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Sun Sued Over H1-B Workers
heli0 writes "The Boston Globe is reporting: 'A lawsuit filed yesterday in California alleges computer giant Sun Microsystems Inc. laid off thousands of American high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.' Could this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?"
One of the suits already got dismissed.
If, on the other hand, Sun looses this one, then bye bye US jobs and hello nice fat contract for Sun India. Which would be even worse.
Hyperom.com
How exactly does this fall under the category "Your Rights Online"?
In walking, just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't wobble.
-- Yun-Men
As long as they are compensated and treated the same as Americans. Humans are not a commodity. H1B's generally come from desperate situations so of course they _will_ work for a lot less than Americans, but that doesn't mean that it's ethical to exploit the desperate situation in which they came from.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I've got a better idea! Let's rehire all the American employees and replace the entire management team with people from India. w00t!
I don't see why they should enjoy the protection import taxes and such bring them against global competition when they have no penalty for exporting jobs. Tax imported goods, tax exported jobs. Don't tax exported jobs, don't tax imported goods. You can't have it both ways.. corporations want protection from countries without labor laws becase they can't compete with sweatshops or massively underpaid workers, but they also want to reap the benefits of those same workers. I don't see why my employers job should be any more protected than mine.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
I don't see this as being so evil. I have always been of the opinion that if someone else (or a machine) can do your job better and cheaper, have fun at the unemployment line. If this is the case, then, sorry for the unemployed, but I doubt they would have taken a pay cut. Hell, they're lucky that Sun took so long to figure out that there are a lot of highly trained Indian coders.
Then again, maybe Sun will regret firing such a huge experience base. That may be.
I will say one thing - I don't hear people complaining about when overpaid middle-management types get canned for a new batch of college grads (from this country). I hope we're not indicating that we're bitter about foreigners taking American jobs? Because that would be a bit silly.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Yes.
It was originally intended to allow employers to fill jobs when they cannot find legal residents to fill them.
To be able to use this, the employer must certify that they not only are unable to find an employee who is a legal resident. They are also supposed to certify that no terminations would happen to the non-H1b employees because of this hire (ie. termination/layoffs shortly after).
Fight Spammers!
I thought one of the contingencies of hiring an H1B worker is that the employer has to prove that they cannot find a worker of equal skill in the US job market. If they US workers have the same skill set but are just more expensive then this is a violation of the H1B processes.
That being said, my wife is currently here on an H1B, and I am fairly sure that there are not many people that can do her job and I believe she is working via an H1B on all legal issues.
Not the lawsuits, but the hiring of H1B's over US Citizens. I work in a small company (no, not the one linked to in my URL) and there are maybe 15 coders in our office.
Three of them are US Citizens. I am one of them.
We will see job postings go up in our break room, and submit the resume's of people we know who need jobs, but the job listings are basically a reprint of the resume of the H1B that the company has selected. So, they have all this extraneous stuff that you wouldn't use in that job, but they are considered "job requirements" and THAT is how they can tell the INS that "We can't find an equally qualified citizen."
I guess it wouldn't be so bad if we didn't work for clients and have to travel on site, and many of our clients will ONLY want US Citizens. So, that leaves the three of us to do ALL of the travelling, even if there has been a personal tragedy in our life. (And one of us has a newborn child, so she's not travelling either...)
I guess I can look at this a few ways. A) My life is a wreck right now because I can't stay home, but B) I have insane job security, something that is a very good thing to have in today's economy.
When I call sun for support over the last few years, it seems that they are more often indian and difficult to understand. I really can't stand having to ask for the same instruction 5 times to be able to understand what they are telling me. I think perhaps this is why an indian speaking support engineer is 75% more likely to email me the procedures they are asking me to perform.
I would hang up and try to get someone who speaks english more clearly if I had the time to do so when the raid array on the oracle server is acting up and I have lots of people pissed off.
My opinion of the (very expensive) support sun offers has taken a turn for the worse because of this. I don't mind speaking to an indian or any other person as long as they speak english clearly when I call the english support line.
So if I go to college, work my ass off, get a degree, and get employed by Sun, continue to work my ass off, I shouldn't complain when I get fired because I was underbidded by quasi-slave labor? And if I complain I'm a racist? And for some reason, because he has more children than I do, he deserves the job more?
This is capitalism at its worst, not its best. In America, we hire Americans. We don't sublet to another country to save money and backstab our own people. At best, this is an atrocious act of business and a slap in the face of ever American. At worst it's an act of slavery and the exploitation of both our countries. I hope Sun gets dragged over hot coals on this one.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
"The H-1B visa allows a professional worker from abroad to be employed by a U.S. employer" with a couple caveats. It requires workers be paid prevailing wages, so it shouldn't be used as a tool to get cheap workers. It's a temporary visa--it's not meant to permanently replace citizen employees.
And most importantly, it's meant to fill positions for which qualified legal workers are not available. If the Rolling Stones want to tour the USA, sure, let 'em in. No one here does quite what they do. However if a company is not only laying off workers and replacing them with folks with H1-Bs, but also not paying them the prevailing wages citizens get, that company is breaking both the spirit an the letter of the law.
In the end this case boils down to who has the better lawyer. Sun has already had similar suits dismissed.
Right now H1B workers are basically indentured servants to the corporations who hire them. Corporations can make them work in tiny cubicles for 80 hours a week and the workers' choice is basically to suck it up or to quit and risk being sent back. The corporations are not upset with this situation.
The reason for getting an H1B is that the worker supposedly has skills that cannot be found in America. In reality, most of the time this skill is the ability to work for meager pay. If we follow the spirit of H1B, the worker is valuable to the US economy because of his special skills, not just to one corporation.
It's time to let H1B recipients have the right to change jobs, demand more pay, and be treated like [american] humans. US workers should not fear this unless they lack skills themselves - all it will do is dry up the pool of conscripted foreigners. US corporations should not fear this, unless they intend to treat H1B workers poorly - good corporations should be able to retain American and H1B employees.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The H1B visa program should be suspended and/or severely limited due to the current state of the economy and unemployment. Any time the local labor is being replaced by foreign labor something illegal must be happening. Sure, if the locals are a bunch of lazy and strike-prone union members, and no other local will cross the picket lines, then hire whoever is available. Otherwise skilled local labor should always be hired first.
What the company does owe is the government of this country. They are under legal obligation to follow certain rules (one of them being to hire a US worker instead of an H1-B worker if a US worker is available for the job) that they agreed to in order to get the benifit of operating thier business in this country.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
Is this illegal?
Yes.
Isn't that sort of the way business has been done for a million years now?
Yes.
It's not like the auto industry hasn't been doing this for years by building plants in other countries to take advantage of their cheap labor.
It's exactly the same thing. Except that now it's white collar jobs that are leaving. A better analogy would be like Ford firing all the factory workers and importing Mexicans to have them work in factories here, but paying them half. They can't do that though. It's illegal. They don't have an h1-b program because anyone can be trained to be an auto worker. So they moved the factories elsewhere. Ultimately, that's what will happen to IT. So it's a losing battle. I plan to get out of IT.
Unfortunately, IT workers don't have a labor union or trade organization to defend us. Doctors are numerous all over the world. Why don't they come here and charge half? Because of the AMA. It's extremely difficult to get your medical training in another country, then come here and practise medicine. IT workers require no licensing, have no organization, and can be trained anywhere. Hindsight is 20/20. It was sort of inevitable.
I have to wonder if the USian labor force isn't partly to blame by pricing themselves out of the market.
This is more like shit happens. IT workers don't set the rates. Wouldn't they make it higher now if they could? The rates are set by the market.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
as found on this [doleta.gov] site. Foreign labor certification programs are generally designed to assure that the admission of foreign workers to work in the United States on a permanent or temporary basis will not adversely affect the job opportunities, wages and working conditions of American workers.
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
You have NOT lived on what these jobs are paying, let alone less than. I've been so poor that if I didn't wake up with a hard-on, I had nothing to play with all day.
People do not have a right to two cars, a huge house, overseas vacations, etc. They do however have a right to a government that looks out for the well-being of their own nation, their own people.
Why the fuck do I pay taxes? It's for services rendered. One of those services is that my government does not sell me and my community out so that one guy can have twenty-two cars, a huge home abroad and a two week vacation here.
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere. If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
You can fuck right off, and take your fucking multinationals with you.
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
1. Sun loses suit...
US companies have to hire us folks; competitive pressures force innovation to stay competitive or they die/merge/go bankrupt...
2. Sun wins suit/has it dismissed...
As more jobs move overseas, domestic markets dry up (who is working? who can buy?). Watching the US market die is not good for a company...will lead to global unemployment...
I have no qualms with new jobs being created overseas (hey, that's capitalism at it's best), but reducing headcount (and hence customers) in your biggest market is not too swift...
My vote: first option for existing jobs and get innovative. The US didn't get this dominant (economically) simply by copying what others do...we figured out how to do it better and new ways to do it (quick nod to Britain and the EC members for various technologies-like radar and jet engines-that we licensed and enhanced)...
And if a company can't innovate, should they be left to die? Maybe...
But one thing that must happen is that company need to focus more on their long-term survival instead of always pushing to improve short-term profits. This is a major driving force behind this exodus, and it will continue to kill many companies until this unhealthy view stops. Profit is essential for a company, but not at the expense of it's future.
How to change focus, you might ask? More R&D but also have management really monitor it; and have marketing do real market analysis, not sales and sales support.
Look back in the pre-80's business and economics textbooks...they had it right and it still is right...
Supreme Granter of Doctor of Obviology Letters ("A FIRM Command of the Obvious")
Howdy,
Most of the comments so far are from the point of view of the displaced worker, but the H1-B program has a lot of pit falls for the foreign nationals who come to the USA.
First, H1-B is a temporary visa. People come here, settle down, buy a home, start a family, become part of the community. But unless they take steps to achieve a more permanent status, such as citizenship or having a green card, they can be kicked out of the country at a moments notice. And with the current political climate, I wouldn't recommend overstaying your visa in the USA right now.
Second, H1-B is sponsored by a company. The worker only has the legal right to work for that company. Don't like your working conditions? Don't think you're getting a fair wage? Fine, then leave your home, family, and friends and leave the country. H1-Bs can't quit a job and look for other work. It's hard not to get settled in and used to a place after a couple years, so there are plenty of stories of people who thought of themselves as permanent residents getting shipped off.
Third, part of the requirements for H1-B is workers get paid prevailing wages. One of the ways companies get around that is bringing in people with little experience. "Sure, the H1-B doesn't get paid as much as the citizen engineer. But one has 1 year experience and the other has 10, so you can't make a direct comparison." But what happens as the years go by as the worker with the visa gets more experienced and worth more in the marketplace? As the disparity between the prevailing rate and the H1-B's salary grows, the company as two choices. They can give the guy a raise. Although if they wanted to do that, they could of kept the original citizen worker that got laid off.
The other option is to ship the guy or gal back to India and replace with a fresh new import. I'm not knocking India, but remember, this worker has spent years in the USA. May be married. May have kids who are citizens. But if that worker is H1-B, and the sponsoring company says buh-bye, then worker is taking a little one-way trip.
Abuses of the H1-B program hurt the native workers here in the USA AND the foreign nationals who come here.
So what is your point? Sun operates in the US, taking advantage of the H1B, because of the security, lack of corruption, good healthcare, etc. They are deriving definite benefits from operating in the US, and clearly it is their first choice over completely moving overseas. In essence Sun is having their cake and eating it too, abusing a system that was created because of the theoretical (and completely unproven lack of talent). Note that I'm not an American, nor do I live in the US, but given the supposed reason that H1Bs exist, one would think that every single H1B technology worker would have long been sent home. Instead companies like Sun keep using it as a bargaining tool to unfairly take advantage of the little guy. Of course this will hurt them as many of us have a real distasteful impression of Sun : I wouldn't touch their products personally.
BTW: Before everyone yaps on about how the US worker had better suck it up and deal with it or they'll relocate to India, let me give you a more realistic scenario - Nothing is stopping the next Sun or Microsoft or Oracle or Intel from sprouting up as a home-grown venture in India, or wherever, given the supposed incredible talent and work ethics. Why haven't they?
Which is exactly why companies that heavily rely on H1Bs are so evil...not only are they depriving our own citizens of jobs, they're also mistreating and exploiting the foreign labor that comes to replace us. They do it because they can. Indians will let themselves be worked 60-70 hours a week for the same salary that the cute white little administrative assistant is getting (hell, probably less) because, well, it beats the alternative which is sitting in a pile of your own filth in India hoping to get a job that pays enough so you can eat.
After world war II, there was a big grassroots movement to buy only American made cars and such. I'd like to see it taken one step further and only buy software, hardware, or services from tech companies that replace thousands of american workers with cheap exploitable foreign labor.
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Sure - we are not "owed" all the luxuries Americans get, I'll agree with that. However, you are missing something: Neither is the corporate CEO. When a company like sun gets rid of American workers that they actually have to pay and hires H1Bs they can get "half-off", where do you think all that extra money goes?
Does it go to help starving babies in africa? no.
Does it go to help starving babies in china? no.
Does it go to help starving babies in the US? no.
Or even:
Does it go to Sun's R&D dept? no.
The money goes into the wallet of the rich men who did it in the first place.
We have hired the government to "promote the general welfare" is how it is worded in the preamble to the constitution. For this service, we pay taxes. The government is supposed to defend the common man from the powerful and greedy. That includes greedy corporate executives willing to remove the big screen tv from your living room and put it in his own.
If you think losing your job to a foreigner with an H1B is nothing to get upset over - try doing it yourself sometime.
Most people in this thread are missing the point. It's not about racism. It's not about losing our jobs to the "damn foreigners". It's about protecting private citizens from corporate greed. That's one of our government's jobs, and they're sucking at it.
It is perhaps a sign of the times that the same principles do not apply when it comes to immigrant workers.
It is astonishing to me that the same people who want free, open markets when it comes to selling American products abroad (including software), want a protected, closed market for employment in US alone. Why this hypocrisy?
For those who argue that every foreign worker who gets a job is taking away an American's job, can I say the same thing about American exports? Everytime a foreigner (individual or company) buys software from America, many jobs are taken away from that country! After all, if the same software had been written in that country, many of them would have been employed!!!
Let us do this - let us stop all immigration and close the borders completely. All jobs will go only to (native-born) Americans. Hooray! However, we should also stop exporting software to other countries so that they can enjoy the same benefits. How about that?
Seriously though, if you want foreign workers to demand a higher pay, abolish H1B visas and other such bureaucracies. Give a green card to anyone who comes to work in America. This way, without the noose of H1 visa, foreign workers will also demand a higher pay as per free market dictates.
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>Would they have a problem with, say, a Canadian citizen, or an Irish, British, or Australian one?
:), can be brought home to an American woman's family without her Archie Bunker father throwing a fit, might even know who Archie Bunker is ...
Australians, Canadians, British, and Irish, are all de-facto Americans (in that order, decreasingly so,) generally with funny but mild accents.
They eat American food, can be understood on the phone by other Americans, bathe daily (well not sure about the Brits, but
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
...here is a good deal of the comment content defending the H1B program that simply skirts reality.
AZspot
H1B if enforced is actually a very good law. But we also need something which gives U.S. employees the same flexibility that H1B gives their employers. That is, if my job is exported overseas, I should have the right to follow that job and have a work visa in the target nation. Nations which export employees to the U.S. should be willing to import employees. The idea exchange which would take place would be benificial to all. You might think Americans wouldn't work in "sweatshop conditions", but working conditions can actually be better overseas. Ask a French employee how much vacation they get or how much notification is required before a layoff. The answer would make most Americans cry. Gross pay is the only benefit where American companies can compete globally, and then only companies in large U.S. cities. Vacation, flexibility, family friendliness, telecommuting and other worker right issues are better in almost every other first and second world nation. True capitalism would allow workers to flow to where they receive the best benefits to match their needs.
I'm posting this in a bit more prominent place because it needs to be read.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=52446&thresh ol d=0&commentsort=0&tid=98&mode=thread&pid=5198618#5 201316
Here are some other comments I have posted in the past, the text I am replying to is in italics:
Firstly, what exactly are they supposed to do about it?
That's the whole point, free trade makes it nearly impossible for governments to set a fair wage for it's workers. It effectively reduces worker's rights to zero. It gives all the power to corporations to shop for the cheapest labor, while keeping the barrier to market entry extremely high for businesses in 3rd world countries. So, the end result is that 3rd world countries are not enjoying the profits from this labor, since they aren't the ones that own the businesses.
Secondly, how do you figure that it's $60,000 worth of work?
How does a price for anything get set? It's a balancing act of supply and demand and competitive pressure. When there is no longer a balance, then certain things end up being grossly undervalued, while others are grossly over-valued. So, for example, with a huge amount of labor, and competition, wages are kept low, and are getting lower. However, on the top end, businesses are consolidating and are giving people less and less options. The end result is that the current system is creating an artificial imbalance, and yes, it is by design.
I once met a fellow (suburban Chicago) who had a lawn cutting business and worked with VMS systems. The lawn cutting business during the season was earning him more money than the computer work. He had 8 or 9 trucks going out and cutting for him.
It's important to dig deeper and ask why this is so. After all, computers and technology have far more money flowing in than lawn care, so doesn't it seem absurd to you that he is making more mowing lawns? You act as if it's a good thing. Where is all that money going? Can you answer that?
Basicly what you are saying is exactly my point, even though it might not be obvious. I've been talking over and over about the devaluation of labor. And, you are backing my point up by showing that someone can make more money by owning their own lawn care business than by working in an industry that is awash in money. The reason is that the money in the tech industry is going to the owners? Why is it going to the owners? Not because they deserve, even if in some cases they do, but the reason it is going to the owner is because competition at the top is small, while at the bottom it is huge. Then there are barriers to entry in this market that are making it difficult for people to make the jump from employee to owner. The end result is a system which rewards those with power, while undervaluing labor. The way to get rid of this imbalance is by fostering competition at the highest levels. You do this by heavily subsidizing and promoting businesses that have less that 5% market share(yes, the 5% is somewhat arbitrary, but it's important to keep it small, but not too small). By promoting competition on the supply side, and among the owners of businesses, they will be forced to compete. This will ultimately increase the number of businesses, which will increase demand for labor, lower prices, and help rebalance competition.
This is my whole problem with free trade. It is effectively removing barriers to entry that third world workers have in the labor market, while at the same time keeping the barriers to entry that third world businesses are faced with in place. It is further tilting the balance of competition in favor of business owners. While they may be able to start their own small businesses, I won't even laugh at the absurdity of what you are saying. Who cares if they get crumbs if they are not given an equal chance to compete in the more lucrative businesses? What you are saying is that they will get some crumbs and that they should be