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Buckminsterfullerene Strikes Again - Nanotube RAM

putaro writes "Nanotube based RAM, under development by Nantero, promises to deliver densities of over 1 terabit per cm^2, is non-volatile and faster than current DRAM. The Economist has a nice story. Forget about just kicking DRAM's and FLASH's butt, is this finally the end of magnetic storage as well?"

260 comments

  1. too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Its still 10 years off. Let me know when you can buy one...

    1. Re:too bad by XipX · · Score: 1

      If I read the information right, they hope to start mass producing these in a year.

    2. Re:too bad by Smidge204 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "At the moment, Nantero has only a working prototype. But the firm aims to have memories on the market within a year."

      A lot shorter than ten years, hopefully. Though I'm skeptical we'll see them commercially available within a year...

      I hope it would be compatable with existing memory systems, though. It would be nice to just swap out existing RAM for a NanoRAM module and get an instant performance and capacity boost (Providing the controllers don't become an issue, but that's where AMD's 64-bit chip and it's built in memory conntroller come in!).
      =Smidge=

    3. Re:too bad by kwerle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How is that informative? "I hope it would be compatable with existing memory systems, though. It would be nice to just swap out existing RAM for a NanoRAM module and get an instant performance and capacity boost"???

      Maybe you didn't notice - it said TERABIT/cm^2. Your current system probably can't handle more than 2Gig of RAM - let alone hundreds and hundreds of gig. Hell, your BIOS may not even be able to handle a HD that large.

      I mean, really. 100x faster, and >1000x the storage. Think about that for a minute. Who gives a fuck if you have to toss your HUGE SLOW FUCKING SYSTEM and buy a new one?

      If they do pull this off (and I think they're blowing smoke), it will make today's computers look like the vacuum tube machines of yore.

      Hope to drop in upgrade... Come on.

    4. Re:too bad by Phoukka · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Anything that dense and that much faster than existing memory technologies will need a different memory controller. No getting around it.

      The fact that AMD built a memory controller into the Opteron is not necessarily something to be happy about. On the one hand, it greatly reduces latency of memory reads/writes, on the other hand you can't upgrade the memory speed beyond what your entire CPU supports -- you have to upgrade your entire CPU. Which means AMD has to redesign the CPU to take advantage of faster (or different types of) memory. And Opterons aren't that cheap yet...

    5. Re:too bad by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 4, Interesting

      you can't upgrade the memory speed beyond what your entire CPU supports -- you have to upgrade your entire CPU. Which means AMD has to redesign the CPU to take advantage of faster (or different types of) memory. And Opterons aren't that cheap yet...

      Not so. The opteron has 3 hypertransport busses which can be connected to alternate memory controllers - the onboard one is then disabled. What I want to know is whether AMD plans to maintain separate part numbers for each speed/controller combo, or if they're just going to band them, with higher clocked Opterons getting faster memory.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    6. Re:too bad by 42forty-two42 · · Score: 1

      Hope you don't use PGP - non-volatile isn't as good as you may think.

    7. Re:too bad by silentbozo · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe not a drop in ram replacement, but how about a solid-state ide/scsi drive? Memory blocks, so to speak...

    8. Re:too bad by Smidge204 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but even though they say it has potential for hold a terabit/sq.cm., I fail to see how it mandates that RAM modules made with this tech hold more than 128/256/512MB like current modules do. The point is that you would have faster, non-volitile RAM that would fit into existing hardware.

      Or, if you prefer, new computers that can still use the older (and likely cheaper, at least initially) silicon memory.

      I don't know about you, but I certaintly don't throw out my system every time they make something better. And let's not forget the people who are so anal/paranoid about performance would pay through the nose for a 10% increase in memory speed. I'd also imagine that this non-volitile RAM uses next to no power, making it a great potential drop-in replacement for laptops and other portable devices. A little bit of software tweaking and you could basically have an instant hibernating mode.

      Useful for desktops, too... not everyone can afford/think they need a UPS system, but if the power goes out, smarter software would just bring the machine back to where it was with no data loss! Sounds like a perfect nitch for a compatable drop-in replacement to me. What's the total cost to install new RAM and flash the BIOS and/or apply a patch compared to buying all new systems?

      <joke>
      Of course, Silicon RAM is to NanoRAM as a kumquat is to a watermelon, but that doesn't mean people are suddenly going to stop buying kumquats and switch to watermelons. I'm using this simple analogy an an insulting way of making a point because, from the way you phrased your comment, I can see your sense of humor and practicality is limited. Unfortunately, I've lost track of the point I was trying to make, but I'm sure you'll agree that both watermelons and kumquats have their season, and either or both make a fine addition to any table.
      </joke>

      [credits to Dr. Science for that last bit :)]
      =Smidge=

    9. Re:too bad by kwerle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, maybe not a drop in ram replacement, but how about a solid-state ide/scsi drive? Memory blocks, so to speak...

      Look, you're missing the point. This would represent a fundamental change in computing. 1 terabit/cm^2. Imagine having 50 GBytes on your wristwatch.

      Half a terabyte on your cell phone.

      As many terabytes as you can imagine on a laptop that runs for a day because it doesn't have a HD and all the RAM is NVRAM, and it's 100 times faster than your current system.

      Really. Think about it. Who gives a shit if you can upgrade your current machine. Did you see the article recently about AppleII users getting together? You'd look as silly as any of them... (no offense - I've run a IIe emulator within the past 3 months, and it was fun; a lot like it will be amusing to be able to store all of silentbozo's files on my cell phone many times over)

    10. Re:too bad by shaitand · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Although your right the 1000x thing and 100x thing were potentials they expect within the next few years, right now they said it was 20x faster then the fastest memory on the market today, so it will be bigger capacity although they didn't say how much bigger, and it will be quite a bit faster.

      The hardware aside, in software this memory could easily replace the hd and ram, at least on a linux system. The problems I see are that all software is currently designed to use both memory and disk as if they are two separate things... and to use one device in place of both would require a rewrite. In linux talking to hardware is done through the kernel, so changes to the kernel to "emulate" ram could get this hacked into usability fairly quickly. It could allow the amount to use as ram to be passed as a kernel parameter.

    11. Re:too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know..I really wish you people would actually educate yourselves on a topic, rather than just blabbering on as if you understand how everything works. It really is kind of embarrassing.

    12. Re:too bad by kwerle · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Of course, Silicon RAM is to NanoRAM as a kumquat is to a watermelon

      No. Silicon RAM is to NanoRAM as Vacuum tubes are to Silicon. They're both there to do the same thing, it's just that nobody bothers with vacuums (except for a very few special purpose - like audiophiles) because they're old and clunky.

      The point is that you would have faster, non-volitile RAM that would fit into existing hardware.

      No. The point is that you could easily have so much RAM that it would make retrofitting it into a current system look like putting an spoiler on a model-T.

      I'd also imagine that this non-volitile RAM uses next to no power, making it a great potential drop-in replacement for laptops and other portable devices.

      Good thinking. Oh, and let's not forget you wouldn't need to spin a disk at 1000s of RPM, which uses some energy as well.

      This is not an upgrade. It is a change.

    13. Re:too bad by b!arg · · Score: 1

      So you would want to drop RAM into your machine that could easily hold more than your hard drive yet still have that good ol' hard drive reading information into it? This wouldn't be the equivilent of Intel/AMD introducing their new models of CPUs. This would be a fundamental change in computing. This is the solid state drive that is the future of computing.

      --

      Everybody dies frustrated and sad and that is beautiful
    14. Re:too bad by Dark+Lord+Seth · · Score: 1

      If it's as cheap, revolutionairy and fast as they promise it to be, why not let it be usable on retro hardware? Simply create a whole wad of those things with extremely low densities so you can get a nice 1 or 2 gB strip of memory for 10 Euro. Just add a throttling system (enough space on the modules themselves left!) that makes it act like an equivalent memory module in mhz, so it can be set to perform like a 100mhz DIMM or like a 800mhz Rambus, at will.

      And yes, if it'd work out and is real to start with, it would be a dream to work with. HDs faster then current memory... Does anyone else hear a small legion of database admins orgasming in unison at that idea? (especially if we can directly execute stuff from HD, without using memory in between)

    15. Re:too bad by Luke-Jr · · Score: 1

      So new motherboards can have a 2 MB RAM chip on them used for randomization... Big deal.

      --
      Luke-Jr
    16. Re:too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, you're missing the point. This would represent a fundamental change in computing. 1 terabit/cm^2. Imagine having 50 GBytes on your wristwatch.

      Half a terabyte on your cell phone.


      Whoa imagine all that pr0n!
    17. Re:too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...so changes to the kernel to "emulate" ram could get this hacked into usability fairly quickly

      Why not just set up a ramdrive?

    18. Re:too bad by chewedtoothpick · · Score: 1

      Actually this COULD be an easy fix in windows too, potentially. I know that you can make multiple folders on one HDD act as two partitions (not seperate sizes though) in Windows. I am very sure that it is a matter of them patching a small command into the kernel or command tansulator to make this possible with the ram/solid-state combination that the article suggests this technology will bring about... plus, anytime a new OS comes out they usually have support for the newest stuff at least within their first month, and it is just a SHORT matter of time before something new hits the markets, no matter how settled/good it may be now.

      --
      Erutangis ym si siht.
    19. Re:too bad by shaitand · · Score: 1

      because the system has to boot from this as well, if I'm not mistaken you can't boot from a ramdrive.

    20. Re:too bad by shaitand · · Score: 1

      The next release of windows is scheduled a few years in the future. Unless they can patch it..... Linux on the other hand... well it might require a reboot ;)

      Another poster said why not just use a ramdrive... well the OS has to live and boot off it. I'm talking about completely eliminating the concepts of "hard drive" and "ram" altogether and having just one disk in the system. There still needs to be bios and hardware support of course.

    21. Re:too bad by rebelcool · · Score: 1
      Most people on slashdot talk out of their ass constantly. I mean, look how many people on this thread suggest turning it into an IDE or SCSI drive, which is absolute nonsense. It has half-nanosecond write times. A bus spec built for millisecond mechanical drives is woefully inadequate for such storage technology.

      Of course if they knew anything at all about basic bus architecture (aside from obscure acronyms), it would be obvious.

      The only conceivable 'drop-in' on current machines this might be useful for is on some sort of PCI setup. PCI's bandwidth is far higher than SCSI or IDE, but is still a considerable bottleneck. I can see this being used as a reasonable large caching scheme.

      Really though, for effective use of such technology requires a redesign of the whole system.

      --

      -

    22. Re:too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another poster said why not just use a ramdrive... well the OS has to live and boot off it. I'm talking about completely eliminating the concepts of "hard drive" and "ram" altogether and having just one disk in the system. There still needs to be bios and hardware support of course.

      Well, if you had BIOS support, you could easily get the bios to initialize a ramdrive that would get passed to the linux kernel as the device to boot of off

    23. Re:too bad by russh347 · · Score: 1

      But you can boot from flash...

    24. Re:too bad by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > > But the firm aims to have memories on the market within a year
      > A lot shorter than ten years, hopefully. Though I'm skeptical
      > we'll see them commercially available within a year...

      It goes something like this...

      May 2004: dev team member admits to management that a little
      more tweaking is required, but it should be ready by fall.
      Team member who breaks this news to management may or may
      not be fired, depending on the weather.
      Jun 2004: Slashdot runs a story on the delay.
      Aug 2004: Slashdot runs a story on the delay.
      Feb 2005: dev team proudly announces to management that it
      is now indeed ready for production.
      Mar 2005: Slashdot runs a story and we all get excited.
      Apr 2005: plans are laid for actual production, and an assembly
      line is booked for starting in August. Slashdot runs a
      story on this and we all get excited.
      Oct 2005: first units ship, in theory, but mere mortals do
      not see them. But there's a review, and slashdot posts a
      story that links to it and gets us all excited.
      Nov 2007: first motherboard ships that is compatible with the
      memory units. And it's less than a thousand bucks. (Of
      course, the memory is much more expensive than that...)
      Feb 2008: Software vendors start announcing compatibility.
      Slashdot runs a story for each of them.
      Dec 2009: mere mortals can afford it, if they make good money.
      There's a review on Ars Technica that explains the theory of
      how it works and features benchmark graphs that reveal it
      might improve system performance if memory is your bottleneck,
      but that you definitely have to consider disk I/O also in the
      overall picture.
      Dec 2011: normal people like you and I can maybe get our hand
      on a complete working system for around a thousand bucks.
      Dec 2012: the next big thing hits, and prices drop.
      Jun 2013: you can pick up a used system on ebay for $200.
      May 2015: the stuff's a glut on the market. You try to sell
      a complete system on ebay with no reserve and it doesn't
      even sell. You end up letting it go for the cost of
      shipping so you don't have to worry about recycling it.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    25. Re:too bad by io333 · · Score: 1

      WinCE has no problem using ram as both execution space and storage.

    26. Re:too bad by Exiler · · Score: 1, Informative

      And it always will be...

      --
      Banaaaana!
    27. Re:too bad by jtdubs · · Score: 1

      It's a shame that most of the laptop's power go to the CPU and the LCD, neither of which will be helped by this technology. So, barring new battery technology your "laptop that runs for days" is still but a dream.

      Justin Dubs

    28. Re:too bad by kwerle · · Score: 1

      Actually, I said "a day". Considering that this is nvram, ALL memory and (of course) drive energy should drop. So should cooling (no hot drive, no hot RAM).

      Apple already ships laptops with 4 (6 if you believe them) hour batteries. If you cut me some slack and figure that a day is a working day - 8 hours - then I'd imagine it'd be no problem. But I'm really guessing here. You're right, of course, about the LCD issue. I guess that is where more than half the juice goes.

    29. Re:too bad by g4dget · · Score: 3, Funny
      on the other hand you can't upgrade the memory speed beyond what your entire CPU supports

      Wow, I have to upgrade the entire CPU. Like, I get a new motherboard with 128Gbytes of nanotube memory, but I can't put bits and pieces of my old Opteron on it. Perfectly shocking. What was AMD thinking.

    30. Re:too bad by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

      > I'm not mistaken you can't boot from a ramdrive.

      --You mean ya can't do that TODAY... All it needs is BIOS support, and you're good to go. (But please don't forget reliable LINUX support too, before it goes on sale!)

      --
      .
      == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
    31. Re:too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm surprised no-one's seen the market for this type of RAM on GFX cards yet. Inside the cards themselves, they canuse pretty much any bus architecture they like, so having 128 gig of ultra fast RAM on a gfx card will greatly improve things there, and probably cut down on size

    32. Re:too bad by afidel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually for most peoples desktop machines S-ATA and Ultra 320 SCSI are faster than their PCI busses (33Mhz-32bit PCI is only 133MB/s). Besides, who cares if the bottleneck moves to the physical connection, at least it is away from the slow arse hdd's of today (8+ms access time and slow max transfer vs .5ns access and fast as your bus can handle transfer). I would upgrade in a heartbeat. Plus removing on of the last important physical device would do wonders for improving the reliability of computers (the cpu and case fans are still there). To get the most out of this you might need to redesign things, but I would be willing to bet that the first uses are for retrofits, market inertia tends to work that way.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    33. Re:too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I agree. Although there would/could be some immediate advantages to this technology, assuming it can be made compatible with current architectures, I think this technology will take a while to really grab hold. Current bus speeds would leave most of the new found power battling for IO. But if it was affordable, I guess it doesn't matter.

      As far as being affordable, have you ever seen a company come out with the next best thing, and not milk it for every dollar for a few years before finally pricing it for Joe's Small Business or Joe Consumer?

      If I could wish for anything for this new technology, it would be a competitive marketplace, so maybe I can afford it before 2010.

    34. Re:too bad by cathouse · · Score: 1

      Agree with above, but I think that you are ALL missing the point that non-vol memory of this nature should mean an END to the entire concept of BOOTSTRAPPING except when a new machine is first activated [presumably at the fab].

      --
      Thelma, I'm not making ANY deals.
    35. Re:too bad by void* · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, I don't think so, actually.

      You still need a bootstrap that will go reset the memory and restart the OS.

      If you don't, what's going to happen is that some bug is going to manifest itself, and it's never going to go away because you have no method resetting it - if you turn the machine off, then on, the messed up driver (or whatever) comes back in exactly the same bogus state.

      Think about it. I've seen bad net (VPN) drivers for windows cause my normal networking drivers to be very slow once the vpn comes down, the only cure being a restart (when it happens, which is not often).

      So now, with, as you say, the death of the concept of bootstrapping, when that happens, I'd have to live with slow network drivers /forever/. This is just one example, there are *many* more, independent of operating system (I'm unfortunately forced to use Windows for work).

      You will still need the 'entire concept of bootstrapping', even if only as a cure to some other guys kernel-space bugs.

      --


      Code or be coded.
    36. Re:too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quoting from the article: The days of silicon-based memory may be numbered.
      They seem to think that their memory can be ready in a few short years or less, not 10 years. Very impressive, if they can do it.

    37. Re:too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither does QNX. Currently, the problem is to force the OS *not* to XIP (because you don't want it running out of flash - which is slow).

      Nanotube memory (if it performs as advertised) is simply the hardware industry *finally* catching up with the software industry (s/w types have wanted this capability for a very long time). There is no worry about the software being able to make use of it....

    38. Re:too bad by 42forty-two42 · · Score: 1

      When you remove the power, your key may be in RAM. If the NSA or whatever gets the chips, they won't use the randomizer.

    39. Re:too bad by jtdubs · · Score: 1

      Haha. Yes, I can see how if you meant an 8-hour working day then it would be possible. :-)

      I keep hoping they'll find some new tech that lets LCD's run on less power, but I'm not sure how it's possible. I mean, you have to provide enough power to get several million light-emitters to work at the right wavelength. Universal Display has some cool tech involving OLEDs, or Organic Light-Emitting Displays. It's functional to the point where they are using them for military applications. Although, honestly, I have no idea how their power consumption compares to traditional LCDs.

      One can always hope. Have a good day.

      Justin Dubs

    40. Re:too bad by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
      People are talking about how this will revolutionize RAM, but I think the first application would be to create a multiple-terabyte hard drive. Using current bus, i/o, etc. standards. Yes, it would be much slower than it theoretically could be but they could produce hard drives that would push data at the maximum bus speeds, and (it appears) wildly undercut the current hard drive manufacturers.

      Having a computer running with NRAM as its RAM would be great, but that would involve a whole redesign of the motherboard, processor, potentially operating system, etc. Making incremental changes, while not quite as whiz-bang revolutionary, would make more money and have more of an impact on the market.

      For examples just look at the revolutionary Itanium vs. AMD's evolutionary 64-bit chips. AMD can run current applications, so therefore has more potential marketspace.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    41. Re:too bad by aphor · · Score: 1

      Y'know what Stuart? I like you! You're not like the other people, here, in the trailer park!

      --
      --- Nothing clever here: move along now...
    42. Re:too bad by Hydraulinen_Androidi · · Score: 1

      "It's the queers. They're in it with the aliens. They're building landing strips for gay Martians, I swear to God" As a Hetero i am building a landing strip for all those babes from Venus.

    43. Re:too bad by cathouse · · Score: 1

      Your point is well made, but I think that yourconcept of bootstrapping and mine are very slightly divergent.
      I can still recall [with only minor pain] the procedure required to get *my* first computer, an IBM 1620, to start. First all the toggle switches on the console had to be set to in order to enable either the teletype [RTTY] or the card reader. Next one punch card, then another thirty or so, then the two or three hundred which contained the IOCS Supervisor. I could go on, but the dull throbbing between the temples, warns me not to. That WAS bootstrapping, and the exact same process is paralelled starting in what I always think of as the *BIOS inside the BIOS* and
      continuing. Scott Mueller describes the entire process in detail [and wonderful clairty] in the troubleshooting chapter in UPGRADING AND REPAIRING PC'S....and takes eight pages of small print to do it! That IS bootstrapping now.
      Re-setting the operating system to a referance state, which is what, as you point out, is still required from time to time COULD be a far simpler matter [given cheap NON-VOLATILE memory.

      --
      Thelma, I'm not making ANY deals.
    44. Re:too bad by Sri+Lumpa · · Score: 1

      "I mean, you have to provide enough power to get several million light-emitters to work at the right wavelength."

      I believe the power problem of LCD's has more to do with the need of a back/front-light consuming a lot of energy.

      OLED doesn't have such energy requirements because it is emitting enough light itself.

      --
      "The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
  2. story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    A new type of computer memory uses carbon, rather than silicon

    WAITING for a computer to turn on is a nuisance. That is why manufacturers have been trying to create "non-volatile" memories. These would be fast, like the random-access memory (RAM) chips that are currently used for often-accessed memory, but they would also continue to store information even without power, like hard drives, which are too slow to use except for long-term storage.

    Several technologies have been competing to become the standard for fast, non-volatile memory. The best known is magnetic RAM, which IBM and Motorola are touting. Others are based on polymers or on strange-sounding metal alloys called chalcogenides that change shape when an electric charge is applied to them. But there is now a new entrant to the field: carbon.

    Carbon comes in many forms. Diamonds and graphite are two of the most familiar ones. A less familiar variety is the nanotube, also known as a "buckytube" after Richard Buckminster Fuller, whose geodesic domes have a framework similar to the arrangement of the atoms in a nanotube. Nanotubes consist of a cylindrical array of carbon atoms whose diameter is only about 1 nanometre (a billionth of a metre). If Nantero, a firm based in Woburn, Massachusetts, proves correct, such tubes will soon be an integral part of computer memories.

    Nantero's memory chips consist of billions of nanotubes, each a few hundred nanometres long, suspended from a silicon wafer. Another wafer sits about 100 nanometres below the first. Because the nanotubes that Nantero uses conduct electricity, a small electric charge at one point on the second wafer will draw several dozen nanotubes towards it. Once they are there, they stay there. That is because they are bound by Van der Waals forces--intermolecular bonds that do not depend on external power for their maintenance. An additional application of current, however, will release the nanotubes. This means that a group of a few dozen nanotubes can act as a memory element, storing a single bit (either a one or a zero) of the binary code that computers use to operate. If the connection between the wafers is live at a particular point, the bit represented is a one. If not, it is a zero.

    If nanotubes were not so small, this would not be a big deal. Because they are, though, Nantero's technology can already achieve a data density considerably higher than existing RAMs. And because the wafers are so close together, those data can move rapidly from place to place. Nantero's new memory can read or write a bit in as little as half a nanosecond (billionth of a second). The best RAM chips, by contrast, need ten nanoseconds to perform a similar operation.

    At the moment, Nantero has only a working prototype. But the firm aims to have memories on the market within a year. It thinks it will be able to tool up for commercial production quickly, because the fabrication technique it uses, though novel, relies on standard semiconductor-making technology.

    The main difficulty faced by others who have tried to go down the buckytube route is getting the tubes to align with each other when they are hung from the first wafer. Until now, the approach has been to try to grow all of the tubes in the correct orientation to start with. But Nantero's founders came up with a simpler, if less elegant, solution. They use established lithographic techniques to get rid of tubes that are pointing in the wrong direction by zapping them with an electron beam. That leaves only those that are hanging down towards the opposite wafer.

    Though the recent chip is certainly impressive, the reason for getting excited about Nantero is not so much the present as the future. Unlike silicon, which is pushing against its physical limitations, carbon-nanotube technology is in its infancy. Greg Schmergel, Nantero's boss, says that within the next few years the firm's engineers may be able to achieve data densities of a trillion bits per square centimetre (more than 1,000 times that available on existing RAM) and it will be possible to read those memories 100 times faster than can be done at the moment. The days of silicon-based memory may be numbered

  3. Excellent... by inkedmn · · Score: 5, Funny

    Something else I can stare longingly at on newegg while knowing full well i'll have to sell my wife and 2 pints of plasma to actually buy it...

    --
    well, it's nothing one behind the ear wouldn't cure
    1. Re:Excellent... by jo_ham · · Score: 3, Funny

      Other readers of /. will also be eagarly anticipating this since it will finally enable scientists to build a memory big enough that can fit inside a head-shaped space to create their future wives.

    2. Re:Excellent... by MoOsEb0y · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      No offense, but quite a few readers at slashdot actually have a social life, do get laid, and have SOs/wives. I think the only person who should be made fun of are the people who sit there and bash nerds. Because, those are the people who are so juvenile that no girl could stand them. Except maybe a wannabe gangstress whore, but those want the guy who talks the most shit. So either way, yeah.

    3. Re:Excellent... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      It's all in jest, though.

      If you can't laugh at yourself [you being anyone] then life isn't going to be much fun.

      Just playing the stereotype joke.

    4. Re:Excellent... by MoOsEb0y · · Score: 1

      point taken. I apologize. I thought you were trolling.

    5. Re:Excellent... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      heh, no problem.

    6. Re:Excellent... by bestguruever · · Score: 3, Funny

      Sell my wife for this stuff? Nah, it can't be that cheap.

      --
      if you think this is bad, you should have seen my last sig
    7. Re:Excellent... by Troll_Kamikaze · · Score: 5, Funny

      knowing full well i'll have to sell my wife

      Well, you're off to a good start, having just placed an ad in perhaps the most undersupplied market in the world: Slashdot.

    8. Re:Excellent... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Something else I can stare longingly at on newegg while knowing full well i'll have to sell my wife and 2 pints of plasma to actually buy it...

      It'd be better to rent by the hour. All the profit, plus you still get the use of the merchandise.

    9. Re:Excellent... by anon*127.0.0.1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      That would lead to a wife who is smarter and has a better memory then me.

      I'm not sure that's quite what I want.

      --
      I am NOT a man!
      I am a free number!
    10. Re:Excellent... by SensitiveMale · · Score: 1

      You'll still come out ahead.

      And have peace of mind to boot.

    11. Re:Excellent... by Ioldanach · · Score: 1
      That would lead to a wife who is smarter and has a better memory then me.

      Mine already has a better memory than me. (heck, she remembers the context of our very first argument, 8 years ago)

  4. The dome is great by Blaine+Hilton · · Score: 2, Funny
    The implications of the geodesic dome are just being explored, if this new type of memory is anything like the dome I expect we will hear more good things about it in the future.

    --
    Need a calculator?

    1. Re:The dome is great by GrimReality · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      <Stale Humour>

      Did you say 'dome'?

      Great! Volkswagen Beetle PR will now have something new to spout nonsense about.

      </Stale Humour>

      Thanks for wasting your time.

      GrimReality
      2003-05-10 23:02:38 UTC (2003-05-10 19:02:38 EDT)

    2. Re:The dome is great by slug359 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      the webcalc crap is irritating, put it in your signature so I can turn it off please.

  5. Details by robbyjo · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's a little details that pretty much summarize the docs:

    How it works. Nantero's memory chips consist of billions of nanotubes, each a few hundred nanometres long, suspended from a silicon wafer. ... This means that a group of a few dozen nanotubes can act as a memory element, storing a single bit (either a one or a zero) of the binary code that computers use to operate. If the connection between the wafers is live at a particular point, the bit represented is a one. If not, it is a zero.

    Speed. Nantero's new memory can read or write a bit in as little as half a nanosecond.

    Availability. At the moment, Nantero has only a working prototype. But the firm aims to have memories on the market within a year.

    Hurdles. The main difficulty faced by others who have tried to go down the buckytube route is getting the tubes to align with each other when they are hung from the first wafer. Until now, the approach has been to try to grow all of the tubes in the correct orientation to start with. But Nantero's founders came up with a simpler, if less elegant, solution. They use established lithographic techniques to get rid of tubes that are pointing in the wrong direction by zapping them with an electron beam. That leaves only those that are hanging down towards the opposite wafer.

    --

    --
    Error 500: Internal sig error
    1. Re:Details by r00zky · · Score: 1

      > They use established lithographic techniques to get rid of tubes that are pointing in the wrong direction by zapping them with an electron beam. That leaves only those that are hanging down towards the opposite wafer.

      So amount of storage capacity will vary between two Nantero's memory unit of the same model?

      That would a ludopathic component when buying one of these... :P

      --
      I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
    2. Re:Details by Old+Wolf · · Score: 1

      They say the tubes are a few hundred nm long, and then say they're suspended between wafers 100nm apart. What gives?

    3. Re:Details by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      "Storage capacity" in conventional RAM chips varies, too. There are always defects and so on, but if you make redundant circuits, and add error correction circuits, you can still sell many of these chips as fully functional and reliable memory. Some studies have shown, for example, that redundancy increases the yield of RAM chips from ~1% to ~51%

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    4. Re:Details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      They say the tubes are a few hundred nm long, and then say they're suspended between wafers 100nm apart. What gives?

      Not sure, but this might yield a clue.

  6. Rest assured... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...with all the nanoBuckminsterfullertube advances that seem to have been touted recently, there's gonna be one hell of a party when the first product with the technology is rolled out past concept phase...

    "see, we told you it was useful!!"

  7. FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    please remember that if it costs so much that you have to "sell" you wife, then it wont be on newegg. Newegg does'nt deal in this kind of ultra-expensive items.

    On the other hand.. if you think your wife is worth 500-1000 $, my apologies.

  8. Wow by cethiesus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This guy is right...

    --


    "Ford," he said, "you're turning into a penguin. Stop it."
    1. Re:wow by JasonAsbahr · · Score: 1

      Same way they did with EPROMs, maybe?

    2. Re:wow by Eudial · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nanotubes can't have sex.

      --
      GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
    3. Re:wow by dAzED1 · · Score: 5, Funny
      "Though the idea of using a material that burns when exposed to a camera flash, for storage, is a little unnerving... Anyone know how they plan to address that and other problems/inherent properties of nanotubes?"

      Now, I'm not there, not involved with the company at all, but I'm going to venture a guess and say that maybe, just maybe, they won't have the nanotubes exposed and just lying around? Maybe, just maybe, the nanotube wafers will be, oh I dunno, enclosed in something? Cause where a flash would hurt it, I imagine a well-placed finger would hurt them too.

      Just a thought.

    4. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, we're not allowed to dream now? Don't be such such a killjoy - suspend your disbelief and Sean Connery will iron out the wrinkles for you in Act 4.

    5. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only the metallic tubes were destroyed in the flash experiment, the semiconducting ones lived on ....

      plus it does not make any difference, since packaging is (almost) trivial -- HOWEVER, take that with a grain of salt since the design of these Hahvahd people requires the tubes to bend under an applied electric field, thus you can't just package the device by covering it with a protective "goo", as that'll render the tubes immobile ...

      what i find interesting is that they made a device with "10 billion bits", and hopefully that's not just an integration over over the entire 6"-12" wafer ... otherwise, impressive work

      an emmaitee engineer

    6. Re:wow by doormat · · Score: 1

      Though the idea of using a material that burns when exposed to a camera flash, for storage, is a little unnerving... Anyone know how they plan to address that and other problems/inherent properties of nanotubes?

      No more of your fancy windows in computer cases.

      --
      The Doormat

      If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
    7. Re:wow by shaitand · · Score: 1

      really and here I thought cyber terrorist would get to enter a new age where all they do is bring a screwdriver and flash camera.

    8. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      neither can slashdot readers

    9. Re:Wow by putaro · · Score: 1

      There's a simple test for new technologies - if you see it on the cover of Popular Mechanics it will never happen.

    10. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Being at the school that discovered the flashy nano-tubes, I have had first hand experience with information regarding these. There are different arrangements of nano-tubes. Most nano-tubes are extremely stable, that is, are strong and chemically non-reactive, etc. The nano-tubes that burn when exposed to a flash do so because they are not of the more common variety. In the report, the researcher explained that he had taken a different approach to harvesting the nano-tubes, and this approach yielded different nano-tubes, ones that weren't as stable as the rest...

    11. Re:wow by Rick.C · · Score: 1
      Cause where a flash would hurt it, I imagine a well-placed finger would hurt them too.

      Good point. They really need to be finger-proof.

      I flip off my computer two or three times an hour.

      Usually with both hands.

      --
      You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
      "Math in a song is good."-Linford
  9. Now all we need by da5id · · Score: 3, Funny

    Get some people working on power supplys and rod logic, and dimond age here we come.

  10. Finally... by guynamedjohn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Someone should be able to make a decent mp3 player with this stuff...

    1. Re:Finally... by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Funny
      I just want to run Emacs as fast as Mozilla. ...ducks....

  11. wow by JanusFury · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is there anything nanotubes CAN'T do? It seems like new uses are being discovered for them every day.

    Though the idea of using a material that burns when exposed to a camera flash, for storage, is a little unnerving... Anyone know how they plan to address that and other problems/inherent properties of nanotubes?

    --
    using namespace slashdot;
    troll::post();
  12. Unfortunately by Lershac · · Score: 0

    Like alot of great ideas, a great technology does not mean success. There are so many other factors that have *nothing* to do with the technological greatness of the invention. Sad. I hope this survives and makes it to market, because this could *really* revolutionize information systems. There is no talk of manufacturing costs... any info anyone?

    --
    Chuck
    1. Re:Unfortunately by DreadSpoon · · Score: 1

      They said it uses standard semi-conductor manufacturing processes.

      While that's no real guarantee, it does imply it shouldn't be much more than what we currently spend on this stuff. Especially once they get to a big enough bulk the plants should be common and efficient. (initial implementations of facilities tend to be more expensive, from what I've gathered)

    2. Re:Unfortunately by dracocat · · Score: 1

      I would say--assuming this is a viable and workable item, that it would depend more on how much of this process they are claiming is theirs. So whether you or I can afford it is probably more directly related to how many different plants are manufacuring it.

    3. Re:Unfortunately by hpa · · Score: 1

      There are four parameters that contribute to the cost of standard semiconductors: the number of processing steps, die area (density), yield (the percentage of dies produced which is actually good), and packaging. The article implies that the density is extremely good, and packaging is presuambly standard stuff, so probably the main question is what kind of yield they can get.

  13. ummmmm... NO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "this finally the end of magnetic storage as well?"

    No, the computer industry is not going to adopt a single, proprietary memory format, regardless of how well it performs. (hint: see Rambus)

  14. What does that mean in practical terms? by wmspringer · · Score: 1

    >over 1 terabit per cm^2

    So, in terms of actual storage space in the computer, this means...what?

    1. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by capnjack41 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I guess it means lots of space (for data) in a small amount of (spatial) space. 120something GB in the space of your thumbnail.

    2. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by Vengie · · Score: 1, Funny

      Can we get that in libraries of congress per ipod please? hehehe....

      --
      When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. (Larry Wall)
    3. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A SWAG...If you assume that a typical drive has about 1.2" of usable platter radius (subtracting off spindle hole and space for the outside of the platter), you get about 29.2cm^2 of usable area per platter surface.

      The WD 250GB HD has 83GB per platter, or 41.5GB per side, 8 bits per byte, that's or about 11.4Gbits/cm^2.

      This technology purports to be on the order of 100x as dense...so basically you'll have plenty of room for pr0n.

    4. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      8 bits = 1 byte, therefore you could fit 125 gigs on the area the size of a postage stamp.

    5. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by kaamos · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually, it's cm^2, not inch^2, so make that about 1.5 TB on your thumbnail

      well... if your name is minime disregard this ;-)

      --
      In Canada, we don't fancy things like socks
    6. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by Dr+Reducto · · Score: 1

      It means a shared disk for memory and storage. Think a 40 gig partition for RAM(leave all programs running all the time), and then the rest for storage(a lot of porn).

    7. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by Old+Wolf · · Score: 1

      My thumbnail is much closer to 1 cm^2 than 1 in^2. Are you a sasquatch or something?

    8. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by Luke-Jr · · Score: 2, Funny

      I already leave all progs running all the time...

      --
      Luke-Jr
    9. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by Doppler00 · · Score: 1

      Let's say you had a memory module with 8 new nanotube chips that had a surface area of 1cm^2 each. This would be equivalent to 1 Terabyte in a single memory module! Right now 2GB and 4GB memory modules are available, but rare and expensive. Given that it's non volatile, you wouldn't even need a hard drive at that point.

    10. Re:What does that mean in practical terms? by thynk · · Score: 1

      >over 1 terabit per cm^2

      So, in terms of actual storage space in the computer, this means...what?

      If I do the math right, come out to 116.415 GB per cm^2. I have no idea how big your thumbnails are, so I'll refrian from putting it those terms.

      Imagine how much windows will bloat when these hit the market.

      --

      Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
  15. 1 terabit per cm^2? Hexadecimal? by Thinkit3 · · Score: 0

    Can anyone translate into hexadecimal? Of course just use m^2 so the radix doesn't figure into the unit.

    --
    -Libertarian secular transhumanist
  16. Re:get some priorities! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are obviously talking about the silicone pocket variety.

  17. Paper's far more efficient by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    1 terabit per cm^2...

    I can write a byte's worth on a cm^2 piece of paper; Just repeat many times and stack; when measuring measure from above.

  18. Check out the press release by Jack+Porter · · Score: 1
    here

    "Nantero, Inc. Creates an Array of Ten Billion Nanotube Bits on Single Wafer Standard Semiconductor Processes Used"

    Sounds like the real deal....

    1. Re:Check out the press release by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me? You look at their own website, not an independent news site of any kind, and conclude from their propoganda (not saying anything against them in particular, but all corporate websites are propoganda) that they must be "the real deal"?! Give me a break! What are you, 5 years old? How incredibly naive can you get.

      I'm not saying that they necessarily aren't "the real deal", but your post does absolutely nothing to prove that bold claim.

  19. And the skeptic says... by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Like any technology, I will only belive it once I can buy it. DVD-Ram is almost there. I'm still waiting for my reflective-LCD laptop. And where did the fuel cells for PDA's go?

    Bitter... No, not me.

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    1. Re:And the skeptic says... by gmarceau · · Score: 1

      Once slashdot was trumpetting the comming of futuristic flat plasma displays. (Read the comment, the number of naysayers is hillarious).

      OLED are just around the corner:

      Fuel cells are due for next year

      And after years of slashdot ranting about true-3d displays, holodecks are finally on sale!

      --
      This post was compiled with `% gec -O`. email me if you need the sources
    2. Re:And the skeptic says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Three examples out of hundereds of vaporware products. The naysayers are right most often. The hard part is figuring out when the are wrong before the product comes out. It's pretty easy to do what you did and says nothing about this technologies chances (slim).

  20. Jay! by Eudial · · Score: 1

    Now i can store infinite ammounts of pr0n in my memory!

    --
    GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
    1. Re:Jay! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Nope. It is still finite. It is larger, but still finite.

      When they come out with a drive (or whatever replacement name) that can store infinite amounts of data, I'll be at the front of the line after selling house, cars, first born son, etc. I would never again have to decide which mp3, pr0n, vcd, gamez, ebooks, etc. to delete to make room for new stuff.

  21. Riiight by Tuxinatorium · · Score: 0

    I'll believe it when its actually for sale. remember the story about petabyte dvds?

  22. Hmmm... by flatface · · Score: 1

    Doom 3 at a reasonable FPS, RAM drives to help the /. effect and Windows running at decent speeds? I wish...

    1. Re:Hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Q: What do you get when you make a Microsoft OS that runs a million times faster then before?

      A: You get a Microsoft OS that decides a million times faster that it wants to crash and destroy your hard drive.

      (Originally "dog" and "hump your leg". Anecdote from AI lectures.)

    2. Re:Hmmm... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      windows running at decent speeds?

      compared to now... yes... compared to anything else using the same technology? still no.

  23. Cool, but... by mr100percent · · Score: 1

    Does it resist EMP? Flux pods? Stray magnetism? Heck, would lots of radiation corrupt it?

    1. Re:Cool, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably not, but then neither do any of the technologies it's designed to replace.

    2. Re:Cool, but... by neverpsyked · · Score: 1

      Uhm, anyone who does research and development with carbon nanotubes is, by definition, smart. Something tells me that they wouldn't be marketing a product that experienced a critical failure every time the sun came up.

      --
      What if this weren't a hypothetical question?
  24. Will it be electronically durable? by RyanFenton · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Given the description of how it works, I wonder if it will be inherently less durable against electric shock than current hardware. We've heard the advantages, it'll be interesting to hear what the disadvantages might be. Things like failure rate and recovery methods come to mind. Definetly worth watching though!

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:Will it be electronically durable? by sketerpot · · Score: 1

      If they get the density near what they're trumpeting, I don't think there'll be all that much trouble with bit rot. I bet they could make a RAID-on-a-chip that would still have more space than you need just yet. Imagine memory RAID. That would be so cool....

    2. Re:Will it be electronically durable? by Galvatron · · Score: 1

      How do you figure? They're claiming memory densities up to 1000 times greater than currently possible. Of course, they don't discuss cost, but supposing it were similar to conventional RAM for a similarly sized chip, that'd be, what, maybe a terabyte? Sounds pretty good now, but they say it may be 3+ years off. By the time it arrives, hard drives will probably be around the same size, and we'll have found a way to fill it.

      --
      "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
    3. Re:Will it be electronically durable? by afidel · · Score: 1

      IBM chipkill memory which is commercially available from a number of vendors already does a form of RAID5 for memory. Also if you get it as implemented in HP Proliant servers it also has hotswap =) Now having it be essentially infinite write flash with 1,000X capacity would be cool.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  25. The Science Behind the Technology by citanon · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those who are interested, the Nantero's technology is based on earlier work in the lab of Charles M. Lieber. The original paper was published in the journal Science. Rueckes et al, Science, Vol 289, P. 94. Rueckes went on to found Nantero.

    The original experiment worked as follows:

    One rope of singled walled carbon nanotubes sits suspended above another in a crossbar configuration. When an electric charge is applied, the top nanotube rope bends downward, where it is held in place by van der waals attraction to the bottom rope. To deactivate the switch, another charge is applied to repel the bent nano-rope into its original position.

    This electromechanical switch works as a switch because of tunneling of electrons between the upper rope and the lower rope. When the ropes are sticking together, enough electrons tunnel from the upper to the lower, or vice versa so that one can measure a good signal, turning the switch on. When the ropes are apart, the tunneling conductance drops by several orders of magnitude, turning the switch off.

    The original experiment was done with bundles of carbon nanotubes. In principle, the concept should work at much higher densities for single nanotubes, but the technology still has hurdles to cross. Currently, the tubes conduct because ropes of tubes are likely to contain both semiconductor type and metal type tubes. Since metal type tubes are fantastic conductors, having even a few of them in a rope will allow a device to work. However, when one crosses the threshold to single nanotubes, the device will only work if the tubes are metal type. Hence, an important problem will be finding a way to produce only metal type single walled nanotubes. Currently, carbon nanotubes are produced in a mixture of semiconductor type and metal type nanotubes. It's difficult to control that property because it depends sensitively on the way the sp2 bonds on the nanotube sidewall line up, something that no one yet knows how to control.

    1. Re:The Science Behind the Technology by sl956 · · Score: 2, Informative


      Just one more link : a direct link to the Nantero press release (pdf).

    2. Re:The Science Behind the Technology by Jeffrey+Baker · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a really small latching relay. DO you think they are inventing a new, wonderful type of ram that is also unfortunately sensitive to physical shock?

    3. Re:The Science Behind the Technology by citanon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Considering the forces involved, I doubt that physical shock will jar one of these junctions loose.

  26. Better be well shielded by geekee · · Score: 1

    Sounds like this type of memory will be extremely sensitive to radiation, making single event upsets of stored bits very likely.

    --
    Vote for Pedro
    1. Re:Better be well shielded by Cleveland+Steamer · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a job for ECC.

    2. Re:Better be well shielded by ocelotbob · · Score: 1

      true...or just ensure that the memory uses some sort of error correction code to ensure that single bit errors aren't propogated. If this technology does provide the kind of densities it promises, then building in some sort of ECC is really not that painful

      --

      Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses

    3. Re:Better be well shielded by caluml · · Score: 1

      They'll maybe have to use RAID for memory. 2 banks of 1 Tb RAM, mirrored.

  27. Finally... by gallir · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'll be able to start a Java applet in Mozilla running on top of KDE.

    Just kidding, in fact I just want to run Nautilus.

    --
    sgis ddo ekil t'nod i
  28. Great for security, too! by Jade+E.+2 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Replacing SDRAM (or RAMBUS or whatever) with some type of NVRAM will require a whole new approach to security. Otherwise, when you go home at night, what's to stop me from booting your computer (off a CD or floppy if it's reasonably secure), or rebooting it if you left it running but locked, and running an app that allocates a couple gigs of memory without initializing it then lets me browse it? Encryption keys, passwords, anything that's cached I could get. (Wouldn't care about anything stored on the disk, or other permanent media, I could get those with this method now.) Or, you could just initialize the memory on boot, but then you lose the advantages of nvram like the ability to shut down then pick right back up where you left off.

    You couldn't even track it by user at the OS level (user a has memory x and y allocated, so user b can't use that.) because I could still boot it into a different OS through a removable drive...

    Of course, you could just eliminate all caches of keys or passwords... But do you really want to have to re-enter your slashdot password everytime you hit refresh, or click on a link to the comments page, or click to read a reply?

    Maybe the solution would be to specify a certain area of RAM that would get initialized on power-up (be it a reboot or just waking up from an NVRAM suspend), and get apps to put any sensitive information in that area... Which would probably require additions to your favorite OS's API, in addition to new versions of a lot of apps...

    Just thinking 'out loud' here... Anybody else thought about this?

    1. Re:Great for security, too! by egburr · · Score: 1
      Have you heard of the power-on password in the bios? Of course, with physical access to the machine, you could get around that, too.

      Otherwise, as you point out, what you describe is no different than accessing the hard disk to collect data.

      --

      Edward Burr
      Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
    2. Re:Great for security, too! by Exitthree · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how you boot another operating system while the computer is in a suspended state (even if it is powered off). When you switch OSes now don't you have to specify what to boot from? If not, it shouldn't be hard to program the firmware to only allow operating system switches from cold boot. I think a greater problem is having someone actually steal the RAM chip with data cached on it.

      However, that problem can be solved by making the RAM locking mechanism on the motherboard have a locking spring. The spring will generate a charge when it is released making enough energy to initialize the RAM on the chip, protecting it from data theft.

    3. Re:Great for security, too! by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      (Wouldn't care about anything stored on the disk, or other permanent media, I could get those with this method now.)

      But do you really want to have to re-enter your slashdot password everytime you hit refresh, or click on a link to the comments page, or click to read a reply?

      Slashdot authentication is stored in a cookie called "user". Browsers typically save cookies to a file on your hard drive, and may do so even if the cookie is set to expire at the end of the current session - the cookie could simply be deleted the next time the browser is launched. I don't know which browsers behave this way, but I suspect at least some do.

      Browsers should start encrypting their cookie files, the way many of them encrypt other types of passwords.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    4. Re:Great for security, too! by thynk · · Score: 1

      Otherwise, when you go home at night, what's to stop me from booting your computer (off a CD or floppy if it's reasonably secure), or rebooting it if you left it running but locked, and running an app that allocates a couple gigs of memory without initializing it then lets me browse it?

      End of day now - lock computer. Go home.

      End of day then - lock computer, eject user memory space. Put user memory space in [lockbox|safe|pocket]. Go home.

      Of course, all OSes have some way of protecting your data from other users. Evem winders has *some* level of protection in the 2k and XP series. If you don't my know my domain password or the domain admin password - it's a non-trivial exericise to get data off my account.

      With Ram 10x faster than we have today, it would be feasable to encrypt the user data on the fly, would it not?

      I'll look forward to this tech in the computer industy, but then again, I'm *still* looking for those papercell phones from years past.

      --

      Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
    5. Re:Great for security, too! by shaitand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually I think this will be great for extremely secure storage, because of one simple fact, the nanotubs are sensative to light to the point they explode from a camera flash. That means in extremely secure installations with sensative data it's better to lose than have someone else recover they can use this as a failsafe mechanism when physical security has been breeched, you must pass voice and retina authentication, place your hand on the plate and click your heels three times... if your not the right guy then POOF you see a flash of light, data is destroyed.

    6. Re:Great for security, too! by theLOUDroom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Replacing SDRAM (or RAMBUS or whatever) with some type of NVRAM will require a whole new approach to security. Otherwise, when you go home at night, what's to stop me from booting your computer (off a CD or floppy if it's reasonably secure), or rebooting it if you left it running but locked, and running an app that allocates a couple gigs of memory without initializing it then lets me browse it?

      Technically, you're right. If someone wanted real security, they would have to make some changes to the OS&Apps and/or system acritecture.

      But really, you have to look at the reality of your system right now. Unless your disk is encrypted, and you need something like a smartcard to access the data, you're hosed if someone gets physical access to your machine even once.
      There's nothing that stops them popping open your case or booting from CD and copying your whole HD onto their Ipod or whatever. Even if the important bit of info they want is your password, they can always install a keylogger, and have that send them an email with your password (or even post is to a messageboard somewhere, just to aviod being traced).

      Actually, I'm willing to state a stronger case. You are screwed if someone can get (unsupervised) physical access to your machine. Period. Even if you encrypt everything. There are so many clever things someone could do to your system in order to get your data that you just could never know you're safe.

      I mean, even if you have the system wipe passwords from this new RAM on power down, it won't protect you. I could just open up your case, and stop the clock. All of a sudden, none of that stuff designed to wipe your data is working. I can then hook a logic analyzier and pattern generator up to your RAM, and just read out all your data. If your system wipes its RAM too frequently for that, I could just have an ASIC fabbed and put in on a little board which plugs in between your motherboard, and your RAM.

      The only way to stop this is to basically turn your RAM into and uber-smartcard, but even then, it's possible to hack a smartcard too.

      I guess my point is your thoughts are basically academic. Yes, this tecnology would add another way to exploit physical access to a PC, but there are already so many of those that I really don't think it matters. The only way you're going to get real security from someone with physical access to the system is to encrypt all chip-to-chip interconnections, and use whatever neat packaging technology the military uses for the chips in its military GPS units. Not very likely to happen.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    7. Re:Great for security, too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your can count on absolutely ZERO security if people have physical access to your machine.

      Use whatever encryption or security precautions you like. At the very least, a keyboard sniffer can easily compromise the enitre system.

      This technology changes nothing.

    8. Re:Great for security, too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only way you're going to get real security from someone with physical access to the system is to encrypt all chip-to-chip interconnections, and use whatever neat packaging technology the military uses for the chips in its military GPS units

      Even chip-to-chip encryption wont help against a keyboard snifer or even easier, a strategically placed webcam.

    9. Re:Great for security, too! by davburns · · Score: 1
      If an attacker has physical access to a computer, that computer is not secure.

      The same "capture the ram" process could be used to capture disk images, including swap/paging space.

    10. Re:Great for security, too! by caino59 · · Score: 1

      a secure computer does not allow booting from removeable media, network. It has a password protected BIOS, and a good strudy locked case.

      and lacks an operating system, or any information for that matter ;oP

    11. Re:Great for security, too! by sean23007 · · Score: 1

      But if these chips are eventually used to replace hard drives, this would be detrimental to people who want to move their drive to another machine and keep the data on it. Like if you had it filled with 100 GB of mp3/avi files that you wanted to move to your new computer... you wouldn't want that highly touted "non-volatile" memory to zap itself if you ever tried to move it, would you? On the other hand, a certain company, let's call them Microsoft, might be very interested in the destruction of data on removable of components from a system.

      --

      Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
    12. Re:Great for security, too! by fireboy1919 · · Score: 1

      So...what you're saying is that it's easy to peel open the light protection layer in RAM and expose it to a flash automatically? It's easy to build a physical mechanism to which includes moving parts and a flash bulb that actually does this?

      Personally, I think that just hooking the data read/write head up to a high voltage source making it into a powerful electromagnet that will make all the data on the harddrive unreadable is a lot easier. You could even make the modification to existing designs without adding new parts. Nice thought though.

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    13. Re:Great for security, too! by Repugnant_Shit · · Score: 1

      Let your NanoRAM be encrypted too. Supply the passphrase at boot.

    14. Re:Great for security, too! by bobbozzo · · Score: 1
      POOF you see a flash of light, data is destroyed.

      Like the memory eraser in MIB!

      --
      Nothing to see here; Move along.
    15. Re:Great for security, too! by danila · · Score: 1

      Graphic input, like that using a mouse, can be more secure than typing. How are you going to sniff my mouse movements? Especially if the software introduces random changes to the mouse position, so that I have to use visual feedback (cursor position on the screen) to adjuse the mouse movements.

      Unless you have a camera (and it is easier to spot than a keylogger) or record the output from the videocard (which requires helluva RAM, although with nanotube ram it's going to be easier to do, and a powerful device overall), you can't know what I clicked on.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    16. Re:Great for security, too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got a thought,
      Stay the FUCK away from my computer.
      If you touch it, YOU WILL DIE!!!

  29. Another Idea? by Buzz_Litebeer · · Score: 1

    Instead of using these directly as ram, could they sell them as a ram drive? Basically just have some software supporting it, but have the harddrive at boot just start dumping itself onto this nano drive thing. and at some point do a switchover to that being say.. the C drive?

    after about 30 minutes an entire hard drive could be there, and it could connect via some standard connector. use the hard drive as secondary storage backup, and when the machine turns off, it dumps the harddrive back on it at bootup.

    Of course I havent really gone through the idea hurtles on the thinking on that, but just an idea ;-)

    --
    If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
  30. Compatible by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 1

    You don't really want it compatible with RAM. What OS could possibly address it?

    I'm betting that when this first comes on the market, it's packaged in hard-disk sized boxes and has a SCSI connector.

    1. Re:Compatible by ocelotbob · · Score: 1
      You don't really want it compatible with RAM. What OS could possibly address it?

      Pretty much any *n?x these days would be able to address the RAM, provided you used a processor that could address 64 bits of RAM. Yeah, desktop OSes would need to be rewritten to handle such memory, but server OSes are already capable of accessing this memory and then some.

      --

      Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses

    2. Re:Compatible by shaitand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      as I said buried in another thread, in the overall scheme of things this should require relatively small changes, remember we are talking about replacing disk and ram. The kernel handles access to these and can already address very large amounts of memory. The hardware would actually work as a harddrive and would have a swap partition that the kernel uses as "simulated" memory so it doesn't break existing applications that have things like say... variables. Or it could be a file on the disk in which this virtual memory structure exists and you pass the amount of "memory" you want to the kernel on boot... or course MS would fail to address this issue fast enough and finally will be left in the dust.

  31. So should I postpone buying my new computer? by abhikhurana · · Score: 2, Funny

    The subject says it all....

    1. Re:So should I postpone buying my new computer? by jimmywiseacre · · Score: 1

      Unless you're trying to use a P166 with 32MB of RAM with modern games/apps, no.

  32. Density by h4x0r-3l337 · · Score: 1

    How did we go from "within the next few years the firm's engineers may be able to achieve data densities of a trillion bits per square centimetre" (quote from the article, emphasis mine), to "promises to deliver densities of over 1 terabit per cm^2" ?? There is no promise there, just a "maybe".

  33. Working Prototype - Size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is how big their protoptype is from their website:

    "Dr. Thomas Rueckes, Chief Scientific Officer
    and Co-Founder said, "This gets around
    the problem that nanotubes cannot reliably be
    grown in large arrays. At the end of our
    process only the nanotubes in the correct
    positions are remaining. This process was
    used to make a 10Gb array now, but could easily
    be used to make even larger arrays--
    the main variable now controlling the size is the
    resolution of the lithography equipment."

  34. Re:I'm so proud to be an American :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You mean they are Mormons?

  35. More than this by Kwil · · Score: 1

    It also means you could put your entire hard-drive onto a credit card and have enough room to add your genetic sequence to encrypt it all with.

    --

    That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze

  36. How about motherboards? by axxackall · · Score: 3, Funny
    Still 200Mhz for system bus? With all those 4Ghz CPU and nanotube-based memory, seems to me that the motherboards is the worst part of the PC.

    Oops, sorry. I forgot cases, where usually there is not enough of power sockets and spaces for additional hard-drives. And don't forget floppy drives - they are still here, in most PCs I see in the store.

    I can easyly imagine to see, in a year or two, a PC with several TB of nanotube-based RAM and 1.44MB floppy drive, all connected to AOL with 56K modem.

    --

    Less is more !
    1. Re:How about motherboards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      haha so true

    2. Re:How about motherboards? by UrGeek · · Score: 1

      Yea, but if this terabit/cm2 RAM ever matches the price of hard drives, you will not need ANY hard drives. A terabit is 128 gigabytes, Bucky! All you will need is two bays one for a Blu-Ray DVD burner and another for a reader.

      Daddy like!

    3. Re:How about motherboards? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1
      Yes using standard motherboards you can have great capacity but the bus will be the speed bottleneck.

      However we can still have alot of benefits as soon as this comes out!

      Loading Windows2k, mozilla, and openoffice would be almost instantaneous on startup, even with the bus bottleneck. Ask anyone with a ram drive? Todays storage is slow as hell with primptive hard drives. In the 21st century its silly to keep using mechanically based storage methods. Its so early 20th when tapes and punch cards ruled the scenes.

      But with a cm2/terribt capacity, how hard would it be to integrate this onto the cpu or cpu cartridge? Maybe Intel could do a pentiumIV style cartridge with the nanotube ram as a cache wired directly to the cpu?

      This would requite some chipset redesigns and would scare the hell out of all the memory chip makers but its possible. It would be mostly compatible with what we have today. The chipset and cpu just sees this as very fast and huge cache.

      You can also get rid of ram altogher. Its only there as a buffer to the slow hard drive.

    4. Re:How about motherboards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      P-IV doesn't come in a cartridge, perhaps you're thinking of the slot1 P2/P3 or the P-Pro (with two dies in a single package).

    5. Re:How about motherboards? by axxackall · · Score: 1
      You don't get it: with or without hard-drives, you still have to send bytes between CPU and RAM. In case of terrabytes it can be a real problem.

      Very small % of people use PCs for pirating DVDs. Most people solve real tasks on teir computers and those tasks require very intensive calculations. And I don't see any good progress of motherboard design matching the progress of RAM and CPU.

      --

      Less is more !
    6. Re:How about motherboards? by UrGeek · · Score: 1

      1) I get the CPU-RAM bottleneck - so what? It is NOTHING compared to the RAM-hard drive bottleneck, nothing at all. One step at a time. Maybe the same nanotube tech that shrinks RAM can shrink CPU logic and it all fit on a nice single chip with optical I/O.

      2) Who the HELL said a damn thing about priating DVD's? You have a filthly mind. The Blu-Ray DVD burner (or better) is to backup the 128 or gigabytes of RAM. Sure it is non-volatile, but you still want to backup your data and archive stuff. A second reader lets you watch movies or listen to music during other activites. I am sure writing a big DVD is long process. You might want to hear In-a-gidda-da-vida, baby, after your halfway through.

    7. Re:How about motherboards? by kylearin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why not just have an auxiliary memory bus with another of these modules in a removable cartridge/card/memory stick and have the CPU sync them for the backup? It would certainly be faster than transferring that amount of data in a linear fashion.

    8. Re:How about motherboards? by axxackall · · Score: 1

      If you copy files than RAM-HDD is your bottleneck. If you work with mission critical databases, then it's most likely you've tuned it to be cached in memory. And you know what? Then you will understand what I mean by CPU-RAM bottleneck. Other people who understand it: who compile a lot, graphical designers, video editors.

      --

      Less is more !
    9. Re:How about motherboards? by UrGeek · · Score: 1

      Media cost. Right now, for example, you can find 10 DVD-R's for 47 gigabytes of backup for about $10-15. And if you only have 600-700 mb to burn and share with a friend, there are those dirt cheap CD-R's. I cannot imagine that nanotube RAM would be THAT cheap anytime soon.

      Not that I would mind!

    10. Re:How about motherboards? by UrGeek · · Score: 1

      Damn, what a pit bulldog you are! I have been aware of the CPU-RAM bottleneck for about 25 years now. But who cares? It is just not relevant to this thread.

      This is my final word on the issue.

  37. Screw the memory applications.... by poptones · · Score: 3, Interesting
    If this is that fast (half a nS actuation time) and static as well, the implications go well beyond memory applications. OR gates, AND gates and flip/flops (every single nanotube is a complete f/f) are the building blocks of every CPU out there. What about a 128 bit CPU that didn't need an air conditioner to keep from destruction? A CPU with a 1nS clock cycle time and a few MB of on chip cache?

    It's a very cool idea, but I'm wondering why they didn't mention these issues. Is it an unmentioned limitation of the technology, or a limitation of the Economist's journalistic scope?

    1. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by baywulf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "A CPU with a 1nS clock cycle time and a few MB of on chip cache?"

      Just to remind you, 1ns == 1GHz. What is the clock speed on the latest Pentium/Athlon?

    2. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by Old+Wolf · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Goes well beyond gates - unix people might use this too. (That is, if the RIAA doesnt outlaw it because it means you can pirate every single song it owns at once)

      CPUs already have a few mb of onchip cache these days, dont they?

    3. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by rtaylor · · Score: 1

      More to the point, what is the speed of the transistors in the latest Pentium / Athlon.

      The clock speed is the time it takes to go through the longest segment of the pipe. A few hundred transistors if its anything of any use at all.

      --
      Rod Taylor
    4. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      with the potential size their talking about how about integrating memory, large storage and the cpu into one chip?

    5. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      That's funny, I always thought that the clock speed was the frequency at which a crystal oscillated.

      It's got nothing to do with 'the longest segment of the pipe'

    6. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by putaro · · Score: 1

      Well, as you said, they're flipflops, not gates. You can build flipflops out of gates, but you can't build gates out of flipflops.

    7. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by poptones · · Score: 2, Informative
      A gross oversimplification. There is much more to it than simple clock speed - for example, how much work can it do in one cycle? How much power does it dissipate?

      This is a static and nonvolatile technology. Think of a CPU that can be dynamically switched to zero hz while keeping its state - a complete machine that can be frozen and reawakened in an instant.

      If you have the memory structure, why not have 256 bit parallel data paths? Or, why not have megabytes of fast memory right on the CPU die? Or arrays of fast CPUs, each with (say) half a gig of fast nonvolatile (ahem) "cache?"

      Anyone remember "Transputer?"

      From the description it should be as easy to make an AND or OR gate as it is to make a flipflop, since each nanotube is just a switch. Seems logical there are far deeper applications for this than just memory arrays. Or, since the speed and density are both there, perhaps a doorway to fast associative arrays?

    8. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by poptones · · Score: 1

      I see you're not an EE major...

    9. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by bestguruever · · Score: 1

      Every nanotube is a flip flop? One pop top could blow out the whole chip.

      .... one two many margaritas

      --
      if you think this is bad, you should have seen my last sig
    10. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      A cpu is different because you have to determine how much work a cpu can do per clock tick. Same applies here. Also 1ghz is just a crystal oscilate frequency. Thats it.

      Lets look at data paths and transfers?
      If you have a 512 bit data path, you could have 1ns per path which using your math would be 512 ghz of total data! This is extremely unscientific and I am not an EE engineer but my point is the 1ns is just the access time to recieve 1 bit of data. Thats it. Using large sets of data and large paths could yield different results if the path to the ram is wide.

      Keep in mind hard drives are considered hundreds and even thousands of times as slow as current ram. But access time differences are only in multiples of 10's. Obviously data transfer rates are why this is. Otherwise if you are correct ram today which is about 10ns( standard speed) would be useless on any cpu over 100mhz. 100mhz = 10ns.

      Since there is a huge difference between a 3 ghz pIV and a 300mhz pII I have to disagree with this bottleneck.

    11. Re:Screw the memory applications.... by rtaylor · · Score: 1

      A gross oversimplification.

      In regards to the comment I was responding to it isn't. Yes, lots goes into the full speed of a CPU, but the parent post was suggesting that a current day CPU design operating on this new material would be 1Ghz.

      I was trying to show this is false as it comares a single switch to a pipe segment as a whole.

      The slowest pipe segment generally determines upper end of clock speed -- though some segments have been known to be double or quad pumped.

      --
      Rod Taylor
  38. MySQL Databases in ram by ExEleven · · Score: 1

    There was an article I seen on newsforge not to long ago about MySQL using RAM databases.

    The article can be found here with my original commentary (which i cant be bothered repeating).

  39. Cache by irecleas · · Score: 1

    This will be amazing, Intel and AMD will license the technology.
    Imagine a CPU with 1GB of L1 cache. All of windows in cache, now that's a fast boot.

    1. Re:Cache by spydir31 · · Score: 1

      This will be amazing, Intel and AMD will license the technology.
      Imagine a CPU with 1GB of L1 cache. All of windows in cache, now that's a fast boot.

      True, but wouldn't you like something else in there too?

  40. Now HERE's a really strong argument... by constantnormal · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... for 64-bit addressing.

    If you have this wonderfully fast and compact memory, the simplest way to exploit it is to access it in a linear manner with a whompin' huge address space.

    Who needs VM? -- Actually, we'll still need mechanisms to isolate processes from each other, so virtual addressing will still have a place. But not as a means to accomodate logical address spaces larger than physical address spaces.

    I want a fuel-cell powered, IBM 970 Powerbook with buckytube memory and an OLED display. Never mind the power switch, I'll just refuel it every other month or so.

  41. Ok thats it... by Blacklotuz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Where do I invest in this nanotube technology. Every 10 seconds these thigns have another use that is lighyears ahead of anything we have now. One day I'll wake up and pull off my Nanotube based dirt proof - tempeture regulated blankets, step out of bed and go to the bathroom where I turn on my nanotube fillament based lights which last 10,000 years. I'll use the nanotube based super computer inside my razor to give me the perfect shave with no razor burn. Then Ill head into the kitchen and pour myself a big bowl of nanotube-crunch...

    But seriously, is there anything these thigns can't do? And where can I get a peice of the action?

    1. Re:Ok thats it... by thynk · · Score: 1

      One day I'll wake up and pull off my Nanotube based dirt proof - tempeture regulated blankets, step out of bed and go to the bathroom where I turn on my nanotube fillament based lights which last 10,000 years. I'll use the nanotube based super computer inside my razor to give me the perfect shave with no razor burn. Then Ill head into the kitchen and pour myself a big bowl of nanotube-crunch...

      You forgot a few things here. You wake up when the nanotech chip placed in your wrist sends the wakeup call directly to your brain and reminds you that you have a doctors appointment in one hour to see how the nanotech anti-cancer pills you've been taking are dealing with the cancer they found last week. As you put on your shoes, the nanotubes in the soles adjust themselves to your foot after making sure that they are fungus free.

      After breakfast of nanotube crunch (cleans your teeth as you eat it) and getting dressed in your nanotube stain resistant clothing (that also smells nice).

      You unplug your house from your car and sit in the nanotube based seat, surrounded with nanotube coated plastic car frame that's stronger than steel. You speak a command to the computer, which knows it's you as it's already synced itself with your nanotech supercomputer watch that authenticates with the chip in your wrist. It asks if you're heading to the doctor's office and starts to drive you there.

      As you pull into the parking lot, the car computers alerts the doctor's computer that you're here on time and checks you in. You still sit in the waiting room for 30 mintutes (somethings never change) and when you're done, you head out to work.

      I could go on and on with this new tech stuff, but I think we've both made our points clear...

      Sheesh, come to think of it, I think I need to invest in some of this stuff too!

      --

      Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
  42. Look out! Here comes the RIAA by mark-t · · Score: 1
    Clearly, people will use this technology to further facilitate media piracy. [end facetious mode]

    Wanna bet that the RIAA's gonna want a tax so high on this technology that it will become completely impractical to ever own?

  43. how do we dispose of them by jago25_98 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Interesting, but how do we get rid of them safely without getting the nanotube particles into our lungs etc, or is this not a problem?

    1. Re:how do we dispose of them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt that nanotubes would cause much damage if inhaled, but wouldn't it be encased in plastic anyway?

    2. Re:how do we dispose of them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bots, just say no to sniffing your RAM chips.

    3. Re:how do we dispose of them by ivan256 · · Score: 2, Funny

      How do you keep particles of RAM out of your lungs now? I'd go with the same method.

    4. Re:how do we dispose of them by g4dget · · Score: 1

      You get lots of nano-particles into your lungs every day, much of it from Diesel engines and coal power plants. Before worrying about NRAM, we should worry about those first.

  44. The Onion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article almost, but not quite, reads like an article from The Onion!

  45. duh? " could get those with this method now" by mrnick · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It doesn't change anything. Like you said you can get this now. I work in security and ANY system that a knowledgeable person can lay hands on they OWN it. As part of my job I do security audits and I have this little stickers that say "I OWN THIS" if I can get close enough to put a sticker on it then the statement is true. I doubt that will every change, but who knows what the future holds.

    --

    Encryption: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to encrypt it...
  46. bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this article is a fake, really.

  47. This Just In . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Scientists at MIT announced today the latest in a long series of commercially viable nanotube products. Following up ultrastrong rope, room-temperature superconductors, and ultra fast and dense memories, they unveiled the worlds smallest, lightest sippy straw.

    While some problems remain with the "BuckyStraw", they have demonstrated a mosquito using one to enjoy a blood feast through an alpacca sweater. Among the barriers to full commercialization are figuring out how to bend the little buggers to make high tech SillyStraws, fabricate little folds so they can be bent to allow sipping while reclining, and reducing the internal friction so that ordinary humans, not just $1,000 an hour prostitutes, can produce enough suction to raise fluids more than a few angstroms in height.

    A comercial product is expected within a year. Interested investors can post their email address or PayPal account number for a prompt courteous reply.

  48. Props on the news title. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Best news article title ever.

  49. Security by glasslit · · Score: 1

    Couldn't they encrypt the cache or something like that to secure it?

    --
    glass.com/ing
  50. I wonder.... by Maimun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    how are they going to wire the thing? Suppose the nanotubes are grown, properly aligned and so on. How are they going to place the wires between them? AFAIK, the current technology for wiring the chips is exactly the same that puts the transistors, namely the photo-process. Obviously, this si not going to work on the scale of nanotubes.

    1. Re:I wonder.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo! It's a silicon chip that uses nanotube positions to store data. The article says that, then ends with this stupid line, "The days of silicon-based memory may be numbered." I guess they think silicon-nanotub-based memory doesn't cound as silicon-based memory. Strange.

  51. Encrypted cookies by nuntius · · Score: 1

    Umm no. Cookies were never meant to be part of a secure layer. They are transmitted in plaintext over non-secure layers (e.g. http). Therefore the damage is done before your browser even saves the cookies to the hard drive.

    Why not encrypt them anyway? So the user can readily verify what the cookes are storing. So the user can see where they are from, and delete cookies he doesn't like.

    Encrypting cookies on the hard drive would simply treat one symptom without addressing the problem

    1. Re:Encrypted cookies by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      They are transmitted in plaintext over non-secure layers (e.g. http).

      This is true, and anyone with a packet sniffer on a router can read your cookies (among other things) while you browse the web. However, while you're NOT browsing the web, anyone WITHOUT a packet sniffer who has access to your hard drive can ALSO read your cookies. Encryption here would be a security measure designed to stop one type of snooping, not another.

      Besides, aren't cookies also used for HTTPS, which is encrypted on the network?

      Why not encrypt them anyway? So the user can readily verify what the cookes are storing. So the user can see where they are from, and delete cookies he doesn't like.

      I never do this by editing the raw data file on the hard drive; I do this from a GUI interface within my browser. Obviously my browser would know how to decrypt the file, and can continue to offer me the same level of control over my cookies as I currently have.

      Encrypting cookies on the hard drive would simply treat one symptom without addressing the problem

      Which problem are you referring to, then?

      When I make a web site that stores sensitive information in a cookie, I encrypt the string that gets stored in the cookie, as well as taking other measures to prevent spoofing. Not all sites do this.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  52. Best way around this? by doublem · · Score: 1

    Flush the RAM as part of the shutdown procedure.

    Modify the Kernel so the last thing it does is wipe the RAM clean.

    It has to be on shutdown, or someone can pop open the computer and take out the RAM without booting it.

    Or, design each RAM chip to dump its own data if it doesn't get a fresh charge from the motherboard every so often. This way, even if all attempts to flush RAM fail, the chip wipes itself clean before the power LED fades.

    --
    "Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
    1. Re:Best way around this? by bo-eric · · Score: 1
      Or, design each RAM chip to dump its own data if it doesn't get a fresh charge from the motherboard every so often.


      Yes! You've just invented a way of converting insecure, non-volatile RAM into the much more secure , volatile variant. Hurry to the Patent office! Perhaps we could do the same for hard disks? No more sensitive data lying around!
      --

      -- Free speech is only free if your time is worth nothing.
    2. Re:Best way around this? by doublem · · Score: 1

      Well, we'd only wnat such a chip in the memory destined for use as RAM.

      Sad thing is, I probably COULD get a patent on it if I wanted to.

      --
      "Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
  53. SCSI?! What a waste! by rebelcool · · Score: 1
    Why would you waste the speed of such a thing with a SCSI connector? SCSI is *really, really, really* slow compared to this. I mean, SCSI is meant for mechanical drive speeds with millisecond seek times. Not nanosecond. If you were to see this adapted for existing machines, it *might* use PCI for the transfer, but even then PCI is really slow too.

    Using this technology requires rebuilding entire system busses to use it effectively.

    --

    -

  54. Libraries of Congress measurement by Dreamweaver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, if you use an 8 terabyte equivalence for 1 Library of Congress (the actual definition seems to be a bit slippery, and that's the first one I found on a Googling)...

    Theoretical Nano-Ram storage capacity == 1x10^12 bits / cm^2
    1x10^12 bits = 1.25x10^11 bytes = 116.4 Gigabytes
    That's 0.114 Libraries of Congress per cm^2.

    An iPod, according to Apple's website, is 4.1 by 2.4 inches (it's also .62 to .73 inches thick, but since we don't know how thick nano-ram is, let's just assume a wafer the size of an iPod).

    1in = 2.540cm
    4.1in = 9.840 cm
    2.4in = 6.096 cm

    Let's chop a cm off each of those to account for the casing, structural bits, and soldering points that aren't actually storage space. That gives us a size of 8.840cmx5.096cm for our hypothetical nanoPod (so on a tangent, how long before some company introduces the new 'e' and starts dubbing products 'nRAM', the 'nPod', 'nTel nSide', etc?). That's a surface area of 45.049cm^2.
    Given our previous determination that we can store 0.114 LoC on 1cm^2, we arrive at a figure of 5.136 LoC/i(or LoC/n for nPod, as the case may be).

    --


    "If a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live" -- MLK, Jr.
    1. Re:Libraries of Congress measurement by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

      --Holey Crap, FORTY TERABYTES on something the size of an iPod?? Can you imagine trying to DEFRAGMENT that thing?! You'd need another one just to have the extra memory for the defragger program...

      --
      .
      == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
    2. Re:Libraries of Congress measurement by Scarblac · · Score: 1

      That's a surface area of 45.049cm^2. Given our previous determination that we can store 0.114 LoC on 1cm^2, we arrive at a figure of 5.136 LoC/i(or LoC/n for nPod, as the case may be).

      Apple's online music store launched with 200K+ songs. If we take 200K, and say an mp3 is 5MB, then all their songs is 1 TB. Or 1/40th nPod.

      Before long, we're going to need a new unit, or we'll be talking about kilolibraries and so on...

      I wonder how much space it takes to store all music ever released by record companies losslessly compressed?

      --
      I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
    3. Re:Libraries of Congress measurement by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Fragmentation is a problem on hard drives because seek time is so high. This is a non-problem with solid-state storage. So just don't defragment.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  55. Not a waste, a sensible intermediary step by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 1

    If you're about to redesign the hardware from scratch, then this stuff should just go into the RAM slots. But given the choice between "wait five years for a bus and OS redesign" and "get a SCSI drive right now that Really Screams, that goes in your normal HD slot and plays nice with your legacy OS", the latter would be the sensible business decision.

    (disclaimer: my h/w knowledge is not vast, I picked SCSI as a widely-adopted standard for ultra fast HDs; if there's a better one, assume I said that instead)

  56. not only to replace RAM... by caino59 · · Score: 1

    but this would be great to use for mass storage, and get rid of those hard drives with moveable parts.

    mmmm...solid state hard drives ;o)

  57. Materials lead technology by tacocat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First, I have to confess that I am a Materials Engineer and not some ubergeek with a CSE degree.

    But it's a definite fact that technological advances are only made possible with the precedence of metallurgical advances.

    Silicon wafers today wouldn't exist without the metallurgical backing to create high purity Silicon, Aluminum, and so on.

    The point being that with the discovery of the buckey ball, we are entering a new age of history. We're not there, but we're working on it really hard.

    Before you toss me out as flamebait consider that each primary age of human civilization is named as a metallurgical Age: Bronze, Iron, Steel. Some might argue that we are in the Silicon Age right now. However, the impact of Silicon is not as ubiquitious as the impact of the discovery of Bronze, Iron, or Steel.

    But the Buckey Ball is going to be similar in the scope of impact as Steel or Iron. Why?

    • Structural Materials
    • Electronics
    • Optics
    • Aerospace
    It's a FUNDAMENTALLY new material product available for the engineers to play with.
    1. Re:Materials lead technology by captain+igor · · Score: 1

      Has anyone heard anything about the superconductive properties of these things? Just wondering...

  58. SRAM by ahfoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So far everybody is missing the point including the Economist article. This stuff would replace SRAM. High performance FPGAs from Xilinx and Altera are made of SRAM with refresh in the neighborhood of ten nanoseconds. This would make vast and fast FPGAs possible.
    So, instead of merely replacing system RAM or storage this would replace the CPU, the memory controllers, the video card, the sound card --it would be the ultimate SoC platform.

    1. Re:SRAM by afidel · · Score: 1

      With a max speed of 1Ghz it won't be replacing many cpu's.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    2. Re:SRAM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Okay Jr. sit down and let's have a talk. Ya see son, that P4 super whiz bang game machine you're sitting at right now has a clock speed of 66Mhz. Yup, no kiddin. What them ol wizards up at Intel done did is ta multiply the clock. Pretty tricky eh? That's why they get the big bucks.
      What this article was talking about when it used the word "speed" wasn't an arbitrary marketing gimmick like "clock speed" to sell overheated toys to kids like you but the speed of the data refresh.
      SRAM like you have in your P4 super game machine as cache currently can refresh at 10ns. This stuff would blow your quote 3Ghz Intel machine out of the water.

  59. good by ram period by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

    with this tech we can store the data in a place that is directly accesable by the CPU...no buffers, no caching, nothing!!!

    just pop in the storage block and the CPU will access it faster than it does current ram.

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  60. with this operating systems will change for ever!! by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the memory manager and the part of the device manager than manages the hard drive will be one unit!!!

    so to get full potential from this we will have to redesign our OSs otherwise if we stick it in the current system it will be a fraction of its potential.

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  61. Can I claim prior art? by hobit · · Score: 2, Interesting
    --
    As Nietsche famously said, "If you stare too long into the Abyss, 1d4 Tanar'ri of random type will attack you."
    1. Re:Can I claim prior art? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
      What's amazing is the detail that patent examiners go to make sure that the patent is correct.

      Look at the fifth-to-last word of the Abstract:

      The nanoscale memory devices combine high switching speed, high packing density and stability with non0volatility of the stored data.

      Yeah, I know, I'm a grammar nazi right now but this is important legalese! There is no definition of "non0volatility".

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  62. assuming for the moment this comes to pass... by awb131 · · Score: 1

    If operating system and application developers didn't have to worry (much) about volatile RAM or slow disks anymore, it would radically change the kind of software that is needed (and possible.)

    What sorts of applications can you envision for a handheld device with several TB of storage and a battery life of around 24 hours? Or a laptop with several hundred. Or a workgroup server with several thousand. What kind of new operating systems would we need? How could the average application developer begin to prepare for such a possibility?

    I'm serious. I'd like to know what sorts of things would suddenly change, and what sould suddenly become possible, if this kind of tech was actually affordable in, say, 5 years.

    --
    "There is no night so forlorn, no mood so bleak, that it cannot be infused with pleasure by tender meat..." - R.W. Apple
    1. Re:assuming for the moment this comes to pass... by cyberman11 · · Score: 1

      A digita video camera with a one-year recording time.

    2. Re:assuming for the moment this comes to pass... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. Nobody will ever need more than 640K of RAM.

    3. Re:assuming for the moment this comes to pass... by voodoo1man · · Score: 1

      Well, I imagine it would be the end of virtual memory systems as we know them. This could make operating systems drastically easier to write, and will hopefully (but I don't think likely) lead the re-birth of persistent "world" operating systems like the Smalltalk virtual machine and Genera. At least this type of memory will finally make it practical to keep all computers on all the time, and so there would be a very strong incentive to move away from Windows and Unix-style systems to something more persistent.

      --

      In the great CONS chain of life, you can either be the CAR or be in the CDR.

  63. still won't be that fast. by rebelcool · · Score: 1
    SCSI operates at a few megahertz. its a very slow and rapidly aging bus. Its generally thought of as 'fast' because its fast when you're dealing with mechanical drives and accessories.

    If this new ram were to be added on to current systems, it would likely be in the form of a PCI add-in card. That's still a bottleneck, but nowhere near as slow as using a bus spec for mechanical subsystems.

    --

    -

    1. Re:still won't be that fast. by putaro · · Score: 1

      Hard drives are slow at seeking - in moving data they're moderately quick and SCSI is designed to support multiple drives per bus, moving data simultaneously. Ultra SCSI 320 moves data at 320 MB/sec - what's slow about that? "Standard" (33 MHz, 32 bit) PCI tops out at 133 MB/s. PCI-X at 1GB/s would be a fine thing, but isn't really available yet.

  64. The thing I worry about... by Wolfrider · · Score: 3, Interesting

    --When components start getting this small, the chances of having an potential error occur go WAY up. What I'd be interested to see, is what they're doing to protect against stuff like cosmic-ray bit pollution and such.

    --After all, if the scale is NANO, one cosmic ray or stray electro/magnetic field can potentially screw up a lot more percentage of memory... Massive redundancy, high speed and constant bit cross-checking would seem to be a reasonable requirement for these chips.

    --For just one example, look what a few scratches can do to a CDR - or worse, a DVD. If you can't read it (use it reliably XMillion times) it's basically not very useful...

    --
    .
    == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
    1. Re:The thing I worry about... by kwerle · · Score: 1, Insightful

      --When components start getting this small, the chances of having an potential error occur go WAY up. What I'd be interested to see, is what they're doing to protect against stuff like cosmic-ray bit pollution and such.

      Why do you say that? Any evidence to back that up?

      --After all, if the scale is NANO, one cosmic ray or stray electro/magnetic field can potentially screw up a lot more percentage of memory... Massive redundancy, high speed and constant bit cross-checking would seem to be a reasonable requirement for these chips.

      Actually, the article (or related) says that multiple tubes are moved for each bit, which supplies some redundency. But when you get right down to it, let's say you use about 75% of any given chip for parity (Obviously a ridiculous amount - I believe that's a Hamming distance of 11-12 assuming you added the redundancy by the byte (you could correct 30% bit errors in any byte); see also http://www.personal.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpp/ecc.html) . That's still 250Gb, or 30 GIGABYTES/cm^2.

      Let's do a little more reverse math. I'll say we want to have 2GB RAM (tops for most of today's desktops). Let's say we don't bother with error correction at all. You'd need a spec of memory ... 1/60 of a cm^2. That's .02cm^2, right? Which is about 1.4mm x 1.4mm. And it's fast. And it's NVRAM. I'm willing to take a hit and add some space for redundency.

      --For just one example, look what a few scratches can do to a CDR - or worse, a DVD. If you can't read it (use it reliably XMillion times) it's basically not very useful...

      I seldom take my RAM out of my machine and scratch it.

  65. What about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    holographic memory?

    Holographic memory offers the possibility of storing 1 terabyte (TB) of data in a sugar-cube-sized crystal.

    I believe it is closer to production than carbon based memory and every bit as fast. These devices could have storage capacities of 1 TB and data rates of more than 1 GB per second -- fast enough to transfer an entire DVD movie in 30 seconds.

    Maybe we're getting closer to those cigarette pack-sized storage units we saw on the original Star Trek series.

  66. Nantero!! by UnixRevolution · · Score: 1

    I can see their theme song now...

    Little Tubes, big adventures, Nan-nan-Nantero!!

    --
    You like your new Mac more than you like me, don't you, Dave? Dave? I asked...She said Yes.
  67. Ok thats it...maybe? by ratfynk · · Score: 1
    I wonder if investing in a technology that will replace humans is a good idea.
    Enactment of Asimovs' three laws of robotics are what is needed, now!
    Before our self-replicating AI creates nano tube DNA and evolves into replacements for Lawyers and Politician.


    The evolution process will be accelerated by the fact that the earliest nano tube based life will be able to evolve at rates that the human mind cannot concieve.


    If our religiuos view of armagedon is right then perhaps we are doomed to be eliminated by our own creation.


    The New Tech Bible, Genesis 2.0 vs 1 Worship ye the NonoTech, for the Law is given by those chosen to replace thee.

    --
    OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
  68. Encryption? I doubt it. by cryptor3 · · Score: 1

    I'm going to assume you don't mean encrypt the RAM before shutdown, since instead of doing that, you could just wipe it, which would be more secure and less trouble.

    So you plan to encrypt and decrypt every word accessed in the memory? How do you plan to do that? Use a stream cipher? (e.g., RC4) You can't do that, because it's random access, meaning you can't just string data together as it comes in.

    Use a block cipher? (AES, DES, etc.) Sorry, simple frequency analysis will crack that. And you can't use cipher block chaining or anything like that, because once again since data is randomly accessed.

    Encryption is generally meant for stream data, not single blocks.

  69. Insightless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The slowest part of the processor pipeline will determine the maximum clock frequency. If the slowest part of the processor can do it's assigned job (taking some data from some flip-flops, doing something with it and storing it another set of flip-flops) in 1ns, then the maximum clock frequency you can run the CPU at is 1/1ns = 1GHz.

    Of course you can send in any clock you like, but anything faster and the processor stops working correctly.

    So if you care about the computer actually working, clock speed has everything to do with the longest (slowest) part of the pipe!

  70. Microsoft... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...must be relieved, because doubtless Word '05 will require a terrabyte of memory in order for the luckless punter to write a letter to his mum.

  71. Been Done by tres3 · · Score: 1
    A la X-box.

    This is what Micro$oft is trying to do with the hardware encryption in the X-box and just as soon in Palladium as Bill can get the chip manufacturers to produce the needed hardware components. If the chip vendors are cool about it we could end up with a system that's open enough for GNU/Linux to use to secure the data it contains. Obviously they won't be able to read each others data or work the same way but if the standard is open and published I'm sure some ingenious kernel hacker will come up with a driver that allows for Ultra Secure GNU/Linux Server platforms. And lest we not forget the varios flavors of BSD, OpenVMS, etc..

  72. Excellent Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I only hope those with the ability will design truly new software systems that will take complete advantage of the new physical systems, and not just apply old methods to it. Inefficient designs of old technologies applied to new technologies have a way of sticking around long after the loss of efficiency is apparent (qwerty layout of typewriters on computers, reversed number pads on keyboards and phones, - only two things to pop into my head at this hour). The parent post is correct in that CPU, sound card, video card, etc. can be replaced, but what are the possible paths of information to human interfaces? And what are other possible human interface designs? And what about the basics; does it still make sense to group binary into bytes of 8 bits? The possibilities are not just "thinking outside the box", it is realizing that you are no longer working with a "box" at all.

    1. Re:Excellent Point by ahfoo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and while SRAM isn't mentione in the Economist piece of the blurb on EETimes, their home page says right up front that SRAM is one of the main targets.
      I hadn't seen that when I first posted so I wasn't sure. Now I'm even more interested. I mean there's little argument that programmable logic is the future of chip design and this would be a revolutionary leap in that direction.
      Besides the technological implications, consider the political --ASIC make semi a paradise niche for monopolies. With this technology we'd begin to see open source hardware IP cores really take off. This of course would reflect back on the software market. Interesting times ahead, but that was true either way. This would just speed things up. And then there's the hypercompuing side. This is definitely an intriguing news blurb.

  73. So much hype by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem they have solved "Using electron beam lithography to remove misaligned clusters" is not a viable production solution.

    Electron beam epitaxy has been around for years promising very fine detail etching, but unless something wonderful has happened in the last couple of years its still a lab-only technique, or one that can be used for one-off wafer runs.

    Personally I'd put my money with (Ovonyx - see also Ovonics the parent company) who've been working with Intel for at least two years to productionize their technology - also offering non-volatile, nano-second read/write access and potentially high density memories.

  74. They got their fullerenes mixed up by Fredbo · · Score: 2, Informative

    A fullerene is a certain class of carbon molecules that have a tubular or spherical form. The Buckminsterfullerene, or "buckyball" refers to the specific spherical C60 fullerine (shaped like a football). All other non spherical molecules (eg tubular) are just referred to as fullerenes.

    1. Re:They got their fullerenes mixed up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've also seen nanotubes referred to as "buckytubes," but certainly not fullerenes, that's the sperical family of molecules.

      There are lots of stories about technology which can increase memory density, but it turns out that it's just about a uniform film, in a research lab being probed with an STM, at low temperature, or some such thing. Actual working, commericial devices require much more work (and luck and money, etc).

    2. Re:They got their fullerenes mixed up by Fredbo · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, the spherical is the buckminsterfullerene, fullerene refers to all of the types of molecules, spherical or tubular or other.

  75. removable storage by Crag · · Score: 1

    Use a USB or firewire attached storage space for critical data. Attach the storage to user's belt so if they walk away from the machine they take the critical data with them.

  76. Expense of the processed nanotubes? by digital+photo · · Score: 1

    I thought nanotube material was prohibitively expensive? Something like on the order of thousands of dollars per gram produced?

  77. Re:Encryption? I doubt it. by Repugnant_Shit · · Score: 1

    If you want to save the state I guess you could encrypt it. But then I guess it'd be easier to save it to an encrypted disk, then wipe it.

  78. Re:Cool, but... caliphate of death by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes. He wants to know because he is a terrorist and needs to know if this will survive the various environments he wants to create in US population centers.

    Since you are a typical Islamofascist sympathizer and only know enough to destroy, you have no idea about the physics of such a discovery. Your ridiculous questions wouldn't even be considered by the people making this technology.

    Various forms of shielding can be developed for electronics. But there is a limit. Why? ELECTRONics. It all comes down to quantum states of electrons (when considering the realm of normal electromagnetics or chemical or ionic bonding, nuclear forces and nuclear integrity and gravitation play roles on the ultra small and ultra large scales - so lets consider only classical solid state physics for this discussion). Radiation causes electrons to change state. Light (photoelectric sensitivity, some EEPROMs are erasable by light). Heat (thermodynamic properties). Anything that changes the energy level of an electron is capable of interference. So I don't know what fucking universe you want to live in, but your best bet is to start with a faraday cage and start isolating the power source and ground from "the outside world."

    But your clitoris chopping terrorist supporting scum bag self can't be bothered to learn that much serving Allah in his satanic quest. For understanding such things might lead to reason, and reason would cause you to reject the cult you belong to. For you, really, learning of science would be admitting that your camel riding puke shit backward culture sucks shit, and our space program, the Hubble, the Moonshot, and various other things are the way for the human race to survive the ages, not your fucking corrupt religion and your false pagan "God" Minat/"Allah", your false prophet who cant tell the difference between Satan and God in conversation. Our God is anti-death, progress. Your God is clitoris chopping Sharia women suppressing murdering thugs.

    Your infected, sick disgusting self is a plague on humanity, and your foul intentions and your murderous cult brethren will be discovered and stop in mid flight, we will snipe you as your start your actions against us. We know we must wait to catch you in the act, and we will. We will not allow another Malvo to get a running start - maybe bastards like him will get one of us, but no more than that.

    You chose this. You will be exposed terrorist sympathizer facilitator.

    Your false prophet, Mohammed, is a man who was born to a human a pig. His father was a pig and his mother was a human, and pig DNA and immune system is possibly close enough to allow a pig fucking bitch like Mohammed mother to conceive.