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Bad Behavior on the 'Net - Who Pays the Bandwidth Bill?

rakolam asks: "I am involved with network management in the hosting department of a fairly large ISP. Constantly we have customers who dispute inbound bandwidth spikes and demand service credits on their burstable connections. Events such as the Slammer Virus literally have everyone knocking on their salesperson's door at the end of the billing cycle. My position is that the internet is a public space, and by placing themselves in that space, one has to realize the consequences (and the implications of burstable billing). I'd like Slashdot's perspective on this. Should ISP's ultimately eat the costs of malicious behavior? Is the customer ultimately responsible for the bandwidth they've generated, regardless if it's desired or not? Is this a new frontier for insurance companies?"

55 of 595 comments (clear)

  1. analogous to water/electric company IMHO by rdewald · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What happens to you if someone runs an extension cord from your house or if you spring an unknown water leak? You get a huge bill and you fix the problem. How is this different?

    --
    The best way to do is to be.
    1. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by prator · · Score: 4, Funny

      Not a very good analogy. More like you have an electrical socket outside your house, and you have a sign that says, "Use me". Then you get upset when the circus comes to town and powers everything off your socket.

      -prator

    2. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by captain_craptacular · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bad Analogy. The poster says customers dispute INCOMING bandwidth spikes. So the analogy would be more along the lines of someone sending a huge power surge through your lines un-announced and un-requested, then the power company attempting to charge you for it.

      I lean towards the consumer not having to pay, considering they didn't request the traffic and are therefore not resonsible for it.

      --
      They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security
    3. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by Fishstick · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yep, I was thinking along the same lines. It's like having a drinking fountain outside your house for public use - you are expecting amybe 10-20 gallons monthly as people stop by and have a quick sip. Then, you get all pissed when your water bill comes and 5,000 gallons show up when the circus comes to town and all the clowns have used your water fountain to fill all their water baloons. :-)

      Do you then go ask for a credit from the utility because of the excessive/unexpected use?

      --

      There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
      Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

    4. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by jgerman · · Score: 5, Interesting
      No but what I do expect is to be able to set a turn off point for my site when bandwidth goes too high. Here's a for instance. I wasnted to put up a smallish site at WazooWeb (yes I actually clicked on a /. banner) for 6.95 a month it didn't seem like a bad deal, and 10GB of bandwidth seems more than enough. But what if I get /.'ed, or something equally remote happens that blows me over the limit. I want a way to say, once I'm at my limit shut me down for the month, unless I explicitly come in and say go ahead... I'll take the extra charges. It's not like I even want it on be default, I'm perfectly ok with setting the threshold myself.


      Of course my small scale situation may not translate to a large business account.

      --
      I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
    5. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by luzrek · · Score: 4, Insightful
      build in clauses that say the end-user is required to notify the ISP of problematic access within a certain timeframe

      This would be like dealing with stolen credit cards. When a credit card is stolen the owner gets 24 hours to report it and is only liable for $50. If they wait up to 72 hours, they are only liable for $500. I'm not sure what happens after that. This system protects both the credit card company and the credit card user by insuring prompt reporting of stolen credit cards and fraudulent activity (and can hopefully catch the crook). This system has worked fairly well.

      The implications for ISPs and their customers for a similar system would be pretty interesting. The customers who actively monitor their network traffic and help to head off problems would be rewarded by being less liable for damage, while ISPs would be free to give the full bill to those who ignore their bandwidth usage. This system should lead to lower costs for the better customers and discurage neglegance possibly leading to better service for all.

      --

      Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.

    6. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by jazman_777 · · Score: 4, Funny
      Then you get upset when the circus comes to town and powers everything off your socket.

      Holy cow, that circus next door, it's not free?!

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    7. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by gmack · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are several Apache mods that will either limit total useage or shut off files on the end of large spikes.

      The original question though is what should the ISP have done. IMO they should have firewalled access to the affected ports and then split the cost.

    8. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by DanEsparza · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I completely disagree. Bandwidth is analagous to people using roads (network connections). If roads are heavily used, they must be maintained, or they fall into disrepair. If network connections are heavily used, ISP's need capital to get bigger (or more) connections so that certain service levels can be maintained.

      We don't live in an (entirely) communist world. We don't get to pass out resources indiscriminately. We have a fixed amount of resources, and as with any case of supply and demand, the person holding the supply can (and should) charge for using the resource. In the case of network bandwidth, the resource is not obvious, but it is still tangible: It is network equipment and opportunity costs.

    9. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by vano2001 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is mod_throttle for Apache which can be set up along with some scripting to activate/deactivate a virtual host. I have done this myself for a webhosting company. The problem is that the web hosting companies decide it is better not to have this option and force clients to charge the extra bandwidth. It is a business policy and not a technical impediment.

    10. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by rodney+dill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Pick your analogy.

      You can also use the analogy of junk faxes. Your machine is set up and the number is available for anyone to call, but people can be prohibited from using your resources by sending you junk faxes.

      Though with out specific laws it probably comes down to contract and at that point it is probably buyer beware, whether you agree with it or not.

      --

      Use your head, can't you, use your head,
      You're on earth, there's no cure for that
      - S. Beckett
    11. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by Fishstick · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >my small scale situation may not translate to a large business account.

      Exacly. Not even a large account. If you shut me off for the rest of the month, I've got a problem. I need to have my site accessible. I just want to pick and choose which access (legitimate) I want to pay for. ;-)

      Someone else said the ISP should firewall off the "bad" traffic. Does the ISP then complain to its upstream provider about that bandwidth? Someone has to either pass on the cost of that bandwidth or eat it.

      Where do you draw the line? You could argue that your ISP has no business charging you for inbound UDP packets to SQL server port (1443 was it?) since you expect to only provide http on port 80. Next month there is another virus/worm that causes another spike, but this time by flooding the net with bogus TCP traffic on port 80. Now do you try to get your ISP to take that off your bill because it was from a virus/worm?

      --

      There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
      Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

    12. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by -Surak- · · Score: 4, Informative

      Presumably this refers to hosted server connections, rather than a simple virtual web server account. For this sort of connection, I would want a true Internet connection, instead of some firewalled lan port. I would be very upset if the ISP did ANY filtering on my connection without my specific request or knowledge. It's none of the ISP's business what I do with my end of the network cable (aside from spam policies) - they don't need to know if I'm running a web server, SQL server, or some custom game server that happens to use UDP/1443.

      Most colo providers I'm familiar with bill on 95th percentile bandwidth, which means that they drop the top 5% of samples (typically 5-minute average) and bill you for the bandwidth of the highest remaining sample. This means that you can absorb short-term heavy bandwidth spikes without being charged, up to about a day and a half worth of time per month.

      In any case, the ISP should have no way of knowing WHAT traffic creates the bandwidth spike, unless I specifically request that they monitor my port. Of course, smart ISPs will exploit these incidents by offering firewalling services as a value-add, even if it's just stateless filtering at the router, as a way for customers to "insure against unexpected traffic spikes from virus/worm activity".

      Of course, if I was paying for virtual web service, rather than a server colo and bandwidth fee, I should not be charged for non-web traffic, and I doubt any ISP would have the balls to do so.

    13. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by dhogaza · · Score: 4, Informative

      The City of Portland Water Bureau will forgive excess water bills due to undetected leaks or the like if you show that you've fixed the problem. Often leaks aren't detectable and a large water bill is the first clue the homeowner sees (western Oregon is very wet, water water everywhere)

    14. Re:analogous to water/electric company IMHO by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Firewalling doesn't solve the problem. By the time the packet reaches the ISP's customer, it's already been counted. Whether the customer replies to the request or denies it with negative feedback, or just ignores it - doesn't matter - it's already been passed through the ISP on the way to reach the customer, so they've already counted it.

      If you hold the customer responsible, then people angry with that person can just drive up that person's cost by choosing to flood him.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

  2. Charge on sent traffic. by FirstManOnMoon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Every ISP should base charges only on how much traffic you send. That would give people a real incentive to keep their systems patched and secured. You wouldn't have to pay a ridiculous amount if you're on the receiving end of a DOS. You would have to pay if your systems get hacked or catch a worm though.

    Alas, unless every ISP participated, this model wouldn't work well.

  3. Users just won't pay by drfuchs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If someone steals my credit card number, the credit card company won't even charge me the $50 that they have the legal right to. I doubt that ISPs will be able to fare any better.

    1. Re:Users just won't pay by Gaijin42 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Thats because they pass that cost on to the vendor, for not validating enough information about who the purchaser was.

      The CC company doesn't eat that. The vendor does for accepting the stolen card

  4. The customer always pays by chrisseaton · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You could let them think that you were "eating the cost", but everyone ones it would simply be passed to the customers in the end.

    1. Re:The customer always pays by timeOday · · Score: 3, Insightful
      This argument is overused. If it were true, companies wouldn't balk at paying for things, which they invariably do.

      But it's not true. If McDonalds loses $80 in a lawsuit to somebody burned with hot coffee, they *can't* just raise their prices to recoup; their prices were already set to maximize profit before. So what gives? Profit. McDonald's shareholders lose, not the public at large.

  5. Simple policy by cybermace5 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Keep up to date on current worms and other bandwidth threats. Notify your customers about these threats, and provide information on how to eliminate or reduce the impact.

    Any massive bandwidth they log after that, is their responsibility. You notified them, and they did not listen.

    After a few incidents like that, they will start to listen to your warning messages.

    --
    ...
    1. Re:Simple policy by Croaker · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Err... the problem is customers are billed by the ISP for incoming bandwidth. How is a customer supposed to stop incoming packets from some pinhead's server that got itself infected with some virus? Is the ISP allowing them to setup a firewall outside the ISP to block this stuff? If not, then saying 'hey, there are some nasty viruses going around' is pretty much beside the point. There's nothing the customer can do to block those incoming packets before they are charged for them by the ISP.

      This is a thorny issue. The real answer is that the twit whose server got owned and is spewing garbage out on the net should be responsible for paying. But enforcing that is going to be a problem.

    2. Re:Simple policy by sweetooth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Protecting yourself from an attack, such as code red, doesn't mean it doesn't still eat bandwidth. It's the same with anything. I noticed today that my mail server was a little slugish. I sshd into it checked the logs and saw the same bastard attempting to send spam to the server and tons of rbl lookups were taking place. So I added the various ip's to the firewalls blacklist. So now the mail isn't processed, but whatever program they are using doesn't even bother to check to see if the mail is being accepted, it just keeps spamming. So, I'm still having a fairly large percentage of my bandwidth being eaten because of a very inconsiderate individual. Stopping code red was the same. At one point I was logging thousands of attempts every day. They were not successful, but they still ate the bandwidth.

      I don't know what the solution to the problem is exactly. As it stands now I pay for any bandwidth used regardless of how or why it was used. It would be much better if those charges could be passed along to the person responsible for abusing your bandwidth, but how that could be enforced is beyond me.

      One thing I have to note here is that the person posing the question is talking about INBOUND spikes not outbound. So your points are even less relevant.

    3. Re: Simple policy by penguinboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not likely to be an acceptable solution when the computer in question is a server than your business depends on to make money. Not everyone one the net is a home user who can take a few hours' break at whim.

    4. Re:Simple policy by ADRA · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Here is a 'simple' policy as an ISP.

      If you are hosting business internet lines give the customers 2 options.

      1. Wide open internet. Nothing is filtered on the ISP end, as it stands today, and the customer is 100% liable for ANY traffic circulating between the internet and the customer, solicited or not.

      2. Abuse Managed Internet. Charge a fee to the customer per month, which get the customer:
      - Any abuse, aka DOS attempts removed from the monthly bandwidth
      - The ISP will filter abuse attempts before they occur, so if there is a code red floating around, allow a transparent proxy / firewall throw the packets away before it causes your customers harm.
      The trade off for the customer is more assured price, and quality of service for the price of flexability and a nominal charge.

      --
      Bye!
  6. It's not the ISPs responsibility by Mustang+Matt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It sucks for them, but it's their server on the net and their responsibility to pay for the bandwidth used.

    --
    The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
  7. It's in the contract by eagle486 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The customer pays what is in his contract. Make the language very explicit. There is no reason the ISP should eat it.

  8. In other words by djKing · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Should /. pay the bill for the /. effect?

    -Peace

    --
    Free as in "the Truth shall set you..."
    1. Re:In other words by unicron · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've always wondered about that. If you had your business on the net, and /. linked to it, causing it to go down, would /. be liabel? Assume the following before replying:

      */. did NOT warn the page
      *The page in question NEVER receives the amount of traffic necessary to bring it down.
      *Let's assume it happened on a Saturday, when they had minimal support
      *The company can PROVE they lost revenue. /. can't really play dumb, they HAVE TO know the /. effect is going to be too much for a page. It can almost be called a DoS attack at this point.

      --
      Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
  9. contract... by perlchild · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Considering the variety of bandwidth providers, acceptable terms of service(TOS) and all that, eventually, it will become a matter of taste, preference and terms that can be agreed with. How many subscribers want traffic shaping, inbound or outbound on their interface? Wouldn't customers PAY for making sure that the only traffic spikes they can get are mail or http related? I'm sure a lot of my hosting clients would love a system where they pay for the bandwidth they use, but that limits are in place to make sure excessive bandwidth usage is actually the usage they pay for.

    Since DiffServ and other standards based solutions are ready to be implemented, perhaps you should consider talking to your most whiney clients about it?

    Yes I know it doesn't apply to all clients, and not every provider has the extra router/switch cpu power to implement them on all links...

    But wouldn't such a solution be a good way to keep the more demanding clients(increasing the value they get: bandwidth for the right traffic) and decreasing the tax hackers and Distributed DOS and misconfigured systems make them pay (for undesirable traffic). Maybe you should suggest this as a customer retention measure, for those clients where it makes business sense.

  10. To eat or not to eat by binaryDigit · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, on the one hand you have the credit card company model. They eat unauthorized charges all the time, and generally it is a good thing. Phone companies and other utilities do a similar thing, if you can prove the fraud, then they generally cut you some slack (though they might make you work for it). I think that this is a workable "consumer" friendly model. I think that generally, if one had a choice between two isp's and one said we're gonna charge you no matter what, and the other said that we won't charge you for malicous use, assuming you can prove it, then I think that the choice would be obvious (price comparos not withstanding of course).

  11. Balanced response. by gehrehmee · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Give them a complete or partial rebate, the first time, and have a set of "How can I protect myself?" documentation ready for the user. Email it to them, mail it to them, fax it to them, whatever it takes to get them to read it.

    Inform them that if they ignore those suggestions, and future problems end up costing them money, then they'll have to foot the bill.

    This way, the customer walks away happy and informed, and if they're really willing to be a good net citizen, they won't come back crying.

    If they're not willing to do what's required of them, they'll get stuck paying for it.

    --
    "You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help" -- Calvin
  12. OT: What makes up bandwidth costs? by Platinum+Dragon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've always wondered where the cost for bandwidth comes from. I've assumed it is related to equipment and line maintenance, costs for professionals to maintain the equipment and expand the networks, and new equipment and housing.

    Can someone give me an idea of where the price for bandwidth ultimately comes from?

    --

    Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
  13. Monitoring and Opting Out by pbryan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My previous employer was unfortunate enough to be attacked by a series of distributed ICMP ping flood attacks. Our bill jumped from under $1K per month (Canadian) to over $10K in less than a day.

    We adjusted our monitoring process to detect these spikes early and contact our ISP to deny traffic from the offending subnets. Luckily, our ISP was willing to do this, even though they still incurred traffic from inbound packets. Luckily, these attacks originated from a few subnets that could be isolated.

    As a further kludge, we eventually disabled ICMP altogether on our routers, and lived without ping and traceroute.

    Having a host on the net is a risky proposition. You pay for inbound and outbound traffic, regardless of the source, packet type, or quantity. DDoS attacks can not only prevent your server from being accessable, they could literally bankrupt you if you become a target and don't take preventative measures.

    Hmm... One click bankruptcy. I wonder if anyone has tried to patent this yet...

    Our ISP was technically capable of detecting and thwarting various attacks. Ultimately, the policy of monitoring and contacting an ISP when traffic exceeds a certain threshold seems like a workable solution for average co-locaters.

    Given the architecture of the Internet, it's difficult to see how we could shift the burden to pay away from the server to the client. It seems like a problem remarkably similar to the problem of spam.

    --

    My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it!

  14. Bad business by Obiwan+Kenobi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you treat your customers like this, you're going to lose them. Simple as that.

    I liked the analogy someone else came up with, such as someone running an extension cord from your house to theirs. Who is responsible here?

    If I had hosting with your company, and the slammer bug hit servers that your sys admins failed to update, then you better eat that burstable bandwidth bill or a lawsuit couldn't be far behind (depending on the amount, of course). If the servers were my responsibility, including keeping them updated, etc, then I could understand your reasoning.

    If a DDoS attack cripples my site, and you expect me to pay for that, you're sorely mistaken.

    The simple fact is if they caused it, they paid for it. This includes patches/fixes the customer should've implemented. If you run and maintain that server for them, then no bill increase should be applied.

    If someone out in the world caused it, a random malicious event that they just so happened to be on the brunt end of, just throw away that burstable bandwidth bill and make sure your customer knows you did them a favor.

    It may not be your place as to pay for that second scenario, but you'll keep your customers longer, keep them happier and keep word of mouth on your company going strong.

    It's just good business. Were this my company, I would never even think of treating customers this way.

  15. Look at it historically by paleck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work for a small local ISP, before making any decisions we always look at it historically using MRTG. If the customer all of a sudden starts spiking up from their normal amount of traffic, then we will let it slide at first. We will warn them that they may need to check to see if there are any updates for their computers that can help. Also we tell them what to check for regarding P2P programs on computers that they may not know about. If it continues then we are justified in charging them more, because they didn't heed our warnings the first time. Most of the time the customers computer(s) are at fault for the bursts that are coming on their connection. Don't know if this helps in your case, but it seems to work well for us.

  16. Here's the problem Jerky... by Jim+Ethanol · · Score: 3, Informative

    The problem with billing for excessive inbound traffic is that the user has absolutely no control over what they receive.

    You can have the most sophisticated firewall on the planet, but due the immutable laws of IPv4 you can NOT drop a packet until you see the packet. At which point you've already used the bandwidth (and incurred the cost) required to transport the packet that you're just going to drop.

    This has nothing to do with patching your server. If you don't patch your server, and you get hit with a worm, and your box starts consuming huge amounts of bandwidth to attack other hosts, then it's your fault, and its OUTBOUND traffic, and you absolutely should pay for it. But having your server patched does not stop you from receiving inbound packets. They may not harm your server when they get to it, but you already paid for the transit.

    BTW, This is why it's illegal for a telemarketer to call you on your cell phone. Because in theory you had to answer the call (and incur expense) BEFORE you knew who was on the other end.

    This is a similar issue, except that we're not talking about telemarketers... which are businesses that more or less follow the rules. We're talking about script kiddies that don't care about the rules. Or in a worse case, we're talking about a competitor, or enemy, or rival that just wants to DOS you for a month until you go out of business because of all the excess bandwidth charges you're paying!

    The technology limits the liability of the consumer. The ISP must take some responsibility here and put systems in place that protect the consumer.

    -JE

  17. Utility Billing.. by trefoil · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I work for company that writes Utility Billing Software.. from the way that we see it... there's fixed and variable pricing.. make a cost benefit analysis and figure out where the break should be for people to have a fixed fee versus variable.. in events such as the slammer virus.. treat it like a water main break and eat the cost.. it's like telling someone it's there fault they drive a car, that it got broken in to.. if the bandwidth is directly attributed to a situation that is out of the users control, then don't charge them for it.. but if they don't patch up once a patch becomes available (this should also mean that you, the ISP, has the patches readily available so there is no excuse by the user for not doing it), then those later fees should be attributed to the customer..

  18. 95th percentile model anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I thought many bandwidth providers had moved to a 95th percentile model to bill for bandwidth. Ignore the top 5% of the usage samples for this month and bill at the customer's 95% usage. This means that any sudden spike doesn't count against your bandwidth. Lots of spikes, or a spike that is not handled within a day moves the 95th percentile way up.
    Our upstreams bill us this way, and all of our burstable downstream customers are billed this way. It works well that way.

  19. Re:I say charge the customer by Enry · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How shortsighted.

    For one thing, the packets go down the wire wether the service is running or not. Thousands of requests per second to a box that isn't running the service still has to respond and say "sorry, not running here". Even if it's a few bytes per, it adds up quickly.

    Should a customer be charged for requests coming in for a service they don't offer? No, that's the point of the firewall (or packet filter really).

    ISPs could have a new revenue stream by looking at this problem differently.

    They can offer a firewall for a per-month fee and waive any bandwith increases as a result of DDOS attack or other work-checking that could be blocked by the firewall. An active firewall could proxy HTTP requests, also filtering out common IIS exploits.

    User doesn't want the firewall? Fine, you're responsible for all charges.

    This would at least give end users an option instead of what will border on collusion when all the AUP/TOSs change to read the same thing.

  20. proof of malicious intent by ShortSpecialBus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    unfortunately, there would have to be proof of malicious intent, or at LEAST a reasonable knowledge taht linking to the page would cause the business to lose money.
    While /. would have a reasonable knowledge taht linking to the page will cause the page to load slowly, they don't know what sort of connection the page is on, nor is it their responsibility to find out.

    The day anybody becomes liable for linking to a page on the internet will be the end of the world wide web...that's the whole premise of the thing...

    The only thing I can think of is something similar to the robots.txt file...have your webserver have a slashdot.txt file that says something like NoSlashdotLinkage = true in it or something, anything similar to the thing for preventing search engines.

    --
    //FIXME: Bad .sig
  21. Fairer - sent or solicited - a modest proposal: by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Every ISP should base charges only on how much traffic you send. That would give people a real incentive to keep their systems patched and secured. You wouldn't have to pay a ridiculous amount if you're on the receiving end of a DOS. You would have to pay if your systems get hacked or catch a worm though.

    Good idea but it doesn't quite go far enough.

    You should be billed for the traffic you CAUSE or SOLICIT, and thus have control over. Much of internet traffic is things like web browsing, which invovles a small request soliciting a large reply. If you suck down 60 megabytes of web porn, MP3s, or ftp downloads, it's your bill. Similarly if you host a server, which accepts little requests and pours out data, it's your bill.

    But if somebody starts sending you unsolicited packets, that's like somebody making nuisance calls or pages. (You will notice that pagers, at least, are generally NOT billed by the page. They tried that, and the customers rebelled because they had no way to block idiots with autodialers.)

    So something with a little deeper visibility is in order. Here's a fair approach:

    TCP: You get billed if you make, attempt to make, or accept, a connection. You don't get billed for attempted connections you refuse or that don't get completed (i.e. SYN and other DOS attacks).

    UDP: You get billed for outgoing UDP packets. If the billing machine is sufficiently stateful, you might also be billed for incoming UDP packets that ARE replies to a recent outgoing UDP request using a well-known UDP request/reply protocol. (This would prevent cheating but still protect you against getting billed for both DOS attacks and forged-reply billing attacks.)

    ICMP: All are free except outgoing EHCO REQUEST (ping), because they're a mandated part of the network overhead. (You don't want to bill inbound ECHO REPLIES to prevent billing for forged reply attacks. But you might bill ECHO REQUEST as if it went both inbound and outbound, to cover the expected ECHO REPLY without making the billing machine stateful about ping "connections".)

    That should pretty much cover it. Customers would:
    - be fairly billed for the bandwidth they used, caused to be used, or allowed to be used,
    - not be billed for unsolicited "phone calls", DoS attacks, or mandated network overhed, and
    - have a strong financial incentive to keep their system secured against crackers and malware (such as viruses and worms).

    And installing a get-around-the-billing hack (like PPP-over-ECHOREPLY) would be a violation of terms-of-service and cause for disconnection - or changing the billing of that customer back to "all bandwidth co$t$" B-)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  22. Legal Liability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What you may be interested in is where you stand legally. A RAND study made during the middle eighties (obviously not internet related) covering similar thefts returned the following conclusion.

    In the case where the theft occured (mutually) from both a commercial and private victim, the commercial victim is generally assigned the majority of the loss because they are considered to have superior knowledge and been in a better position to have prevented the theft from taking place.

    Since the theft was allowed by two enteties (the target Computer and the ISP servers that allowed the theft to take place), both entities would probably be apportioned a percentage of the cost.

    Since this has never gone to court, there is no case material to set some form of guidelines.

    My guess is that apportioning the entire blame to the customer (and billing them) would not hold up if the customer filed against you.

    Depending on what measures your ISP has taken to prevent this type of abuse (filters, scanning, etc.) you could probably get away with some form of apportionment where the customer is billed for part of the cost.

    Tom

  23. ITU rule on charging by Animats · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The ITU rule for telephony is that "charging begins when the connection becomes bidirectional". That's not directly applicable to raw IP, but it can be applied to anything behind a stateful firewall or DHCP router. That way, customers don't get charged for IP-level attacks, which they can't stop, but they do get charged for anything they reply to.

    Big attacks should be reported to Homeland Security. (Really. Effective March 1, Homeland Security runs the National Infrastructure Protection Center. ISPs are going to be dealing with them on a regular basis.)

  24. I get What i Pay for by visionsofmcskill · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ISP's should eat the costs.... If you provide me with a service that claims to provide me with a certain bandwidth.... then that is what i get.

    Because YOUR (isp) system of delivering bandwidth is faulty or doesnt account for abuse potentials is NOT my (consumer) fault.

    If you decide to enforce a D/L cap, i myself will not be your customer....

    If i was the average joe who opted to take on that bandwidth cost then i would blame YOU the ISP for allowing malicous data to be replicated at obvious expense.... as in if a port is responsible for great amounts of malicous (repetitive, near obvious redundant packet exchanges indicitive of an attack, worm, or virus).

    The whole thing is, as an isp... the service you provide should be a fully enclosed package... no hidden/additional costs. And bandwidth capping should not incur automatic additonal costs to the consumer after a limit is reached, it should result in a great limiting of bandwidth (after a certain amount is reached) or in a blocked connection (allow only the company's IP until the customer buys more bandwidth).

    My personal opinion, we are getting dicked by the tele-comunications industry from the top down... everything from home phones, cable, cell phones, broadband, T1's and more are greviously over-priced at a near basement cost to the mother companies. By the time a consumer recieves their data the fixed price of hardware and the cost of ELECTRICTY has been multiplied ten-fold. Mid-Range ISP's are being squeezed by the big players, and in turn are having to offer misleadingly high "bandwidth" speeds with BullShit Capping.

    Downloading megabytes into your cell-phone doesnt cost sprint shit, but youll have to pay 1.00 per DL.

    Of course the tel-co's are screaming bloody murder about their losses, but it isn't from data rates.


    As a last note.... when we were all using 56kbps modems you could DL for days on end... you could call your local BBS and be charged a phone call while DLing full-speed for hours.... No extra cost... didn't cost them a thing since we payed for the phone-call.... Now that High-Speed is in the home.... and the tel-co's found they could save even more money by offering bandwidth speeds based on diluted averages of many users, they think it's fair to make more money by punishing those who ACTUALY USE THEIR bandwidth. Bandwidth which is only ELECTRICTY. Do you honestly think Time warner can offer 500 channels of digital cable, with "on demand" channels (where you can choose a movie and play it immedietly) for 60$ bucks a month and not provide that same (nearly continuous) data rate to internet connections?

    luckily.... with the advent of online movies, music and application servers and such, soon even joe email will be needing a constant high-speed connection.

    Just my two cents.... VISION
    --Enter The Sig--

    --
    --Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
    1. Re:I get What i Pay for by man_ls · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Burstable bandwidth means you're paying for this much - but if your server for some reason needs more, instead of being screwed and dropping connections, your server gets more bandwidth, which you pay for.

      Good for low-useage servers with very short spikes of popularity.

      You've just said that the ISP should eat the cost of the extra bandwidth...why? You agreed to burstable charges...they gave you more in advance, on condition you would pay for it with your next bill.

      "Because YOUR (isp) system of delivering bandwidth is faulty or doesnt account for abuse potentials is NOT my (consumer) fault."

      "If you decide to enforce a D/L cap, i myself will not be your customer...."

      With that type of an attitude, you're saying you are entitled to unlimited bandwidth. The datacenter has an OC-48 into it...does that mean you're entitled to that? Not unless you paid for it...

      The network has the capability to deliver high speeds, but if you didn't pay for that speed you're not entitled to it any more than someone who doesn't have the service at all is.

  25. Just like in real life by raarts · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Suppose you live on a crosspoint of several countries. Your house happens to be located in a dangerous curve on the road. Also for some reason your house looks to some kiddies like it asks to be vandalized.

    For these reasons you get a lot of breakin attempts, occasionally a truck crashes through your walls. All this is not only by people from your own country, but from neighbouring countries as well.

    You install warning lights and other measures so cars and trucks don't come in crashing. You call the police when kiddies vandalize your home, but they says they can't do anything.

    All this costs you a lot of money and headaches.

    In real life there are several ways to defend yourself:

    • taking your own safety measures as can reasonably be expected from a houseowner
    • get insured for the unexpected
    • trust the police the catch criminals
    • trust international law enforcement for border-crossing crimes

    Now apply these principles to your hosting server.

    • Of course you should take every precaution within reason to prevent your server from being hacked (keep it up to date folks)
    • Get an insurance for unexpected costs. I'll bet insurance companies could do well here
    • Trust the cops for catching the script kiddies and real criminals. Alas, the police is hopeless understaffed and low on resources for these new crimes. Also legislation is lagging behind
    • International laws? Don't count on it. Same as above, but worse.

    Suppose your house is rented. Is the person renting you the house responsible for every breach? Did he warn you before you signed the contract? Is it his responsability to call you every time some vandals are passing on the road? Or some truck may crash into your home?

    Of course your ISP can warn you for every threat that may be coming, but what if there's no warning time? Or he misses a small thing that happens to affect your server bigtime? Is the ISP really responsible?

    Be careful out there...

  26. Hrm by pclminion · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Well, here's the scenario people seem to be putting forth:

    ISP A has customer X. ISP B has malicious user Y. Malicious user Y sends huge quantities of packets to user X.

    The question seems to be, should ISP A eat the cost, or should customer X eat it? Why the hell are those the only two options?! It seems to me like ISP *B* should eat the cost, since the malicious packets were sent through their network in the first place. ISP B can attempt to recover their loss directly from malicious user Y.

    The ISP *and* the customer are both victims in a DOS attack. Whoever runs the network which *initiated* the attack should be responsible.

  27. Whats to stop e-embezzelment? by The_Dougster · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Take this scenario:

    1. I run a web hosting company and charge you for bandwidth.
    2. I call my buddy and tell him to hammer your site unmercifully with everything he's got.
    3. ???
    4. Profit!


    No law against this. It like me providing you with a doorbell service. If I want more money, I just keep pushing the button. If you were dumb enough to sign up for this then you'd better trust me.
    --
    Clickety Click ...
  28. If I get slashdotted... by NFW · · Score: 3, Funny
    CmdrTaco will pay.

    One way or another...

    Oh yes, he will pay.

    --
    Build stuff. Stuff that walks, stuff that rolls, whatever.
  29. People should be accountable by chunkwhite86 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    People should be accountable. If their PC is infected with a worm or virus which results in a large bandwidth bill, the customer is responsible to pay it. Afterall, the ISP has a bandwidth bill to pay too, and they certainly don't get a "service credit" just because your Windoze box has W32@Klez.

    In addition, Making the people responsible for their personal worm/virus traffic would make folks would be more proactive about virus prevention and more cautious of which sites they visit. This IMHO is a Good Thing.

    Another potential positive would be that people might start wondering "Why does my friend/relative who runs Linux never complain about viruses?" and "Gee with all these viruses that only affect microsoft products, maybe I should look elsewhere for my software needs."

    At least in my state, you are responsible for your car's emissions. If your car is polluting above the state limit, regardless of the reason, it is your responsibility to fix it. They don't care what the reason is for your excessive emissions, whether it was rust, hungry chipmunks, incompetant redneck mechanics, or just a poorly built ford suv. And they have a system of mandatory repairs and/or fines in place to enforce this. This is a Good Thing.

    --
    I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
  30. Real world not like posts on /. by Hornstar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What many posts in this thread do not seem to take into account is the greater reality that is the web. With a completely patched server and firewalling that drops packets not desired to hit said server, incoming bandwidth is changed none-whatsoever. You have zero control over traffic until that traffic hits a device under your direct control. With most ISP's, that device can only be placed well past their traffic monitoring point. Ergo, you pay for bandwidth whether you want it or not.

    You do have the ability to reduce the total amount of bandwith consumed by dropping unwanted return connections but that may be irrelevant if your site is subjected to a DDoS attack.

    The largest problem lies in determining whether traffic is "legitimate" traffic BEFORE it passes through the ISP's network to the client. That said, there are a great many possible ways to accomplish this, such as:

    • Historical traffic pattern comparisons: A connection that has never received a UDP packet in its history may not suddenly want 2Gb worth of UDP queries. That traffic can be dropped (or at least throttled) to minimize customer impact.
    • Customer specified port use: Offer co-lo customers the ability to limit port access at the ISP router, offer to limit basic Internet Service customers to standard outgoing ports at same.
    • Reality-based connection management: An amalgam of the above, if a client machine suddenly starts generating continuous outgoing connections to web servers, it might be possible that the client does not want to view 400 porn sites per minute. Use logic and reason to control outgoing and incoming traffic.

    The above are merely ideas or concepts, I will leave implementation to those that require the features. But it gives a good idea of the directions that an ISP can go to mitigate the costs of unwanted bandwidth. Just like Credit Card companies will call a customer to verify that they really do want to purchase that Tiffany diamond in a State they've never visited before, maybe ISP's should be monitoring traffic for irregular patterns and contacting customers to verify that the traffic is legitimate.

    ISP's can't merely turn a blind eye when the entire netblock they serve starts sending or receiving traffic generated by the latest worm, virus, etc. They should do their best to mitigate their losses and losses of their customers.

    I'm not saying that customers are without blame, just that the people running ISP's may have more technical knowledge that that of their customers and should be proactive in protecting those customers from further harm. If you want a real-world, non-technical example, think Firestone and Ford. A problem created outside of Ford that could have been eliminated before reaching the customer if only greater due dilligence had been used. By ignoring or overlooking the problem (I don't know the exact details) both Ford and its customers were negatively impacted. Was it Ford's fault that the tires were faulty? No. Could they have done something about the tires earlier? Possibly. Could the customer do something about the tires? Yes, but only after they knew of the problem by experiencing the negative consequences.

    The scenario doesn't differ much when applied to unwanted bandwidth. If ISP's fail to do their part, unwitting customers will always suffer.

  31. How it works here by ziegast · · Score: 4, Informative
    I currently work for an ISP that offers shared and dedicated web services. The Terms of Service that the customer signs are pretty explicit about their being responsible for bandwidth usage.

    A few notes about charging for bandwidth:
    • As a hosting provider, we get charged for traffic in the greater of two directions - outbound. We don't normally charge customers for inbound bandwidth.

    • We rate limit traffic from all servers to 10Mbps as a precaution to protect ourselves. Being a relatively small provider, it is VERY rare that we or a customer of ours runs a server that generates more than 1-2 MBps of traffic. Everyone has a 10/100 port though, so the potential for a customer (or a customer's hacked machine) to do damage is possible. If someone wants the rate limit removed, we warn them again that they are responsible for their traffic.

    • We offer rate limiting to our customers if they are afraid about bandwidth costs. This might normally be a 1.5x the rate they're normally budgeting each month. Many customers find that rate limiting makes their site too slow, but riding a bike with training wheels is slow too (but you're less likely to fall down).

    • We charge by GigaBytes per mo. It's easy to track in web logs and packet counters and customers can write scripts to monitor how much they've used during the month and take appropriate steps toward teh end of the month. This amounts to our charging for average (50th percentile) pricing. We charge enough so that even if they spiked at twice their average, we wouldn't lose money on our bandwidth costs. On average, though, we make money.

    • If a customer doesn't pay, we shut them off and can take them to small claims court based on the TOS agreement.


    These are some of the steps we use to protect ourselves and our customers. Your milage may vary.

    (We use packeteer for rate limiting, but I keep eyeballing OpenBSD/AltQ/PF for both rate limiting and firewalling for our customers).
  32. Not vandalism, wireless spam by rnapier · · Score: 3, Informative
    There's been a lot of talk comparing this to vandals coming and screwing with your server or your property. This isn't like that. If your server gets trashed, that's your problem. The issue here is incoming bandwidth that you didn't ask for and have done everything in your power to make go away.

    Compare this to someone constantly text-messaging spam to your wireless phone. You could quickly run up an insane bill that way, and there's really nothing you could do about it. The wireless company is contractually in its rights to charge you.

    But it won't.

    That's how they work. Someone screws with you, typically the provider eats it, especially if there was nothing you could do about it. That puts the incentive back onto the one entity who can actually do something about it: the providers. True for wireless. True for credit cards. True for just about anything where the end user can't do anything to stop the abuse.

    The ISPs can do something about it. They have chosen not to because of how we (the geeks) developed the internet. It's too trusting. But at the end of the day, your ISP does know who you are, because they send you a bill. And they could apply uniform terms of service if they chose to, and only talk to other ISPs who have similar terms.

    The RBLs are the future. They just don't go far enough. When they're willing to not just cut off SMTP but entire connectivity to other ISPs who aren't willing to play by uniform rules, then we'll start to see some changes. What kinds of rules? Here's some for starters:

    • Authenticated mail only. Yep, this looks like banks' "know your customer" rules. You can be anonymous all you like up to the point that you connect to the mailer. But the guy who forwards mail for you is going to be held responsible for your behavior. Yes, that will radically change the free-service providers (yahoo, hotmail, etc). They're free to come up with solutions that don't require them to know exactly who you are, but if they host spammers, we're not going to talk to them. This is just the logical extension of RBLs.
    • Same deal for acting as a DDoS zombie. The owner of the unpatched box is responsible, but it's the responsibility of the ISP to be able to identify that person for legal action. If they can't or won't, then we don't talk to them.
    None of this says that you can't be anonymous most of the time. It just says that if you're disrupting service and causing real losses due to your actions or lack of actions, your ISP is going to have to hand you over, or they're going to be held responsible. The right to privacy has to be balance with responsibility for your actions.

    The old-world networks (phones) have worked this way for years. I can block my out-bound caller-id. I can have an unlisted phone number. I can be very anonymous on the phone. But if I'm named in a law suit or criminal complaint, the phone company will hand me over in a heart beat. The only way around this is pay phones with cash. It's hard to run a large-scale scam that way.

    And no, this doesn't mean that an ISP's logs are free game to the RIAA. But it does mean that if the RIAA wants to name a specific "unknown party" in a lawsuit, the ISP is obligated to identify them. Before you get excited, that's exactly the current situation. The RIAA just wants to get the info without actually suing you (which is wrong, and luckily some ISPs have resisted). ISPs need to be willing to say they will only interconnect with other ISPs who play by the same rules.

    Yes, this will fragment the internet for a short period of time. So do the RBLs. But economics will fix it fast enough, especially if entire connectivity is cut off.

  33. ISPs aren't 'the internet' by adri · · Score: 3, Informative

    So far, I think many posters have forgotten one simple fact.

    ISPs don't have infinite bandwidth.

    I know, its quite a strange idea. But think of this.

    If you're a ISP in a single location, chances are you're buying a few (hundred?) megabits off your upstreams. Unless your upstreams are happy to filter traffic they send to you (and unless its a very large DDoS, most of them will take a while to implement any access control), the ISP will still be charged for traffic sent to a customer even if the customer chooses to reject it.

    Similarly, if the ISP provides filtering support for their customers, they still receieve the traffic and bite the usage.

    Now, if you're a large ISP and have links to other peering exchanges. Even, say, you peer enough to not really need transit. These inter-state links still cost money. And they're fixed. So if a customer is hit with a DDoS they'll still be carrying it _somewhere_.

    Even if this mythical tier-${LOWNUM} ISP with lots of fat peering links has some magical scripts to filter out DDoS traffic to a given customer range, it still will hit their border routers. So their peering cross connects have already been filled. The only way around this is to deal with their peers.. .. Now for the juicy bits. This happens. Every day. The large network NOCs are in constant communication with each other about large DDoS attacks. The little ones slip through the cracks until people complain but generally the large network NOCs will have many other issues to deal with so in a way I don't really blame them.

    But they don't really have the incentive to spend all their time dealing with smaller networks being attacked. They'd be worried with keeping their network from melting under a few larger ones.

    The flipside. If you're an ISP with enough bandwidth (and not high-profile sites like irc servers or pr0n) you might be willing to bite the costs of various attacks as part of a marketing point. Customers may come to you because you have a reputation of being lenient under attacks. Perhaps. But thats a delicate line.

    Me, I dig flatrate pipes. Usage based pipes is just asking to be owned by excess traffic. If I buy a megabit then all I really have to worry about is service degradation due to DoS. ISPs, in my experience, will help you with that. But if you're on a usage based pipe which then gets owned by a DDoS you're struggling after the fact to get a rebate. Good luck.

    (Although, that said, perhaps you guys should consider asking for usage based pipes that _have_ a bandwidth cap. Figure out what your maximum spend amount is, say 5mbit, and then ask for a usage-based pipe based on that. That way you limit your liability _AND_ getting the cheaper transit. Most of the time.)