EFF's Cindy Cohn Talks About Patriot Act II

digidave writes "Techfocus.org has an interview with EFF's Legal Director Cindy Cohn, where she talks about the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, or 'Patriot Act II'. She talks about what the act is, how it might infringe on your freedoms, where it does right and how ordinary people can make a difference."

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[Anonymous Coward]

Techfocus recently conducted an interview with Cindy Cohn, Legal Director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, focusing on the impending debate and strong possibility of enactment of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, or 'Patriot Act II.'

Cindy Cohn has worked intensively on issues relating to online privacy and security, one notable case being her work on the U.S. v. Sklyarov case, which found Russian programmer Dmitry Sklyarov jailed in the US after speaking on security lapses in Adobe's eBook format. Ultimately cleared of wrongdoing, the programmer and his employer (Elcomsoft) are prime examples of where the EFF and Cohn are making a difference. Other notable work includes Bernstein v. Dept. of Justice, a successful case which tested the legality of encryption exportation - and validated the premise that source code is protected under the First Amendment.

Note: Based on the nature of the interview, we have provided the a reference list for readers, which translates the acronym to the actual name. You can view the list in a smaller pop-up window by clicking here

"Under the current draft of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act (DSEA), the Freedom of Information Act is curtailed, allowing the federal government to restrict more documentation of government activities and actions. What are some examples of situations where having the Freedom of Information Act has helped the public?"

It's hard to know where to begin with this one. I think about it in reverse -- what would happen if we didn't have access to what the government is doing? FOIA creates a default rule of accountability that keeps the otherwise secretive government bureaucracy on its toes. It's impossible to be scientific about it, but I believe the fact that sooner or later a decision made will end up on CBS news, TechFocus or even Slashdot probably prevents more stupid and improper actions than all the regulatory laws and policies put together. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

For specific examples, recently I've heard excerpts from the tapes of Nixon during the Watergate period, which I believe were released after a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. But the best evidence for folks concerned about online issues is the FOIA gallery. David Sobel and his colleagues have done amazing work over the years using FOIA. Just in the past year they've unearthed information about a Transportation Security Administration model for profiling passengers, mistakes in use of both the Carnivore e-mail surveillance system and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and the government's purchase of information about people from Choicepoint (.pdf), the private profiling service. And that's just this year.

Expanded search warrant powers

"As currently written, the DSEA would make it possible for investigators to attain a search warrant usable anywhere within the country, if the subject is allegedly involved in computer 'hacking.' Currently this is limited to violent offenses - what computer hacking events have the current restrictions failed to curtail, and what sort of precedent would this set by equating computer hacking with violent crime?"

View legal reference window

This provision continues one of the most egregious problems in the original USAPA -- the fact that it ranges far beyond issues related to terrorism and instead appears to be just a law-enforcement wish list. There has been no indication that computer trespass played any role in the 9/11 attacks, or any other act of international terrorism. Yet both USAPA and DSEA (which I call USAPA II) continue the relentless march to increase the scope of the law, to increase the penalties and to reduce the checks and balances against misuse of the law.

But to answer your question, I'm not aware of any situations in which the requirement that search warrants under the federal computer trespass statute (called the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or CFAA) be obtained in the same way as all other search warrants has frustrated a law enfo

Patriot this, patriot that

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you don't comply with the Patriot Act, we'll intercept your communication with a Patriot Missile!

Re:Patriot this, patriot that

[ziriyab]

Don't forget, we can force feed you patriot fries, then patriot kiss your mom and use a patriot tickler on your dad.

I still can't figure out

[cxreg]

What Natalie from The Facts of Life has to do with Patriot II

Re:I still can't figure out

[inertia187]

I still can't figure out why Slashdot's American Flag Topic Icon has twelve stripes, and starts with a white one. http://www.usflag.org/

hmmmmm?

[Oldskooldave]

is it gonna be a 3 part trilogy? or are they going to start doing prequals just to make a bit more money?

Re:hmmmmm?

[jpetts]

s it gonna be a 3 part trilogy?

What other types of trilogy do you have?

Re:hmmmmm?

[xyu]

Well, what about a five part trilogy? That's exactly what The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is.

The phone monkies revenge!

[EvilStein]

"If I anger a tech support person at my ISP, that employee can maliciously turn over my personal information to the government and I could very well end up being prevented from getting on an airplane or, worse yet, improperly arrested"

HAH! That will teach people from abusing us poor tech support slaves. Finally. This could put an end to all of the people that call us and scream bloody murder & death threats about us because we explain that printer problems are outside of the ISP's scope of support.

Be nice to us - we could send Motherfuckin' Guido after you! :P

The Most Important part

[core plexus]

Making a difference

"How can everyday citizens make a difference on this issue? Who can they contact, and what are their best options for protecting their privacy?"

Of course they can. In fact, they are the only ones who can. It's through pressure from constituents that folks like Sen. Wyden and Sen. Grassley get the message that they need to stand up to the Administration's excessive proposals and that they will have public support if they do. Put the pressure on and keep it on. And while using our activism engine is useful, don't stop there. Go visit your representatives, talk to them about it. And do the same for members of the Administration when you can.

I posted a few days ago about Getting Involved in the Political Process. This is yet another reason to get involved!

Man Gets 70mpg in Homemade Car-Made from a Mainframe Computer

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act

[Dr Reducto]

In the Declaration of Independence, it says that the only purpose of a legitimate government is to protect the rights of its people. Therefore, the U.S. government is not being "legitimate" right now. Serioulsly though, the biggest terrorists are the ones trying to take are personal liberties away because of some vague threat, some idea of dissent. "To criticize your country is to give a hearty handshake and pat on the back" said one guy whose name I can't remember, but it sure is true.

Singapore

[(X)Paul]

One day we are going to wake up, and wish we were living in Singapore. Slowly we are losing all of the freedoms and rights that make great innovations possible. The Dark Ages are coming ... great thinkers and great innovators cannot function in a society of fear.

With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bush, the closest thing to fascist we've ever had.

Just remember what it was like 3 years ago: Economy was good, we had jobs, the President was brokering peace between Israel and Palestine, and our biggest worry was that the President had consentual sex with his adult intern. Oh my.

Today: Economy is crashing, > 6% unemployment
rate is common in urban areas across the country, we're in a questionable and bloody war for oil, the same people who bolstered Saddam into power are in control today, Israel and Palestine aren't even on the map, the Bush administration is silencing political critics, and the government wants to investigate your private life to make sure you are not a terrorist, headed by Big Brother himself.

So much has been lost in just 3 years.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[wildchild07770]

Sadly as much as a despise our "elected" president the economy isn't truly his fault, it was sliding before he took office and is now simply taking the blame for that.

HOWEVER, he is to blame for getting us involved in a war for oil (which his family's fortune is based on) to ATTEMPT to help the economy and raise his popularity. I think it's sad that he would do something like this to take the attention off the economy but it's been done throughout the history of our country, and for those who actually think that this war is to "help" the people of Iraq. I'd like to point out a little incident in Cambodia where a little known dictator killed nearly 7 million of his own people and was hardly noticed until it was far too late. Why was there no major intrusion to stop these atrocities? Cambodia isn't bordering any allies of ours who would benefit from kicking him out, and there was no MONEY to be gained. This war is about saving face and making gas cheaper.

I don't want to sound antipatriotic, I love my country and on occasion I think we even do a few right things in the global society. But it's getting downright scary to think that we can exert this much force anywhere on the globe and have little worry of political retribution from a foreign power, and that this power is threatening our own freedoms. Every year countless laws are added to the books across the country and yet almost none are repealed. We're slowly putting ourselves into a police state. Much of what the government is now trying to regulate and patrol (information/communication) in the interests of "SECURITY" is only going to put the public in a position of fear of even discussing disentous remarks. It scares me that I see these things happening and yet there's little to be done about it because voters are entirely too apathetic to actually look at the issues and get out and fix these problems.

In short GO AMERICA, get rid of the government

support the free state project http://freestatproject.org

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[Phroggy]

Israel and Palestine aren't even on the map

Uhh. They're not? Haven't several people mentioned them recently? We're gonna make them two separate countries.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[thadeusPawlickiROX]

Not to troll or be annoying here... but I think this is a little far fetched:

" Bush, the closest thing to fascist we've ever had."

If Bush was a "fascist," then you wouldn't have just posted that comment and would be jailed or killed. You still have the right to say that Bush is a fascist or whatever, don't get me wrong. But don't go throwing around terms that don't apply in the situation.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

If Bush was a "fascist," then you wouldn't have just posted that comment and would be jailed or killed.

To quote Ari Fleischer, "People ought to watch what they say."

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[Anonymous Coward]

Excuse me but while I dont approve of Bush, Clinton was responsible of allowing the 9-11 feelings to build up.

Shrub Jr's administration wasnt the one who was catering to Bin Laden when he was in Bosnia serving US interest. Tne Clinton administration was the one that helped prop up (as well as extend the conflict by refusing 4 peace plans) a 'moderate' muslim, one who only a few years before wrote in his book that islam cannot cohabit with any other religion or social structure and how it must be predominant.
It was the one that also allowed an admitted holocaust denier to receive special favours.
(in his book Historical Wastelands, croatian general Tudjman claims that the numbers for the jewish deaths in WW2 was greatly exxagerated and that in the infamous camps in Croatia, which even the SS found revolting, the jews used to abuse and rob their own people and so on. The jewish american lobby might as well have shit on their ancestors for allowing this. Hell, everyone knew about Waldheim too but thats another story.)
The single biggest piece of ethnic cleansing in that region was carried out with close collbaoration with american forces.

And let's forget that Hamas, Al Quaeda were pocket change in 1999 when the US supported what the CIA had called the previous year 'the largest and best trained terrorist group in the world'.

True, daddy Bush had his hands deep in the crapper but Blowjob Bill just kept the same course.

Hell, Im surprised that a dinosaur like Madeleine Halfbright didnt actually stay from the Clinton regime.

v.

I love how americans seem to believe that there is fundamental differences between the two parties.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[ultraslacker]

The quote was 'closest thing to fascist we've ever had.' That's accurate, although I wouldn't say Bush but rather the Bush administration.

Hell yeah this is the closest thing to fascism I've seen in the states. We've got the bellicose nationalism, we've got the centralization of authority, we've got the propaganda, and you better damn better believe we've got erosion of privacy and individual rights. What else do you need? The crude oppression? Don't worry, white bread americans don't have to see that, as that's just for the 'others' - the Iraqis at the moment.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[robson]

Party shmarty, lets just grow up and face it. There isn't any Democrats or Republicans on the national level. Just the Hypocrats.

Really? Would we be occupying Iraq right now if Gore were President? Not bloody likely. If you think Democrats and Republicans are the same, just wait and see the damage Bush & Company do if they win again in 2004.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[Malcontent]

Here is a quote from Benito Mussolini


Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....

here you can read some more of Mussolini's thoughts on fascism including such tidbits as


BTW. More then one person has been rounded up and taken away to concentration camps for reasons you and I know nothing about. Just because Bush has not yet made you disappear for posting here that does not mean he can't or won't. He has killed lots of people in texas, he has "disappeared" hundreds of people in the US. What makes you think you are immune?

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[Malcontent]

In your dreams. It will never happen as long as Bush is afraid of Sharon.

You remember when the israeli tanks rolled into palestine and bush told sharon to pull out? Do you remember what sharon said? He said "israel will pull out if and when it wants to". Do you remember what bush said in response? He said nothing!

You think bush can tell sharon to remove settlements? No way.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[Malcontent]

"Clinton was responsible of allowing the 9-11 feelings to build up."

This of course is pure bullshit. Clinton was actually trying to find a solution to the arab israeli problem. Bush took office and told arabs to fuck off and die (he did the same to the north koreans look it up).

"The single biggest piece of ethnic cleansing in that region was carried out with close collbaoration with american forces."

Why is this news? Who do think gave chemical weapons to saddam? When the UN wanted to condemn saddam reagan blocked the vote!. Who do think funded the taliban? Remember pinochet? remember nicaragua?

US has a long history of supporting and propping up despots.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[fucksl4shd0t]

If Bush was a "fascist," then you wouldn't have just posted that comment and would be jailed or killed. You still have the right to say that Bush is a fascist or whatever, don't get me wrong. But don't go throwing around terms that don't apply in the situation.

Um, how long does it take a man in a democratic republic to establish himself as a fascist dictator? I'd have to say that Bush is doing an excellent job railroading this one in. It's only been 3 years and he's already setup most of the infrastructure he needs.

I get sick of these "If *insert hated politician here* was a *insert hated label here*, then you would already be screwed." Shit takes time. How much time are you willing to give?

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[haggar]

Probably. In some other parts of the world that person would be jailed or even killed, but it wouldn't have been called "troll".

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[freestyle-fiend]

If you think Democrats and Republicans are the same, just wait and see the damage Bush & Company do if they win again in 2004.

Actually, I expect that either party would wreak havoc, if they won in 2004. To believe that there is a substantial difference between the Democrats and the Republicans, I would have to see one of them get elected and fail to cause damage.

I guess the Republicans won't fail to misbehave in office, given what they're doing at the moment. I'm just not sure that the Democrat's would

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[kypper]

Absolutely. Hitler, Stalin, even Chairman Mao all took time to set up what they needed before they closed their fists.

Bravo for pointing that out.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[Malcontent]

"You think communism should work, but people mess it up,"

No I said communism does not work because people are by nature evil. They are selfish, greedy, gluttonous. Communism dictates that people give up their best interest in order to serve a greater good and this will never happem.

Capitalism works because it uses the inherent evilness of people to set up a system. Capitalism is based on the seven deadly sins. Watch one hour of television and you will see enough greed, gluttony, covetousness, pride, lust and the other deadly sins to last a lifetime, and that's just in the commercials. Jesus says that love of money is the root of all evil, capitalism is nothing if not love of money. Find me one religion (other then satanism) that advocates the accumulation of wealth to achieve spriritual growth.

"bush is killing people like castro does in cuba..."

Bush is killing people all over. In afghanistan, in iraq, in yemen, in the phillipines, in pakistan. This president has more blood on his hands in his first two years in office then any since the vietnam war. Bush's bloodlust is still not satiated yet. Unless the economy improves drastically before the next election he will start killing people in iraq or syria next.

Of course Bush is also first president to set up concentration camps outside the US soil. We now have concentration camps in kuwait, afghanistan and cuba where muslims are "interned" including children. Nobody really knows what is going in those places though but it's safe to assume people are being tortured to extract information from them. This president has embraced hitler style concentration camps enthusiastically.

Bush's lust for blood and money is truly disturbing.

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[jcr]

our biggest worry was that the President had consentual sex with his adult intern.

No, the worry was that the president had lied under oath. That's called perjury, and it's a felony. If the asshole had just said "no, I'm not answering that question", he would have been perfectly within his rights to do so. When he decides instead to commit a felony to cover his politcal ass, it's a goddamned shame that he didn't do any time for it.

-jcr

Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect?

[jcr]

To be precise, the closet we've had to fascism in the USA was the Roosevelt administration. There was an unprecented expansion of government usurpation of the economy, coupled with a treasonous attempt to turn the supreme court into a rubber-stamp for anything FDR wanted to do , by simply appointing more justices until he had a majority on the court.

-jcr

questions

[VanillaCoke420]

Who will monitor the monitors?
Who will liberate the liberators?

Re:questions

[creideiki]

I dunno, Coast Guard?

You take a good you take a bad

[dswensen]

Great! I've been wondering what happened to her ever since she stopped playing Natalie on The Facts of Life...

Oh... CINDY Cohn. Well, forget it.

And where is the patriotism?

[yintercept]

Patriotism is an act that people take in loyalty to their government. For example, joining the National Guard is a patriotic act. Dictionary.com gives the definition for patriotism as:

Love of and devotion to one's country.

Patriotism is an attitude of the individual to the country. Patriotism does not come from the government to the people.

The fact that some many things are coming out of the current administration with the label "patriot" is extremely disconcerting. The consistent redefinition of terms is the hallmark of dictatorship.

Regardless of the merits of the act, the fact that it is mislabeled is cause for concern.

The same is true with the mislabeling of 9/11 as "Patriot Day". The day had nothing to do with American patriotism. The people who died in the terrorist bombing were not acting patriotically. They were being acted on.

Just looking at the definition...the closest thing we have to patriotism on 9/11 is that the fanatics who took over the airplanes held the belief that they were killing Americans for their country and for Islam. Ignoring our own feelings and looking at the words we see that the terrorists killing Americans is closer to the true definition of the word "patriot" than the non action of the victims.

Misusing terms is always a grave cause for concern.

I am not dissing true patriotism. We owe our freedom to people who took the patriotic step to defend freedom. In fact, I would say the misusing of the term is an affront to the true patriot. It dillutes the sacrafices made by American patriots.

Re:And where is the patriotism?

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Would-be totalitarian regimes pretty much always redefine "patriotism" as "doing whatever the government tells you to do and singing its praises" -- and its opposite, "treason," as "voicing any opinion contrary to the will of the government." Thus we have the USA-PATRIOT Act, and Fox News (AKA the US Government Ministry of Information) labeling protestors "traitors." This is the first step; the next n-2 steps are to be found in any book on the history of Germany, Russia, or China. Step n involves lots of barbed wire and mass graves.

No, we're not there yet, or I wouldn't be able to say what I'm saying. But in not so many years, we could be, and anyone who thinks I'm overreacting is desperately naive.

Re:And where is the patriotism?

[Temsi]

Exactly. It's sickening to hear government officials calling people traitors and unpatriotic for speaking out in dissent. Labeling those who disagree with the government's policies as unpatriotic and treasonous is in itself extremely unpatriotic and moreover, it's profoundly un-American.
Since this country is a democratic republic, the voice of the people must be heard. That means ALL people, not just those who agree with whatever administration happens to be in power. Expressing ones dissent is not only the most patriotic thing you can do, it is the most American thing you can do. Democracy without dissent, is not a Democracy.

These "patriot acts" are fundamentally un-American, and their proponents should be removed from office.

Re:And where is the patriotism?

[Malcontent]

At first Fox news was labeling democrats with the "hates america". Everytime you turned on Fox there was somebody saying that democrats hate america. Now they have escaltated their fatwah. They are now saying that democrats are traitors. The real problem of course is tha hating america is not a crime but treason is. They are literally advocating that democrats be given the death penalty for treason. The next logical step up is to call democrats terrorist. That way the democrats can be rounded up without even a trial.

Re:And where is the patriotism?

[Anonymous Coward]

True. I think it is important to distinguish between 'Patriot' and 'Nationalist', In my opinion, these are the basic differences:

A nationalist person expects patriotic citizens to
always agree with their nation's government. A free
democratic nation not only allows differing views, but
takes honor in this freedom as a strength.

For a patriot, love of his/her country is like the love of a family member.

A nationalist might claim to love his/her country
primarily because it is 'the best country in the
world'.

A patriot has more of an unconditional love for his
country, even though it is not perfect of the most
powerful or the best. Just as members of a family feel
obligated to help each other, a patriot feels a sense
of responsibility to assist his/her country.

A patriot is proud of his/her country in the sense
that he respects it.
A patriot is devoted to causes greater than
him/herself.

A nationalist identifies with causes as extensions of
him/her self.

A nationalist can be fanatical.

A nationalist views contrary opinions and other
cultures as threats.

There's a lot of b.s. flying around. Things like 'freedom fries' are straight-up 100% nationalist behavior. Bill O'Reilly's boycott of french goods is nationalist. The ebay guy who didn't want to ship to canadians is a nationalist. There were also the Republicans attacking some people for disagreeing with the President. That makes me think of this quote:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." --Theodore Roosevelt

So... while it's their right to have their own opinion, I question the way in which those opinions are being pushed on others, and how people who are clearly nationalists are trying to hide under this red white and blue shield and pose as truely Patriotic citizens.

In contrast to the weeks after 9/11, it makes me sick to see people driving around with little American flags in their windows. (waits for flames)

Re:And where is the patriotism?

[zackbar]

This scares the heck out of me.

I like Bush. I voted for him. I think he's taking us in a bad direction though. I still think we're better off with him than Al Gore or Buchannan however.

Thus, I just became a member of the EFF. (AND I get a free t-shirt, hat, and year long membership to web surfing anonymously!)

Re:And where is the patriotism?

[Bill_Royle]

Zackbar, Thanks for recognizing the hard work the EFF does - they've been an outstanding ally to the community. Your comments and actions make running Techfocus worth it, and provide the evidence and motivation that this type of article does make a difference. I hope that others have done the same! Bill Royle Techfocus.org

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act ( the cynic in me speaking)

[bj8rn]

"It only takes a single grain of sand to move the world" - Mao Zedong

I can't help but begin this post with a cynical remark (sorry, but I've had a bad week...) You don't need masses for a job that one man can do... Lee Harvey Oswald thought he was a patriot, too. And the man who murdered Pim Fortyn (a right-wing populist politician from Netherlands; I don't support that kind of politicians, by the way) said he did it for the sake of the country...

Now, what I really wanted to say was, that Josef Goebbels would be proud of the Bush administration's rhetorics. I mean, calling a law that just invites people to be unpatriotic "The Patriot Act"... Another thing that's just impressive was how in the news today, someone from the Pentagon or US government talked about how the Iraqis may have destroyed all their weapons of mass destruction before the war had begun, and he made it sound as if it had been something unspeakable and unheard of ("how dare they?" was the message)...

Please think about it a bit before modding me down. Then my karma at least served some purpose.

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act

[c0dedude]

Not only that, see:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

amendment 14, section i. It's fairly exact if you ask me. IANAL.

We're Americans: Let's Stand up for our Freedoms

[reporter]

The Patriot Act is one of those pieces of legislation which tests the mettle of being an American or, in general, a Westerner. What makes us different from non-Westerners like the Chinese is that when our basic freedoms are violated, we protest. We support the ACLU. We support Amnesty International. In short, we support basic human rights and civil liberties.

What will become of the USA if we allow the Patriot Act to continue suppressing our freedoms? Think "China" or "Chinese society". The Chinese in Singapore regularly ban "The Economist", a reputable journal. The Chinese will throw you into prison for holding a peaceful demonstration against the government.

Note that the Patriot Act curtails the Freedom of Information Act. What happens when government prevents its own citizens from knowing the activities of the government? Think "Chinese government". The Chinese in Beijing covered up the lethal illness called "Sudden Accute Respiratory Syndrome", and this coverup engendered the proliferation of the SARS epidemic to all corners of the globe. Read "China and SARS". Indeed, the majority of Chinese believe that "maintaining social order [is] more important than democracy". This "maintaining social order" means "restricting freedom of speech, press, and assembly". Read "Poll: Hong Kong residents optimistic".

Both Singapore and the USA are modern societies in terms of technology. Yet, most people prefer to live in the USA, not Singapore, because of the openness and freedom in American society. What distinguishes us Americans from the Chinese is our willingness to support freedom of thought and speech and to support openness in our own government. Otherwise, the USA will degenerate into a nation like Singapore or, worse, China.

One part anti-government + two part paranoia

[MMaestro]

Cause and effect :

The cause part of politics is the way it defines/describes/classifies things so generally. The effect is that people going insane picks out little things in the laws that make them look like the worst thing to happen since the invention of fire and the use of it burning people.

Re:One part anti-government + two part paranoia

[Mordanthanus]

You have to be kidding...

What the hell do you think all the lawyers for any major corporation are going to do... They will nitpick the shit out of every word to bend it to their will.

Re:One part anti-government + two part paranoia

[MMaestro]

No, I'm not shitting you because not everyone is as brilliant or as prone to swear as you. Not everyone is as intelligent or open minded as Slashdot readers. Don't be so quick to lash out over less intelligent people, otherwise we'd all be living in caves still trying to invent fire and the wheel.

Freedom?

[Dot.Com.CEO]

Do you know what fascism is?

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....

Read more here.

If you live in the US, please think about how your government tramples on every idea of freedom, peace and democracy and then adds insult to injury by trying to convince you that, indeed you enjoy the freedom to say and do whatever you want.

A democratic regime would never have its president utter the words "with us or against us".

Re:Freedom?

[wakebrdr]

You are correct in that the government tramples on the idea of freedom and then tries to convince us that we are free ("With Libery and Justice for All" ??? Please).

But to suggest that a democratic regime would do differently is false. Republicans and Democrats are just 2 power-hungry groups who pick and choose different freedoms they want to protect, then proceed to trample on the rest. It is only the Libertarians who are true defenders of freedom.

Re:Freedom?

[Dot.Com.CEO]

I used democratic in the basic sense. I did not mean that if your president was a Democrat things would be different. Actually, as a European, I find the American two-party system laughable. There are no real basic differences between the Republican and the Democrats. It is all marketing. "We are progressive". "We protect values". "We are pro-life". "We are pro-choice". Offend no one, offer no solutions.

The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[Samir Gupta]

As someone born in India, educated in the US, and now working in Japan, I have extremely mixed views of the US. As someone who spent years in America as a student and a researcher, I am truly thankful for the opportunity that I had to be a part of the world's leader in science and technology, an environment that welcomes the world's best and contribute what I could to its intellectual and economic prowess.

Now, 20 years later, I probably would not have done the same were I in those shoes again. Such acts like the Patriot Act, detainings of people -- many times US Citizens themselves -- on the basis of race, under no basis for charge, new onerous immigration restrictions that make even getting a tourist visa about as easy as winning the lottery if one is unlucky enough to be from a country that's not western European, and other such hypocritical erosions of the consitution have turned me off.

Japan is not perfect, mind you. Its people still have a air of racial superiority about them left from their imperialist warmongering days, and discrimination in employment and all aspects of society is too often blatant for me and other people with too dark of a skin color. But even they don't think of us as criminals without a cause, which is what the US is doing. And I feel free to go about my work without fear that the police may be scrutinizing my every move, trying to "prove" my association with terrorist groups.

In short, I fear that Bush and Rumsfeld have done irreparable damage to the United States' image as a bastion of democracy and freedom in the world. Prior to the crackdowns on people in the US under the veil of 9/11, the erosion of the Consitution, and the invasion of Iraq, the United States held both the military power and the moral authority to enforce its opinions, a right it earned through decades of generally magnanimous acts in support of these causes around the world. Today, all this work has been laid to waste because of the shortsighted policies of George Bush and his advisors. The world views the United States, rightly so in my opinion, as hypocrites. It will take a long time (and most likely a new administration) to change that view for the better.

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[Mike the Mac Geek]

Be careful what you post. The last thing we need is Nintendo classified as a terrorsit organization. I agree. The US has lost it's shine, so to speak. The current regime here is responsible for the tranish. It'll take a lot of elbow grease to make the US bright again.

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[Mike the Mac Geek]

Bold tag, provided by idiot posting. Kids, don't be like Mike, use "Preview"!

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[praksys]

But even they don't think of us as criminals without a cause, which is what the US is doing.

Do you think this would still be true if the 9/11 attacks had happened in Tokyo instead of New York and Washington? The US was never as perfect as you remember, nor as admired or respected, and now it is not as bad as you suppose.

People forget that the rest of the world said exactly the same sort of thing about Reagan (and worse) that people are now saying about Bush. They said he was an idiot, and a warmonger, and plenty of other things besides - until after communism was defeated.

People forget that although the constitution is now more than two hundred years old, most of the constitional rights that are now under threat are no more than a few decades old (being the results of relatively recent Supreme Court rulings).

People also forget that the US is in fact facing a deadly threat, and that there is no garantee that it will survive this war against terrorism.

I think that is probably one of the most serious problems with this war. With terrorism there are no massing armies on the border, and no enemies that bang their shoes on podiums in the UN and promise to burry us. It is all too easy to forget that the threat is there. But we have three thousand dead American civillians to remind us - more than in any war since the Civil War - and if terrorism becomes nuclear then those thousands will become millions. The US government has realised that there is no way to defend against nuclear terrorism, except to stamp out terrorism before it gets that far. If they fail in this task then the US will cease to exist along with most of what we now call civilisation.

In the face of such a threat desperate measures are required, and the tuth is that even if Ashcroft got every power he is asking for, US civil rights would still be in better shape than they were in the 1960's or even in the 1970's.

How this administration is judged in the long term will depend entirely on the results they achieve. If they democratize the middle east, as they claim they intend to, then the reputation of the US will not suffer any harm. In the meantime the US should expect no more respect or admiration from the rest of the world than it got during the cold war - i.e. none at all.

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[Cyberdyne]

Such acts like the Patriot Act, detainings of people -- many times US Citizens themselves -- on the basis of race, under no basis for charge,

Uh, that was in WWII... (Yes, there's a US citizen or two in Guantanamo. Bear in mind how they got there...) The US has done far, far worse things of this sort in the fairly recent past than is happening now!

new onerous immigration restrictions that make even getting a tourist visa about as easy as winning the lottery if one is unlucky enough to be from a country that's not western European, and other such hypocritical erosions of the consitution have turned me off.

Do you mean the DS-157 check? If so, remember that only applies to the Middle East plus Malaysia, according to visalaw.com's list. Even then, only to men of certain ages, and it's little more than a database search...

As for "erosions of the constitution", which amendment grants foreigners the right to come and go freely, regardless of background, intent or criminal involvement?!

But even they don't think of us as criminals without a cause, which is what the US is doing.

"us"? Japanese citizens are free to enter the US just by filling out a visa waiver. If you retained Indian citizenship, you need to get a B-2 or B-1 from a consulate (not hard), then for the next 10 years you can do the same. How exactly does the US government treat you "as criminals"?

(Incidentally, the only two visa problems friends of mine have had were with India and the UK: a British citizen of Indian ancestry was studying in India, but couldn't renew his visa, and an American friend couldn't get a suitable visa at all for the UK.)

I very strongly disagree with everything you say about "erosion of the Constitution", and as for "crackdowns on people in the US", there's definitely some crack involved somewhere...

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[TheTimoo]

and it's little more than a database search...
Having gone through this (got a Jordanian Passport):
"little more" is not what I'd call it. I'm not sure if it was called a "DS-157", but it took about 45 min telling the officer about everything that was on the Visa application form already, telling him what my plans in the US were, and having a picture and my fingerprints taken.(great so now they know everything about me, very relaxing) Then after 4 weeks I had to report back to the INS in Minniapolis,MN. That was the nearest office but still a five hour drive. And all that for asking me questions again and proving that I was staying where I had said I was and doing what I had said I was. I can somehow understand that actions, though I don't like them, but "little more than a database search" is not what that is.
But I guess that's what you meant by "..." *g*

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[smugfunt]

People also forget that the US is in fact facing a deadly threat, and that there is no garantee that it will survive this war against terrorism.

They don't forget, they just don't believe it. However, I think you may be correct. The current administration represents the greatest genuine threat America has ever had to face.

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[Cyberdyne]

and it's little more than a database search...

Having gone through this (got a Jordanian Passport):
"little more" is not what I'd call it. I'm not sure if it was called a "DS-157", but it took about 45 min telling the officer about everything that was on the Visa application form already, telling him what my plans in the US were, and having a picture and my fingerprints taken.

That bit's standard; a friend of mine (from Romania) had a similar interview for her visa to visit the UK as a tourist. AFAICT, the UK has always done this; I imagine the US has too.

(great so now they know everything about me, very relaxing)

If you want to enter the US without the US knowing about you, you have to sneak in while nobody's looking. This usually gets you into a US prison, which is probably not what you wanted ;-)

Then after 4 weeks I had to report back to the INS in Minniapolis,MN. That was the nearest office but still a five hour drive. And all that for asking me questions again and proving that I was staying where I had said I was and doing what I had said I was. I can somehow understand that actions, though I don't like them, but "little more than a database search" is not what that is.
But I guess that's what you meant by "..." *g*

OK, so you were interviewed, then they checked you were doing what you said. What's the big deal? (OK, the five hour drive to get to an INS office is a pain, but hardly the end of the world!)

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[praksys]

They don't forget, they just don't believe it.

I think that is right. For years - a decade or more - there were a bunch of anti-terrorism types (like these ones) warning about the possibility of terrorist attacks on a huge scale. No one really took the threat seriously - and that was understandable - because such attacks had never actually happened. Now they have happened.

For years the same guys have been warning about the possbility of nuclear terrorism. We know for a fact that Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and they are one small revolution away from being run by terrorists. We know that North Korea has nuclear weapons, and they are already run by terrorists. And those are just the cases where we have no doubt. There are a number of other countries where nuclear weapons programs probably exist. Even worse we can predict with near certainty, thanks to the march of scientific progress, that nuclear weapons will continue to become cheaper and easier to acquire.

So do you think that we should all wait until after a few million people are killed before acting this time?

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[Carlos Laviola]

Dear Mr Gupta,

I thought you worked at Sega?

How's your Smell-o-vision (also here) project going?

Your educational background is pretty impressive too.

What about Super Marx Brothers?

Finally, how's the Gameboy Advance Porn Industry going?

Anyway, good luck at your job.

(Thanks to Klaruz and cascino)
this)

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Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[abirdman]

People also forget that the US is in fact facing a deadly threat, and that there is no garantee that it will survive this war against terrorism.

Does anyone actually believe this pap? Do you think there are endless teams of suicide hijackers at the beck and call of evil Arabic masterminds, who will keep blowing themselves up on our doorsteps until we finally just collapse and adopt a Muslim state? This is exactly the type of FUD that is being used to promote Patriot II, the "shadow government", Guantanamo, and just about any other acts, laws, and curtailments of rights the administration can come up with. It's comic book thinking. It's like those evil masterminds that Captain America had to fight. Even the comic book super villains didn't send their best and most effective soldiers only on suicide missions.

September 11 was a brilliantly executed attack carried out by a team of incredibly disciplined and effective goons with a death wish (maybe not all of them, but the leaders knew they would die). The attack was on a target of some symbolic importance, though not of any strategic value. The loss of life was atrocious, but that's all that happened. Please let's not let out elected officials forget it. I don't hold my representatives responsible. I don't think they need to dismantle our freedoms in order to protect me against what will likely not happen again in our generation. And to honor the victims, I suggest everyone hold out a hand of peace and generosity to someone.

If someone wanted to bring down democracy and America (which I love and want very much to survive), the best way to effect that would be to convince it to dismantle itself. Our present administration may just be feckless enough and paternalistic enough to attempt that. I'm trying to imagine the difference between an oppressive, fascistic police state run by a fundamentalist Muslim and an oppressive, fascistic police state run by a fundamentalist Christian. I guess in the latter case I would be more likely to be able to pronounce the names of the bad guys.

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[Mordanthanus]

Very well said... I can't think of anything to add. Someone please mod this up.

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[praksys]

Do you think there are endless teams of suicide hijackers...

Yeah. Close to endless. Have you seen any signs of the Palestinians running short of suicide bombers? The only real personel limit involved in this kind of tactic is the need for people who can fly a plane in level flight - which is not a particularly difficult skill to master.

Add nuclear or biological weapons to the mix, and you do not even have that limit.

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[abirdman]

Check the news. I think they are running short, because there aren't nearly as many of them as there were six months ago. The Palestinian suicide bombers are mostly adolescents or young adults acting in ones or twos, on the ground, locally. Even Yassir Arafat condemns them.

It takes a mature team of highly trained and motivated adults to take over a plane and then fly it into some building, and that isn't easy to put together. Those miserable kids in Palestine (and Israel) just don't have the skill, discipline, or training required to pull off a September 11th attack. Of course, they don't get to try again and again until they're good at it--quite often they've been the only victims. It's horrible, and incredibly sad, how they've been manipulated by their teachers, religious leaders, and other adults who should be guiding them. And of course it's horrible about the victims, but I just can't see it as enough motivation to create a police state in the US, or to take away your freedom and privacy (and mine).

Your point about nuclear and bio weapons is well taken. They're scary. But I'm still thinking it's a bit of a canard. If we haven't found them in Iraq, I'm tempted to think the next most likely place to find them will be in the remote hideout of Dr. Doom. I hope I'm right.

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[cosmosis]

People forget that although the constitution is now more than two hundred years old, most of the constitional rights that are now under threat are no more than a few decades old (being the results of relatively recent Supreme Court rulings).

Excuse me. What planet have you been sleeping on? Since 1995 and especially since 9/11, more the half of the Bill of Rights has been eroded. The first ammedment has been under constant attack - DMCA, right of association = suspicion. Third Ammendment and the overturning of the Posse Cumatatus Act. The Fourth Ammednment is completely gone. It started to dissappear under the drug war, and completely dissappeared under the US PATRIOT Act. The 5th, 6th and 7th ammendments, right to a speedy trial, writ of habeus corpus, secret arrests, camp x-ray, indefinite detentions, lack of attorney-client confidentiality. And the 10th ammendment where federal law continues to usurp state ammendments.

Planet P Blog

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[praksys]

more the half of the Bill of Rights has been eroded

Sure. Read some law. You will notice that the courts have changed their minds quite often about the extent and nature of the rights protected by the Bill of Rights. Now if you want to claim that our rights have been eroded in some abstract or moral sense then that is another topic, but if you think that we have fewer rights now, as recognised by the courts, than we did say 40 years ago, then you will have to do a little better.

Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals...

[praksys]

Check the news. I think they are running short, because there aren't nearly as many of them as there were six months ago.

There are not as many as six months ago because the Israeli's are all over them with tanks. Like us the Israeli's found that the only way to stop terrorists from comming to you, is to take the war to them.

It takes a mature team of highly trained and motivated adults to take over a plane and then fly it into some building,

Motivated perhaps, but not highly trained. Take a look at the guys who actually carried out the attack. They were surprisingly average. Not especially smart, and not much experience. Guys like that are not at all hard to find in countries like Egypt or Saudi Arabia.

I hope I'm right.

Some of us would prefer a better strategy than "hoping for the best".

Public law 107-56

[Anonymous Coward]

is the "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT ACT)"

It has nothing to do with patriotism. It just makes it much easier for LEA's to get around Constitutional limitations on things like searches, wire taps, midnight disappeances and other nasty things that kept the US from being a police state.

Re:Public law 107-56

[White_Lightning]

If the USA PATRIOT Act is an acronym, is it proper to make another acronym from it, like Cindy Cohn does (USAPA or USAPA 2)?

Taking a stand

[g00z]

*RANT*

It's pretty simple, actually. All this talk of writting your congressmen, protests -- it's all worthless folks.

What WILL make a diffrence is this:

1) Next chance you get, vote all of these clowns out of office. And for those you can't vote out of office since they are appointed (Ashcroft), vote against those that appointed them.

2) Stop spending money! Since politicions that make and pass laws like these are bought and paid for by corporations for the corporations interests, the best way to nip it in the bud is to stop feeding the machine. Since this war has started, I haven't driven my car. Why? Because I haven't bought any GODAMN GAS.

Flame on.

Re:Taking a stand

[evilviper]

1) Bush is toast!

2) I understand the sentiment, but my 100 mile commute to/from work would be much more... interesting... on a bicycle. :-)

Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to get off reliance on oil is to take cars straight to electric/solar. Car/Oil companies just won't allow alcohol or some other fuel. That's why they want to fein support for fuel cells, which are several years off.

Looking at the electric cars that were made is quite a clear indication. First, the fact that they pulled the cars as soon as the government gave them an extention on lowering emissions. The second, as any engineer can tell you, is that they could have gotten FAR better performance out of electric cars if they had used higher voltages. (if anyone is interested in building one, I'd be happy to offer my services)

Re:Taking a stand

[Mitchell Mebane]

1) Next chance you get, vote all of these clowns out of office. And for those you can't vote out of office since they are appointed (Ashcroft), vote against those that appointed them.

The problem here is that, with our current political system, we can never vote the clowns out of office, unless we choose to vote nobody in, and that can't happen. Sure, maybe Gore would've been a better president than Bush. In some ways. But in other ways, he would've been worse. The point is, unless we get a candidate who isn't a clown, we'll never have a chance to vote the clowns out.

Now, _I_, personally, would like to see RMS as president. That would be interesting. ;)

Re:Taking a stand

[Mitchell Mebane]

Dammit, I forgot the opening tag. :P

Re:We're Americans: Let's Stand up for our Freedom

[BWJones]

The Patriot Act expires in 2005.

Chill out.

My god.

Not if Orrin Hatch gets his way. This head of the Senate Judiciary committee wants to make the Patriot Act permanent. Besides, even if it were temporary, it is still in violation of the Constitution. Don't let the concept of temporary abrogation of your rights fool you. This is a big deal.

Flame on! Flame off! The flamer...

[RLiegh]

Ok, that's all fine and well, and I support your ideas until...

Where do you buy your food? Who raises the meat and vegetables that you eat? How much of that money goes right into the machine (corporations and poltical corporations).

Hell, for that matter, do you pay for electricity and an ISP? Thank you--your local politican thanks you for the 'donation' (ie-taxes)

Re:Flame on! Flame off! The flamer...

[Malcontent]

Your argument seems to be "you have to spend money so you might as well not even pay attention how you spend your money".

You can buy locally grown food. Every town has a farmers market go there instead of the supermarket. Support your local farmer or rancher.

Also you can always buy less. SPend less money, make things instead of buying them, keep using the things you already have, fix the broken items instead of throwing them away, do without luxuries, don't drive as much, buy second hand stuff.

If you do all that you will save more money, you will be in better health from all that biking and walking and you will sleep with a better conscience.

If you live outside the US never ever buy american products. Surely there are competing products made by people in your own country.

Re:We're Americans: Let's Stand up for our Freedom

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Hatch officially retracted his move to enshrine the Pat-riot act. But you can bet that fucker is scheming for another chance at it.

Communism (in theory) is a fairly good economic

[glrotate]

No, communism in theory is faulty. Marx misunderstood such basic economic concepts as profit maximization, value, and growth. It was a bad theory and therefore it failed. Good theories are sucessful at explaining and predicting. Communism was unable to do this and cannot be considered good theory.

Re:Communism (in theory) is a fairly good economic

[adamruck]

I disagree.. communism would be an execellent system, if it wasn't for one thing, human nature. The natural desire to do less work and have more money is the downfall of communism. So instead of communism we have capitilism, which exploits human nature.

Re:Communism (in theory) is a fairly good economic

[happyhippy]

I dunno, PURE communism would probably work. Unfortunately factors such as human greed and need for power and control bought down its downfall.
And its these same factors that are affecting the capitalist model too. How many more corporate scandels, restricting of consumer rights and laws will it take until capitalism becomes 'fauly'?

Wasnt the Federation in Star trek a communistic state? If so, you see how communism can work, if you make everyone on earth equal and provide everything for them for free. But that aint going to happen any time soon. Unfortunately.

Re:Communism (in theory) is a fairly good economic

[praksys]

I disagree.. communism would be an execellent system, if it wasn't for one thing, human nature.

This nicely sums up exactly why communists turned out to be such evil sob's. Political systems are supposed to be fit for humans, not the other way around.

So instead of communism we have capitilism, which exploits human nature.

Better to have a system that suits human nature than a system that attempts to crush humanity into its own deformed shape.

Re:Communism (in theory) is a fairly good economic

[Malcontent]

Communism failed because it presumes that humans are inherently good. That is a false premise.

Capitalism works because it presumes humans are inherently greedy and selfish (evil). It works because this premise is true.

Re:Communism (in theory) is a fairly good economic

[jcr]

Communism failed because it presumes that humans are inherently good.

You are so full of shit, the whites of your eyes are a solid brown.

Communism failed because it is nothing more than a thinly-veiled medievalism, with the king and lords replaced with a collection of party sycophants of various levels. It is evil, plain and simple, because it presumes that it's OK to run roughshod over MY liberty to make me pay for YOUR upkeep.

If you like communism, you can just fuck off and die. Make any move towards imposing it on me, and you will recieve a richly-deserved, privately funded bullet between the eyes.

-jcr

Re:Communism (in theory) is a fairly good economic

[dinkum_thinkum]

In essence what you're saying is that communism would work if only it weren't constrained by reality. This is ridiculous. LOTS of things would work if they didnt have to work IN REALITY. Communism, by it's nature, ignores reality and, as such, it is worthless as a theory. Every theory must be supported by facts.

When was the last time you gave to the EFF?

[GuNgA-DiN]

I donated another $20 today. There was a great victory in the RIAA vs. Streamcast and Grokster. Legal fights like this cost money. Please donate whatever you can to the EFF! They are the only thing standing between us and ultra-greedy mega-corps!

Re:When was the last time you gave to the EFF?

[anonicon]

I'm a member of the EFF, $100+ level if it means anything (love that hat!).

Still, the EFF can't do it alone. I'm glad you donated, but have you moved towards making a political difference in your area by calling your reps or making appointments with them on a consistent basis? It's easier than writing or e-mail, it makes a bigger impression, and (from my experience) there's something about it that encourages follow-up on your part since you invested the energy in the first place.

It's also much easier than organizing a protest, it allows you to do it repeatedly (unlike voting), and when it comes time for elections, I can ensure you that you will know what what your Reps have and haven't done.

Give it a try. It's legal social engineering at its best. :-)

Chuck

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act ( the cynic in me speaking)

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Apparently Pim Fortuyn's politics were widely mischaracterized in most media after his asassination. You may find there was a lot more to like about the guy than most people outside of the Netherlends was led to believe.

Meanwhile, this whole WMD was so clearly a pretense to start with that I can't help but laugh as the administration squirms. But as a friend of mine said recently, we will find WMD in Iraq - even if we have to fly them in ourselves. Makes you wonder why they even bother to let it drag out for so long. Maybe there is still a modicum of honor in the current administration (still haven't finished reprogramming Powell, perhaps) that they can't quite get the gumption up to start planting the evidence. Either that or things are still too disorganized over there to pull it off without getting caught in the act.

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act

[CrazyDuke]

Personally, I like this one:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -Theodore Roosevelt

To the knee-jerk dumbasses: He's a Republican, not a 'crat.

Re:America.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a spelling error. Aparently, it's supposed to be:

Land of The Fee.

BINGO

[jabber01]

Which is exactly why the Second Amendment is critical. It allows We The People to enforce the First Amendment, and the rest as well.

Re:BINGO

[iggymanz]

small arms are no longer sufficient to protect a free society from the ravages of a first world government turned on its own citizens, should that ever happen. Hmmmm, I wonder what the founding fathers would have said about this?

Re:BINGO

[Malcontent]

Ask the palestenians how well those small arms are working to lift the israeli occupation.

Small arms are no longer effective in preventing opression. Time to open up that chemistry or biology book and hope it's more effective then 45 cal bullets at stopping those tanks from rolling into your town.

Re:BINGO

[fucksl4shd0t]

Small arms are no longer effective in preventing opression. Time to open up that chemistry or biology book and hope it's more effective then 45 cal bullets at stopping those tanks from rolling into your town.

Is the Anarchist's Cookbook still available? Or has it finally been swept away by the government? If it's still available, I recommend stockpiling it and other books like it. Useful information in there...

Re:BINGO

[Malcontent]

Easy enough to find on google. I looked at it briefly and I didn't see anything that would stop a tank or an airplane. Unless there are recipes there for mustard gas or sarin or other agents then it probably won't help much.

It occurs to me now though that the military will probably be able to defend against simple chemical attacks if they know it's coming. Maybe biological agents or those that would poison food and water supplies might be better.

Re:BINGO

[wakebrdr]

This may be what you believe in order to rationalize your defeatist attitude. But just as there were people in this country willing to stand up to the British 250 years ago, there will be people willing to stand up to an overly oppressive should it become necessary in the future. Such as the author of the BINGO post I suspect.

Re:BINGO

[iggymanz]

defeatist attitude? hardly, just said small arms not sufficient given technology a first world government can muster (whether their technology level could stay high is another question). Effective "fighting" might not involve weapons at all

Re:BINGO

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

So you (a group of, let's say 50 americans) are going to defeat the american army, police force, civil service etc ?

And somehow you find this reasonable and necessary ?

Get real

Re:BINGO

[dogfart]

Many dictatorships have fallen in the last 30 years. Chile, Argentina, the whole of Eastern Europe, Russia, Marcos in the Philipines, fascist governments in Spain and Portugal. In NO case where these brought about by "armed citizens". Economic decay, mass popular protests, and the defection of the armed forces were more importnatn factors. Primary though were the organizational skills of democratic forces.

Gene Sharp has written a well researched study of the issue. His conclusions about the effectiveness of armed rebellion?

victims have sometimes organized to fight the brutal dictators with whatever violent and military capacity they could muster, despite the odds being against them. These people have often fought bravely, at great cost in suffering and lives. Their accomplishments have sometimes been remarkable, but they rarely have won freedom.

The ability to skillfully organize on a mass scale allowed the democratic opposition in all these countries to overthrow dictatorships - not the marksmanship skills of firearms afficionados.

Re:BINGO

[jabber01]

Having lived in Eastern Europe around the time the USSR began to implode, I'll tell you in no uncertain terms, if we'd had guns, it would have fallen much, much sooner than it did.

The ability to organize is one thing, the means to do something once organized, something else entirely.

Yes, peaceful things can be done by the organized, but teeth and claws help. Without these, it takes generations.

Look at Iraq.

30 years of Hussein, ended in three weeks of armed conflict.

Americans have never, not since the Civil War, had to actually fight for their very survival. Sure, peaceful protest looks perfectly viable from an over-stuffed arm-chair. But, when peaceful resistance means that maybe your children, or maybe your children's children, will achieve what you're trying to bring about, you'd trade your life for the chance to see change within your own lifetime.

Remeber also that it took armed conflict, not peaceful resistance, to create the United States in the first place.

No sane person, and no large group of people, chooses to resort to violence. By the time one is at a point where one is willing to take up arms against an oppressor, reason, logic, civilization really, have all failed.

Having the right to the means of fighting the system built into the very definition of the system is a stroke of brilliance in the way America works.

Re:BINGO

[jabber01]

Step up and get your shackles then?

Oh wait, we have credit cards. We don't need chains. ;)

Sums it up like only the EFF can

[Syncdata]

It's hard to know where to begin with this one. I think about it in reverse -- what would happen if we didn't have access to what the government is doing?
Right on sir. All too often we look at government in the wrong direction. The constitution does not "grant us" anything, it is used to restrict the governments domain. Similarly, the FOIA does grant the citizen anything, rather, it stifles the governments ability to engage in clandestine affairs.
This is what makes the patriot act V1.0 so insidious, is that it allows the government to move in a clandestine fashion, and in fact violates the Fourth ammendment. The FOIA is beautiful in it's keeping with the ideals of the founding fathers. It limits the governments ability to act without pretense, clandestinely.
It would only make sense that Patriot Act V2.0 would get rid of such a hindrance to the government.

Book Recommendation

[Pettifogger]

If you're as outraged by "Patriot II" as most people here seem to be, go get a copy of "It Can't Happen Here," by Sinclair Lewis. Though written in 1935, it draws some spooky parallels to what's going on right now.

If there's no regime change in November 2004, I'm going to put my plans in action for leaving the country. There are better places to live, and if you're young enough and skilled/educated, you can jump through their immigration hoops and get a passport. You know, like what a whole lot of Germans did in the 30s.

Re:Book Recommendation

[iggymanz]

Could you please post list of "better places to live" than U.S.A.? Some of us are genuinely curious, and may need it for future reference!

Re:Book Recommendation

[Malcontent]

Canada, new zealand, spain, finland, sweden, belize well just about anyplace really.

Think about it what do you do every day? You work, you come home, you watch tv, you mow the lawn. Once in a while you go to a movie or a bar. Guess what you can do that in most places in the world. Is there something special you do on a regular basis that you can't do someplace else? If so what?

Re:Book Recommendation

[Malcontent]

The problem is finding a place that is willing to let americans immigrate. All the english speaking countries have very strict immigration laws and most americans can't speak another language.

Re:Book Recommendation

[elizalovesmike]

Yeah... You and Alec Baldwin... All talk

Re:Book Recommendation

[iggymanz]

Interesting list of countries, most I might find ok at least...but I wouldn't say "just about anyplace really". Most of the rest of the world is under governments and/or religions that make the place in question bad. Lack of freedom and wrong fundemental beliefs about man makes most of africa, asia, south america and the middle east a crap hole.

Re:Book Recommendation

[fucksl4shd0t]

If there's no regime change in November 2004, I'm going to put my plans in action for leaving the country.

Not me, I love my country, and I'm gonna stay here and take it back. You can run away if you want, but I'm gonna stay here and fight.

Re:Book Recommendation

[Malcontent]

"Lack of freedom and wrong fundemental beliefs about man makes most of africa, asia, south america and the middle east a crap hole."

It depends really. Take any large country on one of the places you list. For example Brazil. If you were a middle class person living in brazil you'd pretty do the same thing that you do here. You'd have a job, you'd have a house or an apt, you'd spend most of your waking hours at work, you'd come home and watch TV. The same is true no matter where you go in the world. Thailand, turkey, japan, singapore, java, australia you name it.

Honestly exactly what are you doing with your freedom that you can't do elsewhere? Is there something special that you do daily, weekly or monthly that is banned in any second or first world country? Sure the third world countries are dirt poor and you would not want to live in them but people in most countries repeat the same ritual every day. Work, tv, dinner, tv, sleep. Occationally a movie or go out to drink maybe if you are young enough then you play some sport.

I am asking honestly here. What do you do with your freedom that you can't do in any one of dozens of countries in the world?

Re:Book Recommendation

[iggymanz]

Brazil? Had a military regime from 1964 to 1985, and the current civilian goverment has interesting violent clashes with peasants. They've outlawed use of torture by police, though in practice still a problem. I especially like freedomhouse.org's description of the police as "among the worlds most violent and corrupt". And the organized crime there is a law unto itself.

Just wanted to point out that places that might look good on a travel brochure, or in a TV show set in the well-to-do section of town, might in fact be 99% a crap hole. Like Thailand, a largely fun and exciting place for tourists in some places but God help you if you ever run afoul of the police/judicial system there or wander into the wrong part of it (like 80% of it).

One of the cool things I do with my freedom is collect guns and handload ammo shooting in competition. Another is bitching about any high government official who I think is a goosestepping Nazi asshole, maybe even in a public forum. Try those hobbies out in Singapore or Thailand or even Japan.

Re:Book Recommendation

[Carlos Laviola]

Brazil? Had a military regime from 1964 to 1985, and the current civilian goverment has interesting violent clashes with peasants.

That's funny. The current administration has won the election by a landslide, and I can't remember any "violent clashes with peasants" since January 1st, the day the Workers Party had their candidate installed as the President by, like I said, a landslide. Perhaps you could point them out?

You also seem to be under the impression that Brazil has a single government that rules the entire country, but like the US, we're a Republic.

Re:Book Recommendation

[Cyno]

Just the other day I went looking through the national archives and ran across some declassified documents from the Pentagon. Inside these documents our own government drew up plans and recommended that we attack our own citizens, such as destroy a national monument, etc. Just to get us to bomb Cuba in 1962. Luckily our president at the time was Kennedy who turned down the plan. But if Bush was the president at that time do you think he would have made the same decision?

I don't think so considerring he didn't win by the popular vote. He needed anything to distract us from the Florida vote count and a national emergency is an excellent distractiong. Don't you think?

Its all so coincidental.

Re:Book Recommendation

[Cyno]

OMFG!

I just love your sig!!! ;)

Re:Book Recommendation

[Carlos Laviola]

If everybody thought the way you do, the United States wouldn't exist. :)

Re:Book Recommendation

[Malcontent]

RE:Brazil.

I urge you to go there experience it for yourself. You seem to have warped view of ordinary life there. Trust me the vast mjority of the people who live in brazil live simple ordinary lives just like you do.

Have you ever been to thailand? Again go there and see for yourself. Americans really need to get out and see how the rest of the world lives.

"s I do with my freedom is collect guns and handload ammo shooting in competition."

Guns are very common in the world. Most countries make you register your guns but don't prevent you from owning or collecting them. Of course if you are really into guns then you probably want to live in Iran, Iraq, africa, afghanistan or other places like that where there are absolutely no laws against owning any kind of a weapon even grenade launchers, whoulder fired missiles and such. If you lived there you could probably even own a tank if you could afford one!

If you love guns then you have a wide choice of countries which would get you easier access to them.

Re:Book Recommendation

[iggymanz]

no "violent clashes with peasants" for almost 4 whole months? That's good, and I do hope things get better there.

Re:Book Recommendation

[iggymanz]

Have been to Thailand, and even to Cambodia during last part of its civil war and was married there. Fascinating and interesting places (Thailand being far safer), but my warnings and observations still stand.

Have not been to Brazil, though had 2 roomates in college from there (about 20 years ago). Hope things are getting better there

Yes, many countries that would be ok to live in allow guns, but some that are otherwise ok do not. I do wish to have law & order where I live, and for gun owners to be peaceful people with regard for human life and to be held absolutely responsible for any use they make of guns! I don't want to see a bunch of crazed people with AK-47's shooting soviet 7.62x39 FMJ mostly but not always into the sky on every national holiday and even for weddings!

Re:Book Recommendation

[Malcontent]

"but my warnings and observations still stand."

Not really. THings have changed a lot recently. Surely Both Brazil and Thailand are not the same country they were twenty years ago just like the US.

As for law and order, I would not think that would be such a huge problem if you were armed to the teeth. Lots of countries have both though. For example in greece gun ownership is very popular, especially in the islands where it's an anamoly not to have guns. If you lived on a greece island not only could you have lots of guns you could also have sun, fun, beaches and great food. Better then your weekly visits to wallmart or the mall no?

Re:Book Recommendation

[kcbrown]

Not me, I love my country, and I'm gonna stay here and take it back. You can run away if you want, but I'm gonna stay here and fight.

With what? The pathetic peashooters that are the most that you can legally get nowadays?

Sorry, but revolution was only possible back when the U.S. revolution happened because the firepower of the average civilian was roughly equivalent to the firepower of the average soldier. That's not the case anymore -- a reasonably well-armed soldier probably has a tens to hundreds to one advantage over the average armed civilian, and that goes up to thousands to one if you account for the support (air, artillery, armor, etc.) the average soldier gets. And that's before we consider the exotic weapons like nukes (which raises the advantage to millions to one). Remember: it took weeks of careful planning and preparation for Timothy McVeigh to take out a single government building. That's the kind of capability the military uses routinely.

No, any revolution that happens is going to have to have a great deal of support from the military controlled by the very people who are being revolted against. In short, today ain't the 1700's and an armed revolution against a modern, reasonably well-armed government like the U.S. simply isn't possible.

Revolution by the population against the fascist German government would have been difficult enough. But against the U.S. government? No, you're WAY better off leaving, no matter how much you might like to stay and fight. Because you're basically guaranteed to lose if you stay.

Re:Book Recommendation

[fucksl4shd0t]

No, you're WAY better off leaving, no matter how much you might like to stay and fight. Because you're basically guaranteed to lose if you stay.

Actually, if you leave, you've lost. If you stay, you have a chance to win.

You're also totally oversimplifying the art of revolution. It's still possible, it's just a matter of planning and design and so forth. Mind you, the US military was beat back by armed civilians in Vietnam. The fact that they were supported by the Soviet Union somehow is relevant, a revolution might need to seek industrialized backing. OTOH, Americans build the weapons the military uses. Americans in revolution will need them too. Therefore, Americans can build them, as needed.

Granted, an armed revolution is a lot more complicated these days, but summarily dismissing it as impossible and therefore not even trying is pure cowardice. Stand and fight for what you believe in, man. It's the only fight worth fighting. Furthermore, if you've nothing worth dying for, you've nothing worth living for.

Re:Book Recommendation

[iggymanz]

Greek islands - sounds good

Re:Book Recommendation

[kcbrown]

Mind you, the US military was beat back by armed civilians in Vietnam.

It wasn't armed civilians that beat back the U.S. military, it was a well-armed and well-supplied North Vietnamese military that did it. The civilians were just a nuisance, though they were a significant one.

And despite that, the U.S. military "lost" in Vietnam only because it did not have the will to win. If it did it would have completely destroyed Hanoi. I assure you, if the U.S. government believes its very existence is threatened, it will not have that problem: it will destroy entire cities, with nukes if necessary, in order to remain in power.

The fact that they were supported by the Soviet Union somehow is relevant, a revolution might need to seek industrialized backing. OTOH, Americans build the weapons the military uses. Americans in revolution will need them too. Therefore, Americans can build them, as needed.

Industrial support for building weapons won't help you if the military either takes out or takes over the factories required to build them. The Soviet Revolution happened in 1917, before the advent of significant air power and before the development of heavy armor. It wouldn't have succeeded if the Russian military had had the ability to bomb factories from the air, or roll into an area with tanks after bombarding the area with heavy artillery and air strikes. And I haven't even mentioned busting out the nukes yet.

Granted, an armed revolution is a lot more complicated these days, but summarily dismissing it as impossible and therefore not even trying is pure cowardice. Stand and fight for what you believe in, man. It's the only fight worth fighting. Furthermore, if you've nothing worth dying for, you've nothing worth living for.

Bullshit. There's a big difference between cowardice and realism. Something's worth fighting for only if there's a chance of winning, otherwise you're better off trying to affect change from within (however difficult that may be, the chance of success will at least be greater than zero that way). But I'm telling you flat out that without military support there's NO chance of winning an armed revolution in modern America. Hasn't it occurred to you to ask why there have been no successful armed revolutions against a well-armed government (well-armed by modern standards, meaning the government has armor, artillery, lots of aircraft, etc.) by the general population anywhere in modern times? Just look at the Palestinians as an example: those guys are much better armed than the average American civilian, they're as dedicated to their cause as it gets, and yet they still haven't won despite the fact that the Israelis aren't even trying (if they were they would have leveled the entire place with their air force and sent in a full invasion force. As it is, the Israelis maintain a 10:1 kill ratio over the Palestinians, and like I said, they're not even trying).

If the U.S. government's power is truly threatened and its back is against the wall, it will have no reservations about nuking a city or two if that's what it takes to remain in power. Now just what, exactly, do you think the civilian revolutionaries are going to be able to do against that kind of power, huh?

There's a reason modern fascist regimes are able to remain in power despite the hatred the population may have towards the government: modern military power is simply too great for lightly armed civilians to deal with.

Re:Taking a stand (Different)

[anonicon]

I'm not flaming you, but I do have a suggestion or two.

First, voting is the *last* thing (literally) you should do to make changes in your political leadership. Voting is the final judgement, but getting involved in the political process is the first thing we should be doing.

I'm not talking about protests or sit-ins or organized campaigns. I'm talking about getting personally involved the EASY way. Call your state, Congressional and Senate reps and make an appointment to talk about 1 issue (this isn't an all-you-can-eat buffet) with the Rep's staffer. Follow up with a brief thank you note and a reminder of what was discussed. Follow up every two weeks with a phone call, and follow up with scheduled meetings as you feel is needed. Rinse and repeat, make it a habit like checking your e-mail.

This isn't rocket science. The methods, tools and customs of political involvement are really old. If you have the intelligence to filter Slashdot comments, you're smart enough to make a political difference.

The only variable here is your commitment to follow through. The EFF can't do it alone.

Peace,
Chuck

So let me get this straight...

[rinks]

...the government needs to know what I buy, what medicine I'm on, who I talk to, who I'm fucking... but not whether or not I own weapons in my home? How does that work, exactly?

Re:So let me get this straight...

[pair-a-noyd]

They know.....

Re:So let me get this straight...

[evilviper]

Sarcasm: That's right... "SHOOT THE NRA!", "BEAT PEACE ACTIVISTS!", and all that.

Well, this has got to be the fastest I've ever put anyone one on my foes list. Only 6 comments posted by you, and this is the second I consider a troll.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[rinks]

Who's being sarcastic? What do you consider a troll? Looked through your profile. All those comments and not one moderated above a 2? Hmm.

Re:So let me get this straight...

[evilviper]

Who's being sarcastic?

Ummm, I was, genius.

What do you consider a troll?

Well, not a difinitive answer on everything I consider a troll, but in your case: anything that shows a serious bias, that is disguised as factual info. Anti-NRA comments disguised as serious commentary on the patriot act, and anti-PS2 comments disguised by claiming it is technically inferior.

Looked through your profile. All those comments and not one moderated above a 2? Hmm.

It just depends when you look... At some points in time, I will reply to numerous comments, which usually means the comments are just standard fare, or the moderators just won't see them. The number of comments also means comments made just a couple days ago, that were moderated up, aren't shown on my info page. Also, if you look just after I've posted a number of comments, you will see them before moderators have had a chance to.

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act

[jasonditz]

"Government isn't the solution to our problems, government IS the problem"

- Reagan.

Now I know he didn't exactly live up to that promise, but you've got to admit, it sounds good :)

Re:If Cindy Cohn were representing me...

[Travoltus]

Actually I'd agree, she's hot.
(And you'd better have divine credentials to boot.)

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act

[SvnLyrBrto]

> but you've got to admit, it sounds good :)

Yeah, but so do:

"Read my lips: no new taxes!"
and
"I am not a crook."

Both of which make MUCH funnier sound bytes in everything from Hot Shots to Futurama...

(Let's face it... for all his faults, Nixon's head makes a much better comeback, when he is fitted to a robot body and wins the 3000 presidential election, than Reagan ever could have.)

cya,
john

internal justification?

[helo]

i wonder if this kind of legislation is going to help the government turn our country into enough of an "effective" police state to have a very large impact on the war on drugs. surely the government is growing tired of the inneffectivity of its current efforts. but maybe they just think they need a little bit more power to pull it off?

and here i was hoping they might choose to go the other way, and destroy the black market by giving us back some of our personal freedoms.

please remember that this is nothing more than propagandist speculation. disregard accordingly.

Re:We're Americans: Let's Stand up for our Freedom

[Malcontent]

"We support the ACLU. We support Amnesty International."

Who is we kimo sabe? The republicans have never supported the ACLU or Amnesty international. In fact they insult people by saying that they are "card carrying members of the aclu".

The republicans support the NRA but they never have and never will support either of the organizations you list.

Re:We're Americans: Let's Stand up for our Freedom

[Nerant]

Have you even been to Singapore? I don't recall the Economist being banned. Yes, porn mags are banned.
"The Chinese in Singapore" : Singapore is a multi-racial society, not a province of China.

"Both Singapore and the USA are modern societies in terms of technology". Yup, and guess which one has a LAW called the DMCA?

Moderators, please stop modding such FUD up.

ISA: Chinese Version of the Patriot Act

[reporter]

Please read "national statistics about Singapore" at World Atlas. About 80% of the population in Singapore considers itself "Chinese". Most of them support the Singaporean laws that suppress civil liberties and human rights.

Examples include the periodic banning of "The Economst", arresting people holding a peaceful demonstration against the government, encouraging eugenics (i. e. breeding "smart" people), etc. The former prime minister, Lee Quan Yew, had implemented a policy of eugenics. These and other shocking examples of civil-rights/human-rights violations are described at "Singaporean-statistics web page" by Freedom House. Singapore has a law called the Internal Security Act. It is the Chinese version of the Patriot Act and is a clear violation of civil liberties. Further, most Chinese support the Singaporean laws. They even support the laws that banned or restricted "Time Magazine", "Far Eastern Economic Review", and "The Economist".

Singapore is an example of what the Chinese have done. It is also an example of what the United States must never become.

We Americans must protest the Patriot Act and its variants. We must support civil liberties and human rights. Otherwise, our society will degenerate into a place like Singapore or, worse, China.

Funny...

[aiken_d]

Whoever came up with "America, land of the Free" probably didn't think it was sarcastic. It's pretty sad when you have to look to Russia and China as beacons of liberty. Oh, they've got their own problems, but if you graph trends in freedom in the US, Russia, and China, it's not a pretty picture. The so-called evil communists are more free now than the've been in 200 years, while we losers in the US are far *less* free than we've been in... well, ever.

Cheers
-b

Re:Funny...

[spacemky]

This is the dumbest thing I've seen in this thread yet...

sure China and Russia have more freedoms if you talk about warez and copyright law, but look at things like freedom of speech/press, freedom of religion, and other freedoms you are taking for granted.

How is China and Russia more free than the U.S?

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act ( the cynic in me speaking)

[Scarblac]

Apparently Pim Fortuyn's politics were widely mischaracterized [curry.com] in most media after his asassination. You may find there was a lot more to like about the guy than most people outside of the Netherlends was led to believe.

My view of Fortuyn.

Fortuyn was absolutely not a racist or a fascist. Comparing him to Le Pen or so (extreme right wing in France) is stupid. He pointed out there were problems with integration of foreigners in the Netherlands. Well, duh.

But he was a populist. He had great charisma, was a great public speaker, and continuously made the current politicians look ridiculous. He also had a great talent for pointing out problems. The problem was that his "solutions" were extremely vague, naive, brutal and unlikely to work. But what does that matter, the man looked good on tv!... He went from nowhere to a quarter of the poll votes in no time.

Some left wing nut panicked and shot him. This was easy, bodyguards were unknown in Dutch politics, we had a PM that came to work on his bicycle. It's very sad. Love him or hate him, the Fortuyn show was cool to watch.

And there's no way he could have made it as a US politician, btw. He was so blatantly homosexual... there was a tv interview in which he intimated that his boyfriend's sperm tasted differently depending on what he ate the evening before. The fact that everybody considered this obviously irrelevant to politics, and no politician tried to attack his personal life is an important reason why I still love this country.

I envision...

[Travoltus]

Patriot II: Reloaded

Wasn't she the woman...

[bjorky]

...who was on "Facts of Life?"

Natalie Green, I think.

No, wait, that was Mindy Cohn

Forget I said anything.

Re:The Sequal!

[ShamusYoung]

At The Lemon: New Patriot Act II Gives Police Authority to "String 'em Up"

Look at Patriot Act I

[ShamusYoung]

When talking about Patriot Act II, it helps to see what the first one gave us:

The Patriot Act. (Satire)

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act

[surprise_audit]

Tell that to all the folks who got pissed at the Dixie Chicks for their comments about Bush and the War...

Anyone that doesn't oppose PA I or II isnt

[webmaker]

a Patriot! "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." -- Julius Caesar

Ben Franklin

[Joehonkie]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Maybe I missed this one but I'm surprised noone has posted it yet. Our founding fathers had a fairly dim view of a central government's ability to use its power properly.

Re:We're Americans: Let's Stand up for our Freedom

[Joehonkie]

First of all, Taiwan is also populated by Chinese, and they have grown out of an opressive military regime into a fairly well functioning democracy. You should watch your potentially racist rhetoric there. It sounds like you are saying that Chinese people are naturally against the idea of freedom. "Westerners" lived under opressive monarchical and post-monarchical systems for a long time, and it was a Westerner who created "Fascism."

Second, anyone who decides to make blanket statements about Republicans (such as "no Republican is a member of the ACLU") as a whole is as useless as those say things about "the Democrats." If you just vote for one party because you can't concieve of the other party having anything useful to add, it might mean you only have one good party, more likely it means you are closed-minded. People who believe and vote the party line without looking at the issues are harmful to the essential concept of Democracy.

Re:An alternative definition

[yintercept]

I still see patriotism as a positive value. The patriot is someone who will act to preserve the community, the patriot is willing to go to the wall for ideas higher than themselves...but as the definition gets skewed by short sighted politicians, it turns from true patriotism to nationalism...it turns from a virtue to a disease.

True patriotism involves a balance. The true patriot not only loves one's country, but wants to do what is right for it. For example, there were true patriots in the Iraq army who chose to lay down their weapons because they felt it was better for their country to end the war quickly, just as there were true Iraqi patriots who fought to the bitter end.

The current administrations tact of twisting the word patriotism to justify any end will turn a virtue into a vice.

This is the essence of the Greek Tragedy. The tragic flaw is a virtue that, when taken to the nth degree, leads to the downfall of the tragic hero.

The funny thing is that conservatives understand this principle when applied to charity. They understand that excessive charity of the government leads to a welfare state. It is odd that they do not know that the same rule applies to their own virtues.

Why does the flag story icon only have 12 stripes?

[Jered]

The American flag has 13 stripes, one for each of the original colonies. What conspiracy has led Slashdot to have a 12-striped flag as a story icon?

Re:We're Americans: Let's Stand up for our Freedom

[reporter]

A critic writes, " You should watch your potentially racist rhetoric there. It sounds like you are saying that Chinese people are naturally against the idea of freedom. ".

One of the problems with Chinese thinking is that the Chinese consider Americans or, in general, Westerners to be only "Whites" or "Blacks". The Chinese do not consider, say, Vietnamese to be Americans. So, to the Chinese, praising Americans means praising only "Whites" or "Blacks". The Chinese way of thinking is racist. This observation is another reason why Westerners are radically different from non-Westerners like the Chinese. For the record, when we Americans praise Western society, we are praising all the ethnic groups in Western society. Let's stop thinking and acting like the Chinese, okay? This matter is not an issue of race but is an issue of culture.

The critic further writes, " First of all, Taiwan is also populated by Chinese, and they have grown out of an opressive military regime into a fairly well functioning democracy ".

Let's consider the following.

1. The constitution of the Chinese living in Taiwan supports the integration of both Tibet and Mongolia into mainland China. While Tibetans suffer and die at the hands of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, the Chinese in Taiwan support integrating Tibet into "One China".

2. The Chinese son of the chairman of a powerful conglomerate in Taiwan has joined with the son of Jiang Zemin, the butcher of Tibet, to build an advanced silicon-wafer factory in Shanghai. (reference: "Sons of prominent Chinese team up on chip venture")

3. Senior Chinese military officials retired from the Taiwanese military have gone to mainland China and given military secrets about the American F-16 fighter jet to the Beijing government. (reference: "Sons of prominent Chinese team up on chip venture")

4. The Chinese from "poor, little, scared" Taiwan have invested more than $50 billion into more than 50,000 businesses in mainland China. How did this phenomenon happen? Immediately, after the Tienanman Square incident back in June 4, 1989, the American government and businesses curtailed investments in mainland China. The Taiwanese (and the other Chinese in Hong Kong) seized this window of opportunity and accelerated investments into mainland China. The rate of investments from Taiwan into China has skyrocketed to the present levels; investments continue to grow at double-digit rates.

5. In 1999, the "Wall Street Journal" reported that of all the Chinese arrested and convicted of stealing American military technology to give to Beijing, the majority of these Chinese came from Taiwan. Please read "Crypto Smuggle Scheme Busted" for an example of Chinese (from Taiwan) who were recently arrested for attempting to smuggle American military technology to mainland China.

Do we really want the USA to become like Taiwan, the Chinese "democracy"? Thanks, but no thanks.

Nice Picture of Cindy...

[Master of Transhuman]

Now I have it on my hard drive along with my other 62,000 pictures of babes...

Re:Taking a stand (Different)

[abirdman]

Wow, the parent post is one of the best things I've ever read here on Slashdot-- thoughtful, rational, clear-headed, refreshing-- and I thank you for posting it.

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act ( the cynic in me speaking)

[zackbar]

You forget the size of the country. The country is around, roughly, the size of one of our states.

How easy would it be for foreigners to find weapons of mass destruction in, say, Illinois, if the country wanted to hide them? That's a lot of space to search.

Keep in mind that saddam had plenty of time and reason to hide them, and no requirement that they be quickly readied for employment. In fact, he would have had every reason to stock them with the idea that they wouldn't be needed until such a time that he had a critical mass of them. (no pun intended.)

Re:Don't think so.

[zackbar]

Excuse me, but the budget deficit and the state of the economy aren't the same thing.

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act

[jasonditz]

As do

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman!"

and

"I took the initiative in creating the Internet"

Politicians lie, its what they do.

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act

[SvnLyrBrto]

Oh gee... horror of horrors, Bill Clinton got a blowjob. That makes him evil incarnate. No force more evil in the WORLD than a man who got a blowjob. That's SO much worse than starting a couple of wars of aggression, imprisoning people without trial or access to lawyers, throwing away our obligations under half a dozen treaties, wipeing your ass with the Bill of Rights, UN Charter, and Geneva Conventions, and destroying the economy! None of THAT is in any way wrong, because Clinton got a BLOWJOB!

Oh, and Al Gore did not claim to invent the internet. You who say otherwise are just dittoheads taking a poorly-worded statement out of context. So FOAD.

cya,
john

Re:Haha "Patriot" Act

[jasonditz]

nice flame pal.

But seriously, your link to the Gore quote includes word for word exactly what I said, doesn't it? Yeah, egg on my face... huh?

Bush is evil as hell, but so was Clinton. Don't pretend that the umpteen wars he got us involved in were any more legitimate than the Bush ones. Granted, they were smaller, but are the thousands of people he killed any less dead?