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Safari Beta Leaked, With Tabs
ollie_ob writes "Seems a bit too good to be true: Apple listening to its community and implementing the features most requested? Apparently a build (v62) of Safari has been leaked into the wild, and has tabs -- though not fully implemented yet -- and primitive support for autocomplete in forms. The Think Secret rumor site has the scoop." It is not merely a rumor, I've confirmed it. It works nicely, too, in a brief test. Then I, uh, deleted the copy I looked at.
Tabs ho!
.62) and choose "Tabbed Browsing" in the debug menu.
;)
You need to activate the debug menu. While Safari is not running, write this in the terminal:
defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1
Start Safari (Beta
Command-T will open a new tab as will right clicking on a link and choose "Open link in new tab". Command-W will close the tab you are currently using. Command-shift-right/leftarrow wil choose the prev/next tab.
One thing though, tabs slows down the gui, not page-load-time, but it takes longer to switch between tabs than to switch between windows. Also, if you have, say, 5 tabs in one window and are looking at the last (the one most to the right) command-shift-rightarrow will not cycle you back to the first tab. Another thing is that Safari sometimes closes the whole window instead of just the tab when you press command-W.
Ive got only small complaints, Im very impressed they got it working so well already. Cant wait for the final.
Tabbing is a nice feature, but Ive kinda got used to not using tabs after shifting to Safari. well, Ive just got to get used to tabbing again
So, Galeon, Konqueror, Mozilla, Netscape, Opera, Safari, (...!) all have tabbed browsing?
Who's missing? oh! sorry, I remember, they don't care about usability anymore, they have 95% of the market.
"People don't use tabs, look, mommy, 95% of people live without."
Innovation: don't ever use bright ideas from others.
Apple has been doing alot of listening lately. The Apple menu was replaced in 10.0 (it was an ornament in the Public Beta), spring loaded folders reappeared in Jaguar to much fanfare. They even listened on the unix side... bash replaced zsh as the default "bourne" shell around the jaguar release (possibly a bit sooner I use ksh and didnt pay that close attention). Now if they would only listen release the "G5"... In whatever form it takes.
On my Mac I opened Chimera and filled up the window with as many tabs as it would allow (16 in a single window). All windows displayed the Slashdot mainpage. My Slashdot prefs are set to show all stories from all sections.
I checked the system usage in the Process Viewer app:
I then closed all the windows and did the same thing, this time opening 16 SEPARATE windows. Again with Slashdot's mainpage loaded in each.
Process Viewer showed:
So, according to this unscientific off-the-cuff test, you cut your RAM requirements in half by using tabs. YMMV.
I noticed this the other day when I opened over 50 different images in different windows. My Mac almost ground to a halt. I then opened the same images in tabs (in only a few windows
So, to all those who think tabbed browsing is purely a matter of personal preference, I suggest that there is at least a reasonable performance based argument for it.
The wide success of "Tabbed browsing", heralded in by Opera seems to indicate Microsoft was wrong to call MDI "depricated" and attempt to force users to a "document centric" rather than "application centric" view of the computer.
Microsoft's implementation of MDI could easily be called confusing, with multiple sets of window control decorations so close together, however, I don't think that points as much to a fatal flaw in the idea of MDI, as it does to a flawed implementation. MDI has real life analogies too.
Imagine your computer is a large shop, each application is a machine that does a certain function. It is perfectly natural to think in terms of "I need to lathe this piece of metal, so I'll to take it to the lathe. I can set other pieces I am going to lathe on the lathe table."
Document centric is like, "OK I have metal, I need to run it through the lathe, so I will feed it into this huge machine that will try to guess what I want to do with it, and hopefully it will wind up on the lathe." It's very unnatural.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
...can the new Safari beta be able to bookmark a set of tabs all at once? Chimera/Navigator does this, so that in the morning I can load about ten top news pages (including slashdot of course) all at once which saves a LOT of time. I'll be sticking with Chimera until Safari gets multi-tab-bookmarks.
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
agree...not agree...what do I care...this is /. - not some cubscout meeting with rules. The day this place starts making sense is the day I move on.
./ debate manuals...joke.
You'd have more luck gettin popular agreement here by stapling your opinion to your ass.
Funny thing about my opinion...I never care whether anyone takes it or not. But when the back-chatter comes around as others talking out their little brown holes, it's kind of fun to be able to see them squirm.
Or was i absent the day they handed out
Ok, as for proof...NDAs tend to get in the way, you know? Makes being able to read between the lines more than just a dating skill.
1. Quit Safari.
2. Open a terminal and type:
defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1
3. Relaunch Safari.
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
I'm reminded of when some ZDNet columnist wrote a column on OS X DR3 based on Apple's press releases. He got an avalanche of emails saying, "Are you an IDIOT? Have you even SEEN DR3?" which, of course, he hadn't, being that it was a developer-only release. DR3 was warezed so widely, though, that just about every Rhapsody-starved Mac user was running it (myself included).
I guess I'd better reinstall Hotline and start clicking porn banners to get a nick/pass...
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I hope that Apple is bright enough to have an option that forces all "open in new window" javascripts to "open in new tab." This is possible in Mozilla and Phoenix (but not Chimera), but requires a plug-in installation.
I've seen many new users of tabbed browsing become baffled by new windows popping up all over the place. If tabbed browsing is to be integrated, it needs to be done right. This seems like the sort of humane interface element that Apple used to have a real knack for, but since OS X you never can quite be sure.
// I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans.
Actually, it _might_ be worth it for Apple to port the apps over and sell them (maybe $99 for all but iDVD, $149 for all)
Probably could generate a good revenue stream, get PC users "used" to Apple's interface, making them more apt to switch (plus, the fact the iLife apps are "free" with new Macs, and, except iDVD, free to existing Mac users doesn't hurt either).
- Tony
Now why would Microsoft port IE to Mac? What's next, you're going to ask them to port Office, and, uh, uh, wait... damn.
It's hard being a mindless Apple zealot with Apple changing their minds so much. Our job as zealots is to screamingly defend whatever Apple does without thinking or considering what's best for the user or common sense. We defend Apple Corporation's interests over the users' desires at all costs. Our job is to claim tabs suck when they don't have tabs, the G4 1Ghz is as fast as the Pentium4 3.0Ghz, RISC is better than CISC, slower memory and busspeed is a GOOD thing, proprietary software is freer than open source, Safari Beta is more stable than established and mature browsers, paying for .Mac is a privilege, Steve didn't lie when he said "Free Forever .Mac", using the DMCA is justified when Apple does it but not anyone else, etc etc.
Originally, all us zealots had to violently attack everyone who said tabs were a good idea, saying they were crude and unintuitive. Now, we have to do a complete reversal and furiously attack anyone who is against tabs. It just never ends.
The life of a spin doctor is a tough one, but immensely satisfying.
Now let me just put you back in a tabbed window here in v62 of Safari.
The comment was in case Apple should care that he was using the leaked beta, which they don't. Well, not much anyways. The "uh" was to hint at that he wasn't really telling the truth.
"I tend to think of OS X as Linux with QA and Taste", James Gosling, creator of Java
Well, because making absolute statements can be very harmful or just wrong. Like saying
Microsoft has done nothing good... or..
Bush will go to war... or..
This company will go bankrupt.
Do you have some fore-knowledge? Also by making absolute statements, you weaken your argument. Or can we now say,
All mp3 users are pirates...
All pregnant teens were irresponsible...
All linux users are zealots...
All geeks are fat and ugly with no social skills
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Now that Safari will presumably be getting tabs, the next feature that's needed is Keychain integration similar to that in Chimera. In fact, Keychain integration was #1 on my list (just ahead of tabs at #2) of new features I'd really like to see in Safari. Yeah, I know the Keychain will work for login dialogs and web sites that have been written to support it, but what makes Chimera really nice is that it'll use the Keychain for sites that don't explicitly support it.
Care to back up your claims with a few facts/numbers instead of pulling things out of your back?
Here are some numbers from my machine (768MB RAM/128MB VRAM):
New Safari opened: ~9MB.
Slashdot loaded: ~13MB.
New window opened: ~16MB.
Apple page opened: ~18MB.
New window opened: ~21MB.
So what do we see? A new window takes up around 3MB. Is this "uneconomical", like you say? No, I rarely have more than 4-5 windows open so this is merely a drop in the water. Memory is cheap these days you know...
-- The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.
In Mozilla browsers, when a link is defined like [a href="blah" target="_new" ], clicking on this link opens the new page in a new window.
When a user is using tabbed browsing, they are aggregating all of their windows into a single window. Clicking on "_new" links in tabbed browsing mode should open documents into new tabs, not new windows.*
"Right-clicking" and selecting "open in a new tab" is not an acceptable solution because it is unintuitive, not all users even have right-buttons (don't tell me to explain keyboard shortcuts to my grandma), and if a user in unsure of which links open into new windows and which ones are normal links, they need to adjust to a habit of right-click/open-new-tabbing EVERY link they encounter. I think you can agree that's pretty absurd behavior.
*an exception might be made for links that trigger new windows with specified sizes (like those small comments windows many blogs use)
// I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans.
Get your Safari Beta (with tabs!) HERE:
2 .d mg
http://www.domestikalien.com/imagenes/safari_v6
Wow. Apple listens. Day 1 I sent a bug report to them for their own website. I could see tabs on the site, but not in my browser?
.Mac connected systems. One bookmark file. Always managed. Always the same.
I wonder if they'll do one of my other requests. Sync'ing the bookmarks across
Well the site is hosed, but while we're on the subject, is there any better solution than tabs?
.. pages you want to jump to in the future, rather than the past.
.. again, tabbed windows are sites you want to add to the list, so you can visit them in the future.
When you think about tabs, the history list, SnapBack, and bookmarks, you can see they are all a bit similar. They all take you to different pages. Tabs are treated specially. Maybe they shouldn't be?
Different ways to think about tabs:
* Per-window, per-session Bookmarks that retain form entries and other state.
* "SnapForward"
* nonlinear per-window history list
I guess what I'm saying is, I wish Apple or someone would think about the "essence" of tabbed browsing, and come up with something *better*.
And the "tabbed browsing is MDI is evil" folks might even like it. Hint: think about each browser window representing a *browsing session* rather than a *web page*, and it will go down easier. (As if web browsers are poster children for GUI design in the first place).
Maybe Apple thought about it, and decided that tabs were best because they were familiar to people. But that's not Apple's style.
Now I'm not complaining about Safari specifically, in fact when the official Safari with tabs comes out, I will have little reason to use any other web browser, but I can't help thinking the tabbed browsing interface can be made even better.
Umm... no. They wrote a Windows interface for the iPod because a) it is a relatively simple, specialized file manager and b) it sold iPods. Apple is a hardware company. The iLife apps exist as a bonus to Mac users, an incentive to upgrade or switch to new Macs. It costs money and time to port software, and you know that iPhoto and iMovie are heavily invested in Cocoa, Quartz and other Mac-exclusive properties. Porting even just iPhoto would involve porting all the exporting/publishing options, plus support hundreds of camera/hardware combinations. They do not have the software engineers to do any of these ports, which would in the end on deter people from buying Macs since the price difference with PC's is much more than the $100 or even $150 you suggest.
Given the overall progress on the iApps, not to mention Safari and OS X in general, I personally think they are managing their development projects pretty well. They are riding out the recession better than most companies, and the more distinct software solutions they develop will make their products look even better when the recession ending combines with Windows DRM backlash. OK, that last was an unprovoked slam, but it is something to be aware of when looking at the big picture. Apple has said and acted in varying degrees that they want to give customers tools, not restrictions, and I think they just keep subtly positioning themselves to jump when the axe falls.
Of course, that's just my hop^H^H^Hopinion. I could be wrong.
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
I thought it came from Opera first?
This would be something I'd like to see implemented (and many web masters probably would like to see not implemented). The ability to set a timer for a webpage to refresh, on an individual page basis. So on sites that I frequently view, I don't have to refresh constantly, I already know that the page has been reloaded recently. Web admins would probably hate this as it would put additional load on the server as the pages refresh, but I know it would make me happier. :)
or simply /.ed?
Is version 1.0 out? Does it have tabs?
No, and no?
Well, then your hunch hasn't been proven correct yet. There is still time for the release version of Safari to have the tabs functionality removed from it or replaced with something more worthwhile. Features found in betas have been removed for finals before, you know.
mbbac
First, Hyatt is not a UI programmer. He works on WebCore.
I see. He's a low-level guy without any real browser interface experience. Except for that Chimera stint.
He is a very smart guy, but he doesn't know shit about user interfaces.
Lessee, credibility with regard to browser interface design - the guy who started Chimera, or some random AC? Hmmm, thoughie.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Apple has always included the most requested features by users. That is the reason why the Mac OS is so good in the first place, it has what users want in it. If you request any feature in any Apple product enough you do get it.
How you think this is in any ways like Windows is beyond me. Tabs are not in IE, neither on the Mac nor on windows. Tabs are a Mozilla/Opera invention, much better on Mozilla's side. They were improved in practice in Chimera with quick key shortcuts to navigate from tab to tab and Safar has inherited these. Try Command-Shift-Left, Command-Shift-Right, they will cycle right and left through your open tabs.
However, if you prefer a company that doesn't listen to its customers, and would rather do what they want then waht users obviously want, then I don't see how you could like Apple, the company, not its computers.
-"I'm one of those Mac people that will break a bottle on the bar and hold it to your throat for bad-mouthing my system"
wrong
the MacOS was good because it was designed by people who CARED. they cared about efficiency, user feedback and aesthetics. MacOS is such a creaky UI because it's in the business of capturing users from Windows, so it aims to emrace UI conventions that they're familiar with - Apple seems to think that this is the way forward, I think it's a step back.
To paraphrase Akio Morita "why would we ask consumers what to make? They don't know what's possible."
That was classic intercourse!
Actually... You can you your /etc/groups and /etc/passwd files to create users in X. All you have to do is go to /Applications/Utilities/Directory\ Access.app
/etc/fstab, and /etc/hosts not being ignored. Happy UNIXing in Mac OS X.
Then check BSD Configuration Files on.
That is all since lookupd is configured by default like so: Cache FF DNS NI DS
Notice that Flat Files show up before NetInfo.
By turning this on you also get
P.S. This only exists because people like yourself complained during 10.1 and Apple added it for 10.1 so people whenever you feel something is subpar or could be better, http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback/. Let Apple know.
-"I'm one of those Mac people that will break a bottle on the bar and hold it to your throat for bad-mouthing my system"
THe MacOS is still all those things except not some things are different then before. You can't possibly think Apple doesn't care since I personally think that the changes in Mac OS X all make sense.
Efficiency? 10.2 is super optimized, and as to UI efficiency I have seen nothing that would suggest that X is less efficient in this regard. Hell most of the time its faster with things like global window switch keys( Cmd-~ ), and applicatino switching ( Cmd-Tab ), add to that the familiar Mac OS way of doing things.
As to familiarity with windows. Almost all the things you could argue are windowsesque are from NeXT and thier implementation of them predate Window's.
Apple has always thought that the user is more important since they will be using it all the damn time. I don't have a qoute unfortunately.
-"I'm one of those Mac people that will break a bottle on the bar and hold it to your throat for bad-mouthing my system"
9.2.2 is less stable than 9.1 first of all and that is because its only a build to appease the demands of Mac OS X. As to optimization, 9.2.2 is the result of over 10 years of optimization and computers growing magnitudes faster over that time. 10.2 is 2 years worth of optimizations, and the amout of optimizations that have already been made more than surpass those for 9.
/System /Applications /Applications /Users /Library I can't sompare to 9 but it is much better than fropping stuff directly into te sytem folder since all the non essentla and third party stuff sit outside of the folder of stuff your computer needs in order to run.
QuickDraw meets its older and wiser brethren Quartz and Quartz Extreme.
The organization is the same if not better.
System Folder =
Applications Folder =
Apple Extras in
Users =
Yes the
And Copland could not have possibly been great besides OpenDoc which was a nice idea, there is nothing much that it would have bought us since we would still be basically using 9. And if you think Apple has trouble starting from a base like NeXTStep 4.4 what if they did try fro mscratch I think there would be a lot more bitching all around. I just don't think Apple could afford that misstep.
-"I'm one of those Mac people that will break a bottle on the bar and hold it to your throat for bad-mouthing my system"
remember to allow us to bookmark tab-groups.
Tabbed bookmarks are live-and-die for me.
PLEASE remember to allow us to bookmark groups of tabs!
I'm writing on Safari now, but if I wanted to get serious work done I would have to open Chimera (where all my bookmarks are, almost all of them tab-groups).
Thanks a million for listening to us!
I thought it intensely odd that Apple made the browser mode the default, rather than either the NeXTStep "Columns" view or a spacial mode. The former would have been alright by those who can't have more than one window open without flipping out (which, for some reason, includes a lot of my technically inclined collegues), the latter would have made the experience familiar to existing Mac users, and both would have ensured users had a file management system that reflected and made intuitive the underlying file structure.
Oh well.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Uh, what the fuck? Internet Explorer doesn't have tabs. Tabs are as tied to Windows as it's tied to Linux or MacOS.
The day my web browser knows what page I want to go to in the future is the day I quit web browsing.
I know, I know, it's a pyrrhic victory at best, since my web browser will know what day that will be before I do.
Tabs are off by default, but can be enabled in the Debug menu. Once enabled, cmd-T makes a new tab, as does cmd-clicking on a link. I'm a big fan of chimera's cmd-[ and cmd-] for moving between tabs; mozilla's lack of support for those shortcuts has always bugged me. Safari v62 doesn't use those keys, but it does let you move between tabs with cmd-left or cmd-right (arrow keys). Yay safari! I wonder when we'll see the real release of this beta...
__
Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what mnemonic means, you've got a problem. - Larry Wall
Have a looksie.
Faster than a mouse, you can switch pages, and without the clutter of tabs.
Upside down tabs... hmm...
BATS??