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Are Student Loans Burying Graduates?
DrHogie asks: "This is an interesting Op/Ed piece on student loans -- and how they bury the graduate in a load of insurmountable debt. As someone who is considering going back to college to finish his degree, are student loans (and the degree they get you) worth the debt load?" Update: 05/09 5:45 GMT by C :I apologize. The link in this story is bad, and I can't locate the original story on Yahoo. In the meantime, here's a replacement story in the same vein, and an article about student debt and how most college kids are having to work more to offset rising tuition costs. The original question is still valid, however. Is college getting to be too expensive for the average high school graduate?
Document Not Found/Expired on yahoo... BTW, I know people in their mid-to late 30s who are still paying off their lones. I say its not worth it.
Student loans are not that bad if you do what I did, put most of college on credit card... No, that's not right...
More seriously, student loans are not that bad, infact are a decent investment. For a lot of jobs a diploma really looks good, so you should be able to demand more, especially when just out of school since you need that better pay to pay off college. Also, you do not necessarily need to go to a huge named school to get a decent education. If you start with a local CC for your first year or so to get the gen-ends out of the way then go to a "real" state school you can get a decent education at a reasonable price. All said an done, I probably spent less on college then I make in 8 months. While that may seem like a lot, school loans tend to have lower interest rates and payment is deferred upto six months after you get out.
Norris/Palin 2012
Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
Document Not Found -- fix the link. Or better yet, don't link to Yahoo!
Anyhow, yes, it's very expensive to get a good education these days; I was lucky in that I went to an in-state public school, but still ended up with $20k of loans. And for what? Bad job prospects.
I feel for anyone graduating into today's bleak economy, I really do. We private citizens can't just perpetually borrow money like our governments do...
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
We can't just have people from any class getting educated and demanding large salaries and getting rich and powerful, now can we? So, instead, we've instituted Higher Education. Sure, you could learn everything you need from books, but we've decided not to bother evaluating people based on their knowledge, but, instead, to only recognize diplomas signed by places that are sure to put these cretins in a massive amount of debt. That way we can pretend not to be obstructing them but still not have to worry about them very much.
Nobody forces you to take a student loan. And by having them so easily available, it gives a choice of college when they would not have that choice. Now, that Visa that you got in exchange for a free T-Shirt that you racked up 15k on for beer and clothes... kill those.
This isn't the sig you are looking for... Carry on...
I found that working while in school helped to pay for tuition. Some people believe that they can worry about the payments later, but never pay tomorrow what you will be charged interest for today.
School doesn't need to be paid for all at once. Pay for each semester as you earn the money. Do a work study so that you are learning on the job and making money to pay for your next semester.
I had to pay for my first year of college with mainly student loans. I didn't qualify for enough student aid, and didn't recieve much scholarships. I realized I wouldn't be able to handle that debt x4 years, so I followed my brother's advice, a sailor, and joined the Air Force Reserves. I got a nice elistment bonus ($8000), plus the GI Bill (almost $700 a month, for 3 years), and a well paying weekend job ($200 a weekend). I was able to recieve more money in federal aid after enlisting and didn't have to take any more loans to pay for school. I highly suggest this for anyone thinking of paying for school by themselves, i.e. no rich uncles. Even the waiting a year part, since I got 2 stripes for having 30 college creditsand the GI Bill only pays for 3 years anyways.
Th
Try to participate in a co-op/internship if you can. I finished my undergrad degree with only $3k of student loans and 24 months of work experience. It takes an additional year to finish the degree but it is WELL worth it.
Considering the current job market, having a degree or not can often make the difference between HAVING a job or not.
Think it's worth it, now?
Your desire to accept student loans should be proportional to you ability to pay them off.
For example, if you are planning on getting a degree, and similar people with that degree are offered a median starting salary of US$45000, then you might be able to tolerate a significant debt load after you graduate because your debt payments will be a relatively small fraction of your monthly income.
If, however, your likely starting salary is US$20000, that same debt load might not be such a good plan because it is going to be a significant fraction of your monthly income.
As noted by other posters, an education can be a good investment, provided you will ever have the means to pay off your debt, and you make the most of you time in school so that you actually learn something.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, its too dark to read.
People just expect of me to go into debt with no way of ever hoping to pay it off, I tell them to go fuck themselves. Debt is too accepted in this country. Think the government would be billions in debt if it wasnt just plain assumed that you should put yourself into thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt before even earning a liveable income? I hate you people.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Of course, they do this because it benefits them when you bring your enhanced knowledge and skills to the job. I don't know how they'd feel about someone who skips out as soon as the schooling is finished... And you certainly don't want to say in the interview that you're just looking for someone to foot the bill for your education! If going this route, it really ought to be a place where you'd be happy working for some period of time after you finish school. Good karma and all that. ;-)
As others have said, a degree can go a long way towards getting a better job, especially if you're not the best at doing interviews, regardless of your actual skills. I'm now about 7 years out of college and getting close to paying off my loans in full. They were set as 10 year loans with low interest rate (as most student loans are) -- I could have paid them off earlier (arguably should have, to save money in the long run) but I didn't. The pace was slow and easy enough that I never had trouble making payments, even when I was making half of what I do now.
I'd take advantage of my company's tuition program for a Masters or something, but I lack the motivation. Life after school is so much nicer, and school + job at the same time would be hell. ;-)
Say hello to zMac.
My college saving evaporated in my sophomore year when my dad lost his company. If it wasn't for the federal school loan program (and getting lots of part time programming jobs), I would have had to drop out. The interest rates are extremely low (usually near the prime rate) and the cost to taxpayers is almost nil, AFAIK, so it's good for everyone.
I'll be paying $80 a month for the next 30 years, but I wouldn't have my current (great) job if I didn't have a degree, so in the long run, there's no question. Student loans are a wonderful thing.
student loans are chump change compared to the price of real estate in most areas. im just out of school, and have no loans, and I paid off my car completely (I went to a state school on a scholarship and saved like crazy in high school before you start in about mom and dad), yet can not even begin to think about affording a house. a co-op in my area (LI, NY) goes for 200k and a two bedroom house 280k, at the low end. Apartments alone are like 1000 a month. I am going to have to live at home for another few years to get a down payment (I refuse to rent and perpetuate myself into an endless renting cycle). a degree is a degree, and no one forces you to get one. State schools are still worth it. Why anyone would pay 160k for a degree from CW Post or a no-name private school is beyond me. But values can always be found, whether it be a high end private school, or a state school.
are student loans (and the degree they get you) worth the debt load?
From the 2002 Statistical Abstract of the US (warning - this is a PDF):
Median Annual Income by Educational Degree (No 664)
Overall - $32,092
High School Graduate - $27,669
Some college, no degree - $33,035
Bachelor's degree - $49,180
Master's degree - $59,376
Professional degree - $81,606
Doctoral degree - $71,732
Obviously, the answer to your question depends on how much debt you're carrying. But education does pay off.
The wealth numbers (which I don't have on me) are even more striking. The vast majority of Americans are in debt. If you have a college degree or above, you can begin to break even (especially if you own your house and are middle-aged or older). Those with Master's degrees have the most wealth, followed by those with Doctoral degrees. (Master's does better than doctorate, I suspect, because of all the MBAs.)
Unless you want the prestige of a well known university (reads: I failed 2nd year of a prestigous university, if only I had studied C.S. - my real passion - instead of Electronics) UK readers could take a degree course with the Open University, you can get a degree in 3 years at 28 hours per week at a cost of less than £1000 per year, books included.
Thats what I'm doing now, except spread over 6 years to fit around my career and family life, currently in my penultimate year.
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
The issues isn't loans; it's the outrageous cost of higher education. Tuition has risen MUCH faster than average incomes, often in the double digit per year range. So what it costs to go to college versus what you can save before toward tuition, and what you'll earn for the first ten years after graduation (typical payoff timeline) is really different now. Also, interest rates are much higher; my first undergrad loan was at 5%. My grad school loans were at 8.5%.
o sts/199 8/07july/straight_talk.html
Interesting link:
http://www.acenet.edu/washington/college_c
If you're a programmer wanting a productive way to ride out the recession in school and you've already got a bachelor's degree, consider going to grad school in CS, mathematics, EE, or any of the 'hard' or even soft sciences. (particularly if you're female )
Why? First of all, it's a great way to develop all those great ideas you weren't "allowed" to when working in a closely managed and directed "role" with the concommittant "responsibilities." Second of all, here's a little secret: in grad school in the US, they pay YOU , not the other way around. Low wages, but beats workin'! Third of all, your entering, say, CS with a psyche background, or math with a bio background, or physics with an engineering background is not only possible at the best schools, but positively encouraged. It's not "off topic" or "irrelevant" background, it's cross-disciplinary .
A few years work experience-- or even more than a few years--particularly in any area of computer support, installation, management, programming, are all viewed very positively by selection committees (I know, I've sat on them). Why is this? Well, for one thing, they can get certain kinds of specialist work done around the department for about a third of the commercial rate. For another, you're going to appreciate the chance to work on your own projects far more actively than a kid fresh out of college who's maybe done one or two closely supervised "independent" projects. You know how to organise and present your work. You can make decisions for yourself. You don't necessarily believe everything the professor says. This is called critical thinking and it's positively discouraged in high school, can get you labelled as a troublemaker at work, is encouraged in some university classes, discouraged in others -- but in graduate school and beyond in academics it is absolutely essential .
Furthermore, hving been in the "real world" you know the real economic advantages of developing and owning your own Intellectual Property-- as distinct from developing IP for someone else. You can develop all sorts of ideas into almost marketable products in graduate school--prototypes--and create the opportunity for yourself to develop it further when you get out. It's much, much easier to get invesment with that Ph.D. after your name, and the prototype you and only you developed in your pocket .
For those of you who quit to go to work for awhile say, half way through your undergraduate degree, you might as well take a few courses at a time while still working, at the local state or community college to get back into it. Cheaper, and it gives you more flexibility in which course of study you choose to get your undergraduate degree in, because the competition at those institutions is just not as stiff. If your heart is in the field you're switching to, believe me, you will ace these courses, and be able to transfer into a "real" school -- with scholarships . The other advantage of taking a few classes is that it will eat into your savings enough that these won't literally count against you when it comes time for the real school to calculate your financial aid package. If you've switched to working-part-time while taking your classes, all the better.
Basically, there are a number of winning strategies for finishing degrees and even changing fields in the process that don't involve taking out huge loans and going for broke. What you need to do is take up the discussion with the financial aid officer and some of the faculty you are interested in working with at your "dream" school, your "safety" school and your "University Near Mom" school where you can take a few courses(that's what we used to call UNM, which is a very good school for a very reasonable price BTW).
These people are experts in helping people
Since the one posted doesn't work, how about this one: (if you don't mind the pop-ups)
Student loans come back to haunt single mom.Student loans are a good way to finance education costs, especially if you don't have other options. I took out a modest amount while at college but I can honestly say that 1. I would not be where I am today without the degree and 2. I would not have been able to pay for colledge without the loans.
Tha debt loan can eat up a decent amount of your income when you first graduate. But, I think it is more important to look at it as an investment. If you can raise your earning potential from $6/hour (12,000 a year) to $15 (31,200) you are seeing over a 100% increse in your investment (yourself) in the first year alone.
Take that over your entire lifetime and see that they will end up giving you more than they take away.
I'm going back for my M.A. after ten years in the workforce. I'm going to a state university which will cost me about $4,000/year, which I don't think will kill me. But I have a nephew who's going to Duke (a big-time American school) who will be paying over $30,000/year! That's insane! If I ever have kids they'll definitely be going to the state universities...
Student loans are not the real heart of the problem with education debt. Yes, they open opportunities to pay for an education one might otherwise be unable to afford. But the fact so many people need loans to go to those colleges is indicative of the need for better government support in education. In some countries, such as the United Kingdom, as well as in states like California, education is surprisingly inexpensive because it is subsidised for local residents.
In America this would be a controversial use of tax dollars, but I can't imagine it being more controversial than using tax dollars for a war in Iraq, or for a tax refund that will bankrupt our Social Security and Medicare programs before I'm old enough to use them. I don't mean to bash the current president specifically when I say this. Rather, I mean to point out that subsidised education would benefit a lot of people, and be more useful than what we're doing with our government now. It's money well spent if it means that people graduate with little or no debt. I'd probably own a house right now if I wasn't still paying loans.
I took the last exam of my undergraduate career yesterday and will graduate tommorow with $0 in debt.
Here a few of the things I did to make that happen:
1. Went to a state school in my home town and lived at home most of the time. Saved a ton of money there.
2. Freelanced and made some decent money (while learning my trade!!!!!) instead of a burger-fliping job...
3. Co-oped three semesters, and used the money from this to buy for a good chunck of school.
4. Didn't abuse credit cards or live a crazy lifestyle (beer adds up, first from the wallet, then to the belly)
5. And lastly, in the spirit of full disclosure, my dad help me a little the first few years, take advantage of every oppurtunity you get...
Yeah, I know sounds like my college years sucked, but they didn't really. I didn't need dorms to find friends, and I traveled a lot with money i saved over the years. For those of you about to say that most state schools suck. I agree, ALL school suck if you attitude is that you are going there to sit in class and be pumped full of info. I learned so little IN class, but out of class, I learned a ton, special projects, starting a business, independant studies, etc...
There is just about no better feeling to be had with your clothes on that having your car and dipolma paid off.
Now bring on that 30 year mortgage!!!!
Cloud City Digital: DVD Production at its cheapest/finest
I will graduate with £18k in loans at the rate of inflation which is hardly the best start to a career, but I can just about live with it considering that my tuition was free and I will have lived off that for 4 years. (Plus working for vaious people.)
This is fairly typical for MEng students, and is a big burden when they start their careers on about £20k~ ($30k~).
Recently however there has been lots of talk about making students pay tuition as well, adding around £20,000 to that figure (and people doing useful degrees like Engineering, Physics, Chemistry get hit hardest as they have the highest costs). The basic principle is that if it's worth doing a degree its worth paying for it.
This is utter bull, graduates already _do_ pay for it - through vastly higher taxation. I expect to pay ~40% tax on my earnings for about 50 years, is this not more than enough to pay for my education? Especially since more graduates add value to economy (in terms of human capital) and also boost company earnings, which are also taxed.
If increased tax revenues are not high enough to justify all of the people who want to do a course, then the number of places should be cut and only the most skilled allowed to take up a place.
The government should be funding students, especially in shortage areas, to encourage as many talented people as possible to do an appropriate degree. All of the crap about opening up access by making any halfwit who can afford it able to go to university is one of the most damaging things that can be done to education, IMO.
Beep beep.
"in fact", two words
gen-eds
and
than
Missing a comma here, run-on sentence
"up to", two words
In fairness, the errors here are all things one should learn in high school rather than college.
Take-home lesson: it doesn't help your point that a good education remains affordable when your post is littered with spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and typos. One ends up sounding like Barney from The Simpsons: "Yeah, I gots me a good edumacation! BELCH!"
My wife and I have had quite different lives. She came from a family where the mother didn't give a shit about educating her four daughters, but managed to get her son interested in commmunity college (an old-school Mormon mentality, where her daughers were to be perfect wives/baby-makers and nothing else). She dropped out of HS, got knocked up (before she met me), got a GED for herself, and has worked shit jobs ever since. I came from a middle class family that paid for 5.5 years at a decent state college, but I never finished. I'm a sysadmin. Sometimes she gets irritated that I can gross $25/hr sitting at a desk at a job that I love while she (when she decides to work) usually busts her ass for (at best) $10/hr.
The quicker route would be to take that $40k for college (if you have the savings) and simply jump to the final step above (own real property with no consumer debt). But the 4 years of living poor will really make one appreciate the value of money.
You might think that both of us would be huge supporters of the college degree thing. Oddly enough, we're not. We've both filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy at different points in our lives. She did mostly due to hard times (single mother anyone?). I did because I was a dumb-ass who racked up unsecured debt and then lost his job.
Once we both we jarred out of consumerism, we became much more accutely aware of just how well-off most people could do with modest income. The problem is that most people choose not to. They piss away countless money on eating out, cable/sattelite TV, new cars, homes in the 'burbs, and countless other crap. It's sad, really.
But it doesn't matter what demographic people are in, they'll waste money just the same. There are just as many DirecTV dishes in poorer neighborhoods as there are in your typical middle-class 'burb.
Ever hear a parent advise their kids: "When you graduate, I'll buy you a reliable used car. I want you to find yourself a cheap place to live. Share a house or apartment with 2-3 other kids your age (in a college town), or find a cheap efficiency, whatever it takes. Then find the best-paying job you can find right now. I don't care if it's labor shift work at a factory, waiting tables (decent money for the work), or whatever. If the pay-to-rent ratio is too low, I'll relocate you. You're young, you have your health, and you have no family and/or kids to bog you down. Live like a pauper. Scrimp every spare penny you can for 4 years and put it somewhere where you can't touch it -- bonds, CDs, even a savings or money market account at your local credit union. I'll cover disasters for you (you break a leg or your car gives up the ghost), but you handle the rest. You may not believe it, but in 4 years you'll be far further along than 95% of your classmates who went to college. Many will have loans, and nearly all will have credit card debt. You'll have at good-sized wad of cold hard cash and you can use that to put down (or buy outright) a fixer-upper house or a piece of land to throw a trailer on. From there, if you're smart, you'll be on a very short road to financial freedom, and you won't owe anyone a dime (excepting property taxes)."
Of course you'd never hear that. Any parent who said that would be shunned as an evil parent. Note that I didn't say to kick the kids out the door and hope they have a good life. I think a life of financial freedom (note, not "idependantly wealthy") is better than any typical middle-class life that I know of.
Maybe slightly idealistic, but true freedom is possible for most everyone until they head down the road of consumerism and debt. The sad part is that most people want Shiny New Things (tm) instead.
Man, if I
Disclaimers
1) I'm a Brit. That means with my parents throwing in $400 a month, and working 40 hours a week in vacations, I'll only owe $18000 when I graduate.
2) I graduate in July
3) I'm looking for jobs right now
4) Job prospects in the computing field, for students and graduates, in the UK, are minimal to non-existant
5) Average UK graduate wage is $33k
6) Average UK wage is £36k
7) Above $30k gross earnings, we get taxed at 32%, with an additional 17.5% tax on everything (aside from food) we buy (effectively a 50% tak rate)
8) Above $50k gross earnings, we get taxed at 40%, with an additional 17.5% tax on everything we buy (effectivly a 60% tax rate)
9) The current government wants 50% of kids to go to university
10) Current government propaganda states that the average graduate earns $15,000 a year more then non-graduates ($8,000 paid straight back in taxes). Thats based on figures before the whole "cram everyone into increasingly underfunded universities" policy
11) Almost every computing job outside graduate training schemes requires 1, 2 or more years full time commercial experience. About half of them would like a degree, and a third of them say a degree is essential.
12) We can only take out $5000 a year loans (to cover rent + food), and some banks lend upto $4000 over the 3 year degree.
13) Many UK computer courses suck, teaching you 20 year old crap no companies have ever used (or certainly dont now).
Unless you have, or can afford to take, at least 1 years work experience (which is usually unpaid, as you have no experience *or* qualifications, and demand is very high), chances of finding a job better then flipping burgers is minimal. If you have contacts (real contacts, not people on IRC that claim to run a company in Vermont), you probably wont find one in the computing field. Not in the UK anyway.
Personally, I'm off to greece for the summer - my parents emmigrated from this shithole last year, and things are just getting worse. Thanks Tony!
My degree may help later in life, but it sure as hell doesnt help getting your foot in the door. If you got experience in the boom, then uni's probably worth it. Tighten the belt buckle, stop buying iPods and tivos, maybe sell your DVD collection, and it's probably a good thing. I had a friend that went straight to work at 18, for a year, then chose a local uni while still working there. As luck would have it, that uni is getting better and better (
Most of the people I know who feel "buried" either went to colleged that cost ~$19,000 per year or didn't work at all and ate off their loan amounts. I've gone the "high-stress/low-debt" route--work full-time and only put the tuition on the loan balance.
Danke tres mucho, tovarishch.
Wow, I bet you feel clever now.
When the compiler starts complaining about my spelling I'll start caring.
9 out of 10 trolls agree, when you cannot be bothered to reply to content, pick out spelling.
Norris/Palin 2012
Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
...after I graduated into the recession of the early 90's. (Sound familiar?) I was unemployed for over a year and couldn't pay my 30k in loans. I was depressed and feared for my future.
And I still think it was worth it. My college experience was fantastic, and I met my future wife. The 30k or so was less than we have spent on cars in the past few years, and I will benefit from what I learned in college for the rest of my life.
Depressed grads, keep your hopes up: When I finally got a job, I paid everything off early and now I save everything I can. I know several people who had financial troubles out of college but overcame them in time.
People spend tens of thousands of dollars on all kinds of things (look at your spending over the past few years). I don't see how Student Loan debt is any worse than financing a new SUV.
I was really lucky in that regards. I'm graduating with a BS in Molecular Biology and no debt from the Univ. of Rochester, a pretty well-renowned university for biology. Still doesn't make it great to swallow the 18k yearly bill (tuition is actually 30k, all things considered, but I get some aid that knocks it down to 18k).
Anyways, grad school is a good thing, in the long-run. Gives you the potential to get higher-paying jobs, and will mean that you'll be over-qualified for almost everything. In grad-schools, they actually pay you. Why? Because you're working for them and brining reputation to the school. As an undergrad, you're more of a burden to the university than an asset; as a grad, you're definately an asset.
The key is to get into a good grad school: the best one you can. It would probably be best in the long-run if, after graduating with a BS, you get a job in your field and rack up a year or two's worth of good experience (this is also a good time diversify yourself by taking some evening courses...e.g., I as a bio-BS, might take a few courses on computer-programming). Waiting the extra year or two to go to grad school will mean that it'll take you an extra year or two to get your pHD, but it will be worth it if you get yoru pHD from a better school.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Part of the reason scholarships are out there is FOR keeping students heads above water with the student loans.
:) Also, look for local scholarship contests. You have a much greater chance there because LESS people are applying. :) happy trails.
There is over 3 BILLION dollars of scholarship money out there (including those for refrigerator engineers, waitress's, women, everything-- dont tell me you cant get scholarships because you CANT write-- bull), if you try hard enough, work long enough,and prepare well enough, you can have half to all of your college tuition on scholarship money. Some great sites are www.scholarships.com and www.collegeboard.com -- If you begin to prepare in your sophmore year, you'll get there
~Just keep eating, porky. Fat people are harder to kidnap.
In some places, this isn't an issue. In the last issue of Canta (student magazine published here) they did a survey of different universities around the world and found that Ireland has the best off with no fees, no debt and the government re-imberses your living costs (!!!) with Germany closely followed (with just the living costs).
In New Zealand, the fees aren't too bad and debt is manageable, but they found that the US and UK are the worst for squeezing the money out of students.
Australian Uni's charge citizens only 6000 a year for a medical degree, less for others. If you pay upfront then it costs 25% less per year. Considering our universities are considered very good worldwide it is not like you are going to a crappy university. Talking to exchange students, in both directions, they find our work much harder than American universities work.
:P
BUT you say... I don't want to be an Australian.
OK it just costs you more to atend the university approx 15k per year and you have to pay it upfront.
I have a friend who is doing this she moved and is living in Australia and it is much cheaper than going to an American university and they feel they are getting a better education.
Every thing is cheaper in Australia, rent ($340 per week CBD of largest city), milk $1 per litre, Big mac are Big, etc.
Best of all you get to learn the metric system
BTW all cost are in Australian dollars ~= 63 US cents (at current exchange, usually about 50c).
when your country doesn't spend billions on a war nobody wants :)
;)
I personally live in the Netherlands, where everyone gets a (small) scholership every month, people with parents not earning a lot (single-mom's) get a 200% extra, and a nice 200% extra if you don't live at home (-2500 euro a year on college costs, which is fixed throughout the country, +5000 a year when living at home). All in all, if you have a part-time job you can live like a king and drink beer and smoke pot all day long (if you want to, it's not like we _actually_ smoke pot all day. Does make the world bearable sometimes
Anyway, there are plans to cut the educational scholorships and have a loan-only system like the US. Looking at the $XX000+ loans a lot of students in the US have, my bet is that Europe will be just as terrible in public education in 10 years as the US is now. Hurray for the EU, globalisation and the general idea that the US is always right. Who cares for oil in Iraq when a lot of people can't even afford a good education without huge loans?
This sig is intentionally left blank
I've been out working for a couple of years now and I still owe about a $100k. Not a day goes by that I don't think about my debt. Over a third of that is from credit cards (as a student, sometimes you do what you have to do to make ends meet). But even tho the other 2/3 is from school loans, I'm more worried about the credit card debt. The monthly interest on my cards, alone, is eating me alive. If you can afford to eat, entertain, and house yourself for the next x years remaining without charging up the plastic, then the degree is well worth it IMHO. Just be careful to avoid my pitfalls and send wisely, stick to a budget, and stay away from those cards or you may really regret it years down the line.
I'm posting anonymously, today, just to save myself the public humiliation. I took out a ton of loans to go back to school to become a high school teacher: first undergraduate, and then graduate.
Now, for all the talk about teachers being under paid, it really isn't true. In the area I live (NY) I could expect to start at $35-41 thousand dollars, depending on the district. That also leaves me July and August to work the construction trades or whatever, while I'm young. I felt confident I could handle the loans.
Problem is, there are no jobs! I'm certified for social studies, and there's a glut of such people. It is rare that my resume even gets "off the pile," resulting in an interview.
My choices are:
The loans are deferred right now, but that's not going to last.
Moral of the story: your future isn't sure unless you have a well-heeled uncle that has a job for you. Don't mortgage it on a college degree, unless the loans are manageable on half the money you think you will earn.
The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) has an excellent article on the debt explosion among college graduates. I recommend it to anyone who would like something more substantial on the subject than the anecdotal evidence presented by
Here's a portion of the executive summary: Michael.
Linux : Mac
My wife and I...
/.er was able to fool a woman into marriage? Jigga please.
Porkchop, you expect me to believe a
I have $10,923.47 (yes, I've got it down to the penny) in student loans that I have to pay off. I applied for an interest relief extension. My first payment is due in October.
My job will pay about $50k annually. So my loans about 1/5th of my annual salary. That is manageable.
However, I've incurred about $5k in credit card debt in the last 8 months that I didn't have a job. That is still easily manageable since I've spent the last 4 years budgeting $1000 per month in expenses.
If everything goes right, I should have my debts paid off in less than a year.
I saved some money beforehand. I was in the coop program and earned money that way. Bummed some money off of my parents. Applied for bursaries. Worked part-time during one of my semesters.
Btw, that's all in Canadian funds at a Canadian university. I feel bad for you poor American bastards. My parents and working-class family immigrated to Canada in the 70s. I can't see myself being able to make it through a good school if I was an American. Family members that immigrated to the States are having a pretty tough time comparatively.
(That last paragraph was meant to be a troll or flamebait. Just venting a little frustration at the current state of the world.)
if the cost of college gets prohibitly expensive, rich kids will have fewer people to compete with and rich people can cherry pick those willing to suck up and play the "butt kissing" game. In the near future, only upper middle class and the upper class will be able to afford college without going in debt for 20 yrs.
(which ironically isn't quoted by the reply code)
Viva Le France. How quickly so many disrespect the country that helped us win our freedom. So sad how closely our country now resembles that which we revolted against. Perhaps they should watch The Patriot and Braveheart soon. Hope you won't mind if I quote your signature in conversation. In return, I offer this:
Freedom Fries? More like Fascism Fries.
If you go to school, and use the degree gained therein to get a better job than you might have otherwise, it's an investment. If you go to school and get a degree but are unable to find work in your field and end up in desktop and network support [innocent whistle], your education wasn't an investment--it was an expense. A LUXURY expense, at that.
We are in such a situation. My wife has a BS in Environmental Science that for a variety of reasons she has been unable to leverage into employment in that field. While she makes a kickass office administrator and a superb nanny, her degree (and related professional knowledge) is gathering dust. Similarly, my BA in Political Science is only useful if I wanted to go to law school or intern with an elected official or something similar. I chose not to do any of those things, so my degree is also an expense.
No real complaints--we made decisions about post-college life which I still think were the correct ones for us, but if we could go back farther and re-consider our college paths before starting them, things might be different. I might not be unemployed, for example. =)
The point of light here is that we could (either or both of us) return to school and get advanced degrees or teaching credentials and turn our expenses back into investments. That's a pretty serious investment when we already have close to $30k in student debts, though, so we would want to be absolutely certain that this time it is an investment.
Since the opportunity presented itself to me, I recently enlisted in the National Guard under a program which will help pay my student loans while I learn Russian on the federal dime. Only an 8-year commitment, and they gave me a free t-shirt!
Compiler doesn't care if you spell it correctly, as long as you are consistant :)
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Your parents are making half a Meg a year ($80/hr * 2000 hr/yr * '3 times more' = $480k/yr) and they save less than you do?
I am guessing medical bills for a family member, a lawsuit that went horribly wrong, or something. Given that you are totally anonymous here (new user id, no post history, no email address) you mind sharing with us (me) what that was, if for no other reason than to insure that we (I) don't have the same thing happen?
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Here's something that post-secondary insitutions don't want you to know : For the majority of people, university does not make sense. Some form of training does - but while we're at it, in a lot of cases, not even high school makes sense.
The situtation might be different in the USA, but here, if you're just going to do a BA or BSc with no intention of a post-graduate or professional degree, then you're insane and probably wasting your time. It's not just the cost of tuition and the loans, but it's the opportunity cost of being in school that kills you. A year in school is a lot of money you could have saved and invested. There's always the risk you won't get into a professional school, or won't finish your degree, too. I know a lot of people who had to start over when they didn't think their programs through and bailed 3/4 of the way there for one reason or another.
A better choice for a lot of people is to learn a trade that's in demand and get good at it. Tradespeople make better money than you'd think, are often union protected for better or worse, and have a good quality of life. Another thing I think is nuts is living in a big city - it's novel for awhile, but you could own a house, land, and a car in a rural area and be free of debt and stress for a few years of downtown rent.
The other piece of advice I'd give people is to save up as much money as you can early on before you start spending - at least to the tune of $10,000 or so in liquid cash, after which you can make longer term investments. That is your freedom to retrain, or leave a shitty job, and it doesn't take long to get more than that.
Something overlooked by slashdotters is the need to choose a mate carefully and as soon as you can. Two incomes invested mean you can easily retire at 35 or 40. Two professional incomes are even better.
..don't panic
I agree with most of the replies here. I graduated two years ago, it took five months to find a job, lost that because of the bad economy. Then I got a job in a field that really stinks, litigation support (over-glorifed copy clerk). Most of the people graduated with got really bad jobs not because they didn't look hard enough or had contacts, but because of the economy. If recent grads would have graduated four or five years ago, we would be reading this and saying, "too bad for those people".
The other thing is, yes, college is getting too expensive for average high school students to go to college. The University of Kansas is raising it's tuition by 20% next year. Why? Because they have to pay for coachs that make more in one year than I will in 15 years. Here is the problem. There are some people that teach and coach in colleges that are not worth it. Then there are the professors that are really good that don't paid what they are worth. We should tell the universities to stop paying huge saleries to basketball and football coaches and save that money to pay the people that really deserve it, the support staff of the colleges, the people that clean up, feed, help students find things in the libraries, those people. Professors once they have 10 years of sinority in, don't need to get a pay increase every year.
Plus, why should colleges pay companies to take interns, like some colleges do. Why don't the companies pay the colleges for use of the students, like temp companies or something. That could bring in huge amounts of money to the colleges. The colleges supply labor that is somewhat already trained, and the students get valuable experience which makes it easier to find jobs after they graduate. Pretty simple.
But, that is just my opinion, I am probably wrong.
eh, this sucks, I am going back to bed....
Two words for you: Media Studies
WTF? What does this do for you? I totally agree with the comments on Engineering/Physics/Chemistry, but what good does "Media Studies" do to anyone?
Yeah, NZ isn't too bad price wise, but I'm still pissed that the Politicians who introduced Student Loans got THEIR education for free. And why the -peep- are we paying 8% interest? I can get a mortgage cheaper than my student loan!
Subtract taxes from that Salary. Add student loan interest, plus that fact that those Doctorial degree's mostlikely came with $100k of loans and you're looking at a life of pain and suffering. $71,000 is not a lot of money when you take into account cost of living and interest of $100,000 student loan.
Yes, an education pays. Does it pay enough? Not nearly. I think there will be a huge backlash in the coming future as people realize that a lifetime of debt is not worth the resulting salary. Schools right now are incredibly over priced and taking advantage of the less fortunate.
How you got modded to 5 eludes me.
You learned hard life lessons the hard way. That isn't what bothers me about your post.
College isn't for everyone, that isn't what bothers me about your post.
What you seem to have missed about college is a different freedom. Not a financial freedom, but freedom of the mind. The ability to think for yourself, discover what you enjoy, set up a plan to achieve that goal, and achieve it. If college fails to do this for kids, then the college failed them (Or the kid didn't participate in college fruitfully).
If you love your job, why retire at 40? If you truly love your job, you'll stick with it until they force you to retire. College is about opening up your mind so you can be your own boss and start a company if thats what you want, or work for someone else if you would prefer that.
College isn't about getting the best paying job in the world. When someone tries to sell it as such, THAT is the problem, an education is more than money.
what good does "Media Studies" do to anyone?
:o)
Gives you three years to smoke pot?
Perhaps they should charge media studies, artists and pol/sci people double to subsidise engineers, mathematicians and the like
Beep beep.
I'm at Oxford University in the UK. I pay £1100 tuition fees a year, and about £2400 in accommodation and dinners eaten in hall. I receive a loan of £2800. Thus, without any day to day expenses, I am in debt. I am not allowed to work during term time at my college and I receive no help in any way from my parents, bar collecting me and delivering me at the start and end of terms.
Expenditure here in Oxford can be high, but it can be low. In my first term I spent £1000, last term only £400. This term two weeks in I have spent over £200, and have countless society dinners and balls to attend which will of course add up too.
I have an overdraft facility at my back of up to £1250 interest free. I use this to its full. I intend to work over the summer and hopefully earn about £1500.
Over four years, if I do this, I should end up with a student loan of £12000, and an overdraft hopefully not more than £2000 or so.
£14000 debt.
But for this debt, I get a once in a life-time opportunity to study with the best in the world, to experience culture and life like I have never known it, and to be hugely busy both in a working and social sense. It is worth every penny of this debt.
I plan to get some low paying job doing something interesting, or even a second degree once I finish this one.
People should not go to university purely for the job they will get at the end of it, they should go because they love and want to learn. You can pay debts back very slowly, and with some simply cut backs, it is not that hard to stay above board.