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Building a Better Motorized Bicycle
toyotaboy writes "Saw this in 'design news' magazine. It's a bicycle using an engine that looks like something pulled off of an R/C airplane. He uses a gear reduction system as well as a overrunning clutch to keep the engine running while stopped. Claims to get 20 mile range from its 1/4 gallon gas tank (80mpg). If you figure most engines like that are 30k rpm with 1:100 gear reduction, and an average bike rim is 26", you should get potentially 1,458,000 inches per hour, or 23mph! He goes on to say that similar devices in electric form (segway) fail because of their heavy 80lb weight and limited 10-15 mile range (and where do you recharge?) This thing can be filled back up at any gas station."
So not only you get to breathe everyone else's exhaust, you get to produce your own via a two-stroke engine directly under your nose? Yucko.
sulli
RTFJ.
You gotta wonder where the vibrations on a two stroke engine mounted inside the bike frame are going to go....
I'm not against it, i'm just saying, certain female population may find riding bickes are enjoyable as the first victorian females did... for prehaps not so obvious reasons.
-malakai
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
But what about the sound - When I'm riding my bike, I don't want to listen to the constant loud, annoying drone of a motor.
Your Silence speaks more than words ever could.
The environmentalists will be the ones having a stroke if this becomes popular. They don't even make 2 stroke lawnmowers anymore.
We have motorized bikes here in England.
They're called 'Motorbikes'. We even have mini versions for teenagers called 'mopeds'. Clever, eh?
So exactly how is this different from a moped? 80 mi/gal for a moped is not that impressive.
--
all the freedom of being rained on without the benefit of exercise!
Are you MORE than your SPINAL COLUMN?
Fat and lazy people will be overjoyed that they do not acually have to push the petals.....
It's a really good idea, but we are still going to run out of fossil fuels eventually (not to mention the pollution problem...
doesn't this just put off the inevitable a little bit more?
(although, I must say I wouldn't mind one... altho I 'm not sure how it would handle with the engine on the front wheel like that)
Some of us are too poor to afford motorized transportation. Eat my Razor-dust, you insensitive clod!
Some may think that a super efficient small engine is a good thing. I argue that point.
Although a small 2-stroke may put out much less greenhouse gas than a car or motorcycle, a 2-stroke engine of any size is very damaging to the air quality. A 2-stroke engine (such as the one on this bike) must burn large amounts of oil, it's simply the way 2-strokes work. Therefore, a lot more soot, and other impurities are blown out the exhaust. This is the smelly blue smoke you always see out the back of scooters, motorboats, chainsaws and other devices with 2-stroke engines.
While this may be a more efficient form of transportation, if everyone who rides a bike road one of these our cities would be far more smoggy and smelly than they are today.
"Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
This guy has basically invented a light-weight moped?
American's despise moped's, they figure if you are going to get a a cycle you might as well get one that looks cool. That is why Harley's are so popular, becuase they look cool. I have a co-worker here that is willing to spend $5,000 dollar's every couple of year's to add accessories and get some improvements done on her bike.
While the idea is neat, it will not take off simply becuase of american culture, and it sounds like a moped.
Can it run uphill? Small internal combustion motors have very slim power bands, and I didn't see anything about gear shifting, nor a torque assist.
Will it last? I'm no mechanical engineer, but spur gears and an overrunning clutch do not sound like overly robust components.
All in all, I wonder if a moped is a better buy.
What about any electtical outlet for the Segway? The thing goes 10-12 miles on $0.10 USD. That bicycle goes 10-12 miles on $0.25 USD.
Have you seen the pollution in growing nations that have cities full of 2 cycle engines on motor scooters? Damn man talk about stinky horrible asthma causing pollution.
How about this one?
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/427.html
This bike is probably a little bit better than some stinky ICE bike. It also has the same range. Go figure.
I know a 50cc 2 stroke engine, which runs forever on on mere tea-spoonfuls of gasoline causes massive pollution. It's because of the release of so much unburned fuel into the environment (25 to 40% according to EPA estimates). Anytime you run a simple engine at such high RPM's you run into this dilemma. I've heard claims that a 2-stroke lawnmower running for 1 hour produces as many pollutatnts, (excluding CO2 of course) as 40 automobiles.
I'm sure this engine is much smaller than that, maybe 8 or 15cc's but still too much pollution for the energy created.
Who will get to 300 first, the MLB pitcher or the state of Texas?
tcd004
It may not have a very high top speed; and needs to recharge overnight; but its very fuel efficent (only needs three full tanks a day) and enviromentally sound (all waste products are completely biosynthesised.)
I fly rc planes... I know about this stuff... The engines that turn 30k rpm are tiny glow fuel powered engines, NOT weedeater gas engines (max of around 10k) Glow fuel runs from $15 to $20 per gallon, not very cost effective! Also, the picture isn't clear enough to really show anything of the engine!
I wonder why the guy runined a great concept by fitting a two-stroke engine?
:-)
Two-strokes not only create more polution but they're also significantly less fuel-efficient than a four-stroke engine of the same power.
I mean, if you're after thrills rather than efficiency then why not just build a scooter like the one on this page?
It seems to escape a lot of people that electrical outlets are far more plentiful than gas stations. Save for those people that work (or live) at a gas station, an electric vehicle doesn't involve any extra stops. Finally, in the amounts that an electric-assist bicycle uses, electricity is basically free (as in beer), which is less and less the case with gasoline.
And for some that actually is powered by something pulled off an R/C plane...
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
If this engine isn't an emissions disaster, and isn't too loud, it may be very cool.
I have an electric power-assist (Currie) kit for my commuter bike. I use it for my 2 mile commute to work, and for running errands in a ~5 mile radius.
It's great- I can pedal hard if I want to, or take it easy and cruise at 17-18 mph if I don't want to sweat (like on my way to work in the summer). I'm not lazy- I run marathons and stuff- but I find that I use the bike more often for errands than I used to, pre-motor.
One of the only drawbacks is that the battery pack is heavy and awkward to haul up to my office to get charged every day. If I could get a kit with a *clean* gas engine, I'd be interested. But I have my doubts about this. For now, I'll stick with the clean electric (yeah, I know there are emissions associated with my bike's electricity consumption, but we're talking about 1 kWh per day).
Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
Two-stroke engines are great contributors to the incredible pollution of places like Dhaka or New Delhi. India is trying to get away from the ill-maintained motor scooters on gas/oil mixtures to hydrogen or, even more practical given the amount of animal manure available there, methanol. Discussion here with insight from a guy working in this problem. Fossil fuels just won't cut it because of the double headed monster of carbon fuel pollution and a multiplier effect of unmaintained equipment burning that same fuel.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
i have a silencer to already take care of those kind of bikes when i see(hear) them out on my fav. mountain bike trails...it mounts nicely on the end of my pistol.
well, as of yesterday i've been using the segway ht for 100 days and over 500 miles. slashdot wouldn't ever dream of releasing that story of course :-]
i wrote about here:
http://www.bookofseg.com/100days/
the bike article says that there aren't places to charge a ebike, there are more outlets than gas stations. and for me, for my commute- i take my ht to work and charge it while i'm at work (it's not needed, but i do charge it since it's just sitting there). i don't see why the goal is to trash electric bikes or things like the segway ht. the article didn't even mention the segway, but slashdot felt the need to. ebikes don't need to be trashed to make his gas bike look better, he could have just talked about the bike, it's cool. i'll actually try his solution out if / when it comes out, looks kinda neat.
cheers,
pt
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/030.000.000/030.0 00.000.asp?lYear=2003&bikesection=8828&range=127&m odel=10594 [URL Giant-bicycles.com]
"You win again Gravity!" -Futurama (Zapp)
1) Hook the R/C motor to a generator
2) Mount it to a Segway
3) Watch Dean Kamen recoil in horror!
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
The hardest part was attaching a #35 go-kart sprocket to the rear cassette of the bike. I had to cut little splines into the sprocket to make it attach properly. Anyway, it worked out great. Top speed of 52 km / h (I could get it faster, but then it's too hard to get going from a stop... only one gear, remember...) And oh man, does it ever attract attention around Burlington. I have been offered two jobs (At machine shops) simply based on the home-built moped. Overall, a great project. I'm now building an offroad go-kart and an on-road trike.
Karma: pi (Mostly due to circular reasoning in posts).
There's all kinds of 2-stroke engines for yard and other uses out there.
s tore/pages/lawnmower-26.html s tore/pages/lawnmower-27.html
Try some links on for size:
http://www.mowdirect.co.uk/acatalog/600i-2_2.htm
http://www.shophutt.co.nz/sites/lawnmower/online_
http://www.shophutt.co.nz/sites/lawnmower/online_
http://www.epinions.com/content_70547902084
In the first three, I reference not one or two, but three different 2-stroke lawnmowers that are in current production and sales. The last link is for a rather popular home and garden tool, the Ryobi Trimmer Plus- a modular system that allows for spin-trimmer, blade edger, pole pruner, tiller and other attachments to the power head, a 2-stroke engine.
Just because there's stricter emissions rules doesn't mean they've gone away. Check your facts next time.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
As far as the Segway v. RC-motor bike debate goes, ask yourself these questions:
1 - Which one would give you the best chance of getting laid?
2 - Which one would give you the best chance of getting a wedgie from your high-school's quarterback?
Modern two smokes run fairly clean. Oil is injected instead of mixed with the fuel in the gas tank. A well designed naturally carburated engine will expell most of the exhaust gasses. Larger 2strokes will use a supercharger to get the same effect. A 4 stroke will still be cleaner then a 2 stroke though. 2 strokes also tend to be louder as you need an unrestricted exhaust.
While two strokes are inefficient, pound for pound a 2stroke engine will be more powerfull then a 4 stroke engine (the common type). A 2 stroke cylinder has a power stroke every revolution of the crankshaft. A 4 stroke only has a power stroke every second revolution.
Grand Prix motorcycle racing until last year was all 2 stroke engines. What used to be the class of 500cc motorcycles is now the MotoGP class which allows 1000cc 4 strokes to compete with 500cc 2 strokes. Dirt bike racing is still dominated by the 2strokes, but that is changeing as manufacturers introduce new 4 strokes. From a racing technology point of few it has only been very recently that a 4 stroke engine has been able to compete with a 2 stroke engine that is half the size.
300 watts is enough for getting around town at 20+ mph. And if you pedal, your combined power is close to Lance Armstrong's- so you should be able to do 30 + mph (if you're aero).
Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
I've been thinking about a "stepper motor" idea for a while, for a simple 21-speed bicycle where the motor *is* the front wheel.
Wow, that sounds like it would have plenty of torque.
a few UPS batteries, or even motorcycle lead-acid batteries
Check this company out for perhaps a better future battery: http://powergenixsystems.com/
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
I can't entirely agree with most of the objections I'm reading. I have ridden my bike a long distance to work, and can see the use for this product. Most days it's nice to glide along quietly smoothly, and environmentally friendily (if friend has an adverb form). After a long exhausting day, going home 3 hours later than normal, in the rain, all I wanted to do was get home. There was no joy in the ride; It was work that I wasn't looking forward to. To be able to get the bike up to speed and spend 25 cents in gas cruising home would have been a significant advantage. One that would inspire me to pedal the bike to work more often as the risk of an arduous ride home would be reduced.
But... If they want to sell me one of these kits they will have to be a little more fact-centric, and a little less like a Microsoft press release.
"With a quarter of a gallon of fuel, he says most bikes will have a driving range of about 20 miles."
Interesting, but what kind of mileage does the bike in the picture actually get? If you have a working prototype tell the story, and if it gets mediocre mileage tell us why, and what will be done to fix it in the version we buy.
"The problem is that it takes about 377 lbs of lead-acid batteries to equal the energy stored in a pound of gasoline"
Um, no it doesn't. At least not on my home planet. It's a shame that selling this item to the public seems to require such an obvious lie. Whatever cool formulas the chemists whip out aside, the forklifts at my client's work place use 350 lb. lead acid battery packs and run on them for 8 hour shifts. There is no forklift on the planet than can perform like they do for eight ours on 16 oz. (yes, I know that gas isn't the exact same weight as water, but it's close enough)) of gas. No way. Ain't happnin'.
"If you had to start the engine and then get on the bike, you wouldn't be able to get your balance," Katsaros says. "This gives users an easy way to get started."
Um, not so much. I started riding a motorcycle back when I had a full head of hair, and I can tell you for a fact I can reliably "start the engine, and then get on the bike." And, more usefully, other bikers and I can start the engine and engage it without duck-walking the bike up to speed so we can "get our balance." The feature of disengaging when the bike is going less than two miles an hour is there to avoid all the low-end gear + clutch crap that is necessary to to get a motorcycle going from a stop and still yield decent efficiency at normal speeds. It's a compensation for the simplicity of the design and a good trade-off in the cost/weight/functionality game. It's not a "feature for the benefit of the inept rider" any more than Code Red was a "security assurance feature for WindowsNT admins."
I sure hope Mr. Katsaros understands that selling a geeky toy means marketing to geeks, who by their nature prefer facts to hyperbole.
lets format this a bit better
... fuel
cell bike similar specs as the gas powered except without the stink. I guess the only problem would be getting the hydrogen for it. Very neat though
>I'm holding out for a Hydrogen powerd rocket bike!!
Not exactly a rocket but
There are active groups dedicated to such vehicles. One such is the power-assist elist on yahoogroups (formerly egroups.com).
/. editors thought this particularly newsworthy.
http://www.power-assist.org/
The list has both ICE and EV partisans.
Most of the commerical and homebrew systems strike me as more clearly thought out than the "headline" design. I don't see why the
They say they get 80 mpg from this at up to 23 mph? Big deal. I consistently get 60 mpg from my 1100cc BMW motorcycle, with two people plus luggage, as long as I don't go over 70 mph or overtake aggressively.
Smaller engined conventional motorcycles (under 250cc) get 100+ mpg.
... turns out to be just that. Taking a small, inexpensive motor and attaching it to a bicycle? It's a basically sound idea. That is after all how Soichiro Honda got started in the motorcycle business after the war. Putting the engine in the rim? Hey, another nifty idea, but not original: the Megola did that in 1922.
Okay, sometimes synthesizing old ideas into new ones can yield interesting results. At least it makes you think "hmmm, neat hack". I don't see this as a fine example of this. All that gearing and mechanical complexity of the clutches and gearset strike me as expensive and failure-prone: too many moving parts for what it sets out to do. It would seem simpler is better.
Then there's the question of intrinsic value. Mopeds and motorcycles are cheap for the utility and performance they provide when you compare them to today's overpriced yuppie-toy bicycles. You can find a used motorcycle for $1200 or so, and mopeds even less than that. Mileage? Well, my CBR900RR gets 55mpg, and I don't have to worry about looking good in Spandex. Pollution? Many have pointed out that even 2-stroke motors can be engineered to be quite 'green', such as Aprilia's direct-injected 2-stroke scooter using technology licensed from Orbital Engine Corp.
So, tell me why this is useful?
Are the emissions worse than a Ford Explorer? If I ride this bike five miles to the suburban mall, and my neighboor takes his Explorer, with no other passengers, to the same mall, who pollutes the environment worse? Is the noise from this worse than that Explorer rumbling down the street?
What I don't get is why every other "new" invention bashes electric by saying "this will tide us over till batteries get better and with gas you can fill up anywhere" I thought the whole point is to get away from gas once in for all. I have a good idea, how about spending a little more time and money on research on electric instead of fiddle farting around with glorified weed-whacker engines so we don't have to wait around. His claims of 85lbs for electric bikes are a bit off. They make NiMH electric conversions in the neighborhood of 20lbs. That's only ten pounds heavier than his "petite" 2 stroke. No gas or oil to mess with, no noise, no fumes, and nothing to have to tune up, just plug the thing in and go. I would also like to know where he rides where there is no electricity? Does he plan on using his bike for the two-hour commute into LA on the 405 during rush hour? Who would be willing to ride on a mountain bike for reasons other than sport far enough to actually run out of juice in the batteries, much less gas for his version. So range isn't really an issue since you could plug the thing in just about anywhere. This is another example of another fine product to "revolutionize" the world, as we know it. What this inventor has yet to figure out is those that are already willing to ride a bicycle to work are already doing so and that within a short period of time get in good enough shape to pedal it their damn selves, and don't need the extra weight and cost to get them up to the top of those theoretical "hills" these inventors always ramble on about as being the big determining factor as to why people don't ride bicycles. Here is a little clue for him, people who are too lazy to even pedal ten miles on a bike are certainly not going to want to even ride the same distance on a powered one. There's no heat & no AC for one, no protection from the elements, no comfortable bucket seat to park their fat ass in, no cd player, and where the hell are they going to plug in their cell phone and where are they going to put their McDonalds value meal #2 at along with all their junk they drag around with them? On top of that he hasn't even figured out the idea has already been done a thousand times, and that no one wants it. Don't take my word for it just look in the back of Popular Science or Popular Mechanics magazine you find half a dozen conversion kits "that if you order now you'll get free shipping". Aside from having no clue I do give this guy bonus points for finally containing everything in the hub instead of the ridiculous bolt on contraptions some people have come up with electric or gas.
Sir Clive Sinclair invented a "bike with an engine" in 1992. First came the Zike, which was an electric bike. Two years after that came the Zeta (check out the Zeta II) which was a electric motor that you could fit on your regular bike, converting it to an electric bike.
Need I say that both were commercial failures? Anyway, the history now repeats itself with SEGway. The difference between the Zike/Zeta and Stephen Katsaros' IC motor driven bike is minimal...
but as always, YMMV
That's the first post I read the acronym actually fits the post
Working for necessity's mother.
Actually, there was a two-wheel-drive bike. I forget who made it now, possibly Honda. It had hydraulic motors on each wheel, and the engine drove a small hydraulic pump directly.
It'll do 35 easily all over Seattle and 40 on flat ground. Faster down hills. Its tank is a little over a gallon and I regularly ride it 95 miles between fillups. It has a wide flat surface down where your feet go that's big enough to put a big sack of groceries or a PC on, which I've done on several occasions (under carefully controlled test conditions, since loads are always supposed to be secured while riding around town, you understand).
It has a centrifugal clutch and no transmission, so its controls are basically the throttle and the front and back brakes, which are on the handlebars much like a bicycle's. The other controls are the ignition switch, turn signals and horn. It has a gas gauge on it, so I consider it feature-rich.
The scooter performs so well and is so incredibly economical and practical that for the first couple months I felt like I had discovered some amazing secret that would solve all of our energy and transportation problems, and that all I'd have to do was tell people about my experience with this marvelous machine and the world would be changed for the better.
Finally I stumbled across some pictures from Thailand or somewhere with an entire family, several suitcases, a dozen chickens, and a milking goat on a scooter putting down a dirt road and then it dawned on me: Yeah, these ultralight scooters are the most economical powered form of transportation that the human race has come up to date, but no one really cares. They want their SUVs and the oil to power them, and if we have to Shock and Awe a quarter of a million kids in baghdad to keep from having to shuttle a sack of groceries or a new NEC 19" monitor home on a scooter the way that millions and millions of people in "third world" countries already do, then that's just the way it'll be.
I really like my scooter though, and if I take it easy on it and don't try to beat the Camaro next to me to the other side of the intersection, it really does get 85 MPG and goes almost 100 miles on, uh, however much it is now, $1.50 or $1.70 or something.
So the bike lane is to blame for you being hit? Or you're to blame? What are you trying to say here?
If you were in the bike lane, and riding responsibly (following the law) I'm inclined to think that the person who hit you was at fault. Stand up for your rights. A bicycle does not belong on the sidewalk, it belongs on the road. If a bicycle lane is provided, all the better. Granted a bicycle could be unsafe on anything faster than, say a 45 MPH road, but otherwise it's perfectly safe and reasonable to ride on the road, as long as you follow the rules of the road. This means obeying stop signs and traffic lights, and stay as far to the right (in the US) as is practical for your own safety. In most states, a cyclist has the right to "take the lane" if he needs to protect his own safety.
Here is a comment I made on a similar story posted here recently.
Like the Segway, this thing doesn't belong on the sidewalk. If it can maintain the same speeds an avid cyclist can maintain (20-30 MPH) I could lve with it in a bike lane. Otherwise, it belongs in the road like any other moped/motercycle.
BTW, as if you couldn't tell, I'm an avid competitive cyclist.
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." -William Blum
the "Spartamet" is very popular amongst older people. It is regarded as extremely uncool to ride one, as only elderly women are seen using them. They are very helpful for them riding against the strong winds that blow in the flat lowlands. check out some info about them from here where some guy gives instructions on how to modify them to get more speed & power (which is always cool)
The Bigger The Headache The Bigger the Pill