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Why Does Manga Succeed Where American Comics Fail?

Otaku_0245 writes "I read a really interesting article at slushfactory.com entitled 'Why Does Manga Succeed Where American Comics Fail?' discussing/comparing the comics industries in Japan and the US. It's basically a 3-way conversation including Frederik Schodt (author of 'Dreamland Japan' - one of my favorite books about Japanese pop culture), and very thought-provoking."

34 of 383 comments (clear)

  1. Better stories... by natron+2.0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IMHO, I think it has to do with the deeper stories about mans plight with technology and how it seems to be taking over our lives. Plus it seems the artistry is a little more alluring. Don't get me wrong, Comics are great in thier own right. It just seems that people can get a little tired of super heroes after a while...

    1. Re:Better stories... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I don't think so. I live in Tokyo (lived in Japan for 3 years now) and I can tell you three things for sure:

      1) EVERYONE here reads manga. EVERYONE.
      2) A lot of the art sucks. People here don't read for the art (generally). They read for the stories. Um...pron excluded.
      3) I've read several manga series, and I have to tell you that most of them are totally uninteresting (at least to me) yet my Japanese friends love them (e.g., a manga about a soccer player). And most of them are NOT sci-fi.

    2. Re:Better stories... by Caiwyn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I beg to differ. Manga is no deeper than American comics - catgirls with huge chests and people who change gender when water is splashed on them do not high literature make.

      Sure, there are gems, but there are gems in American comics as well. Pick up any run of Cerebus: The Aardvark and you'll find intelligent criticism of politics, religion, or gender issues, mixed with a fair dose of wit and humor. Even the superhero books have done their share of groundbreaking - Superman has become an icon of justice. Spider-Man is possibly the only hero I can think of who never compromised his central ideal of personal responsibility. The X-Men have paralleled race relations in society since their inception.

      People forget these things because they get bored with them. So they find something else for a while. Manga doesn't differ from American comics all that much, conceptually. The real difference is style. As such, I'm inclined to say that the fascination with these things is something of a fad. It may never die out, but it will peak, fall, and plateau, as all things in pop culture do.

    3. Re:Better stories... by leoboiko · · Score: 4, Interesting

      People forget these things because they get bored with them.

      Now thats a point against American superheroes - mangas do end! No matter how good you are, you just cant continue a story forever. Wheres the end of Spiderman? Whats The Punisher grand finale? When will Superman get old?

      Japanese are more smart - the comics eventually finish, sales go high, and if they see potential, theyll make more comics with the same style.

      --
      Prescriptive grammar:linguistics :: alchemy:chemistry. Stop being a nazi and learn some science.
  2. Easy answer is culture. by amigaluvr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The answer here is culture. Not so much traditional japanese vs american, but just a level of acceptance.

    In the US comics are still seen as trash. the language of people who aren't bright and have nothing to do with their time better than waste life. This is not true however, the perception remains.

    In the US there is of course a subgroup who appreciate such works, and know there is more to it

    Japanese culture in general appreciates these things a little better. Without judgment on the content, there hasn't been such a strong surge of "these are trash" during the last 40 years.

    Whether or not something is good or bad is often irrelevant. When it is pushed under it becomes a subculture, which in the US is what we have more than Japan

    1. Re:Easy answer is culture. by alnapp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Also, the Japanese have always used "comic books" for serious (sometimes mundane) stuff.

      In US (and here in UK) comics are regarded as "kids Stuff" irrespective of their content.

      I've heard it theorised that this is because of the more visual nature of written Japanese, but don't know if thats true.

    2. Re:Easy answer is culture. by Matthias+Wiesmann · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The answer here is culture. Not so much traditional japanese vs american, but just a level of acceptance.

      In the US comics are still seen as trash. the language of people who aren't bright and have nothing to do with their time better than waste life. This is not true however, the perception remains.

      Very true, you see a similar phenomena in Europe, and in France in particular. Comics are relatively well accepted, and some of the classics are now a integral part of the culture. Adults read comics and no few people in France will think you are childish for reading Astérix (in fact it took my years to figure out all the jokes).

      The funny thing, is that many of the reasons proposed for the success of manga are not present in France. Comics are not cheap (most of them are real book with some hard cover) and to big to read in the train (standard european comic format is roughly A4). Yet they are very popular.

  3. because its always fresh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    it has variety, not afraid to discuss 'taboo' topics, and every series ends, unlike american comics where most of the super-heroes are still alive or are just re-introduced as X "Unlimited".

  4. Ummm, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Since when did American comics fail? Last I looked Spiderman, Superman, Batman, X-Men and many others were on just about every newsstand. Not to mention MAD and other, more satirical comics. I, for one, read hundreds of comics set in the X-Men universe when i was younger (The New Mutants, X-Force, Cable etc). On the other hand I've only read a couple of mangas and wasn't too thrilled. Not to say manga is bad, just it's not very appealing to me. I found the storylines a lot more "real" in the X-Men Marvel universe, ironically. It spoke about real political and environmental issues affecting America today, whereas a lot of manga seems to be more about internal or personal issues... Perhaps traditional "geeks" can identify more with the latter, but for me tackling racism and the political environment head-on was a lot more interesting.

    1. Re:Ummm, what? by cgenman · · Score: 3, Informative
      Since when did American comics fail? Last I looked Spiderman, Superman, Batman, X-Men and many others were on just about every newsstand.

      My god, you haven't looked at newsstands in a LOOOONG time.

      If you are not in a big city where we have real newsstands, or aren't near an airport where fake newsstands inhabit, go into any supermarket or drugstore and look at the newspaper / magazine aisle. Chances are, you won't find any comics, or you will only find children's comics that are badly out of date. MAD is still there, yes, but the serial comic book has fallen greatly from it's 1950's high point of accessability. These days if you want a comic book, you really do have to go to a comic book store or a hip music joint.

      Now trashy romance novels: *Those* are on every newsstand.

  5. European 'manga' is popular by WSXWS · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's worth mentioning that here in France there is a very big market for manga-style comic books read by adults and teens - most book stores have big shelves of these comics. Japanese manga and anime is also available and relatively popular. The same situation also exists in Germany and Italy - Japanese manga is very popular in these countries. English-speaking countries really seem to be the exception here in that in these countries manga is virtually unknown and comic books are seen as inferior to text-only books.

  6. Cultural Stigmas by silentbozo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Probably because there's a stigma for adults in the U.S. to be reading picture books, just as there's a bias for adults to consider animation kid-fare.

    Doesn't mean that it's right or wrong, but it's there. Aside from shorts, and comic strips, the adult audience in the U.S. is very unlikely to go out and buy serialized graphic novels, or watch 2D animated films, irregardless of quality (unless it's a Disney film.)

    Also, "comic books" in the US has a very specific designation, for a maybe 30 page pulp story, sold in racks. If you broaden the term to include stuff like Doonsbury, Peanuts, and Garfield, then I'd argue that we have a pretty good penetration, which reflects format. The article mentions that japanese will buy manga to pass the time while on the subway - I'd just buy a newspaper, and take a glance at the comics while I browse through the business section. Different media drive different formats, for different audiences.

    If you look at it that way, then US syndicated short format strip comics are not a failure. It's the traditional larger format pulp stuff that isn't selling well, probably because it's so damnned expensive. Hell, $3.00 for a single issue of Usagi Yojimbo??? For the cost of two comics, I can buy a remaindered copy of a Tom Clancy novel. That'd take up at least a week's worth of commuting on a bus or subway.

  7. Because They're Cheaper. Seriously. by John_Booty · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I was never a hardcore comic book reader, but there were a bunch of American comic titles that I used to read back in the late 80's and early 90's. Around the early 90's, though, things started getting ridiculous. Comics wanted to be treated as *visual art*, they got much more expensive and "collectible". That first issue of McFarland's Spiderman comic was the beginning of the end. That thing was what, twenty pages long and cost three bucks? But the picture sure were pretty, and the paper sure was glossy. *gag*

    Now, you can't even buy comics at the convenience store any more- at least not many of them. They're marshaled away in specialized comic book stores, where collectors go to peruse.

    Manga, however, has always taken the opposite approach, the one American comics used until the time period I just described. Manga keeps things cheap, fun, and disposable. For the equivalant of a few bucks, you get a couple hundred pages of manga. Easy to pick up and put down, and it's not "collectible", so you can carry it anywhere. The stories are pulpy and fun, and they don't try to be more than they are. Sure, there are some though-provoking plots (Shirow, etc) but it never takes itself too seriously like a lot of American comics do.

    (I know there's plenty of exceptions to the things I talked about. I'm talking "in general", not "absolutely and completely")

    --

    OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
  8. IANAPhD by Nakanai_de · · Score: 3, Insightful
    ...but I think there are two major reasons:

    The first is variety. There is manga about everything: Sports (pick your favorite), vampires, giant robots piloted by 14-year olds, biker gangs, romance, religious themes, (and, yes, porn)...the list goes on and on. It's true that US comics aren't just superheroes, but American comics don't exist in the variety of genres that manga does.

    The second is literacy. People like to claim that Japan has a huge literacy rate; I don't have any figures on how true this is. However, most books are damn hard to read, especially if you're interested in something likely to have uncommon kanji like sci-fi. (I recently brought a copy of the Japanese translation of the Heinlein book _The Door Into Summer_ to the school I work at, and many of the teachers had trouble with it.) On the other hand, manga is very easy to read. A lot of the time, you don't even have to worry about the kanji, since it's accompanied by furigana. The fact that the story is a combination of pictures and text makes reading a lot less mental effort (which is good, because it's likely you're already mentally exhausted from school or work). In America, there doesn't seem to be a functional difference in the level of literacy required between a comic and a novel, so there's not as much reason to shell out $2 or $3 for a 20-page comic (with advertisements) when you could get a paperback for twice or thrice as much.

    --

    Sono koro, bokura wa, sore ga sekai no shinjitsu da to shinjite ita.

  9. porn? yes! somehow. by colonel.sys · · Score: 3, Interesting

    i find that most manga comic characters seem to have that subtle sex appeal that makes them interesting. it's not that i don't like donald duck but he doesn't have that expression on his face that i see with a lot of manga stars.

    and i'm not talking about the pr0n stuff which i personally can't really find very pr0nific.

    --
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    --
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  10. Re:They've got it backwards. by Denjiro · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I find it amusing that this got moded as highly as it did. Did you even read more than the first question? Yes the manga market is going into decline, but they also stated that publishers in almost any other country would be dumbfounded by the sales and profitability of manga.

    The main thrust of the article had nothing to do with profitability in foreign markets. The article was comparing manga popularity in Japan and comic popularity in the USA and what, if anything comic publishers could pick up from the manga publishers to improve their sales. If you compare the two, manga is orders of magnitude more popular and profitable in it's home market.

  11. Quality by slavemowgli · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even at the risk of being modded down for saying this, I think one of the reasons might be that us-american comics simply lack quality. Of course there are exceptions, but most of them seem to be nothing more than reiterations of the same worn-out themes and stories with the same worn-out character stereotypes - at least that is my own personal impression.

    --
    quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
  12. literacy in Japan by Bishop · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From the CIA World Factbook

    Literacy in Japan: 99% (1970 est)

    Literacy in US: 97% (1979 est)

    But those numbers are pretty meaningless being a generation out of date. Even if those numbers are accurate a difference of 2% is no difference at all. More interesting figures would be the number of people who read the newspaper daily, or who read outside of work. I suspect those numbers are quite low in North America.

  13. What happend to Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse? by EABinGA · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This may be slightly offtopic, but I have been wondering, why there are no more Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck comics in the US?

    They still seemt to be very widespread in Europe, but I can't recall seeing any in the US recently.

  14. Comics in the US by ajs · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The reason that comics in the US do not have the wide appeal of manga in Japan is obvious in just listening to a comic fan attempt to describe manga. It usally goes something like, "they're like comics, but they're about anything. Everyone reads them."

    There's a perception in the US that comics (the name itself is skewed, which is why so many have tried to use terms like "graphic literature", etc.) can only contain "kids" stories and their only fan-base are otaku.

    This is not true, of course, but it's correct for a majority of comics (getting less so over the past 10 years) and a majority of readers (still quite true). Until both of those change, the stereotypes will remain. There *should* be more comics about everyday life that appeal to everyone.

    If you've been out of the loop and are interested in catching some of the more interesting comics out there, here are some of the ones that I've found interesting (note: not all of these are traditional comics, but some are and the rest are certainly not mainstream literature by any measure):

    Superheros:

    * Astro City -- What its like to live with supers
    * TOP10 -- In a world where everyone from the meter-maids to the homeless are super-heros, what are the police like? Odd premise, great book.
    * Rising Stars -- In a midwest town, a meteor strikes causing all in-utero babies in the area (113 of them) to develop unusual abilities when they're born. The 24-issue series follows their lives and deaths and the politics that surrounds them.

    Fantasy / Alternate History:

    * League of Extraordinary Gentlemen -- An amazingly cool look at an alternate history where all of the late 1800s and early 1900s fantasy, adventure and science fiction books are true. Everyone from Sherlock Holmes to Captn. Nemo to Dr Jeckle are in the story, and it works well.
    * Girl Genius -- A fun story about a world that can only do high-tech through magical individuals known as sparks.
    * Lucifer -- The title character is the angel, cast out of heaven and formerly ruler of hell. This is a spin-off of the classic late-80s/early-90s series Sandman.

    These are the books that I read now. Fantasy and super-heros are well established genres for comics, and they're done well in many cases. It's just too bad that there aren't more genres being allowed in. Real science fiction makes an attempt every now and then, and sometimes it works, but often it does not. The slice-of-life stories that really made manga are almost non-existant. In fact, the closest US comics came to that, AFAICT is Archie.

  15. Re:its the.. by An+Ominous+Cow+Erred · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not true at all. It is NOT socially acceptable for a middle-aged businessman to read Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon is for preteen and early-teen girls. Not only that, Sailor Moon ended years ago... Nakayoshi (one of a thousand phone-book sized manga anthology magazines that gets printed every week) replaced it with another story.

    The middle-aged businessmen are reading a class of comics made specifically for businessmen. They are aptly called "Business Comics". Now these comics aren't necessarily ABOUT business (although a huge amount of them are), but they are tailored to the businessman market.

    Women have their own kind of comics (Women's Comics). Young men have their own (Youth Comics). Boys, girls, etc. of all ages have comics tailored for their gender and specific age group.

    Basically walk down the aisle of your local Barnes & Noble, and imagine *EVERY* story there done as comic books. All the biographies, the historical fiction, the "true crime", the romance, the mystery, the documentaries... All of them written much as they are, except as comics. THAT is what comics are like in Japan.

    Just about the only thing you WON'T see as comics in Japan are scholarly works -- i.e. things which are meant to be totally informative rather than entertaining... On the non-scholarly end though, even some of the informative stuff like instructional "HOW-TO" books are sometimes made as manga.

    What you see outside of Japan is in fact a very small subset, mostly geared at the "otaku" (geek/freak/fanboy|girl) market (which I am a part of, but have no illusions about).

  16. Geek's passion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In the U.S., yes comics are either trash or treasure. If you are a mainstream kid, they are cool. Mainstream adult, garbage. Fanboy adult, treasure. An audience of children and fanboys is pretty big, but when your material is not varied enough and prices for each book are high, you will attract zero new readers.

    In Japan, EVERYBODY reads manga. It appeals to everyone. The appeal explains the saturation. The saturation explains the print quality. The print quality explains the cost. The cost explains part of the appeal.

    The disposable manga marketing model is so profitable because of Japan's disposable culture. Don't fix or keep old things, especially at the cost of living/storage space, if newer and better things can be had cheaply. This profitablity attracts publishers big and small, which creates a demand for artists and writers. There's your variety. Think American comics industry in the 1980's on a bigger scale over a much longer period of time (decades).

    The article points out the collector mentality that American comics fans have. I share this mentality, because I like to think of every purchase I make as SOME kind of investment. I also have a huge house and ample storage space for my stuff (in the bay area, it's a wonder I can afford food, but yes, my house is quite respectable and my collection is as well). So comics are expensive, because as a collector, quality media production isn't just a premium, it's a requisite for purchase. Problem here? Joe Blow sees the price tag and walks away from the neewsstand thinking, "I miss my 60 cent Uncanny X-Men books." No new readership? Then regardless of how shiny your book is, you will get no new readership.

    Schodt had the whole thing covered. As I see it, America will never have the same level of saturation for this type of media as Japan. Their culture and the publishers' understanding to their culture facilitate high consumption rates. America isn't Japan. The differences shouldn't cause concern for anybody but Marvel and DC.

  17. Because they suck... by AdamInParadise · · Score: 4, Informative

    and they suck because American comics are considered as childish, dumb and cheap. Honestly, I don't know why but I'm sure some people have theories.

    So the whole business is seen as unattractive and people buying them are labbelled as dorks. Go to a Borders or BN and ask for the "Graphic Novels" Section, you will see the look they give you.

    In Europe, comics are an art form. It's big business and therefore it attracts lots of creative people like writers and graphic artists. So there is some pretty strong competition going on.

    There're books for every age but there're all pretty good. Usually, parents read comics too, so they can detect crap quite easily.
    Also, it takes a lot more work to produce a volume. Profilic artists release two or three books PER YEAR. Books are also a lot more expensive (goes from $8 to $20), bigger (A4 is the norm), with a good paper quality and a hardcover. Such a book usually survives for 30 years.

    I own a few american comics : the first Alien VS Predator, some Star Wars stuff... The stories, the graphics, the colors can't compare to some middle-quality european comics.

    Of course, we do have our fair share of garbage too. Stories running for 20 books (at $12 at pop).. Computer generate drawings...

    Finally, anecdotal evidence makes me think that the talent is there (the absolutely amazing Strangers In Paradise serie (www.strangersinparadise.com), strip comics, Will Eisner (The Spirit and some other books), movies...), but it isn't promoted.

    Anyway, Europe's situation 50 years ago was similar to the US' situation today, so there is hope.

    --
    Nobox: Only simple products.
  18. Staying Fresh by cgenman · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I can think of 3 reasons that haven't been mentioned yet why Comics aren't accepted in the US as compared to Japan.

    1. Overused / unrelatable characters. In the US comic market, there are three types of characters: thoroughly recycled, new but testosterone saturated, and "girl's stuff." The "New" spiderman has been done for so many generations it is hard to get anyone interested. The Maxx was a highly accessable character with a surprising amount of depth... if you could get past the fact that he looked like a van with p3nises coming out of his hands. Most people can't. And if you are only selling comics in bastions of testosterone (comic book shops), how do you plan to sell comics about human issues? Japanese comics come in all flavors, all sizes. They're not as stereotyped, but they don't go out of their way to fit a stereotype. Not every manga cover in Japan involves a big sweaty guy holding a weapon. (Yes, I'm aware that Johnny the Homicidal Maniac is a small sweaty guy holding a weapon. That's why he's more accessable.)

    2. Most American comic books are franchises of a successful main character, while manga are plot-driven stories involving characters. Many comics are written as independent stories by multiple authors, which makes it difficult to change anything canon about the character / world without getting a quorum at a committee. The character is left exactly where he started at the beginning of the comic book having gone nowhere. And there generally is only superficial interaction between the independent stories. Manga seem decidedly more plot driven, with characters serving as focal points rather than subject matter. Kaneda was hardly in Akira in any substantive way, and mostly served to allow the story to unfold. No one in their right mind would suggest an Akira 2 just because you could carry the character over. But such a thing is assumed in American comics all the time.

    3. Comic books are unsatisfyingly short. After actively searching out a source, finding a comic book shop, and driving to it to get the latest copy of Big Sweaty Guy with a Gun: Reborn, you would expect to be have at least some entertainment from it... right? Well, unless you found that rarity of American comics, the compilation, chances are it is 20 pages long, 1/2 of which are action tiles and need no reading, and which can be finished in about 7 minutes. And don't forget to tune in again next month when they release the next 7 minutes of the story. Either your story is going to have a plot that wouldn't challenge the teletubbies, or your reader is going to get bored and move on in the year and a half it takes to finish your storyline. In japan, compilations seem to be far more common than they are here, with many, many more pages to read. I have never seen a japanese comic anywhere near as short as ours, page for page. It's just not worth bothering to spend 20 minutes every month for a year picking up a comic that you are going to read in 7... but picking up one of those ubiquitous manga in 30 seconds while shopping, and reading it for 2 hours? That's not a bad deal.

    Sadly, none of the above seem to be changing any time soon. Plot driven comics with accessable characters served out in meals not bites? Sadly, not while the big two are still in charge.

  19. Because of Japanese Literacy by elliotj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No joke, the Japanese read more comics because of their lower rates of literacy.

    No, this isn't because they're stupid or their education system is poor, it's because of the complexities of their written alphabets. The Japanese have 4 written alphabets in regular use: 2 phonetic ones, hiragana and katakana; the chinese alphabet, kanji; and the english alphabet, romanji.

    The problem is that the more high-brow the text, the more likely it is to be written in kanji. Kanji is a one-symbol-is-one-word system. You have to have a bloody large vocabulary to make any sense of it.

    These comics tend to be written in one of the phonetic kanas (hiragana or katakana), so they're easy to read and accessible to anybody with a gradeschool education. This makes them more popular.

    Just imagine if all English books were written in Shakespearean english, or worse Old English. How popular would comic books be with adults then?

  20. Re:Child Porn by cgenman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ok, this is a common theme with people who don't understand the Japanese, so I'll field it.

    You take a generation of children. You make them all dress the same. You emphasize gender differences in clothing, to make sure nobody accidently becomes attracted to members of the same sex. You do this throughout the entire period a person develops genitals, develops sexual feelings, hits puberty, falls in love, enters the most intense period of sexual excitation in their lives, peaks, then slowly eases off that peak. Only then do you let the opposite sex wear whatever they want. I can guarentee you just made a double-digit percentage of that group a fetishist of whatever clothing that opposite sex group wore. Women are lucky (sort of) in this situation because they don't peak until significantly after such a time when their opposite sex group can change clothing, and therefore generally don't develop this fetish.

    And, of course now the only people wearing thoes fetishized clothes are age 6-19 year old girls. But it isn't really about the children, it's about the clothes. My mother (japanese) looked like she was 12 until the day she turned 50. If you're attracted to 14 year old japanese girls, chances are you would be every bit as attracted to a 35 year old japanese woman in a schoolgirl outfit. Without falling onto all look same stereotypes, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the two apart.

    Schoolgirls in manga isn't about child pornography, it's a deeply rooted schoolgirl uniform fetish. It's one of the more powerful fetishes I've come across (though I don't have it, thankfully), and it is one that we are going to pass onto our children if we persist with these rediculous school uniform rules we have popping up around the country.

  21. Did you read the article? by Dhericean · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The article was not about the few the Manga titles that get imported to the USA from Japan. But rather the state of the industry in Japan and how ubiquitous comics are in Japan. Also the fact that the majority of manga is in very thick, low quality, cheap volumes that are read and disposed of (like a newspapers or cheap paperbacks) rather than the expensive pamphlets of the US (oops my WEF roots are showing).

    Also you're dismissal of the entire Manga industry on the basis of Ranma 1/2 is the equivalent of dismissing the publishing industry based upon romance novels, or the film industry based upon childrens movies like "Home Alone" and "Free Willy". If you don't like one example it's not a case for condeming the entire medium. But then I guess straw men are much easier than real opponents to knock down.

    The success of Cerebus is actually similar to that of Manga in that it is the collected volumes not the original comics that are the final repository. Also Dave Sim has control of his creation which is a very rare thing in the US comic industry. His story also has a specific goal and will finish soon. This is extreemly rare in the US industry and more than anything leads to the repetition and unenven quality which is why a large number of people stop reading comics after a certain time.

    In Japan Rumiko Takahashi, responsible (you may prefer culpable) for Ranma, has created 4 major series the first three of which reached conclusions and stopped (the fourth is still ongoing). Rather than the concept becoming stale and repetitive she finished and started another new story. Also her stories are about the characters. Whilst the situations provide the background for the drama and conflict it is the characters which make people want to read them.

    Whilst the best of American comics may reach this level sometimes it is normally in only one small area (superheroes) which do not appeal to a great number of people. In Japan the breadth of the subjects of manga are those of any literature and so most people can find subjects that are interesting to them. So whilst areas of this may go through peaks and troughs as a while it continues in strength.

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  22. They had me until that literacy crap too by Rayonic · · Score: 4, Informative

    Everyone should check out the Seven Myths about Literacy in the United States. Turns out that the perception of American literacy rates rapidly sliding downhill is largely due to (surprise surprise) media frenzy.

    But I guess the hackneyed old tradition of U.S. bashing is still in vogue. Will it ever go out of style?

  23. Culture bias... by badasscat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Even those who purport to understand Japanese culture around here (and then proceed to talk about manga as child porn) are so off base I just had to act...

    The Japanese consider their culture to be nearly impenetrable to westerners. Even if you go in with an extremely open mind, there are many aspects to the culture that we, as westerners, could probably never understand. Simple direct observation of the culture from within (yes, you have to actually *go* to Japan to understand this) along with said open mind doesn't hurt, though, and having a Japanese wife certainly helps too.

    Looking at manga in terms of western comics is completely misguided from the start. Manga in Japan is simply the way quite a lot of literature is presented to the public; it's the accepted method of reading most less serious fiction and non-fiction for both children *and* adults. How-to books, instruction manuals, even novels come packaged in the same artful style and the variety of subjects is endless. There's not what you would even call a "manga industry" in Japan in the same way as there is a "comic industry" in the US - the manga industry is simply the Japanese publishing industry. They obviously have non-illustrated books too, but illustrated literature is a standard, accepted form of literature in a way that it is not here. Manga in Japan is quite literally everywhere - it's not something you go to the "manga shop" to buy. You couldn't get away from it if you tried.

    Many of the causes for manga's success listed in the linked article are actually effects. The fact that there is so much variety in subject matter is less a reason for success than it is an effect of the cultural acceptance of the legitimacy of illustrated literature. The Japanese are very visual people, and I would argue that their alphabet itself - which is itself entirely symbolic - is one of the root causes for this. In other Asian countries you see similar phenomena (illustrated literature is very popular in Korea as well, for example). The Japanese are used to looking at iconography and determining meaning from it - it is necessary for them to get through life - whereas we largely are not. I would argue our brains are wired more for conceptual analysis than iconographic analysis; we assign meaning from text and speech rather than visuals.

    It's also completely untrue that there's no collector culture in Japan. The fact that many "manga" books are disposable doesn't mean they all are. You may buy a disposable paperback at an airpot to read on an airplane here but that doesn't mean that hardcover first printing of "A Farewall to Arms" you've got at home is in the same category. Again, this just shows a lack of understanding and acknowledgement of the fact that the "manga industry" is simply the publishing industry in Japan - the variety in manga extends not just to the subject matter but also to the durability of the literature. My wife has illustrated books of Miyazaki stories that she's had since she was a kid, and most Japanese people I know are the same way. And these are not even otaku - hardcore fans - who actively collect as much of this stuff as they can.

    Anyway, the main point is that it's a mistake to look at anything in Japan through western eyes. You need to at least *try* to look through Japanese eyes, as impossible as that is. There are things you can at least begin to understand if you attempt to delve deeply into the culture, but you'll never get close if you insist on looking through our perspective.

  24. 'Slices of Time' by Tsu-na-mi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Japan is a nation that relies almost entirely on mass transit. People spend a lot of time on the train, or the bus, or waiting for the train or bus. Rather than sit around and be totally bored, many fill the time with reading manga. More recently, people are just as likely to sit and play games or message friends on their cell phones.

    For the same reason the super-high-tech japanese cell phones and DoCoMo features haven't really caught on here in the US. While this might also work in New York City, the vast majority of the US is much more spread out. Most Americans own cars, and few outside major cities use mass transit. Even less use it for trips longer than a half-hour/hour (which is common in Japan). The critical mass for this sort of thing just isn't there.

    --
    I've built up so much character I have an alter-ego
  25. Re:An answer... by Yuan-Lung · · Score: 3, Informative

    Also, hentai is the sickest thing around. Seriously, what kind of warped people think up tentacle rape porn, and then proceed to actually DRAW it, frame by frame?

    What kind of people dream up dripping candel wax on tied up people? or using toturing devices in love making? What kind of people would think of using the rectum for sex? What kind of people would then go and draw them cell by cell / page by page?

    Different people from different culture may get off from differnt things. What one finds as the norm may be seen as sickening by someone with a different prespective. Granted, some fantasies may be more disturbing then others, but I don't have a problem with people expressing themselves through drawing, sculpturing or other forms creation.

    Having said that, the term "hen tai", literally "changed behavior", translats to "pervert/perverted/perversion". That should hint you off what those would contain.

  26. Re:An answer... by RoundTop-VJAS · · Score: 3, Informative
    Well, I hate to point it out as it will burst your bubble...

    But the Marquis De Sade, who lived in france in the time leading up the the french revolution, and during it, was a worse sicko than most people would ever think of. He is where we get the term "sadist" from. Frankly there is a large subculture around the world that goes for rectal penetration, candle wax, and alot worse (electrocution, beastiality, necrophelia to name a few).

    Some hentai caters to these people.

    As far as the "tentacle monster" genre, there is a reason for that. There is a censor group in japan that deemed that A) you can't show pubic hair, and B) you can't show penises. To get around these censors the artists removed pubic hair (which had the effect of making the characters looks younger, although japanese women tend to look young in the first place), and rather than having a man having sex with these women, they used phallic replacements..and thus was born the tentacle monster.

    For a good analysis of this, listen to the commentary track on the La Blue Girl Returns DVD (unfortunately priced very high).

    --
    RoundTop

  27. American comic publishers choose to fail by TrentC · · Score: 3, Interesting

    American comics "fail" because American comic book publishers are hopelessly wedded to the superhero genre and are generally unwilling to take risks that will alienate their core "fanboy" market, a market that is predominantly male and ranges from teenagers to young adults. This is the conclusion I've come to after reading comics for nineteen years, reading trade publications for fourteen years, and actually running a comic book store for two and a half years.

    They are stuck on the 22- to 32-page format that currently runs for about $3 each. $3 a pop for 32 pages? Even with the price of novels rising, a 200- to 300-page novel is still only about double that price. Granted, the paper quality is better in a comic book, but even though I can finish a 300-page novel in three to four hours of uninterrupted reading, it takes me about 15 to 20 minutes to read the typical comic book -- less if half of the pages are full-page "splash" panels.

    The state of the industry for writers and artists at the big publishers isn't much better than the state of the industry for the music artists that Slashdot seems to rally behind whenever the RIAA opens its collective mouth. Writers and artists are seen as interchangeable cogs, to be hired and dismissed at the editor's discretion. In the 90's, creator-owned projects were starting to gain widespread acceptance in the comic book market; before then, creator-owned projects were thought of the purview of people who didn't have the talent to do "real" comic book work ("If he's such a great artist, why hasn't he ever drawn X-Men?") but now the trend is starting to backslide. There are small publishers that are willing to do primarily non-superhero, creator-owned books. Also note that I refer to these as "small" publishers.

    Comic book publishers are unwilling to do any serious marketing or distribution outside of the circle of comic book retailers. In an essay, one comic book writer wondered how many copies of Fury (a recent revival of James Bond-esque Marvel Comics superspy Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.) Marvel Comics could sell if they stripped all of the comic-book art off of the cover of the book, put "FURY" in big bold letters on the cover with a .45 pistol and a tattered bullet-ridden American flag on the front, published in a normal novel-sized trade paperback form instead of the oversized comic-book TPB form, and got it into traditional bookstores under "Military Fiction" where people interested in military fiction might actually go to look for it.

    Where are the Harry Potter-style comics for younger readers? What about comics for girls, like the Nancy Drew books my wife used to read incessantly when she was a child? There was a great comic back in the 90's called The Second Life of Doctor Mirage which had such a strong female readership that it actually had a soap opera actor as a guest character in the book. It died shortly after the publisher Valiant Comics decided it had to revamp its line to appeal to the fanboy market; now Valiant is owned by Acclaim which just uses the characters for videogames like X-O Manowar, the Turok series and Shadowman.

    The only reason I still read and love comics is because there are stories there I can't find anywhere else. And I'm not talking about the superhero stuff, either.

    Jay

  28. Re:It has to do with their literacy by amuro98 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Japan has a higher literacy rate than the US - despite their writing system.

    Hiragana is taught to kids first, and doesn't contain that many more unique characters than our own 26 letter alphabet. Katakana is simply an alternative phonetic set. Yeah, you're learning more unique characters than you'll need for English or most of the European languages, but big deal.

    You can write anything in Japanese with hiragana or katakana. Kanji are borrowed characters from Chinese, and have a few difficulties. First off, most kanji have multiple readings, so even if you know what the character means, you may still "say" it wrong. This means that you're basically stuck just memorizing the character and its readings. Obviously, this becomes easier once you see them in use.

    High school seniors are expected to know the basic set of 1500 characters. This is what you will need to be able to read a newspaper as well (as compared to the US where our newspapers are geared towards 8th graders...)

    College undergraduates are expected to learn an additional 500-1000 characters, based on their area of study. If you're going for an advanced degree, you can expect another 1 or 2 thousand more characters - again, based on your area of study. I've met Japanese who have studied medicine and know over 5000 characters.

    Getting back to comics... There are comics for all different age and interest groups. Comics aimmed at younger readers will include small hiragana characters next to more advanced kanji to help the reader (this writing is called furigana.) However, comics aimmed at older readers, say college-aged or older, will contain *no* furigana unless it's a really rare reading or word.

    While it does take some getting used to, I find that I can read much faster in Japanese than I can in English. This is partially due to the use of kanji, which condenses many words down into 1-4 characters.

    And, yes, there have been studies conducted on this. People who are fluent in multiple languages were found to be able to read material faster in Japanese or Chinese, than English. One reason is the sheer number of characters each language uses in its writing.