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Buying a Small, Light Linux Notebook Computer?
"I have no Windows software and will not be running any, not even via WINE. I have no
desire to go through the hassle of purchasing software I'm not going to use and
then fighting to get a token rebate that doesn't actually equate to the cost of a Windows license. Nor am I interested in buying a machine that was purchased with a Windows license, and simply having Windows erased with no refund given.
So far I've found iDot Computers, who will sell laptops with no OS installed. Unfortunately, their lightest,
smallest offering is a hefty 2.8kg brick, 3cm bigger than the iBook in width and depth. What I really want is something comparable to a Toshiba Libretto or Sony VAIO R505--except that neither of those companies want to sell me a machine without Windows.
I'm sure plenty of Slashdot readers have faced the same problem--what's the solution?"
http://emperorlinux.com/
... I say you just buy the machine you want. Don't want windows? Throw the disc out ... you want a computer right? Don't turn everything into a political statement.
The benefit? You get laptops with full knowledge of exactly what does and what doesn't work under linux.
The catch? You pay the same (or more) as you would in the high street and don't get the shiny Windows CD.
Frankly
Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
I'm in a similar situation, only I've never owned a Mac. Anyway, I think I've decided upon buying a 12" powerbook (and yes, I read the reviews of them). Not sure if that's too rich for your blood but it sounds like a good deal to me.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
that's what I did. it did come with win98, but I deleted it right off.
just be careful when buying used- I made the mistake of buying from a tradeshow and it took 2 months before I could get a usable one.
I did end up with a gateway solo2150 which is working pretty well.
if you're not playing games, a 600 mhz will work fine. I have kde 3.1 and openoffice on debian and it runs with little lag.
Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
www.powernotebooks.com
windows tax not required. was in a slashdot article awhile back.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
http://zork.net/refund/
Google 'windows refund'--it's a work in progress with little result so far.
Called them today looking at laptops. Told her I did not want to pay for XP , she told me that removing it would void the waranty on the laptop! She suggested that I buy a bigger drive and do a split partion. I was disgusted that I Was going to be charged even more just to run linux. I am not even sure how software can void a hardware warranty. The call ended with them still having a laptop and me still looking.
Papa Legba come and open the gate
Try http://www.powernotebooks.com I bought my laptop from there and am very pleased. I did not buy windows with it because they give you the option. It runs linux great and they have a wide selection to choose from. From light to mobile workstation. Check it out.
I recently switched to a new 12 inch iBook running yellow dog linux, and I have to say its great. Although it may not be as portable some windows superslims, its battery life, and performance make it a superb choice. Also, i have had zero driver issues with my iBook, which is a lot more than I can say about install redhat on my old thinkpad.
maybe you could find some usful info here too http://www.linux-laptop.net/
Since you've ruled out the iBook, I'd suggest that you look for a laptop that meets your requirements on the used market (eBay, local want ads, computer resellers, outlets that deal in refurbished and formerly leased equipment). Someone else will have already paid the Windows Tax for you, and the money you save will more than compensate for the time you'll have to spend scraping Windows off the hard drive and installing your operating system of choice.
k.
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
For more information about Linux on laptops, go to the web page about Linux on laptops; help can be found in the Usenet newsgroups comp.os.linux.misc or comp.os.linux.hardware
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
Neocomputers.com will sell you a custom laptop. You can also purchase it without Windows on it.
Here is a link to the custom laptop page.
Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
There are also a number of 2-4 pound laptops from Dell, HP, Gateway, etc.; that's what I have right now. They are considerably lighter than the iBooks, have comparable or better battery life, and are much, much faster. They often don't include the CD/DVD in the main laptop, but frankly, I prefer that choice; it's easy to plug a bus-powered CD/DVD into the USB2 or FW port.
You will effectively not find a notebook where you don't pay the Windows tax: the big manufacturers just bundle it that way, and if anything goes wrong with the machine, they will have you run stuff under Windows before even accepting it for warranty return (I have been there). Apple is no better: you can't get their HW without their OS, and they won't even support their laptops connecting to a non-Apple wireless access point.
I bought a Dell Inspiron and finally got a Linux refund($125) but it took me hours on the phone and educating them. Two of my friends have also bought Inspirons lately and got their refunds with less hassle so things seem to be changing. However, when you call Dell the first time you probably still get a confident "no" from several people until you get to the right person -- just call back, talk to someone else, and be persistent until you succeed.
Technically the oem pays for Windows. This is why its hard to return it. Yes, I relize that most OEM's just pass the cost to the consumer but its not that much since OEM's buy in bulk.
Dell, HP, and Toshiba also get massive bulk discounts in laptop parts which makes up for the price. Dell's are cheap because of this. Go to their website and look at entry level pc's for just $700. Its cheaper to buy a Windows based laptop from Dell and reformat the drive and install Linux then to buy from some small no name company that specialised in Linux but does not get bulk pricing.
Just pay the extra $25 dollars. IBM only pays $15 per copy of Windows for each pc from what I read back in the anti trust trial when ms strong armed it to kill os/2. The price has gone up for Windows alot but its no big deal and its nothing compared to the amount Windows cost in a store. I am sure the money saved from buying from a big outlet is probably hundreds of dollars so more money is being saved.
Or if you hate ms and refuse to support them go buy a powerbook from apple.
They are pricy but have been known for over a decade to be supperior quality. Apple invented alot of the cool stuff in laptops today. The finger pads on laptops for mouse movements is an example of apple's inventions. You can run Linux on a mac as well as have a big selection of software to choose from with MacOSX. Adobe photoshop, IE, MS-Office, games, etc. Another benefit of the mac is that the linux distro's will work better and be less buggy then intel ones because of the limited hardware. They don't need to support 3,000 peripherals from god knows where. They are less buggy and standard configurations are heavily tested by the mac-linux community. This is one of the arguements still used for Unix over Linux. It is heavily integrated with the hardware.
http://saveie6.com/
Doesn't make any difference anyway. Who's to say that you didn't boot it up one time to make sure it works, then install Linux/bsd/whatever. The bottom line is, it makes no difference whether you boot into windows at all, because there's no way of knowing if you did or not from the OEM's perspective. The only one who knows that for sure is YOU.
Metamatic -
... so it worked for me) :
Sounds like you want a used machine. I would suggest looking on ebay and/or the computer refurb houses for a machine that is maybe a year old, go with a high quality manufacturer and it could still be under warranty (I personally like Dell, I have three within arms reach of me, counting laptops and my server.)
The only issue I see going with hardware that is a year+ old is the 1394 connection - but if it was top of the line a year ago it should have that connection (my last Latitude C800 did and it was a year and a half old.)
Note that you should be able to find a one year old machine for about half of what it cost new, but remember that today's hardware costs less than top of the line gear did a year ago and is much faster. Based on what I remember, you should be able to get whatever was top of the line a year ago for the same price as the entry level stuff new, but the entry level stuff is going to be about 1.5x as fast as the one year old top of the line machine.
I am not saying it will give you the best bang for the buck, but it will satisify your entire request. Personally I would buy a new entry level machine from Dell (or your favorite company) for about $750 delivered and then toss the XP CD / license in your closet. Add some aftermarket RAM and networking gear and you are all set - for about $900 including the 802.11b.
I just checked, Dell has a laptop (the Inspiron 2650C) on sale for $700 after rebate (yes, rebates suck but I did get mine back
14" screen XGA
128M RAM (www.crucial.com)
20G hd
24x CD
16MB DDR 4X AGP NVIDIA GeForce2 Go(TM)Vid
Floppy
Integrated 56k modem and NIC
1 year warranty.
If you didn't want to jack with the warranty ($150) you could get the 802.11b PCMCIA card and a 802.11b router (I didn't bother to read the details) instead. Brings the price of the system to $850.
Upgrade to a 15" screen for $50.
Nice.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
You're right. As this page points out, their machines come with WinXP Home Edition from the OEM. They just happen to blow it away and ensure that all of the hardware works very well with Linux, and your choice of distro is installed for you out of the box. They also provide a year of tech support, hence the markup.
Note: I have no problem with Emporer Linux's business model, and wish them success. However, I don't think they'll meet the submitter's requirement to never pay for Windows.
My legal education, in nifty podcast format
IBM ThinkPads work well with Linux. You might have to sell the farm to afford one, but they're quality.
I have a Sony U3 that I just got in Japan, and I tried to install Red Hat on it. Ha. Red Hat had no idea what was going on, it couldn't find a sound card, anything to use the extra buttons, jog dials etc. and the resolution was terrible. Needless to say, I put my M$ back on, cried, and then slipped it into my shirt pocket.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
If you've decided to acquiesce on the "no-Windows" stance, I'd suggest looking at the CNET Notebook section for info. There are sections are for value as well as thin and light notebooks, among others, and looking through those sections is a lot quicker than navigating through the separate laptop sections on each manufacturer's website.
My take on notebooks (currently); wait. Banias is around the corner (March 12 last I heard) bringing +3 hour battery time coupled with excellent performance (it's easy to find slower laptops with significantly longer battery times though). Cost will be an issue (if you're looking at sub-$1500), so I'd suggest waiting even longer after Banias. Having performance, price and portability all in one laptop is about to become possible though; all you need to do is hold off from purchasing for a bit more.
Half right, half wrong...
Apple didn't invent it, they licensed it from George Gerpheide. Apple was the first to market a laptop with a touchpad.
If you want a source for this tidbit, click away.
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
You can get a new Apple with Yellow Dog Linux preinstalled.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Microsoft site licenses usually require companies to pay for machines which don't have Windows on them.
Depends on the license that companies have, but not generally true.
----- -----
I can only imagine that Microsoft makes the same requirements on computer vendors when they sell machines without Windows, or with some other OS. So even if you buy a new machine without Windows, you will probably still be lining Microsoft's pockets buying such a machine.
Not true anymore. Microsoft USED to force OEMs to pay OS licenses for every PC shipped, regardless of whether every PC actually has Windows installed on it.
Microsoft and the U.S. DOJ signed a consent decree in 1994 that halted this 'per processor' license fee (among other practices alleged to be improper).
OEMs pay licenses only for machines shipped.
Now, between volume rates, advertising allowances, joint marketing & partnering arrangements, licenses for other products, etc, etc,. MS still has incredible licensing flexibiliy, and due to its market control, massive power over those OEMs. But no licenses for every machine shipped.
Here's a direct link.
Also, here is a very good user discussion forum concerning the P2000 laptop, which actually has a seperate forum for the linux users, so you can check up on what you can expect:
http://www.leog.net/fujp_forum/
On a sidenote, I can say that Fijutsu will *not* ship any laptop without the windows license. In fact, when you send in the system for repair and they need to replace the hard drive (which contains the repair image), you have to pay for a new license.
The built in mouse has but one button, so you must ctrl->click to do a right click...that is annoying as heck. So, purchase an external mouse whatever you do.
The "mouse" is a touchpad, isn't it? Many PC touchpad drivers have a feature that tapping in the upper-right corner is a right click. Hasn't somebody made such a driver for Macs or for Linux on Mac?
I don't own a Mac or Powerbook, but I wish I did.
When you buy online, most companies such as Dell, IBM, Compaq, etc. will force you to buy some software package.
:)
If you, however, call them on the phone and talk to one of their sales reps, you can have the bundled software removed (including the OS).
I would recommend a Dell, or if you have the money for it, an IBM Thinkpad. I love my ThinkPad.
You just have to talk to a real person, which I understand is sometimes difficult for some computer literate people, but you have to work to get what you want in life.
- A non-apple notebook depreciates 1/(2^n) where n is the time in years you bought it.
- It is better to buy a really good quality one, as they are much better put together.
I develop on linux, but can't wean myself off editplus (although I like kate a lot). I have just bought a couple of toshiba 7200s for about $600. With the money I have saved, they now have 802.11,10/100, and 320MB, 40GB. Ultralight magnesium frame, made in japan quality, and still the biggest screen on an ultralight (13.3 XGA). Both dualboot 2000/7.3. One mainly 2000, one mainly 7.3, but redundancy is useful. And buying second hand means you are not paying anything to the he-who-cannot-be-named.Humorous signatures are over-rated.
I just replaced a R505 with a 12" PowerBook. In every respect, the Apple is the superior machine:
The R505 series of Vaio feel very very cheap. The nice metal cover that had been on the older series Vaios has been replaced by a run-of-the-mill piece of plastic. After a year, the screen hinge barely works, and the power adapter socket will only make an adequate connection when I hold it just right.
On paper, the R505 is smaller, but it doesn't feel any smaller. The way the 12"PB is hinged makes it open in a very compact way - unlike the R505 which seems to need a great deal more room to fully open. On a train or plane, the 12" PB can be held on the tray table with the screen at a reasonable angle even with the seat reclined in front of you. No chance of doing this with the Vaio.
Finally, the PB12" is much much smaller when you consider its relative size with the DVD drive installed. On the Vaio, you need to plug the unit into its base to get the DVD drive - doubling the size and weight of the thing. With the Apple, it's just there, and just works.
You say you're fine with a PCMCIA 802.11 solution, but have you really used one of these for any length of time? The antenna portion of the card makes for an awkward fit - especially compared with the elegance of the Mac's built-in airport.
Don't get me started on OSX. You want to run Linux why? Honestly, with X11 installed within OSX, I'm finding it hard to find reasons to run Linux.
According to Gateway's testomany in the MS court case : "Gateway also faulted another provision of the new licensing agreement, which requires PC makers to pay a Windows royalty on every PC shipped, even if it didn't include Windows. To top it off, to qualify for market development funds, PC makers have to put a Microsoft OS on every PC. As a result, trying to sell non-Windows PCs, or even PCs without software, is a financial loser for computer makers." http://news.com.com/2100-1001-868413.html
Sounds like a Transmeta device would be right on target. You can then avoid both windows and intel.
http://www.antelopetech.com
http://www.transmeta.com
>> I saw some demo laptops and they took their sweet time loading ANYTHING.
You better shut up if your only experience with the iBook came from watching a demo. I am using OS X on a 700 MHz iBook for programming C++ and Java, browsing, playing music, editing graphics, etc, and it feels faster than a Sony Vaio with more than twice clock rate.
The $999 iBook comes with a proper 3D card (ATI Radeon 7500) and 16 MB dedicated VRAM, while some of much more expensive Vaio models use cheap Intel integrated graphics with only shared VRAM. Personally, I wouldn't touch a Dell with a 10" pole, having known 3 people all had discovered serious problem with their Dell laptops within weeks of purchasing.
While there are Wintel laptops lighter than the iBook, none has longer battery life and full features. Another huge advantage of the Apple portables is that they all come free with much more best-of-class software than any of the Windows or Linux machines: iPhotos, iMovies, iTunes, iCal, iSync, iChat, and so on.
If you are a programmer and loves play with Unix and open standards, you simply can't get a better deal than Mac OS X. For instance, OS X comes with gcc 3.1 enhanced by Apple to handle Objective C / C++ on top of standard C / C++, and there are dozens of other tools that allow you to write and debug native Carbon, Cocoa, QuickTime, OpenGL, or terminal applications. Many popular open source applications (such as Perl, Ruby, Apatche, X11) are preloaded, and others (like MySql, PostgreSQL) can be downloaded and installed with a few mouse clicks. Project Builder and Interface Builder are free and much more powerful than tools on any other Unix platforms including Linux. In contrast, MS Visual Studio.NET costs up to $3000.
Fujitsu P-2110 - 860 Mhz Crusoe Processor - 256 Megs ram - 20 Gig disk - 8 meg Rage Mobility Chip - 2 USB - 1 Firewire - 1 PCMCIA Type 2/3 port - Removable DVD/CD-RW drive - built in 802.11b I've succesfully installed and used for months and months Slackware 7.1 and 80. I have read the forums and found that several people there use Debian and Gentoo. This laptop is about 11 inches wide and 7 inches deep and about one inch high. It's about 2-3 lbs without the burner in it. Wicked laptop!
http://www.aslab.com/
ASL Linux is great. I have a Monarch laptop. It is a ~3.5 lbs with a nice XGA 13 inch screen. Detachable base for CD/battery/floppy adds another 3 lbs. Mine is pretty old, but I asume the new ones are pretty nice. Good service, only install Windows if you pay extra. They set up partitions however you want, even networking. My laptop has 1 pc card slot, I use it for wireless at home.
I have bought a few other orders from these guyst (desktop systems). They will gladly dual boot your system and configure to your needs. They have been around for a while as well. I think I bought my first desktop from them four years back.
Ed
If you go to www.dfsdirectsales.com -- not the Dell outlet site, but the Dell Financial Services direct sales site -- you'll find systems that Dell leased out, and has since taken back. Because Windows was "licensed" to the original user and cannot be transferred, these systems are all sold without operating systems! (The Microsoft tax has already been paid; you don't have to pay it again.)
I don't think you're to beat a 12 inch iBook or Powerbook for small and light, though, and if "[p]erformance isn't a major concern," why are you worried about it enough to rule out a Mac?
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
Qli sells new laptops with Linux preinstalled. Their prices range from one thousand to over two, for a fully loaded machine. They don't sell any that are tiny, like the Vaio, but there are other companies that do sell refurbished laptops and small form factor laptops with no Windows tax. I chose Qli because I was looking for a particular feature set, and because one of their installation options is Gentoo, which is my current favorite distribution.
I got an 1800MHz, 512MB (2GB max), 15.1" LCD, 20Gb, DVD/CDRW laptop for a shade over $1800. It has onboard ethernet, three USB (one of which is USB 2.0), onboard firewire, and a single CardBus slot. It was, practically, the perfect configuration I was looking for; the price was reasonable, and (as I said) they offered Gentoo as an install option.
My experience with Qli has been good. I agreed that they would install Gentoo 1.4, which is technically still beta, and this was Qli's first 1.4 laptop, so I had to do some work after the machine arrived to get it fully configured. I would expect that if you chose Gentoo 1.2, Mandrake, or Redhat, it would arrive fully configured. Qli provides a large number of installation options, and money you pay for the distribution of your choice (which varies) goes to the distribution.
The best thing about Qli, IME, was the customer service. The staff are extremely knowledgable and helpful, and are good about responding to support requests. They have a good understanding of kernel configurations, from which kernel modules are required to support which features to various configuration options.
I'm also very happy with the hardware. Although it isn't yet supported by Linux, I was pleasantly surprised that the laptop came with an unadvertised MMC/SD slot.
There are a couple of hangups with my particular hardware, but none of it is Qli's fault. The laptop is entirely ACPI, and ACPI support in Linux is immature. Consequently, I can't suspend the laptop (!) -- yet. OpenGL is proved to be a bear to get working, but this is due to my choice of distributions; apparently, Redhat on this laptop has full accellerated GL support out of the box. There is an onboard WinModem, but we know about those.
In summary, I can recommend Qli. You need to evaluate your own requirements, and then send them an email before you buy. They'll give you status reports on various configurations and recommend a system for you.
[Disclaimer] I do not work for Qli, and I don't receive any compensation for recommending them. My only relationship with Qli is that I've recently purchased a laptop from them.
While it's nice that YDL comes on the machine as a gimme, the machines cost the exact same amount as that same machine at Apple without YDL. Plus, the machines come with OS X on them. So you are still paying an "Apple tax" (which admittedly isn't anywhere as invasive as the MS tax-- since MS strongarmed 3rd party vendors into paying for a MS Windows license on every machine, while Apple simply refuses to sell its own hardware without bundling its OS).
So yes, if you plan to run YDL, get your machine through TerraSoft. But my personal thought is that YDL is one of the least appealing Linux distros you'll find. Debian has more recent versions of some packages (my personal grudge: Ruby -- YDL has this at 1.6.4, whereas everyone else has this at 1.6.7+). YDL also has a much slimmer list of available packages than most distros. Gentoo has a perfectly usable PPC distribution for those that truly desire the full Linux experience.
Personally I can't imagine purchasing Apple hardware just to run Linux. If you allow non-Free software on your system, you'll be continually disappointed by which things are not available as binaries for your PPC-based system. Of course, if you are okay with non-Free software, you might be just as happy running OS X. But if you are a hardcore Linux fan or Free Software zealot, Apple hardware is no better than buying any old Windows system in terms of the extra expense.
I do not have a signature
I have a prostar laptop. I bought it with Windows. I have a second disk that I've installed Mandrake Linux (8.0, 8.1, 9.0).
In looking for a replacement I called prostar and they said they would sell me a machine without an OS and give me a discount of $70.
The machine I have is pretty heavy, but they do have some lighter models.
They're quite a bit cheaper than Dell, HP, etc..
http://www.pro-star.com/