Slashdot Mirror
TiVo switches off UK sales
SmackCrackAndPot writes "On the TiVo Community forum, there is an announcement that TiVo will be switching off UK sales.
This was previously reported in November at
BizTech Library.
It's probably not too surprising, after the BBC
spammed TiVo owners with a new comedy show."
i find it funny *pun intended* that it took british comedy, of which i am a big fan, to remove tivo, when seemingly no amount of litigation and pointless court hearings can do it anywhere else.
at least thats my take on things.
xao
xao
http://TheHillforum.hopto.org
What a bunch of crap. TiVo units have a certain amount of memory set aside for "enhanced content" (that means infomercials). If you don't look in the menus, you'd never know it was there, unless you happened to be watching at 4AM when it was captured. In NO way can TiVo be said to be spamming. Someone bought a paid placement. Hey, I hated it when TiVo recorded a bunch of crappy Eminem interviews, but I just didn't watch it, and I certainly didn't whine about it.
Remember TiVo makes ZERO dollars from hardware sales, they are solely supported by subscription revenues, ad placements, and selling marketing data.
Read the reply comments on that forum. Now read the same hoax going back over the last few months.
Now HAND.
For crying out loud, those people are just looking for something to complain about (which I'm sure you /. folks will understand ;-)). It's not like the show is filled with porn, it looks like the show is like any other brain-dead sitcom. I can just imagine the 10 year old boys waking early on Saturday morning and finding this illicit show on their Tivo. As they watched the tittilating comedy with jokes about urinal cakes, their eyebrows twitched nervously, and they repeatedly looked over their shoulder to see if Mom or Dad were walking in.
Jeesh.
--naked
Very popular slashdot journal for adul
In the UK, there is a huge push from sky to sell its Sky + service, which is the main competetion for Tivo here. Haven't actually tried the Tivo, but Sky + is an extremely competent package.
http://www.europemedia.net/shownews.asp?ArticleID= 13703
Thompson, Tivo's manufacturer is the one that pulled out - Tivo is still looking for new manufacturers.
.. also known as the loss leader, seems to be a defining practice in interactive home entertainment these days. That basically means that the company makes no money off the initial sale, but reaps high margins from subsequent purchases necessary to keep that initial device functional.
.. but that's another issue.
.. then trying to make profits by selling mandatory advertising spots to media companies. Unfortunately, there aren't enough TiVo users to convince media companies to pay big bucks for the spots.
It worked extremely well for Sony -- selling the playstation at zero (sometimes negative) margins, then making money by being the sole licenser of games (that they didn't spend money developing) for the platform.
I think the xbox is taking financially because Microsoft went out and bought a substantial number of good game development companies who haven't been able to release a seriously block-busting game
TiVo is a completely different story. They're selling the consoles at or below cost
The population of TiVo users has to grow -- and that means they need to lower the cost of their consoles. Dramatically. Even if it means reducing the functionality of the box. When TiVo costs $50, and you can buy it at Wallgreens, that's when advertising and media companies are going to sit up and thing "Holy crap, that's a huge captive audience."
I'll take that bet. The government (even our corrupt American one) is hardly silly enough to intentionally put themselves sqaurely opposed to millions of individuals exercising their freedom to code and share software. That's alienating a very big demographic, (think of all the corporations going OSS to save money-- mine, for example, and we're a real estate firm). Furthermore, it's alienating a very pissed-off demographic with a lot of resources that will put up a big fight.
Most OSS/freedom issues are minor ones that involve particular lawsuits invoking everyone's favorite target, the DMCA, or silly proposed bills to mandate DRM or some such. Imagine, however, that the US Gov't decided to promote Windows usage by changing policy to only award contracts to organizations using M$ software (the only way, really, for them to push such a switch). Can you imagine the outrage from HP and IBM over such a policy? One of those open-source shops would file a project proposal on the spot, and then go immediately straight to the courts to challenge the rejection. And there's no possible way the government would be able to defend such a blanket policy. (There are rules which lay out the criteria on which the federal government can award contracts, etc.)
And don't even get me started on how absurd the suggestion is to use M$ Desktop Sharing for spying. The service doesn't run by default, and has to be set up by the user. And no properly configured would EVER let remote desktop traffic in or out.
So I'll take that bet. What are your terms? Let me know what the timetable is for when I can collect my money, and I'll e-mail you and we can work out the details
TiVo has the ability to record supplemental content like movie previews, behind-the-scenes footage, and "see this for more info" kind of advertising.
This content is generally accessible from a showcase section that you might browse to see what different networks are promoting, and I think they envisioned things like short broadcast ads that pop-up an on-screen TiVo icon to click for additional information. They also cycle some of this content through a listing on your main menu to promote it independently.
In the UK, the BBC purchased one of these main menu ads to record an entire episode of a new program.
Viewers in the UK were livid about 2 things. First, they felt that recording an entire program during prime time was going too far in exercising corporate control over their equipment. Secondly, they were upset that the program was adult content (post-watershed means it was rated such that it isn't suitable to air during "family hours.") that parents could not block with parental controls or delete from the main menu.
TiVo absolutely learned a lot from that incident (they had inadvertly overlooked the parental control issues) and they will approach new advertising sales opportunities very differently in the future.
Now, having said that, the real reason that they are shutting down UK sales is that the manufacturer of the TiVo box in the UK stopped making it. TiVo doesn't have the capital to invest in the UK market and have shifted to an approach of merely supporting the existing users, but nobody new. In that scenario, no need to run a sales office. Lay them off and spend the money getting new US subscribers.
Yes, it will always record your "to do" list first. I often set to record things overnight and I've never had something drop because it conflicted with a "showcase" (that's where these sit when they're not on the main menu with a little star).
In fact, it won't even change the channel on you if you happen to be watching something.
I was up the other night sleepless, flipping channels when TiVo asked if it could change the channel. I was suprised because I didn't remember setting anything up for 3:30 am on the Discovery Channel, but I let it go because I thought maybe my wife had set to record something.
So, it changed the channel (with my permission) and proceeded to start recording some previews for "Daredevil". I decided I'd rather go back to some documentary about Rhinos humping or something I was previously watching, so it let me change the channel without complaining that I was interrupting a scheduled recording or anything.
It went back and picked up the movie previews the next night, I guess because they showed up in a couple days.
I guess I was a little wary that TiVo was recording what amounts to ads at first. But I really don't mind that much now. Some of the stuff like best buy kind of turns me off, a few things like the daredevil previews I liked, and the rest I really don't even care about.
Besides, isn't there a backdoor code or something to keep TiVo from recording these?
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
For goodness sake folks, you're suppposed to be techies, don't you understand that all TV programming is "spammed" in the sense that it's broadcast to everybody??? That makes it fairly silly to accuse the BBC of spamming. Yeah, the BBC and all TV stations have been spamming us for half a century, it's what they do.
All TVs, VCRs, and TiVos in the appropriate reception areas received the broadcast, if they were switched on and tuned to the right channel. I've never heard of anyone switching on the telly and shouting in horror, "I'm being spammed!". The TiVos also stored what they were receiving, as that's what they were designed to do with this special content. That really does make this a non-story.
Please reserve the word "spam" for individually addressed delivery systems delivering the same item to multiple recipients. Applying it to broadcast systems makes no sense at all.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Why did this thread instantly jump to the conclusion it was over this infomercial issue? Tivo never caught on like wildfire, even though people like me have bought them for their parents and siblings knowing they'd love it like I did. But for whatever reasons it did not become the VCR replacement, and Tivo's stock price has always struggled. Still, to know PVR is to love it. Tivo hasn't gone under, but for example on DirecTV it's no longer called Tivo, it's just part of your DirecTV service. The company did not flourish in one form and so it has taken on other forms. It appears that PVR's are accepted when they are part of a cable or satellite box, i.e., a built-in feature of something else. So I put very little stock in this notion that an informercial brought down Tivo in the UK, when this closure falls right in line with the direction the company has been heading in.
Support?????? Maybe in the past, but not anymore. The Tivo Series 2 boxes are locked down rather heavily. The boot ROM checks for a signed kernel, if it's not signed, it won't run. The kernel checks for modifications to the file system, if any are found it replaces the files and reboots. Although there have been some reports of hardware hacks to replace the ROM, it's not exactly what I would call "all of the support they give to the hacking community".
Not to mention the whole 3.2 backdoor code debacle. After thousands of hours of CPU time, the project had to be abandoned. The conclusion was that Tivo has either used an invalid hash or very long key sequence as the backdoor code in version 3.2, when previously the codes were short and easily hacked. It is just one more example of how hostile Tivo is becoming to hackers.
Tivo is attempting to create an image of greater security (keeping out the dirty hackers) on a software and hardware level in order to market the ability to distribute content with the Tivo as a DRM platform. If you can't hack it, you pretty much have to accept any restrictions they put on content delivered to you. They can deliver PPV events that are deleted after 1 day or not able to be recorded at all.
Fortunately, I have a Series 1 and can do whatever I like with it. I have a backup of every software revision Tivo has put out, so I can revert to an earlier version at any time. I certainly am not going to allow Tivo to send me any more updates, the boot ROM in the S1 is flashable so it's quite possible for Tivo to send down updates that lock me out of my machine.
New Tivo owners are not so lucky. There is no reverting to an earlier version of your brand-new Tivo. I have recommended Tivo to friends in the past but given the disregard for the community that has staunchly supported them (not only by buying subscriptions but by keeping extraction and guide replacement information difficult and obscure and by adding value for other users-free of charge) I don't know if I can still recommend them. I do like the UI but what really got me to buy one was the hack potential. Now that they have no hack potential, the luster is gone and I see the company for what it is: moneygrubbing fools that will alienate their most loyal users for a few quick bucks.
Enigma
... when you've purchased a ReplayTV today.
Now I understand what all the fuss is about. You really have to sit down, pause a live broadcast, rewind it a bit, then start playing again to understand why this thing is so cool.
It's a pity that this device that makes me watch more TV is under fire by the TV Industry. Am I going to skip commercials? Yes. Am I going to skip every single commercial? Can't skip commercials while the show is originally airing. I'm using it to catch shows I hadn't seen yet. If the show's good, I'm going to watch it when it airs. The ads are still getting to me, even more so now that I have more shows I want to watch.
Okay, that horse has been beaten to death. It's just sad that these industries are so short sighted. I mean, think about it, the more fun TV is (i.e. trading shows...), the more interest is generated in seeking interesting content.
Okay, I'm not really on-topic anymore. Sorry. Just wanted to vent a bit. Hopefully you can imagine my reaction to the headline the day I bought the machine.
The withdrawl of tivo from the UK is in part related to the wider mess that is UK terrestrial broadcasting, and there's a bunch of stuff going on that anyone outside the UK wouldn't be expected to know, leave now if you don't care.
There are theoretically 5 analogue terrestrial channels in the UK, and in many places only 4.
There is also no single widely available cable network either and if you do have access, it's typically a local monopoly and it's pretty expensive - typically £20-30/month for a descent package.
The Sky (satellite) service is polular but also expensive.
Several years ago a digital terrestrial service was launched and failed miserably and with much fanfare. This has recently been re-launched as entirely an entirely free-to-view service and looks set to succeed.
Now as you can see, we have a real mess of technologies here and if a company such as Tivo wants to sell a premium recorder product they've got a problem. Their marked is spread across satellite, and a multiplicity of analogue/digital terrestrial and cable formats.
What decoders do they build into their device?
1. Sky which re-transmits all of the (good) free-to-view channels have their own HD based recorder.
2. People with only terrestrial analogue are happy with VCRs
3. The cable market is fragmented technologically.
4. Digital terrestrial is a new but very small market.
So they gave up, and I don't blame them - it's a mess.
B.T.W. Pace have a digital terrestrial HD recorder which might be interesting but it was due before Christmas and there's still no sign.
Wow I'm boring.
TiVo may have seemed revolutionary in the USA, but in the UK it was just one of many enhanced TV systems.
TiVo's biggest rival, Sky Plus (Sky+) did everything that TiVo did, and more, came pre-packaged with an installation engineer's visit and had the branding and backing of the UK's largest pay-TV provider, Sky (backed by Rupert Murdoch/Fox corp).
Sky already had a shedload of TV toys. For instance, I remember one of my business meetings in Texas two years ago, the CEO of this oil firm was saying something like "In the future, you'll be able to watch a football match and zoom in on individual players".
Then I glanced down at the predicted coverage map for my GPRS phone in Texas...
Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
AIUI, the TiVo box works by downloading listings via a dial-up connection, and MPEG-encoding an analogue TV signal.
The thing is, they released it in the UK after digital TV was "widely" available. IMHO, most of the people that would consider buying a TiVo are likely to be people who have digital TV.
DVB has digital, in-band listings information that can be updated in real-time if the line-up changes. Additionally, with something like Sky+ or one of the yet-to-surface digital terrestrial or cable DVR boxes, you don't have to decode the MPEG to analogue and then re-encode it to MPEG before you can record it. That makes for a cheaper box, with higher quality audio/video and better compression (so more stuff can be recorded).
I'm guessing that demand for integrated DVR systems will be much higher than it ever was for TiVo.
Registering accounts later than some other chrisb since 1997
Maybe you're confused because TiVo was marketed in the UK by Sky, and TiVo used to have a "supported by Sky" flash on the main menu?
Erm, "everything that TiVO did, and more"? Sky+ doesn't support suggestions, it doesn't support wishlists, season passes don't work as reliably (and until a recent patch used to fail extremely regularly), etc. Sky+ is a fairly good product, but it's much younger than TiVo, and it shows.