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Sun Sued Over H1-B Workers
heli0 writes "The Boston Globe is reporting: 'A lawsuit filed yesterday in California alleges computer giant Sun Microsystems Inc. laid off thousands of American high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.' Could this be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back?"
Hey Sun, since you're an American company working mostly with American companies, how about employing some Americans? Sux it down Sun. Have fun with the lawsuit. System.err.print("We're being sued. HELP!!!!")
One of the suits already got dismissed.
If, on the other hand, Sun looses this one, then bye bye US jobs and hello nice fat contract for Sun India. Which would be even worse.
Hyperom.com
Is this illegal? Isn't that sort of the way business has been done for a million years now? (letting go of expensive help and hiring cheaper help) It's not like the auto industry hasn't been doing this for years by building plants in other countries to take advantage of their cheap labor.
I have to wonder if the USian labor force isn't partly to blame by pricing themselves out of the market.
All the best,
--Bob
How exactly does this fall under the category "Your Rights Online"?
In walking, just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't wobble.
-- Yun-Men
As long as they are compensated and treated the same as Americans. Humans are not a commodity. H1B's generally come from desperate situations so of course they _will_ work for a lot less than Americans, but that doesn't mean that it's ethical to exploit the desperate situation in which they came from.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I don't see why they should enjoy the protection import taxes and such bring them against global competition when they have no penalty for exporting jobs. Tax imported goods, tax exported jobs. Don't tax exported jobs, don't tax imported goods. You can't have it both ways.. corporations want protection from countries without labor laws becase they can't compete with sweatshops or massively underpaid workers, but they also want to reap the benefits of those same workers. I don't see why my employers job should be any more protected than mine.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
I don't see this as being so evil. I have always been of the opinion that if someone else (or a machine) can do your job better and cheaper, have fun at the unemployment line. If this is the case, then, sorry for the unemployed, but I doubt they would have taken a pay cut. Hell, they're lucky that Sun took so long to figure out that there are a lot of highly trained Indian coders.
Then again, maybe Sun will regret firing such a huge experience base. That may be.
I will say one thing - I don't hear people complaining about when overpaid middle-management types get canned for a new batch of college grads (from this country). I hope we're not indicating that we're bitter about foreigners taking American jobs? Because that would be a bit silly.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Yes.
It was originally intended to allow employers to fill jobs when they cannot find legal residents to fill them.
To be able to use this, the employer must certify that they not only are unable to find an employee who is a legal resident. They are also supposed to certify that no terminations would happen to the non-H1b employees because of this hire (ie. termination/layoffs shortly after).
Fight Spammers!
That's right. This is the visa category under which a company can sponsor a foreign worker to work in a US based firm. This category is only for "skilled" labor.
The visa is typically valid for three years and renewable for only three more years after that. By that time if you haven't managed to complete your green card (permanent resident card) processing you have to leave the country - though I believe nowadays H1B visas can be extended beyond the usual 6 years in increments of one year provided your green card processing is in an advanced stage. I've been working on an H1B myself for the last 4 years.
I thought one of the contingencies of hiring an H1B worker is that the employer has to prove that they cannot find a worker of equal skill in the US job market. If they US workers have the same skill set but are just more expensive then this is a violation of the H1B processes.
That being said, my wife is currently here on an H1B, and I am fairly sure that there are not many people that can do her job and I believe she is working via an H1B on all legal issues.
Look at it this way, because we have minimum wage laws in America, and there are none in India, the company can hire out engineers, techs, manual labor, or whatever at a cheaper rate than I can legally compete with. I don't have the option to program for $4 an hour. I agree that it helps impoverished people worldwide, but I don't think American corporations should be allowed to treat foreigners any worse than they treat Americans. I think they should be forced to adhere to minimum wage, provide all benefits given to an american counterpart, including health care insurance, and pension. Global competition should be based on merits and qulity of work, not on the lack of labor laws or taking advantage of the financial chaos in still developing countries. Not only will this greatly increase the impoverished areas were work is outsourced, it will prevent American companies from taking advantage of people in need.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
this would be the right time for it.
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
It's about friggin time. Companies that do that sell out our country. Its not bad to hire from overseas, especially if the person is more qualified, but for god sakes, fly them over here, make them citizens, and pay them what they would any American worker, that way at least they are pumping their salaries back into the American economy. Otherwise, keep it in the country. Its a good thing I boycotted Sun a long time ago, I hope they lose the suit, have to pay up, are forced to close down, and then their crappy half assed programming language and crappy OS go with Scott McNealy to live under a card board box that I can kick and piss on while I point and laugh at his mis-fortune. You'll have to excuse my rant, I hate Sun after all... but really, I hope they lose and this makes an example for other companies that are forcing American workers who went to school for jobs like these out of work.
Not the lawsuits, but the hiring of H1B's over US Citizens. I work in a small company (no, not the one linked to in my URL) and there are maybe 15 coders in our office.
Three of them are US Citizens. I am one of them.
We will see job postings go up in our break room, and submit the resume's of people we know who need jobs, but the job listings are basically a reprint of the resume of the H1B that the company has selected. So, they have all this extraneous stuff that you wouldn't use in that job, but they are considered "job requirements" and THAT is how they can tell the INS that "We can't find an equally qualified citizen."
I guess it wouldn't be so bad if we didn't work for clients and have to travel on site, and many of our clients will ONLY want US Citizens. So, that leaves the three of us to do ALL of the travelling, even if there has been a personal tragedy in our life. (And one of us has a newborn child, so she's not travelling either...)
I guess I can look at this a few ways. A) My life is a wreck right now because I can't stay home, but B) I have insane job security, something that is a very good thing to have in today's economy.
When I call sun for support over the last few years, it seems that they are more often indian and difficult to understand. I really can't stand having to ask for the same instruction 5 times to be able to understand what they are telling me. I think perhaps this is why an indian speaking support engineer is 75% more likely to email me the procedures they are asking me to perform.
I would hang up and try to get someone who speaks english more clearly if I had the time to do so when the raid array on the oracle server is acting up and I have lots of people pissed off.
My opinion of the (very expensive) support sun offers has taken a turn for the worse because of this. I don't mind speaking to an indian or any other person as long as they speak english clearly when I call the english support line.
Look, there are people all over the world who would like to come to the US and work. Why should the high tech companies and foreign engineers get special treatment over other businesses and other workers?
I have no problem if foreign engineers get in line with everyone else to get a green card or citizenship in the US. But it's not fair to US engineers to be singled-out for replacement because the high tech industry has bribed the government for special treatment.
So if I go to college, work my ass off, get a degree, and get employed by Sun, continue to work my ass off, I shouldn't complain when I get fired because I was underbidded by quasi-slave labor? And if I complain I'm a racist? And for some reason, because he has more children than I do, he deserves the job more?
This is capitalism at its worst, not its best. In America, we hire Americans. We don't sublet to another country to save money and backstab our own people. At best, this is an atrocious act of business and a slap in the face of ever American. At worst it's an act of slavery and the exploitation of both our countries. I hope Sun gets dragged over hot coals on this one.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
"The two Indian engineers will be able to support many more people and relieve them from poverty whereas the American engineer would probably waste a large part of his money on the unnecessary things in life"
So you're point is that American developers dont have families to provide for. Since we can only put one roof over our children's head we are less worthy than if two could be housed elsewhere?
"If you are not a racist and think that Americans are better than Indians"
Thats not racism it's nationalism (or more derisively jingoism). If the contention was that caucasions were being replaced with Indians then that would be racism.
"If you are either a customer or shareholder of Sun then you should also applaud them: they either make more profit or able to sell at lower prices."
Lowered operating costs dont always translate to lower costs, usually it means higher profit margins. Customer benefit is suspect at best.
m2c,
Justin
That's a little short-sighted.
Why do you think that countries have import laws? To prevent people with lower costs of living and lower wages from doing what you are doing. The relative poverty in India puts the U.S. at a disadvantage if the companies can import products from India cheap. It will destroy the competitive market of the same products in the U.S.
Tariffs and trade agreements are designed to prevent this, as are employment regulations. Breaking these only serves to crush local competition since they cannot reduce their costs signifigantly enough to remain competitive. And if they did, YOUR wages would drop, and you would be put in the same boat as India.
The global villiage does not bring the poorer nations up to our level, it drags the richer nations down to theirs. And it the Greed of the multi-nationals which ensures that this happens.
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
"The H-1B visa allows a professional worker from abroad to be employed by a U.S. employer" with a couple caveats. It requires workers be paid prevailing wages, so it shouldn't be used as a tool to get cheap workers. It's a temporary visa--it's not meant to permanently replace citizen employees.
And most importantly, it's meant to fill positions for which qualified legal workers are not available. If the Rolling Stones want to tour the USA, sure, let 'em in. No one here does quite what they do. However if a company is not only laying off workers and replacing them with folks with H1-Bs, but also not paying them the prevailing wages citizens get, that company is breaking both the spirit an the letter of the law.
In the end this case boils down to who has the better lawyer. Sun has already had similar suits dismissed.
Right now H1B workers are basically indentured servants to the corporations who hire them. Corporations can make them work in tiny cubicles for 80 hours a week and the workers' choice is basically to suck it up or to quit and risk being sent back. The corporations are not upset with this situation.
The reason for getting an H1B is that the worker supposedly has skills that cannot be found in America. In reality, most of the time this skill is the ability to work for meager pay. If we follow the spirit of H1B, the worker is valuable to the US economy because of his special skills, not just to one corporation.
It's time to let H1B recipients have the right to change jobs, demand more pay, and be treated like [american] humans. US workers should not fear this unless they lack skills themselves - all it will do is dry up the pool of conscripted foreigners. US corporations should not fear this, unless they intend to treat H1B workers poorly - good corporations should be able to retain American and H1B employees.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The H1B visa program should be suspended and/or severely limited due to the current state of the economy and unemployment. Any time the local labor is being replaced by foreign labor something illegal must be happening. Sure, if the locals are a bunch of lazy and strike-prone union members, and no other local will cross the picket lines, then hire whoever is available. Otherwise skilled local labor should always be hired first.
I'm not a racist, but there are a lot of Americans out of work. Give them the work. I know for a fact they are working for less money. The H1 is meant is supplant a short fall of US Labor, not replace it. Unfortately the INS does not control the levels of H1 Visas. It is controled by law. The last law upping the limits was enacted a few months before the bust. The economy is in the dumpers and the law is not being repealed. Sun would have been smarter to just offshore the project instead of hiring H1 visa employees. That they can do. Replacing US Citizens with H1 employees is not legal. Of course a change in the job description and wala, a layoff and a rehire at a 35% savings. You are right. I am wasting my salary. On savings incase I get laid off again. Oh yeah, $1100 a month to rent a dump.
It may be good for Sun's shareholders and/or customers, but it's illegal.
Do you even realizing what you are saying? The article is talking about SUN specifically targeting Americans for termination and preferring Indians over other nationalities. How does it make me a racist if I don't applaud that?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If in fact Sun did this activity in a dubious manner, then it would still not apply to the second point, since it fired their employees before seeking new hires.
Plus, to assume that Sun prejudiced themselves based on the info given in the article is very weak. I haven't heard of any ppl getting turned down when they were hiring again. Did nobody apply, or what?
And about Sun not hiring back oild employees, hello! They were chosen as being sub-standard employees! Why would you hire them back?
Bye!
I think the prevailing wage issue is an important point. The department of labor has complicated tables to calculate this. In order to be granted an H1-B, you MUST be paid at least the prevailing wage, else the INS will not grant you the visa. The wages are calculated based on what an equally qualified Americans in your jobs get paid on average, to ensure that foreign workers on H1-Bs are not underpaid.
as found on this [doleta.gov] site. Foreign labor certification programs are generally designed to assure that the admission of foreign workers to work in the United States on a permanent or temporary basis will not adversely affect the job opportunities, wages and working conditions of American workers.
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
H-1B visa are fine and dandy when there is a shortage of workers. However at this time there isn't such a shortage. Unless of course you count wanting to favor a certain group or find the cheapest possible workers.
Now now. I quote from the article to defend my first claim.
citing as evidence statements made this year by Sun's Indian-born cofounder, Vinod Khosla, on the CBS television program ''60 Minutes.'' Khosla was quoted as saying that at Sun, people from India ''are favored over almost anybody else.''
The second is this site www.fuckthatjob.com. Some of those reports are just sad... Companies want everything for as close to nothing - and some want it for free. Work for us for free till you find a job keep your skills sharp.
Of course companies will just move operations totally overseas. They do it to avoid taxes they'll do it to pay a real wage. Of course eventually whatever country they move to will catch up. That or the customers will get tired of asking "Could you repeat that please".
I expect to be moded down for this, but as a white, male American programmer who has also spent several years in India--seeing what goes on on both sides of the world--my experience with programmers in India is that they are smart, highly educated and a lot more of them than there are of us. In short, American programmers have heavy competition from India. Practically speaking there is some computer training institute on every street corner or in every hole in every Indian city with more than 500,000 people.
Programmers from India, on the average, do tend to be better educated than American programmers. Not that there aren't highly educated and skilled American programmers, but there are more from India, though.
If you were an HR person, or an IT manager, and you had to choose between hiring a less-educated American who charges more and a better educated Indian who charges less, you would have to be a socialist (or a nationalist) not to choose the Indian.
In any case, we should stop whining and meet the competition--whether it is from Russia, Poland, India, etc--by ourselves being more competitive than we are right now.
I think it is time our goverment looked at the H-1B situation again. I think SUN is using the system to it's advantage but should realize there are unemployed techies out there who would take 25 to 50 percent less than what they were making a couple of years ago just to have a job.
I don't mind H-1B's when unemployment numbers are low and there aren't many qualified candidiates available. But right now I have a lot of buddies chomping at the bit for any kind of gigs like SUN has right now.
I would be interested to see how many H-1B's are at M$ and IBM since they both have a big presence in India as well.
By the many arms of Vishnu, I swear it is a lie.
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
It is of most vital importance that it be made clear to Joe-six-pack that heavy users of H-1B visas are going out of business during the economic down-turn faster than their rivals who did not rely so much on H-1B visas -- and that the use of H-1B has not been the solution -- it has rather evolved into the problem.
H-1B visa opponents are not savvy politically and therefore have to meet extraordinarily impressive standards of evidence that H-1B visas are destructive -- the standard of evidence they must reach to show their case is vastly in excess of the standards that are applied to convince executives to displace their US employees with H-1B visa programs. All the H-1B advocate has to say is "The H-1B programmers don't cost as much." Those H-1B advocates never have to answer for the destruction wraught on the companies by the H-1B visa employees then hired. They're protected by political favoritism toward those that promote "diversity", "anti-racism", "global markets", etc. The corporations destroyed by executives who are so shallow as to presume H-1B visas will raise profits need to have no excuses handed to them at the last minute.
Seastead this.
Why are so many Americans of the impression that America has a greedy Labor force just because somebody in taiwan will work for beans???
The company is selling the product for the same price, regardless of where the labor is. The only difference here is how much money the American CEOs et al. can squeeze out of their own people. If they can not squeeze enough to buy that extra fleet of jets, fire the Americans and hire elsewhere.
How does one come to blame the Labor force for this level of greed???
Why dont we fire the CEOs and hire some from China? We'd save a lot more money...
I here that people like working for Honda in Ohio assembly plant a lot more than they like working for the Big3...
The United States, quite frankly, has a right to protect its own interests (i.e. American workers having jobs) in cases where companies are hiring workers who will work and live in its own borders. All this about it being justified because third world developers will work for less is a bunch of crap, quite frankly.
.com bust, those people are gradually returning to other lines of work, and I'd say the quality of the average American programmer is actually going up because of this. I can attest after having had to find a new job a year ago (and a tough time doing so even with a CS degree from an accredited U. and 2 years exp.), there are a large number of very qualified American high tech workers available.
Your argument holds if the company is based in some other country, and is told by its government to hire only American workers. Obviously there is no justice there.
I'll say again, the United States government has a right, perhaps even a mandate, to protect American jobs for Americans. After all, if our government is not out to protect the interests of its people, what good is it? The United States government was _founded_ on the very idea that the reason for its existence is to serve the interests of its people. Clearly allowing jobs generated by American companies, on American soil to be given to foreigners when qualified American workers are available would not be protecting the interests of the American people.
I also disagree with your assessment "...the quality of american programmers going down...". Though a number of unqualified American programmers exist after the
Overall, I'd say your post is tainted by your own bias. Consider if the same situation were occurring in your own country. Would you want your government to allow jobs in your country to be filled by low paid foreigners, or would you rather your government protected your interests?
// harborpirate
// Slashbots off the starboard bow!
You have NOT lived on what these jobs are paying, let alone less than. I've been so poor that if I didn't wake up with a hard-on, I had nothing to play with all day.
People do not have a right to two cars, a huge house, overseas vacations, etc. They do however have a right to a government that looks out for the well-being of their own nation, their own people.
Why the fuck do I pay taxes? It's for services rendered. One of those services is that my government does not sell me and my community out so that one guy can have twenty-two cars, a huge home abroad and a two week vacation here.
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere. If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
You can fuck right off, and take your fucking multinationals with you.
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
1. Sun loses suit...
US companies have to hire us folks; competitive pressures force innovation to stay competitive or they die/merge/go bankrupt...
2. Sun wins suit/has it dismissed...
As more jobs move overseas, domestic markets dry up (who is working? who can buy?). Watching the US market die is not good for a company...will lead to global unemployment...
I have no qualms with new jobs being created overseas (hey, that's capitalism at it's best), but reducing headcount (and hence customers) in your biggest market is not too swift...
My vote: first option for existing jobs and get innovative. The US didn't get this dominant (economically) simply by copying what others do...we figured out how to do it better and new ways to do it (quick nod to Britain and the EC members for various technologies-like radar and jet engines-that we licensed and enhanced)...
And if a company can't innovate, should they be left to die? Maybe...
But one thing that must happen is that company need to focus more on their long-term survival instead of always pushing to improve short-term profits. This is a major driving force behind this exodus, and it will continue to kill many companies until this unhealthy view stops. Profit is essential for a company, but not at the expense of it's future.
How to change focus, you might ask? More R&D but also have management really monitor it; and have marketing do real market analysis, not sales and sales support.
Look back in the pre-80's business and economics textbooks...they had it right and it still is right...
Supreme Granter of Doctor of Obviology Letters ("A FIRM Command of the Obvious")
Wrong! When we hired a H1B couple years back (when our company was still in the position to hire :(), we looked high and low for people with the right skills. Oh, we got stacks of applications and the salary advertised was above the market rate. I had had quite a few phone interviews where the job seekers are asking for fat salaries without having the prerequisite skills. One person I interviewed put down NFS and autofs in his resume. When asked how do you mount a NFS partition his answer was that another group does that, he only knows what it is about. This guy was asking for 85K/year, way above the market rate with a skillset way below the requirement. We ended up hiring an Australian with very good experience, great skill sets and superb work ethics for that position for the same amount of money. So, we did not end up getting cheap labour, but a better worker.
It is not the only time I have come across that sort of people. It is hard to get the right people for the right job.
This seems to be more about blatant racism then immigration issues. I mean, the cofounder is Indian and said that sun favors Indians. That's totally illegal under US law. On the other hand, it does make some sense 'protect' H1-B visa holders from being fired, since they would then need to find another job or leave the country, while americans can just go on unemployment for a while.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I worked at Sun a few years back ... and one of the factors
that led to me quitting was when my (Indian) Director kept
promoting Indian co-workers over more-deserving non-Indians.
(Another was being fed up with
an organization that was so focussed on empire building
rather than delivering what customers kept asking for.
But that, and other such reasons, would be offtopic.)
It was clear bias ... these were people
that didn't have a track record of producing results.
They did have a clear record of obstructing other
workers who did produce the results
consistently, on-time, under-budget, and high
quality (low bug-count etc); results that successfully
got the company into some rather big markets.
These were significant promotions (E-12 for
those of you who know what that means), given
to folk with track records of not being innovative,
delivering late, and having big overruns and
buggy results. (Quick quiz: Which approach
is better for the bottom line? Which is better
for empire building?) The managers
in the groups hushed some of the promotions
up for months,
since they were so obviously unfair to other people
who were clearly more deserving.
(But who didn't happen to be Indian, like that Director.)
And yes, I know exactly how the "Indian Contractors" end up being so popular. Part of it is that they can be hired/fired on short notice; another is that they're relatively cheap. And then, big surprise, they have a leg up on becoming full-time ... as opposed to someone
who didn't need a visa, but wasn't already
"part of the team". Then lo and behold, when it
comes time to cut costs, do you think the lower-paid
workers are at the top of the layoff list? Even if the law
about their visa status says they should be???
To be clear: I've had plenty of Indian co-workers I'd work with again. Some of them were a pleasure to work with. But never would I work with that director who had such blatant biases in promotion policy; and never with the people that got such undeserved promotions.
With the Human Resources department backing such actions in at least one part of the company, I can't possibly believe that one of these lawsuits shouldn't eventually succeed.
Think about it in the longer term... if outsourcing to India is effective, there will be more demand for it, and the price of tech labor in India will naturally increase.
There will always be a demand for workers in the U.S. itself; companies always need wokers locally, and will be willing to pay more for them because of the convenience.
Howdy,
Most of the comments so far are from the point of view of the displaced worker, but the H1-B program has a lot of pit falls for the foreign nationals who come to the USA.
First, H1-B is a temporary visa. People come here, settle down, buy a home, start a family, become part of the community. But unless they take steps to achieve a more permanent status, such as citizenship or having a green card, they can be kicked out of the country at a moments notice. And with the current political climate, I wouldn't recommend overstaying your visa in the USA right now.
Second, H1-B is sponsored by a company. The worker only has the legal right to work for that company. Don't like your working conditions? Don't think you're getting a fair wage? Fine, then leave your home, family, and friends and leave the country. H1-Bs can't quit a job and look for other work. It's hard not to get settled in and used to a place after a couple years, so there are plenty of stories of people who thought of themselves as permanent residents getting shipped off.
Third, part of the requirements for H1-B is workers get paid prevailing wages. One of the ways companies get around that is bringing in people with little experience. "Sure, the H1-B doesn't get paid as much as the citizen engineer. But one has 1 year experience and the other has 10, so you can't make a direct comparison." But what happens as the years go by as the worker with the visa gets more experienced and worth more in the marketplace? As the disparity between the prevailing rate and the H1-B's salary grows, the company as two choices. They can give the guy a raise. Although if they wanted to do that, they could of kept the original citizen worker that got laid off.
The other option is to ship the guy or gal back to India and replace with a fresh new import. I'm not knocking India, but remember, this worker has spent years in the USA. May be married. May have kids who are citizens. But if that worker is H1-B, and the sponsoring company says buh-bye, then worker is taking a little one-way trip.
Abuses of the H1-B program hurt the native workers here in the USA AND the foreign nationals who come here.
...suspend the program temporarily, IMHO. There are plenty of unemployed programmers and engineers in this country.
Is the ability to not worry that when you come home, someone is standing there saying "this house and your land is mine" (apart from the bank of course...)
If one person can't take care of him/herself, then how do you expect a small group of people like the government to be able to take care of a much larger group like whiny IT workers?
If people are not personally responsible for themselves, then the government wont be either. That's just how things are.
If Jobs go overseas, then do something else!!! People are always complaining here that the music industry is like the horse and buggy making industry - are you saying the government should lock down those jobs and makes sure the music industry lasts forever just as it is? Those jobs aren't even going to go overseas, they are just going Poof!! At least with the jobs overseas companies still need a US liaison to oversee what is being done.
As for jobs, you said it yourself - you can always go work in a munitions factory. Or join the army and do something that really protects your family instead of whining how your $80k a year IT job might go overseas.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The H-1B fiasco is not the problem, it is a symptom of the problem. This is yet another reason massive immigration reform is needed.
The INS wants to deport Hitesh Tolani, but gave renewed the 9/11 terrorists visas - AFTER 9/11! The whole system is bad and needs to be reformed from the ground up.
Then we can talk about solving this problem.
1. Employer is requred by law to advertise the position, a job already filled by an H1-B holder. These ads are easy to identify, they are very, very specific, and are low-cost small-type ads. They specify US citizenship required.
2. Clueless folks that can't smell these ads send in resumes.
3. Employer is required to document why each and every respondent doesn't qualify.
3a. Some resumes are so far off that an HR drone can check a box and file the resume in a drawer.
3b. Hiring manager (ie, the schmuck knowns as "yours truly") gets to phone interview all the rest. Are you a US citizen? No? Buh-bye. Then a list of very specific questions, all referencing the ad. No recent experience with very specific CAD tool? Buh-bye. Schmuck checks appropriate box, ships stack of paper back to HR.
4. Immigration lawyer completes paperwork.
At my employer, salaries for H1-B were the same as anyone else. Nothing except "what have you done lately?" mattered at salary time. We had a lot of H1-B's, and a lot of open reqs, so no jobs were going to H1-B's that would not have gone to citizens. But of course, times were different then....ie: hot. I'd hate to see the stack of resumes an H1-B ad would pull today.
Which is exactly why companies that heavily rely on H1Bs are so evil...not only are they depriving our own citizens of jobs, they're also mistreating and exploiting the foreign labor that comes to replace us. They do it because they can. Indians will let themselves be worked 60-70 hours a week for the same salary that the cute white little administrative assistant is getting (hell, probably less) because, well, it beats the alternative which is sitting in a pile of your own filth in India hoping to get a job that pays enough so you can eat.
After world war II, there was a big grassroots movement to buy only American made cars and such. I'd like to see it taken one step further and only buy software, hardware, or services from tech companies that replace thousands of american workers with cheap exploitable foreign labor.
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Sure - we are not "owed" all the luxuries Americans get, I'll agree with that. However, you are missing something: Neither is the corporate CEO. When a company like sun gets rid of American workers that they actually have to pay and hires H1Bs they can get "half-off", where do you think all that extra money goes?
Does it go to help starving babies in africa? no.
Does it go to help starving babies in china? no.
Does it go to help starving babies in the US? no.
Or even:
Does it go to Sun's R&D dept? no.
The money goes into the wallet of the rich men who did it in the first place.
We have hired the government to "promote the general welfare" is how it is worded in the preamble to the constitution. For this service, we pay taxes. The government is supposed to defend the common man from the powerful and greedy. That includes greedy corporate executives willing to remove the big screen tv from your living room and put it in his own.
If you think losing your job to a foreigner with an H1B is nothing to get upset over - try doing it yourself sometime.
Most people in this thread are missing the point. It's not about racism. It's not about losing our jobs to the "damn foreigners". It's about protecting private citizens from corporate greed. That's one of our government's jobs, and they're sucking at it.
It is perhaps a sign of the times that the same principles do not apply when it comes to immigrant workers.
It is astonishing to me that the same people who want free, open markets when it comes to selling American products abroad (including software), want a protected, closed market for employment in US alone. Why this hypocrisy?
For those who argue that every foreign worker who gets a job is taking away an American's job, can I say the same thing about American exports? Everytime a foreigner (individual or company) buys software from America, many jobs are taken away from that country! After all, if the same software had been written in that country, many of them would have been employed!!!
Let us do this - let us stop all immigration and close the borders completely. All jobs will go only to (native-born) Americans. Hooray! However, we should also stop exporting software to other countries so that they can enjoy the same benefits. How about that?
Seriously though, if you want foreign workers to demand a higher pay, abolish H1B visas and other such bureaucracies. Give a green card to anyone who comes to work in America. This way, without the noose of H1 visa, foreign workers will also demand a higher pay as per free market dictates.
All your favorite sites in one place!
My fiance was an H1-B worker, so we've had to deal with the INS for awhile now.
Contrary to popular belief, an H1-B visa does not guarantee a green card. These are two different things... H1-B allows you to work in a special field for up to 3 years (with extentions if you're getting your green card), after which you get sent home. A green card can be aquired either through your company, or through marriage. A green card allows you to be hired and fired like any american worker. It's permanent.
I've looked at both methods for getting his green card. We were lucky his second company sponsored him, and we were able to continue it when he was later laid off because he was in the third stage. Had he been in an earlier stage, he would've been sent back.
Getting your green card is a very tough process. It took us three and a half years to get his green card through his company. If you do it through marriage, it's supposedly shorter - but then they question your marriage, your relationship, pull out your wedding photos and ask him to identify a guy in the back row, etc. I'm glad we didn't have to go that route.
Now the REAL problem for Sun here is, if they bring in a significant number of H1-B visa people to replace their tenured staff, then they're going to get a brain drain when in 3 years, all those people have to return to India. There's a population cap for green card applicants based on your country - it's very hard to get a green card if you come from India. So every 3 years they'll have a massive turn-over when all those immigrants go home for the mandated one year, during which they'll bring in new h1-b visas.... costing them lots of lawyer bills and a general loss of accumulated knowledge.
Not a smart move for Sun. Save a buck today, loose important knowledge and spend money on lawyer fees tomorrow...
Tepp
>Would they have a problem with, say, a Canadian citizen, or an Irish, British, or Australian one?
:), can be brought home to an American woman's family without her Archie Bunker father throwing a fit, might even know who Archie Bunker is ...
Australians, Canadians, British, and Irish, are all de-facto Americans (in that order, decreasingly so,) generally with funny but mild accents.
They eat American food, can be understood on the phone by other Americans, bathe daily (well not sure about the Brits, but
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
US Companies aren't supposed to hire H1-B's unless they can't find US talent to fill the position, right? Well, if a company is so desperate to fill a position, I say let them pay a hefty tariff per H1-B employed. Something around 50-100% of the H1-B's salary should be about right. This will do 2 things: It will make certain that a company is really desperate before they hire an H1-B, and it will make them more likely to hire a citizen and train them, the costs would be far less than paying the tariff. Also, it would ensure that H1-B's hired to fill a temporary need don't become permanent workers (they aren't supposed to be permanent anyway, right?).
Good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!
You white collar workers sound amazingly like the blue collar labor of 20 years ago. American workers were losing jobs to Asia and Latin America while many of you were still crapping your diapers. Tech workers have avoided substantive discussion of labor rights anywhere on this board unless it affects you and your skill set.
Why? Because you like to get cheap electronics, automobiles (relatively speaking), and food.
Where were you when Kenworth shipped their jobs to Mexico? Where was the outrage from tech workers when automotive assembly jobs were being shipped overseas?
Face it: Your skills have become a global commodity that can move to regions of lower wages just as easily as the employee working the assembly line. The only way you can preserve your jobs for Americans is to purge yourself Free Trade rhetoric and start signing the song of protectionism.
But that would eventually end up costing you more of your annual income. When you get protection for your profession, other industries will be lining up to get theirs. Pretty soon you are paying $8US for a head of lettuce because you have to pay minimum wage to a US citizen rather than $2/hr to an illegal.
And as has been already been pointed out by other posters, these people need to make a living too. The money they send home improves the standard of living in their own country which stabilizes their society and lessens the possibility that the US will have to intervene with foreign aid, or worse, the military.
When you push on one side of the balloon, the other side starts to bulge.
There are no easy answers to globalized labor.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
"Nothing is stopping the next Sun or Microsoft or Oracle or Intel from sprouting up as a home-grown venture in India, or wherever, given the supposed incredible talent and work ethics. Why haven't they?"
They haven't because the Indian Hindu culture is, in some ways, one of the most disfunctional in the world. When a U.S. company hires a Hindu worker, it usually gets someone who accepts the caste system, for example. The worker generally has a long history of accepting things the way they are and overlooking even major defects. (I spelled the word "disfunctional" because I don't like the original spelling.)
Remember that most heads of technically oriented companies are not technically knowledgeable enough to know whether a programmer is doing a good job. They hire on the basis of price and a little understanding.
What hasn't become apparent to the companies that hire Indian programmers is that they aren't getting the same quality of work as they would from U.S. citizens. Good programming requires someone who constantly asks whether what he or she is doing makes sense. Good programming requires constant creativity.
There are, of course, many Indian programmers who are excellent in every way. But most are the followers that their culture requires them to be.
The result is that programs are being written that will have to be re-written, and much sooner than they would if they were done by programmers from a culture that prizes independent thinking. The real cost of Indian programmers is higher than U.S. programmers, not lower.
The U.S. has been through something like this before. In the early 70's it became fashionable in the U.S. to hire PhDs. The reasoning was that better educated people would be better employees. But, after about 12 or 15 years, companies realized that people who had PhDs were often robotic crank-turners. Sure, some PhDs were interested in education, but most had just put in their time getting an advanced degree. The policy of hiring PhDs brought about some spectacular failures; they often did not have sufficient knowledge outside a narrow field.
We are seeing a wave of self-destruction in the United States. The U.S. government has killed perhaps 3,000,000 people and bombed 14 countries in the last 35 years. (See What should be the Response to Violence?.) United States companies are destroying themselves. (Microsoft is, for example, driving people to Linux by annoying its customers: Windows XP Shows the Direction Microsoft is Going.) The U.S. is becoming a country in which law is disregarded and disrepected. (See Airplanes are safe, but laws often crash.)
...here is a good deal of the comment content defending the H1B program that simply skirts reality.
AZspot
Why does anybody think that stopping immigration of engineers would protect American jobs? I have seen several posts here talk about immigration and outsourcing to other countries as if they are the same thing. They are not.
Immigration keeps the jobs in the US, which ultimately is good for the US engineering industry. Outsourcing overseas sends the jobs elsewhere, which long term is very bad for the US engineering industry.
If the H1-B program was cancelled and not replaced with something else (killing off employment related immigration, since this is the only mechanism there is) what do you think would happen?
Despite all of the screams about record unemployment, EE unemployment really isn't that high. I know, of course, that for any individual there are only two levels of unemployment: there's 0%, which means you have a job, and 100%, which means that you don't. But the current level of EE unemployment is still sufficiently low that most companies struggle to find the right people. Today, both Europe and China outstrip the US in terms of EE graduate and PhD production rates. If US engineering companies were restricted any more in who they could employ in (and bring to, if necessary) the US, their reaction will not be to hire more US engineers. It will be to move whatever centers they need somewhere else. If you really think that "restricting the supply of engineers" (in the words of the IEEE-USA) will make for a stronger US engineering industry and greater levels of employment for US engineers, you are truly deluded.
I have read 100 posts that say that these guys are being paid akin to McDonalds help to program complex systems. At least from where I stand all the H1B's in this part of the Country do just as good as the next guy. (They drive cars and live in Houses/Apartments that no fast food jocky would be able to afford.) I have hired over 40 contractors over the last 4 years (about 1/2 H1B) -- and I can say that price was never a deciding factor....(wages were all pretty much the same -- maybe a dollar or two either way)....The biggest factor I have noticed is that in India they are generally better educated and their schools seem to have more of a focus on quality learning. And you can bet your ass at the age me and you were chasing tails and drinking brew in high school and college -- these guys were studying by candle light to come over here and take your job.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
I have been in H1-B for the past 6 years , There are some gross misconceptions about the H1-B workers .Here are some facts
9 out of 10 Tech companies reject workers who are not either citizens or Green Card holders
H1-B workers coming to united states for the first time(visit) have been reduced drastically, I have not seen anyone to come on H1-B
for the first time to the US over the past 2 years.Many of the H1-B workers who are here are in fact the best and the most experienced and have been here in for quite sometime.
It is extremely diffcult to do green card process for H1-B workers.
Many Big corporations have stopped doing Green Card process for H1-B workers.
Foreign students who are in american univerisities do not get jobs easily .So there is not a lot of H1-B workers coming out of colleges.
A H1-B worker cannot stay more than 6 years in the united states unless his company initiates the Green Card process.
American companies are outsourcing in a big way so in due course of time H1-B will be a relic as there won't be a need to bring foreign workers into United States ..
There is an inaccuracy in that Boston Globe article.
In the article, the author stated that Sun's cofounder, Vinod Khosla, said on 60 Minutes "that at Sun, people from India 'are favored over almost anybody else'." This quote has been taken out of context. The 60 Minutes piece in question was a report on a very prestigious technical college in India, the Indian equivalent of MIT. When Mr. Khosla said certain people were favored, he was referring specifically to graduates of that university, not to Indian people in general. If you read the transcript you will see this. His statement was no different than saying Harvard Law School graduates are favored at law firms.
It's a small but important point.
That's a pretty tenuous argument. With just a little thought, I could come up with a reason why living in and accepting the allegedly dysfunctional Hindu caste system may in fact help programmers. It goes something like this:
People living under the Hindu caste system have to work around a dysfunctional and sometimes arbitrary set of rules and structures that they are unable to remove without drastic consequences. This greatly resembles the Win32 API(or C++ or Java or whatever), and as such, in order to get around the limitations and stupidity of a language/programming construct, it is beneficial to be practiced at getting around the limitations and stupidity of social constructs.
In short, I see no compelling evidence for your point of view (or mine for that matter.) Its all just idle speculation with no basis in fact. If you can offer me actual evidence supporting your claim, then we can talk, but to me, this is mostly I-Really-Wish-It-Was-True reasoning.
"It's Dot Com!"
Is it legal for them to close down a division or department and move it overseas or just lay off people and contract the work overseas?
But it isn't legal to do something effectively equivalent that means some of the cash stays in the country.
irony I said and Rony said "Hi" back
H1B if enforced is actually a very good law. But we also need something which gives U.S. employees the same flexibility that H1B gives their employers. That is, if my job is exported overseas, I should have the right to follow that job and have a work visa in the target nation. Nations which export employees to the U.S. should be willing to import employees. The idea exchange which would take place would be benificial to all. You might think Americans wouldn't work in "sweatshop conditions", but working conditions can actually be better overseas. Ask a French employee how much vacation they get or how much notification is required before a layoff. The answer would make most Americans cry. Gross pay is the only benefit where American companies can compete globally, and then only companies in large U.S. cities. Vacation, flexibility, family friendliness, telecommuting and other worker right issues are better in almost every other first and second world nation. True capitalism would allow workers to flow to where they receive the best benefits to match their needs.
That in itself is a bit frightening.
Allow me to take the point of view of pure self-interest for the moment.
If we want to try to stave off the end of the domestic technology industry in the United States, we need to eliminate H1B's, open our borders, and offer immediate, permanent citizenship to skilled technology workers. No questions asked. Friendly service at the airport. Maybe even throw in some tax incentives. 50% off for the first year! Give us your rich, your skilled, your ambitious. We'll take them all.
Follow along closely.
If a programmer is going to compete with me from India, they are going to be able to charge 10-20% of what I charge and work remotely. This is a simple fact of the currency market and the cost of living. That is what's happening now. In addition, unlike cars or textiles, there is no way to tarrif the product as it crosses a border. Remote work in a foreign country has problems, but none serious enough to offset an 80% discount. Left unchecked, this will simply end the entire technology industry in the 1st world as we know it.
H1B's exacerbate the problem, because they come with a time limit. They are basically a self-help industrial espionage program for every 3rd world country in the world. An H1B says, come to America. Make (let's be honest here) 80-90% of what a citizen makes. Mingle with America's best and brightest, and learn on the job. Then, in four years, take your newfound skills and experience back home, and go back to charging 10-20% of what Americans charge. Welcome to your home country's new middle class.
H1B's have one purpose. To accelerate the destruction of our domestic technology industry. Just natural forces alone weren't quick enough for Microsoft, IBM and Sun. They needed to speed up the process, and H1B's were how they did it.
If we opened our borders now while our quality of life is still high (at least in a few parts of the country), we could use it to brain-drain the 3rd world, to suck the talent out of where it can charge 10% to here, where it will charge 100%. If we did this 10 years ago, we might have staved off the current tech industry disaster - a disaster which at this point I believe is driven almost entirely from overseas outsourcing (understandably everyone is keeping numbers about this process quiet - so we're all speculating on this issue. Nonetheless, I'm very, very confident I'm going to be bourne out on this one as the figures come to light). Even if we did this tomorrow, we might see very gradual improvement in the tech job market here over the next 5-10 years. Long term, though, it's probably already too late to undo the damage.
So make no mistake. H1B's are the most pernicious thing ever contrived against the American technology worker. Ironically, not many have grasped why.
Now all that said, even as someone who is losing their livelihood (I am already headed back to school to change careers), I don't know if it matters. At the end of the day. I respect anyone who improves their lot through learning and hard work - individuals and nations. The economic game being played that makes it easy to exploit labor in the 3rd world is cynical and certainly contrived, but we are all relatively lucky to be allowed to play when you take it in the context of history. I feel a brotherhood with my colleagues in India and elsewhere, and I cannot help myself from being happy at their success. In the end it may all be for the best.
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
I'm posting this in a bit more prominent place because it needs to be read.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=52446&thresh ol d=0&commentsort=0&tid=98&mode=thread&pid=5198618#5 201316
Here are some other comments I have posted in the past, the text I am replying to is in italics:
Firstly, what exactly are they supposed to do about it?
That's the whole point, free trade makes it nearly impossible for governments to set a fair wage for it's workers. It effectively reduces worker's rights to zero. It gives all the power to corporations to shop for the cheapest labor, while keeping the barrier to market entry extremely high for businesses in 3rd world countries. So, the end result is that 3rd world countries are not enjoying the profits from this labor, since they aren't the ones that own the businesses.
Secondly, how do you figure that it's $60,000 worth of work?
How does a price for anything get set? It's a balancing act of supply and demand and competitive pressure. When there is no longer a balance, then certain things end up being grossly undervalued, while others are grossly over-valued. So, for example, with a huge amount of labor, and competition, wages are kept low, and are getting lower. However, on the top end, businesses are consolidating and are giving people less and less options. The end result is that the current system is creating an artificial imbalance, and yes, it is by design.
I once met a fellow (suburban Chicago) who had a lawn cutting business and worked with VMS systems. The lawn cutting business during the season was earning him more money than the computer work. He had 8 or 9 trucks going out and cutting for him.
It's important to dig deeper and ask why this is so. After all, computers and technology have far more money flowing in than lawn care, so doesn't it seem absurd to you that he is making more mowing lawns? You act as if it's a good thing. Where is all that money going? Can you answer that?
Basicly what you are saying is exactly my point, even though it might not be obvious. I've been talking over and over about the devaluation of labor. And, you are backing my point up by showing that someone can make more money by owning their own lawn care business than by working in an industry that is awash in money. The reason is that the money in the tech industry is going to the owners? Why is it going to the owners? Not because they deserve, even if in some cases they do, but the reason it is going to the owner is because competition at the top is small, while at the bottom it is huge. Then there are barriers to entry in this market that are making it difficult for people to make the jump from employee to owner. The end result is a system which rewards those with power, while undervaluing labor. The way to get rid of this imbalance is by fostering competition at the highest levels. You do this by heavily subsidizing and promoting businesses that have less that 5% market share(yes, the 5% is somewhat arbitrary, but it's important to keep it small, but not too small). By promoting competition on the supply side, and among the owners of businesses, they will be forced to compete. This will ultimately increase the number of businesses, which will increase demand for labor, lower prices, and help rebalance competition.
This is my whole problem with free trade. It is effectively removing barriers to entry that third world workers have in the labor market, while at the same time keeping the barriers to entry that third world businesses are faced with in place. It is further tilting the balance of competition in favor of business owners. While they may be able to start their own small businesses, I won't even laugh at the absurdity of what you are saying. Who cares if they get crumbs if they are not given an equal chance to compete in the more lucrative businesses? What you are saying is that they will get some crumbs and that they should be
You're pronouncement cuts both ways. Just because companies can pick and choose between H1B's doesn't mean they won't choose a cheaper H1B resource over an American every time.
If you're putting "I require H1-B sponsorship" on your resume, you might as well print below it:
"I am aware that the visa process poses considerable paperwork and expense, so I'll be grateful for a job, I will work for considerably less than an American can afford to, and I am legally constrained from jumping to another opportunity after you've trained me, unlike those fickle Americans who bail as soon as they decide you're company sucks."
America outlawed indentured servitude with the 13th Amendment. It's time to stop pretending that a worker who can be deported at a moment's notice isn't subject to a coercive employment situation.
A manager at one of our strategy meetings made the comment that there were "Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians..." (indicating that there were too many Team Leaders and not enough people to be led.
Someone at Sun Human Resources might have misunderstood this and started a recruiting drive...
Sun's board and shareholders would do good to fire the management of the company. Sun has never made good revenues from software development efforts and their hardware/OS isn't anything you can't get from IBM or HP at competitive prices.
Their stock is down under 4.00 and headed for the penny stock market.
They gave away the one good software product they have..Java..and the fact that it's become a better product over time is due to the contributions of developers from other companies...the ones that make profits from it.
McNealy's MS bashing is the same failed management defined strategy used by Jobs at Apple in the 80's and Netscape in the 90's. Apple took a big fall after that and we all know where Netscape is. Bashing the competition as a sole marketing strategy for your new product is a sorry excuse for a marketing campaign. I don't doubt that their new 'web services ide' isn't just as much hype as their previous attempts at software product development done without the assistance of engineers from more competent companies and put up for sale.
The fact that multiple former employees are bringing suit is just a PR burn undoubtedly created by bad management decisions. It just shows a complete lack of loyalty between Sun and it's employees and given the debacles at Eron/Worldcom etc it's that's just plain bad PR for the management of the company.
The strength and quality of a company's products is definitely reflected in it's relationship with its employees and requires maintaining loyalty from a company.
Laying people off isn't just bad PR, it shows an incompetent management team that is incapable of marketing and selling products...and obviously too stupid to keep the people that make the products making them. The fact is the management team is unable to get people to produce good quality products that customers need and desire and get those products marketed and sold and that's why they call upon the God Economy and use it as an excuse for their own failure.
The fact is computer systems are used to increase productivity and income so a bad economy should be a better market for computer systems.
Here's the catch, composer777...
The H1-B didn't come about because of lassez-faire, capitalist economics. It came about because of GOVERNMENT REGULATION. The government passed a law which made it possible for companies to hire foreign workers and pay them below market wages. Because H1-B workers can't switch jobs easily, they have no leverage in negotiating salarys. In effect, this is govermnent subsidy that benefits corporations.
I would argue that the solutions is to have the government stop passing regulations and give H1-B workers the freedom to ask for a raise or leave for a better job.
------
www.moneybythenumbers.com
Why is the parent modded up? It is merely spouting thinly veiled racist stereotypes.
I am an Indian (and nominally a Hindu by birth). There is no such thing as a standard "disfunctional Indian Hindu culture" among Indians. It is similar to making the claim that Americans have a "loud, fat, Christian warmongering" culture.
Indians, just like people of all other countries, come with a wide variety of mindsets.
If Indians were merely sheep who followed management/leadership directives blindly, they would lack the initiative to run an advanced space program, independently develop nuclear technology or even remain a democracy for more than 50 years.
The real reason why we're not seeing the next Microsoft or Intel start in India is that most Indians with the talent and initiative choose to start or join Silicon Valley firms, since India lacks a lot of the infrastructure necessary for these kinds of firms to be based in that country.
Give India another 10 years to get its act together in terms of infrastructure and education, and I guarantee you'll see corporations comparable to Intel or Sony start up in India.
Krishna
--- I'd love to go out with you, but I have to study for a Turing test.
So, when do we start inviting Indian managers over?
--- "We've always been at war with Eastasia."