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SCO Threatens Red Hat and SuSE
Guy Smith writes "CRN reports that SCO will target SuSE and Red Hat with lawsuits after they are finished with IBM (providing that IBM allows them live). To quote Sco, "There will be a day of reckoning for Red Hat and SuSE when this is done." They seem bent on destroying the Open Source community and they deserve to hear the community's opinion on the matter."
Ya think? As you may or may not recall, SCO had ties to Microsoft back in the day, when it was called XENIX. So I guess it's still in it's blood to threaten the other operating systems on the block.
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
Santa Cruz sucks anyway.
Someone should remind SCO that their United Linux offering is built on SuSE. Hell, SuSE is United Linux. Everyone else in the group is just along for the ride.
Believe me, all the feedback in the world won't matter to the SCO folks. They want attention. They want everyone up in arms. They want this to hinder the adoption of Linux in business.
Why? They want to be bought. SCO figures that if IBM's linux related sales start to drop (and IBM makes a fair amount of cash on linux related sales) IBM may just buy SCO to shut them up and end the lawsuit. It's pretty slimy on SCO's part. It's downright microsoftish.
I'm not saying don't send SCO feedback. I'm saying that whatever you send won't matter to them. They're not interested in using linux for anything other than making a quick buck and exiting the market. They're like LinuxONE was, just a lot more insidious and poisonous.
Who has a business policy of pissing off your customers by going after your competitors? A day of reckoning? SCO has always been angry with RedHat. And now that SuSE is all about AMD Opteron, they are a threat to SCO in the heavy duty 64-bit space.
samrolken
I keep seeing these stories about SCO wanting to sue people over code in Linux but they never will answer the question of what code they have a problem with. The problem will never get fixed if they won't say what's wrong.
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
Call their bluff. Delay. Befuddle. Use the legal system to drive SCO into the ground in the same way SCI is trying to burn everyone else. The legal system rewards the richest litigant, and that is not SCO. IBM should draw this out until 2010 and let SCO die a slow agonizing death at the hands of their own legal fees.
Ya this indeed looks ugly.
SCO appears to be trying to change their primary source of revenue to be that which they get from lawsuits rather than actually selling services like they used to be doing. I don't know how viable of a business strategy this is, but even if they were to successfully sue every linux company into bankruptcy (hypothetically) they would eventually run out of people to sue and go bankrupt themselves. It's like a virus that feeds on other living cells until it has no more hosts. Once it runs out of hosts, it must itself die.
What if some substantial (either quantity or quality) amount of their proprietary code has made its way into the Linux source? If IBM put it there, should they not be punished for doing so? If RedHat et.al are making/made money from it, shouldn't they pay royalties? I know that SCO is the popular bad guy right now, but what if they have a point, does this still make them bad?
Doesn't Redhat have more money in the bank than SCO's market capitalization?
McBride: In our case, Linux comes from Unix and we own the Unix operating system. How this plays out with other code bases, I don't know.
Okay, now unless minix was based on original Unix source code (which I don't believe it was), then this is entirely false. Linux was based on the API for Unix, but that's about as far as it goes.
Now to say that it might contain some Unix IP these days, that's possible. But to say that it "comes from Unix"?
Who looks like the Iraqi information minister? That's another great one.
--ZS
-- sigs cause cancer.
What on earth do they hope to accomplish? Getting rid of Linux vendors? That's futile, since the source is already available on the net for free. Chunks of cash from Linux vendors? That would be stupid too. If they are awarded a settlement, it would likely result in bankrupting the targeted vendors. But that wouldn't remove them from the marketplace, since the distributions are, once again, already available on the net for free. Do they think that former customers will suddenly come to them? That's arrogant. The hackers would find out through the course of the trials what parts of the Linux kernel, if any, violate patents, and re-implement such that it's no longer in violation. The only thing SCO can hope to do is temporarily dispose of popular Linux vendors and piss off the very demographic that might ever be interested in their product.
it seems like a very viable business strategy...for about 5 seconds...just look at what happened to rambus
Let's see the evidence. If there is no evidence, or the evidence turns out to be bogus, then you can accuse them of trying to destroy OSS and flouridating our precious bodily fluids.
But even if they're right, licensing won't be the answer. The infringing code will have to go, instead. Well, unless the license they have in mind is the GPL, which I kind of doubt. ;-)
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Obviously, they have to be claiming that some of the code within Linux wasn't originally GPLed. Which code is that? Are their complaints legitimate? In other words, can they point out the code that was lifted from them, and then provide documentation to support their claims? If so, then they're actually in the right, whether or not everyone happens to think they're a bunch of goatse's.
OpenBSD going down at the hands of a serious DARPA taint, RedHat (never mind the rest) and IBM getting slaughtered by a vicious left-behind SCO, man ... I just don't know what to think.
...
What other OS'es are there to switch to? I guess OSX is safe, sorta
*sigh* See kiddies, this is why it was sad to see Be die. *sniff*
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
It's just a shell now. The only hope for the situation is for SCO to get bought out by IBM, or go broke before they can collect. If they can squeeze money out of IBM, that will give them the precendent to destroy RedHat and all the others in court.
Please put all predictions of doom on the shelf with the other stupid predictions that are made every day about computers and business.
Is that even if the source code is theirs (which I don't see how it could be), the BUSINESS was never theirs. The popularity that IBM and the likes enjoy was never SCO's nor will it be if they try to eliminate Linux, at least in the not-underground corporate world.
We should consider the possibility that SCO is right, as well. They're undertaking a billion dollar lawsuit against one of the largest technology corporations on the planet. Everyone says they're stupid, but it looks to me like they know something we don't.
I wrote SCO, but I couldn't tell them that they should stop because they're wrong, because we just don't know that. We want them to be wrong, but we really can't say. They should stop because they won't get anything with it except general hatred from a very large part of the IT world. SCO was never popular or "poised" to take the X86 server market. MS stole more "umph" from SCO's strategy than Linux did. Blaming Linux is just a convenient way to explain their company's loss.
OS/390
VM/ESA
z/OS
OS/400
IBM has more industrial strength operating systems in it's portfolio than any other company on the planet. To suggest that the ONLY way for them to make Linux more robust would be to hijack Unix code is so absurd it's beyond ludicrous!!
Jaime Cruz
Buzzing the information Superhighway at Warp speed
System V is the basis for all operating systems outside of Redmond
Huh? What rock has this guy been living under?
OS/360, VM/CMS, MVS, Z/OS, OS/400, OS/2, and several others are all operating systems developed in-house by IBM. Mythical Man Month was written about the OS/360 project IBM had during the 60's. None of these owe any heritage to Redmond or System V. Many of the concepts used in modern operating systems first appeared on "big iron" like IBM mainframes: symetric multiprocessing, NUMA, clusters, failover, fault tolerance, transaction processing, pre-emptive multitasking, virtual memory, journaling, etc.
There are others such as VMS or Mac OS9 that have no connection to System V or Redmond as well. I do think it is safe to say that much of the technology used in modern enterprise operating systems was invented at IBM and first appeared in an IBM mainframe OS.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
No, just portions of it that were added by IBM. In an earlier article i read that SCO thinks the only reason Linux matured so fast is because IBM took AIX code (which is based on code from the origional AT&T UNIX that SCO now owns) and added it to Linux. Meh, wouldn't surprise me either way, but i still see no PROOF that SCO IP is in there. "Probable" is not supposed to be good enough in court.
But they got "their" source code after AT&T sold off the Unix business to Novell in '93 and Novell sold it to SCO in '95.
Even if Redhat and SuSE had any SysV code, so long as they were using the "Available Opensource" prior to date of sale, then SCO needs to go back to the drawing board and actually develop a product worth competing with the rest of the market.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright. Until you hear them speak.
What if SCO is trying to get bought either by IBM _OR_ Micro$oft? If M$ bought them and decided to keep the lawsuits going they could easily go up against IBM (and RedHat and SUSE and ...). M$ would own SCO's IP (including UNIX IP) at that point.
So... Perhaps it would be best of IBM bought SCO to prevent this nightmare scenario. (and of course, this is probably SCO's motivation in making these threats since they know they can't survive on their own).
Of course they will. Will it save them? No. They can eliminate IBM, Red Hat and Susi but free software will remain. The contributions of such companies are considerable but far from required. Microsoft will run out of whores faster than the world will run out of free softare developers and users. IBM is not going to lose either and SCO is going to find that the faster they prosecute this nonsenes the quicker they die.. The demise of such whores only makes working with M$ that less atractive and free software that much better.
It's like watching your buddies in 1970 vintage Soviet tanks getting splattered because they were too afraid of Sadam to run away. You don't need to see much of that before you move onto the bigger better thing.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
But if there is significant proprietary code in open source that the owner did not put some type of open license
Which is exactly what sco themselves does when distributing OpenLinux. Any claim they may have had on any part of the code is uninteresting now since they themselves (as copyrightholders) have distributed the source under GPL (and other lisences).
If they never themselves ditributed linux they might have had the snowball's chance, now they haven't even got that.
- We are the slashdot. Resistance is futile. Prepare to be moderated -
It doesn't matter if it is bankrupt in two years. It is a publicly traded company. The board and management have no interest in it's longevity. They are only interested in the keeping the stock high, negotiating deals that transfers maximum company assets to their pockets, and making sure that their pensions are safe, in that order. Also, by that time, all the well connected investors will have had time to cash out, and losses will be fall to ever abused middle class.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
The only problem is that SCO distributes Linux themselves. Anything they own (which I doubt) in the Linux kernel is now properly GPLed and has been downloaded by thousands. They can point out code till the cows come home. They've already committed a Scientology-style Footbullet.
Is there any real news comming from the IBM case?
What would happen if IBM turned around and backstabbed Linux?
And I'm sure IBM would love to take those same patents and sue the heck out of every Linux vendor. I somehow don't think that IBM would grant the patents out of the goodness of their hearts to the community at large.
I really don't know either. Something about Linux stealing 'unix source code', then about stealing 'libraries source code'. Linux comes from Unix? Since when? Is the idea of a posix operating system IP? It isn't to my knowledge.
I think it's pretty obvious what's going on. SCO is spiraling down, and in an attempt to get some business back, they're trying to portray using Linux as illegal. Unless their lawyers are complete idiots, they realize suing RedHat would result in a) them losing b) RedHat not having any money to give them even if they won.
Actually, Caldera got squat on the settlement. The settlement was with Lineo, pre IPO. IIRC, According to MS's tax records, it was something like 435-460 M paid out (That may include the taxs, etc). Keep in mind, that it was a closed settlement between Lineo-Caldera and MS. From what I understood, the bulk of the money went to Norda.
I have no animosity towards Norda. In fact, I tend to agree with you that Caldera may have done better if ray had been in command. I do not think that I was blaming him.
I do blame the current management there who use to be Ray's staff. They have had this attitude towards Linux of trying to control it at all costs, like Novell did. Now, they are sueing. Great. That is there choice. Perhaps they know something that we do not know. But that will come at a cost of almost certainly being excluded from the Linux world.
I will say that IBM has not been the great code contributer to Linux that Caldera states or implies. Individuals have contributed on projects, but only a few have dealt with Linux, the kernel.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
IIRC, SCO is not going after IBM for patent infringment, since most if not all of AT&T's patents on Unix(tm) have expired.
They are going after IBM since they violated the NDA and/or Trade Secret agreement of the sysV source license.
A cleanroom implementation should not be bothered. The only question is if linux's sysV support is tainted (by IBM or someone else).
Are you paranoid if you know that they just want to know everything you say and do?
"Probable" is not supposed to be good enough in court.
Actually civil cases are decided on "preponderance of the evidence" as opposed to criminal cases which are decided on "reasonable doubt."
So, if this is a civil case then "Probable" is probably good enough.
Not one mention of how IBM has leaked any SCO IP into linux. Not one mention of how any IBM contributions might are SCO derived.
Not one mention of how any particular part of linux is contributed directly (instead of jointly developed with) IBM.
They successfully made PDF copies of the individual IP and Trademark transfers between parties (AT&T, IBM, SCO, etc.).
Hurrah. Real informative.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Get out there boys and girls and show the market that we consider SCO to already be dead. If they lose the lawsuit against IBM, they're dead. If they win it, the open source community can rebuild around another kernel such as *BSD or GNU/Hurd and keep going without SCO. We'll bury them.
Furthermore, if they win the lawsuit, I can picture some licenses appearing that are open/free in every respect but one. They will prohibit use by SCO or on any platform that SCO derives revenue from.
Argh! I'm late to the rant party. I suspect this will never get read by anybody, but here's a thought for you:
Let's say IBM chooses to fight this (this seems to be the plan), and let's say some idiot US judge actually sides with SCO, and let's say SCO looses on appeal. Won't this really end up meaning that all Linux development will happen outside of the states? (a whole slew of it does already.) Think about Alan Cox's "I can't describe this security patch because it's a violation of the DMCA." Think about how open source cryptology was developed when encryption was considered a munition. Remember poor Phil Zimmerman?
I figure if they do win, they'll only be screwing over those of us who live (and program) in the states. Will China care? Especially two years from now when Red Flag Linux has gotten that much better. Will Europe care? (It's not like there is a whole lot of love between the US and Europe these days.) I suspect the rest of the world will shrug their shoulders at the silly Americans and their inane legal system and that will be the end of it.
They seem bent on destroying the Open Source community
Really? Gosh, Novell settled with the BSDs. And SCO bought that settlement with the BSDs when the bought UNIX from Novell.
And this suit doesn't seem to effect Apache, Sendmail, PostgreSQL, MySQL, GNOME, etc la.
Looks like Open Source is fine. Unless you are defining Linux == Open Source out of ignornace or FUD.
Dear Sir or Madam:
I have followed with great interest your company's Linux-related lawsuit against IBM, as well as the more recent announcement indicating that you will pursue lawsuits against RedHat and Suse.
I am frankly astounded that a once-honourable company like SCO would take such a stance against Linux and the Open Source community as a whole. I find it deeply troubling that you feel the need to punish others in a court of law for the development of their own, superior, modern, freely available, Posix-compliant operating system.
Based on my readings of your allegations -- and my experience as a software and computer engineering professional -- it is my opinion that your company will utterly fail in its lawsuit against IBM. Not only will you lose financially, I think that you will lose whatever remains of your respect in the IT profession. Though you may think that this is doing your company a favour (say, by trying to win money in the short term), I feel that it will only come back to damage SCO in the long run.
I believe that the tarnishment already inflicted upon SCO may be irreparable -- one need only follow popular Linux and IT websites (such as www.slashdot.org) to gauge user sentiment in this regard. Unfortunately, I must wish your company the worst of luck in trying to tarnish such an excellent operating system and a trend-setting company like IBM; however, I will happily wish you well when it leaves you looking for a new job.
Regards,
Anonymous
First, the statements by Red Hat (maybe SUSE, too) are the statements prepared by lawyers that cover every possible situation that might have an impact on the value of an investment made in the company. You can be pretty sure there are also statements that "the company may never become profitable," and "key upper management could leave the company," and a whole host of other possibilities. The possibilities are limited only by the imagination of their lawyers. And the statements about IP probably fall into the category of boilerplate material. So, I don't put too much stock in Red Hat's statements about IP liability, even though McBride seems to. By mentioning Red Hat's statements about IP liability, I think he tips his hand a little. And, I definitely get the impression that SCO intends to eventually take on Red Hat, Suse, and any other company that they think they can collect royalties or damages from.
Second, while SCO may not be trying to destroy the Open Source community, there is no question that they feel threatened by Linux. This lawsuit is all about trying to fight that threat using whatever legal means they have. You can see this very clearly if you read the complaint. They mention in the complaint that IBM seeks to destroy the economic value of SCO's Unix IP. They mention that it cost over $1 billion to develop the Unix source code base. And, in the complaint, it's clear that they expect Linux to be the operating system for hobbyists, not servers used by businesses. So, while it may be true that they aren't trying to destroy the Open Source community, it is clear what they want: Run Linux at home where you do your hobby stuff. Or run it in your business and pay a royalty to SCO.
Third, you seem to think that /.ers are unjustified in their anger, at least until all the facts come out in the court proceedings. I will say that I am angry about the current situation, and I believe that with good reason. SCO's business model is failing, for legitimate reasons. Stay still too long, and you lose. The business environment changes. In this particular case, SCO apparently thinks the Unix IP that they own is a cash cow. I would argue that the Unix IP has run its course, and is now near the end of its economic lifetime. Unix was a very successful operating system, from an economic perspective. I'm sure the $1B spent in development has been returned many times over in revenue. But the software industry doesn't stand still. Linux has become a contender. Operating systems are becoming a commodity. Cash cow time is over. So, what offends me, is that SCO would try to stop all the clocks -- freeze time at, let's say, 1999. One thing is perfectly clear: SCO is not trying to compete fairly by introducing innovation or adapting their business model. It is trying to keep an outdated business model alive through litigation. And that disturbs me.
IBM claims we're about to go out of business, but we've never been as strong a company as we are now. If IBM said that last year, when we were on the ropes, well, OK, that would be different. But we expect to continue to grow our source code revenues, and our projected revenues next quarter will double that of what it is now.
Yea you keep telling yourself and your investors that. If you repeat something over and over again it might turn out to be true! Everything considered I hope they first get a brutal beating in court and then get bought out by IBM. I have this really scary picture in my mind seeing M$ getting their grubby little hands on SCO's IP.