real scientists actually do their jobs, and a lot more to do with catchy headlines and fear-mongering. Sorry if I'm overreacting.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    9. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by Madcapjack · · Score: 1

      If Wolfram has claimed to have invented the science of complexity, then it is a little vexing, because it isn't true. but i haven't read his book, and I've only read one review. as for popularized accounts of complexity. yes there are plenty. but there are even more papers and books out there that are meaningful. in fact the literature is so vast that i'm drowning in it. but then again, I'm not only looking at fractals and power laws.

    10. Re:Read in conjunction with ... by Madcapjack · · Score: 1

      its my pet peeve too. this is especially true when it comes to statistics. journalists present these in ways that mortifies the statiticians!

  6. Re:Would people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We do know the answer to everything is 42. That's one unknown variable down and how many trillion to go?

  7. "New science of networks" by Thud457 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Wouldn't that be Nexialism?

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  8. The New Science by Madcapjack · · Score: 4, Insightful
    the science of networks is really just one branch of the emerging science of complexity. What is really interesting is that game theorists will borrow from network theorists, network theorists from game theorists, game theorists from evolutionary theorists, evolutionary theorists from game theorists, network theorists from evolutionary theorists, evolutionary theorists from AI theorists, and all of them from linguistics, philosophy, cognitive sciences, economics, and the other social sciences, computer modeling, agent-based modeling, etc. and visa versa. This is the future, and the future is bright.

    The science of networks is not so new, but it is gaining importance rapidly. I'm interested in the application of network theory to the flow of information in structured populations. Network theory would be part of this, but so would other social theories (kinship, information, psychology, etc.)

    for interesting papers on networks go to:

    http://www.santafe.edu

    the center for the science of complexity

    1. Re:The New Science by Just_Tom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "... What is really interesting is that game theorists will borrow from network theorists, network theorists from game theorists, game theorists from evolutionary theorists, evolutionary theorists from game theorists, network theorists from evolutionary theorists, evolutionary theorists from AI theorists, and all of them from linguistics, philosophy, cognitive sciences, economics, and the other social sciences, computer modeling, agent-based modeling, etc. and visa versa..."

      True, very true. Not only that, but the author of this book is a physicist!

      95% of this book was familiar and/or easy to understand, coming from an AI and maths background. Where it occasionally lost me was in the sudden jumps and links between seemingly unrelated fields.

      The Bose-Einstein condensation analogy with Microsoft's OS monopoly is one example of this. In the terms of the models Barabasi et al used, the discussion around this makes perfect sense*. It's only in the atmosphere of a physics department that such a connection would have been made, but the non-physicists reading the book could have done with a little more explanation. Most of the book, however, was extremely thorough and accessible.

      *If I understand it correctly, the scale-free model predicts (and accounts for) the formation of hubs, but it is possible to modify the model such that the hubs can all converge to one level. This is governed by equations Einstein formulated in the 1920s. Nice to know, but not very clearly explained.

    2. Re:The New Science by buswolley · · Score: 2, Informative
      Mod this one up!

      and visit http://www.santafe.edu. It is very interesting. Santafe.edu is a college that gathers researchers from a wide number of fields in a shared environment, so that they can share ideas between fields of study.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    3. Re:The New Science by starm_ · · Score: 1

      I think people are trying to get too much credit for this new area of research. This is not new, it has existed for a years. And the "Old Kind of Science" has a lot of merit too. The difference between the two is not a mathimatical discovery or a physical theory, it is computing power. Scientists have know for a long time that things can be simulated by cellular automata. I find Wolfram arrogant for trying to get credits for this way of thinking. The passage from algebraic approximations to cellular automata comes from the computers.

      A few years ago it would have been practically impossible to use these kinds of theory. We are just now getting the computing speed and memory (at an affordable price) needed to simulate, millions on molecules in a cell, or millions of cells in a body, or millions of neurons in a brain, or millions of atoms in a stream of water etc...

      Of course now that we have the computers we can advance our knowledge in the field of cellular automata, being able to test the theories and refine them.

      And I am of the same opinion as Barabási or Wolfram: I think this kind of aproach is incredibly powerful, enabling us to predict things and create artificial intelligence in a way never possible before.

      This however does not make algebric solutions or aproximations less usefull. Math is a tool wether it is in the algebraic form or in the form of cellular automata. BOTH methods are aproximations of reality. Unless we find the grand unified theory of everything and we simulate things to the smalest most elementary particle, we will always make aproximations. And even if we find the basic rules to the univers its going to be a long time before we get to computing power to simulate large systems from "infinitely" small particles.

      Of course maybe cellular automata model is a little closser the real world. But the aproximation we have to make is worst. In every iteration of these simulations we make a small error. These error add with time so that if we simulate something for more than a few seconds we need have a result that is far from reality. Algebraic solutions dont have that cummulative error problem.



      P.S. I have to admit I haven't read Wolfram's book or Barabási`s book because I was lacking free time. So I hope I am getting the idea of these theories right. Tell me if I don't make sense.

    4. Re:The New Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Algebraic solutions dont have that cummulative error problem.
      Yes they do. That's why we can't predict the weather for more than about 5 days into the future.
    5. Re:The New Science by Madcapjack · · Score: 1
      thanx.

      it is better to say that this is an institute. there are no teaching positions at the santa fe institute. but everything else is quite true.

    6. Re:The New Science by Madcapjack · · Score: 1
      I think people are trying to get too much credit for this new area of research. This is not new, it has existed for a years. And the "Old Kind of Science" has a lot of merit too. The difference between the two is not a mathimatical discovery or a physical theory, it is computing power.

      i think you are basically right. the big difference is computation power. but then again I think more things have changed than that which have encouraged these approaches.

    7. Re:The New Science by buswolley · · Score: 1

      in my enthusiasm i overstated my knowledge of santafe.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    8. Re:The New Science by Madcapjack · · Score: 1
      don't worry about it.

      ( :

    9. Re:The New Science by andr0meda · · Score: 2, Interesting



      It seems to me that most of the dynamics and mechanics of multi-agent networking behaviour are closely related to the structure they are confined to - and by structure I mean the physical implementation constraints of the working model - more so than what it is the agents themselves do, associated with a certain probability density function.

      I've done some research in Neural Networks and I was amazed by the importance of the dimensionality of the network. There is a subfield in NN's that tries to generate appropriate networks for appropriate computing tasks. Still the difference between real neurons and neural networks, is that the first one has an analog clock, while the second one has at least a discretized clock per node, if not per layer or for the whole cell. Also the importance of having a feedback or recurency can make all the difference in the right / wrong places.

      I have the feeling - but could not proove this yet - that a dynamic combination of local optima searches and global optima searching leads to self-modifications to the structure in which the agents live, in such a way that the structure suits the needs of the original fitness function, which desribes the problem that we are trying to solve. Since the fitness function itself is a variant in time in most problems, it is logical to assume that the networks are never in a static state, so global optima searching will modify the network constantly, while local optima searching will try to exploit network capabilities best.

      Seems like interesting material, I'll have to check out this book!

      --
      With great power comes great electricity bills.
    10. Re:The New Science by DancingSword · · Score: 1

      Firstly:

      of the emerging science of complexity
      Damn funny, that...

      Secondly, it was in New Scientist, years ago ( paper edition ) where it was noted that each dimension of complexity is equivalent to about an order-of-magnitude increase in detail: Having neurons ( synthetic neural-net ) that stimulate other neurons, only, in one system, and having neurons-that-stimulate and neurons-that-suppress in a second system, the first system would require 10x~100x ( IIRC, it actually may have been a factor of 10 000 ) as many neurons to get the job done, as the second.

      Interestingly, our neurons communicate by stimulative synapses, by suppressive synapses, by pattern-of-signal, and by nitrous-oxide diffusion ( as well as possibly electrical conduction ), so the mere 100 000 000 000 neurons we're born with
      ( with ~100 synapses, and ~1000 dendrites on each one, +/- an order-of-magnitude, in short a stunning quantity of connections )
      can accomplish as much as many-more of a less-dimensionally-deep neural-net...

      And that is boggling, but the principle, that each extra ( necessary ) dimension removes the need for a quantum-order-of-magnitude of detail-level-things, holds reasonably well...
      ... is elegant, and very useful ( try simplifying your business/processes/anything this way... 'The 7 Habits..' does this, unconsciously... )

      PS, here's the link from above, clickable, for your incconvenience:
      http://www.santafe.edu/

      "The Santa Fe Institute is a private, non-profit, multidisciplinary research and education center, founded in 1984. Since its founding SFI has devoted itself to creating a new kind of scientific research community, pursuing emerging science."

      "Operating as a small, visiting institution, SFI seeks to catalyze new collaborative, multidisciplinary projects that break down the barriers between the traditional disciplines, to spread its ideas and methodologies to other individuals and encourage the practical applications of its results."

      Worthy intention, 't seems...

      --
      Messages to/for me ( in me journal )
    11. Re:The New Science by Madcapjack · · Score: 1
      I have the feeling - but could not proove this yet - that a dynamic combination of local optima searches and global optima searching leads to self-modifications to the structure in which the agents live, in such a way that the structure suits the needs of the original fitness function, which desribes the problem that we are trying to solve. Since the fitness function itself is a variant in time in most problems, it is logical to assume that the networks are never in a static state, so global optima searching will modify the network constantly, while local optima searching will try to exploit network capabilities best.

      I'm sorry. but could you clarify? What you are saying seems to be interesting, but I'm not sure I understand it. thanks

    12. Re:The New Science by Madcapjack · · Score: 1

      of the emerging science of complexity Damn funny, that.. mod this up, folks. he's identified a pun!

  9. In the Foundation series... by DaBj · · Score: 4, Interesting
    We know how people act individually, and yet we can't extrapolate the behavior of entire societies from this.
    ...Asimov argues (yes I know it's "just" SciFi) that you need an overwhelmingly large amount of "individuals" to extrapolate the behaviour of
    "societies", and you don't even have to know how the individuals act individually.

    I agree with him, we knew how the solarsystem (society)worked long before we knew how atoms (individuals) worked.

    You cannot use the knowledge of individuals to analyze society, just as you cannot use the knowledge of society to analyze individuals.
    If you want to know how society works, study society, not individuals.

    These are just my opinions though.

    (Don't call me redundant if somebody else wrote something similar while I wrote this =) )
    --
    "GNU's not Unix....it's Linux" / Kami "kokamomi" Petersen
    1. Re:In the Foundation series... by 1984 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Your suggestion is interesting:

      You cannot use the knowledge of individuals to analyze society, just as you cannot use the knowledge of society to analyze individuals.

      It's also -- forgive me for saying -- a little old-fashioned. It implies that there's a complete break between the individual and the society of which that individual is a part. One must have nothing to with the other. Given that every action by every individual has an impact in the society (however small) this seems unlikely. Like air in a room, the overall behaviour of the system will not be based on the behaviour of one gas molecule, but the system is still just an aggregation of gas molecules.

      Might well be that it's of more practical value to study the two separately. Going from mass and electrical charge to "how to build a nice car" might be a long and twisty road. It's probably easier to model it with math that might be a little crass, but gets the job done. But it doesn't mean mass and charge have nothing to do with what the car is made of.

    2. Re:In the Foundation series... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...Asimov argues (yes I know it's "just" SciFi) that you need an overwhelmingly large amount of "individuals" to extrapolate the behaviour of "societies", and you don't even have to know how the individuals act individually. [...] I agree with him,

      With all due respect to Asimov (who I don't think believed it himself), the theory is a load of crap and really is just fantasy. History proves over and over that single individuals can make a world-changing difference. Would the mongols have taken over asia with Gengis Kahn? Doubtful. Would Europe have been carved up the way it was without Hitler? Again, doubtful.

      And hell, what if Lincoln had not been elected President? We might have TWO "United States of Americas" occupying our current continent. I can't even imagine what the world would be like with a divided US. And how long would it have taken to free the slaves in the Southern US?

      I mean, you can go on and on. What if Lee Harvey Oswald had missed? What if what's-his-name didn't get assassinated, causing WW/I? What if Ghandi hadn't been born?

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    3. Re:In the Foundation series... by OldBus · · Score: 1

      Asimov suspected (in the introduction to one of his books?) that it was chaos that would probably be the undoing of 'psychohistory', i.e. the individuals you mentioned would have a 'butterfly effect' on history. I have just ordered the book and one of the things I am interested in is if the science of networks offers some insights that allow you to say something about these kind of systems that are not always subject to "but chaos means we can't say."

    4. Re:In the Foundation series... by DaBj · · Score: 1
      Might well be that it's of more practical value to study the two separately.

      Maybe I should have been clearer in my statement saying "You cannot use...".

      The complexity that arise from trying to analyze a "macro situation" with a "micro theory" becomes so unwieldy and overwhelming that it is more practical to pretend that there is an uncrossable barrier between the two.
      --
      "GNU's not Unix....it's Linux" / Kami "kokamomi" Petersen
    5. Re:In the Foundation series... by 3am · · Score: 1


      I agree with him, we knew how the solarsystem (society)worked long before we knew how atoms (individuals) worked.

      You cannot use the knowledge of individuals to analyze society, just as you cannot use the knowledge of society to analyze individuals.
      If you want to know how society works, study society, not individuals.


      Ugh. Please intelligently explain to me how a system of components following well understood rules cannot be studied based on the behavior of the components. If you care to mention how cases like the 3-body problem introduce chaos into the behavior of the system and make it impossible to predict based on observation, please tell me why this difficulty makes it not intellectually worthwhile to study an observed cross-discipline phenomenon. Also, what should be done in cases like physics where the extremely accurate but incompatible theories of quantum mechanics and general relativity describe the macro and micro scale?

      --

      A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
    6. Re:In the Foundation series... by Mac+Degger · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funnily enough, there's still this unresolved break between quatum theory and relativety...so who knows? He might have a valid point :)

      --
      -- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
    7. Re:In the Foundation series... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      What if Lee Harvey Oswald had missed?
      He did miss, didn't he? The bullet that killed JFK came from in front of him.

      What if what's-his-name didn't get assassinated, causing WW/I?
      Some other pretext would have been found for starting it. WWI was not about this assassination - it was about the giant empires that existed at the time that needed war to keep themselves going.
    8. Re:In the Foundation series... by cygnusx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I totally agree with you when you say, History proves over and over that single individuals can make a world-changing difference. But --

      > And hell, what if Lincoln had not been elected President? ..
      > What if Ghandi hadn't been born?

      The truth is, no one knows. Just as psychohistory was largely statistical, human societies are non-linear. Individual humans ("heroes") do come in, do act as inflection points -- but it is not as if other inflection points could not have existed.

      Lincoln's opponent could have risen to the occasion as well. Many historians argue that India would have become free, Gandhi or not, because Britain was much too weak after WWII to deal with the "restive natives" (not all Indians were non-violent, a good many that were sentenced were called "seditionists" then, and almost certainly would be called freedom-fighters^W terrorists today).

      Social behavior in the 1900s middle-east was pretty predictable: who in the middle of it would have predicted Kemal Atatürk? Yet, the really interesting thing is, given the almost-repeating patterns common to non-linear systems, how what will Turkey evolve into a hundred years from now? (e.g. Now a pro-Islamic party has been voted in there. Is this a major inflection or something that'll be damped out in no time? again, no one knows...)

      > With all due respect to Asimov (who I don't think believed it himself

      You are right, Asimov used it simply as one of the building blocks of a good yarn. Like the 3 laws of robotics. (In fact, in Forward the Foundation, written in the late 80s (or early 90s?), contains references to 'achaotic equations' he had to dream up because he could bear not acknowledging the growing body of evidence that the future is essentially non-linear).

    9. Re:In the Foundation series... by clintp · · Score: 2, Insightful
      History proves over and over that single individuals can make a world-changing difference.

      If you were to read carefully, Hari makes the point that an individual does make no difference in the history of the Empire. The role that the indivudal plays in history can be predicted, but the individual to fill it (and when it's filled) doesn't really matter.

      Even Hari was just filling a role. In Hari's case he was selectively bred for over a millenia by the Robots. His role was important but exactly why and what effect he would have, Daneel couldn't fathom. They bred him because long-term planning for humanity was just beyond the grasp of Robots.

      Had Hitler never arrived, maybe Stalin would have gone rampaging through Europe. If Lincoln had not been president, another Unionist might have fallen into his place. If Lee Harvey Oswald had missed, maybe JFK would have died of drug overdoses. If Caesar hadn't been born, perhaps another with his ambition would have eventually become Dictator and Emperor. And so on.

      Hari's larger point being that Stalin, Hitler, Lincoln, and Gandhi would all have been unimportant anyway. Even a figure whose impact was as dramatic as The Mule didn't really throw off the predictions of psychohistory by much. The Plan compensated even for him -- and he was completely unforseen.

      100 or 200 years is a myopic view of history. Larger factors like nationalism, resource pressures, population expansion, steady trends in technology, industrialism, and so on drive history -- not individuals. Taking the longer view, psychohistory (acting in hindsight) may have predicted that near 100 BCE a large seafaring empire covering the entire Mediterranian, with effective military technology, efficient government structure, rigid social classes, and a strong military influence over government would have risen. It might not have been Roman, but should have happened anyway. It might have predicted factors which would cause the Empire to fall, and the feudalism which took hold shortly thereafter; inevitably the nation-states that arose out of the fuedalism would colonize to relief resource pressures; and so on...
      --
      Get off my lawn.
    10. Re:In the Foundation series... by Alyeska · · Score: 1
      History proves over and over that single individuals can make a world-changing difference.

      It wasn't the individuals who made the difference, per se. It was the society reacting to those individuals.

      Basic tenet of sociology is that humans seek leaders, heros, and villains of various kinds -- people who cause a large segment of the society to engage in a common social behavior.

      What Asimov was saying is that we don't have to understand Oswald's specifics to understand that under given conditions, individuals attack their leaders; and, in fact, we can better predict social behavior by ignoring Oswald's specifics and just looking for other patterns in society.

      If you don't believe this premise, ask any advertiser who puts billions of dollars into researching aggregate behavior and demographics. That research always pays for itself....

    11. Re:In the Foundation series... by Gabrill · · Score: 1

      Asimov speculated that it took more than a suitable person to fill roles like Lincoln and Ceasar. In his books, it took entire societies being ready and needful of such figureheads.

      Interestingly enough, Seldon's own plan became hypocritical after the 2nd Foundationers took over "management" of history in Foundation and Empire. According to Seldon's published theories, there needed to be no management for history to conclude the formation of a 2nd Empire. After the Plan was re-established (the Mule and aftermath), the 2nd Foundationers would still meddle in the affairs of mortals.

      The Mule DID throw the plan completely off, and Seldon's plan and even the 2nd Foundation would have been unable to survive the Mule intact if it weren't for the planet consciousness of Gaia stepping into the picture in Foundation's Edge (the fourth book of the "Trilogy"), much like the 2nd Foundationers were trying to do themselves.

      Actually, I think Foundation's Edge was Asimov's revision of his view of the world of foundation. In the trilogy, his books pointed toward a class-based rulership of the masses based on selected elite mind-bending super-men, not totally unlike George Lucas's universe, actually. Foundations edge revised that to become a collective consciousness where everyone shares in the control by their needs and their connection with said "collective consciousness". To wit: Gaia for a single planet and Galaxia as the entire galaxy (not just the people) being psychicly linked.

      And all in all, Asimov's entire message from all his Robot books and Foundation books and everything else was: "Can't we all just get along?"

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    12. Re:In the Foundation series... by dunkstr · · Score: 1

      I agree that from a empirical perspective it makes sense to study large systems as they are to understand them on a basic level. I disagree that ignoring the individual constituents is a wise course of action.

      In a thermodynamics course I am taking we don't use the conventional approach - starting from large empirical observations and generalizing empirically. Instead, we start with basic assumptions from quantum mechanics and build upwards to show that thermal physics has a mathematical foundation. This is an example of a well-understood system.

      It is important to look at general principles to get preliminary clues of its behavior, but if you can't connect it to the individuals I don't think you can truly say you understand it.

      While many systems exhibit complex 'emergent behavior'; I think the key to understanding large systems is building it up from smaller ones.

    13. Re:In the Foundation series... by f97tosc · · Score: 1

      100 or 200 years is a myopic view of history. Larger factors like nationalism, resource pressures, population expansion, steady trends in technology, industrialism, and so on drive history -- not individuals. Taking the longer view, psychohistory (acting in hindsight) may have predicted that near 100 BCE a large seafaring empire covering the entire Mediterranian, with effective military technology, efficient government structure, rigid social classes, and a strong military influence over government would have risen.

      Well, we seem to agree that on the time scales of hundreds if not thousands of years the history of man is essentially chaotic and thus impossible to predict.

      Personally I think this is true for larger time scales as well. Events like nuclear war, or Earth colliding with a big comet could change everything and cannot be predicted.

      For anyone who thinks differently, the burden of proof is on you to make correct predictions for tens of thousands of years into the future. Saying that in hindsight something was inevitible will not do.

      Tor

    14. Re:In the Foundation series... by clintp · · Score: 1

      I predict that population will increase, technology will become more refined, space travel will become more of a focus as the result of both of those. Oh yeah, and I firmly predict an ice age in the next 10K years.

      Okay. Predictions are in. It's *your* job to prove me wrong. Good luck. :)

      --
      Get off my lawn.
    15. Re:In the Foundation series... by f97tosc · · Score: 1

      I predict that population will increase, technology will become more refined, space travel will become more of a focus as the result of both of those. Oh yeah, and I firmly predict an ice age in the next 10K years

      Seems reasonable. But not inevitible; populations are decreasing in industrial countries and could start doing so elsewhere as well. And then we have my earlier examples of comet collisions and nuclear war, they could happen and put an end to it all.

      Okay. Predictions are in. It's *your* job to prove me wrong. Good luck. :)

      I think you missed my point; I don't claim to be able to make these predictions - I think it is impossible. The only way to tell is to wait for a couple of thousands of years and see what happens. :)

      If you consistently make correct and useful predictions then I will start to listen. Call me skeptic, but getting it right once in a very general prediction is not enough for me.

      Tor

    16. Re:In the Foundation series... by drjzzz · · Score: 1
      "We know how people act individually,"...

      Do "we"? Seems that psychologists and psychiatrists would be out of work.
      ..."and yet we can't extrapolate the behavior of entire societies from this."

      We can't? Crowd behavior may be better understood than individual behavior. Example: an individual's response to "fire!" is less predictable than a crowd in a theater.
      --
      to err is human, to forgive is divine, to forget is... umm...
    17. Re:In the Foundation series... by Zaak · · Score: 1

      The complexity that arise from trying to analyze a "macro situation" with a "micro theory" becomes so unwieldy and overwhelming that it is more practical to pretend that there is an uncrossable barrier between the two.

      But what if we discovered general principles which would allow us to easily extrapolate macro behavior from known micro behavior? It would cause a revolution in all branches of science.

      My personal opinion is that this particular line of research will be like fractals, NP-completeness, complexity, etc in that it will make a big splash, but in the end will only make a small contribution to our total knowledge of the universe. But you never know.

      TTFN

    18. Re:In the Foundation series... by Madcapjack · · Score: 1
      ..Asimov argues (yes I know it's "just" SciFi) that you need an overwhelmingly large amount of "individuals" to extrapolate the behaviour of "societies", and you don't even have to know how the individuals act individually. [...] I agree with him,

      for that matter, Seldon violates his own principal, because he single-handedly does change the course of the galaxy, though not completely, of course. and could psychohistory have predicted that?

    19. Re:In the Foundation series... by Madcapjack · · Score: 1
      Interestingly enough, Seldon's own plan became hypocritical after the 2nd Foundationers took over "management" of history in Foundation and Empire. According to Seldon's published theories, there needed to be no management for history to conclude the formation of a 2nd Empire. After the Plan was re-established (the Mule and aftermath), the 2nd Foundationers would still meddle in the affairs of mortals

      for that matter, Seldon violates his own principal, because he single-handedly does change the course of the galaxy, though not completely, of course. and could psychohistory have predicted that?

    20. Re:In the Foundation series... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interestingly enough, Seldon's own plan became hypocritical after the 2nd Foundationers took over "management" of history in Foundation and Empire. According to Seldon's published theories, there needed to be no management for history to conclude the formation of a 2nd Empire.


      Yeah, according to his published theories, which said that the First Foundation was all that was necessary to change the course of history. In reality, the Second Foundation was also needed.


      After the Plan was re-established (the Mule and aftermath), the 2nd Foundationers would still meddle in the affairs of mortals.


      Right, because psychohistory is only predictive. It might predict, for example, that the Second Empire on its own would eventually crumble, without the active intervention of agents such as the Second Foundation.
    21. Re:In the Foundation series... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you consistently make correct and useful predictions then I will start to listen.


      The topic under discussion was predictions over multi-hundred or -thousand year timescales. What does he have to do to get you to listen, unfreeze you every millenium to say "Told ya so!"?
    22. Re:In the Foundation series... by Ytrew+Q.+Uiop · · Score: 1

      History proves over and over that single individuals can make a world-changing difference.

      That notion is called the 'great man theory' of history. I'm not at all convinced that it's true. Certainly, individuals can affect the world on a small timescale, but would similar events have happened over the next few hundred years, regardless of the individuals involved? Perhaps. I'm inclined to think so.

      Would the mongols have taken over asia with Gengis Kahn?

      Probably. There was a will for unity among the clans; it was finally filled by Temujin (Genghis Khan).

      Would Europe have been carved up the way it was without Hitler?

      In some fashion, probably. The so-called "war guilt" clause of the WWI surrender ("it's all Germany's fault") was at least as much a cause of WWII as Hitler. Add to that the impossible reparations demands, and suddenly you've got a nation of poor, angry people who think the rest of the world hates them. That's a good recipe for war right there.

      And hell, what if Lincoln had not been elected President? We might have TWO "United States of Americas" occupying our current continent.

      Or your states might have merged later on.

      As one of my friends pointed out, one of biggest effects on history has been ... weather. Countless battles were won or lost because of fog, storms, or frozen harbours. Bad harvests often trigger war, because people have no food to eat or trade. People often get sick in unexpected weather. Tornados, floods, hurricanes and hailstorms can wipe out cities even today.

      Victor Hugo argues in _Les Miserables_ that Napolean lost the battle of Waterloo because the mud made the bombs land softly without exploding properly. If it had been sunny, he claims, Napolean would have carried the day. (I'm not sure I agree, but the notion is entertaining.)

      What if Lee Harvey Oswald had missed?

      Or what if it had rained, and the parade was cancelled?

      At most, you would have had a different man (Kennedy) representing the will of the American people. And if he had failed to represent the will of the people in a blatant enough way, you would have replaced him. Democracy especially doesn't depend on it's figureheads.

      What if what's-his-name didn't get assassinated, causing WW/I?

      Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria was killed by a Serbian terrorist. If they hadn't killed him, they would have killed someone else.

      Austria was going to depose the Serbian government back then, but Russia said "leave Serbia alone". Germany said, "stay out of it, Russia". Then all hell broke loose. When the dust cleared, everyone else decided that the whole sordid mess was "all Germany's fault", and tried to get Germany to pay for all the war expenses. This bankrupt Germany, and led directly to WW/II.

      There was a lot of conflict in Serbia way back then. WWI was supposed to resolve that situation once and for all ("the war to end all wars").

      Back in 2000, or so the UN deposed the Serbian government. There had been a lot of conflict in Serbia right before that, too. So much for "the war to end all wars".

      What if Ghandi hadn't been born?

      India would have remained a British colony until some other person protested as loudly as Ghandi did. Are you suggesting that in 200 or so years, it wouldn't have become independant?

      I submit that environmental forces shape history as much, or more, than any human individual. What if the black plague hadn't led to a manpower shortage in Europe? Would the industrial revolution have happened anyway? What if the black plague (or another plague) had killed all of Europe? Who would have moved in to fill the gap? After how long?

      Points to ponder.
      --
      Ytrew

    23. Re:In the Foundation series... by Gabrill · · Score: 1
      Right, because psychohistory is only predictive. It might predict, for example, that the Second Empire on its own would eventually crumble, without the active intervention of agents such as the Second Foundation.

      The empire DID collapse without interference from the 2nd Foundation. The Great Sack of Trantor was the first time 2nd Foundationers ever influenced the outside world. Hehe I just happen to be rereading the series at the moment.

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
  10. Sociology studies the behavior of entire societies by Dr.+Sinistaar · · Score: 3, Informative

    "We know how people act individually, and yet we can't extrapolate the behavior of entire societies from this."

    There just happens to be an entire discipline dedicated to exploring the behavior of entire societies. It's called sociology.

    Within society, there's an entire sub field that's been studying social networks for years. Things like how information is spread, how people get jobs, how diseases like AIDS spread, all have been explored using social network analysis.

    If you want a mathematical description of "tipping points", take a look at Mark Granovetter's work on threshold models of collective behavior. Gladwell's book is based his work (though he only references Granovetter's work on how people get jobs).

  11. How? by jhouserizer · · Score: 4, Funny

    How does information spread through society?

    Rumors.

    1. Re:How? by buswolley · · Score: 1

      memes.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    2. Re:How? by Shamanin · · Score: 1

      "How does information spread through society?"

      through Slashdot, of course.

      --
      come on fhqwhgads
    3. Re:How? by jhouserizer · · Score: 1

      Actually, when I said "rumors" was the way in which information spreads through society, it was both a joke and a real comment.

      I think if you want to understand paterns in a society, you need to understand how rumors work - especially the way "truth" changes (loss of info, gain of false info, exageration of certain points of view, etc.) as it is passed from person to person.

      Even in non-human groups, this is true - think about a herd of elk. If one elk standing on the outside thinks that it smells the presence of another animal in the area, it will snort and/or move into the herd a bit. This creates a ripple affect through the herd that may or may not trigger a stampede, based on the way the other elk interpret the actions of the first.

      I'm not a psychologist or anthropologist or behavioralist, but I think it's obvious that there can be no reasonable study of how a society acts without having understanding of how perceptions of the same information varies from person to person, and of how it is therefore 'retransmited' to others.

      Anyway, I'd have to say that most if not all of what I know is complete hear-say, including what school teachers have taught me.

  12. Re:Sociology studies the behavior of entire societ by Madcapjack · · Score: 1
    If you want a mathematical description of "tipping points", take a look at Mark Granovetter's work on threshold models of collective behavior. Gladwell's book is based his work (though he only references Granovetter's work on how people get jobs).

    could you give a more thorough description of sociological threshold models? thanks

  13. Really. by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

    We know a great deal about how atoms interact, but we aren't so sure about how to combine them to make a 'big picture' of matter.

    Uh... you mean... uh... chemistry?

    'Cause if you're talking about some other big picture of matter, fill us in.

    --

    There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    1. Re:Really. by DontPanicMMH · · Score: 1

      The validity of a scientific theory is measured by its ability to predict a behavior of the system under observation. The family of scientific theories that describe chemistry have excellent predicitve ability over a wide range of behaviors; however, these theories offer very little predicitve powers when it comes to predicting behavior for systems that spontaneously increase in organization (such as biological systems). 'Chemistry' can explain a great deal about the behavior of biological systems, but it doesn't offer much for describing that peculiar ability of biological systems to grow and increase in complexity.

      I assume that is the 'big picture' referred to in the post.

  14. Tipping point = strange attractor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    According to chaos theory, infinitely small changes can cause ripples that echo through iterative equations so that there are infinite number of "strange attractors" near which all other results of the equation are, as long as you keep re-iterating. With infinite re-iterations, there are infinite strange attractors. We can only go forward and see where the road takes us, because it is not possible to take into account everything, unless you accept the fact that the whole universe is an equation, re-iterating itself infinitely... oh damn, I don't know what I'm writing. Shoot me!

  15. Please do not mix sociopolitics with physics by October_30th · · Score: 2, Insightful
    similarity between Bose-Einstein condensation and economic monopoly

    Please stop drawing analogues between socioeconomical politics and physics.

    Wasn't it enough that darwinism was used to promote fascism and ultraliberal capitalism and Einstein's relativity was used to promote moral relativism. All out of context, of course, but still bought by the people and - even worse - the politicians.

    --
    The owls are not what they seem
    1. Re:Please do not mix sociopolitics with physics by Just_Tom · · Score: 1

      Please stop drawing analogues between socioeconomical politics and physics.

      But that's the very point of this book... that if you look at normally separate fields in a certain way (in this case, forming networks of relationships) you can use common tools to analyse them.

      What you're saying is almost like saying "stop using statistics in chemistry and football". Why should we, when statistics can tell us so much in both areas?

    2. Re:Please do not mix sociopolitics with physics by bankman · · Score: 5, Informative

      Please stop drawing analogues between socioeconomical politics and physics.

      If you had read the book (pp.93) and maybe this paper, you would have noticed that Bose-Einstein condensation is used to mathematically explain monopolies in the economic network. So, the analogy is a) explained and b) may be even valid.

      From the book: "It is, simply, that in some networks the winner can take all. Just as in a Bose-Einstein condensate all particles crowd into the lowest energy level, leaving the rest of the energy levels unpopulated, in some networks the fittest node could theoretically grab all the links, leaving none for the rest of the nodes. The winner takes all."

      Just my 2 Eurocents.

      --
      I feel so sig.
    3. Re:Please do not mix sociopolitics with physics by Madcapjack · · Score: 1

      There is a danger that any social science will be misused by politicians or academics outside the field. In fact this has been historically the case. I sympathize with your point; however, it doesn't make this kind of science untrue.

    4. Re:Please do not mix sociopolitics with physics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you know that the whole idea behind game theory is a mix of socioeconomical politics and math. If we group info in to "subjects" but agree on the idea that all info can be linked together, then rightfuly so people are going to mix physics and politics and bio and ethics

    5. Re:Please do not mix sociopolitics with physics by SandsOfEarth · · Score: 1

      See also "The Winner-Take-All Society: Why the Few at the Top Get so Much More than the Rest of Us" by Robert H. Frank and Philip J. Cook. This is a great book explaining some of the forces that shape our society.

    6. Re:Please do not mix sociopolitics with physics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His analogy sucks, but the similarities in the mathematics in the fields are real. Game theory and Economics ....

    7. Re:Please do not mix sociopolitics with physics by Scott+Carnahan · · Score: 1

      I tend to agree here with the grandparent about not mixing physics with sociopolitics.

      While it may be poor judgment to say that sociopolitics and quantum physical systems exhibit the same behavior, it is often valid to say that they can be treated with similar mathematical models. Sometimes, observed phenomena in one area can provide insight into the behavior of the other, even if they are as disparate as the two aforementioned fields.

      This Bose Einstein example itself seems ridiculous to me. I don't see the lowest state as "winning over and monopolizing over" all the other states. What happens is that the other states can take in only so many particles.

      The grandparent never mentioned any sort of "winning over and monopolizing over" action. The analogy was on the level of using a mathematical model. A Bose-Einstein condensate happens in systems with indistinguishable, non-excluding particles (i.e. they exhibit Bose statistics). It is necessary for the thermal energy in the system to be low enough that most or all of the particles settle into the lowest energy state. Your description is poor because other states can accept arbitrarily many particles (up to certain macroscopic constraints, e.g. gravity), and the reason for condensation is that it is not energetically favorable for the particles to jump to those levels.

      Although the phrase, "winner take all," is a bit overused, there does not seem to be any evidence that the author of the book seeks to anthropomorphize bosons.

      --
      "Your notation sucks!" -- Serge Lang (1927-2005)
  16. Don't know how to build networks? by Gabe+Garza · · Score: 1

    We don't know how to build large informational networks? I'd say the internet is a smashing success....

    1. Re:Don't know how to build networks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The dinosaurs were also a smashing success, until sumthin bigger and smashier happened.

      The internet is evolving. How much better would it be if better understood?

      And success relative to what goals?

      Spam delivery, information availability to all on the planet, or pr0n distro?

  17. Snow Crash... by airrage · · Score: 3, Informative

    I liked Stephenson's idea of information as a virus. The "tipping point" was when the virus had reached a critical mass and became part of the basic store of information. Some info-virii, like Ford is better than Chevy doesn't infect enough people to tip society one way or the other. Other virii like the Earth revoles around the Sun, has infected basically the entire planet, and as such is passed from generation to generation.

    I really don't think there isn't much complexity that can't be explained by the mere fact that we are all actually living on top of a Giant's head

    --
    "This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
    1. Re:Snow Crash... by Greyjack · · Score: 1

      The concept of memes didn't exactly originate with Stephenson.

  18. A question of assumptions by dlr03 · · Score: 1
    I remember a computer network class where some mathematical models were exposed. We would see at what point a protocol was the most efficient under the assumption that traffic demand was regular.

    It turns out the all the mathematical deductions weren't valid, since observed network traffic consists of bursts of emission, instead of regular streams. So the author suggested that a whole different theory needed to be developped to understand networks better.

    So I think assuming a Poisson distribution falls in the 'theoric' branch... or does it?

  19. In other news... by pVoid · · Score: 2, Funny

    Bose and Einstein are added to the black list of the OSS/linux zealot guild...

  20. Where's Hari Seldon when you need him? by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2, Informative
    We know how people act individually, and yet we can't extrapolate the behavior of entire societies from this.
    I guess it's time to invent psychohistory... Where's Hari Seldon when you need him?
  21. Read this book about six months ago.. by arudloff · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The author seems to make a claim, then dwell on it for entirely too long -- boring you to tears. If the book was rewritten, I imagine it'd be half as long, if not shorter. Honestly, how long does it take to explain the kevin bacon theory? He seems to think its profound that the "degrees of seperation" are getting smaller as we become more interconnected. I appreciate the effort, but it's common friggin' sense. All in all? An interesting read if all your other books are finished and theres nothing on TV. Even in that scenerio, I'd still probably end up reading (okay okay, looking at the pictures) in Wolfram's book instead ;)

    1. Re:Read this book about six months ago.. by 0tim0 · · Score: 1
      The author seems to make a claim, then dwell on it for entirely too long -- boring you to tears. If the book was rewritten, I imagine it'd be half as long, if not shorter.

      I'm with you. This book should have been a 10 page paper. I kept thinking there was going to be a big revelation. But there wasn't. He just kept rehashing the same thing over:

      If you want to bring down the air traffic system, it would be more effective to take out a couple of big airports rather than a couple of small ones.

      If you want to take down the internet, it would be easier to do so by removing the more heavily trafficked nodes than the undertrafficked, small nodes.

      And on and on...

      The first couple of chapters were interesting, but even those were inflated with historical digresssions.

      --t

    2. Re:Read this book about six months ago.. by Tetsujin28 · · Score: 1
      If you want to bring down the air traffic system, it would be more effective to take out a couple of big airports rather than a couple of small ones.

      If you want to take down the internet, it would be easier to do so by removing the more heavily trafficked nodes than the undertrafficked, small nodes.

      If you want to take out the movie industry, it would be more effective to take out Kevin Bacon.

      --
      - - - -
      The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.
  22. Related topics by notfancy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I won't research for you, but if you're interested, the preprints archive at LANL has a lot of relevant theory. Basically, the current research is trying to come with a unified framework for so-called "phase transitions" in stochastic discrete processes. One of the most studied problems is the transition between "easy" and "hard" problems in 3-SAT (three-satisfiability). Brian Hayes has a very readable article about this phenomenon, with references. The authority in this field seems to be Gabriel Istrate.

    The emergence of the giant component in random networks is a mature field of research, of course pioneered by Erdös, and with players of the likes of Don Knuth and Doron Zeilberger.

    From a mathematical standpoint, Graph Theory per se is not really complicated, what actually is is the asymptotic analysis of stochastic processes.

    HTH,
    Matas

    1. Re:Related topics by mbaranow · · Score: 1

      Just off the top of my head here:

      If you had a "scale-free" network, AFAIK you have an unlimited amount of independent computational nodes, most NP problems would be trivial to solve in polynomial time. Imagine, just spawn a new node for each possible solution to the problem. Each node can check if its solution is valid in polynomial time.

      This is similiar how genetic algorithms should be executed. Each packet of genetic information in such an algorithm is a point in a very large state space you're searching for optimal solutions. Each mutation is a random jump around that state pace, and the fitness function tries to seek a local optimal point.

      Except in the 'real-world' this algorithm is not executed linearly, but concurrently. Each animal is an concurrent node able to spawn an arbitrary amount of new nodes.

      Your computational power then grows exponentially, not the problem. (Sounds like in mother Russia... eh, not worth it).

      How to factor prime numbers really quickly:
      advance nano-technology to the point where your nano-pc is able to construct duplicates of themselves when you issue a fork() command.

      Like I said, talking out of my ass.

  23. Excellent summary by stratjakt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    BTW, what's this book about?

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  24. another "science of networks" book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    If "Linked" sounds interesting, check out "Six Degrees; the Science of a Connected Age" by Duncan J Watts. Watts covers the nuts-&-bolts of fractal networks much better than Barabasi, plus he's a lot less conceited & a better read to boot.

    S/N:R

  25. Small Worlds by Duncan Watts by joelparker · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I found a terrific book on general ideas of network connectivity graph theory-- very creative, written for smart readers who are comfortable with some math. He's got interesting ideas that can be relevant to many fields: biology, P2P apps, distributed trust systems, DNS, and more. Highly recommended.

    Amazon link

    From the Amazon reviews:

    Duncan Watts uses this intriguing phenomenon--colloquially called "six degrees of separation"--as a prelude to a more general exploration: under what conditions can a small world arise in any kind of network?

    The networks of this story are everywhere: the brain is a network of neurons; organisations are people networks; the global economy is a network of national economies, which are networks of markets, which are in turn networks of interacting producers and consumers.

    Food webs, ecosystems, and the Internet can all be represented as networks, as can strategies for solving a problem, topics in a conversation, and even words in a language. Many of these networks, the author claims, will turn out to be small worlds.

  26. What is the question? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a place in bifurcation when diversity rapidly advances. In the formula:

    k=>0-4
    a= >0, 1
    a=k*a*(1-a)

    The diversity of (a) "tips" when the value of k is
    somewhere around 3.4 or something.

    But your question is not very clear to me. Many things have some measurable aspect that bifuractates. If you try to rephrase your question, I will try to rephrase an answer.

  27. possible in principle by Trepidity · · Score: 1

    This is true from a practical standpoint, but not necessarily true from a theoretical standpoint. It is, given enough knowledge, and barring too much non-deterministic misbehavior from quantum mechanics, to derive behaviors of larger systems from their constituent parts. However, it takes a lot of very careful calculations, and thus is usually infeasible, and is often prone to error. Thus, it's only used where it's both really absolutely necessary and where there's a lot of money available to fund the simulations. Thus only a few isolated things -- explosions of nuclear weapons, for example -- are simulated by individually modeling the constituent microscopic parts.

    Now with societies, this might be the only way to go. We don't really have enough examples of societies to be able to glean at a macroscopic level the abstract features of societies while not being tripped up by merely accidental and inconsequential features. Thus modeling individual behavior might give more insights. However, constructing such a model accurately is likely to be even more difficult than constructing an accurate model of a nuclear explosion, since people tend to behave in less predictable ways than atoms and electrons do.

  28. Interesting but...... by chickensdelight · · Score: 1

    If there was to be a big brake through in this feild then it would positive (and much of it is) there is also a down side. If some of the sciences that evolved from this were usefull in understanding how large groups of people behaved, then this extra information would be used to control us.

    1. Re:Interesting but...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...then this extra information would be used to control us.

      I will refuse to do what they want, no, wait they will know I have decided not to do it, but if I decide to do it but secretly know that I am not going to do it, they won't know that I am not going to do it - they have probably thought of this too, therefore, I will tell them I will do it, but make sure they think I am not really going to do it yet in my mind I will be doing it, althought the whole plan is not to do it!

      THE MACHINE CAN BE BEATEN!

    2. Re:Interesting but...... by c64cryptoboy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Many scale free distributions in user patterns have already been discovered (i.e. web pages against user visits -- a few popular sites like Amazon and Ebay, but lots of mediocre web sites like mine). You generally get a scale free distribution of transactions anytime people interact with one another in a way that they feel is advantageous (preferential). Even more interesting is when web usage becomes content becomes web usages becomes... etc. Such as Amazon's "Customers who bought this book also bought", or when Google's page rank become self reinforcing over time.

      --
      I put the 'fun' in fundamentalism
  29. OOPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, I'm tired. That should be:

    where a is a number greater than 0 and less than 1
    where k is a number greater than 0 and less than 4

    a=k*a*(1-a)

  30. TIA: the dark side of scale-free networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh that's already underway. DARPA's using scale-free networking principles to enhance Total Information Awareness (the better to track you with, my dear). See
    http://www.strategy-business.com/press/articl e/?ar t=9056282&pg=0 (reg req'd) for all the gory details.

    S/N:R

  31. Barabasi, Wolfram and all that. by missing_boy · · Score: 1, Informative
    I haven't read Barabasi's latest book (well, it's just out), but I've studied his previous book "Fractal Concepts in Surface Growth" (with H.E.Stanley) in some detail. This book made an enourmous contribution to the field of statistical physics, at least to it's popularity. I am approached by colleagues quite regularily that want to borrow the book, etc., although they are in completely different fields of physics. It is good for both undergraduate students and grads alike, and serves as a very good introduction to the field.

    Barabasi and co-author Albert are literarily inventing a new field of physics/math; I'm not even quite sure of what to call it. However, they are very much in touch with current research in the field, and their work is very timely (who else could tell you that the "degree of separation" on the web is 19 and not 6?)

    As for Wolfram, however, I cannot say the same. I've seen Wolfram present his book in a special seminar (but haven't read it), and my impression is this: he is an exceptionally bright guy, but not in touch with current research. Wolfram is able to explain a wide variety of fields within physics and mathematics with great confidence, and I would be the last to call him un-educated (no two-week crash course in particle physics on his behalf! Actually, I think he was the only grad-student that Richard Feynman supervised!). I realize that when you "invent paradigm-changing science", you will necessarily meet some opposition from other researchers, but Wolfram's problem is this: he had a good idea some 20 years ago (cellular automata), secluded himself in a room since then developing his idea (as well as various sales-pitches for Mathematica), and forgot to consult with the rest of the scientific community. I understand very well why he's being critizied by his peers.

    1. Re:Barabasi, Wolfram and all that. by Carter+Butts · · Score: 1
      Barabasi and co-author Albert are literarily inventing a new field of physics/math; I'm not even quite sure of what to call it. However, they are very much in touch with current research in the field, and their work is very timely (who else could tell you that the "degree of separation" on the web is 19 and not 6?)
      Not here, they're not. Search your local university library for "graph theory." See also my comment below regarding the tremendous body of extant literature in the field. Claiming that Linked reveals a "new science" is rather like claiming that Al Gore created the Internet....

      -Carter

  32. Re:Sociology studies the behavior of entire societ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sociology attempts to study societal behavior by empirical means. This is impossible if you assume humanity comes down to more than definable variables.

    Philosophy is the only way to make progress in understanding human behavior, but because post-modern thought equates rationality with empirical logic this is an increasingly scoff at field of thought.

    On the other hand, to assume that humanity has meaning (of any kind), is to assume more than cause-and-effect relationships. To disagree with this point leaves you in a state of nonexistance.

  33. Great Analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Kind of amusing with the individual and society analogy to computers and large networks. If you ask a person when no one is around about something you will get one answer but put him around a group of his peers and his answer changes because of peer pressure. Kind of amusing how this can be placed into computers as well. You have dominent members of society which form and shape it just like you do in the network community (Servers).

  34. Re:Sociology studies the behavior of entire societ by TerryAtWork · · Score: 1

    Yes but...

    I took two Sociology courses at Humber College and York University and both times my teachers and advanced students were ardent Marxists.

    There was no math to speak of either. I think Sociology is a bogus discipline designed to get communists into our school system.

    --
    It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
  35. The preaching continues by Zukix · · Score: 1

    I'm reading this at the moment. I'm a bit of junky for universality and complexity.

    Most of these books are journalistic endeavours indulging in overcooked analogies. They all drivel on - its like revelationary religious evangelism as each book includes the phrase "and suddenly I looked at X understanding its full Y for the first time" - be it chaos, complexity, self-organisation, wolfram, barabasi...

    Curious that these books including the damn Wolfram tome typically just rephrase computer science. It should have been called information science and then peeps might realise that its fundamental.

    Read 'em by all means but keep your scepticism until they actually say something useful.
    Zu

  36. Bah. You have an incorrect assumption. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We don't need to "really COMPLETELY understand the lower levels" to work at higher levels. Surgeons don't reason at the level of metabolic pathways. Architects don't work out the quantum chemistry of their concrete. You might remember gas laws from high school physics (PV=nRT) that gives good predictions for the behavior of a gas without mentioning the behavior of the constituent atoms.

    This field is difficult because it's new. Give us some time to have insights, build models, and teach them; only then can we get back to the state where everything is clear and obvious and research is a waste of time, money, and effort.

    No, I'm not bitter about being a grad student, why do you ask?

  37. I think it's only fair to say by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that society is not an entity, thus cannot be judged. Society is only a collection of individuals, nothing more.

  38. mathematical description of tipping points? by The+Locehiliosan · · Score: 2, Funny
    Is there a mathematical description of tipping points? Easy:

    - bill x .15 for good service
    - bill x .20 for great service
    - $.01 for crappy service

    --
    http://www.missionfaces.com/
  39. Emergence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Heard of emergent behaviours?

    This is behaviour that only arises through the complex interactions of many components, and it is not deducable from analysing a single component in isolation.

    OK, maybe collect these behaviours and look for similarities between components and emergent behaviours. But it cannot be determined analytically beforehand.

    Quite an intersting topic in relation to these network issues. Is Intelligence emergent etc.

    1. Re:Emergence by 3am · · Score: 1


      Heard of emergent behaviours?

      This is behaviour that only arises through the complex interactions of many components, and it is not deducable from analysing a single component in isolation.

      OK, maybe collect these behaviours and look for similarities between components and emergent behaviours. But it cannot be determined analytically beforehand.


      I've heard of it, but seen no real research nor read up on it in any more than a casual way. Frankly, even though I respect Wolfram, I don't buy into it as an explanation for all that exists. And based on my math background, it doesn't sound likely that this behavior can't be determined beforehand.

      Just because something is almost intractably complex doesn't mean it _cannot_ be determined beforehand.

      --

      A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
  40. 2,532 squared not 6,441,024 by brendanoconnor · · Score: 1

    The square of 2,532 is actually 6411024. The cube is 16232712768.

  41. mathematical description of tipping points by mrpastry · · Score: 1
    Is there a mathematical description of tipping points?

    Yep, catastrophe theory

    1. Re: mathematical description of tipping points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said that man. Tsk, how quickly we forget...

  42. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  43. Re:Sociology studies the behavior of entire societ by Alyeska · · Score: 1
    There just happens to be an entire discipline dedicated to exploring the behavior of entire societies. It's called sociology.

    And you've just agreed with author. Sociology doesn't study individuals. It studies flocks and swarms. Sociology does not study large numbers of individuals, then try to predict how those individuals will react socially. Instead, it looks for trends in societal behavior without much weight being given to the individual units.

  44. Barabasi ignores routing by mveloso · · Score: 1

    The book is good, but it doesn't get into the really hard stuff - how does something get from point A to point B in a loosely coupled network, or any network?

    His description of the neuron network in the brain, for example, talks about how some neurons link some parts of the brain with others, and that random links help the brain (and networks) function. But nowhere does he say how a signal actually gets from point A to point B - just that the loose coupling and random connections between brain areas make everything closer together.

    . Maybe he doesn't know? Maybe nobody knows? But the whole point of the book is "connect tightly at the micro level, connect the micro groups with their immediate neighbors, and connect each micro grouping randomly with other non-local micro groupings for better connectivity."

  45. Ok Encyclopedia Brown... here we go by cr@ckwhore · · Score: 0, Troll

    We understand how an individual computer works, but how to build large informational networks with computers is another thing entirely.

    Have you heard of this "internet" thing yet? Al Gore created it and all your friends are doing it.

    We know how people act individually, and yet we can't extrapolate the behavior of entire societies from this.

    Its called "demographics". Yep, you're part of it.

    How does information spread through society?

    People have been reading and writing for centuries now.

    One thing is abundantly clear: the more we know about how these things work, the better we'll be able to curb DDOS attacks, stop disease, and control economic failures

    Alright! Now that's my idea of a good time... I'd hate to come down with the flu, lose my stocks, and suffer a DDOS attack all on the same day. Oh, AIDS too? Even better.

    --
    Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
  46. new "science" of networks by briancnorton · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Calling it a "science" is sort of a misnomer. Sure there are people studying networks scientificly, but Linked is a lot of metaphors and comparisons rather than a quantitative or modelling approach. It runs in the same vein as Wolfram's ANKOS, in that they are both missing critical intermediaries needed to qualify them (to me) as a science. My studies have been in geography, which presents a whole different level of network behavior and construction. The book is good, but a little light on science.

    --

    People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.

  47. PSO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a book by Dr. Kennedy from purdue that studies things along these lines. I am over halfway done with it, and its excellent. Social intellegence is the basic gist, exhange of ideas/memes/data at the local level with very simple rules creating a global intellignce (dont flame me, thats just one general idea in the book). Another model they cover is the Axelrod Cultural Modal, which shows how complex problems can be solved via a social model via very simple rules.

    obligatory linkage:

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/textbooks/books ea rch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=51BG85LTOC&isbn=1558605 959&TXT=Y&itm=1

  48. Multi-Agent Systems + Evolutionary Computation by EMiniShark · · Score: 1

    Its funny you mention social structures and darwinian evolution. They go together nicely. I am part of research team at the University of Maryland (sorry, no public website) that is currently working on the emergence of social heirarchies, like centralized control (fascism) in multi-agent systems. And guess what we are using to direct the emergence? Genetic Programming.

  49. "We know how people act individually..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We do? I don't think so. In order to extrapolate societal behaviour, one needs to completely subscribe to human behaviouralism. Networks of humans are less deterministic than their particles precisely because human behaviour isn't predictable. Our current error in describing human behaviour quickly compounds when describing several or many interacting humans.

    Our lack of progress in sociology is a testament to our lack of understanding of the individual.

    1. Re:"We know how people act individually..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, its quite the opposite.

      Its MUCH easier to describe a large group of people (think statistics) than it is to describe a small group of people or an individual.

      For example - I cannot predict WHATSOEVER the course of a particular oxygen molecule. But I can quite easily make very strong (statistical) statements about the behavior of all of the gas particles in the room.

      Complexity in the universe peaks when one studies the individual human mind. All else is much simpler.

  50. Getafix was a cosmologist wrapped in a sheet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is this science, or the occult? or the science of the occult?

    try to tell someone the cure for cancer lies in foreign policy and they'll burn you for heracy.

    tell them quantam mechanics can be described by studying the cold war and the space race and they'll have you committed, then burnt for heracy.

    or even worse.... they'll call you a pseudoscientist or 'new age'.

    yes friends, the universal lifeforce exists and permeates through your spleen as well as it does through your pet rock.

    "as above, so below"

  51. Slashdot as a scale-free network by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Here's a couple of examples of networks that exhibit a scale-free topology.

    1. WikiWiki.

      This shows that Wiki sites are characterized by the Pareto distribution (a.k.a. power law distribution).

    2. RPM dependency graphs.

      Out of curiousity, I wrote a quick script to compute the distribution of the number of links in the RPM dependency graph. It does seem to follow the Pareto distribution.

    3. Slashdot

      Although I have no easy way of verifying this, my gut feeling is that the network of Slashdot users is also scale-free, if we define the notion of a link between two users as follows. User bobdc is linked to user bugbear, if bobdc has replied to any of bugbear's post (or submissions) at least once.

      This definition allows us to introduce the notion of a CmdrTaco number, similar to the Kevin Bacon number. Specifically, user Joe Schmoe has the CmdrTaco number of 1, if CmdrTaco has replied to any of Joe's comments. If Joe responded to wuliao's post, then wuliao has the CmdrTaco number of no greater than 2, and so on.

    Pareto distributions are pretty common. For example, the number of downloads on SourceForge follows the Pareto distribution.

    This page provides a fairly comprehensive list of further reading on the subject.

  52. Companion reading: Chaos by kryzx · · Score: 1
    This sounds fascinating. Might have to add it to my shelf.

    A closely related field, where there is probably lots of overlap, is Chaos Theory.
    For a good starter on that I recommend "Chaos" by James Gleick, a most excellent book. It both describes chaos theory extremely well and is engaging and readable.
    Gleick's site is here:
    http://www.around.com/
    His page on the book is here:
    http://www.around.com/chaos.html
    And here is an Amazon.com link:
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140 092501/qid=1043352869

    Happy reading and thinking.

    --
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
  53. Asimov knew that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    History proves over and over that single individuals can make a world-changing difference.

    That's why Asimov didn't suggest that psychohistory could predict events on a single planet - in fact, he explicitly said it could not. It was only in his galactic empire, comprising millions of worlds and quadrillions of individuals, that he suggested (fictionally) that individual actions might average out.

  54. Asimov... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, don't call me redundant either. But for the record Asimov was himself a scientist who hosted a radio show, and wrote or collaborated on a great number of text books.

    I think you have a good point going though. Yet it seems to me that eberytying that happens is based on the layer below that. We can see this in atomic structure because we can roughly predict how atoms will behave based on their configuration, and from that we can find out how molecules will behave, and there we can move up the chain making one series of conclusions to the next. After a certain point though, if you made one mistake or one wrong assumption then the whole thing is bunk. THis is sort of like Human societies, you can predict general trends but not specific directions and ideas, you can tell if there is going to be an economic recession or if there is going to be a boom because of certain factors, but you can't tell what will be the latest craze with the Kiddies.

    However, a knowledge of how something behaves will only allow you to deconstruct an objet into smaller parts, it is then important to figure out how each of those pieces work.

    Sorry about the anonymous account but the account password hasnt' been e-mailed out to me yet.

  55. Sociology huh? by oskarfasth · · Score: 1
    "We know how people act individually, and yet we can't extrapolate the behavior of entire societies from this."

    There just happens to be an entire discipline dedicated to exploring the behavior of entire societies. It's called sociology.
    ... and the problem with sociology is that, in fact, we don't know how people act individiually. Sure, we can quite accurately predict the behaviour of a single human being in a given enviroment, but that is mostly based on previous experience. In an arbitrary setting, it gets worse. IMO, the big problem lies with the fact that there is very little reliable research on the separation of properties acquired through enviroment vs. those acquired through heritage (and other natural factors, such as sex and even race). This opens up to heavy speculations, and leads to the possibility of constructing most elaborate theories claiming just about anything. Examples are amongst others "queer" theory and radical feminist theory (Ok, this is gonna get me flamed, but what the heck (disclaimer: I am neither a sexist or a homophobe, in fact I have a good friend who is openly gay, and as a liberal I support large parts of the feminist struggle)), both relying IMO on very little actual empirical science when it comes to the (therein) claimed properties of the individual and thus the value of these theories could be debated.

    Sociology is full of these things. There is simply no one view of how we humans work by design, not to mention to which extent we are affected by external circumstances. One of the most significant splits lie in the idea of the "natural" behaviour of man. There is still a great many people, mainly in social sciences, who believe in the ideas mainly formulated by Rousseau, that all the moral faults of man, all vice and egoism, can be blamed on society itself (an idea that I believe helped form the ideologies of the anarchist movements). Experiments (and quite heartless experiments by todays standards btw) conducted as early as during the 1700s, failed ingraciously to support this idea. (Example: A young native child was taken from his mother in a colony (I believe it must have been the island St. Bartholomy, the only real colony ever held by the Swedish crown) and taken to Stockholm to be brought up at the court without any moral guidance or rules of any kind. The idea was that if the ideas of Rousseau were correct, he would grow up something of a saint with an unquelchable thirst for knowledge, moral enlightnement etc. As the common sense of most people would dictate, the kid grew up a total pest, pulling evil little pranks on everybody in his surroundings and eventually had to be sent home).

    Gee. That was a long post. But this kind of topic really gets me going.
    --
    "Everyone who believes in telekinesis, raise my hand..." - James Randi
  56. I'm afraid that this "New Science" is quite old... by Carter+Butts · · Score: 4, Informative
    Contrary to what the author of Linked would have you believe, the scientific study of social networks has been around since the late 1920s/early 1930s. (Some of the very early work was a bit loopy -- check out Jacob Moreno's Who Shall Survive? for an example -- but the field rapidly progressed beyond this stage.) The first real network journal, Sociometry has been around since the late 1930s (longer than Barabasi has been alive, I expect), and today it's mantle is held by Social Networks; that's where you should look for current research in the field. Empirical, theoretical, and methodological work on social networks is also regularly published in the Journal of Mathematical Sociology, the Journal of Mathematical Psychology, the American Journal of Sociology, Sociological Methods and Research, Sociological Methodology, and Social Forces (among others). It turns out that we know quite a lot more about networks than Barabasi suggests in his book, and indeed the hub/connectivity issues on which his book focuses are only a very limited part of the overall picture.

    If you're interested in learning more about the large body of literature in this area, be sure to visit the INSNA web site. I think you'll find it much more informative than reading popular books on the subject.

    -Carter

  57. Re:More complex than you think - fragmentation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you examine this model closely, you will find out that it implies that the packets that enter aren't necessarily the same size when they leave!

    Isn't that the case whan fragmentation happens?

  58. The difference, of course... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. is that Wolfram is an asshole who gives himself personal credit for thinking up chaos theory by a different name, and Capra is a quack who likes to try mating science with mysticism, and then assumes the result can realistically be considered science by any stretch of the word.

    Barabási is worth taking seriously.

  59. Yeah, but see by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It may be a radical change in thought, but it's a radical change in thought that already occurred while Wolfram was composing his precious book. It's called chaos theory. Study it. I recommend the writings of Gleick, Briggs, Peat, Prigogine (for a primary source), a few different Lorentzes, Henri Poincare. These are just a few people who Wolfram wrote out of existence when he decided to give himself a nice big pat on the back for "inventing" a "new" kind of science.

  60. Global Scaling by scheidl.g · · Score: 1

    Try to understand the theory of the cosmic gravity compression wave and it is explains the dynamics of the many absolutely perfect. Unfortunately it is still rare..

    regards
    Gerald

  61. SFI's Kaufmann explains the origins of order by hunterellinger · · Score: 3, Informative

    Most of the "tipping point" theory (which goes back at least to Erdos' 1960 random-networks paper) looks at how gradual accumulation can lead to sudden shifts in system properties. Good stuff, and relevant to situations from Darwinian evolution to traffic-jam analysis, but not really new.

    However, the work of Sante Fe researcher Stuart Kaufmann (The Origins of Order, etc.) gives a whole new direction, showing how complex, interlocked systems can arise in some circumstances by winnowing a more complex chaotic system that arises naturally. It sounds circular until you look at it carefully, but Kaufmann backs up his analysis with extensive computer simulation as well as a deep analysis of genetic control processes (Kaufmann's original specialty).

    These ideas can be used far beyond the biological settings for which they were first developed. Examples range from the crystallization of activity patterns in a new organization or cultural area to the process of learning itself, where the "aha" experience marks the emergence of a set of coherent concepts from the overflowing cloud of ideas that sets the stage for it.

    Adding Kaufmann's ideas to your set of explanatory tools will permit you to resolve many complex-systems questions that are otherwise intractable. And computer types are particularly well-situated to understand and use his arguments.

  62. Re:Sociology studies the behavior of entire societ by Carter+Butts · · Score: 2, Informative
    There was no math to speak of either. I think Sociology is a bogus discipline designed to get communists into our school system.
    Might I suggest perusing the Journal of Mathematical Sociology or Social Networks for a different view of the field? While some self-described "sociologists" neatly fit your description, those of us doing actual social science would appreciate not being lumped in with the rest....

    -Carter

  63. Re:Sociology studies the behavior of entire societ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    then you didn't take the right classes. Many sociologists use mathematical and statistical models to understand human societies/groups. Perhaps there are lots of Marxists because it appeals to those who see injustice in society, but it is just as diverse in political opinion as any disipline (at least, measured as a range, rather than a variance ;)

  64. Re:This makes more sense to me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I vote the "Off-topic" moderation comment be removed.

  65. Re:Would people by blue+trane · · Score: 1

    Yeah, let's not try to understand how epidemics spread, let's just appreciate it.

  66. Another similar book by DreDawgie · · Score: 1

    There's another book on the subject of networking... Nexus: The science of Small Worlds.... This book basically talks about the archetecture of efficiently connected networks and topics such as the "6-degrees of separation" phenomena. The easy explanation for the 6-degree problem (that we're all connected by about 6-degrees... you know somebody who knows somebody....). The simple answer is that networks that are randomly connected tend to have small degree separation. But in reality, most networks (social etc.) have an organizing principle (you tend to know more people in your area or interest group than totally random people). Any attempt to mathematically model a network with an organizing principle quickly reveals that there are many points with huge numbers of degrees between them. As it turns out that introducing just a small number of random points (small enough so that the network is still statistically ordered by the principle and not considered "random" overall) all of a sudden shrinks the number of degrees. What's cool about this is that examples of such networks turn up in brains, swarms of lightning bugs that synch. their flashes... etc. I'm sure that we are reaching a tipping point in the science of tipping points!

  67. Give me a four digit number... by FAH+Q+AUSS+HOLES · · Score: 1

    'Give me a four digit number,' he said.

    '2,532,' came the wide-eyed boy's reply . . .

    'The square of it is 6,441,024,' he continued. 'Sorry, I am getting old and I cannot tell you the cube.'"


    Actually the square of it is 6,411,024 :)

  68. Asimov and Psychohistory by Madcapjack · · Score: 1

    In Asimov's Foundation Series, a principle of psychohistory is that one cannot predict the future based off of individual behaviour but only on its statistical aggregates. It is interesting therefore that Seldon is the individual which single-handedly transforms the galaxy, and I wonder, could psychohistory have predicted what Seldon accomplished?

  69. Re:Sociology studies the behavior of entire societ by Madcapjack · · Score: 1
    I'm afraid I have little tolerance for post-modern 'thought'. i hate to say this, though, really.

    they have such fancy cool words that don't mean anything.

    ok maybe i'm trolling, of is it flamebaiting?

    i'm not sure what you mean by empirical logic. but I am personally critical with the post-modern critique in anthropology of rationality. they seem to assume that rationality means profit maximization and vulgar utilitarianism. but i think that people can rationally pursue irrational ends. utility is a function of cultural and personal values. i want to smoke. it gives me a utility. i value it. i pursue it in a rational manner by lighting up. but of course, if i value health, then maybe i shouldn't light up. the rationality of any given activity is determined partially by the questions frame of reference. perhaps then we should talk about actions as being made up of the physical and the intentional. wait! isn't this Hegel? bah i'm not up on my philosophy.

  70. Small Worlds and Power Laws by 0wen · · Score: 1

    Besides being a great read, Barabási filled in a tremendiously important gap in computing graph theory which started with Milgram's Small Worlds work, continued with Watts & Strogatz book on Small Worlds and 6 degrees of separation, and ended up with Huberman and Watts & Newman's great work in power law search and dynamics. Check out (blatant self serving) http://backspaces.net/PLaw/ which discusses what these guys went thru. Barabási and his folks figured out, among other things, how small worlds can be power law worlds. They are definitely changing our world.

  71. Re:I'm afraid that this "New Science" is quite old by Flutty · · Score: 1

    Thanks for the steer. I have read Tipping Point and was inspired by it. I was therefore thinking about buying Barabási's book, I checked our library and it is on loan and has three holds on it. So there must be a buzz.

    INSNA site is good... but like all new subjects I need a pioneer or a guide to lead the way and this is where "popular writers" do the trick. Many academic journals are written to further a debate on small element of theory. Which to the general reader - myself - are not the way in.

  72. Re:Sociology studies the behavior of entire societ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    marxism does not equal communism (though communism is founded on many of the principle's of marxism)

  73. What was your textbook? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Got an ISBN, or a link at Amazon?

    Thanks!

  74. Re:I'm afraid that this "New Science" is quite old by Carter+Butts · · Score: 1
    INSNA site is good... but like all new subjects I need a pioneer or a guide to lead the way and this is where "popular writers" do the trick. Many academic journals are written to further a debate on small element of theory. Which to the general reader - myself - are not the way in.
    In that respect, I think that these recent popularizations have had a positive impact....my concern is merely that they present a very distorted picture of the field as a whole. (Like, for instance, ignoring it.) This is a not uncommon gripe about popularizations, I suppose, although that doesn't make it without justification....

    If you want a more technical (but still approachable) introduction to social network analysis, you might want to look at Wasserman and Faust's 1994 Social Network Analysis: Methods and Applications. This one is a getting a little dated, but it's a still the broadest methods text available. John Scott wrote a little book simply called Social Network Analysis some years back (don't recall the publication year) which may be more approachable yet, although it is much more limited. Really good, up-to-date texts are hard to find in such a rapidly evolving field, but these are adequate to get you sufficiently prepared to start reading the scientific literature (which is where the real action is).

    -Carter

  75. Cause and effect by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

    It seems that this book is trying to show people what the government has known for years and what big business is becoming experts on.

    If you know how the network works, you can make very high level decisions based on calculated cause and effect. For example, what might seem like a bad decision at first may eventually give you the outcome you desire.

    In a world where all avenues seem tapped out and it's hard to get ahead, I believe networks are one of the keys to breaking through.