Mouse Not Required?

Chromose asks: "Being a system administrator by day, and coder/artist/gamer by night, my hands and wrists get their fair share of exercise around the clock. I've had lumps on the back of my hands off and on for a couple years now and just recently discovered they are ganglion cysts. And although pain and stress has been minimum up to now, I worry of what continuing everyday keyboard and mouse stress will lead to. Introducing FingerWorks. I stumbled across their iGesture Pad on ThinkGeek the other day and started digging for reviews. What reviews I have found exclaim how remarkable the products work, but not many reviews could be found. It sounds like the answer to my search for relief, and it sounds too good to be true. So I'm asking, who out there has used these things and are they truly a revolution in the making?" Yes, ThinkGeek is part of the Sinister VA Software Kieretsu, but if you aren't worried about it, then neither am I.

Comments

Well, here's a review...

[Eneff]

http://www.meetthegeeks.org/ourreview/fingerworksi gesture/

From what I can tell, it seems to be testing out as alpha and might not be quite ready for prime time.

TouchPad

[Crazy Ukrainian]

How exactly is the touchpad on thinkgeek an improvement? You're still resting your wrist on something and moving something else. Seems oddly similar to a mouse, but I can't quite figure out why...oh I do wonder.

Re:TouchPad

[E1v!$]

Ummm, you're not moving ANYTHING else. I think that's kinda the point.

0 force allows you to change/reduce the amount of force used to type on the keyboard this == reduced stress (in theory). The changes in the angle of the hands alone from most other keyboards should yield some short term improvement. (and with altering the types of keyboards he uses could yield long term improvement)

Re:TouchPad

[cgenman]

While it is true that you are not moving the keyboard / mouse, you are still moving your hands, which weigh significantly more than a little piece of plastic. Likewise, while tapping on a hard piece of plastic in theory takes less energy than tapping on moving keys, the keys also serve to deaden the impact. I tend to find tapping angrily on solid surfaces to become uncomfortable rather quickly, and would doubt long-term use would be good for the joints.

If you are looking for something ergonomic to reduce the strain on your wrists, use your keyboard navigation as much as possible, and when not possible try a trackball. Assuming you're in Windows land (which is why you would need a mouse), the Kensington Expert Mouse has a wonderful series of chordable buttons that can be mapped to basically any function you might do frequently, giving you a palette of 35 imput commands per program. Plus you don't move your arm, wrist, or anything but your fingers when you point.

ahhhhh!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

"my hands and wrists get their fair share of exercise around the clock."

Must resist urge to make pr0n comments.....

Re:ahhhhh!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

He said clock.

Nomenclature

[Flamerule]

Quoth Cliff:

Yes, ThinkGeek is part of the Sinister VA Software Kieretsu, but if you aren't worried about it, then neither am I.

Mmm... keiretsu, actually. You're unlikely to see an "ie" combination in Japanese.

Re:Nomenclature

[Anonymous Coward]

You're unlikely to see an "ie" combination in Japanese.

Rie Miyazawa?

You're right about the spelling of keiretsu, but "ie" (or, more correctly, "?ie") combinations certainly exist.

Re:Nomenclature

[YetAnotherLogin]

"iie", for example, means 'no'. But for the most part, yes, it is unlikely.

Re:Nomenclature

[Anonymous Coward]

Next time, don't try so hard. You're liable to sprain something.

nomenclature (nmn-klchr, n-mnkl-)
n.
1. A system of names used in an art or science: the nomenclature of mineralogy.
2. The procedure of assigning names to the kinds and groups of organisms listed in a taxonomic classification: the rules of nomenclature in botany.

Ganglion cysts are basically harmless

[eht]

As the page you posted says, without actually saying it, ganglion cysts are basically harmless, and unless cause you problems can be ignored, I've had them for several years and they come and go without any problems, one doctor I mentioned them to said I could get surgery, but they wouldn't be guaranteed not to come back, and the traditional method of removal used to be smashing them with the family bible.

Re:Ganglion cysts are basically harmless

[E-prospero]

I must concur with eht on with this one. My sister had a ganglion cyst removed from her wrist. The Doctor advised that there was nothing really to worry about, other than the purely cosmetic aspect. She had it removed anyway.

5 years later, the cyst has returned. Plus, she now has a lovely scar on her wrist from the original removal....

Russ %-)

Re:Ganglion cysts are basically harmless

[cei]

Yeah, I've had ganglion cysts for most of my life. Had one surgically removed when I was in 4th grade. 6 or 7 years later it was back and they drained it with a needle. At this point I've decided they don't bother me enough for me to pursue any further treatment. They might ache a bit in cold weather, and when I was playing bass regularly, my wrists could stiffen up a bit more, but it was bearable.

Re:Ganglion cysts are basically harmless

[SpaceLifeForm]

I agree. Having had ganglion cysts for a long time, I've used the smashing method when I needed to have a different pain in my wrist. It works.

Re:Ganglion cysts are basically harmless

[skware]

Heh, I was going to post the same thing, had them for several years, and I'm not willing to trade in the occasional pain of them in winter for the problems that may be worse from doing the family bible / small coin trick. When you work in IT, your hands are one of you greatest assests, without mine, I would find a way, but it would be so much tougher. I had to quit a trolley pushing job a long time ago due to gangelions, and they always seem to flare up around exams / times when I have a million assignments. :(

Other options

[Matt2000]

You can also get a trackball, I use the MS Trackball Explorer and work, and a regular mouse at home. Switches up the type of motion so your hand doesn't get so blown out.

Re:Other options

[Anonymous Coward]

I do the same thing (trackball at work, mouse at home), and can confirm it works well. Also, I try to use the keyboard instead of the mouse as much as possible, which I find works for me.

spelling

[Zach Garner]

...but if you aren't worried about it, then neither am I.

I think you mean "than neither am I."

Re:spelling

[Chacham]

Nope, "then" is correct, being it is not comparative.

However, with the comma, the word "then" could have been omitted.

Re:spelling

[OppressiveGiant]

......but if you aren't worried about it, then neither am I.

...I think you mean "than neither am I."

I think you mean "then neither am I."

"than" being for comparisons and all. Thank you Dan.

Re:spelling

[Zach Garner]

It's a joke. Slashdot "editors" use than in place of then quite often.

Re:spelling

[jon doh!]

don't you mean "then in place of than"?

Re:spelling

[jo_ham]

How did the parent post get any "insightful" mods at all?

Bloody hell. Bush is winning. Never misunderestimate the unliteracy of supposed geeks.

"then" is the correct word there, although it could have been ommited entirely because of the comma.

Re:spelling

[ChaoticLimbs]

what's worse than a spelling nazi? An illiterate spelling nazi!

Emacs Gestures?

[glenstar]

After looking at this, I am sure glad I don't use Emacs. Although,one really has to wonder how the Vim gestures would look...

Re:Emacs Gestures?

[one9nine]

Basiclly, there are just two. The first involves making a fist and waving it at the screen and the second also involves a fist in front of your screen with your middle finger extended.

Actually vi is really cool once you get the hang of it.

Re:Emacs Gestures?

[glenstar]

:-)

Actually, I was thinking of something like:

Esc ->Tap 3 fingers -> draw a curly line with middle finger = set syntax=python

Obligatory porn joke

[Cokelee]

Sure, it was all from typing . . .

gestures on laptop touchpad?

[greywire]

This looks like a great idea. To bad it costs, what, almost $200? Could something like this be done on a laptop touchpad? Granted its much smaller and so the gestures couldnt be as complex, but it would be a neat little software hack...

Re:gestures on laptop touchpad?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Could something like this be done on a laptop touchpad?

No reason why not. The Sony Vaio has a few simple gestures with its touchpad. No reason why the 'pad couldn't be bigger to accomodate whole hand gestures.

A bigger problem I've found is with different platforms. Using Opera at home, and IE at work, I'm always trying to 'rightclick-drag' to navigate. Not a real prob, just annoying.

Eye Trackers and such

[Oriumpor]

I really really really want an eye tracker myself, the cost has been prohibitive I have found for the lowly engineer. However, these might be helpful.

also the Ability hub has an interesting piece on accessibility.

The TrackIR GX looks interesting, although not as a mouse alternative, it can be used to make your neck hurt so you can script 17 actions with the movement of your head.

IBM has been working on an eye tracking solution, I remember seeing something on TechTV a while back, anyone know the progress on that?

Re:Eye Trackers and such

[bluGill]

I don't think eye trackers are such a good idea. I often find that I'm looking in one window, while typing in another. (I can touch type, I presume those who can't are looking at the keyboard, which will cause the eye tracker to track to the bottom for each key stroke) With my window manager's ability to have the window with focus under more useful windows I enjoy the ability to read in my help window exactly what the paramaters to some function is while I'm typing it into my program.

'Natural' Keyboards

[IceFreak2000]

I recently started suffering from severe pain in my left hand, below the thumb, whenever I used my keyboard, and to a lesser extent in my right (mousing) hand as well.

I convinced my boss to buy me two MS Multimedia Natural Keyboards (one for work, and one for home where I also work two days a week).

After about a week of getting used to the split keyboard, and the annoying positioning of the Insert key, my typing speed is back to what it used to be on 'normal' keyboards, but more importantly the pain has completely disappeared.

I know the parent post was about the iGesture, but from what I'm lead to believe it's keyboards and posture that do the most damage.

You have two hands: use them.

[jotaeleemeese]

After many years in the IT industry as an SA I began to have pain in my right hand.

I immediatly took some actions (new keyboard, comfortable mouse pads, etc).

Something else I did was to change the mouse to my left hand and declare it in my work machines as a left handed one.

At home I bought the most comfortable input device I could find (I settled for a Waccom pen tablet using the pen 99 per cent of the time) and carried on using it with the right hand.

All those changes eliminated the pain, I have been working like that for 2 years.

The workload in your hands is heavy, help them by distributing the work as much as poosible between both of them and ensuring that your hand does a little in a repetitive manner as possible (next year I may switch hands, devices or both to ensure the new changes don't become a new source of stress).

Re:You have two hands: use them.

[bluGill]

Why did you declaird your mouse left handed to the computer? All it does is reverse the positions of the buttons, which sounds like a good idea, but having used my mouse with both hands, reveresed and not, I find that I prefer it when my mouse isn't reveresed.

Mind you there exists such a thing as a left handed mouse, designed to fit in the left hand, which if you can find, sounds like a good idea. I however have never found one. I know they make it, but most places don't sell it (and those that do are questionable as to if I trust them with my money...)

The review is absolutly positive!

[Maresi]

I dont know how Eneff comes to his conclusion, but here is what meettehgeeks says about this item: "10 out of 10:Its the Muttz Nutz ! "

Everyone who is not able to use the former link: http://www.meetthegeeks.org/ourreview/fingerworksi gesture/index.htm

so long

nd

Ganglions are caused by inner conflict.

[Futurepower(R)]

"The cause of ganglions is not always clear."

Ganglions are caused by inner conflict. There is no direct connection with computer use.

I had the same thing

[g(zerofunk.org)]

Speaking from experience of having those damn things I suggest that you get to a doc's office asap and have them removed before they get worse. I waited over two years to have it removed and im left with a nasty scar on the upside of my wrist and about 30-50% weight abality in my right wrist. The worst thing about it is that the scar tissue is so bad that the bump from that is bigger then the lump that I had from the Cysts.
g

Re:I had the same thing

[Atrapose]

I don't know what butcher you had cut on you, but my 5 y.o. daughter had one removed on her wrist about 4 months ago, and the scar is so small that it's hard to tell which wrist had the thing on it. The Dr. made a horizontal cut that went along the grain of the skin (yes, skin has grain) so as she grows, the scar won't elongate or continue to keloid. We had tried several other treatments before (draining, constant pressure, etc) but it always came back in a week or two. Surgury worked, and if a Dr. can remove something from a wrist no bigger than my three fingers, then you can find one that will remove it from your hands w/o damage.

"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" -- Asimov

Re:I had the same thing

[g(zerofunk.org)]

As I said I waited 2 years past the time that I should have had it taken out. Before I had it removed it was to the point that I could do nothing with my right hand do to this in/on my wrist; I mean nothing (Being right handed and lonely didnt help. heh) That is why I am in the condition that I am now. The scar isnt horrible but its there, they had to widen the cut due to the size of the cyst they removed.
As I failed to mention in my first post I have it once again growing back, but at a much slower rate, which means in about 5-9 years I will be due to have it removed again.
g

Re:I had the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

The worst thing about it is that the scar tissue is so bad that the bump from that is bigger then the lump that I had from the Cysts.
So basically you are saying don't get them removed unless you want even larger lumps on your hands.

Deja vu

[pjcreath]

These keyboards have been discussed on /. before, but thankfully more than 24 hours ago. Check out the prior articles on FingerWorks keyboards for a lot more information.

The review I wrote is here. As a further update to their helpfulness, my keyboard died for no apparent reason, and they're fixing it for free (a long time after I bought it).

Maybe not but they can be irritated...

[JZ_o8]

While it may be true that there is no direct connection, the ganglion in my wrist is often inflamed and sore after periods of lengthly computer use. It may not be the cause but it does directly effect them.

Wacom Tablet

[JZ_o8]

I'm a graphic designer and I have used pen-based graphics tablets for several years....(I used my first one in Windows 3.11).

After some period of adjustment, many people will use a graphics tablet as a complete mouse replacement....the only time I use a mouse is for FPS games. However, for most other games (and applications for that matter) it is better than a mouse. I feel I can move through the environment with less effort and more precision.

And repetitive stress is lessened. Much of the stress of using a mouse is in the way you rest. Most people assume a resting position when using a mouse that holds their first finger arched over the left-button awaiting the next click. However with a pen-based input, you can rest on the heel of your hand much like when writing.

Give it a try. The models from Wacom are the industry standard.

...and use them differently

[rselph]

Switching from hand to hand is good. So is switching from one kind of input device to another.

On my main workstation, I have a traditional optical scroll-mouse, a trackball, and an iGesture from FingerWorks. None of these is stress-free, but they all stress my hands differently.

When I'm getting pain using one, I switch to another for a while. Variety is the spice of health. Er... Something like that.

BTW, the iGesture works great. I use it as a track-pad that has right-click. It can do more than that, but I haven't really bothered to memorize the other gestures.

To avoid knowledge of inner conflict...

[Futurepower(R)]

I certainly understand why you say this. However, the symptoms co-exist. One is not the direct cause of the other.

To avoid knowledge of inner conflict, people push themselves to be aware of something else. It is the pushiness that causes the bumps.

Chromose - your answer.

[Glonoinha]

You are pushing too close to the edge. As a sys/admin, you probably haven't taken a real escape from tech in quite a few years. Your body is fighting back, hurting, letting you know that it has hit some limitations and is being prematurely worn down - and you ignore these telling signs.

Back off.

There isn't a lot of gray area on this one Chromose - and all you other hackers that are looking for relief from your wrist / arm / upper shoulder / hand pain. The proper response to pain and damage in your money making body parts is not to slightly adjust the way you work to minimize the pain - it is to back off.

I suggest you find a place with no tech - no computers, ATMs, keyboards, pagers, even no push button phones. No televisions, VCRs ... nothing with a button. It can be a cabin in the woods, or a beach house, or even a second or third world country - personally I like to go to Moscow, CCCP as the relative strength of the dollar makes my money go further and it is very, very beautiful (does require that I have a translator accompany me, find a friend in advance.) Go there for a month (no less than 4 weeks, more is better) to decompress your body, your mind, and your soul. You will come back a new person, literally. Your eating habits will have changed (hopefully for the better), your outlook on life will be calmer and better, and your body won't hurt anymore.

I suggest someplace where you don't even speak the language, but this requires that you have a friend there that can interpret for you when necessary - but it lets your mind calm down and renew while your body is doing the same. Bring comfortable durable clothes and very comfy shoes. Get out - fresh air, food, and sunlight are good for you and being away from the things that caused your RSI in the first place will give your body a chance to heal.

I have done it, and trust me it works way better than any tech solution. See the problem with using different RSI inducing toys to alleviate the pain caused by your current RSI inducing toys? Bingo.

Re:Chromose - your answer.

[Anonymous Coward]

I want your job.

Re:Chromose - your answer.

[rodolfo.borges]

I suggest you find a place with no tech - no computers, ATMs, keyboards, pagers, even no push button phones. No televisions, VCRs ... nothing with a button.

How funny.. I'm suffering from pain in the (right) wirst from some months now. On the new-year's holyday I went camping for an entire week in a place with no eletricity at all. I though my pain would relief, but it got worst than ever!

iGesture Pad

[Anonymous Coward]

Just got mine today. So far, it has lived up to the sparse reviews that exist. It is easy to use, as I have gotten the hang of the basic gestures inside of 10 minutes...I'll post a better review in a week or so when I have had a chance to really get used to the newness of the gesture sets...

Touchpad pain

[twocoasttb]

I don't understand exactly why, but after a month of using laptop touchpads, I experienced long-lasting (and intense) pain in my right index finger, the only finger I used for mouse navigation. Cleared up a couple of weeks after I stopped. I used to get considerable wrist pain which I believe originated from keyboards with reduced tactile feedback. That's all cleared up since switching to one of those old IBM (clackity-clack) keyboards. Pain has subsided considerably; I'm sure not typing any less. The iGuesturePad sounds pretty cool, but I'd be pretty skeptical about claims that it reduces RSI.

RSI from Affepr�gel

[Glonoinha]

A week out where there is no electricity and when you came back your right wrist was still bothering you as bad as ever. Methinks the keyboard and mouse might not be the problem - how do I put this lightly ...

Well when you translate Affeprügel it comes back ape flogging, but that was a close to monkey spanking as I could get.

To list some...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ie = House
Oshie = Teaching
Chie = Wisdom / Wit [Or can be a name]
Haien = Pneumonia
Saien = (Home) Garden
Taieki = Body fluid

Ieru = Heal
Kieru = Disappear
Hieru = Cool down
Mieru = Visible

(Many -ieru form with verbs)

NieA_7 = ...okay, I guess this does not qualify :-)

And as other has pointed, so very large number of people's and places' names contain it, too. It's not THAT rare as you claim to be... It may be better to say that it's not that common for it to exist in one syllable of a noun... It often occurs as result of a i-ending kanji with e-beginning kanji.

Of course, the word "Kieretsu" is non existent :-P

Maybe if you were a better programmer...

[Anonymous Coward]

...you wouldn't have to type as much.

Focus Follows... Thought!

[Jaeger]

Sometimes I forget which of my plethora of xterms currently has focus and start typing in the wrong one. Focus follows mouse is nice (especially if it serves to endlessly confuse those who borrow my console), but sometimes I wonder if there is a better way. Focus follows eyes sounds like a good idea until I remember that sometimes I'm looking at a different window. So I have a brilliant new idea: Focus Follows Thought! My window manager will read my mind to decide which window to focus. Now, if only I can keep it from pulling up porn during the middle of the day...

Re:Focus Follows... Thought!

[bluGill]

I agree. In fact I wanted to say that, but I have yet to here of any thought reading thechnology that holds any promiss of working. Brain Waves sound good in science fiction, but in practice they appear hard to control consistently. (I have not tried them though, so I'm not sure)

Let me know when I can install a thought sensor on my computer, I'm interested. I won't install it though until I'm sure if won't transmit my thoughts to others.