Posted by
CmdrTaco
on from the standardizing-on-no-standards dept.
Corrado writes "According to this article over at Linux Box SuSE Is "Reevaulating Our Relationship" with SCO Group. There is also a reference to this article in wired about OSS developers rallying behind IBM. The best line of the article is "Eric Raymond called SCO's move 'deeply stupid...'""
Re:SuSE *IS* United Linux
by
krray
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Well, I would _think_ UnitedLinux would want to use one of their own members distrobution, but there is nothing to say that UnitedLinux couldn't base their system off of RedHat -- even though RedHat isn't a member.
Are they pretty screwed though? Yeah...
Re:SuSE *IS* United Linux
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 5, Funny
Ah, but United Linux is much more than just Suse 8.1. No one part of United Linux is greater than any other part. Caldera, Conectiva, SuSE and Turbolinux have all combined into one Linux distro.
Its kind of like Voltron for crap.
Re:SuSE *IS* United Linux
by
Angry+White+Guy
·
· Score: 5, Funny
And Calderra/SCO will form the asshole.
-- You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
Bad news.
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
This is very bad news. I thought UnitedLinux was actually a good idea. It's sad to see it start dissolving because of one bad member. Is there any way for the other groups to kick SCO out, or perhaps form a different group and exclude SCO. This would be a better alternative than everyone splintering again.
The SCO suit is an example of what happens to former SCO technology development partners. Its perfectly reasonable to view a frivolous lawsuit like this as an indication that SCO is not a safe company to collaborate with. UnitedLinux members: watch out.
Re:Bad news.
by
tomhudson
·
· Score: 4, Interesting
from the unitedlinux site:
01/14/2003
UnitedLinux Signs IBM and AMD as First Technology Partners
Didn't take them long (less than 2 months) to screw over their first serious partner. I figured there'd be problems when I tried to download their (unitedlinux) distro after they sent me an email saying it was available, and their server was pretty much hosed.
It is ironic that Caldera's last stand in Linux territory, UnitedLinux, is losing support because its only potential source of income (licensing and suing for license violations) seems to have its sights on milking IBM and Linux itself. Am I smelling mismanagement? UnitedLinux could have actually migrated SCO from UNIX to Linux, but instead now they're going to have to either convince companies to not migrate to Linux, or convince judges that Linux is a derivative of UNIX, and start charging license fees.
-- Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
They don't have to convince judges that Linux is 'a derivative of' UNIX. At least not for patent infringement lawsuits. With patents, you are still infringing even if you independently come up with the same idea. This is one reason why patents suck when applied to software, where coming up with new ideas is not the difficult part so much as the implementation, even though patents may give a net economic benefit in other fields of endeavour.
That's a little bit like saying that all a company needs to do is release one of their software products under the GPL and magically, any other party can then put that company's code into a GPL product and it's legal.
It's not at all like saying that. It's saying that if you hold a software patent, and release an implementation of that patent under the GPL, everybody who uses the GPL can use your patent. If they have patents that cover Linux, and they ship linux under the GPL, they've given free license to their patents, but if they have other patents that aren't implemented in linux, then other companies/people still have to arrange for licensing.
Unless SCO/Caldera put the code in question into the Linux software base themselves, that sorts of claims are groundless.
They didn't have to put them there, they just had to ship them. By redistributing them they agreed to the terms of the GPL implicitly.
Caldera sposored the work in question
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Caldera (as early as 1995) sponsored the work they now have a problem with.
The so called "Enterprise features" were developed by the Linux community on hardware provided by Caldera and with support of Caldera Engineers. Which means that they knew what development was under way, at the very least. IBM had very little to do with it, but some of the Linux Community hackers now work there (yeah IBM).
Caldera was involved in selling Linux into the traditional SCO markerplace long before IBM even took notice, and had some of the best talent in Utah, who had seen the internals of UNIX at Novell before it was sold to SCO, working on it.
This suit shows a complete lack of history at Caldera/SCO, which is not surprising since they have had huge staff turn over in thier death throws. Here's hoping they go away quickly, if not quietly... just like their bastard child Lineo did.
Re:Caldera sposored the work in question
by
Alan+Cox
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Let me provide specific data on that
Caldera provided me the SMP machine that was used to write Linux SMP support, that was why they provided it and thats one big reason it happened at that time.
And most of the theory for it came not from secret unix knowledge but a book 8)
SCO v. IBM...it's not gonna happen.
by
MsGeek
·
· Score: 4, Funny
Fearless prediction: SCO's lawsuit isn't going to get a chance to happen. IBM buys SCO. End of lawsuit, end of story. I think this is the outcome the tattered remnants of SCO wanted in the first place.
-- Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Re:SCO v. IBM...it's not gonna happen.
by
Otter
·
· Score: 5, Informative
OK, for the zillionth time...
The group that controls SCO has a 5.8% share in TrollTech. They do not in any way control the company. Even by the usual standards of anti-Qt/KDE FUD, claiming they have any significant connection to SCO is pretty weak.
Which Article Did Slashdot Editors Read?
by
Carnage4Life
·
· Score: 4, Informative
According to the current text in the linked article SuSe explicitly stated that they still support UnitedLinux. The relevant excerpt is
"Accordingly, we are currently reevaluating our relationship with the SCO Group," Seibt continued. "That said,
we want to very clearly and unequivocally voice our support of the ideals and goals of UnitedLinux and the Linux community."
Re:Which Article Did Slashdot Editors Read?
by
Gleef
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
We all read the same article. SuSE said it supports the ideals and goals of UnitedLinux, but left out any indication of support of the actions or current composition. They also said they were reevaluating their relationship to the SCO group and that:
SuSE's VP of Corporate Communications. Eckert confirmed that the "relationship with the SCO Group" was in fact the UnitedLinux consortium aarrangment[sic].
So they are reevaluating their membership in the UnitedLinux consortium, as that membership is their primary (and perhaps only) relationship with SCO Group. I'm sure if SCO were to leave the UnitedLinux consortium, SuSE would be happy to stay.
--
----
Open mind, insert foot.
United Linux and/or LSB
by
einhverfr
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Personally I am looking forward to seeing the vendors do exactly what you are describing. But take a look for a moment--
The standardization process for Linux is the LSB. That is where our efforts should be placed. If vendors want to pool their efforts beyond that, all good and well, but the LSB should be our primary focus.
Actually, I am glad to see SuSE make this move. Unfortunately this may be *REALLY BAD* for TurboLinux but they should have known what they were getting into.
Re:Which would be better...
by
sweetooth
·
· Score: 5, Funny
I've got it....
ReUnited Linux!
Oh dear.... did I actually just post that?
[OT] Re:ESR's Site?
by
aridhol
·
· Score: 4, Informative
For some reason, tuxedo.org randomly forwards you to other sites. However, ESR's page is alive and well at http://www.catb.org/~esr/. I can't find any reason for the change on the website, though.
-- I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
They'd be making the right decision in pulling out of UL. From my own personal experience working _at_ IBM, I can tell you first hand the commitment they have towards the Linux community is very real. Conversely, I don't think the Linux community has anything to fear by putting their support behind Big Blue.
Its pretty obvious that SCO's recent "Hail Mary" play is falling flat on its face..Rather than adapt their business model, they're executing one last, desparate attempt to stay in business without a viable customer pool.
Sad, when you get down to it. The suits at SCO are going to run that company into the ground.
"Eric Raymond called SCO's move 'deeply stupid...'"
During a talk here in Oxford University's computing lab, Eric Raymond proclaimed that "UNIX died because it was closed-source", and then refused to accept that Microsoft's multi-billion dollar success suggested that otherwise.
Ever since then, I've taken ESR's pronouncements with several grains of salt.
1) Try to choose working with as many partners as possible in a spirit of cooperation.
2) Do not reap the PR benefits, nor spin the relationship strongly in the public eye at all.
3) Allow some partner to control the spin to their own agenda (in this case Caldera/SCO).
4) Eventually find that the partner has taken a (to SuSE's viewpoint) incredulous stand. Publically state that they do not agree.
5) Partnership and sails of other company deflate/dissolve.
SuSE is a somewhat naive company in the way it forms alliance, makes choices, etc. They do not believe in strong spin or overbearing marketing. They do not believe in half-truth statements or downplaying their competitors. There may be exceptions to this (there's no single decisionmaker running the whole show), but as a general rule it holds.
When I was there, it was fairly common for them to observe a sharply competitive move and collectively shake their heads. They _do_ believe in making better products, so this kind of competition is welcomed with open arms, but patent lawsuits are viewed in this sort of way I see as typical german: "This is not good."
All in all, I have to say I saw this as the eventual outcome of United Linux. I see SuSE and Connectiva as technology leaders, with Turbo and SCO/Caldera ultimately hamstrung by the strange politics/business of their leadership. The former can make a solid partnership, no doubt, the latter pair do not belong in the same ship.
-- -josh
Re:Typical SuSE
by
Hambone.dk
·
· Score: 5, Insightful
"Translation: they are not an American company."
And don't I wish there were more companies with similar attitudes. When it comes to business ethics, American companies aren't exactly the most shining examples...
No, no, not *that* kind of piracy. I mean *real* piracy. With ships, and cannon, and lots of a "Avast there"'s in it and stuff.
I think Doug Fairbanks might have something to do with it too, but I'm a little fuzzy on that part, so don't quote me.
Anyway, around the turn of the century, no, not *that* century. Ummmm, no, not that century either. 1700 to 1800. Various "states" in Northern Africa practiced actual piracy, capturing ships, ransoming the men on board or selling them into slavery if no ransom was paid.
Better yet, they could make a lot of money without any risk if they captured a few ships and then used the terror factor to demand *tribute* from other nations. The would be known as a "protection racket" if it were done on a smaller scale.
And it worked. Most of Europe caved in and payed the tribute. ( Not that the pirates didn't make the occasional "mistake" and sieze a lucrative looking prize anyway, but what the hell).
America held out. America had no Navy and no standing army. So they bloody well built them and went to war. In legitimate defense, of the world even (go figure). The modern Marine Corps was born out of this, and when the song mentions Tripoli this is the conflict it refers to.
The conflict lasted four years, but America, young, brash and still idealistic America, on its own, rid the world of these pirates.
Why am I going on about this?
Well, think about it, what is SCO doing right now?
Practicing true computer piracy, that's what. Demanding tribute on a claim that everyone knows is essentially bogus.
What do we do about it?
Well, an American congressman, in reaction to the demand for tribute from the pirates, made a statement that became the rallying cry in the war against the pirates of the Barbary Coast and an American policy for ever after ( well, at least until Reagan).
"Millions for defence. Not one damned penny for tribute."
That's the way to handle SCO. This is not a time to be "pragmatic" as the lawyer and the accountant see pragmatism.
At the very least SCO should be shunned and isolated. Compleat noncooperation throughout the entire industry. Ostracised in the literal sense. Banished to die in the wilderness. Call them Ishmael. SuSE shouldn't pull out of United Linux. SCO should be ejected.
But beyond that they should not be payed one single penny, not even to save millions in legal fees. They are pirates. They are demanding tribute AS pirates. They need to be crushed. Ultimately and completely.
Please. IBM, I implore you. Stay the course. Buy up what remains of their bloody legal corpse for fractions of a penny on the dollar *after* you have crushed them and reduced their value as a company to nil.
"Millions for defence. Not one damned penny for tribute."
I'm pretty sure it was President Andrew Jackson made this statement. Other than that, you pretty well cover the Barbary pirates situation, though you failed to mention that several European countries could have easily dealt with the problem, but refused to do so due to politics - much to the anger of many British naval officers who didn't like to see British sailors in slavery.
But I'm off-topic and will probably be moderated as such (and I deserve it).
A big well known network gear manufacturer has decided to rename itself 'CI'.
Its spokesman stated : 'With those #@$à3 guys there over at SCO, we didn't wanted anymore to have this acronym inside our name, so we just removed it'
-- #include "coucou.h"
Linux is dying...
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 5, Funny
...as independent reports confirm. So before you're forced to buy Windows and go to the Dark Side, come on over to the BSD. It's like the Other Light Side Of The Force.
FreeBSD is an excellent choice of operating system. We're happy to share it with any poor Linux refugees such as yourself. I think you've all suffered enough.
(With only a hint of sarcasm.:)
In other news, the dinosaurs...
by
expro
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Um, where was the open source version of Windows that Microsoft had to compete against?
In other news, scientists proclaimed that dinosaurs died because they were no longer adapted to the environment, and then refused to accept that their huge skeletons and the large quantity of other life forms they consumed proved otherwise.
Cue up the banjoes, boys. "The Beverly Hillbillies", if ya please.
o/~ Ooooooo...lemme tell a story 'bout a group called SCO, they was havin' them some difficulty rakin' in the dough. They was lookin' at th'marketplace, decidin' what to do when they saw this li'l penguin an they figgered they would sue....
Big Blue that is. IBM. Deeeep pockets. Moola moooola....
So they filed them a lawsuit a couple billion deep allegin' Blue had fed that bird through source code feature creep. Blue an' Penguin shook their heads, an' marvelled at this feat, sayin' "Not our faults you silly gits ain't able to compete..."
Squeezed by th'market. Billy Gates on one side, Torvaldes on t'other....squisha squish, yeah.
o/~
-- Horse_Pheathers
Consider the history of SCO...
by
Black+Copter+Control
·
· Score: 4, Informative
SCO started out life as a part of (tada!) Microsoft under the name Xenix. The group was then then split off/sold to the Santa Cruz Operation and then morphed into SCO.
They just happened to purchase the rights to UNIX somewhere along the line (that somewhere being rather near the end).
-- OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
News Flash! Rambus and SCO to merge!
by
Newer+Guy
·
· Score: 4, Funny
In a surprise news announcement, the Chairman of rambus announces a historic merger with SCO unix.
"The merged company - to be called RAMBO - will be poised to respond to the challenges of the 21st century" Chairman David Boies said today.
"We are in the enviable position of controlling both hardware and software Intellectual property"
Boies also announced Rambo's decision to sue Microsoft for the use of the name "windows".
and it's use for networking.
"I came up with the idea of windows networking
30 years ago" Boies said. "When I was a kid I opened the window and yelled to my friends that it was time to play baseball. This involved using a window to spread information to them. In other words, Windows networking"
Slashdot Mirror
Good for SuSE.
Why should they stick around when SCO shoots itself in the foot?
If SuSE drops out, do the "UnitedLinux" gang have anything left? Isn't UnitedLinux based upon SuSE 8.1?
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
SUSE spokesman Bruce Campbell was quoted as saying... "Look man, I dont even know these assholes!"
Fire in the hands of the village idiot is no tool, but a weapon of mass destruction
SCO lets loose with one of the silent-but-deadly variety, and everybody is still in the room?
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
This is the correct link http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,579 55,00.html
This is very bad news. I thought UnitedLinux was actually a good idea. It's sad to see it start dissolving because of one bad member. Is there any way for the other groups to kick SCO out, or perhaps form a different group and exclude SCO. This would be a better alternative than everyone splintering again.
It is ironic that Caldera's last stand in Linux territory, UnitedLinux, is losing support because its only potential source of income (licensing and suing for license violations) seems to have its sights on milking IBM and Linux itself. Am I smelling mismanagement? UnitedLinux could have actually migrated SCO from UNIX to Linux, but instead now they're going to have to either convince companies to not migrate to Linux, or convince judges that Linux is a derivative of UNIX, and start charging license fees.
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
Run like your thong is on fire....
I would not let my dog be associated with the three lettter acronym SCO.
Got Code?
Twenty years ago, I never would have believed that I'd be rooting for IBM's lawyers today.
Caldera (as early as 1995) sponsored the work they now have a problem with.
The so called "Enterprise features" were developed by the Linux community on hardware provided by Caldera and with support of Caldera Engineers. Which means that they knew what development was under way, at the very least. IBM had very little to do with it, but some of the Linux Community hackers now work there (yeah IBM).
Caldera was involved in selling Linux into the traditional SCO markerplace long before IBM even took notice, and had some of the best talent in Utah, who had seen the internals of UNIX at Novell before it was sold to SCO, working on it.
This suit shows a complete lack of history at Caldera/SCO, which is not surprising since they have had huge staff turn over in thier death throws. Here's hoping they go away quickly, if not quietly... just like their bastard child Lineo did.
Fearless prediction: SCO's lawsuit isn't going to get a chance to happen. IBM buys SCO. End of lawsuit, end of story. I think this is the outcome the tattered remnants of SCO wanted in the first place.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
SuSE (Software Und SystemEntwicklung) is German.
Personally I am looking forward to seeing the vendors do exactly what you are describing. But take a look for a moment--
The standardization process for Linux is the LSB. That is where our efforts should be placed. If vendors want to pool their efforts beyond that, all good and well, but the LSB should be our primary focus.
Actually, I am glad to see SuSE make this move. Unfortunately this may be *REALLY BAD* for TurboLinux but they should have known what they were getting into.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I've got it....
ReUnited Linux!
Oh dear.... did I actually just post that?
For some reason, tuxedo.org randomly forwards you to other sites. However, ESR's page is alive and well at http://www.catb.org/~esr/. I can't find any reason for the change on the website, though.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
They'd be making the right decision in pulling out of UL. From my own personal experience working _at_ IBM, I can tell you first hand the commitment they have towards the Linux community is very real. Conversely, I don't think the Linux community has anything to fear by putting their support behind Big Blue.
Its pretty obvious that SCO's recent "Hail Mary" play is falling flat on its face..Rather than adapt their business model, they're executing one last, desparate attempt to stay in business without a viable customer pool.
Sad, when you get down to it. The suits at SCO are going to run that company into the ground.
Bowie J. Poag
"Eric Raymond called SCO's move 'deeply stupid...'"
During a talk here in Oxford University's computing lab, Eric Raymond proclaimed that "UNIX died because it was closed-source", and then refused to accept that Microsoft's multi-billion dollar success suggested that otherwise.
Ever since then, I've taken ESR's pronouncements with several grains of salt.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
1) Try to choose working with as many partners as possible in a spirit of cooperation.
2) Do not reap the PR benefits, nor spin the relationship strongly in the public eye at all.
3) Allow some partner to control the spin to their own agenda (in this case Caldera/SCO).
4) Eventually find that the partner has taken a (to SuSE's viewpoint) incredulous stand. Publically state that they do not agree.
5) Partnership and sails of other company deflate/dissolve.
SuSE is a somewhat naive company in the way it forms alliance, makes choices, etc. They do not believe in strong spin or overbearing marketing. They do not believe in half-truth statements or downplaying their competitors. There may be exceptions to this (there's no single decisionmaker running the whole show), but as a general rule it holds.
When I was there, it was fairly common for them to observe a sharply competitive move and collectively shake their heads. They _do_ believe in making better products, so this kind of competition is welcomed with open arms, but patent lawsuits are viewed in this sort of way I see as typical german: "This is not good."
All in all, I have to say I saw this as the eventual outcome of United Linux. I see SuSE and Connectiva as technology leaders, with Turbo and SCO/Caldera ultimately hamstrung by the strange politics/business of their leadership. The former can make a solid partnership, no doubt, the latter pair do not belong in the same ship.
-josh
No, no, not *that* kind of piracy. I mean *real* piracy. With ships, and cannon, and lots of a "Avast there"'s in it and stuff.
I think Doug Fairbanks might have something to do with it too, but I'm a little fuzzy on that part, so don't quote me.
Anyway, around the turn of the century, no, not *that* century. Ummmm, no, not that century either. 1700 to 1800. Various "states" in Northern Africa practiced actual piracy, capturing ships, ransoming the men on board or selling them into slavery if no ransom was paid.
Better yet, they could make a lot of money without any risk if they captured a few ships and then used the terror factor to demand *tribute* from other nations. The would be known as a "protection racket" if it were done on a smaller scale.
And it worked. Most of Europe caved in and payed the tribute. ( Not that the pirates didn't make the occasional "mistake" and sieze a lucrative looking prize anyway, but what the hell).
America held out. America had no Navy and no standing army. So they bloody well built them and went to war. In legitimate defense, of the world even (go figure). The modern Marine Corps was born out of this, and when the song mentions Tripoli this is the conflict it refers to.
The conflict lasted four years, but America, young, brash and still idealistic America, on its own, rid the world of these pirates.
Why am I going on about this?
Well, think about it, what is SCO doing right now?
Practicing true computer piracy, that's what. Demanding tribute on a claim that everyone knows is essentially bogus.
What do we do about it?
Well, an American congressman, in reaction to the demand for tribute from the pirates, made a statement that became the rallying cry in the war against the pirates of the Barbary Coast and an American policy for ever after ( well, at least until Reagan).
"Millions for defence. Not one damned penny for tribute."
That's the way to handle SCO. This is not a time to be "pragmatic" as the lawyer and the accountant see pragmatism.
At the very least SCO should be shunned and isolated. Compleat noncooperation throughout the entire industry. Ostracised in the literal sense. Banished to die in the wilderness. Call them Ishmael. SuSE shouldn't pull out of United Linux. SCO should be ejected.
But beyond that they should not be payed one single penny, not even to save millions in legal fees. They are pirates. They are demanding tribute AS pirates. They need to be crushed. Ultimately and completely.
Please. IBM, I implore you. Stay the course. Buy up what remains of their bloody legal corpse for fractions of a penny on the dollar *after* you have crushed them and reduced their value as a company to nil.
But not one damned penny for tribute.
KFG
A big well known network gear manufacturer has decided to rename itself 'CI'.
Its spokesman stated : 'With those #@$à3 guys there over at SCO, we didn't wanted anymore to have this acronym inside our name, so we just removed it'
#include "coucou.h"
...as independent reports confirm. So before you're forced to buy Windows and go to the Dark Side, come on over to the BSD. It's like the Other Light Side Of The Force.
:)
FreeBSD is an excellent choice of operating system. We're happy to share it with any poor Linux refugees such as yourself. I think you've all suffered enough.
(With only a hint of sarcasm.
Um, where was the open source version of Windows that Microsoft had to compete against?
In other news, scientists proclaimed that dinosaurs died because they were no longer adapted to the environment, and then refused to accept that their huge skeletons and the large quantity of other life forms they consumed proved otherwise.
Cue up the banjoes, boys. "The Beverly Hillbillies", if ya please.
o/~ Ooooooo...lemme tell a story 'bout a group called SCO,
they was havin' them some difficulty rakin' in the dough.
They was lookin' at th'marketplace, decidin' what to do
when they saw this li'l penguin an they figgered they would sue....
Big Blue that is. IBM. Deeeep pockets. Moola moooola....
So they filed them a lawsuit a couple billion deep
allegin' Blue had fed that bird through source code feature creep.
Blue an' Penguin shook their heads, an' marvelled at this feat,
sayin' "Not our faults you silly gits ain't able to compete..."
Squeezed by th'market. Billy Gates on one side, Torvaldes on t'other....squisha squish, yeah.
o/~
-- Horse_Pheathers
They just happened to purchase the rights to UNIX somewhere along the line (that somewhere being rather near the end).
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
In a surprise news announcement, the Chairman of rambus announces a historic merger with SCO unix. "The merged company - to be called RAMBO - will be poised to respond to the challenges of the 21st century" Chairman David Boies said today. "We are in the enviable position of controlling both hardware and software Intellectual property" Boies also announced Rambo's decision to sue Microsoft for the use of the name "windows". and it's use for networking. "I came up with the idea of windows networking 30 years ago" Boies said. "When I was a kid I opened the window and yelled to my friends that it was time to play baseball. This involved using a window to spread information to them. In other words, Windows networking"