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Build Your Own Cruise Missile

WegianWarrior writes "Bruce Simpson, the man behind one of the more interesting site about pulsejets on the web, has launched a project to build a US$5000 DIY cruisemissile - just to prove that it can be done, since some said his earlier article about it was off the peg. Bruce has also designed and placed on his site a non-weld pulsejet you can build with simple tools, a 2D airflow modeling rig and a new valve/injector design for conventional pulsejets (according to the first page on his site, this new design is placed in the public domain)." We linked to his pulsejet pages about two years ago.

92 of 561 comments (clear)

  1. Wow by SugoiMonkey · · Score: 5, Funny
    And I thought sites with pipe bomb recipes were revolutionary! Man, will Mr. Smith be suprised when he opens his mail box this time.

    The Monkey Pages: Not just another personal site...okay, so I lie.

    1. Re:Wow by qazxsw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately they've been dumbing down the high school chemistry books to make sure students can't figure out how to from those books. They've ruined chemistry classes in the pathetic attempt to prevent students from learning "bad things".

    2. Re:Wow by trotski · · Score: 4, Funny

      Science in a big waste of time anyway,

      people should be studying for their MBA's and try hard to get football scholarships instead of wasteing they're time trying to learn about the world.

      Szeeesh!

      --

      "Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
    3. Re:Wow by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's impossible to know jack shit about chemistry withouut knowing how to make some sorts of incendiary or explosive mixtures. Unless all you know is what you've memorized by rote and you dont understand any of the underlying principles, in which case you dont know jack.

    4. Re:Wow by identity0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't know if you've been in an American high school, but over here we generally make kids take a "general science" course before chemistry, biology, & physics. The one I took was complete crap, but that's more the (gym) teacher's fault... Anyways, the gernal science class should be the place where the scientific method is taught, and the other specialized classes should be for teaching the results of the method - discoveries in the respective fields in the past.

  2. Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    An anti-spam solution that's bound to work....

  3. hmm by SHEENmaster · · Score: 5, Funny

    I bet I could get some nerds to build one of these and send a hamster into space.

    As the apprentice of Prof. Chaos said, "SIMPSONS DID IT!!!!"

    --
    You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
    1. Re:hmm by UnixRevolution · · Score: 2, Interesting

      even military cruise missiles can't reach low orbit. That's impossible :P

      Incidentally, i noticed his margin of error for targeting is +- 100 yards. YARDS, people. a football field either way. for terrorists this won't matter too much, but i imagine greater accuracy should be a primary goal.

      --
      You like your new Mac more than you like me, don't you, Dave? Dave? I asked...She said Yes.
    2. Re:hmm by UnixRevolution · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's a football field either way, half as long as a VW Beetle, weighs as much as 4 cowboyneals, and gets to its target quicker than a win2k server box can be slashdotted :P

      --
      You like your new Mac more than you like me, don't you, Dave? Dave? I asked...She said Yes.
    3. Re:hmm by maxentius · · Score: 3, Funny

      I just send them up
      I don't know where they come down
      That's not my department
      Said Werner von Braun
      --Tom Lehrer

      --
      Imagine a Beowulf cluster of neurons.
    4. Re:hmm by SEWilco · · Score: 2, Insightful
      even military cruise missiles can't reach low orbit. That's impossible :P

      Depends what they are being launched from. And how far up they are when launched.

    5. Re:hmm by Natalie's+Hot+Grits · · Score: 2, Funny

      'I never understood how Americans can call that game "football"'

      Because you kick it(once or twice per game), silly :P

      heh

      --
      Two infinite things: your stupidity and mine. But I'm not sure about the latter. If my sig offends you, I'm sorry.
  4. HAHAHA!!!! by trotski · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now I'll show my loser neighbour down the street who's boss! One tomahawk coming up!

    --

    "Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
  5. What kind of stickers will be on it? by Mr.+Arbusto · · Score: 5, Funny

    Seriously,

    Intel Inside

    AMD

    Designed for Windows 95

    Though, personally I like a peace sign.

    1. Re:What kind of stickers will be on it? by Some+Dumbass... · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ob Simpson's Quote:

      "Caution: Aim Away From Face"

      (Though of course, this message is a bit underspecified. Presumably they mean the firer's face, not the target's face :)

    2. Re:What kind of stickers will be on it? by EricTheMad · · Score: 3, Funny

      I prefer what's written on the bussiness end of a Claymore mine:

      "This side towards enemy"

      --
      -- Remember, we're not happy until you're not happy. -- Local FAA Inspector --
    3. Re:What kind of stickers will be on it? by SEWilco · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'd prefer that the back say "Other side toward enemy". The front should say "If you can read this, you're too close."

  6. One question.. by Lord+Fren · · Score: 5, Funny

    Where do you put the warhead? Some of my Korean friends were asking...

    1. Re:One question.. by UnixRevolution · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm guessing "In the Missile." However, i'm not an expert.

      --
      You like your new Mac more than you like me, don't you, Dave? Dave? I asked...She said Yes.
    2. Re:One question.. by Lord+Fren · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Looking at the picture and diagram, its shaped like a missile, but it is basically a big engine; it isn't designed to carry payload apparently.

    3. Re:One question.. by kesuki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Keep in mind the tridents are our third iteration of total world anhiliation. our first was long range bombers flying with nukes, our second were remote ICBM silos, there were many of them scattered throught the midwest. The third, and current method are trident equiped subs. Remember -- the point of a tactical nuke was to keep the president from ever pressing the button that would cause the coded messages to be sent to the planes/silos/subs.
      It's possibe that with trident subs that they could retaliate up to month after the end of the united states of america. Our prior methods had about a an hour within which they could launch the retalitory strike. Tactical nukes could have caused the russians to 'win' a nuclear war against america prior to the inroduction of nuclear retaliation subs. But there are some valid points that a tactical nuke wouuld need to be powerful enough to instantly destroy the early warning system, while missles were being launched, and simultaniously there would have to be something like a close re-election night bid to destract the president long enough that he might not push the button on hearing that our early warning center was destroyed, and we have no idea if the russians are launching at us or not...

  7. Chinese Silkworm cruise missile by phr2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm told you can buy Chinese Silkworm cruise missiles for $25K or so at your friendly arms bazaar. The Silkworm is basically a Mig-17 airframe with the pilot replaced by a guidance system. Man, this stuff is scary.

    1. Re:Chinese Silkworm cruise missile by dvk · · Score: 5, Informative
      The Silkworm is basically a Mig-17 airframe with the pilot replaced by a guidance system. I'm not quite sure if that's true, judging from the images:
      Silkworm doesn't look too close to MiG-17

      However, IIRC, USSR did have a cruise missile developed based on MiG-17 - AS-1 "Kennel".

      BTW, a minor nitpick - correct spelling is MiG (which is shorthand for Mikhoyan i Gureevitch, two of the designers wgo started the bureau).

      -DVK

      --
      "The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
    2. Re:Chinese Silkworm cruise missile by dvk · · Score: 4, Informative

      That would be "Gurevitch", not "Gureevitch", of course. Need to learn to type better :)

      Oh, and while i'm at it, the URL for the MiG "ÍÉËÏÑÎ É ÇÕÒÅ×É" Bureau is:
      http://www.migavia.ru

      -DVK

      --
      "The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
    3. Re:Chinese Silkworm cruise missile by xmnemonic · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, MiG officially stands for Moscow Industries Group now, after the formation of MAPO (Moscow Air Power Organization) consortium in the 90s IIRC. Kind of like how Aeroflot changed its name to Russian National Airlines. It's a shame to see those companies switch to such bland names... the rise of marketing has become apparent now after the rise of capitalism in Russia.

    4. Re:Chinese Silkworm cruise missile by GENERAL+DISORDER · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm told you can buy Chinese Silkworm cruise missiles for $25K or so at your friendly arms bazaar.

      Where exactly is my local arms bazaar? I can't seem to find it in the yellow pages. (And do they take credit cards?)

      The Silkworm is basically a Mig-17 airframe with the pilot replaced by a guidance system.

      Rather it's an anti-ship missile based on the Soviet made Styx, which China acquired from the USSR in the late 50s/early sixties. Since then a lot of variations have been made on it. The Silkworm and its variants seem to be popular with assorted totalitarian hellhole states (Iraq, Iran, North Korea...).

  8. Time for big brother to stop this by Blaine+Hilton · · Score: 3, Funny
    Well at least we know what happened when he stop publishing his daily newsletter.

    How do you want to calculate today?

  9. Hmmm... by MacDork · · Score: 5, Funny

    Bill Gates: "Hmmm... 50,000,000,000/5,000 = 10,000,000 cruise missles... Imagine a beowolf cluster of these you hippies!"

  10. man.. by ewhenn · · Score: 4, Funny

    At a million dollars a pop, the US govt. sure gets ripped off on theirs.

  11. this raises some interesting questions indeed ... by DataShark · · Score: 5, Interesting

    besides the obvious *geek* factor this kind of *experiments* and demonstrations should make us all stop to think a bit ...

    how do we prevent terrorist from using this kind of stuff ?

    limiting acces to knowledge (with DMCA style laws)?

    creating a orwellian policial state where all are suspect ans subject to vigilance (and who controls the vigilantes) ?

    limitating the publication of (now) public-domain stuff ('cause it can be used to devilish ends) ?

    the RIAA/DMCA people already want to control what could go on the net, and that is, maybe, only the beggining (see China - although there 's hope there - see the massive failure of the SARS coverup) so maybe it is time to start thinking about how to mantain the net free and at the same time this planet a safe planet to stay ...

    just my two uros,

    cheers from Portugal

  12. Not too hard by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting
    He's really just building a model airplane with a pulse-jet engine. The engine technology is basically that of a WWII V-1. But the guidance will be far, far better. V-1 "buzz bombs" had trouble hitting the right city.

    The impressive thing about cruise missiles is the multi-thousand mile range. That's achieved with very clever turbojet engine design, and some of that technology is still classified. Still, it's decades old.

    (It's annoying that general aviation is still putt-putting around on reciprocating engines, decades after everything big went turbine.)

  13. emails by geekoid · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Not surprisingly, that piece has produced a significant amount of feedback from the tens of thousands of people who have read it so far"

    I am a felow hobbiest, please sned me detailed plans.
    FROM: moustashiod_villian@yahoo.com

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:emails by delta407 · · Score: 2, Funny
      I am a felow hobbiest
      What makes you think you're hobbier than everyone else?

      Hmm?
  14. Re:Air force substitute? by Rolo+Tomasi · · Score: 4, Funny

    Uh-Oh, New Zealand building Weapons of Mass Destruction. Next thing you know Osama has been spotted in Wellington. I bet the B2s are already being fueled up as I write this.

    --
    Did you know you can fertilize your lawn with used motor oil?
  15. Re:this raises some interesting questions indeed . by taxelxii · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The real question is not 'how do we prevent terrorist from using this king of stuff' , since if joe-nobody can build a cruise missile in his backyard, you can be sure that terrorist organisations could have built it years ago. However, they do not need to buy their own missile. They have enough money to buy *quality* missiles from kind multinational corporations when they want to.

    The question this article raises is why would somebody who is not totally out of his mind would want to build a cruise missile. I don't think the *geek* factor alone would be a correct answer. A cruise missile... as if the world needed more of those. I cannot believe the man could not find anything more useful to build.

  16. Re:this raises some interesting questions indeed . by EinarH · · Score: 5, Insightful
    how do we prevent terrorist from using this kind of stuff ?
    You can't protect yourself 100% from the fact that terrorist could construct and use a LCCM. The illusion of security is something that you just have top deal with. The illusion that a nation can protect itself 100% from a terrorist attack is quite naive.
    limiting acces to knowledge (with DMCA style laws)?
    Won't work. The information someone needs to do this is already public. Everything one needs about electronics, mechanics, jet engines, physics, math, rochet science etc.; it's all avalible as for someone to "piece togheter".
    creating a orwellian policial state where all are suspect ans subject to vigilance (and who controls the vigilantes) ?
    With PATRIOT ACT and the enchanced PATRIOT II you will probably get there faster than you know of..
    limitating the publication of (now) public-domain stuff ('cause it can be used to devilish ends) ?
    Well I doubt that would work since someone who wants the information could get it from Europe, Russia or/and Asia.
    And the cost of putting a limit on informatin in areas such as electronics or rocket science would be *way* over what anyone would accept.


    The best way to prevent a terrorist attack with LCCM's is to keep an eye on who's who in rocket scienc, jet propulsion and turbo jets.
    The powerplant on the rocket is the one single component that i difficault to get(buy) or construct.

    Or better (like thats gonna happen); try to eliminate the reason behind the fact that there actually are (probably) somone who wants to fire a LCCM on New York.

    --

    Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

  17. Re:it's really not funny. by Mr+Guy · · Score: 2, Informative

    What? That's mostly where the economic benefit from conflict comes from. Blow up the old shit, buy new, more high tech, more expensive new shit.

  18. He's fine until someone hits NZ with it by covertlaw · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Yeah,

    Just go ahead and put out the plans for a rudementary cruise missle. Your country is in no danger of getting attacked. Oh wait, al Qaeda hates Australia and New Zealand now, too! Damn, that's going to be ironic indeed when you get smoked by your own design.

    By the way, it doesn't matter if the missle has a guidance system or not. Just as long as any civilians are killed, Osama and his minions are happy. Very much like the Nazis with the V-1/V-2. Didn't matter if it hit anything important, just as long as it killed a few people in London.

    1. Re:He's fine until someone hits NZ with it by ehintz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They may well hate Aussies, but I'd be quite surprised if they put Kiwis that high on the list. You see, NZ didn't take part in the little coalition, was more closely aligned with Germany, France, and the rest of Europe, and in fact their PM took a lot of crap for publicly stating she didn't think the war would've happened with a Gore administration. For the most part the Kiwis are keeping a low profile and minding their own business on the international stage. We Uhmehrikuhns could do well to learn from thier example, rather than showering praise on the military conquests of a draft dodging deserter.

      --
      ehintz
    2. Re:He's fine until someone hits NZ with it by ehintz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I know. But you don't really need them, because you don't go around starting shit and sticking your noses in where they don't belong just because a few local rich guys want some more cash. You also have the best roads I've ever driven on. Damned fantastic, the only time they sucked was when there were crews making 'em better. Try that in the US; our roads for the most part haven't had significant upgrades since the '50s. My wife got sick while we were there on holiday, we saw several docs, no insurance, cost us $40nzd a pop. Prescription meds, around $10nzd. By comparison, no insurance up here would run you around $60-100usd, and you'd be lucky to walk away from the meds at less than $40usd. It seems to me that you may pay slightly more in taxes than we working stiffs up here (IIRC middle class down there are around 39%, up here it's probably around 30% unless you pay big bucks to a CPA), but you get a helluva lot more services for it. Smart. Me, I pay taxes so's we can build smartbombs to lob at folks who have oil that Haliburton wants^H^H^H^H Evildoers Who Hate Our Freedom (TM). Dumb.

      --
      ehintz
  19. Re:Charleton Heston is licking his lips by BrainInAJar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes. Please do.

    Right to bear arms (poor bear...) is to protect yourself from a tyrannical government... when the government has smart bombs, nuclear weapons, and the brand-new F-22 Raptor at it's disposal, a 30-06 rifle is about as useful as a shiv made from an old spoon.

  20. Good luck to him. by dj28 · · Score: 4, Informative

    However, I don't think it's nearly as easy as he paints it out on his website. He may have a working rocket design, but that's not the hard part. The hard part is getting the guidance system to work with your rocket. That doesn't come "off the shelf", and he's going to have to do a lot of software hacking in order to get it all to work together. Not only does this guy have to be a quasi-expert in rocket design, he's going to have to know a lot about software design.

    He's trying to do something that most nations in the world can't even do. It takes entire nations years to come up with even a short-range cruise missile. This guy thinks he can do it in under $5000, by himself? Building a rocket-propelled go-kart is one thing. Making a cruise missile with an accuracy of +/- 100 yards is a whole different level.

    And this doesn't even take into account FAA regulations he's going to have to comply with if he plans on lobbing one of those missiles on a 100 mile flight path.

  21. Re:it's really not funny. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is spending money to keep people employed.

    Cruise Missile production keep people in California, Kansas, Missouri and Washington employeed through the primary assembly and secondary assembly and R&D.

    Subcontractors are scattered around the country.

    Apache helicopters are assembled and tested in Arizona.

    M-1 tank upgrades and factory caretaking is in Michigan.

    F-15E, I, S and Ks are assembled in St. Louis MO.

    JDAM kits are also made in St. Louis.

    Captial Warships are built in Maine, Virgina, Rhode Island, Mississippi, Florida, Wisconson and I might be forgetting some places.

    B-1B upgrades will take place in Texas and the parts are made all over the place.

    In short, defense does help employment, and it helps keep blue-collar and engineering jobs going all over the country.

  22. Re:it's really not funny. by neurostar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why not spend that money on getting the 8.8 million people that are currently unemployed some jobs?

    Because then you risk spiraling into socialism by doleing out tax dollars...

    Note: I'm not trolling, I'm serious.

    neurostar
  23. Re:this raises some interesting questions indeed . by gfilion · · Score: 5, Interesting

    how do we prevent terrorist from using this kind of stuff ?

    Dammit, a bunch of teenagers with box cutters have fly jumbo jets in the WTC. They had about 200 times more explosive in these jets than in one of these missiles and their equipement cost was box cutters and airplane tickets. Why would they want to build one of those missiles?

    You have to solve the weakest link, not the sexy link.

    Now I'm putting my aluminium foil beanie back on.

  24. Williams Jet Engine by Latent+Heat · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I heard (in Aviation Week - aka AvLeak) that some dotcom entrepreneur dudes crossed over to work on a 7-person jet taxi -- the idea was for the price of first class airfare you would have a nationwide version of a ride-share cab system. They were going for some ridiculous price point (like half a million for a jet -- you can hardly get a prop plane for those bucks these days). They were going to use a pair of Williams mini fanjet engines of the type used on cruise missiles. Those Williams engines are a whole 'nother story just by themselves -- like they take solid blocks of titanium and use an NC machine to mill out the whole rotor assembly for one of these things in one piece.

    Anyway, the aircraft went through its inevitable weight growth (like software bloat when you keep adding features to a package) and it has outgrown the Williams jet engines, and they begged Williams to come up with a higher thrust version, but Williams has a good thing going with the cruise missile and said nothing doing about changing their design. Trouble is that the next tier of jet engine costs ten times as much which means the half mil price tag on the jet plane is out the windows, so I don't know what is happening.

    1. Re:Williams Jet Engine by transient · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sounds like you're describing Eclipse Aviation.

      --

      irb(main):001:0>
  25. Now Bush by hengist · · Score: 2, Funny

    Will declare New Zealand to be part of the Axis of Evil.

  26. Re:it's really not funny. by atam · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While this money spent on weapons does translate to some employment, it should be noted that a lot of the defence budget are actually spent towards R&D. You could waste billions of dollars to test run dozens of the experimental weapon in order to get it work correctly. This money does not necessarily create that many employment. It is much better off spending the money on infrastructure projects, such as repairing broken highways, bridges, schools, etc. It will not only get more people to be employed, but also improve the general living standard.

  27. Re:He talked to military folks, eh? by EinarH · · Score: 2, Funny
    ...., so when threat is imminent they can shut down the GPS bands in the area.
    Which of the to following scenarios sounds most likely:

    1.
    Radar operator in military:-God damit! OMFG! There is CM heading for the Washington prob. the White House! I'm caling the President RIGHT NOW so he can shut down the civilian GPS system.
    *Calls White House by dialing 666-WWHITE HOUSE EMERGENCY HOT-LINE*
    President: -Howdy! What's up sergeant?
    *Radar op. explains*
    President: -Ok. I press the button that triggers the civil GPS-system on and of, it right here om my side on the desk.
    *President push button and civil GPS-system is offline. Terrorist CM crash.*
    Total time from detection to shutdown: Less than 2 min.

    or

    2.
    Radar operator in military:-God damit! OMFG! There is CM heading for the Washington prob. the White House! I'm caling my [Insert highest ranking officer he can call].
    *Calls [highest ranking officer]* Highest ranking fficer: -Holy shit! OMFG this ain't no test or exercise!
    *trigger all the possible terrorist alarms*
    *Calls Chief of Staff in Pentagon (or whoever is in charge there)*
    Chief of Staff: -Holy shit. OMFG we are running out of time, fuck the President, not time to get in touch with him. I'm taking the decision: We have to shut down the civil GPS system who guids the CM.
    *Calls [whatever agency who is in charge of this system]
    Chief of Staff: -Incomming terorist CM in Washington. Sut down the civil GPS system NOW!
    At the agency: The techdude: -OK.
    *Techdude writes on his keyboard : "shutdown -h now" (or similar command)*
    *Civil GPS system goes down and CM crash*
    Total time from detection to shutdown: Somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes. (wildly guessed)

    --

    Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

  28. I plan on using mine by Rhinobird · · Score: 2, Funny

    My cruise missile is for hunting and self defense only.

    --
    If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
  29. Quick! by Rhinobird · · Score: 4, Funny

    We must slashdot this page before the information gets into the wrong hands!

    --
    If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
  30. Not that easy, either by MtViewGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think while it's within easy reach to build what amounts to a large RC model powered by a pulsejet engine and guided by GPS, there are a number of issues he needs to address:

    1. The pulsejet ain't going to be quiet. The motorboat sound of pulsejet engines are going to be dead giveaways of its presence. It'll be better to use a small RC jet engine with careful exhaust design to muffle the jet engine sound or a modified RC piston engine that drives a multibladed propeller so the engine runs at a lower speed to reduce engine noise.

    2. A 10 kilogram warhead isn't going to do much in the way of damage, unless it dispenses a really toxic biological agent like botulin poison.

    3. Guiding the DIY cruise missile is going to be a very tricky proposition. While GPS will get the missile to the general target area, the lack of the ability to avoid obstacles and to fly very low to avoid most radars means the missile will have to cruise at about the same altitude as the V-1 (about just over 1,000 meters off the ground), which means it can be intercepted by modern ground AA systems.

  31. whoops... by dpaton.net · · Score: 2, Interesting

    He didn't look into the fact that civillian GPS recievers crop the data stream if the speed gets over abour ~300mph or the altiture exceeds a preset amount (15kft?).

    After his pulsejet is lit and going for a minute, he'll ahve a damn hard time driving it without any guidance information other than dead reckoning...

    --
    This is not a sig. this is a duck. quack.
    1. Re:whoops... by exhilaration · · Score: 2, Informative
      "Crop the data stream"? What does that mean?

      I used my Garmin handheld unit on a TWA flight a few months back, and it gave me seemingly accurate information. We were cruising at over 600mph, I forget the altitude, and everything on the GPS unit looked perfect. Before we landed at Newark airport, the GPS unit said that we were over Paramus NJ and I managed to take a picture of a mall I was familiar with. My friends were impressed. So you might have outdated info...

  32. Yeah, whatever by autopr0n · · Score: 3, Insightful

    God forbid anyone have a hobby and share with people how to do it! It's just immoral.

    Especialy when it's obvious that terrorists are way to stupid to figure any of this stuff out themselves.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  33. Technology of terrorism by DaCool42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ever notice how we are all worried about terrorists building bombs, missles, etc and they just crash a plane into a building?

    --

    ----
    All of whose base are belong to the what-now?
  34. Doesn't anyone know what .nz means? by hengist · · Score: 3, Informative
    Look carefully, people, he's in New Zealand, the USian feds don't have any power here. And I think it would be a bit hard for the US to justify sending troops here to grab him and sling him in Guantanamo prison.

    Not that I wouldn't put it past those wankers Bush and Ashcroft to try.

    1. Re:Doesn't anyone know what .nz means? by Loki_1929 · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Doesn't anyone know what .nz means?"

      That we'll soon be liberating New Zealand?

      *rimshot*

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    2. Re:Doesn't anyone know what .nz means? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't worry, the US is already "liberating" us from a free-trade deal because of our prime-minister's "regrettable" opinion on the war ;)

  35. Re:why not use a large RC plane? by CyberWolf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Way back when I was going to university, we had a lot of unwanted guest (G-7 summit or something like that and a whole bunch of protestors). A friend of mine joked about using an RC plane to carry a home-made bomb and blow up the conference. A small group of Comp Sci and Engineer students sat down and thought about it. Our solution involved a glider (for a stealth approach) and an onboard camera (since we did not want to be near the conference). The only limiting factors we came up with (with respect to the size of the bomb) was the wing span of the glider. The bigger the span, the bigger the bomb, the easier it is to spot.

    We never build it, since we did not care one way or the other about the conference (other than the fact that the protestors caused a lot of disruption to our classes), and we became scared of how easily anyone could build one of this things (using readily available parts, components and kits).

    It was an eye opener of how illusionary our protection from this sort of stuff was (this was years before the Sept. 11 attacks). We realized how much our safety depended on the goodwill of our neighbours not to use something like this.

    And like many posters have said before, anyone with enough education (we were all studying for Bachelor's Degrees) can build something like this, even if the information is freely available.

  36. Re:I Love How These Guys... by John+Jorsett · · Score: 2, Insightful
    they proceed to walk you through all the steps needed to not only do it but to do it surreptitiously

    Based on the stuff he's buying, he doesn't have to even *try* to do it surreptitiously. It's all stuff that's used for many mundane purposes. Until it's all put together, it's as harmless and commonplace as dirt.

  37. Re:This pisses me off. by autopr0n · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just when does this become illegal or a threat to the public?

    Never. You know that thing... freedom of speech?

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  38. But what about... by Guppy06 · · Score: 4, Funny

    A Tom Cruise Missile?

    Help! The Scientologists are after me!

  39. Re:Good luck by uberdave · · Score: 4, Interesting
    It is not difficult at all, and he is using off the shelf technology. This will give him straight, level flight regardless of wind, or minor design imbalances. GPS units are relatively cheap. The only other thing you need is a microcomputer to glue it all together. A PIC microcontroller can do the job for less than $20.

    As a matter of fact, check out this site. GPS navigation of model airplanes has been around for at least seven years already.
    Before a flight, Montgomery programs into a laptop computer the path that he wants the aircraft to follow. This information then is downloaded into the airplane's onboard computer. After placing the plane on the runway and starting the engine, he pushes a single button, the aircraft takes off, flies the preprogrammed course and then lands all by itself.

    Averaged over a kilometer course, the deviation in the aircraft's position from the programmed course was typically less than 0.5 meter horizontally, 0.25 meter vertically and 0.25 meters per second in air speed, Montgomery reported.

    "Carrier differential GPS is accurate enough for most purposes, so you don't need a lot of expensive equipment," he said.
    The only difference I see is that this guy is using a jet powered craft, and is calling it a cruise missile. Other than that, it is the same thing.

    Oh, and by the way, the FAA has no jurisdiction in New Zealand.
  40. Re:this raises some interesting questions indeed . by timeOday · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Or better (like thats gonna happen); try to eliminate the reason behind the fact that there actually are (probably) somone who wants to fire a LCCM on New York.
    I doubt you could appease Kim Chong-il, Timothy McVeigh, Bin Laden, and the Unibomber all at the same time, even if you tried.
  41. Re:it's really not funny. by atam · · Score: 2, Informative

    But how do you know that the Internet will not be born without military research? A lot of the technologies powering the Internet were not started from military research, such as, TCP/IP, HTML, Web browser, etc. The Internet could have born from civilian research projects.

  42. Re:this raises some interesting questions indeed . by mkldev · · Score: 4, Interesting
    With a little bit of effort, assuming the engine can be started and stopped at will and has reasonably accurate guidance, this could be used for other things... like replacing traffic helicopters over urban areas with relatively safe rocket-powered cameras that fly around over the city until they're low on fuel, then fly to an appropriate location and land for refueling.

    Before you say that this is nuts, think about this: helicopters are far more dangerous than any airplane. There have been a total of 21 deaths to date in U.S. commercial airplanes this year according to the NTSB. That's based on up to 150,000 flights per day.

    So far, the U.S. Military, has already seen 29 helicopter deaths (and 8 additional British casualties in one of those crashes), and at least one other minor crash with no fatalities, and this is not including any that resulted from being under fire. That's based on a few hundred flights per day in Iraq, so I'm guessing a few thousand worldwide. Oh, and that's total flights, not helicopter flights. I doubt the percentage of helicopter flights is particularly high... maybe a couple of hundred helicopter flights per day as a high estimate.

    That would make helicopters about 1,000 times as dangerous as airplanes. Lest you think this is a fluke of the way the military uses aircraft, the statistics on the crash rate of helicopters in Alaska should tell you otherwise. The only problem is that airplanes fly too fast for people to get a good view of what's going on in terms of ground traffic.

    Enter the cruise missile. Fly ten of them around, snapping pictures and shooting video clips and periodically dumping the footage back via 802.11b networks on the ground. Near-instant gratification, and without putting your staff at risk.

    Not to mention that if a blimp is cool, a missile must be... well, really cool. :-)

    --
    120 character sigs suck. Make it 250.
  43. open sourced missle guidance system by Muhammed+Absol · · Score: 2

    There's an open sourced missle guidance app called seeker that was made in the early 90s as a project at howell university. It was later used to guide p-30 rocket powered projectiles to a target some 450 yards away from launch point. The source is out there and easily googleable for. I wonder if it would apply for this project?

  44. Re:it's really not funny. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When you put money in R&D, you are paying for saleries.

    CAT, PET, MRI are all spin-offs of Nuclear Weapon design tools.

    Roads, Bridges and Schools, while are somewhat funded by the Federal Government are for the most part the resonsability of the State and Local Governments.

    There is a flier up at PSU of a cartoon in which the teacher is ranting that the US is going to start a war while Portland OR schools are having a funding problem with the implication that it's Washington's problem.

    It isn't.

    The problems with state budgets at this point are amplified by bad tax and monetary policies at the District, City, County, and State governments.

    Here in Oregon the state legislature spent $212,000 for new chairs while selling the old ones for .$77 each.

    Additionally, Oregon's legislators reportedly spent more than $500,000 of taxpayer money on newsletters and travel to resorts in Hawaii and Florida.

    When they found out they couldn't get $400,000 of new Thinkpads there was a near revolt.

    When a state gets money, they do stupid shit. I say spending it on DoD and NASA is alot better than pissing it away with things like the Big Dig. 5 years and 11 billion dollars late?

    Lets fund the Mob! Lets repair something.

    Throwing money at a problem caused by bad fiscal policy doesn't fix the problem.

    If you have someone with a credit card problem do you hand them another card?

  45. Who needs plans? by alizard · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The only secret about this that someone with the right skills or is willing to acquire them needs to know is that it can be done.

    As the $5K budget shows, this is within the range of an individual or small organization.

    I've been expecting something like this for the last several years, but I expected to find out about it on the news, i.e. somebody used it on somebody, not on the Web.

  46. Jurisdiction, my good man by ehintz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You see, the URL ending in .nz denotes New Zealand. Ashcroft has no jurisdiction there. Of course, if I were this fellow I wouldn't plan on any vacations to the states for a while, but frankly if I lived in a fair country such as New Zealand I'd be loath to waste my hard earned (and undervalued) dollars coming to this place. Seems to me that those in the know are considering escape.

    --
    ehintz
  47. Re:it's really not funny. by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is a reason for over building defense.

    At any given time 1/3 of your force in down for some reason.

    Aircraft Carriers are at 1/8 of the force is down at any given time.

    Fighters are around 1/4-1/3.

    Bombers and non-nuclear ships are at 1/3.

    If you need 10,000 Sidewinder missiles, you need to buy around 14,000 so you have 10,000 that work.

    When dealing with nukes, it's different.

    There are tactical, reserve, stockpile, strategic stockpile and strategic weapons.

    There are formulas of what needs to be done, how many weapons it takes to eliminate a target and what weapons are where.

    For instance. The SLBMs on the Trident subs are for blowing the hell out of silo complexes and railroad networks that might have a rail ICBM system. The Minuteman missiles are for C3 (command/control/communication) and the manned bombers are for recall up to the point of a drop. If you are going to nuke the DPRK you send the manned bombers so you can recall if there is a breakthrough at the last minute.

    Now you have all these systems, you have to build extras because you have to assume systems will be down and that in a war, systems will be lost to attrition.

    And targets do require more than one nuke. For instance, I recall that your average Minuteman II/III silo during the Cold War had 5 MIRVs targeted on it. That was because they needed to get three on the silo and thier CEP was so high that they needed to chuck 5 over to get 3 close enough to kill the silo.

    The United States does not have the ability to kill everyone 50 times over. NBC weapons are bad, but not that effective.

  48. Re:Good luck by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Perhaps a short description of the actual process involved will illustrate your point as well.

    As you say, you could use a PIC. You can't get something as accurate as a tomahawk this way; you will have to settle for hitting a building as opposed to flying it through a window of a building. (Since GPS is supposed to be accurate to about 15 meters or so, worst case, with SA off, and most buildings are more than 30 meters in at least one dimension, hitting the building is pretty reasonable.)

    The craft will of course not always be making a straight, level flight. There are environmental issues. But a course correction every second or two should be sufficient.

    The GPS can deliver hyper-accurate time, and fairly accurate position. From these things one can compute one's airspeed and the direction one is heading. It is then a simple matter to determine which direction one needs to turn to correct one's course.

    One would plot a series of waypoints with some sort of computer software, possibly some sort of freely available GIS package, using maps available from the USGS. Once the craft is launched it will immediately begin determining which way it must turn to head to the waypoint. The little gyro replacement will provide straight and level flight when desired. Servos are trivial to control with off the shelf hardware, like a basic stamp for example, it's nice to use a dedicated microcontroller just for servo control so you don't have to tie up your primary microprocessor doing something that silly. You could also just build some custom hardware for it since they're pulse rate (or pulse width?) controlled. It would be a relatively uncomplicated task.

    Now, a tomahawk missile is capable of recognizing its target by image, and it can dodge things in its path. Obviously it has significantly more processing power than the machine we're describing. However, my point was hitting a building is easy, not flying through a window, again, as the tomahawk supposedly can. (They claim a 1 meter square hit box.) All we really need to do is follow waypoints, which we can precompute on our launch control system. As the comment above this one points out, doing so will be amazingly trivial. I suspect the poster mentioned a PIC chip because they are insanely cheap and they speak RS232 serial with nothing more than something to raise voltages, for which there are several standard solutions readily available. This allows trivial interfacing to the GPS. IIRC the Basic Stamp also provides RS232, so a pic with enough legs could speak serial to both the servo controller (at a suitably high speed) and the GPS. You only need TX and RX for each connection, because the only other connection to do about 19.2k on a good day is a ground. With four wires to the servo controller you could do higher transfer rates, or reliably get 19.2k, which should be plenty.

    In other words, using GPS makes this fairly trivial. The only real defense against it is GPS jamming, since it will be small and reasonably radar-transparent to the point where if it is flying low enough the only way you will spot it is visually, and good luck to you on that front.

    The next step beyond this is using radar or laser imaging to find the ground and various obstacles, and apply enough processing power to the problem to make it able to dodge trees, phone poles, aircraft (unless they're your target), and so on. That does make the problem dramatically harder, and raises the cost of the electronics by several orders of magnitude, but of course it is still within the ability and budget of the more determined and wealthy hobbyists. This necessarily means that a hostile organization with some fairly lucrative funding source, such as drugs or oil (similar compounds from a financial standpoint) could put whole fleets of them into the air.

    The next step after that would be inertial tracking so that it could still operate when GPS is jammed. After that, you want to do EMP hardening, which is probably more expensive than everything else put together.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  49. Re:it's really not funny. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Because that's what socialism is. It's the state sponsoring people who don't have jobs.

    Maybe you haven't been paying much attention, but job creation is one of the major arguments for our ridiculously large defense budget: even hardware that the military doesn't want is hard to kill because representatives from those districts are worried that out-of-work defense workers will cost them reelection.

    If you define "socialism" as "the state sponsoring people who don't have jobs", then the US is the biggest socialist country that ever existed, and defense employees are the biggest recipients of government handouts (followed closely by farmers). And perhaps it's time we put a stop to that kind of waste and "socialism".

  50. Re:He talked to military folks, eh? by zulux · · Score: 2, Funny


    *Techdude writes on his keyboard : "shutdown -h now" (or similar command)*


    Thankfully it wasen't Windown

    *Techdude clicks Start->My Computer->My GPS Systems->North America

    *Clippy "It's looks like your shutting down your GPS system"

    --

    Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

  51. Re:this raises some interesting questions indeed . by GlassHeart · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I doubt you could appease Kim Chong-il, Timothy McVeigh, Bin Laden, and the Unibomber all at the same time

    First of all, they're not all terrorists, so there are different ways to engage each threat. Let's assume you're talking about terrorists.

    They need a friendly environment in which to hide and train. This is easy today, with many people hating the US. The hatred can be tempered by deeds: perceived sensitivity and fairness in dealing with Palestine; transparent and fair rebuilding of Iraq. Basically, improve the chances that a righteous Arab would call the cops on the terrorists living next door.

    They need money. People angry at the US give money to terrorists. Decrease this anger, and they are left with a few independently wealthy fundamentalists, whose assets are much easier to track down and seize.

    They need weapons. You might be aware that the US is one of the biggest exporters of weapons. You don't have to cut it out, but you do want to be more careful who you sell them to.

  52. So why aren't these attacks happening? by Goonie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It seems we have a bit of a paradox here:

    1. Terrorists want to kill as many Americans/Israelis/whomever as possible.
    2. Anybody with access to the internet, basic levels of clue, and moderate amounts of cash, can screw together cruise missiles, dirty bombs, chemical weapons, etc etc, in complete secrecy.
    3. Chemical weapons, cruise missiles etc. are an effective way of killing people.
    4. Intelligence/police agencies are incapable of preventing such attacks before they occur.
    5. Therefore, given the above, lots of people should be dead through cruise missile/chemical weapon/insert diabolical nasty weapon here attacks by terrorists.

    But the above hasn't happened. With the spectacular exception of September 11 (which wasn't achieved through high-tech means), the best terrorists have been able to do is conventional bombing, and they haven't been able to kill that many people, even Israelis.

    So, what's the problem with the above argument?

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    1. Re:So why aren't these attacks happening? by praksys · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is an old joke about economists that goes like this:

      Economist A: "Look there's $50 on the ground."
      Economist B: "Don't bother to pick it up, it's not worth the effort."
      Economist A: "How can you be so sure?"
      Economist B: "If it was worth the effort then someone would have done it already."

      The opportunity, and probably the motive, required for the September 11 attacks has been available for decades, but it took a while for the right people to get the idea and put it into action. The possibility of building cruise missiles has only been around for a few years (cheap ones anyway). The fact that it hasn't been done yet proves very little.

    2. Re:So why aren't these attacks happening? by kcelery · · Score: 2, Funny

      Their new plan seems to be sending people with SARS to cough downtown. Cost less then $5,000.

  53. Yeah? by SystematicPsycho · · Score: 2, Funny

    Do you guys really think that countries in the world don't have a clue on how to build cruise misslies?

    Comrad - slashdot has posted someone elses article on how to build cruise missiles.

    El Presidente - eh? well you got on that browser and dl that material and have it sent to our defense division immediately. This is just the breakthrough we've been looking for,

    Comrad - Si Si!

    --
    Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
  54. Re:it's really not funny. by Chris+Tucker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So atam sez:

    (stupid shit about $600 toilet seats)

    OK, listen up.

    It wasn't a toilet seat of the type you sit your fat ass on.

    It was a fiberglass unit that incorporated a toilet seat, while covering the entire toilet mechanism that was installed on an aircraft.

    The DoD bought ~50 of them (possibly fewer) and each and every one of them HAD to be essentially hand made.

    Why? Because automating the procedure would have increased the unit cost by an order of magnitude.

    You want to know where all those $500 hammers come from? The PAPERWORK, that's where.

    Your head would explode if you knew of the obscene amounts of paperwork required for a government entity to buy anything.

    And you have to pay the people who fill out the forms and someone has to supply that money to pay the bureaucrats who fill out those forms.

    --
    Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
  55. Tried and Failed Once Before by CodeBuster · · Score: 4, Informative

    The United States Navy sponsored a test project with a ~$500,000 budget in late 1998 to see if an independent team could build a reliable cruise missile weapon using off the shelf technology. I suppose that since the project failed they quietly cancelled it or declared it a success (since the independent team failed to develop a useful weapon) and ended it. Things may be different now but $5,000 probably won't be enough to build an effective military grade cruise missile, especially when one considers the advanced counter-measures employed by the United States and other Navies. I doubt that a $5,000 homemade cruise missile would defeat the Aegis system employed by the United States Navy. I was able to find only this small snippet of information on the web regarding the whole affair:

    missile defense

    "14 Apr 98 The Kraken cruise missile built by the BMDO Countermeasures Hands-On Project crashed on take off from Point Mugu, California. The Kraken was built to test the ability of a rest-of-world country to develop this type of weapon."

  56. Yer right by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    (1)people should be studying for their MBA(2)'s and try hard to get football scholarships instead of wast(3)eing the(4)y're time trying to learn about the world.

    No kidding.

  57. Re:Anyone know how scalable these are? by SEWilco · · Score: 2, Funny
    Can you build a rocket engine without a turbopump?

    Yes, you just let the helium flow through the reactor core and it tends to expand through the wider exhaust tubes beyond.

    Yes, you just have to use a piston pump.

    Yes, you just have to launch far enough up for the ion stream to not get contaminated.

    Yes, you just make sure the intake valve can slap shut fast enough for most of the pulse to be forced backward.

    Yes, you just throw the nuclear propellant fast enough so it detonates at the right distance from the blast plate before you fall too far.

    Yes, you just use metal wicks to draw the liquid oxydizer and fuel into the combustion chamber.

    Yes, you just make sure that you get enough stored energy from the previous pulse so your lasers have enough for several attempts at igniting the next fusion pellets.

    Yes, you just weld a bunch of ramjets together.

    Yes, you just pinch the gathered plasma into several small streams before forcing it together in the large heating chamber.

    Yes, you just have to have enough springs and golf balls.

    Yes, you just have to spin the pinwheel emitter fast enough so the ignition cups have enough fuel before they are in the rearward position and ignited.

    Yes, you just have to wriggle the handle on the pump fast enough.

  58. Re:A couple notes: by gerardrj · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There would be nothing illegal about building a cruise missile. The thing is simply a small experimental/hobby aircraft.
    Legal issues would not arise until you armed the thing and used it as a weapon. Cruise missiles don't just randomly take off at self-selected targets and explode.

    I've never heard of consumer GPS systems disabling themselves at high speeds and can't locate anything in the specs at the major vendors, do you have a reference for that?

    Of course, it's irrelevant to the task at hand, there are plenty of GPS recievers with NAV-OUT ports that are right at home at these speeds. Plus, GPS is just the most accessible of the nav aids out there. The FAA has hundreds of beacons scattered around the country, their exact LAT, LON and ALT are published for anyone to use. Same with costal waterway navigaion beacons via the Coast Guard. And then there's simple direction finding with any commercial broadcasting antenna. (Missile: fly to the strongest radio source at this frequency (choose a station that broascasts from downtown), then circle until you run out of fuel.
    Navigating via these methods is well documented, and the equipment involved could be (in many cases) cooked up at home with some wire and transistors; unlike the more complex GPS receivers and their very sensitive timing systems.

    --
    Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
  59. smartest dumb person by {tele}machus_*1 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Given the hypersensitive climate in the U.S. today, why would one try to build a weapon of mass destruction, just to prove it could be done. I can see it now in the CNN headline: "President Bush declared today that Bruce Simpson is a threat to national security and bombed his house."

  60. Overreaction by Americans by ikekrull · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A 'cruise missile' without an explosive payload is just a model jet with a sophisticated guidance system.

    Perhaps the term 'missile' is a term that carries a negative connotation, but semantics should really not affect the fundamental issue that it is OK to experiment with aeronautics and electronics in your back yard because its your back yard and we (well, Bruce does) live in a moe-or-less free society.

    Personally, i would think a more interesting goal would be to build something akin to a Predator UAV than a cruise missile, but that is just me.

    John Carmack is trying to build a fucking InterContinental Ballistic Missile in his backyard, but everyone seems to love that project.

    --
    I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
  61. Re:this raises some interesting questions indeed . by Licinius · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to NTSB records, with search criteria from dates 1/1/02 through 1/1/03 there were 72 helicopter accidents (report status as final), with only two of those accidents including fatalities (three fatalities total). I dunno about you, but that seems like a pretty decent record. It's not really practical to compare civil aviation for airplanes to military helicopter operations in wartime conditions.

    It'd be far more difficult and expensive to maintain and operate dozens of rocket powered aircraft as camera platforms than it does now for helicopters and planes.

    Yeah, unmanned aerial vehicles are probably the future, but not rocket powered cruise missiles. Piston powered and turbine powered aircraft are much more efficient than rockets.

    --
    My other SIG is a 9mm.
  62. So it becomes... by tius · · Score: 2, Insightful

    painfully obvious that anyone with half a mind and a bit of ingenuity can create a decent weapon. What's left? Perhaps we all stop being gready sods and start treating others in the world with respect...i.e. give them a fair shake.

    The security issue is a classic excuse to eat ones own tail. Secrecy solves nothing as basic information and some intelligence is all that's required to come up with some new and nasty way to off your fellow human.

    So, how do we manage to do group therapy on the national scale? It's obviously required. The fear, the paranoia, the willingness to become more ignorant and let others deal with your "freedom" is a sure sign that the island is sinking. Get help...now before you do something that you regret. Oh wait, that's already happened....drats!

  63. Re:this raises some interesting questions indeed . by russh347 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Commercial aircraft operate in a relatively safe environment.

    Combat helicopters spend a lot of their time close to the ground, hiding behind ridge-lines, trees, buildings, medium sized rocks, tall tarantulas, ... In this environment, the pilot's attention is OUTSIDE the cockpit. He doesn't get to look at his instruments nearly as often as other pilots. If he did, he'd run into something in seconds. Now add night vision goggles, which kills a lot of depth perception. I have a lot of respect for those rotor-heads.

    You simply cannot compare commercial aviation with combat avaition. If you want a comparison, you need to look at commercial rotorcraft vs. commercial aircraft... or some other apples & apples comparison.

  64. Re:this raises some interesting questions indeed . by mgoff · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are you actually trying to compare accident statistics between commercial fixed-wing aircraft and military helecopters? Don't you think that the operating parameters are a little different? The very nature of the operations military helecopters undertake makes them more risky-- not necessarily the fact that they are helecopters. I won't argue that helecopters aren't more dangerous, but I'd say the bigger danger is that they're flying in close formation at low altitudes.

    BTW, unmanned aircraft are not permitted to fly over populated areas.