DSL Hardware for Wiring Condos?

Condo-Netwerk asks: "I'm trying to prepare a proposal for my condo building to be our own DSL provider. With 160 units, we should be able to get a T1 and keep the price fairly low. But what's the up-front cost? Which hardware should we use? What do we need to know about Copper Mountain, Avidia, etc. to do our due diligence prior to selecting hardware? I'm also helping a friend spec cabling for a new 30-unit condo building he's putting up; he wants to pull cat5 and split a DSL line from the phone room to each unit. Caveats? Experiences? Is it better to use cat6 or fiber?"

Comments

My advice

[wowbagger]

Here's my advice, for what it is worth:

1) Don't put DSL to each unit - pull CAT-5 and run Ethernet. Your residents will have a much easier time getting hardware than with DSL, and your costs will be less.
2) Pull the wire to a common router closet.
3) One port per unit
4) Lock down the ports that aren't being used.
5) Use DHCP to assign addresses.
6) Set up your own caching server. I would recommend using Squid.
7) Force all outbound port 25 (SMTP) through your mail server.
8) Run a virus scanner on your mail server. Scan all incoming AND outgoing mail.
9) Don't route the Microsoft file sharing ports or Apple Rendezvous ports between units.
10) Insist customers keep their machines virus free. Disconnect any who don't IMMEDIATELY.
11) Write into your rental contracts that you ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for maintaining your customer's machines or security - if they are scared let them run their own firewall.
12) Offer your own space, accessible to your users, with virus scanner updates, MS patches, and so on. Encourage them to use that to save bandwidth.
13) Routinely sniff around for WAPs. Handle them as you see fit - disconnect, or verify they are set up sanely. Don't ignore them.

Many will disagree with some of my points (esp. 7 and 9). Ask yourself this: do I enjoy being blacklisted for spamming?

Re:My advice

[Meniconi,Nando]

Additionally, be prepared to deal with "concerned parents" asking you to police their children activity over the net.

Re:Why DSL?

[Ron Harwood]

Seriously. Wireless or wired ethernet... why add in the complexity of the DSL hardware?

Unless you absolutely need to use the existing copper or something - in which case a DSL solution would work nicely... ...but since you're able to run wire - go with 100Mbps ethernet to each unit... and if you have to control access do it with a patch panel... ;)

Does everyone want it?

[Rumbler]

Seriously - that's the first thing that came to mind.

If only 25% of people in your complex want the service, depending on which provider you're getting with, installation and continued service could be a shaky proposition.

Re:Does everyone want it?

[DDX_2002]

Well, if it's a condo, unless 50% (or whatever your condo bylaws say) of the people at the meeting vote for it, it ain't happening in the first place.

Man, I wouldn't trust a condo board with something like providing me internet connectivity for love nor money... I don't feel like putting network issues up for a popular vote or trusting the condo board to "get it" when it's time to allocate funds for equipment, maintenance, etc. Unless you're going to hire somebody to maintain it, or get yourself a contract, do you really want to be the free tech support guy for *160* users who know where you live.

I looked at this about a year ago...

[eric2hill]

The costs involved with the hardware (tut systems) was pretty substantial. The owner of the property whent ahead with a MUCH simpler plan (I recommended) of putting a simple 24-port switch in the basement of each dwelling (24 room units) and daisy-chaining the switches together with 100MB fiber. We had to run CAT5 to each unit, but the costs of that (less than $100/drop) were cheaper than a TUT Systems client device (around $165) for each unit. In the end, we had one switch plugged into an upstream carrier. Turning on or off the units' internet access was as easy as telnetting to the switch and shutting down the port.

The 100MB was MORE than enough for the 1.5MB internet pipe, and as an added bonus the dwellings could game with each other on a true 100MB LAN!

Why not run ethernet?

[danielgast]

DSL was invented to provide a solution to a single specific problem (lack of quantity and quality of copper for long distance runs from the CO to the home). DSL makes some tradeoffs, including very expensive hardware, in most cases low upstream, and in many cases interference in the audio portion of the line that has to be filtered at each extension. If you're wiring an apartment or even a small neighborhood, why not consider pulling a second cat5/6 and providing regular 100mbit ethernet? Your cost dissolves down to a managed switch (and that can be eliminated if you're willing to manually plug/unplug ports from the switch), and the customer end becomes whatever cheap ethernet card they'd have to have anyway to plug the DSL modem in. For the fortune you save in DSLAMs and other expensive telco grade hardware you could probably buy everyone who posts a comment in this article a pizza.

-Dan

Let someone in the business do it

[jj_johny]

I researched this for a business proposal and found out that there were already a bunch of companies in my area that do this type of work. Although you might find it fun, interesting and cheaper, it will quickly escalate into lots of crap and no payback for you. Yeah, everyone else will be happy but you will be left with a lot of headaches and renewed respect for the phone company - imagine that. Yeah find a little ISP who wants to do it and don't get yourself in the thankless position of getting screwed by your neighbors.

As for what I would do, don't go DSL unless you have to. DSL is only needed if you are really going over the limit of Ethernet and you want the rate limitiing built into most DSL boxes. It ain't like slapping in a Cisco router or your linux router in there.

The sizing should be in the 20 to 40 users per T1 and then you have to do load balancing between them - more fun and games.

And for your friend who is cabling his building project, he should put both CAT5+/6 and fiber. Only expect to use the copper for now but at only 50 bucks a unit to rough it in its worth it when you really want to do it.

Hire a pro

[semanticgap]

Wiring is the kind of thing best left to people who deal with it every day. I'd get a cabling company to give you a quote on running CAT5 to every unit and instaling a patch panel in some closet. They'll have the right tools to pull the cable, will be able to test it and will be responsible for fixing if anything isn't working.

I really wouldn't recommend pulling the cable yourself unless you really know what you're doing. BTW, depending on where it's pulled, it might need to be plenum or riser rated, and there may additional fire/code regulations for your area. You may need a license for cabling - but the cabling people would know all that.

Re:Why DSL?

[jdray]

Depending on the layout of the units, cable length may or may not be an issue. With 10/100 Ethernet, the max cable length is around 100m. I seem to remember that restricting the speed to 10 Mbit triples the max cable length, but that bit of data is suspect.

Most commercial buildings have a wiring closet on each floor that houses switches for that floor. The switches from each floor are connected to a central (REALLY FAST) switch that typically has all the routing rules on it. Routers for Internet and other network connections are also connected in here, giving everyone on the whole network access (per permissions) to "the world."

If your condos are distributed widely, I'd keep considering DSL but try and figure out a way to go with Ethernet. I'd avoid wireless for the time being, but consider other technologies like IP over power lines.

There are other posts below that detail other considerations to be made when providing your own network service, such as developing a TOS and all that's encumbered there.

Combo 10/100/1000 + fiber

[Charcharodon]

Check out Dlink's site. You can wire the individual buildings with 10/100 and then use fiber to connect them to a central router for the T1. The prices are down in the range of reasonable for the switch that have 10/100 and a pair of fiber ports. You'd have plenty of speed and distance wouldn't be much of an issue.

Don't forget the lawyers

[tbase]

A lot of good posts about the hardware and connection, but don't forget your EULA. Some things to consider:

1) Have a good privacy policy
You may need to fall back on it if the authorities (or the RIAA) come knocking for your logs. If they badger you into turning them over without a court order, you could be in one of those stories about the criminals sueing because they got caught.

2) Look at the big ISP's agreements for ideas
You may see something you hadn't thought of.

3) Lawyers are much more cost effective when used to prevent you from being sue, rather than defend you after the fact. Think about having one draft or review your agreement.

Not trying to scare you, just make sure you're covered if the guy on the third floor turns out to be a pedophile, terrorist, or (gasp) file trader. :-)

Support, NAT and the Future

[AndyBarrow]

Here are my 2 cents worth. I've been in and around this stuff for 26 years (and yes, I do have, what used to be prematurely, grey hair):

1. Put in CAT5, or even CAT6 if you can afford it. Put in twice as much as you think is reasonable. Get it certified and tested. Next time you think you need just those couple of extra pair, you won't regret it. The big hit in any infrastructure installation is labor - you are going to spend about as much for labor to have two CAT6 cables pulled in to a jack as you would pay to have one CAT5.

2. NAT would be a pain in the ass for your users if they want to do anything more complex than web browsing and mail. This sounds like a multi-year project - what do you think people are going to be doing with the Internet in two years? Doing SIP telephony, H.323 multimedia, etc. etc. through a NAT connection borders on impossible for an average user.

3. No matter what you think the skill level is of your users, cut it in half. People seem to get dumber than dirt when they get home at night. I have personal experience - I'm living in a residential compound in Kazakhstan right now. I spend my days working for the Man, nights dealing with residents who stuck floppy disks to their fridges with magnets.

4. All the cool stuff like web cache, proxy servers, even community web sites are very nice. With every single item, just think about who is going to support those things after you make your fortune and move to a grass hut in Tonga? KISS in all things.

5. On the subject of support - residents are 24/7/365. When the Smith family can't have that video conference with Grandma on Christmas morning, who they gonna call? Set up a well understood service level agreement that every resident signs. Make it simple, but clear. The rule of thumb is that if it can be explained in an elevator between floors, it's about right.

6. Fiber isn't that expensive, and there are some cool devices available now for doing lots of fun things with it. Investigate using it for house distribution. In 5 years when those 2mb DSL connections become passe', and folks start wanting those 10-20mb connections, they will look at your portrait on their mantle and smile.

7. Here's a turnaround for you: Have you thought about cable modems? Not only can you do a few channels for high speed data, you can also do digital TV distribution, and telephone distribution. What if the folks had a TV channel for the community front gate, so they could see when the mother-in-law is coming?

Have fun - this if obviously a passion for you. On those all-nighters when you are trying to solve some stupid routing problem, remember it was YOUR idea.

Andy