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DSL Hardware for Wiring Condos?
Condo-Netwerk asks: "I'm trying to prepare a proposal for my condo building to be our own DSL provider. With 160 units, we should be able to get a T1 and keep the price fairly low. But what's the up-front cost? Which hardware should we use? What do we need to know about Copper Mountain, Avidia, etc. to do our due diligence prior to selecting hardware? I'm also helping a friend spec cabling for a new 30-unit condo building he's putting up; he wants to pull cat5 and split a DSL line from the phone room to each unit. Caveats? Experiences? Is it better to use cat6 or fiber?"
Go wireless!
Here's my advice, for what it is worth:
1) Don't put DSL to each unit - pull CAT-5 and run Ethernet. Your residents will have a much easier time getting hardware than with DSL, and your costs will be less.
2) Pull the wire to a common router closet.
3) One port per unit
4) Lock down the ports that aren't being used.
5) Use DHCP to assign addresses.
6) Set up your own caching server. I would recommend using Squid.
7) Force all outbound port 25 (SMTP) through your mail server.
8) Run a virus scanner on your mail server. Scan all incoming AND outgoing mail.
9) Don't route the Microsoft file sharing ports or Apple Rendezvous ports between units.
10) Insist customers keep their machines virus free. Disconnect any who don't IMMEDIATELY.
11) Write into your rental contracts that you ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for maintaining your customer's machines or security - if they are scared let them run their own firewall.
12) Offer your own space, accessible to your users, with virus scanner updates, MS patches, and so on. Encourage them to use that to save bandwidth.
13) Routinely sniff around for WAPs. Handle them as you see fit - disconnect, or verify they are set up sanely. Don't ignore them.
Many will disagree with some of my points (esp. 7 and 9). Ask yourself this: do I enjoy being blacklisted for spamming?
www.eFax.com are spammers
Make sure you add a squid cache at the head end, you wouldn't want all your bandwidth being used up by constant goatse.cx reloads.
Trolling is a art,
Actually, at the camp I work at, they're building a big new building and wiring it all for internet access. My first response would be go wireless, but since that isn 't always feasible, I'd just say go the simple and tried and true route w/ cat 5. I mean...come on, can you go wrong with cat5?
The anti-salmon
Seriously - that's the first thing that came to mind.
If only 25% of people in your complex want the service, depending on which provider you're getting with, installation and continued service could be a shaky proposition.
Sig master! Sig master! Sig... faster?!
Depending on the likely residents, I'd be a bit worried about sharing a T1 (1.5 Mbps) between 160 units. Even if you figure that at peak only 10% of the units are doing bandwidth-hungry operations (media streaming, large file downloads), that still leaves only around 100 kbps per unit, which is pretty bad. If 20% try for 'heavy' access at once, they'd be better off using dialup. In other words, 30 teenage kids or similarly high-bandwidth users could crater your entire scheme.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
The costs involved with the hardware (tut systems) was pretty substantial. The owner of the property whent ahead with a MUCH simpler plan (I recommended) of putting a simple 24-port switch in the basement of each dwelling (24 room units) and daisy-chaining the switches together with 100MB fiber. We had to run CAT5 to each unit, but the costs of that (less than $100/drop) were cheaper than a TUT Systems client device (around $165) for each unit. In the end, we had one switch plugged into an upstream carrier. Turning on or off the units' internet access was as easy as telnetting to the switch and shutting down the port.
The 100MB was MORE than enough for the 1.5MB internet pipe, and as an added bonus the dwellings could game with each other on a true 100MB LAN!
LOAD "SIG",8,1
LOADING...
READY.
RUN
DSL was invented to provide a solution to a single specific problem (lack of quantity and quality of copper for long distance runs from the CO to the home). DSL makes some tradeoffs, including very expensive hardware, in most cases low upstream, and in many cases interference in the audio portion of the line that has to be filtered at each extension. If you're wiring an apartment or even a small neighborhood, why not consider pulling a second cat5/6 and providing regular 100mbit ethernet? Your cost dissolves down to a managed switch (and that can be eliminated if you're willing to manually plug/unplug ports from the switch), and the customer end becomes whatever cheap ethernet card they'd have to have anyway to plug the DSL modem in. For the fortune you save in DSLAMs and other expensive telco grade hardware you could probably buy everyone who posts a comment in this article a pizza.
-Dan
Anyway, the advantages of DSL should be obvious: no new cable needs to be laid. You can just install the DSL equipment at the central phone switch of the condos, and then give each resident a DSL modem. Much simpler, much cheaper.
But I agree -- a T1 isn't going to cut it for 160 heavy users. If you only expect moderate use, you might be able to squeak by. I'd combine multiple T1s (better redundency) or spring for a T3 (nominally cheaper per megabit). The choice is yours.
-Shylock
Statistically speaking, there's a 99.998% chance that my IQ is higher than yours. Get over it.
As for what I would do, don't go DSL unless you have to. DSL is only needed if you are really going over the limit of Ethernet and you want the rate limitiing built into most DSL boxes. It ain't like slapping in a Cisco router or your linux router in there.
The sizing should be in the 20 to 40 users per T1 and then you have to do load balancing between them - more fun and games.
And for your friend who is cabling his building project, he should put both CAT5+/6 and fiber. Only expect to use the copper for now but at only 50 bucks a unit to rough it in its worth it when you really want to do it.
Wiring is the kind of thing best left to people who deal with it every day. I'd get a cabling company to give you a quote on running CAT5 to every unit and instaling a patch panel in some closet. They'll have the right tools to pull the cable, will be able to test it and will be responsible for fixing if anything isn't working.
I really wouldn't recommend pulling the cable yourself unless you really know what you're doing. BTW, depending on where it's pulled, it might need to be plenum or riser rated, and there may additional fire/code regulations for your area. You may need a license for cabling - but the cabling people would know all that.
grisha.org
It's amazing how far out of their way people will go to support Microsoft's crap. More than half of your list is Microsoft specific. Realize also that #10, " Insist customers keep their machines virus free. Disconnect any who don't IMMEDIATELY." eliminates the need for most of the other M$ virus precations, especially the silly M$ patch server which could get you a BSA visit. Why bother when you could recomend Linux or a Mac?
All small ISPs are going to be blacklisted by AOL/MSNBC regardless of how well or poorly you treat your users.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Ah, but a T1 is guarenteed bandwidth, and will have service level agreements in place.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
My apartment complex is its own ISP. They installed ethernet in their buildings in 1996, starting with two T-1 lines.
With approximately 1000 total residents for all the buildings, this setup worked fairly well at first because not very many people had computers that were network-ready.
Around late 1999, the network began slowing down. A year later, streaming video was impossible, and by late 2001, I was better off using a dialup. It was BAD.
About a year ago, they added two more T-1s, and it's been smooth sailing since. There are about 400 people in my building, maybe 500 in the next, and 100 or so in the other places. The network is almost always fast. Obviously this is due to adding the extra bandwidth. One can assume that the user-base has reached its saturation by now (almost everyone has a computer with a NIC, since it's a student-oriented place), so they probably won't have any more speed problems.
They banned Kazaa and Morpheus, and apparently that helped. They don't give you an e-mail address or server space. They simply provide network connectivity. It's actually not a bad deal -- at $100/year, it's as fast an any cable modem or DSL connection.
I think two T-1s would probably be alright for only 160 units. And I might recommend Cat-5E wiring. We just rewired my work's building with about 500 data ports, using 5E. Everything is gigabit ready. Sure, 100-base-T is fast, but are you gonna want to rewire the whole damn place in five years when you want gig? Probably not. It cost us $120,000 for those 500 data ports and about 300 voice ports. Plan ahead!
Globe199
What's your Outage / backup strategy?
:)
You could run the entire block off a low-end Cisco router, but are you budgeting for a Cisco service contract and / or a 'hot spare' router?
How about line monitoring and alerts? Backups / service contracts for your switches? Environmental systems to keep your equipment closet nice and frosty? Factored in the electrical costs of that to your business plan?
Who's going to support the system? What do you do if a switch craps out at 3am? Running a community ISP can be fun, but it's *less* fun if you've not thought of these things before you start.
Check out Dlink's site. You can wire the individual buildings with 10/100 and then use fiber to connect them to a central router for the T1. The prices are down in the range of reasonable for the switch that have 10/100 and a pair of fiber ports. You'd have plenty of speed and distance wouldn't be much of an issue.
Run cat5 if possible. Before you do that, I assume the condos have cat3 for phone? If so, how are they wired? It could be possible to use the existing cable to run on a 10 meg backbone, dirt cheap.
:
.11b wifi points for quick setup, rollouts to early adopters, and as backup gear
You also need to think of other possible options.
A big one, Voice over IP. With a 100 meg backbone in place, you could replace all the traditional phone service as well as providing internet.
(some legal issues here to look at though).
I'd implement it as follows
1. Do a SURVEY of interested tenants. Include VOIP as an option.
2. check Cat3 option, use it if possible.
3. Get some
when something fails... (it would really depend on how many IDF's you are going to place)
4. Plan your IDF locations carefully. Remember environmental and power factors.
5. Use the WIFI AP's to go from IDF to MDF on a temporary basis until you can rollout a fiber backbone.
6. Monitor and then put Rate-limiting into effect for the people who abuse the service, i.e. mp3's and warez out to the outside world.
7. Make clear service terms so the users know what to expect and what not to do.
8. Someone will have to monitor/troubleshoot this service. If you don't have someone, an option would be contract out with a Local ISP, or
perhaps a local computer consultant.
Finally, for those not interested in paying a monthly fee, offer LAN access for free, (to get them hooked as it were)
Without knowing more details the above is all I can give you. Hope it works out!
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
A lot of good posts about the hardware and connection, but don't forget your EULA. Some things to consider:
:-)
1) Have a good privacy policy
You may need to fall back on it if the authorities (or the RIAA) come knocking for your logs. If they badger you into turning them over without a court order, you could be in one of those stories about the criminals sueing because they got caught.
2) Look at the big ISP's agreements for ideas
You may see something you hadn't thought of.
3) Lawyers are much more cost effective when used to prevent you from being sue, rather than defend you after the fact. Think about having one draft or review your agreement.
Not trying to scare you, just make sure you're covered if the guy on the third floor turns out to be a pedophile, terrorist, or (gasp) file trader.
666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
Obviously the technofreaks out there don't have a clue about cost or project management. You need to run DSL or HPNA to each condo for management and liability reduction (yeah, lets run ethernet so we can all sniff what our neighbors are surfing). With DSL (or we've had great luck with existing infrastructure running HPNA) you get complete control over who gets what type of bandwidth. The need to get a DSL or HPNA end-device will keep most of the moochers off your network. Let the condo owner decide how much bandwidth they want to pay for. As to one T1 line not being enough for 160 condo's, I'd put one in and see what your subscriber base is, you can always add another and split your user base by IP (another great reason to use a mini-DSLAM or HPNA Switch for distribution). Most companies run around 100-150 desktops on a single T1, so clamp streaming media and FTP to a reasonable level and most people will be happy. Ignore the Slashdot regulars (cat 6, fiber, WiFi - get real), they live in their own (mostly imaginary) world.
I'd just say go the simple and tried and true route w/ cat 5. I mean...come on, can you go wrong with cat5?
I agree totally with those suggesting using 100 Mbps Ethernet over Cat5. That's definitely the way to go. (Use DSL only if your condo is a subdivision rather than a building.)
One caveat: If the Cat5 is run in anything other than conduit - especially if it's run in an air duct - spring the extra bucks for "plenum" rated wire. In a fire the ordinary stuff may emit toxic gas. Plenum-rated wire is designed to retrofit old buildings by stringing it through the air ducts, and uses a more expensive plastic that does NOT emit toxic gas (or nowhere near as much) and also doesn't spread fire.
One other item: Check what your building's phone system is already wired with. There may already BE a 4-pair cat5 or cat5e to each unit. And if the phone company's demark point is the phone closet rather than the unit's phone junction box you folk OWN the wire. So if a unit has any two pair free you can use 'em and not have to string new stuff.
Note that 10/100 ethernet only uses two of the four pair in the bundle. Traditionally it's pair 2 (white/orange) and 3 (white/green), leaving 1 (white/blue) and 4 (white/brown) free for other things - such as a second ethernet drop, one or two phone lines, or power distribution to distant hubs and/or low-power equipment.
But the pair are all the same (except for the color code). So you can use any two pair for the ethernet feed, and sort it out at a junction at the far end. You can generally splice 'em if you're careful to keep the lengths of the two conductors in the pair equal and twist 'em back together afterward. (Don't sweat getting the twist rate to match exactly. Just avoid having a big untwisted gap with the wires hanging apart.)
Run one drop to the unit and have the unit's owner add a hub (or his own firewall machine) if he wants to run more than one box.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
This doesn't pertain to whether you should use DSL or Ethernet, but rather is a few things I've always thought ISPs should do. (I've had this almost life-long goal of starting an ISP for some reason...)
I own a domain, and use it primarily for the unlimited mail aliases. Every site I go to gets sitename@mydomain.com, which just forwards to my main address. If they start spamming, I can tell exactly who it is, and redirect (or block entirely) the mail. Why not give each customer a subdomain (customer.condo.com) where they get, say, 5 POP boxes, but unlimited aliases? Used effectively, this could *really* fight spam. (This is venturing more offtopic, but Cpanel seems to be the most popular web-based control panel; you could provide customers with some webspace and e-mail access. It's easy to use, but even great for geeks. You can get licenses for like $40/month, or possibly less.)
Another thing I've always thought ISPs should offer was NAT access. Rather than getting an external IP, they'd get an internal one and use your proxy. It'd save you from needing as many IPs, and it gives them great security -- unless you go out of your way to set it up, no one can connect to them. Of course you shouldn't force this upon people, but some people might *want* NAT. Offer it as a 'privacy' plan. (Heh, you could probably even charge extra, lol)
Something like Squid could really speed things up, especially if you only have a T1.
The last "If I ran an ISP..." item regards DNS. Maybe it's because Adelphia is so crappy (they have like 5 DNS servers, and whatever you have as primary ALWAYS goes down, so you're re-ordering the nameservers several times a week to make it work at all...), but I ended up using OpenNIC, which essentially is a 'democratic' TLD assigner; they have a lot of new TLDs not supported by 'real' DNS. (And, of course, lookups for regular TLDs work, too.) Not sure if you want to make it standard, but I'd be way impressed if an ISP gave me the choice of 'regular' DNS or OpenNIC DNS servers to use.
Oh! Don't forget to do your part and setup a good firewall. Another seemingly uncommon thing I've always thought ISPs should do was to do *good* egress filtering: filter traffic *leaving* your network too. I start to rant about this idea every time I read about a big DoS attack; if ISPs were more careful about what leaves their network, a lot of DoS attacks would simply get dropped at the attacker's ISP.
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suwain_2
First off, I do this type of thing for a living, as a consultant to the CLEC and ISP trades, so I know a thing or two about the DSL market. Please, please, ignore the consensus of the Slashdot crowd who want you to pull Ethernet! They imagine that they'd want the better speed, but as a provider, you have to face reality. DSL has real advantages:
1) It lets you control the top speed. I suggest that the top speed to a user be less than half of your feed speed. A company I work very closely with has almost 200 DSL lines in a luxury condominium. They feed it with only two T1s. That's quite adequate! They have to pay for that bandwidth -- backbone ISP service isn't cheap, and the T1 loops into the condo aren't free either. Of course they only provide 700 kbps service. Sure, people might like more, but the competition is dial-up, and price matters.
2) DSL tolerates long wire. It can go a few miles, after all -- even a sprawling condo complex is a short hop for DSL. Ethernet tends to be pickier.
3) ADSL can share wire with telephone. You might be able to piggyback onto the phone wire. (A CLEC can; whether you can is a different issue.)
4) DSL is cheap! Lots of providers tanked, leaving good working gear on the secondary market. A 500-line Lucent Stinger can be had for $12k; a 200-line ADSL DSLAM is maybe half that. SDSL needs its own wire pair (can't share phone like ADSL) but the DSLAMs are a glut on the market, much cheaper than even that. Check eBay, telephone.com, etc.
I'd be happy to talk more about this offline (isdnip at netscape dot net)....
Here are my 2 cents worth. I've been in and around this stuff for 26 years (and yes, I do have, what used to be prematurely, grey hair):
1. Put in CAT5, or even CAT6 if you can afford it. Put in twice as much as you think is reasonable. Get it certified and tested. Next time you think you need just those couple of extra pair, you won't regret it. The big hit in any infrastructure installation is labor - you are going to spend about as much for labor to have two CAT6 cables pulled in to a jack as you would pay to have one CAT5.
2. NAT would be a pain in the ass for your users if they want to do anything more complex than web browsing and mail. This sounds like a multi-year project - what do you think people are going to be doing with the Internet in two years? Doing SIP telephony, H.323 multimedia, etc. etc. through a NAT connection borders on impossible for an average user.
3. No matter what you think the skill level is of your users, cut it in half. People seem to get dumber than dirt when they get home at night. I have personal experience - I'm living in a residential compound in Kazakhstan right now. I spend my days working for the Man, nights dealing with residents who stuck floppy disks to their fridges with magnets.
4. All the cool stuff like web cache, proxy servers, even community web sites are very nice. With every single item, just think about who is going to support those things after you make your fortune and move to a grass hut in Tonga? KISS in all things.
5. On the subject of support - residents are 24/7/365. When the Smith family can't have that video conference with Grandma on Christmas morning, who they gonna call? Set up a well understood service level agreement that every resident signs. Make it simple, but clear. The rule of thumb is that if it can be explained in an elevator between floors, it's about right.
6. Fiber isn't that expensive, and there are some cool devices available now for doing lots of fun things with it. Investigate using it for house distribution. In 5 years when those 2mb DSL connections become passe', and folks start wanting those 10-20mb connections, they will look at your portrait on their mantle and smile.
7. Here's a turnaround for you: Have you thought about cable modems? Not only can you do a few channels for high speed data, you can also do digital TV distribution, and telephone distribution. What if the folks had a TV channel for the community front gate, so they could see when the mother-in-law is coming?
Have fun - this if obviously a passion for you. On those all-nighters when you are trying to solve some stupid routing problem, remember it was YOUR idea.
Andy
"You can't have everything. Where would you keep it?" -- Steven Wright